#Norse mythology and Greek mythology I take very seriously | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

chaos-bites · 5 months

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Hello! I was wondering if you have any tips for someone interested in practicing both Hellenic and Norse/Heathen polytheism.

I’m interested in both but am unsure how to go about incorporating heathenry into my pre-existing Greco-Roman based practices

Hey there, Nonny, thank you for the interesting ask! (Adding "read more" due to length)

When it comes to worshipping multiple pantheons, just in general, I feel it's always important to first address your beliefs on multiple pantheons. Are you Omnist, where you believe there is truth to every religion just about? Are you a syncretist, where you believe there is only one or a few pantheons and the gods simply go under different names? These sorts of beliefs are important to address before moving forward, as it can heavily impact your practice, depending on what answer you come up with.

Outside of all that, I think the biggest thing is doing research on ancient Norse history, culture, and religion. My friend, @broomsick , has a lot of great resources on historical Heathen practices. They are one of the most well-read people I've ever spoken to regarding this topic and they can answer just about any question you have, from what I've both seen and experienced. I highly recommend asking them for resources on ancient Norse heathen culture and religion. There, unfortunately, is not nearly as much information about Norse mythology as there is about Greek mythology, mostly due to the fact that it was a largely verbal practice for the Norse and they didn't write things down often, but with the information we do have, you can at least learn a little bit about what culture and religion were like for Norse heathens.

A big thing to pay attention to while researching is differences in culture. For the ancient Greeks, culture massively impacted their practices and worship, and I would not doubt that the ancient Norse heathens were the same way, in that regard. Understanding the ancient culture will aid you significantly in also understanding the Norse deities that came from said culture (this is also true for Greek gods, or any pantheon, really). It will give you a better idea of how to approach them and even what may be considered taboo. A good example is that oaths were a HUGE thing in ancient Norse culture. To break an oath would be to become an oath-breaker, and that is the absolute WORST thing anyone could possibly be (maybe with some exceptions). Within ancient Greek culture, oaths are not held to the same standard. While it's certainly not a good thing to break oaths and promises, it wouldn't make you into someone that could never be trusted again, nor would it likely see you shunned for the rest of your days. The ancient Norse took oaths far more seriously than the ancient Greeks which is a notable difference in their cultures; this tells you that Norse gods will likely take oathing much more seriously and may be stricter about maintaining any oaths you make.

On top of all this, respect the fact that these deities come from separate histories. Even if you decide you are a syncretist, it is still important to respect that these deities were, at one point, separately worshipped by very different communities with varying beliefs. The only thing I recommend with this is to simply acknowledge it as a fact and respect it in your heart. I've found that acknowledging this has been beneficial to me, as it helps me to remember that the Norse deities likely expect different treatment from me than those of my Greek deities, or that they were at least treated differently in the ancient past.

Another thing to keep in mind, and something I've noticed, is that epithets don't seem to be as big of a thing in Norse heathenry. I still very much use them, and I see other modern worshippers doing the same, but overall, I have noticed that epithets don't seem to carry the same weight, at least not for the same reasons. As I said, they are still used, but rather than invoking a hyper-specific aspect of that deity or identifying who you are specifically speaking of, it seems that Norse deity epithets are meant more as respect and acknowledgement of a deity's power and status. Odin the All-father, Loki the Father of Lies, Freyr the Great General of the Gods - to me, these seem to acknowledge the power, accomplishments and status of these deities rather than their specific domains and aspects. Naturally, there are Norse epithets that acknowledge specific aspects, but knowing what I know of ancient Norse culture, I feel it is more with the intentions that I described above.

One last point I'd like to make is that I often see this stereotype floating around the pagan community that Norse deities are hyper-serious, especially in comparison to other pantheons (specifically in comparison to the Greek pantheon). This is, as mentioned, just a stereotype. Frankly, the Norse deities I've encountered have all been extremely kind, patient, understanding, and, believe it or not, fun to be around. Thor, for example, gave me this awesome "big brother" energy when I first encountered him. I felt like I could be myself and joke around easily with him. As another example, Loki has been tons of fun for me. They know how to cheer me up when I'm sad and have been an extremely comforting presence in my life. Of course, different deities will react differently, as is true for even different people, but overall, I find this weird ass stereotype to be entirely false, and I'm unsure where it stems from. You have nothing to be worried about when it comes to the supposed "hyper-sternness" of Norse deities.

I feel that's all the advice I can give without making this far longer than it already is. Genuinely, I advise seeking out @broomsick ; I know I mentioned them before, but they have been a massive help to me in my own personal journey with Norse deities. Remember that, regardless of the panteon, I always recommend being yourself with your deities and worshipping in a way that makes you feel comfortable. You don't have to be extremely serious and formal, if that doesn't make you happy. You also don't have to be extremely loose and informal, if that doesn't make you happy. Worship in the way that makes you comfortable because, just as with ancient Greece, many Norse clans (hope that's the correct term) worshipped differently from one another, and there were often contradicting beliefs between them all. There is no one way to worship or one correct answer; there is no set of rules you MUST follow. Worship the way you wish; it is your practice, after all, and no one else's.

Have a great day/night, and please take care, Nonny! Again, I hope this helps! 💚🖤

#norse paganism #norse pagan #hellenic pagan #deity worship #anon asks #answered asks #holy fuck i made this really long my bad 💀

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thorraborinn · 1 year

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I know you've written about the Gullveig/Freyja theory but I keep seeing the equation of Angrboða with the witch whose heart Loki ate according to Voluspa hin Skama and both of them being equated with Gullveig. I want to know where this idea comes from. I mostly see it on FB in the Norse Gods Discussion Group and a couple Lokean groups {although, not as much anymore}. I honestly think this is just too much of a leap in logic. I know Genevieve Gornichec put Angrboða as Gullveig in her book, but I'm not sure if she equated them with the heart eating thing. I didn't read it.

I'm asking because I've been looking for good fiction about Norse mythology but keep running into the idea that Loki is an abusive husband but also that killed his mistress and ate her heart, which kinda doesn't make sense to me because why wouldn't he have just slept with her if he wanted more children or whatever.

I'm going to stick to Greek or Egyptian mythology based fiction like ENNEAD for now, whilst looking for good Norse ones.

The first author that I know of to describe Gullveig/Heiðr, Angrboða, and the heart into a single figure is the 19th century Swedish author Viktor Rydberg (he also included Aurboða and Hyrrokkin in this complex). Rydberg was convinced that there was a single original epic narrative that was shared by all the Germanic-speaking peoples, and that myths, legends, and folklore of Germanic Europe was made up of the decayed, corrupted fragments of it. He also believed that he knew how to put it back together, sometimes even borrowing from non-Germanic narratives.

In order to make that make sense, a lot of his work is very preoccupied with merging different figures together, because he can't really allow any loose ends. His work is also characterized by a fairly strict polarity between the gods (unambiguously good) and their enemies (unambiguously bad) which, to be fair, was not uncommon among scholars in his day. He had some things to say that were important for the 19th century, but his work should not be taken seriously today.

He does still have a small but very prolific following among modern heathens including the authors of the so-called "Asatru Edda" and whoever runs www.germanicmythology.com.

I'm not sure if more recent Lokean/Rökkratrú theorizing about Gullveig/Heiðr and Angrboða is related to Viktor Rydberg or not. I could imagine that the sort of Þursatrú/Nordic Satanism types might have some things in common with the Rydberg-inspired heathens, taking the same black-and-white, hardline good-vs-evil view, but siding with the opposing team, and being favorable toward the Gullveig/Angrboða/Aurboða/Hyrrokkin complex; and then this could filter into other Lokean or Rökkatrú spaces. To me, the burnt heart seems to point to Rydberg. I don't think that Völuspá in skamma gives an impression that the heart that Loki eats belongs to Angrboða. Rydberg only came to that conclusion by inserting Völuspá into the context of Völuspá in skamma, so that Angrboða is mentioned as the mother of Fenrir, then is burnt (as Gullveig), then the burnt heart is eaten before she's resurrected. I find this pretty unintuitive, and unlikely to be thought of twice independently of each other, but I could be wrong.

On the other hand, sometimes ideas just go into circulation without anyone knowing where they come from, not thinking to question it. It's possibly that Rydberg was the ultimate origin of this, but that nobody spreading the idea knows it.

There are also a lot of heathens who worship Angrboða, but since she's only mentioned by name once in all of Norse mythology (twice if you count Snorri, but it seems like he's working from Völuspá in skamma, so it's probably just the first reference again), it seems natural to look for traces of her elsewhere. Merging her with other figures like Gullveig/Heiðr might be a way of adapting other lore so that their goddess has more written about her.

As an aside, if a figure from Völuspá is to be identified with Angrboða, I would expect it to be the unnamed in aldna í Járnviði, whose children are "Fenrir's kind."

I'm not really very familiar with Lokean groups or even really Facebook heathenry in general anymore, so it's very possible I'm missing some things. I don't really know anything about Norse mythology-inspired fiction.

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baeddel · 1 year

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i understand that it's quite silly to complain about some part of something so unsystematic and arbitrary, but Liber 777 (Crowley's big list of symbolic correspondences) does not include Fortuna in its list of Roman gods, nor Tyche in its list of Greek gods. this seems like a remarkable omission to me. right away, the Wheel of Fortune (which is derived from medieval Fortuna iconography) from the tarot list is necessarily mispaired. it's placed in position 21 and therefore pairs with Zeus and Jupiter in the Greek and Roman tables, and with Amun-Ra on the Egyptian tables—the lords of the heavens. what is the basis of that correspondence? of course it really needs to be with Fortuna and Tyche and, once you include them, Isis, who was syncretized with Fortuna in the Roman world.

another complaint: the Scandanavian list does not include Skaði or Iðunn. the only goddesses are Freyja and Frigg, who are made to fill roles which aren't appropriate to them. Freyja appears at 7 and 14, the same as Aphrodite. Crowley obviously thinks of Freyja as the Norse Aphrodite. i believe he thinks that because they are both women. apart from that, what do they have in common? i think it makes the most sense to pair Aphrodite with Baldr, since his stories revolve around his beauty. Freyja is a goddess of war, but in a very specifically Germanic sense, as a chooser of the slain. she is not appropriate to pair with Ares, who makes war, nor really with Hera, who is more like Skaði, the huntress (Iðunn can be Persephone, since they both get kidnapped and handle fruit)—she is more like a fate. well, today i read an article (click) which argues that Freyja has an association with ships: her hall, Sessrúmnir, is listed as a famous ship in the Prose Edda. they spin this into an argument that Freyja is the "Isis of Suebi" mentioned in Tacitus' Germania who is associated with ship symbolism. if this is the case, Tacitus has provided the attribution for us; Fortuna-Isis, the blind, inarticulate virgin who holds the rudder, is our unlikely correspondence for Freyja.

oh, and don't take this post too seriously—you probably shouldn't think about mythology in this esotericist way. we are as intersted in the differences between characters as we are their similarities. there isn't really an equivalent of Scandanavia's female dooms anywhere else in the world, and while it's interesting to think about Fortuna and Freyja's combined associations with fate, fertility and fortune, Fortuna has nothing to do with the slain and Freyja has nothing to do with chance. i just had to get it out of my system.

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aikoiya · 2 months

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Portrayal of Deities in Fanfics

I'm getting the impression that not a lot of people on this site actually know how to portray deities in fiction.

I've seen fans who interpret deities as not needing sleep, not needing food, not drinking alcohol, not understanding sickness, not having sex.

I was just reading a fic where it was stated that deities really only have an understanding of whatever falls under their domain &...

I may not be an expert on theology by any stretch of the imagination... but I know enough about Greek, Japanese, & Norse mythology to know that at least a few of these things aren't the case.

For one, Ganymede is the wine-waiter of the gods. And Hestia is known for cooking Ambrosia, the food of the gods. And the Æsir were known to hold great feasts in the halls of Asgard & drank like sailors. And I'm pretty damn sure that Susano-o was known for his love of embibements & Ukemochi is literally a goddess of food & so is Hestia for that matter. Persephone ate the seeds of a pomegranate to be tied to Hades. Hell, Dionysus was the god of wine & whenever he wasn't asleep, he was almost guaranteed to be effing wasted!

And Hypnos & Thanatos are often depicted as 2 sleeping youths. And during the Trojan War, Hypnos induced Zeus to sleep.

As for sex, Greek mythology is absolutely rife with stories of the gods of Olympus's sexual escapades. I mean, how else do you think so many demi-gods came about? A bunch of which belong to Zeus the fuckboy! Seriously, man, Zeus, the literal king of the gods in Greek myth, seems to be absolutely incapable of keeping it in his toga!

So, I have zero clue where the idea that pagan gods don't do these things comes from. I certainly don't know of any myths where a deity is portrayed as specifically not needing to do these things.

Also, the idea that gods only have knowledge of what falls under the umbrella of its patronage especially makes no sense.

Like, what do fans think they do all day? Do they believe that these dudes just have no lives?? Think about it, ya'll!

Let's take gods of war, for instance. There's not always gonna be a war taking place. So, when it isn't & these deities do nothing but their domain, then that makes it seem like they're basically just robots who go on standby until it's time to accomplish their directive.

Honestly, I hope that these ideas are just a means to drum up drama or bring in comedy.

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's funny. It's just very contradictory to all the mythology I know is all.

Like, I get the desire to want to show deities as being 'alien' & 'incomprehensible to mortal minds' & 'not working the same way that humans do,' but you have to remember that in a lot of ways, deities in myth are kind of like representations of culture. In certain ways, they even embody it. And one of the most integral parts of culture is food.

Just get creative.

Aikoiya's Writing Tips Masterlist

#writing #fanfiction #theology #mythology #greek mythology #norse mythology #japanese mythology

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magical-girl-brainrot · 2 months

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Tell us about your mythology magical girl projects

I WOULD LOVE TO TELL YOU ABOUT MY MYTHOLOGY MAGICAL GIRLS.

so i got four stories. one with a greek theme, one with a norse theme, one with an arthurian legend theme, and one with a angel theme

the greek one goes a little something like this: due to Turn Of Events. a handful of souls of greek myth's great heroes get taken from the underworld and reincarnated into modern magical girl age range girls. Athena tracks them down to make em do stuff for her because she's Planning Shit and her age old foes are out to get her ass. also her brother Ares is out to get her ass. cue funnies and The Horrors.

the norse one deals with Loki getting let out of prison early! only because Odin needs him to go deal with some problems for him and Loki becomes a magical girl about it. also Thor and Odin end up as magical girls too. power trio! there's a fucked up wizard in this!

the Arthurian myth one deals with a handful of the round table knights and Guinevere being reincarnated and Arthur himself- getting his tomb in Avalon broken into by a bastard in yellow and being cursed to be a little girl about it. cue the once and future king having to deal with being a magical girl in the modern day and getting his knights together and them not taking him seriously because they're teenagers who don't remember shit and Arthur is the team baby now.

the angel one deals with the Archangels, sons/servants of the Thinking Machine being sent out of it's domain and turned into human women. they've been given a mission with very little details and most of the story is them trying to figure out how to people and doing magical girl shit.

might make more, because i do love mythology stuff. but this is what i got for now!

#magical girls #magical girl story #magical girl idea #greek heroes turned magical girls #norse trio #arthurian magical girls #angel magical girls #asks

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moondust-bard · 1 year

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OC Name Meanings

@tananaphone tagged me!

Rules: share the name of an OC— or OCs— and tell us what this name means

I’m tagging @darthenra @moonandris @isabellebissonrouthier @midnights-call @garthcelyn @sleepyowlwrites

I’m going to be introducing you to the six PoV girls from Lost Souls’ Night Saga. As a rule, I take the choosing of my characters’ names very seriously. I use names to sneak in kernels of foreshadowing, draw connections to important symbols, hint at a character’s cultural background, and allude to mythology and folklore.

Phreya

Look, we both know I basically just changed the spelling of the name Freyja. This name, made famous by the norse goddess of love and fertility, means something along the lines of “noble lady”.

Wynifer

This one I totally made up after scouring the web for older British names, all in hopes of finding a pair that would suit two very different twin sisters. It’s similar in tone to the welsh Gwenhwyfar— or Guinevere— which was popularized by the tales of King Arthur. The first syllable means something like “white” or “fair”, and the second means “fairy” or “spirit”.

Druscylla

Again, I took a name with roman and latin origins and spelled it slightly differently. Drusilla means “strong”. Julia Drusilla, the favorite sister of Caligula, was just one who bore this name.

Rheannen

Are we seeing a theme? Once again, I took a name— this time, the Welsh name Rhiannon— and spelled it in a way that fits the world I’m building. It means “divine queen” or “great queen”. I first heard it while listening to Fleetwood Mac during my childhood, and I’ve loved it ever since. Rhiannon is also the name of a Celtic goddess.

Lethe

This name, greek in origin, means oblivion. A river in Hades’ underworld is called the Lethe. Those who bathe in the Lathe find their memory washed clean.

Stellena

This name is inspired by the names “Stella” and “Stellen”. It has latin, old french, and Germanic origins. Some meanings include “star” and “peaceful”.

#tag game #my characters

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freelancearsonist · 2 years

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Hello there Clarke!

Congratulations upon reaching 3K followers!! 🎉🎉🎉 Here's to many more followers to come and to the thots you bless our feed with everyday 🥂🥂🥂

I'd like to request for a ship, if you're still doing those and if it's not too much of a bother? 🥺

My nickname is Sonya, I'm a little shy of 5'3 and on the curvier side. Tanned with chocolate brown eyes and shoulder length blackish-brown hair. I love watching crime dramas and sitcoms as well as reading historical fiction and mythology retellings. Soft spoken and an introvert by nature but pretty sarcastic and lively once I warm up to someone. I've always preferred thunderstorms and drizzle to sunny weather and autumn to summer. Love wisteria and the scent of cinnamon in particular. I constantly struggle with overthinking and anxiety, plus I'm deathly scared of heights and the dark (really silly, I know). Just a huge nerd (Marvel, Star Wars, Doctor Who, you name it) who's really into Egyptian, Greek and Norse mythology.

No pressure though, thank you so much love ❤️

oh i ship you with orestes 🥺

he would love learning everything about mythology with you 🥺 he definitely shares your love for reading and takes your fears very seriously (and does everything he can to make you feel safe and comfortable with him)

#clarke’s 3k celebration

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myuni-moon · 2 years

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i feel like the overprotective members of the self aware genshin cult would be very easily frustrated with me cause i’ll be doing one of four things:

1) whining about being bored

2) being incredibly flirty and making lots of random and/or cheesy pickup lines

3) making references that no one would understand and getting frustrated (pop culture, greek/japanese/norse/egyptian mythology, shakespeare, musicals, other video games, manga/anime references)

4) being a chaotic little shit (bending spoons, stealing random small accessories from people, sneaking out of the teapot (attempting to), spooking people, telling over exaggerated stories about the ‘real’ world, being clumsy because i have two left feet unless i’m actively trying to function properly, speak spanish or polish, ignore people, just refusing to talk because it’s a no bones day, etc)

yours truly,

gremlin anon

and here are their reactions!

1.) they'll give you things to do if you want, puzzles or games. if you beg enough, you might be able to do some relatively safe science experiments with albedo. your schedule is changed up here and there just to make sure you won't get bored.

2.) they can and will take it seriously, particularly the archons and those connected to the abyss. they'll all try to one-up the other by keeping track of who you flirt with and how many times it has happened.

3.) for some reason, characters that are relatively young such as xingqiu, fischl, bennett, chongyun, and the like all somewhat get it. the only person who actually gets it is albedo since he's the only one who can tap into most of the features on your device, including web browsers!

4.) zhongli's back is threatening to break, but he'll be fine with it as long as you're happy

#myuni answers #au.cult #gremlin anon

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antiloreolympus · 2 years

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10 Anti LO Asks

1. Pretty much every LO critic is also Anti PJO lmao. Just because PJO fans also dislike LO doesn't mean its critics do too.

2. the creator of covenant literally went viral several times over her dynamic takes on harley quinn and poison ivy to where several big name media sources were praising it and saying DC should pick them for their own and yet DC would rather use their WT partnership to give RS a one shot to shit on the gods once again that was so insignificant even the DC wiki doesn't link to it, despite them doing it for every modern comic issue and anthology they have. someone make it make sense.

3. i just love RS' comment of she'd NEVER do a Norse mythology comic because it's "too popular". ya know, because when you think of unknown mythology you think GREEK MYTHOLOGY. she probably instead knows she doesnt have a popular ship in it to force her weird cishet fantasies onto so that's why she wouldn't touch it (though at the very least Baldur/Hel is a far more interesting dynamic with a looser mythology to make up whatever you want than than HxP does, but why would RS know that?)

4. I do not get why LO has SO MANY characters in it. I was looking at a tier list for it and it had over as 100 different characters (not that you could tell, some of them are copy pasted faces) but seriously, why do they need SO many? Even just limiting it to only the characters in the hymn + the olympians it would only be about maybe 20 characters, which is more than enough, yet Rachel keeps adding more and more, which ironically end up taking away from time that should be used for HxP!

5. superman is probably the only character that is required to have a massive barrel chest but of course rachel doesn't give him that for??? reasons?? and wonder woman is another doe eyed skinny teenager?? im not even touching "circe" thats literally just her friend from art school and im not joking you can check her twitter and see theyre exactly the same. how uncreative is this woman.

6. "why doesnt rachel do LO in black and white? it'd look so much better!" because she can't design characters to save her life so she needs the colors to tell anyone apart, that's why. go on, turn your laptop or phone's color to black and white and pull up a random LO episode and try and tell anyone apart when the colors are gone and see how it goes. I promise you it wouldn't be a fun exercise.

7. TBH I would be totally cool with Eris as Zeus and Hera's daughter in LO if it weren't for the fact she's randomly designed EXACTLY like Nyx is?? Like you can get where she's going with the designs then just yanks the wheel in a random direction and thinks she's clever for it. I don't get it??

8. I get it's a Webtoon thing to have the men be all muscled but the LO men just look uncomfortable, you know what I mean? Their bodies are way too big for their heads (where are my lanky and chubby kings) and I don't see how it's supposed to be attractive. I get the same way with the women being cartoonishly hourglass shaped with their backs broken into an S. It's like RS is trying to be "sexy" but is doing in a way that it looks like satire of oversexualization, but it's supposed to be serious 💀

9. do LO fans want us to critique PJO too? Because I know I certainly have a lot to say about it. Where to start, the racism? Making the Greek gods reject Greece for America? The cringey humor? Framing Ares as wrong for defending his daughter from sexual assault? The list goes on. If anything LO fans should love PJO, it has many of the same issues it does too that they love to defend.

10. WHY ARE THE LO BOOK COVERS ONLY GETTING MORE BORING I DONT GET IT

#anti lo #anti lore olympus #lo critical #lore olympus critical

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lesserfandomappreciation · 3 years

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Ariadne and why the Mycenaeans can fuck right off

Warning: Includes brief mentions of r*pe, cultural destruction, ancient patriarchy reminding us why no woman would ever time-travel more than 5 years into the past if that and a great deal of spite for male historians/public education history/mythology classes.

Possible side effects may include a sudden intense rage for an ancient society equivalent to the innate rage one has for the Romans burning the library of Alexandria, a distinct hatred for ancient men not being able to let anyone have nice things, and a sudden fascination for Minoa.

Usually, I stick to writing imagines and being happy with that. It’s fun! I love it! But every now and again, in an attempt to escape the crushing forces known as reality and responsibilities I’ll put on a few cutscenes from games I’m: A) Too lazy to play B) Too broke to play C) Too unskilled to play D) All of the above

because cutscenes are free and why torture yourself with impossible levels when its free on Youtube?* *In all seriousness please support video games and video game creators, but no shame to those of us who prefer cutscenes to gameplay. A few weeks ago I added the game Hades made by Supergiant to the list because the cutscenes were bomb and the characters are so much fun! Intricate as all hell! Hella cute too but that’s unrelated! Now my pretty little simp patootie is especially a big fan of Dionysus and his gorgeous design so the cutscenes with him are my favorite.

I’m re-watching his cutscenes a few nights ago for fun as background when he has a certain line about Theseus. Don’t quote me on this since my memory is foggy at best but roughly it was: Dionysus: Good job with Theseus. Never cared much for him- what he did to that girl was just horrible.*

*I know that’s not his exact line but this is clearly a rant post fueled by spite and ADD-hyper-focused obsessions with ancient civilizations so let’s not worry too too much about the semantics here.

Now, I like mythology! Personally, I prefer the Norse mythology due to the general lack of very very gross dynamics that several other ancient mythologies seem to include, but I’m decently familiar with Greek mythos. Enough to go - “Why does the God of Wine give a single fuck about the frat bro of Greek heroes being a dick to a woman? Grossness is embedded into the very DNA of all distant relatives of Zeus, a woman being harassed by Zeus or his bastard army is a typical Tuesday in ancient Greece.”

Wikipedia confirms that Ariadne is the only woman in the story of Theseus and the Minotaur, which I kinda knew already so unless Theseus did some f’ed up shit to some other princess of Minos, Dionysus could only be referring to her. Disregarding what I know about Wikipedia and how it can suck you down the rabbit hole of rabbit holes through sheer fury I stupidly clicked the link to Ariadne’s article.

By the time we get to the end of this shitstorm, I will have two separate plotlines for two separate stories based of Ariadne, 2k+ notes (and going) on an ancient civilization prior to a week ago I didn’t know existed and within me there will be a rage towards a different ancient civilization I vaguely recall learning about in high school.

Here’s how this shit went down.

First of all, apparently after Theseus abandoned Ariadne on an island to die (yep! He did that! To the one person who is the only reason he defeated the minotaur! Fuck this guy.) there are multiple storylines where Dionysus takes a single look at Ariadne and falls in love.

“A god falls in love?” you say, aware of how most love stories in Greek mythos can be summed up with Unfortunately, Zeus got horny and Hera is a firm believer in victim blaming. “This poor woman is about to go through hell!” I thought so too! And in one variation of the story, Dionysus does his daddy proud by being an absolute tool to Ariadne. In the majority though? He woos the fuck out of her, and ultimately marries her by consent!

Her consent!

In ancient Greece!

The party dude of the Greek pantheon knows more about consent then his father and modern day frat brothers!

Okay! That’s interesting, so I keep reading.

Ariadne getting hitched to Dionysus is a big deal in Olympus, to the point of getting a crown made of the Aurora Borealis from Aphrodite who is bro-fisting Dionysus, beyond glad she didn’t have to give him the talk about consent. The rest of the gods are pissy especially Hera who doesn’t like Dionysus much since he is the son of Zeus and Semele but they don’t do much. Ariadne ascends to godhood, becomes the goddess of Labyrinths with the snake and bull as her symbol and that’s that on that.

Colorin, colorado, este cuento se acabado. And they lived happily ever after. That’s the end of the post right?

NO! Because curiosity has made me their bitch and there’s more to this calling me.

Also, I was pissed! Still am! Why the fuck-a-doodle-do did I have to learn about the time Poseidon r*ped a priestess instead of the arguably healthiest relationship in the entirety of the pantheon? Why is Persephone and Hades’ story (which has improved since it was first written and I like more modern versions of it, no hate) the only healthy-ish Greek love story I had to learn when Dionysus and Ariadne were right there? The rage of having endured several grade levels of “Zeus got horny and Hera found out” stories in the nightmare of public education led me to keep looking into this.

There’s this wonderful Youtube channel called Overly Sarcastic Productions that I highly recommend that delves a lot into mythology, and I have seen their bombass video about Dionysus and how his godhood has changed since he was potentially first written in a language we comprehend.

Did ya’ll know this man is the heir apparent to Zeus? ‘Cause I didn’t know that!

YEA! Dionysus, man of parties, king of hangovers and inducer of madness, is set to inherit the throne of Olympus! Ariadne didn’t husband up the God of Wine, she husbanded up the Prince of Olympus and heir apparent to the throne! Holy shit! No wonder some of the gods were against her marriage to Dionysus - can you imagine the drama of an ex-mortal woman sitting on the Queen’s throne of Olympus? Hera must have been pissed.

BUT WAIT.

There’s more.

The reason we know Dionysus is a very important god and is possibly even more important than we think is because of a handy-dandy language known as Linear B, otherwise known as the language of the Mycenaeans!

For those of you fortunate enough to have normal hobbies and interests, the Mycenaeans were the beta version of the Greeks. Their written language of Linear B is one of, if not the first recorded instance of a written Indo-European language. This language, having been translated, gives us an interesting look at what the Greek gods were like back in their beta-stages before they fixed the coding and released the pantheon.

Interesting side facts of the Mycenaean Greek gods include:

Poseidon being the head god with an emphasis on his Earthquake aspect, and being much more of a cthonic god in general.

Take that Zeus, for being so gross.

The gods in general being more cthonic, as Mycenaeans were obsessed with cthonic gods (probably due to all the earthquakes and natural disasters in Greece and Crete at that time)

Several of the gods and goddesses that we know being listed, alongside some that we don’t consider as important (Dione)

The first mention of Kore, later Persephone, but no Hades because since a lot of gods were cthonic, there would be no need for one, specific cthonic god to represent the majority of death-related rituals.

That’s not what we’re focusing on though! What we’re focusing on is a specific translated portion of Linear B that we have. One of the translated portions of Linear B that for the life of me I can’t find (someone please help me find it and send the link so I can edit this post) says an interesting phrase. “Honey to the gods. Honey to the Mistress of Labyrinths.”

One more time. “Honey to the gods. Honey to the Mistress of Labyrinths.”

Mistress of Labyrinths.

Now wait a gosh darn minute. Isn’t there a goddess of labyrinths in the Greek mythos? Why yes! Yes there is! Ariadne!

Here’s a question for you. If Ariadne is but a minor god in the pantheon, a wife to a more predominant god, why is it that while all the other gods and goddesses are bunched together in a sentence of praise, the so-called ex-mortal gets a whole-ass sentence to herself singing praises?

And thus, we have arrived to Minoa!

What is Minoa, you ask? Minoa is to Rome what Rome is to us. An old-ass civilization either older than or younger by a hundred years to ancient Egypt. Egypt, that started in 3200 B.C-ish depending on who you ask. That’s old. Old as balls. They were contemporaries to their trading partner, Egypt until 1450 BC-ish. A 2000 year old civilization.

Minoa was founded on the island of Crete, and was by what artifacts we have found a merchant civilization with its central economy centered on the cultivation of saffron and the development of bronze/iron statues of bulls. Most of what we know about them comes from artifacts and frescoes found on Crete that managed to survive everything else I will mention later, but what matters is that we know a few things about them.

Obsessed with marine life for some time, given their pottery.

Had the first palaces in all of Europe, some of them ridiculously big.

Wrote in Linear A and Cretan Hieroglyphs, both still untranslated languages.

Had a ritual involving jumping over a bull, for some reason.

Firm believers in “Suns out, Tits out.”

You’d think I’m kidding on the last one but no! No no no! All the women apparently rocked the tits-out look in Minoa!

^^^^One of many, many Minoan works featuring women giving their titties fresh air. ^^^^

“Wait a second Pinks! What does this have to do with Ariadne being the Mistress of labyrinths?”

Well you see dear wonderful darling, while we know very little about Minoan religion because Mycenaeans (we will get to those bastards in a second), we do know this:

All the religious figures appear to be exclusively women.

The most important figures of their religion seem to be goddesses as there are few artifacts featuring male gods.

Because of the religion, the culture may have been an equal society or even a matriarchy! Historians who are male aren’t sure.

A frankly ridiculous amount of their temples, including the ones in caves in the middle of fuck-all feature labyrinths. A lot of labyrinths!

Their head god is a goddess! Whose temples have labyrinths and whose main symbols are snakes and bulls. Who do we know is a) the mistress of labyrinths and b) is symbolized a lot by snakes and bulls?

ARI-fucking-ADNE THAT’S WHO!

Ariadne didn’t upgrade by marrying the prince of Olympus! Dionysus wifed up possibly the most important goddess in all of Crete and becoming her boy-toy!

I’m not even kidding, most Minoan depictions of the goddess’ consort features a boy/man who cycles through the stages of death. Dionysus himself in several myths goes through the same cycle - life, being crushed, death, rebirth, repeat. Cycles the consort goes through in Minoan legend depictions too!

Okay, that’s great, but what does that have to do with the Mycenaeans? Why do you want to single-handedly go back in time and strangle the beta-Greeks with the nearest belt?

Everything I just said about Ariadne being a Minoan goddess, the Mistress of Labyrinths being hella important on Minoa, is all theoretical. The Mycenaeans are partially to blame for making it theoretical.

Minoa thrived for 2000 years but it had a lot of issues, mostly caused by natural disasters. Towards the end of their civilization (1500 BC-ish), the nearby island of Thera, today known as Santorini, decided to blow up. The island was a hella-active volcano that when erupted, destroyed a lot.

How big was the eruption? Well when Pompeii was wasted by Mt. Vesuvius, the blast was heard from roughly 120 miles away, 200 km.

The blast on Thera was heard from 3000 miles away. 4800 km away.

Fuck me, the environmental effects of the explosion were felt in imperialistic CHINA.

Holy shit that would waste anybody! And it did! Minoa went from being a powerhouse in the Mediterranean to scrambling to recover from losing 40,000 citizens and who knows how many cities. Tsunamis may have followed the blast, further destroying ports which for a navy-powerhouse of an island nation is a bad thing and the theorized temperature drops caused by a cloud of ash lingering for a while would have destroyed crops for the year.

Minoa was fucked.

The Mycenaeans and all their bullshit made it worse.

Up until a few hundred years prior to Thera’s explosion, Minoan artifacts don’t depict much in terms of military power. Why would it? Crete is a natural defense post. Sheer cliffs, high mountains and a few semi-fortified areas would make it pointless to invade. It’s only when the Mycenaeans in all their bullshit decided to attack/compete that Minoa really needed any army to speak of.

Guess who decided to invade while Minoa was reeling from an incredibly shitty year? Mycenaea!

Guess who won?

Also Mycenaea!

Nobody knows how this shit went down though because wouldn’t you know it, the Mycenaeans in all their superiority-complex glory decided to destroy most written accounts about Minoa, a good junk of the temples and culturally eliminated most of Minoan beliefs.

Minoa isn’t even the real name of the civilization! It’s just the name Arthur Evans, the guy who re-motivate interest in Minoan archaeology, gave to the civilization because the writings that would have included the name of the civilization were destroyed.

“That sucks!” Fuck yes that sucks! “What does that have to do with Ariadne though?”

Oh ho ho. Strap in because you’re about to be pissed.

Those of us unfortunate enough to be aware of all the bullshit the Christians pulled on the European pagan belief system are familiar with the concept of cultural, religious destruction. There’s a special name for it I don’t know but if I did I would curse it to be absorbed by the horrendous will of fungi.

An example: Christianity was not the most popular of religions amongst the Vikings. A monotheistic religion that is heavily controlled did not strongly appeal to anyone with a pantheon as rad as the Norse one.

In order to appeal to the Vikings, what monks would do is they would write down traditionally Viking stories which up until that point were orally passed down. Beowulf, the story of the most Viking Viking to have every Vikinged, was one of these first stories.

However! Did these monks write Beowulf as closely to the original oral transcript as possible? Of course not! They took liberties! While Norse features such as trolls and dragons and all sorts of Norse magic occur, there is a lot of Christian features added in.

This happened across all Pagan religions that Christianity came into contact with in Europe. Stories would be altered when written down to be more Christian (this happened to the Greek Pantheon too btw), holidays that were Pagan magically lined up with ones the Vatican just happened to suddenly have. Even names of mythological figures were taken and added onto Christian figure names. Consequently, a lot of pagan religions they did this to got erased over time, with many of their traditions and details being lost forever, and the details we do know being tinted by Christianity.

The Mycenaeans were likely no different.

Minoa and Mycenaea were as culturally opposite as can be. Minoa is theorized to be a matriarchal or equal society*. Mycenaea and most of early Greece absolutely was not. In fact, during early stages of their religion where they believed in reincarnation, the Mycenaeans believed the worst thing to come back as was a woman.

Did you get that? With your options ranging from man to ever single animal on Earth, a woman was ranked as beneath literal animals in Mycenaean society.

Fuck the Mycenaeans.

* This is not to say Minoa was without fault, as a society that is matriarchal or equal can still have rampant issues such as privilege, classism, racism, sexism and more, but when history has a shortage of civilizations that didn’t treat women like shit, you find yourself rooting for them more.

What do you do then, when you take over a society that is very much the opposite of a nightmare of a patriarchy? You fold their beliefs into your own to bait them into yours. Going back to the Linear B line about “Mistress of Labyrinths” that line would/could have been an early tactic of incorporating Minoan belief into Mycenaean belief. Other goddesses and gods were made into aspects of Mycenaean gods. Bristomartis, the Minoan goddess of the hunt, would become Artmeis. Velchanos, a god of the sky, would become Zeus.

With more time, the religion shifted more into Mycenaean and eventually into ancient Greece as we know it. Through trade other gods and goddesses would continue to shift and change, some being straight up imported (Aphrodite for example). Dionysus himself changed a lot too, going from a God representing freedom and attracting slaves, women and those with limited power into his cult, to a God of parties for the wealthy.

Theseus and the Minotaur was a myth likely based on a Mycenaean myth based on a Minoan myth that changes Ariadne from an important, possibly the important goddess of an ancient religion and relegates her to a side character in a pantheon so vast that she would be lost within it.

All of this brings us to today. Today, where as soon as work ended I spent most of the day, as well as the past two days, looking up everything I can on Minoan civilization and added it to my notes. Spite is fueling me to write two possible different stories for two different fandoms where Minoa dunks of Mycenaea and it is giving me life. Expect an update within the next two weeks folks as I lose control of my writing life once more.

In summary: Ariadne deserves more respect, fuck the public education system for skipping over the good parts of Greek mythology instead of the r*pey as shit parts, the Mycenaeans can eat my shorts, and a world were Minoa became the predominant power instead of Greece would be an amazing world to live in.

Thank you for coming to my TedTalk. Pink out.

#minoa #minoan #crete #ancient history #ariadne #mycenaea #mycenaean #I hate #HATE #HATE HATE HATE the Greeks so much #homer is a dick #So much spite and curiosity went into this #if I ever get a time machine I will travel to the first years of Mycenaea for the express purpose of burning it to the ground before #they get a chance #the opportunity #to look at Minoa wrong

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oswildin · 3 years

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hi! are you still taking marvel matchup requests? mind if i send in one??

i’m a straight girl, 5’5, ENFP. I have medium length blonde hair, very pale skin and big blue eyes. I’m also a Ravenclaw and a Libra. I’m very emotional, talkative and creative. And sometimes I think way to much and that makes me a pretty big scatterbrain. I also have a very wacky sense of humor, I was voted class clown in my hs class. I sometimes don’t take things seriously and enjoy making others laugh, I also like to tease and mess around with others but not in a rude or mean way. I just like getting a reaction out of people. So basically i’m a huge airhead! A downside is that I can be a hothead and can get angry pretty easily (cause I suffer from PTSD) (I usually hide my anger from others and rage at home) I also come across as naive, sometimes a worry wart and I don’t think before I act. I’m honestly a pretty touch starved person and crave attention.

In some ways I do believe I’m an empath, so I feel and sense emotions from others in a very personal way. It’s a gift and a curse. If I’m around negative energy or if someone releases negative emotions, it takes a toll on my emotional health and I really take it to heart. It’s very exhausting but I guess it’s nice that I care, I just hope I can regulate it and manage it appropriately.

I’m a huge lover of the arts, I write poetry, create stories and characters, draw, act and play the bass. I really want to be a fiction author when I’m older. I’m currently in college, studying creative writing! Creating is something I really love doing and I wish to do for the rest of my life.

I also love history, classic literature, I loooove mythology, all kinds, Norse Greek Asian or Egyptian, fashion, dogs, makeup, music (hip hop, lo-fi, classical and alternative music) daydreaming, and memes.

I ship you with… Bruce Banner!

Things Bruce loves about you:

• Your humour. Even though he doesn’t always understand it, he loves your ability to make others laugh.

• He likes that you’re also emotional, it makes him feel less alone knowing someone else experiences similar feelings to him.

• Even though you both can be hot heads, you somehow keep each other calm.

• Even when you first met, you were welcoming and bubbly around him, which people tended to not be, they usually stay away or cautiously approach, but not you.

• And those big blue eyes. He’s a sucker for them.

• Bruce would stutter around you quite a bit due to nervousness.

• You always break the ice and tension in a room when you enter.

• He offers you suggestions for novel ideas, even though most of them are a bit rubbish, he tries. You appreciate it. Everyone else knows he does it just to talk to you.

• He loves watching you tease Tony about who the smartest avenger is. To which Bruce and Tony both believe is themselves.

• He loves listening to you talk for hours about anything!

• He leaves you notes around the avengers quarters to remind you of things you need to do, so you don’t forget!

• Tony actually let it slip about Bruce’s crush on you, to which both of you looked shocked and unsure on what to say.

• But eventually Bruce admitted it was true, and you threw your arms around him in a hug.

Your BFF: Thor - He will always laugh the most around you, even when he doesn’t quite get the references. He loves receiving daily memes from you. He often tells you of tales of him and Loki as kids, especially the snake story. He loves that one.

Your Theme Song:

#reader insert #marvel imagine #bruce banner #bruce banner x reader #hulk #bruce banner imagine #marvel ship #character ship #thor odinson

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unearthly-space · 3 years

Text

RDR2 - Monsters AU - Van der Linde Monstrous Statuses; Pt.1/2

I figured a good start to expanding on this AU would be some sort of fanfiction or artwork of character profiles. And I will do those, eventually. But, for now, I hope a list of the Van der Linde gang’s monstrous statuses will suffice.

Dutch van der Linde: A terrifying Barghest is befitting our noble gang leader. (Probably not) Its a monstrous, goblin of a dog that appears only at night. And, if you caught a glimpse of it you would live for only but a few more months while those who saw it clear as day would die very soon after. I liked this interesting creature for Dutch. Sue me.

Hosea Matthews: A Centaur. Hosea with an Arabian's hindquarters. I feel this would be a wise choice for our dear Hosea. He's the head while Dutch is the heart after all.

Arthur Morgan: Ceryneian Hind, he may also have some sort of faun/satyr half-form, because, be honest, that'd be awesomely adorable. It was a mythical creature that lived in Ceryneia, Greece. It took the form of an enormous female deer that was larger than a bull and sported antlers made of gold like a stag's, hooves of bronze or brass, and a "dappled hide". It "excelled in swiftness of foot" and snorted fire.

John Marston: Cù-sìth, or maybe just a normal hellhound. Come on, it HAD to be wolf/dog-related. A mythological hound found in Scottish folklore. In legend, it was a creature capable of hunting as silently as a mouse, but could and would let out three terrifying barks occasionally, but only three. No more, no less. They could be heard for miles, even far out at sea. Those who heard them must reach safety by the third bark or be driven to the grave by the sheer overcoming terror.

Javier Escuella: Chupacabra. I've contemplated this for Javier, but I'm not positive if I'll keep this idea for him. It feels too "on the nose", or something. The fact that he's a Mexican man is not all he is in my opinion. I listed a few possibilities for him and Chupacabra seemed the best, but I would accept ideas for a possible change.

Bill Williamson: A bugbear. I'm not even going into detail. Just accept this.

Micah Bell: Dolos. I know, not "technically" a monster, but I liked the idea of Micah being some sort of spirit and Dolos is the Greek spirit of trickery and guile. He is also a master at cunning deception, craftiness, and treachery. So Micah is not Dolos, but a spirit heavily inspired by Dolos.

Charles Smith: Ato-sees. Yet another spirit of mythology, this time a Native American mythological figure of the Algonquian Abenaki people. He's shaman that is half-man and half-snake that forces people to find the materials with which he would cook them before he was killed that is. I thought the physical characteristics, plus some Gorgon-ey bits would make for an interesting monster form for Charles.

Sean MacGuire: Púca. I actually saw some amazing fanart someone had already done of Sean. I was researching if anyone else had done a Monster AU for the Red Dead franchise and I came across this piece on newgrounds by TheeRatPrince. I loved it. I had never heard of a Púca before, cue more research. I fell in love with how fitting it seemed to be for Sean. So this monster status is all because of the TheeRatPrince.

Lenny Summers: Jotunn. A very ambiguous entity from Norse mythology. But one "definition" that will be used here will be that they're members of a race of nature spirits with superhuman strength. They can appear more humanoid then most monsters here in body type, but will have obvious distinctions.

Sadie Adler: Furie. Ah, female chthonic deities of vengeance. Nothing more befitting for our dear widowed Sadie Adler. They are Hades servants and torturers of the wicked. There are three widely known furies and I believe I will have Sadie take after Alecto and Tisiphone.

Karen Jones: Flower nymph. Or maybe a mountain or river nymph or wood nymph. I am still undecided, but Karen as a Nymph just draws me in, you know?

Tilly Jackson: Will-o’-the-whisp. "Atmospheric ghost lights" seen at nights by travelers (particularly in bogs, swamps, marshes,ect.). It's said they either mislead travelers by resembling flickering lantern lights or even sometimes guardians of hope and treasure, leading people to find what they're looking for in life. I think I got that right at least.

Mary-Beth Gaskill: Sphinx. I couldn't think of a better (and unique) creature for our vastly intelligent author-in-the-making. The sphinx is a creature from mythology with either the head of a human, falcon, cat, or a sheep and the body of a lion with the wings of an eagle. In Greek tradition, she is mythicized as treacherous and merciless, and will kill and eat those who cannot answer her riddle. I thought it would be a twist for sweet Mary-Beth.

Uncle: An imp. They're often seen as mischievous and troublesome little buggers more than being seriously dangerous or menacing. They're "lesser beings" than other supernatural creatures and monsters. They are usually described as lively and having small stature.

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sapphosvioletts · 3 years

Note

Ah yes, irl school can be a hassle sometimes and I very much have a love-hate relationship with it 😂

And it can be kinda stressful sometimes tbh, but after four years of dealing with, I’m kinda used to it and I’m on familiar terms with quite a few teachers so that’s helpful. I also know where all the quiet pleases in school are as well, and given that all the teachers know I’m autistic they’re usually quite lenient in terms of letting me go whenever I need to

But yes, I do constantly worry about all the tiny peoples in school and accidentally hurting them - so I always try to be polite with them and squeeze through should I need to rather than barging them out the way. I also know how it feels to be in the opposite situation as well, as I used to be kinda tiny myself till late year 9ish at which point I got a growth spurt that I’ve hated ever since, so I definitely don’t want to treat all the little ones like I used to be treat

((And I really hope calling them little ones and tiny people isn’t offensive, as I’m not sure what else to cal then other than students of my high school who are below average height for their age - and that’s kinda a mouthful))

But please, brag and talk about them all you want - honestly I have no issue with listening as it always warms my heart to know that the people I care about are happy!!!

Also yes!! Swifties for life!!!

And honestly yes - Greek mythology is super cool!!! Admittedly a lot of my knowledge comes from the Percy Jackson books ((just like my Roman mythology knowledge comes from heroes of Olympus and Norse knowledge from Magnus Chase)) but I always just like delving into the wormhole of where all the myths come from and how accurate they are compared to what I’ve read - which is surprisingly a lot from what I’ve seen, so props to Rick Riordan ((the author)) for being surprisingly well researched on what he writes!!

I went on a complete random tangent there towards the end and I don’t know why

————-

Also real talk now, please - please!!!! - take as much time as you need

A lots of happened in your life recently, and if your feeling burnt out then that’s fine - that’s normal, and it happens to everyone

So you don’t need to feel guilty about not being able to respond to people’s messages or requests as often

((you also don’t need to feel bad about your writing, as it’s always amazing no matter what!!!))

And if you want to take a break then do so!! We’ll always support and care about you!!

So you can stop stressing yourself out about this stuff, or well; you can do your best to stop stressing about it as we unfortunately can’t turn certain emotions off

And in fact don’t even worry about having to respond to this anytime soon, just take as long as you need!! And that’ll probably be a bit longer than usual with how much I’ve wrote, but that’s fine too!!!

Anyway I think I said all that in a way that’s actually understandable and not pure gibberish

Just- take care and look after yourself Vi!!!

- 🦋

knowing all the quiet places sounds like it would definitely help!!! i'm glad it's not too bad anymore and your teachers let you leave when you need to!!!

and i know it's hard to just.. not a hate a part of yourself or change how you think about yourself but just know that i think being tall is amazing and you have no reason to hate that part of you!! it's who you are! and also i love tall people, so just know that i appreciate your height lol

and yes!!! they actually just got the percy jackson books!! i never read it so i don't know how many are in the series, but i think she got all of them and should be reading them soon!!! i heard it's a super good series. but that's really cool how much you are interested in it!!! greek mythology is SUCH a cool thing!!

and thank you so much for just... all of that. everything you said. you're always soooooo so kind to me, and it seriously means just sooo much to me. like i wish i had more to say to express how much it means to me and how thankful i am for it. so thank you sooo much anon, it means a lot to me 💗💗

#violet replies #🦋 anon

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newcatwords · 3 years

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approaching very old stories, stories from ancestors, stories from elders

inspired by the thread "How to Read Myths and Folklore" by Mythological Africans, i'm sharing my approach to very old stories, stories from ancestors, and stories from elders.

while i hope that this might be useful to any reader, the context here is that i'm a westerner who grew up in a western family with western values. i was educated in western schools with their values.

the mainstream white western relationship with very old stories is complicated. the abrahamic stories (judaism, christianity) are well-respected, but even most of the west's own old stories (norse stories, greek stories, little old village stories, etc.) are treated as myths (in the sense of "things people used to believe as true but that are generally no longer considered true because of scientific advances in understanding about the world").

among western peoples, most of what might be called "indigenous" culture (including stories) was suppressed & destroyed a very long time ago. christianity has been dominant in europe for so long that aside from things like the old religion of ireland, very little remains that's commonly known. specific national stories might be historical epics/legends, "fairy tales", & "mythology." often pre-christian beliefs in europe are lumped into a sort of generic "nature worship" and then dismissed.

the mainstream white western attitude is that there is little of value in very old stories for people today. newer knowledge is more highly valued. there are people who still study aristotle, etc., but generally, aside from judaism & christianity, there aren't many extremely old stories that western people value today. and many westerners are not religious & don't take their peoples' religious traditions seriously either.

(i would argue that part of this skepticism comes from the triumph of science in setting itself up as the only source of truth. part of it also comes from the fact that most of the old stories are religious, from large, patriarchical, institutionalized religions that have abused the idea of "listen to your elders" to keep people down. by not being wise elders, they have made people not trust them and also not trust the idea that listening to one's elders is important. these elders tell women to submit, tell gay people they are going to hell, claim to be virtuous while abusing children, and all the other things that have shown them to be bankrupt. there is no trust.

even aside from religious elders and ancestors, other thinkers from europe's past (ancient philosophers, national heroes, etc.) were not good people who had all kinds of terrible ideas, including racism, sexism, support for imperialism and monarchy, support for slavery, support for exploitation of natural resources, etc. the western (liberal) story goes: "people in the past were barbaric and we are more enlightened now." because of the universalizing part of western culture, this is treated as true for all people everywhere, not as something that's specific to particular peoples.

in western education, we usually don't learn that among many peoples of the world, ancestors & elders are considered wise, trusted, caring, and had many gifts to share with younger generations. i believe it's important to understand this when listening to & reading very old stories. not to say that elders were *necessarily* wise, but to accept that people from different groups see their own ancestors and knowledge passed down from ancestors in different ways.)

after considering all that, here are some specific ways i approach very old stories, stories from ancestors, and stories from elders:

first, i think about the source of the story i'm reading/listening to. how did this story come to cross my path? who is telling it? are they telling a story from their own people? what are the conditions under which i am encountering this story? among many peoples, sharing a traditional story is not done lightly. as a listener, i understand that it's an honor to be an outsider hearing a story. i have to understand who i am, who the speaker/writer is, what is our relationship (are we a settler & a colonized person? are we an "educated" person and a person from the village? it makes a difference!) who is the speaker/writer's intended audience, what is the context in which i am receiving this story?

here is an example: i live on hawai'i island (i'm a white (but also jewish and immigrant) settler on hawaiian land). every year there's a large festival and competition of hula (traditional hawaiian dance) called merrie monarch. hula is an ancient art form, sacred to the goddess laka. hula is often accompanied by singing, chanting, and is a whole performance. there's a huge variety: hula can be for ritual, for entertainment, to tell/perform historical stories, to prepare for battle, to be playful, to welcome visitors, to welcome the birth of a child, and for many other purposes. there are similar dances all across the pacific, and usually groups come from all over the world to share the very best they have to offer. as such, it's an important event for hawaiians and for other pacific people.

here are some excerpts from merrie monarch 2019 to give you an idea of what it's like:

youtube

if i'm in the audience, or watching merrie monarch on tv, i have to understand that i'm an outsider spectator and that this event is mainly by and for hawaiians and other pacific people. i am an outsider who they have graciously let in to their culture in this way. i think it's important to understand all this in order to take the proper attitude towards old stories. see them as a gift from the speaker/writer/performer that one is being allowed to hear. the next thing to consider: who is the teller? in english (the only language i have experience reading stories in), we often get stories from non-western peoples as filtered through white westerners. i take all of these with a grain of salt. if at all possible, i try to find the story as told/written by someone *from the group* that the story is from. i mostly skip over retellings/interpretations by white westerners entirely. if the story is within an anthropology text, i'll try to get any historical context that the anthropologist provides, and then just read the story itself. white western interpretations of non-western stories are usually a garbled mess. translations can also be a minefield. here in hawai'i, anthropologists & folklorists have been "recording hawaiian stories" for over a hundred years. it's a complicated history of tellings of tellings, translations that have become canon, and more. (if you're interested in learning more, i recommend the excellent book Mai Paʻa I Ka Leo: Historical Voice in Hawaiian Primary Materials, Looking Forward and Listening Back by M. Puakea Nogelmeier. it discusses the formation of an english-language canon of a huge archive of hawaiian-language newspapers, which contain many serialized stories & legends.) although it may seem difficult, i encourage you, the reader, to learn about the complicated landscape around the story you're reading/listening to. in other words, how did this particular version of the story come to end up with you? the preface and introduction in a book can often provide a lot of background info on the text in your hand. you don't want to be reading the hand-me-down version of some white supremacist's version of the story, assuming that that's really the story of a certain people! if at all possible, try to get to the actual words of the people whose story it is. also, consider that like hula, "stories" are not just the words, but might include the dance, the music, the performance, how the words are delivered, etc. "the story" might be all of those things together. the listener/reader's understanding might only arise from having that whole experience...without it, you might not get the actual message the story is meant to give. a story that might seem violent and off-putting in text, it might turn out that it's commonly told around a campfire to entertain children, complete with fart sounds and jokes. knowing that is important. that kind of story is very different from a story told during a ritual, or a creation story. aside from the conditions under which the story is told/performed among a people, it's important to know how old the story is. i've seen anthropologists describe stories from the late 1800s as "very old." i would dispute that characterization. generally, the older a story is, the more carefully i listen. often the storyteller will tell you the age and context of the story. they might say "this is a story i heard from my elders. this story has been among our people for many generations." ok, so i am about to hear a story passed down for many generations...it's a story that people remember and a story that people think is important enough to pass down to their children, who in turn remember it and pass it down. how many stories do *i* have like that? exactly zero. so in my mind, when i hear "this is a story that's been passed down among my people for generations," i listen carefully because something important is about to be shared. the teller/writer will often also tell you why they're sharing the story or who it's meant for. i've heard things like "this story is important not just for

our people, or for indigenous people, it's important for people all over the world." well in that case, i better listen. sometimes they might say "we are recording this story for younger generations", to help their own people remember their peoples' stories. stories told to anthropologists can be a whole minefield. imagine you're minding your own business at home, when an anthropologist shows up and wants to ~record your stories~. why? just because they're interested and want to share them with their pals back home. now imagine that those anthropologists are of the same background and from the same people who have colonized your land, enslaved your people, driven your people from your land, and continue to marginalize your people. this anthro might claim they're "not like that", but once you've given them the story, maybe you never hear from them again and you never even see what they actually wrote in their book. it's important to remember that there's a story extraction history. white westerners have built careers off "harvesting" stories from non-western peoples. what have they given back? it's even worse when you consider that many white members of the academy are seen as "experts" on the culture they study (even if their understanding is poor!), while members of that culture are excluded from the western academy and can't get their works published. it's important to consider that history when reading stories in anthropology (and similar) books. many people have had generations of anthropologists come and go, all asking for stories. let's just say that i wouldn't blame them if they gave a silly or "fake" story to the latest generation of clueless white anthro. i have no way to know how common it is, but i've read at least one story that led me to wonder "is the person telling the story just taking the piss out of this anthro?" how many stories might subtly mock or poke fun at the westerner and the westerner doesn't even realize it? it's something to consider. which brings me to the next thing i consider: many meanings. oral traditions are often incredibly rich and nuanced. some stories are straightforward (maybe it's a story to entertain) and some stories have *many* layers of meaning, including historical, political, serious, humorous, and much more. you might have to hear the story or understand the tone the teller uses in different parts of the story to understand whether something is meant to be serious or funny. you may have to know a lot about the history, culture, and context of the story to understand all the layers. (for an excellent example from here in hawai'i, i recommend the book Ka Honua Ola: ‘Eli‘eli Kau Mai / The Living Earth: Descend, Deepen the Revelation by Pualani Kanaka‘ole Kanahele. she goes line-by-line in several important chants discussing the multiple meanings.)

anyway, these are the main things i keep in mind when approaching ancient stories, stories from ancestors, stories told by elders. i hope this helped you. if you see anything i've gotten wrong, please let me know! thank you for reading.

#reading #mythology #stories

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helpful-hierophant · 4 years

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Pagan Religion in Media

@phemonoi wanted to discuss:

I would like to discuss our exposure in media and pagan integration to society. To be more concise, I would like people to know we exist.

***(key points if you have no spoons to read it all are in bold!)***

This topic has been discussed many times among almost all pagan groups. One way or another we have all been portrayed in films or movies or books. But while trying not to repeat many conversations before mine, I also want to go into how it is GOOD that we are in the media, and why it is BAD.

Almost always the portrayal has been either completely disrespectful, or using our gods or stories as dark villains or just completely false. We see this in examples such as Supernatural; with many Native American figures being used as monsters; Marvel using Norse gods like Loki, Thor, Hela, etc.. We also know that Marvel will be bringing Hercules into the MCU very soon as well (forgive me my true love in life is Marvel and I recognize the hypocrisy. Ultimately I want to see change in the media when talking about pagan faith not just complaining about these media). But to bring the conversation to the Hellenic side of portrayals, i think we all know of the Percy Jackson series and Heroes of Olympus or Wonder Woman and the….far more disgusting media that's popular right now I will not name.

The biggest issue with all of these are the exact same, and ties into the second part of the discussion of pagan integration into society. Christianity has fought and enforced the pressure and normality of our society on their terms. being pagan, you see it more than a christian or even an atheist would, as the damage done to pagan history and culture is completely different to that of atheism. Since the crusades the church has basically forced subconscious actions into our society top to bottom. And when you point out these things, people scoff and say you're reading into it, or there's nothing that bad about it and you shouldn't be so sensitive. This attitude is aimed towards minority religions, because we as religions aren't taken seriously. Think of why it's even called MYTHology. It’s to enforce the idea that our stories and faith aren’t anything more than just make believe. You don’t call it Bible myths do you? Or Christian mythology. No, you call it stories. Even our vocabulary and language is formed around what the church has formulated over centuries of control. Let me be clear that I love and support Christianity as a faith, but things like this can not go under the rug and by not talking about it; avoiding this and other history of the church is to let it go without correction, especially because it is within the subconscious of society.

So what the hell does this have to do with my movies and books? Well, with this mindset, that these gods are simply fictional characters, content creators aren't thinking about it being disrespectful at all. And even ones that have been forced to acknowledge us, oftentimes won't change the behavior just because ‘well i'm just using them for entertainment not the actual gods.’ you're forcing lions into a circus and you're not the ringleader, you're a clown. Straight out. I think it’s very different when we as Hellenics make our own content vs. other people. This is not including artists, as artwork is mostly alright! When media goes over the line is taking our gods and using them as a black and white villain, or creating a ‘personality’ and treating them as dumb, just a plot point, mindless, stupid, etc. The issue is HOW you portray the gods, not the inclusion of the gods.

As this pushes others to believe in this narrative and also pushes the fiction belief of these gods. One could argue that even the stories we have of ancient times was like the fanfics of the ancient Greeks about the gods, as most of the myths are not actually what happened, aside from translation issues.

So to change the direction of this post with that last bit being said; I mentioned above how it could also be GOOD. Now after that speech of how terrible it is, how can I give you a reason it could be good also? Well there's only one reason that I can find in it all that I can say is good. I always think something good can come from anything, even if you can’t see it in the moment. I think pagan religions being used in the media help the community by helping others find their way to pagan religions. I know a lot of gate-keeping elitists get all huffy if anyone dares finds the religion through such a source. I can promise you so many Hellenics can testify that they found the religion through talking to people about the books or maybe they just really like it and look into Greek stories more and are like ‘wow!! I really connect with this!” I think the big issue these gatekeepers have with people who are exposed to the religion this way is they think that these people take the media as truth, thinking that just because you were exposed to the faith through media, that you haven’t done any research and that all your knowledge of the gods is from a fandom. How sad to think they think so little of their fellow Hellenics. I have met many people who have found Hellenism through fandom outlets and are diligent in their studies. The media, for a pagan heart, is nothing more than a door to the faith, it is not the box anyone serious about the religion is taking as real information. But the treatment of people coming in this way is not only terrible but damages their connection to the Hellenic community and ultimately their feelings of being comfortable reaching out for assistance in learning how to practice. The issue is non Hellenics taking this as fact, and certain media with the gods that are not at all okay, and vile treatment of the gods.

I think I will make a part two to cover the pagan integration, as that in itself is quite the box. This was just my thoughts typed out as I thought them. I am in no way a perfect source, this is simply from the perspective of someone who's been a hellenic for 3 years and loves discussing topics with others to grow! I hope this gave some insight and, to remind everyone, this is an open discussion! Not a debate thread or discourse invitation. For the sake of everyone being comfortable please refrain from naming L**e Olympus as it is very triggering for most Hellenics and I avoid saying its name when I can. We are here to grow and who knows, maybe my mind will be changed by one of your thoughts! Let me know, hail the gods!

#hellenic polytheism #hellenistic #hellenic #l*re olympus #tw lore olympus #percy jackson #marvel #pagan #pagan gods #pagan media #greek pagan #talk theoi to me

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