#Its incest in the way a lot of greek myth is. | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

shipcestuous · 7 days

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Today I found myself thinking about how different authors try to downplay or erase incest in godly ships in Greek mythology retellings... stuff like, "the gods don't have DNA so it's different for them" or "gods are manifestations of cosmic forces so they only consider themselves related but aren't in a biological sense." One example I think is pretty funny in its execution is the webcomic Lore Olympus.

Now, I admit I've never read it, but from what I understand, the main characters, Hades and Persephone, aren't uncle and niece. Hades is brothers with Zeus and Poseidon, but Persephone was created with magic by Demeter, who was also created with magic alongside Hera and Hestia, her non-biologically-related sisters.

However, Persephone looks A LOT like Hades' mother, Rhea, to the point that people who like the comic sometimes say Hades is getting to "do it all over again" and have a better and healthier version of his parents' marriage (Hades himself looks a lot like his father, who is still Kronos, and yes, he still ate his kids) while people who dislike it (it's pretty divisive, and idly digging into all the drama is actually the one reason I know all this) joke about him just having Oedipus complex.

I think at one point (maybe before Lore Olympus was picked up by Webtoon?) Rhea actually had a much different design, but then the author retconned that to make her more similar to Persephone. And while Rhea is essentially a giantess, being a Titan, and Persephone is usually short and petite, Persephone can ALSO become a giantess, when she unlocks her full power or something like that. I think I've even heard that Hades REALLY likes it when she does that...

Anyway, in the same series, there's also two, or rather three, other examples of "related in myth, unrelated in the comic" that I think are quite unexpected and interesting.

One is Hestia and Athena. As I said above, Hestia isn't related to Zeus, and tbh, I'm not sure if ATHENA even is at this point, but in mythology, they're aunt and niece, being respectively Zeus' sister and his daughter. Here, they run some kind of support organization for young goddesses, where all new members have to take an oath of chastity and swear off relationship for some reason, but they actually have a forbidden secret relationship themselves.

Another, even more surprising one is Kronos and Hera... which leads directly to Hades and Hera right after. From what I understand, during the Titanomachy, Hera pretended to switch sides and ally herself with Kronos, but really, she was a double agent gathering intelligence to help Zeus and the others. To do that, she seduced Kronos, but then, he developed some sort of creepy, obsessive "love" for her. I think Rhea had been killed by Kronos or otherwise died by that point. Anyway, after Zeus freed his brothers and confined Kronos in Tartarus, Hera and Hades bonded over the trauma Kronos had inflicted on them and started a relationship, which I'm pretty sure continued for a time, in some on-and-off way, even after Hera married Zeus to become his queen.

Oh, and here's a fun bonus! Aside from all of this, I've heard of some much rarer, pseudo-incestuous, "unrelated in the myths, related in the comic" type weirdness, too...

You know the myth of Hades' concubine Minthe, whom he set aside after marrying Persephone, but who kept claiming Hades would leave Persephone to come back to her one day, until either Persephone or Demeter turned her into a mint plant for it in a rage? Well, in Lore Olympus, Minthe is Hades' girlfriend at the beginning of the story, but they both have issues and they aren't a good match for each other. Which is possibly why they have an open relationship, with Hades visiting strip clubs and whatnot and Minthe having a side thing with Thanatos, who is the son of Nyx and Erebos in the myths... but here turns out to be Hades' adopted son after Nyx left him in his care as a small child.

I distinctly remember seeing a panel showing that Hades had bought a ring for Minthe, so he must have been planning to propose to her before he met Persephone... which means that Thanatos was having an affair with a woman who could have soon become his own stepmother! Personally, I like to imagine what might have happened had they kept it up even with Minthe becoming Hades' wife... but that's just me, lol. In the comic itself, Hades eventually asks Minthe to have a more committed relationship despite already having feelings for Persephone himself, so she breaks it off with Thanatos, and he then moves on to Daphne, the same one Apollo falls in obsessive love with in the myths... yep, lots of unexpected ships, it seems!

But, imho, this is also interesting because Daphne is ANOTHER character who looks kind of a lot like Persephone. And, as an outsider looking in, it almost seems like a pattern for Thanatos to me... first going for his dad's girlfriend, then for a girl who's very similar to his dad's new girlfriend...

From what I think I understood about Thanatos' own subplot, Hades was a very neglectful and cold father to him because he was afraid that if he'd let himself grow close to him, eventually he'd somehow end up treating him the way Kronos had treated HIM as a child. But as a kid, Thanatos couldn't know what was actually going on in his head, and obviously he was still upset about Nyx abandoning him, so he started acting up, and then their relationship worsened from there. And so, my incest-shipping brain can't help but wonder... what if going for Minthe and then a Persephone lookalike was a subconscious way for Thanatos to try and feel closer to Hades, or maybe finally get his attention, if his affection was just too difficult to obtain...?

I think it's very unlikely I'll ever actually read Lore Olympus, because it seems longer than I usually like when it comes to romantic dramas and I've read some things about the way it handles its plot and characters, as well as certain sensitive themes (some of them showing up in the very same subplots I mentioned here, which would be the most interesting to me), that really put me off. But there's an AU of it more or less living rent-free in my head where Hades was in angsty unrequieted love with Rhea and Thanatos is now in angsty unrequieted love with Hades.

... And Hades/Persephone and Hestia/Athena are uncle/niece and aunt/niece, Kronos/Hera is father/daughter, and Hades/Hera is brosis, naturally. Because why not be as self-indulgent as I can while I'm at it, after all?

All of the incest with none of the incest? That's what this sounds like to me, lol. I do find the erasing of the incestuousness in various adaptations to be amusing. I just ignore it!

Some of these relationships in Lore Olympus sound pretty interesting. But they would be a lot more interesting if they were related!

#asks #anonymous #mythology #greek mythology #lore olympus #hades and persephone #athena and hestia #hera and kronos #hades and thanatos

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nighttimeebony · 1 year

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My reactions, thoughts, and predictions that I had while reading Percy Jackson: The Titan's Curse. At least the ones I bothered to write down. Spoilers below the cut. Also, fair warning, this one is way longer than either of my previous reaction posts. I had a lot of thoughts.

EDIT: part 1, part 2, part 4, part 5

I feel I should mention that the Percy Jackson books have objectively the best chapter titles

The mental image of Sally driving Percy and his friends to get their ass beat like it's just an after-school sports club is hilarious to me

Ooh, Thalia has hypnosis wind

So Thalia didn't age while she was in that tree? Because I remember she was much older than Annabeth at the time of her death, but now she, Annabeth and Percy are all the same age. Huh. Okay then.

NICO DI ANGELO!!! I've heard about you! You're gay! And he has a sister! Oh I am delighted and ready to love them!

Thalia insulting Grover's music taste.

ANNABETH IS TALLER THAN PERCY

Aww, Nico defending his sister.

OH SHIT, IS THORN A MANTICORE??!???!!

"They're not dolls! They're figurines!" Sure, sweetie.

CALLED IT

Bianca is great.

Oh my God, Nico, you beautiful nerd! XD

HUNTING HORN?!!?!!! SILVERY ARROWS?!!?!??? IS IT ARTEMIS?!!!! PLEASE TELL ME ITS ARTEMIS!!!!!

HOLY FUCK, ARTEMIS'S HUNTERS!!!!!!!

Zoë Nightshade is easily the most badass name I've ever heard in my life.

ARTEMIS!!!!!!!

Please tell me Annabeth is okay. I will not be okay until I know that she is

Oh my God, Nico! XD Also, chill, Percy, he's just a baby.

"Besides, I hear they rebuilt the cabins you burned down." Excuse me, what?!

Percy, leave Bianca be! Besides, you don't even know her! She can be a badass warrior hunter lady if she wants. What even are your hang-ups about Artemis's hunters? They saved your life.

Oh, wait, that's right. Camp Half-Blood needs more people to keep it protected. That's right.

Good for you, Bianca, but I can't say that I would ever leave my little brother to become an immortal virgin. No offense to them, but girl, your brother needs you. You may have a new family, but you're all he's got.

Oh, I love Artemis calling Apollo her annoying brother. Do we get to see them interact? I pray that we do.

Grover simping for Artemis is so valid.

Thalia thinking Apollo’s hot is so valid.

Apollo being an obnoxious kind-of hippy going through an anime phase is the greatest idea anyone has ever had. He's so stupid, I love him.

Apollo's comment about pretty girls turning into plants reminded me of the myth about the time where one of his boyfriends turned into a flower after he died. Hyacinthus. Because we cannot forget that Apollo is canonically bisexual. If Rick Riordan doesn't (at some point) acknowledge how gay ancient Greek mythology is, I'm going to riot.

Dating must be really weird at Camp Half-Blood. And between demi-gods in general, right? Because, technically speaking, they're all kind of related to each other. I guess it just works differently since the gods aren't human, so there's not the same case to be made about genetics and the potential for incest. Or maybe that only applies to kids who have the same god parent. Like how Percy sees Tyson as his brother. I’m wondering if the kids from other cabins feel the same way. Like, do kids from different cabins consider themselves siblings? Does Annabeth see the other kids from Athena’s cabin as her siblings? What does the dating scene even look like at Camp Half-Blood? Is it considered scandalous to date other members of your own cabin? Or do some people think it’s taboo or whatever to date other demigods in general? I don’t need sleep, I need answers!

Ohhh. Okay. So apparently Thalia has aged while she was in the tree, just very slowly. So if Percy is 14 and Thalia can pass as an 8th grader like him, and she should be somewhere between 12 and 19, if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say she's about 15 or 16.

Oh, hey, I was right. Thanks, Apollo.

Aww, poor Thalia. Lol. I was the exact same way when I drove for the first time. Literally had a panic attack on the spot, and I wasn't even controlling the Earth's temperature.

Yay, Tyson! I was worried we wouldn’t see him again until, like, the last book or something.

Aww, it’s so sweet that Tyson wants to see Annabeth. And it’s adorable how cool he thinks she is.

Wow, Luke really is an unbelievable bastard. Annabeth is smart, she was smart to question him, but when the rocks started to fall, her instincts drove her to protect Luke, because even though he’s an unbelievable bastard, Annabeth still can’t help but harbor positive feelings for her. For the longest time, he was family to her and she loved him, so of course those feelings are still there, even if she knows it’s illogical.

Wait. Annabeth is holding up the ceiling of a cave, which Percy acknowledges that she shouldn’t be able to do. So… is the cave ceiling actually the sky? Like how, in Greek mythology, the sky is held up by the titan Atlas? In the mythology, Heracles trades places with Atlas holding up the sky while Atlas helps Heracles complete one of his twelve labors, and when Atlas is about to leave, Heracles tricks Atlas into taking back the sky before bolting. Like how Luke tricked Annabeth into holding up the cave ceiling before leaving her alone to hold it by herself.

Okay, Grover, chill out with the stalking, bud.

I guess Grover and Annabeth take turns getting damsel-ed. Last book was Grover’s turn and this book is Annabeth’s turn.

Don’t worry, Percy, I forgot about that scarf too.

Okay, not liking how the Hunters are portrayed. Because when Artemis says to give up love, she only means romantic love, which is clearly not the only kind of love. Greek mythology practically invented the concept of differentiating and identifying different kinds of love. The Hunters should know that, but the way they act towards the other campers is really… I dunno, gross? They act like their way of life is the only way that matters, which is super fucked up coming from the people that follow Artemis.

“I wondered if there was any way I’d looked that ridiculous when I’d first arrived.” Percy, that was literally only two years ago, get off your high fucking horse. XD

Thalia static-shocking people when she’s annoyed is golden and I love her.

Oh, fuck.

OH, FUCK!

Oh, we love the prophecies… Yayyyy.

Okay, guessing time. Artemis is chained to a rock, which immediately made me think of Prometheus, the titan that gifted fire to humanity and was punished by Zeus to be chained to a rock and have an eagle eat his liver every day for eternity. But then the Oracle mentioned that one must withstand “The Titan’s Curse,” which could be another reference to Prometheus, but I don’t think so. Because in the myth, Heracles killed the eagle and freed Prometheus from his punishment, so I’m pretty sure it’s not that, but you never know. Then I remembered Annabeth and my prediction that she’s currently holding up the sky like the titan Atlas, and the Oracle said that “one must withstand.” Admittedly, my knowledge of Atlas and his mythos is shaky at best, and I don't remember him ever having a "curse", but I guess holding up the entire sky is about as "cursed" as it's possible to be. And the Oracle saying that “one must withstand” makes me think that something happened to Atlas, so now someone needs to hold the sky in his place or else the sky will collapse to the earth and the world will end, or something like that. So that’s my prediction, that someone will need to hold up the sky in Atlas’s place for the rest of, well, forever. I don’t have a guess as to who it could be, though.

Also, someone is apparently going to die. And be killed by their god parent. Awesome… Super looking forward to that inevitable heartbreak… I hope it’s not either of the di Angelo kids, but they’re both new characters, and I know Nico becomes more important later (purely by accident and through pop culture osmosis), and since I had no idea that Biance even existed until I started reading this book, I am terrified that that means Bianca is going to die. I pray that I am wrong.

Wow, Thalia is petty and I’m kind of living for it.

I love that the Stoll brothers are basically Greek Fred and George Weasley.

Wow, Zoë’s kind of a bitch. She won’t travel with Percy because he’s a boy, and apparently Grover doesn’t count as a boy because he’s a satyr. Super fucked up.

You know, Artemis did have male Hunters. It didn’t happen often in the mythology, but there was a pretty famous male Hunter of Artemis named Hippolytus. The thing about Artemis’s Hunters isn’t that men weren’t allowed to be Hunters, it’s just that men typically didn’t choose to be Hunters, because one of the reasons why Artemis’s Hunters joined her in the first place is because Artemis protected the women in her care from the sexist constraints placed on them by Greek society at the time. The reason why men didn’t typically become Hunters is because they didn’t need the same kind of protection and escape from Greek society that women did. And Artemis didn’t hate men on principal, she hated the fact that men were the ones who used their positions of power to discriminate against and abuse the women in their society.

Aww. Grover’s such a sweetheart.

I love Sally.

Percy has so many damn Dreams™ and nightmares I have to wonder if this kid ever sleeps.

Apparently Percy knows the names of the pegasi, which is adorable to me. And this one is apparently Blackjack, which is a great name for a horse.

Aww, I want a baby serpent cow.

Aww, Nico. He's precious and I love him. Protect this child at all costs

Oh, I know about Ariadne. Theseus ditched her on an island after she helped him navigate the labyrinth and kill the minotaur. That's how she met Dionysus. I'm pretty sure they got married not too long after.

Aww, Dionysus and Ariadne are still married. That'd be kind of sweet if Dionysus wasn't such an asshole.

Yup, I know about Medea too.

Did they really just give Dionysus the Snape treatment? He hates all heroes on principle because one of them was cruel to his wife? He thinks he’s justified in harassing children because they’re training to be heroes, and he thinks that all heroes suck? Wow, dude. Get a life.

Oh, cool, Bianca’s forgetting things now. Nothing sketchy or sinister about that, I’m sure.

Is the General the titan Atlas? If my earlier theory was right, then he's gotta be.

Excuse me, teeth?! Plant them?!

Oh, wait! I think I know what that’s talking about. In Jason’s myth, he had to yoke a field with the teeth of (if memory serves) fire-breathing oxen. I don’t remember what planting the teeth did, but I’m guessing it wasn’t anything good.

HAH! Saber-toothed tiger kitties popped out

The General talks about mortals the same way I talk about fanfiction and anime

OH FUCK THE NEMEAN LION

“Sometimes mortals can be more horrible than monsters.” Truth.

Wait… what’s going on with Bianca? There’s something fucky going on with her memory.

“‘Bianca,’ Zoë said. ‘How long ago…’ Her voice faltered.” FOR FUCK’S SAKE, RICK!

Ain’t no way this friendly homeless guy isn’t some kind of hell monster.

Oh. I stand corrected. Not a hell monster. Probably a god. The gods love disguising themselves as old people to test mortals

The Mountain of Despair. Sounds fun. I wonder if this is the mountain Prometheus was chained to, since it’s powered by titan magic and all that.

Ladon… I know that name. I recognize that, but I can’t for the life of me remember his myth or anything about him.

*in reference to one of Percy's dreams* Oh, wait. Is this Jason and Medea?

Oh, nope. It was Zoë. I figured she had some kind of bad break with a boyfriend or something, but I dismissed it at first because I figured she was too young. But I guess if she was around during ancient Greek times, that sort of thing doesn’t matter.

Oh, hey! I once visited Cloudcroft, New Mexico! It was a nice little place.

“I was never very comfortable talking one-on-one with girls anyway…” Okay, Percy, you and I both know that is a lie. Annabeth is, like, your best friend.

"'Bianca,' I said. 'That hotel you stayed at. Was it possibly called the Lotus Hotel and Casino?'" Oh no.

Seventy years?!

Oh, fuck.

99% sure Aphrodite is the one in the car.

WAIT, HOLD UP! IF BIANCA AND NICO WERE BORN MORE THAN 70 YEARS AGO, THAT MEANS THEY WERE BORN BEFORE THE BIG 3'S OATH, RIGHT?! SO DOES THAT MEAN MY THEORY ABOUT HADES BEING THEIR GOD PARENT IS RIGHT?!?!??!! OHHHHHHH, SHIIIIIITTTTT

"When she smiled at me, just for a moment she looked a little like Annabeth." AHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Aphrodite is the patron goddess of shippers.

What the hell, Aphrodite, chill, lady.

"You act like it was real." Percy, this is Greek mythology. Every single star/constellation was either a person or an animal before this whole mess.

"It... it was for Nico. It was the only statue he didn't have." OH MY GOD!! ToT

"If anything happens, give that to Nico. Tell him... tell him I'm sorry." WHY??!!?!?? LITERALLY DON'T!!!!!

"Here we were in the desert. And Bianca di Angelo was gone." WHAT THE FUCK?!!??!!! WHY DO YOU HATE ME!???!!??

No, but please tell me she's not dead. The prophecy just said "lost", not dead. And there's no body, so she could still be alive. Rick hasn't killed anybody yet, Bianca cannot be the first. I refuse.

The Hesperides! That's why Ladon sounded so familiar! He was the dragon!

"'But--' Gurgle, gurgle, the naiad spoke in my mind." RICK!!!!!! FINISH YOUR GODDAMN SCENES FOR ONCE!!!!! THIS IS THE KIND OF STRESS AND ANTICIPATION THAT MAKES PEOPLE LOSE HAIR!!!!

I like that Grover, Percy and Thalia actually listened to Annabeth ramble about her special interest enough that they can just recall random facts like that. It's an adorable little friendship detail, but also fucking sad. I miss Annabeth.

Hah. "Dam". Let these kids swear. They deserve it.

"'Nah,' I said. 'Not that high.'" Aww, Percy's a good friend.

Hah. Statue fucking.

Oh no! Is Bessie the monster! No! But she's so cute!

PLEASE DON'T KILL THE BABY COW SNAKE

"'This is Atlas's mountain,' Zoë said." LET'S FUCKING GOOOOOOO

"'Yes,' Zoë said bleakly. 'Atlas is my father.'" THE GAME JUST FUCKING CHANGED

*after finishing chapter 18* ......... Fuck, man.

Wait, why isn't Hades a part of the Twelve Olympians? And why haven't we heard any mention of Demeter's demigod children? I can't remember the last time the Demeter Cabin was even mentioned, if it ever was.

Well, I guess Thalia joining the Hunters is a pretty roundabout way to have the prophecy be about Percy.

"But I will be watching, Percy Jackson. I do not approve of your friendship with my daughter." Well, then you're gonna hate what happens later.

Aww. Percy and Annabeth have matching battle scars. Sort of. Still sweet.

Oh, no, Nico.... Baby.....

"It was a statue of Hades, Lord of the Dead." OH FUCKING SHIT

"A son of Hades." OH FUCKING SHIT

HOLY SHIT, PAN HAS ENTERED THE CHAT

#pjo #pjo the titan's curse #the titan's curse #percy jackson spoilers #pjo spoilers #percy jackson and the titan's curse #percy jackson #nico di angelo #pjo thalia #bianca di angelo #zoe nightshade #grover underwood #annabeth chase #percy jackson the titan's curse

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dullyn · 1 month

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I'm interested in your perspective writing the arthurian legends for pre/early teens! It was a huge obsession of mine at that age (and now lol) and I just encountered the incest etc as part of the story - at that age I just wasn't troubled by it. Your experience sounds a lot like mine where those elements were more impactful as an adult but maybe less so as a kid. Could it just be incorporated passingly/not graphically rather than changed? Its such a strange thing to navigate. Good luck on your writing!

Okay so what I’m doing with mine is relying on two things: uninformed narrator and being a little picky&choosy with what I have in my story.

My narrator is Lancelot as a 15 year old boy fresh out of the Lake World except he’s very unaware of everything as I’m making him more of a modern guy sent to Camelot than a boy raised with fairies determined to Be A Knight. So this gives me some leeway as he’s a bit stupid (said with love) and does not entirely understand all customs/happenings around him so that the kids reading can like learn it along with him.

Then with the picking and choosing, I think it’s nice that there is just So Much Source Material for the Arthurian legends cause it means I can write about the knights doing almost anything and it will have happened at some point. (Hence the joke post I made where I said I gave Hellawes a dragon, cause why not). So I can like stay away from the crazier/unethical events that happen in the main plot of my story (Like Bors and Claire cause I hate that so much). Though not entirely deviating from the legends as a whole. I don’t think I’m going to mention the whole incest thing in this book, maybe in the future, and that is entirely because if I ever publish it I would rather not have my story be classified as something Mature and therefore not be shown to the entire intended age group (Cause people are weird about books).

My ultimate goal is for it to be more of a gateway for kids to read it and get into the official legends, then for it to be a 100% recreation of the stories warts and all. Kind of like how PJO is a kid friendly adaptation of Greek myths (ish) and got a lot of people into Greek and Roman mythology. (I am not in any way saying I am similar to Rick Riordan and his skill as a writer, I’m just a college student typing away at my laptop). I just want people to appreciate Arthur and the Knights the same way I did as a kid (and still do).

#writing #writer stuff #writeblr #arthuriana #arthurian legend #knights of the round table

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usagi-zakura · 1 month

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Fandom sometimes needs to sit their ass down and chill... part 2

Decided to put this one in a separate post because its directed at a different fandom.

Hazbin Hotel.

No its not about expecting demons to be decent people this time...and its mainly criticism directed at the subreddit where some fans have decided to find a bunch of plot holes where there are none because they didn't actually watch the show...

Or something I've been seeing more of recently... people expecting this to be a direct adaptation of the Bible.

A question that keeps popping up is "How is Adam the first human soul in Heaven when he had a son who died before him??"

Referring of course to Abel, of Cain and Abel fame. God's favorite boi because he scarified meat instead of vegetables...so his brother got jealous and murdered him. Presumably Adam was still alive a this point as he went on to have another child.

Hazbin Hotel makes no mention of this... so there's no reason to belive it even happened. Hazbin Hotel borrows some characters from Abrahamic myths, but it has never advertised itself as a 1 to 1 adaptation of the Bible.

It would feel kinda awkward if Sera referred to Adam as "the second human soul in heaven after his kid who got brutally murdered by his own brother but we're not gonna talk about him ever because he's not important to the plot", that'd just be confusing to any fan who isn't familiar with that particular story. Making the bible required reading for an adult cartoon is a little weird.

Its easier to just ignore that story entirely if its not gonna be important to the plot.

Lilith isn't in the bible either.

Shocker I know... She was invented way later, maybe as a reason to explain why in Genesis 1 God creates man and woman at the same time but afterwards he creates Eve separately... Any mention of the name "Lilith" in the old testament doesn't seem to refer to a human, but is mentioned more like the name of a species... some scholars belive it was a bird, or possibly even some kind of demon that may or may not have been important to early Hebrews...or they borrowed the word from some other religion. Happened a lot back on the day.

I look at it more like Disney's Hercules. It borrows the names and general concept of the Greek Pantheon (but changes Hercules' name to the Roman one for some reason...) but does the story in a widly different way...I've never seen someone call out the lack of Hercules/Heracles's brother Iphicles as a huge plot hole in that film... yes he had a brother... or the fact that it features Zeus not as a massive perv with no respect for marriage, whether its his own or his great-granddaughter... Yea that's right... Harecles' mother was also Zeus' great-granddaughter... and that's not even the worst case of incest committed by the King of the Greek Gods...

Same with Hazbin. It borrows some of the characters, that doesn't mean they'll borrow the whole mythology... even if it sometimes would be interesting if they did.... they had 8 episodes... probably wouldn't have time to touch on Adam's messed up sons. Its too busy focusing on how bad both his marriages went.

My point is if you keep expecting creators do do something specific that they never promised they would...don't get mad at them when they don't do that thing... Its not their fault your expectations were wildly different from their plans.

#usagi rants #hazbin hotel #hazbin hotel rant #though not directed at the actual show this time

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canageek · 7 months

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Finished reading the print copy of Destroyer of Light. I think this is the first time I've reread that particular arc because I wasn't a fan of it originally, but I think I got a lot more out of it this time, it's more subtle than I remember and I really like the characterization of Persephone in it.

The book feels really nice and solid, and seeing the comic and print really brings out the artwork, there's something stronger about it when you see it on the white page with the black art, I think the contrast really helps make it pop in a way it doesn't on my computer screen. Like the art is always good, but there's just something special about seeing it in print.

My only complaint about the book is with that style of binding, I think the inner margin needs to be larger because I had to hold the pages really far apart to see the inner edge. That puts extra strain on the cover and binding, and you can tell that the cover is already beginning to warp. I hope future volumes this can be fixed, the outer margin is quite generous so it wouldn't be hard to sacrifice a little of that to make the inner margin larger.

Oh and there's a little wear around the edges of the cover but that's not something that bothers me at all, I get most of my books that used book stores so I'm used to battered covers.

Oh and I almost forgot, I really love the section of the back explaining the Greek myth inspirations and how the comic deviates from them, you have to love a comic with citations.

If you want to read the comic (and you definitely should) it's on Tumblr but I strongly recommend the reading experience of reading it on it's main website, it's much easier to navigate through though I'm not sure if that has all of the commentary about its inspiration. https://theiamania.thecomicseries.com/archive/

Otherwise it's all well tagged on the author's Tumblr: @a-gnosis

For this particular volume the main content warnings would be abortion and incest, and possibly if you have trauma about mother child relationships, it's not currently the healthiest one in this issue.

Let me know if you enjoy reading this, I'm thinking of writing up more book recommendations like this, I just read some really good books by Tanya Huff and Richard Baker that I'm tempted to share.

I should also remember to copy and paste this over to my blog, somewhere that's a bit more searchable.

#comic #queer webcomic #webcomic #webcomics #review #recommendation

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the-indie-owl · 2 years

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Hey, I was wondering if you've ever heard of Phorcys and Ceto, monstrous creatures of the sea and the supposed parents of Medusa and her sisters. If they appeared in SpongeBob, how would you interpret them?

Hmmm, I would probably change them into making the Couple as King and Queen of Sea Monsters like how they are Sea Monsters in the Show. It would be something on how Typhon and Echidna are known as the Parents of All Monsters (only in Land, that being both the Surface and Underworld as well), so think of it as if Phorycs and Typhon were actually Two Rulers of Different Types of Monsters (Land and Sea) similar to how Neptune and Poseidon are shown in the Universe when said Gods are both Rulers of the Sea.

I would likely have to scrap off of the idea of the Two Sea Monster Couple having The Graeae Sisters and the Gorgons (including Medusa) as their Daughters and even have Medusa be biological raised by Humans since she was born a Human in the First Place before Athena cursed her. (Maybe they could at least adopt the Gorgon Sisters?)

Mythology maybe weird in its own unique way, but if Companies like Nickelodeon itself would change some of the Myths and Relations, you would probably best have to scrap off the Incest and even make some of the Characters have different families since Monsters/Beasts can't give birth to Humans in Real Life which is the same as how Humans can't give birth to Animals in Real Life.

Anyway, you're probably asking as to how I would view their portrayals if Nickelodeon were to touch them in their most iconic show about Sea Creatures. I'd say they would probably make them into Ruthless Rulers of Sea Monsters like I mentioned, with Phorcys as the Main King of the Deep Seas of the Ocean and that he is somehow looking out for revenge (possibly for Neptune). Of course, maybe Phorycs could be Rock Bottom's own version of Neptune since he is the God of Hidden Dangers of the Deep, so I think maybe somewhere in this universe The Rock Bottomites would have their own Main God that being the God of the Deep Seas himself.

If there was at least an Episode featuring Phorycs and Ceto, I would at least see it as a Special like how they did with "The Clash of Triton" (even though it was lame but I still liked it). Phorycs and Ceto in my view would be portrayed as Antagonists and that they are out looking for Revenge on one of the Two Main Sea Kings.

Upon realizing that the Bikini Bottom is somehow in Danger, SpongeBob would have to at least face up the Greek Gods of Sea Monsters themselves with the help of his Friends. In order to save their own City, SpongeBob would somehow face up the Trials that Phorycs challenges him with a Couple of Sea Monsters since I think Ceto would suggest her Husband to why not give the Sponge and his Friends a challenge?

SpongeBob has faced a lot of Hard and Easy Challenges over the Years, so I think the Trials that he would have to face up that Phorycs ordered would possibly be hard than you expect, It wouldn't be that easy compare to "Neptune's Spatula" since Phorycs would be more brutal than Neptune and Poseidon.

Of course, SpongeBob does win these Harsh Trials after defeating the Other Sea Monsters especially with the Last Trial as Phorycs betrayals his promise that he and his gang would have the Bikini Bottom back as Phorycs and Ceto would have to take over the entire town with the help of their Sea Monster folks.

However, that quickly gets ruined all in the End since Neptune comes in and stops Phorycs as he banishes him, his wife, and the Other Sea Monsters down beneath the Depths of the Ocean where they wouldn't wreck the entire Sea with SpongeBob finally having his entire City back thanks to their Main God.

I will probably have them in my own prequel, with Phorycs as Neptune's Arch-Enemy (and even have Ceto be Rivals with Amphitrite). I think that would be something that Nickelodeon would do if they ever touched The Water Deities of Sea Monsters, make them more Antagonistic with them being Ruthless and Cruel, and perhaps have them as Evil Versions of Neptune and Amphitrite (or at least a Rock Bottom version if we're going for an other suggestion of Rock Bottom having their own Dark Neptune).

#ask answered #indie text #violetrose art #spongebob squarepants #greek mythology #roman mythology #phorycs #ceto #neptune #spongebob headcanons #greco roman mythology #spongebob #the spongebob movie sponge on the run #sponge on the run #clash of the deities #ancient times before spongebob #the spongebob greek roman prequel project

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neechees · 2 years

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Ooooh spill. 👀 what's the beef on Lore Olympus?

LO is a "feminist retelling" comic about the rape of Persephone from Greek Mythology, but in a sort of modern fantasy setting. It changes some stuff up from the original mythos that makes it a pretty bad misunderstanding of the source material at best. There's a lot of things that I just find really, really creepy. Apparently it wasnt always like that exactly (or like, SOME plot points werent) & some elements were influenced by the readers of its older form giving suggestions that the comic artist decided to indulge in when they made the more, completed story, & the rape scene itself is handled with pretty good care, but there's just other stuff the artist did that they really really did not need to & made it creeper. There's a great video here that I'll link here if you want a more detailed run down, but I'll list some points on why I am a part of the LO haterer crew:

The rapist of Persephone is changed from Hades to Apollo specifically so Hades can come in to be the White Knight

Persepone is 19 & the artist/writer frequently makes sure to let us know just how sheltered, childish, & inexperienced she is, & is drawn to be very petite compared to other characters, & its very often used as plot points or for humor. She doesn't understand a lot of sexual references (like, she thinks someone "sleeping their way to the top" literally means napping), she doesn't understand why lingerie is sexy or why her being naked is inappropriate, she trusts very easily, she acts very cute & silly & playful, & acts like a teen. Persephine being sweet, innocent, & immature as character trait in general would be fine in theory, except the artist also constantly sexualizes her at the same time while specifically reminding us how innocent & childish she is in the same breath. She's frequently drawn naked or semi nude or in composing positions, & this is all done in contrast specifically to Hades' (& other characters) maturity & age. She's literally more sexualized than Aphrodite

There's a giant age gap between Hades & Persephone that's mentioned & critisized maybe twice by other characters, & then dropped by those same characters & later treated as okay or ignored. Like the artist got rid of the incest that was there in the myth, but they make an effort to frequently point out this age gap both in experience, maturity, and power imbalances throughout the comic (but don't seem to show it as a bad thing?)

On that note, Hades is said to be a jaded man in his late thirties or early forties and obsessed with Persephone but its portrayed as like... "cute". He's kind of an incel. One character points out that Hades looks like Persephone's "gross old dad". Hades is obsessed with her to the point that he tortures a college student who photographed him & Persephone together for a tabloid because he was worried it would affect her image. The artist said the couple is supposed to be troubling & a critical look of the dangers of this type of relationship, but based on the way characters almost never see it as bad (& those who do are portrayed as unreasonable) & the way these two are frequently portrayed as "cute" I kinda doubt that. And the artist has done multiple pieces of porn of them in addition to "cute" ship art on patreon so.

Demeter is portrayed as an abusive, controlling mother, rather than the loving mother she was in the myth, angry her daughter was kidnapped and raped

Aside from all that, the art style to me is just annoying. The coloring is too monochrome, & the character design is boring & everyone looks the same

I'm sure I missed a couple of things to tie this together but its just a shitty retelling tbh

#this is also all hosted on a site frequented mostly by girls in their early teens so #rape tw #abuse mention

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bipirate · 2 years

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@llycaons tagged me to list 5 books i want to read this year! this is an excellent way to start off the year now that i’ve fully settled into reading again. let’s see what i still have on my shelf/in my bookmarks that i haven’t gotten around to

the priory of the orange tree - i got this one for christmas and i’m really looking forward to it! i heard a lot of good stuff about it and im very fond of fantasy, especially when it’s unique and puts its own spin on genre tropes, which this seems to do

she who became the sun - i dont remember where i heard about this title but i had this on my list for a while and the premise seems super interesting. i’m thinking i might save this one for my next book club pick, bc i think it might be good to get my irl friends out of their comfort zones and make them read a story set in 14th century china lmao

the bedlam stacks - i recently finished 2 other works by this author (the watchmaker of filigree street and its sequel the lost future of pepperharrow) and while i have my issues with those books, i did enjoy them. ive actually had this book on my shelf for longer, so i’m excited to finally get to it and give it a proper go. if a book is set in the 19th century and there’s some vague magical elements going on, im already interested tbh

female general eldest princess - ive seen this one around in my cdrama mutual circle and honestly you got me at ‘lesbians’. i heard there’s some not great stuff in it (colorism/racism and perhaps incest i think? i might be wrong) but i also heard it’s a mostly well written romance with really interesting political intrigue

circe - okay so first things first, i did read the song of achilles when i was 18 and i did love it at the time, but i do have a lot of problems with it now, most of them concerning the characterisation of patroclus. however, after all these years i am still interested in greek mythology and i think the concept of retelling ancient myths is cool, so i’m going to give this a shot

honorary mention to the empress of salt and fortune, because cor mentioned it! i already started the audiobook for this a while ago, but i haven’t finished it yet. it hasn’t quite grabbed me yet, but i like it enough to try and finish it soon.

idk which of my mutuals are into reading atm so i won’t tag anyone, but if youre reading this and you want to do this, tag me! i’d love to get some recs :)

#tag games #thanks cor!!

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antiloreolympus · 3 years

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Yo! I was reading Lore Olympus yesterday and... yeah, it was a mess. While reading it, I pushed down several things that felt like red flags but kept reading it because I got absorbed in the drama. It might've been fate but I found a really good set of tiktok videos that basically criticized the sh*t out of it and validated my concerns.

Honestly, finding out the creator of LO was a white woman was... not a surprise, considering how the story is written. It butchered a lot of characters in Greek mythology (the most obvious being Apollo bc from my understanding he was actually ok but hey! The creator obviously had to make somebody the flipping villain to continue her unnecessary trauma plot 🙄) . That is a major problem for me. I think it's all about personal interpretation of Greek myth when reading it, but when you aren't Greek, when you use Greek gods and goddesses, dieties people still in fact worship (I didn't know about that fact until yesterday), as warped characters in your story to advance your (bad) plot, it's not good at all. It's basically taking parts and pieces of a culture and using them to satisfy your own wants, which is literally what white artisans have been doing for what feels like forever at this point.

Ignoring the obvious plot issues/inconsistencies, there was excessive amounts of emphasis on the age gap between Persephone and Hades. The age gap would have been okay because Persephone is an adult and can make her own decisions but the way the creator had this... gross infantilization of Persephone did not make it feel ok. Her mentality and way of acting was too similar to a child and made me wonder if she and Hades had more of a father daughter relationship. And it was intentional! I mean, this doesn't even bring up the casual incest in Greek mythology. (which honestly I think it's just something you have to accept when reading Greek/Roman myth because it was pretty normalized so I just kinda have to shrug my shoulders yk?)

Also the art style. There... there aren't many ways to differentiate between characters, esp the female ones, besides color and their outfit that episode. I didn't even realize it until I watched the tiktoks I was talking about I actually liked the art style despite its issues. I thought it was nice. I'm no artist though so I'll accept any criticisms about the art at any time.

As my last point, there was this harmful concept and possibly even a glorification of the female cast members keeping silent when it came to abuse from men. This is most obviously seen when it comes to Zeus and his subjects (ex. Zeus scrotching Demeters fields when she didn't agree to harboring a mortal he cheated on his wife with) or with Persephone and Apollo. The abuse of power from men is a present theme in the story that reflects real life very well. But at this point the story is just normalizing it instead of trying to fix it. I feel like somewhere in the second season the creator is going to try and have one of the female goddesses try to take their power back or try to shed light on the casual abuse amongst the gods and Olympians. (I'm still on the first so this is just a prediction but honestly, I don't think I want to give that woman any more clout by reading her weird story 💢). Also, I don't necessarily mind the author having SA because it reflects the themes of the story but I don't think she's doing it properly at all because of the casual way she is normalizing abuse rather than making her female ensemble fight against it. In this story, I feel like using that type of trauma to fuel a storyline makes it read off as trauma porn, basically making Persephone (hell, even Hades) the victim of something and completely innocent.

All and all, as someone who likes webcomics I'm disappointed in myself for not listening to my gut about this and being more critical about what I read. I don't want to be consuming problematic content, esp not without properly analyzing why it's problematic. But nevertheless, I won't harbor too much guilt about reading a good portion of LO haha! I hope my points make sense tho.

Thanks for listening and have a good day! :)

You too and thank you for sharing! ✨

#anti lo #anti lore olympus #lo critical #lore olympus critical

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demi-shoggoth · 3 years

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2021 Reading Log pt 28

It’s been a while since I posted one of these. The school year has started again, and I am teaching full time, in person, with full classes. As case numbers of COVID-19 keep rising, and our district basically pretends nothing is wrong. It’s very stressful, and I am exhausted by the end of the day. So my reading time has been pretty strongly curtailed.

135a. Sons of Cain by Peter Vronsky. I got farther into this book (about 80 of 330 pages) than I typically do with books I decide to abandon. The book starts strong, with an account of how the author accidentally, unknowingly, crossed paths with a serial killer escaping a crime scene. But as it tries to explain why serial killers exist and give an overview of their history, it becomes apparent that the author doesn’t know what he’s talking about with regards to evolution or paleoanthropology and comes at a very minority opinion with regards to neuroscience and behavior. His hypothesis is, basically, that all humans were serial killers until around 40,000 years ago, and that being hyper-aggressive and sexually violent is an evolutionary atavism. Hence the title: all humans are “sons of Cain”. He also discounts the humanity of Neanderthals, believes that all interbreeding between humans and Neanderthals is the product of rape, and has nice things to say about the writings of (previously mentioned child molesting psychologist) John Money. By the time the author claimed that rape, child abuse and incest were so universally common in pre-modern society as to be unremarkable, I gave up in disgust. I know that “oh, this person who’s writing about true crime is really a sick fetishist” is a clichéd criticism of the genre and one that has been applied far too widely… but this book gave me really icky vibes, and I do not want to have anything more to do with it or this author.

136. Hallucinations by Oliver Sacks. Now here’s an author who writes about the brain and knows what he’s talking about. I think part of the reason I dislike the “science book as memoir” one often finds is that Sacks did them so effortlessly well that other authors often seem clumsy or lackluster in comparison. This is one of Sacks’ last books, on the topic of a wide variety of hallucinations. Sacks discusses the history of psychology, medicine and literature with the various subcategories he discusses, along with patient histories and his own personal experiences. One chapter I found especially surprising was “Altered States”, dead set in the middle of the book, where Sacks talks about his drug abuse in the 1960s. I had no idea that beloved science communicator Oliver Sacks had given himself the DTs from chloral hydrate withdrawal, or that he decided to become a writer after an amphetamine binge.

137. Women and Other Monsters by Jess Zimmerman. This book made me cry. Twice. I wasn’t in the best mental state when I started, and the author’s incisive personal essays hit home in a lot of ways. We have suffered similarly in some ways. The book looks to reinterpret Greek mythology in a feminist light, Zimmerman does not look to rewrite the myths (like some people online with their revisionist, girlboss Medusa being protected by Athena, for example), instead using the qualities of its many female monsters (Medusa, Scylla and Charybdis, the Sphinx, Sirens and Furies) as positive attributes in a misogynist society. It’s okay to want things, to be angry, to know more than men do. The book is very powerful, and I’m glad I read it, but I’m also glad I took it slow and waited a few days between my initial read and finishing it.

138. Delicious by Rob Dunn and Monica Sanchez. This book is a family affair, written by a husband and wife team. Its thesis is that a) animals, especially primates, go to great lengths to find foods that are tasty; b) that incorporating more delicious foods was the caloric boost that early hominids needed to evolve the large brains/small jaws combo that lead to modern humans; and c) the human search for novelty and flavor spurred cultural and technological innovations throughout our history. The book sits right on the razor’s edge of science and speculation; there is data included throughout, but a lot of bold claims are made with relatively little evidence (food does not fossilize well, after all). The authors are at least open about the speculative nature, which I do appreciate, and their writing style is genial and readable.

139. Death’s Summer Coat by Brandy Schillace. I found this book because I had read the author’s most recent book, Mr. Humble and Doctor Butcher, earlier this year. In Death’s Summer Coat, Schillace argues that the modern Western approach to death is stunted because we try to deny that death exists up until the last minute, and that we should discuss and plan for our deaths while still healthy in order to make the transition more bearable. Hence the “summer coat” analogy. That’s all well and good, but the book spends a lot of time introducing and summarizing, multiple times per chapter, as if either reticent to actually make the argument or just padding the page count. It’s not a bad book, but there are better books out there about death and cultural responses to it.

140. A Fatal Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum by Emma Southon. This book is about murder in ancient Rome. Or more accurately, how “murder” as we understand it wasn’t really a concept, but people killing people was rife. Roman law was mostly property law as opposed to criminal law for citizens, and non-citizens were basically considered non-persons, so killing them was unremarkable. The book covers various cases that we actually have recorded in various ways, revealing the deep differences in how their society worked compared to modern Western society (the author is from the UK, and has some amusing things to say about the differences between British and American society as well). The book is very snarky, full of humorous asides and jokes, so if you don’t like your history with a touch of comedy, this probably isn’t for you. But I like that, and I found this book immensely enjoyable.

#reading log #ancient rome #death #classical mythology #feminism #food science #anthropology #serial killer #hallucination #oliver sacks

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genericpuff · 1 year

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I really can't wait to see how you write Demeter! Is she going to be the villain?

yaay it's a good day for asks! sorry because I'm about to go on ANOTHER HUGE TANGENT LMAO but I hope it answers your question thoroughly enough ! 😅 (and if it doesn't at all lmk LOL) Demeter's gonna be an interesting one. I think you already know the answer to this, but I really can't stand how she's villainized like some Mother Gothel archetype, especially when it comes to how Rachel portrays it, because everything Demeter thinks/does/says is honestly justified, try as Rachel might to make her seem like some insane overbearing 'evil' stepmother. Everything always comes back to "Demeter bad!" whereas reading her depiction of Persephone is like watching The Little Mermaid as an adult.

(it's very frustrating, to say the least LMAO)

Personally I'm gonna be going for what LO started with, but never followed up on - Demeter wants to see her daughter gain independence, but is fearful of her being taken advantage of and hurt the same way she, her "sisters", and her "mother" was (and yes, I have my own way of tackling the incest and familial labels in a way Rachel could have but didn't, I don't wanna reveal too much but it's very fun and I can't wait to explore it haha). All this is gonna affect how her relationship with her daughter plays out - it won't be exactly like the Hymn of Demeter, focusing solely on Demeter's grief, but it won't be exactly like LO either where it throws aside the purpose and messaging of the original myth entirely. All the gods are nuanced and morally problematic in their own way, and that includes Persephone and Hades.

Honestly, I think the reason why so many myth 'retellings' like LO end up being this Flanderized in their characterizations ("Demeter bad, Persephone good!" and "Zeus bad husband, Hades perfect husband!") is because there's so little material surrounding Persephone and Hades compared to all the others. While this can make it fun for having more freedom in re-interpretations, it unfortunately has the opposite effect as well where people tend to forgo the entire point of the original story so they can have some feel good cute story where Hades was some "soft" husband who did nothing wrong and Persephone was some "boss babe" icon with no nuance in between.

I see this type of fetishization of the original myth in a lot of these interpretations but especially Rachel's work. I'm not sure if "fandomification" is a word that can be used here, but I definitely get the feeling Rachel idolizes and fetishizes Greek myth the same way a lot of young Westerners often idolize and fetishize Japanese lore and content, or, more personally, Indigenous cultures (as I myself am Indigenous, specifically Mi'kmaq) - by reducing it down to its most "consumable" formats and turning it into something more 'palatable' and 'fandom-y' for modern audiences that almost comes across as pandering and demeaning to anyone looking for anything with more depth than a teaspoon (and especially to those who belong to the respective cultures being portrayed through this lens).

This isn't to say that creators have to stick to their lane when writing about other cultures or myths, but you can tell when someone hasn't done their research and is working from a very romanticized template they've built up in their heads. Rachel's, in this case, feels like it's definitely come from her time on Tumblr back in the day, when Hades x Persephone writing prompts were all the rage and people were coming up with all sorts of feel good AU content. The thing with AU prompts like that though is they're just that - prompts, memes, mere thought experiments or hypotheticals, not something that can necessarily work as an actual serious long form story unless you know what you're doing. I think creators who want to go so far as to 're-interpret' these stories through their own lens have a huge responsibility to still recognize and treat the original source material with some semblance of respect. In this regard, LO in its current state really should have stayed as a slice-of-life type series if it wanted to keep things light.

And I'm saying this entirely as someone who grew up on weeb content in the freaking West and got more into Greek myth because of LO. That's why I don't entirely chastise it, fandom-y type stories like LO can definitely help introduce people to cultures and stories they wouldn't have batted an eye at before (as I've started to detest LO over the last year, it's made for even better learning because I've had to research the original myths just to see how Rachel is misfiring on them entirely LMAO) but there comes the added responsibility of making sure you're not erasing or reducing the original material in favor of the silly cutesy stuff. It's an entry point, not the entire course! And that's a responsibility that falls both on the audience and the content's creator, IMO.

Yay, more text dumps! Sorry if a lot of that seems weirdly gatekeepy, it's def not what I'm trying to get across, just trying to voice my own frustrations with the depiction of LO's characters as best I can, I feel like a lot of it comes down to Rachel just not having done proper research and relying solely on tropes and self-fulfilling fantasies. If LO stayed as a slice-of-life thing that would have been fine, there's definitely a place for that sort of feel-good goofy storytelling, but by trying to be super ultra serious, it's tripped over its own feet because that's just not what Rachel is capable of depicting at this moment. She's trying to write a super serious story, but doesn't come across as if she actually takes it seriously by extension and it shows.

TL ; DR: Basically, we're gonna actually hone in on Demeter's trauma from the Titanomachy and how it affects her parenting style and 'controlling' tendencies, not only of Persephone, but of the community of nymphs she's fostered over the years. It's not about whether Demeter is the hero or the villain, because that would be missing the point entirely - it's about her role and experiences as a mother and leader of her community, a woman in a struggling position of power among a patriarchal system, and a mother who lost her child to that same patriarchal system, whether by choice or through forced marriage. No matter how one wishes to tell it, whether it's in tragedy or celebration, you can't have the story of Persephone and Hades without Demeter. That is the core of what I want to focus on and bring back to the retellings of Hades and Persephone.

#keep the questions coming yo #i love answering these #lore olympus critical #lo critical #unpopularloreolympus #ask me anything #ama

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all-seeing-ifer · 4 years

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Greek mythology references in Ulysses Dies at Dawn masterpost

I saw a post a while back by @spacetrashpile analysing all the arthurian references in High Noon Over Camelot, and since I know quite a bit about Greek mythology I figured “hey! I should do something like that for Ulysses Dies at Dawn!” I’m just going to go through each of the songs in order and analyse/explain the references in them - hopefully other people will find it interesting!

“The City”

Starting with the title - Ulysses is the Latin name of Odysseus, legendary king of Ithaca and hero of the epic poem The Odyssey. Interestingly, Ulysses is the only character in UDAD who is given a Latin name instead of a Greek one. There’s a couple of potential reasons for this but the most convincing to me is it’s meant to reflect Ulysses’ opposition to the Olympians, who are all based on the Greek gods.

Jonny calls the story a “labyrinthine task of a twisted tale”, referencing the Greek myth of the Minotaur, which was kept in a labyrinth to hide it from the world. This reference becomes even clearer when we later learn the City’s original name.

This one’s less a reference to Greek mythology and more to like, actual history, but the description of the City expanding to cover the whole planet is reminiscent of Greek expansion in ancient times. Ancient Greece was made up of many city-states, or poleis, which established colonies or “daughter-cities”, mostly in western Asia, or “Asia Minor” as the Greeks and Romans called it.

The story opens at a “run-down gin join” called Calypso’s - Calypso is a sea nymph who plays a fairly major role in The Odyssey, keeping Odysseus/Ulysses trapped on her island for seven years.

Fittingly enough, Calypso’s apparently pays money to Dionysus, whose mythological namesake is the Greek god of wine.

Broken Horses

Ilium is the Ancient Greek name for Troy, the city that Greece went to war against, according to myth,. Part of this war is described in the epic poem The Iliad, in which Odysseus is one of the soldiers laying siege to Troy.

Much like the Trojan War of Greek myth, the siege of Ilium is said to have lasted a decade.

Ulysses’ gambit with the horse statue sending out a signal driving the people of Ilium mad is pretty obviously a reference to the Trojan Horse - the wooden horse the Greeks built as a “peace offering” to the Trojans that they used to sneak their soldiers into the City and that brought them victory in the war. Like in the UDAD version, Odysseus/Ulysses was apparently responsible for coming up with this plan.

“Olympians”

Ulysses’ wife is named Penelope, same as Odysseus’ wife in the myths

The Acheron is the name of one of the five rivers of Hades, along with Styx, Cocytus, Lethe, and Phlegethon

As a sidenote, in Greek mythology Hades is the name of the underworld as well as the name of the God of the dead - fittingly enough reimagined in UDAD as the controller of a vast network of half-dead minds (and also Ashes)

The most powerful families in the City are called the Olympians - the name given to the twelve most important deities in the Greek pantheon

Poseidon Industries is named for Poseidon, Greek god of the sea and one of the twelve Olympians. Jonny calls them “one of the architects of the Ilium War”, which seems like an odd reference since iirc Poseidon doesn’t have a whole lot to do with the Trojan War. I guess that’s just there to give Ulysses a reason to want to rob Poseidon Industries.

In the Odyssey, Poseidon hates Odysseus/Ulysses for attacking his son, a cyclops called Polyphemus. In UDAD this is changed to Ulysses stealing the diamond from Poseidon Industries’ laser, which is also called The Cyclops.

My Name is No One

The song’s title and chorus is a reference to Odysseus’ famous trick for escaping the Polyphemus’ cave. He tells the Polyphemus his name is “no one/nobody” (depending on the translation) so that when he attacks Polyphemus and the cyclops tries to call for help, he calls out “No one is attacking me” which obviously none of the other cyclopes take seriously. (There’s also a great pun in the original Greek based on the Greek words for “no one” and “cunning” being very similar, but it loses a lot in translation)

However, just like in UDAD, Odysseus messes up this plan badly by calling out his real name when he’s still too close to the island of the cyclops. (although in the Odyssey it’s motivated by him wanting Polyphemus to know his name so he can get glory, rather than just being drunk)

Odysseus bests the cyclops by taking out his eye (there’s debate around it but cyclopes are generally depicted as having only one eye). Obviously in UDAD the cyclops is a machine not a monster, so this is replaced with the diamond at the heart of the laser being called its “eye”.

Also, I’m not sure if this is an intentional reference, but there is a fun irony to the fact that in the Odyssey, Odysseus tricks Polyphemus by getting him drunk so he can then blind him, while in UDAD Ulysses steals the eye of the Cyclops while drunk themself.

“Trial By Wits”

As well as My Name is No One, the whole concept of no one knowing anything about Ulysses’ appearance, gender etc. could also be seen as a reference to the “My name is nobody” trick, or possibly just a spin on Odysseus being a kind of “archetypal hero” - they could be anyone!

Heracles is better known by his Latin name, Hercules (son of Zeus, demigod, inhumanly strong and all that jazz)!

Ariadne is the name of the Cretan princess who helped Theseus slay the minotaur

Orpheus is another of the most well-known Greek mythological figures - the main myth surrounding him says he went into the underworld to rescue his dead wife Eurydice

Oedipus is most famous as the main character of a famous tragedy. His parents are given a prophecy that he would kill his father and have sex with his mother, and so decided to abandon him. As is so often the case with Greek oracles, he ended up doing both things anyway, seeing as how he, y’know, didn’t know who his parents were. The mechs apparently chose to reference this in the most mature of ways by having Jonny call Oedipus a motherfucker. Kind of a lot.

Aside from committing both patricide and incest, Oedipus’ other achievements in myth included winning a battle of wits against the Sphinx, a monster that was killing anyone who couldn’t solve its riddle. This monster is reimagined in UDAD as a disease that Oedipus finds a cure for.

Riddle of the Sphinx

The chorus of the song is taken almost word-for-word from the riddle asked of Oedipus by the Sphinx: “What goes on four legs in the morning, two legs at noon, and three legs in the evening?” The answer to the riddle is “man” - crawls on all fours as a baby, walks on two legs as an adult, and walks with a cane (third leg) in old age. The Mechs being the Mechs, this is made completely literal in the world of UDAD.

“Ulysses’ Will”

Like the Oedipus of myth, UDAD Oedipus also ends up killing his father and marrying his mother without knowing. Since he’s replaced his eyes with data sockets by the time he helps kidnap Ulysses, it’s pretty strongly implied that he blinded himself like mythological Oedipus as well.

The “twenty years of sirens” could be a reference to the twenty years Odysseus spends away from Ithaca in the Iliad and Odyssey

Sirens

The sirens were half-bird half-human creatures that Odysseus encountered as part of the Odyssey and that tried to lure him to his death with promises of knowledge.

As well as referencing this story, the line “let the lotus set you free” references another episode of the Odyssey, where Odysseus and his crew arrive on the island of the Lotus-Eaters. Anyone who eats the Lotus fruits falls into a state of apathy and will never want to leave the island, so it’s a fitting episode to reference in a song about Ulysses drugging themself to escape their memories of war.

“Trial By Strength”

Heracles’ backstory is essentially the same in UDAD as in the original myths: one of the many children of Zeus’ many affairs, except in UDAD Zeus has affairs with women from “the lower levels”, instead of just mortal women.

Favoured Son

The tasks Heracles performs for Zeus are a reference to the most famous myth about Heracles - the twelve labours he performs to atone for killing his family.

The song references “the ferryman” who takes people into the Underworld. In Greek mythology the dead travel to the Underworld in a boat rowed by the ferryman Charon.

In both the myth and in UDAD there are...what you might you might call “extenuating circumstances” for Heracles killing his family - in the myth he’s driven mad by Zeus’ wife Hera (bc she’s very angy about Zeus having all those bastard children with mortal women) but since Hera doesn’t play a role in UDAD this is changed to him being framed by Zeus himself.

In addition to being king of the gods, Zeus is also the god of thunder - which is where Heracles’ nickname “The Thunderbolt of Zeus” comes from

“Loose Threads”

Heracles and Orpheus “Backing up Jason on the fleece job” is a reference to the myth of Jason’s quest for the Golden Fleece along with his crew (the Argonauts), which included Heracles and Orpheus.

Hylas was Heracles’ servant and another member of the Argonauts. While on the quest he was kidnapped by nymphs, and depending on which version of the myth you’re looking at, either fell in love with them and stayed there forever, or was murdered by them (Hylas is also the only character referenced I had to google to even know who they were lol)

Heracles telling Ariadne that “Your dad helped me out once” is presumably a reference to the seventh labour of Heracles: capturing the Cretan bull. Now the story of the Cretan bull is actually really long and ties into a bunch of other myths but essentially it was sent to Ariadne’s father, King Minos, as proof that he was the rightful ruler of Crete. However, Minos ended up helping Heracles by letting him take the bull with him to prove that he’d successfully caught it (which seeing as the bull was destroying Crete at that point doesn’t seem like a huge favour on Minos’ part, but ok)

Trial By Song

UDAD Orpheus shares the mythical Orpheus’ main defining trait: his skill at singing that he used to help him on his journey to the underworld.

Trial By Song is a lot more metaphorical than all the others so there’s not that many direct references to the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice in the lyrics - probably the most direct one is “But all the landmarks moved as I walked past/Now I can’t look back”, which references Orpheus’ deal with Hades that he can take Eurydice back to the world of the living as long as he doesn’t look back at her.

“The viper town that bled me dry” could also be a reference to Eurydice’s death from a snake bite.

“Hades”

UDAD Orpheus’ motivation is the same as mythical Orpheus - wanting to bring back their dead lover from Hades.

Ulysses, Heracles, and Orpheus all visiting the “underworld” is taken directly from mythology (although unlike in UDAD, Ulysses/Odysseus never actually speaks to Hades).

Underworld Blues

In Heracles’ confrontation with Hades, he says that “I was sent here your dog to seize/Of my tasks, of my tasks/This was to be the last”. There’s a couple of points here - the mythology reference is to the last of the twelve labours of Hercules: capturing Hades’ guard dog Cerberus. However, I do wonder whether this is meant to be literal (in which case guys, why are we not talking about the fact that Ashes obtained a pet dog while in The City?), or if this is a similar case to all the mentions of ‘horses’ in High Noon Over Camelot actually being about motorbikes.

Orpheus singing to Hades and trying to convince them to release Eurydice is also taken directly from Greek myth, except instead of being moved by Orpheus’ song and agreeing to release his love like in the myth, Ashes just tells him he’s poor for a bit and then says he should go commit some crimes.

“Trial By Love”:

The general concept of Ariadne’s backstory - her helping Theseus fight the minotaur only for him to abandon her - is the same basic idea as the myth of Ariadne and Theseus. Although UDAD Ariadne is at least a bit more fortunate in the sense that she wasn’t truly in love with her Theseus, and he also doesn’t straight up leave her on a deserted island.

Ariadne’s family creating the minotaur is also part of her character in the myth. The difference is that in UDAD the minotaur was created intentionally, while the mythological minotaur was the result of Poseidon making Ariadne’s mother fall in love with the Cretan Bull as punishment for King Minos not sacrificing it to him (I said the Cretan Bull story tied into a bunch of other myths!)

The presence of the minotaur in the City is yet another thing that makes even more sense when we learn about the City originally being called Labyrinth!

Ties That Bind

Ariadne’s family name is Minos, same as the name of her mythical father King Minos.

Ariadne describes her family’s actions as casting a “dark horned shadow” over her, which references the typical depiction of the minotaur as a man with a bull’s head and horns.

In the myth of the Minotaur, Ariadne helps Theseus by giving him a ball of string that he then unwinds as he walks through the Labyrinth, letting him find his way out again. In UDAD this is changed to “strings of code”, that shut down the minotaurs programming. (And if you think that pun’s bad, just wait until we get to Torn Suits!)

The song’s title also brings to mind string or thread, so it can be seen as a subtler reference to Ariadne’s gift to Theseus. Same for Ariadne’s line about “heartstrings long since cut”.

“The Daidala”

Daedalus, the leader of the Suits, shares a name with the mythical craftsman and father of Icarus

He is rumoured to “trade as an Olympian under the name Hephaestus” - a fitting alias as Hephaestus was the god of craftsmen and artisans like Daedalus

The rumour that he killed his son for “getting too ambitious” references the myth of Icarus, who famously died after literally flying too close to the sun using wings held together with wax. The heat of the sun caused the wax to melt and Icarus to fall into the sea. The story is often interpreted as a warning about the dangers of ambition.

Interestingly, it could also reference another myth surrounding Daedalus - one in which Daedalus kills his nephew Talos because he was jealous of his achievements.

Daedalus is also apparently the architect of The City, which was originally known as Labyrinth. This once again references the labyrinth which held the minotaur, and which Minos forced Daedalus to design. Considering the labyrinth’s purpose in myth, it seems like an appropriate name for a city that keeps all its inhabitants trapped with no way out.

Presumably the Daidala in the title refers to the City: Daedalus’ finest creation. In Homeric Greek, daidala is a word that refers to finely crafted objects such as armour.

This track also has another reference to the Orpheus and Eurydice myth when Orpehus offers to sacrifice himself to open the vault - “But he can’t see it through can he? Flinches, looks back. And it doesn’t work.”

Torn Suits

This song is notable for having quite possibly the worst pun in Mechanisms history - “Ulysses pulls out their snub-nosed laser and fires the last shot, splitting the beam across twelve axes”. This references one of the climactic scenes of the Odyssey, where Ulysses/Odysseus wins an archery competition against his wife’s suitors by shooting an arrow through twelve axe heads. (get it, axes as in the weapons becomes axes as in the plural of axis do you get it?????)

Another, marginally less bad pun is Heracles getting “the lion’s share” of the beams, referencing the popular image of Heracles wearing the skin of a lion he killed as one of his labours.

“Sunrise”

The code to Ulysses’ vault: Elysium, is another word for the Elysian Fields. In certain Greek religions, this was an afterlife separate from Hades’ world where heroes and those chosen by the gods would go after they died.

Ulysses’ vault is revealed to contain the “sole surviving oak tree”, under which Penelope is buried. While it’s not as direct a reference as some of the others, this is pretty clearly inspired by the way Odysseus proves his true identity to Penelope at the end of the Odyssey - by telling her that he carved their bed from a tree still rooted to the ground, something only the two of them know.

The track ends with an homage to Homer’s use of similes in the Odyssey: “And as the weary hound, once more at its master’s feet after so long, lays down with the sunlight warming its fur, breathing its last – even so did the eyes of Ulysses close forever.” Not only is this stylistically identical to Homer’s similes, it also doubles as a reference to Odysseus’ dog Argos, who waited for him for twenty years and finally died when he saw Odysseus again.

Elysian Fields

This is possibly a bit of a stretch but the image of Ulysses lying beneath the last tree, next to where Penelope is buried, especially with how they say they’re “with my beloved” and “beside my wife” really brings to mind the scene in the Odyssey where Odysseus and Penelope lie in their tree-bed together for the first time since Odysseus’ return. Which, incidentally, is theorised by some to be the “real” final scene of the Odyssey and everything after that was added on later, but that’s another story.

That’s everything I’ve picked up on but it’s possible there’s more I’ve missed so let me know if there’s any more! I’d like to thank the Mechs for giving me an opportunity to put my useless and extremely niche knowledge to good use!

#the mechanisms #ulysses dies at dawn #udad #ifer rambles

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rappaccini · 3 years

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tua s1 rewatch

1x07 | og rewatch

0:00

'one is the loneliest number' really should've been a luther song. but it works here nonetheless

+"doctor terminal" is name-dropped here as one of the villains baby harold is play-fighting. he was also the man behind the terminauts, the robots who attack the academy in the comic-equivalent of the hazel/cha cha fight.

here he is.

also i... think it's hilarious and disheartening how the show accurately predicted that the greatest antagonist to the umbrella academy would be toxic, entitled fans who get angry that the hargs are imperfect, try to groom their faves into one-dimensionally perfect, pure love interests while pitting them against the others (and that vanya being flattened into a perfect girlfriend would be her downfall) and completely miss the point. they were smart enough to predict their own fandom.

and it's baffling how in season 2 they... let those fans walk all over them. wack.

also i hate how the show tries to make leonard evil by showing us that he is a lonely, bullied, abused child who's so unsafe that he has to kill his dad. rather than just making him an entitled fanboy, they made him a Bad Victim. more foreshadowing for what they'd ultimately do to vanya: Bad Victims are apparently so much worse than the people who hurt them.

anyway. god how much would it sting if we had no clue harold was shady until this moment?

so much of the harold plot is so smart, and so much is underbaked.

i feel like making the conductor-type a toxic fanboy is brilliant- it also hammers in that celebrity and how literally even their villains prefer vanya's family to her. i think that needs to stay. i think that needs some work to get rid of the dents in the plate, but it's very, very solid as an idea.

the family car even has the same plates. tua is stuffed to the brim with greek myths: icarus, hermes, cronus the child-eater, the labyrinth and the monster at its heart being hotel oblivion, the pseudo-incest, five as odysseus... it's got scope.

so it looks like the kids' hero names are show canon too. i get why the show avoided talking about them: 'kraken' makes no sense as diego's name because he can't hold his breath like his comics counterpart. and asking people to remember 'luther is both one and spaceboy' might be a lot. it's simpler to just keep it to the numbers and names.

their numbers matter a lot more than their hero names anyway.

constant: the conductor-type gets the journal

variable: in the comics, he kills for it, in the show he fishes it out of the garbage. i like how the evolution ties klaus into the tragedy! and how thematically, this all happens because the siblings disregard vanya, the way klaus throws something valuable (that also happens to contain some serious symbology with his trauma) in the trash bc he'd rather numb himself to his issues than face them.

9:35

"the sonny to your cher"

man. why did they not set this show in the 80s, where sonny and cher would've been a much more current cultural touchstone (and where the sonny and cher comedy hour, as an early 70s tv hit, would've been a show that vanya and leonard would've been aware of and have likely watched as teens/20somethings). i swear the writers keep using old references and tech, which makes the 2010s setting so baffling. you clearly want to make this a period piece. so just make it a period piece.

13:26

diego hunting the conductor-type is a comics constant. five and allison joining him is a show addition.

(also why on earth doesn't the academy discover helen's corpse. it's a much easier sell of absolute danger than 'he killed his father, vanya!')

and i love that five gets knocked on his ass with a wound. it's transparently just a way to get him out of commission yet again, but i think it works well.

29:00

okay in hindsight the luther/klaus plot is pure filler. it's just to give them something to do. it's fun, but it's just for that.

i do like how klaus's addiction has steadily been used to foreshadow vanya's power suppression, and that his arc is to do with resolving to try and beat it though.

35:47

more of that Good Phantom Shit: the conductor-type taking the ingenue to a secluded home on a lake to hone her craft.

40:54

klaus meeting god is a constant. and so is being rejected by said god, mentioning he's an agnostic, and not getting a clear answer as to who he was made by.

god's a cowboy and he meets him because of being tortured to death by hazel and cha-cha in the dallas arc in the comic.

god's a girl, and he meets her because... of being killed by a furry in the show.

tbh i prefer the comic. a little less superfluous. idk why exactly it changed- maybe to avoid the complication of bringing a horse on set. but the setting's different because there aren't exactly any deserts in toronto.

and klaus having a near-death experience and hallucinating his father? straight from the comics, but it's hotel oblivion.

it was an interesting addition here, but i'm not so sure it has as strong an effect as it would if it were during his overdose. regardless, i'm sure it's here because we need reginald to resolve the mystery of his death by telling us he killed himself.

54:30

i love the ending. and i love the contrast of the days that were and weren't: where everything goes perfect and everything goes wrong (even if i think episode 6 ultimately shouldn't have been here). i love the break into act three.

despite all my little misgivings about filler, i do really think it works here. for what this season is, being a little too big for its own good, i think the filler plots work to build character, theme and get us to the plot, even if it's slower than we need.

i just wish that the show had streamlined the leonard plot more. they had something really special and fucked it up. maybe next time, someone'll get it right.

101 | 102 | 103 | 104 | 105 | 106 | x | 108 | 109 | 110 | overall

#tua s1 rewatch #tua tv #tua comic

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