#vash is the jesus figure here
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while i get where the wolfwood-judas comparison comes from with the tristamp dynamics, i find the accompanying knives-lucifer comparison hollow.
imo wolfwood and knives are 2 different interpretations of judas: one who betrays because he literally must; he has no choice, he is being directed by a higher power; one who doesn't really want to do it but is compelled, and whose betrayal catches jesus off guard. And then the one who jesus has always known would betray him; one who would embrace the divinity of his call to betray, who would if given the chance crucify jesus himself to achieve the desired ends because he loves jesus so deeply and fiercely that who else but himself should get the honor to kill him and bring about the resurrection.
#like idk the lucifer bit rings hollow to me bc like#it's about his relationship to vash#vash is the jesus figure here#his relationship to knives is not one of jesus to the tempter#his relationship to knives is one of someone that he loves deeply and who loves him deeply#repeatedly betraying hurting and violating him for what knives believes is vash's/the world's own good#and imo his love for vash >>> his hatred of humanity#i think 98 had the best case for an old testament-flavored character parallel tho and in that case...knives is eve#he's literally eve#he eats the apple. he learns the evil of humans. he forces vash out of their eden#but also i am. biased against anything with lucifer bc lucifer is but an OC in a bible fanfic au where the serpent was the satan from job#was Satan the big baddie himself#so.laduhflsdiuhf#anyways as a certified trashy messy jesus/judas lover the idea that it wouldn't work with plantcest is wild to me
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This is it; this is the Big 'Un that's been knocking around in my head since the bookclub's inception.
When it comes to mentions of the biblical parallels in Trigun, I've seen that Wolfwood is most frequently discussed as a Judas figure. I think it's important, though, to note that carrying out the Judas role to Vash's Jesus was a job he was ordered to take, and it's one he went through the motions of following while having the ulterior motive of killing the one who gave him the order in the first place. In fact, when Wolfwood does turn traitor, it's actually Knives and the GHG he chooses to betray. He ends up Judas-ing the guys who assigned him to the Judas mission - that's some sweet irony!
And as Wolfwood's time in the story draws to an end, he takes the path completely contrary to Judas' ignominious end by suicide. He instead takes a leap of faith and dares to place his trust in Vash's vision for humanity's future. His faith remains imperfect, but in the midst of all his doubt and uncertainty, he persists anyway.
This last stand of his becomes Wolfwood's ultimate affirmation of his devotion to Vash's ideals, and he effectively becomes a martyr, which places him far outside the image of Judas. In fact, I think that when we look back on his character arc as a whole, we can see how it more neatly lines up in trajectory with the story of another apostle: Peter.
Like Peter in the gospel narratives, Wolfwood finds it difficult to have the kind of faith that is asked of him. Vash goes into his battle with Rai Dei insisting to Wolfwood that he can finish the conflict without taking a life, but Wolfwood intervenes against Vash's wishes because he was worried about Rai Dei's next move. Peter sees Jesus walking on water and goes out to join him, but with the rough winds blowing around him, Peter becomes overwhelmed by fear and begins to sink. After these failures of faith in their respective stories, Peter and Wolfwood are then chastised by the men they follow.
Matthew 14:31 (NRSV) - Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"
And it's these struggles with doubt, these moments of fear and cynicism overtaking faith that are so instrumental to the Christian perspective on salvation with its message of "You are flawed by nature, but you are loved beyond all comprehension nonetheless. Accept this love that it may save you and change you."
In Peter's case, although he is singled out multiple times for his failures (e.g. denying Jesus three times), he still holds a special place of prominence among Jesus' disciples. The 21st chapter of John features a conversation between Peter and the resurrected Jesus in which Peter affirms his love for Jesus three times (a reversal of the three times he denied Jesus), and Jesus responds by instructing Peter to care for his flock. After Jesus ascends to Heaven, Peter continues the work set out for him in building the early church until his eventual martyrdom, which, according to church tradition, occurs via upside-down crucifixion (see Caravaggio's rendition here). Interestingly, Wolfwood's martyrdom also involves lots of grievous bodily harm being dealt by crosses.
So the saint gets brought to death's doorstep, and that brings us to the infamous whiskey bottle
Others have already pointed out that "The Bride" likely refers to the Bride of Christ. This excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church sums up the concept:
The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist. The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom." The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride "betrothed" to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him. The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb.
Now Peter is of particular importance when talking about the Church as an institution, because in the Catholic tradition, Peter is believed to have been granted a distinguished position of authority as the very foundation of Jesus' church, and every Pope is considered a successor to Peter in their occupation of the Church's highest office.
So Peter = Pope = the head of the Bride of Christ. And if we take the reading of Wolfwood as a Peter analogue.... you see where we're going. The Bride of Christ has been sanctified through a powerful demonstration of sacrificial love and prepared for the wedding to the bridegroom, but right here Yasuhiro Nightow subverts the biblical metaphor to devastating effect. The wedding doesn't come to fruition, because Vash can't bring himself to step into the role of the heavenly bridegroom. In this moment, he just feels all too painfully human in his grief. Wolfwood ascends - celebrated across the sky by those he saved with his selfless love, but Vash descends - acting as an ordinary person mourning the loss of a loved one.
John 13:36 (NRSV) - Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow me now...."
#trigun#trigun maximum#trigun spoilers#trigun maximum spoilers#suicide mention#cw suicide mention#religion mention#christianity mention#trigunbookclub#the bookclub is a funeral procession this week#hugs going out to all of you#Guns&God meta
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Time for Vol. 5: Meryl's very bad no good horrible day
Even though she saved the day by shooting Legato, breaking the craziest stand-off while also scared shitless. I love my wife. She can hold so much complexity in her. Now let's get into it:
First, a moment from Vash:
Our boy is in utter agony here, and the thought of Meryl is what keeps him going. Obviously she's in danger and needs rescuing, but come on. He's enduring this pain for her. He can't quit, for her. Yeah, this is par for the course for our anime jesus figure, but come on. Let me have this.
Quick moment of Meryl seeing Vash's feathers for the first time and she's terrified. It's interesting how Wolfwood and Meryl are both so deeply terrified of Vash, but Wolfwood saw a lot more up front at Jeunora Rock and from a distance. Meryl, on the other hand, is trapped. I also think Wolfwood processes it completely differently because he also sees himself as a monster, so to him it's recognition of the self through the other (deragatory). For Meryl, it's just all traumatic. She's just a 23 year old woman and she didn't ask for this.
I think these panels above explain my question from earlier - Meryl is definitely seeing Vash's flashbacks to July here. She sees the black hole gate, the destruction, and the angel arm; I'm not sure if she knows about the part with Knives, but based on some really helpful people on my earlier post today, I think she reveals that she saw that too (oof). I'm not sure what she's seeing in the bottom panel of page 95, though. If someone could explain, I would be super appreciative.
Like I said, she's just a normal person. What was it that someone said to Vash earlier, that he's endured more pain than any person possibly could live with? And now Meryl feels some of that - a lot of it, perhaps, considering that July was so traumatic to Vash that he lost his memory of it. Someone else pointed it out wonderfully that while Fifth Moon was Knives controlling Vash, July was 100% Vash aiming to kill Knives and everyone else was an unlucky casualty of Vash's fear and anger. Meryl sees what Vash is capable of - and that he has killed scores of people - not just second-hand through circumstance, but in actuality.
ANGEL MODE GO CRAZY GO STUPID! GORE GORE GORE!
I mean, Vash doesn't have great control of his power anyway, between hardly ever using it and feeling intense emotion that affects it. Thank god he doesn't use the angel arm here, but holy shit? Meryl just saw what that thing is capable of, and Wolfwood saw it in real time, and he's yelling at Meryl to escape but she's trapped underneath him. After she was also trapped in an elevator, and the elevator fell, and holy shit if i were her I would need extensive therapy to go into an elevator ever again, never mind all of Vash. And then as Vash's angel arm powers down it morphs again into this ungodly homunculus of body parts like it's fucking Envy from Fullmetal Alchemist (*Trigun predates FMA, to be clear) and he is apologizing profusely, knowing how terrifying it is and he has no control over what's happening with his body.
Huh. Between that and how Knives keeps assaulting him, that's a pretty painful running theme.
Thankfully, as Elendira takes the spotlight (my other wife) (she can do no wrong, I love her dearly), I think it gives Vash some time to cool down long enough to go back to "normal". And then he holds a dying Hoppered's hand, showing compassion to a man who tried to kill him but then re-experienced the horrors of July with him, showing that Vash still cares that despite how terrifying and destructive he can be when he loses it. And Meryl watches on.
#trigunbookclub#i am fucking COOKING with vashmeryl thoughts#vashmeryl#many more of these posts incoming i just. this one i had to get out first#i will gladly pay for both vash and meryl's therapy thank you#ive been waiting for this scene#trimax
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Wolfwood as a Judas figure
(and what does the Couch have to do with it)
you know how there are some interpetations of Wolfwood as the Judas to Vash's Jesus
and as the betrayal people use the whole "brought Vash to Knives"
that never really did it for me
sure, that incident is a betrayal all right - he brought Vash to the slaughter - but thematically, or in its consequences it just doesn't fit The Judas Betrayal
Wolfwood regreted it almost instantly and turned around undo what he's done and to rescue Vash - I went into it a while ago but this to me a Peter type betrayal the "before the rooster cries three times you will deny me" type
Now here is the take I come in with
in some interpretations of Judas his betrayal was not an act of selfishness but an act of love - Judas knew he had to betray Jesus for his ressurection to come
he betrayed Jesus, the person, to propagate Jesus, the idea, and in the proces sacrificed himself along with his eternal life
now hear me out on this
Wolfwood betrayed Vash, the person, by putting down his life, for Vash's ideals of sparing a life of someone else
due to this betrayal a part of Vash died
but a part of him has also undergone a change to allow him to reach his goals
this chapter really marks a turning point in Vash's character - something that wouldn't happen be it not for Wolfwood's sacrifice
in the end of the day
Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss
#of course its a perverse reading of christianity this is Yasuhiro Nightow's work#also#a lot of people talked about this before - that the reason Vash killed Legato was because of Wolfwood#because livio was the only remainder of wolfwood and the culmination of his last efforts#and the same way vash's ideals imprinted on wolfwood some of ww's ideals imprinted on vash#he realised that you cant save everyone and sometimes you have to give up on one person to save another#and i think this is the reason he was ultimately able to face off knives#because if it came to it (against all of vash's wishes but if it truly came to it) he would kill knives#<anyways those are the more rambly thoughts i didnt know how to put into the post#also something something the couch as the last supper#trigun meta#trigun#trigun maximum#trigun maximum meta#trimax#nicholas d wolfwood#vash the stampede#laying on the floor thinking#i think this might be my magnum opus#vashposting
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Episode Nine: Millions Knives
Knives is firmly among my favourite characters. Adore him, fascinated by him, need to hit him over the head with a baseball bat.
The thing about Knives is that he lies constantly. I think he's so used to lying that he's come to believe himself truthful and sincere. To be fair to him, his emotions are very sincerely felt - I think they rattle his teeth, actually - but I don't think he understands them, even in hindsight. I don't think he understands the emotions or responses of others, either. They make no intuitive sense to him. So he rationalises reactions he doesn't expect as weakness, error or corruption to avoid admitting to himself where the problem might lie, and considers them only on those terms. Which must be terribly, terribly isolating, and it means he also lies to himself.
I suppose it's not a secret that I see a lot of myself in Vash - the guilt, the distance, the way he exaggerates his reactions around others - but there's a little bit of Knives there too. Enough that I feel sympathy. But I also recognise parts of him that aren't in me at all; they were a sickness I didn't realise I had, or the voices of people I wish had known better.
So my feelings about him are complicated, to put it mildly. I remember after watching the finale I had simultaneous urges to wrap him in a blanket and beat him to death with a tire iron, and that hasn't really changed. It's a difficult state of mind.
He's a great character.
Such a sweet, sad scene from a character we saw being so vicious. The notes begin slow, faltering - loneliness, hesitation. Perhaps even regret? And then Vash enters in his memory and adds his voice, and while it's still a little awkward, the notes themselves seem to smile along with him. Knives has learned over time to play the song himself, but it's still incomplete without Vash. The room is ridiculously huge, which makes Knives in the centre even tinier and lonelier than he'd otherwise be; the distance of the long-shot also conceals that he sits just a little further to the right than he needs to, so the realisation is slow. There's a lot of empty space. It looks like the room is unfurnished besides the piano and bench, with some random debris scattered around. How long has he been staying here? How long has he sat on that bench, trying to fill all that emptiness? Around him, beneath him, humans do human things and he is indifferent. He permits it only because soon none of it will matter.
I have to wonder what it is that Conrad got for Knives that made Knives look so pleased. Can't help but consider it ominous.
Also, Luida wasn't the only member of the SEEDs crew to pass on a haircut.
They have very similar clothes, too. That must have been an interesting shopping trip.
I spent literal hours combing through all my references trying to figure out if that was SEEDs Ship Five the city was built in, and I don't think so - Ship Five had human passengers and July was built in a Plant carrier. (So much for "I made sure the Plant ships would survive.") So at least we're spared the twist of the knife (sigh) it would have been to know somewhere in among all these withered Plants might be the twins' birth mother or the one who greeted them with Rem - but Jesus V. Saverem Christ, that doesn't make it better.
Knives, y'know - I do get why you killed those men. I really do. Humans are not innocent of this horror. Humans are not angels. Humans are survivors. We're also unfortunately greedy, short-sighted and brutally indifferent to those we don't perceive as part of the ingroup, especially when desperate. Even if you're willing to overlook this callous, casual abuse of living beings - and I wouldn't be - this is a recklessly unsustainable approach. Almost like a decision one might make in panic out of misfiring instinctive urge to seek safety? Not that I'm implying anything about your decisions.
And so when he sees Vash Knives immediately blames all of humanity when Knives bears at least a portion of the blame himself. There would always be casualties in such wide-scale destruction, even among those he intended to spare. Nor did he seem to do anything to protect the Plants aboard the crashed ship (likely because it would require relying on more humans), though it's obvious they would be vulnerable. But there's no way he can take responsibility for the deaths of his own kind on top of everything else he's done... though truly we're also our own worst advocates.
I'm sure they were happy to be useful.
Maybe Knives should have thanked the technician who said that to him before his death, because what he said made Knives so very angry. Anger, for Knives, is strength, and strength is certainty. A frightened little boy is sorry that he killed his mother and drove his brother away. A frightened little boy couldn't do this. Vash is frightened, of course. Clinging to Rem's skirts, a coward still, years later. Totally lacking conviction. But Knives thought of this. He knows how to work with that too.
Interesting that when Vash felt unworthy of the people of Home, he took off the coat they gave him to give it back. Knives, though, he snatches the gift he gave Vash straight out of his hands. If he's learned to play a duet alone he doesn't need Vash to do this either. He doesn't need Vash. It'd just be nice! You know. Not to have to rely on himself all the time!
His stupid little face and its utter bafflement. Where is this coming from? Vash isn't like this! I don’t remember it being like this! What could possibly have changed?
Knives intended to keep his calm throughout this confrontation. You can watch him visibly gather himself when he notices Vash enter; take a deep breath, push his hood back - it's why he went from kneeling to standing. It's like he can't be vulnerable, or even ask for comfort, but I swear if he'd just asked Vash for a hug instead of stabbing people the series would have ended there. Instead he tips further and further over the edge, refusing to reach out for help on terms other than the ones in his head, which he refuses to explain. And the moment a variable he can't control enters the situation, his first and only reaction is to violently remove it.
(Poor Luida must have no idea what the hell is going on. Although I bet this reunion explained a lot with hindsight.)
Why do you point that gun at me? Even though I saved you?
That's really the question Knives needs to consider the answer to himself, and he's not going to. Instead he imposes a time limit (and I'm starting to think when it ran out, that was when the Eye of Michael got into gear, so it's been around for approx. forty-five years) and runs off to cry in his piano room as though Vash is the one who needs a time-out.
Well.
He does, at that.
There's so much hope in what follows. Compared to Knives's vast hollow space, Vash's little room is so full of warmth and acceptance. He has people who love him and even a solution to the ongoing crisis, albeit an imperfect one - but he has something, he's not just flailing around until the day he catches one too many bullets. He has a goal in healing the Plants and helping people, and he has people who support him in it. And sure, he faces scepticism. Not to mention the parameters he's put on himself (I'll never kill, ever again... I'll figure out a way to save everyone. The humans, Plants... and Nai) which are Dark Souls times Atlus superboss impossible. But even Brad, who once called him a monster, thinks he's in with a chance.
I truly wish I found that more comforting than I did.
#trigun stampede#tristampparty#considering the character is named knives#it's funny this is the first time i've added#tw blood#tw dismemberment#tw strangulation#i have to say teen!shaped knives is my fav knives bc he's so cute#kitten thinks of nothing but murder all day#vash because your brother is Like That luida's decided you get free ice cream forever#trigun meta#meta: tristampparty episodes
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Day 8 of the tristamp analysis marathon and jesus christ i am!!! really excited to do these now because people have been adding onto/being nice abt my stuff and that's super cool. Thank you again to @tristampparty for running this! I didn't manage to join in on the book club last year so it's nice to have a fun little event all the same
[But as for next book club,,,, well. I'm extremely transgender about trimax and would love to join in]
As always, spoilers for trigun stampede and trigun maximum! Also some CWs for Vash-typical passive suicidal tendencies and discussion of his psyche
So! Episode 8! I have.... mixed feelings, on how Tristamp portrays Knives. On one hand, I definitely think that we're being lead to believe that Vash has always been a peace-loving kid and that Knives has always had those tendencies, which would set up for season 2 to break that down. I hope.
The one thing I couldn't figure out, ofc, is the Knives not needing to eat thing - My friend millions-dykes theorized a black hole/white star dynamic a little while ago [as seen in the screenshot. I'm Organ, they are Nagito Malmonella]
aaaaaaaaanyway, we still get these little instances of knives just being a kid, and it's the funniest thing in the world to me. Vash is also apparently in tune with him enough to pick up on that and it's such twin behaviour.
There's also just a lot of cases of Knives smiling or being giggly around Rem, which,,,, he's such a mama's boy like we know this but it's so nice to have it reinforced. This theory of Knives having always been cold/standoffish just doesn't track - the only time he usually seems uncomfortable is when Rem touches him or when he talks about Plant stuff - particularly when he's talking about being different to Vash. Knives, to me at least, is a tad autism-coded :]
OKAY TO THE SCENE[TM]
So obviously this has changed from when we first saw Vash tell the story. Vash's sequence of events runs as follows:
Vash walks up to the little hill that Knives is laughing maniacally on top of -> Knives says "I finally did it! It worked! -> Vash confronts him with "How could you do that?" -> Knives reassures him with "Don't worry, I left the Plant ship" -> Knives says "I even got Rem killed!" -> Knives points out that Vash is his accomplice, but does not elaborate why. "Don't get mad. You're already my accomplice, isn't that right Vash?"
Now the sequence of events in this version is provably more accurate (the same audio is used in the black box recording discovered later), and goes as follows:
Vash wakes up from the escape pod and goes "Nai, where are you?" -> He spends some time following Knives' footsteps where he sees the crashed pods and fire and Knives laughing on the hill -> Knives says "I finally did it! It worked!" -> Vash says "I can't believe you killed Rem!" -> Knives says "Don't get mad. You're already my accomplice, it was you who told me the passcode - Am I right, Vash?"
So there are several inconsistencies in these two versions of events, most notably for me is that Vash is the one to bring up Rem. If the 1st telling was correct, it would imply that Knives wanted to kill Rem, but that part is conspicuously absent, because Vash is the one that brings her up.
Vash's retelling also omits the fact that he was the one to give Knives the passcode, shifting more blame onto Knives. It's very very interesting to me. Finally, Knives mostly has his back to Vash when he dissolves into laughter again. Which is a technique often used to hide if you've been crying or are having a hard time keeping some emotional responses down.
And I'm not even done with this flashback! The scene where Vash just lies down and wants to give up is,,, Well, in Trimax, ever since Tesla, Vash has struggled with suicidal ideation - he's the one that asks for Rem to just kill him, and that's heartbreaking, but we also see a bit of that leaking through here again, where he just wants to lie down and give up. It also gives me hope we're gonna see that Tesla aftermath scene in the next season, because that'll be breaking Vash down into his more complicated, messy parts.
Okay so I do think that the subtitles Aniwave uses are... a little bit Wack, I'm pretty sure that they're unofficial and probably a bit wonky, and I'm only slightly conversational in Japanese so I have 0 idea about this, but hey I think someone should inform Wolfwood, for no particular reas- [I am dragged away by security]
[I did check the dub, which referred to Plants giving birth which I think is much more likely to be accurate. But it'd still be funny for Wolfwood to have to sit through Plant sex ed so neither of them get pregnant]
Rem really was very, very young,,,,,
There are four photos here, but only one is given to Vash. I wonder why,,,, Possibly to gauge his recognition of Knives being in the photo, or keeping the other three to learn what they can about Knives.
The night/day progression cycle here doesn't really match up with Vash's little tally, so I don't think it's counting days. Given that he apparently went to say hello to everyone in cold sleep while on the ship, I think it's a little more likely that the tally marks are for them....
Do we ever actually get to hear Rem say the blank ticket thing in a flashback? I don't recall it, but it is said to Vash after the whole Stabbing Incident in Trimax, so that's possibly why they've kept it from us.
Theeee markings under this Plant's eyes match Elendira's, which. Obviously Elendira in tristamp is part plant there's just so many little details that lend themselves to it,,,
The HAIR COLOUR CHANGE AAAA
I like the little wall of Vash baby pics in the background here, but he still didn't get any of his 3 other ship pics back :(
Finally, Vash's line of "an Independent will make up for what an Independent has done" is interesting because his guilt complex really does spiral, huh. The reason Knives telling him "Oh, you just feel guilty for the Big Fall, huh?" in a later ep fucks him up so much is because like. That is kinda true to an extent. Vash is his own kind of self-deluding, but that only really starts spiraling at about this point in time.
Alright, setting up for a Day of analysis tomorrow, because I have many thoughts and feelings surrounding Knives (I love him very dearly and I hate him a lot (affectionate)) and we Will spend some time talking about Trimax Flavour Knives because my understanding of him is fundamental to my understanding of Tristamp Flavour Knives.
Thank y'all for the fun comments and theory addons!!! I'm having a lot of fun and we're really getting into how [normal] I am about Trigun!
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There's a lot going on throughout the whole Wolfwood-Chapel-Livio arc in Volumes 9-10 of Trigun Maximum, not the least of which is some pretty clear Biblical references and imagery. But there are some less obvious ones, too, so I'm gonna talk about one of them here and try to pull it a little closer to the surface.
This bit caught my attention in Volume 9, when Chapel has Wolfwood pinned to the ground and is reviling Vash to him, trying to tear away the hope that has only grown stronger in Wolfwood since he met Vash.
Wolfwood's not speaking out loud here, but still, his word choice seems strange. He's called Vash ignorant and an idiot, but calling him a child seems oddly out of place (especially in light of how young Wolfwood is himself).
Despite his seemingly insulting words, Wolfwood doesn't seem to intend insult here. He cares a great deal about Vash, and while he knows there's a logic to what Chapel is saying, it's Vash's "idiocy" and naiveté that Wolfwood has ultimately chosen to follow.
Then I got to thinking of another place where being called "like a child" isn't intended to be an insult.
At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, ‘Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?’ He called a child, whom he put among them, and said, ‘Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
- Matthew 18:1-5, NSRVA Translation
It's inevitable that children would be a bit of a focus in an arc that takes place at a functioning orphanage. But the kids at Wolfwood's home orphanage aren't treated as ignorant or annoying or worthless. They're kids, yes, but they're full of infinite hope, love, and forgiveness.
At the beginning of the arc, they jump in front of Wolfwood's bike despite not recognizing him and having no way to know ahead of time that he's an ally. They're determined to help Miss Melanie and the hostages and desperate to be taken seriously. They understand the situation is bad and most likely beyond them, but they won't... can't... cower in fear and do nothing.
They are scared, but they are brave. In addition to confronting the weird stranger on a bike who is Wolfwood, one of them goes so far as to try and take on the mercenaries surrounding the orphanage himself.
It's a dumb move that nearly gets him killed, but the alternative at that time seemed to be to sit around and do nothing, so the kid decides instead to do his best.
Later, when Wolfwood is being torn apart by Chapel in front of the orphanage, Miss Melanie tries to protect the kids and save as many of them as she can, telling them all to scatter and do their best to escape. But the kids call her out on the stupidity of this suggestion.
Not only is it unlikely to work, but it practically guarantees her death, at the very least, and they can't allow that. She may be willing to sacrifice herself for them, but she's overlooked that they are just as willing to sacrifice for her.
Near the end of the story arc, Miss Melanie decides to trust them with the truth that most of them have already figured out. In defiance of Wolfwood's wishes, she tells them about his true nature, and then she presents them with a decision. They can turn their back on him if they want. After all, he looks nothing like the big brother they remember, and on top of that he's become a killer whose hands are drenched in blood. But just in case they feel differently, she's brought the bag of confetti they've been saving to use to celebrate his return... a return they had no way of knowing would ever happen.
They choose the confetti.
It didn't matter what he'd done in the past, or even what he'd done while they'd been trapped hiding in the orphanage. Their big brother Nico had home when they'd most needed him, and they were going to celebrate.
To be counted among children like these is not an insult. They are the same as Wolfwood was before Chapel took him in. They are hopeful and they care deeply about one another. They have all overcome some darkness or another, and yet at the orphanage they have not only found a family and some sense of belonging, but they have learned to turn around and extend that same love to others.
Wolfwood still has some part of that deep inside of him... and it's Vash who helps him find it again.
Vash isn't so different from these children. He hopes for better things even when he has no way of knowing. He tries to see the best in people, to give them as many chances as possible, to understand them and forgive them.
He does his best to help even when it puts him in danger because something has to be done. Often it seems all his kindness has gotten him is reviled and run out of towns and hunted for both bounty and revenge. But he keeps at it.
It's true he's lost sight of his goals here and there along the way, but at least in the part of his life that we're allowed to see, he's lucky enough to have Wolfwood to bring him back around.
In this way, they've both epitomized the verses above, both reflecting the hope and kindness that is displayed by children even when it comes at the sacrificing of their own bodies, their vengeance, and their egos. Vash has demonstrated this particular aspect of Christlike-ness for Wolfwood, and Wolfwood, in turn, grows to reflect those same traits himself.
But the Biblical parallel doesn't end there. Let me just pull up the verse immediately after the passage quoted above...
If any of you put a stumbling-block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea.
- Matthew 18:7, NRSVA translation
Do we have anyone who fits this in the story? Maybe someone who preys on kids, specifically seeking out the most hopeful and protective of them so they can break them down and bend them to his will, drain them of the care they had for others, and turn the best of their traits to be nothing more than tools to be wielded for his own ends?
Anyone?
In conclusion, even God hates Chapel. Tie a giant fucking rock around this man's neck and throw him into the sea and, Biblically speaking, even that's far too good for him.
Nightow knew what he was doing.
#cw christianity#cw religious abuse#trigunbookclub#trigun maximum#volume 9#volume 10#manga analysis#pancake thoughts
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Ok now onto trigun and religion before I forget. Someone may have said all of this before lmao
So we all know vash is Jesus and wolfwood is judas, that one is clear for all of us. But I think there's even more funny parallels.
The 12 assassins (ww included) are the 12 apostles yeah but if jesus is vash why are they trying to kill him? So from knives's perspective HE IS jesus and the gun ho guns are the ones helping him, and one of them betrays him.
It's interesting to me than the guy who is literally jesus feels like the worst person ever but the guy who is evil as hell thinks of himself as jeesus who needs 12 little people to spread his message of hate.
Speaking of evil let's talk about the devil, who was first an angel who was casted away. We could say knives vanished himself when he got knowledge of what humans did to tesla...but what would vash be? Would he also be a fallen angel because he found out the truth? I wonder if there's a story of about 2 angels falling together.
Speaking of falling together, we still got Adam and eve. No they're not a couple get out of my house although vash would be eve cuz feminine trauma yes thanks nightow when both vash and knives figured what happened to tesla they didn't literally fall (that's later) but it's true that their paradise breaks. They weren't cast away by God but rem did try to keep them away from the truth like God did.
Speaking of God, who's God in trigun? The plants are clearly meant to be angels and rem is clearly meant to be Mary (had kids without doing the devils tango and was a selfless and nice woman you know the deal). Knives thinks of himself as God and although he says vash is his only equal cuz he's a plant he still sees his brother as someone beneath him. Hell in stampede he straight up calls himself God and calls vash jeesus, implying he is his father, someone above him.
Speaking of implications let's go back to ww being judas again. He is judas cuz he betrayed his mission and values for someone who is a literal opposite of him but again it depends on who's jeesus on your perspective. If knives is jeesus then yeah, wolfwood betrayed him for the Gay Thoughts TM (I'm joking but I'm not actually) and mf paid for it BUT if vash is jeesus then wolfwood didn't betrayed jeesus specifically but himself, and again he paid the price for following someone who was so different of what he knew.
(Ik wolfwood could also be considered as saint nick aka the reason why Santa exists and it would work cuz they both have as their mission to help children and make them happy but you will only find sad gay angst here sorry. Plus idk if saint nick and jeesus have history together)
I may do a part 2 if I think about any other things
#trigun stampede#trigun#trimax#trigun 98#trigun maximum#what the hell happened here#also july was totally the city of babel#they thought they could reach god aka make a big ass city in that arid planet aka challenge god and his will#and they died#i wonder who would meryl and milly be
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I have a hot new take that Vashwood shippers might get mad at me for...
I was thinking about this scene in the manga where [REDACTED] dies
And how people were speculating that it’s symbolic of marriage. Wolfwood’s bottle says BRIDE, people are throwing confetti and the church bells ring.
But I was thinking... if we’re talking symbolism... Vash is symbolic of Jesus right? The Bride in the Bible symbolism, represents God’s church. So if Wolfwood’s symbolism here is the bride of the Christ figure, it might be that we’re being symbolically shown Wolfwood is officially a real believer, a real follower of Christ, forgiven and redeemed, he’s got a happy send off because he’s saved.
#not art#trigun maximum#trigun#trigun stampede#wolfwood#vash the stampede#there's a fan animation in the link#of that scene from trimax#death
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trimax vol 13 random thoughts (ch 5-9)
part 1 here!
chapter 5:
okay, it took me way longer than it should have to figure out what happened in this scene, lol. razlo gets behind elendira and blocks her nail gun with the nail that's already in his body which jams her gun and pushes the nail further into his torso which takes them both by surprise.
"some dumbasses"?? do you mean wolfwood and vash?? LOL
come on, come on, come on!!! he's so cute, lol. he's like a dog who wants to play.
i love watching razlo fight!!! it's so fun seeing him fight a different way due to not having his punishers/third arm anymore. he's having so much fun too, it's infectious~
UNTIL ELENDIRA USES A PSYCHIC ATTACK ON HIM. JESUS CHRIST. THAT ONE ALMOST HAD ME.
chapter 6:
ma'am could you please stop serving cunt for a second i'm trying to read manga and you are distracting me
AAAAAGH AND THEN SHE BLASTS HIS LEG OFF. THAT ONE WASN'T FAKE THAT ONE WAS REAL. he'll be okay but :(
CHEKHOV'S VIAL?!
uuuueeee... wolfwood... just seeing the little panel of him... i miss him so much... and the reminder of wolfwood brings livio back out. ueee... waaahhhh...
i'm sitting here trying to articulate my feelings about livio and razlo and i can't, really... :') livio feeling so bad and apologizing that he has to rely on razlo so much, razlo doing his best to encourage livio... they really care about each other a lot. it's very sweet. i care them. :(((
oh this is so very much not how DID works but it's both cool and important to their character arcs so it's FINE!!!! it's fine
huuuhhhmmmmm something something symbolism in livio's guns being reversible and livio and razlo working together, two as one... is this anything? am i connecting any dots here?
they were able to bring elendira to her knees with their teamwork!!!!
chapter 7:
uwaaahhh! young livio flashback!! this is where his twinky stampede self came from i guess. i hope season 2 gives us a beefier version-
...wait. wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait wait. hold on. speaking of stampede. give me a second.
*returns 30 minutes later* HUH. INTERESTING. so stampede shows us livio working hard in EoM to catch up with wolfwood, but in the manga, it's all but outright stated that he's trying to catch up with razlo.
sorry i'm just fascinated by the tristamp/manga differences and seeing younger livio doing pushups reminded me (stamp!livio does pushups the same way!!)
we're not supposed to know that razlo exists yet in tristamp; i wonder if or how season 2 is going to reframe any of this. it's not like i dislike livio and wolfwood's relationship in stampede!! i think it's really sweet, introducing livio into ww's story earlier is a good move, and livio joining EoM to catch up with ww makes everything in the relevant episodes more emotional. but the relationship between livio and razlo is just as important!!
razlo encouraging livio is SO cute, uwaaaahhh...
WAAAHHHHH!!!! I LOVE THESE TWO SO MUCH!!!!!
babygirl, please, i am begging. why are you so sad. tell me who hurt you. i am on my hands and knees.
to him... while drinking wolfwood's last vial... i am going to fucking throw up i feel so normal about this
chapter 8:
elendira, killed by her own nail... oh girl... my beloved... i did not expect her to live but i'm still sad she's gone. what a fantastic fight though. might be my favorite fight in this manga.
also livio's gonna have an interesting time trying to get up and get her off of him once his limbs regenerate... uh... if they can regenerate? i'm assuming they can...
i am gonna fucking CRYYYY... calling him by name... wwwaaaaahhhhh...
he would be so proud of you, livio!!!! WAAAAHHH!!!
okay, time to cut back to my other faves having their own battle.
it's so funny that legato thinks this. dude, she hates your guts. if she knew she was gonna see you in the afterlife soon she WOULD worry.
huh? that's her name? like the painting?
also i've been wondering this whole time why she looks like that. like why is she designed to look like a woman. did legato design her himself?? is this his aesthetic sense??
haha ouch! thanks for spelling out the metaphor so plainly!
ahhhh, july flashback... this was uhhh... *checks* ten years ago. supposedly. i'm not sure how much i trust the timeline anymore.
actually i do wonder how measuring time works on this planet. like, everything seems to be measured the same way it is on earth, so does noman's land also have 365 days in a year and 24 hour days?
he's so cute, i am holding him gently in my hands.
knives is so mean... to be just a tiny little bit fair to him, i too would be low on patience if my brother just blasted me with a death beam and someone suddenly started handling my guts that were hanging out. but he's so mean!! i feel bad for legato!!
i AM surprised that knives is still conscious... and that he's still mostly intact. like his guts are hanging out but it looks like his legs and arms (or at least one arm) are still attached, and he's still got. y'know. most of his skin. certainly more intact than his stampede self, lmao.
vash, honey, what on earth makes you think he plans on living through this fight any more than you are. :')
i just like this spread.
chapter 9:
OH BOY, HE'S FERAL!!! truly, he is going out in a blaze of glory just like he wanted. i wouldn't expect anything else from him at this point.
ahhh... stampede!legato talks a lot about discarding emotion in favor of devotion. but emotion and devotion are intrinsically linked. legato is a pretty emotional person, he cries a lot and yells a lot... as long as he can express his devotion to knives, he feels like he's fulfilling his purpose, so he's happy... i'm glad he's having fun at least... :')
WAAAAHHH VASH IS REMEMBERING WOLFWOOD NOW... his face is not quite visible but... vash is remembering wolfwood's words because he's thinking he really is going to have to kill legato to end this fight... killing legato just like in the 98 anime...
i get caught up in the action, but every time they bring wolfwood up i realize how much i miss him...
this panel fucks.
i love watching legato go fucking crazy fighting. i wanna see this fight animated so bad :''')
when i read the top panel, i was like, "because of knives, right?" then i read the bottom panel... ahhh... not just knives... every plant... it's a good thing tristamp established this relatively early because we don't really see vash doing this in the story lol
i'm remembering "do you think we can become friends with them?" "yeah... it might take a lot of effort though..." :'''')
chronica, girl, i know you're very angry with knives, but as far as revenge goes, you need to get in line. you got here like five minutes ago, there are other people with much longer-lasting beef than you who deserve a shot at him before you.
the smallest meryl u can imagine...
WAAAAH this is so sweet, they love him so much :(
i said this already but i LOVE seeing legato go all-out, it's cool!! it gets me pumped up!!! this is just... such a good fight!!!
wait, is the earth ship falling because chronica used up so much energy firing the cannon multiple times?? GIRL...
THIS PAGE FUCKS!!!
THIS SPREAD ALSO FUCKS!! the way that the debris fades out above them, they're only focused on each other...!!!
final thoughts... i'm surprised legato survived this volume?! i really thought he would die in this one... he lasted longer than i thought he would, not that i'm complaining... UUAAAAAGHHH i am gnawing on my arm rn, i can't believe there's only one volume left?! i'll be finished *checks day* TOMORROW?!?!? if i don't procrastinate on reading... which i might do because i don't want it to be over... waaaah...
how will knives be defeated? can humanity survive? will livio's limbs regenerate? and most importantly, HOW WILL VASH GET HIS WILL TO LIVE BACK?!?!
#trigunbookclub#every time i reference stampede i worry i'm missing something#because i still haven't finished my most recent rewatch (got too emotional about episode 9)#but i've gone back and watched livio's episode and a half multiple times LOL#trigun talk#june speaks
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Trigun Book Club Update Trimax volume 2
Oh sweet Jesus just look at what I have to deal with here
These are THE SCANS. KMSSSSSS
Also, despite being intimately familiar with reading right to left, the fact that the next arrow is still the right one instead of the left one completely breaks my brain. Let’s see how this goes. Although I will say that this is a slight upgrade in that the last volume scanned two page spreads separately so I kinda had to imagine how they were supposed to look put together. I should’ve just bought the books
Ch 1. That’s also how I feel whenever I hear the saxophone my dad was a jazz saxophonist, I have a degree in classical oboe performance. How did this happen? idk
Jesus being crushed to death by the weight of other humans is a horrific way to die
Ch 2. Eat like a dog, Kaiba
Sorry I’m incapable of thinking about media outside of the contexts of other things I’ve read or seen, it’s in my nature. Remember that part in Hiraeth The End of the Journey where even though Hibino had a side cart for his motorcycle, he refused to let anyone ride in it because he was saving it for his soulmate? Yeah.
Totally obsessed with Raidei’s outfit
They say don’t bring a knife to a gun fight but they said nothing about a sword!
Ooooohhhhhhh it’s the last page of chapter two and I finally figured out that it’s supposed to be Raidei the Blade. I was like braid? Why braid what’s that supposed to mean?
Ch 3. Loving the title page art for this chapter
I will not make dirty jokes about Vash’s arm gun, I will not make dirty jokes about Vash’s arm gun, I w
Ngl, this fight reminded me of (oh god im doing it again) the coliseum chapter of Kino’s Journey. I’m leaving it at that but it seems like I’ve got a penchant for human-loving gunslinging protagonists
Ch 4. Chapter called Wolfwood? LETS GOOOOOO
Vash: I don’t kill people
Wolfwood: I do, get out of my way
The more interactions between Vash and Wolfwood I read, the more I understand why people ship them. Who doesn’t want someone to put your gun to their head and tell you to shoot them
Meryl and Millie! 🥹 It’s been so long!
They say lost technology a lot but this technology certainly doesn’t seem lost
Ch 5. Nico nii chan :3c (side note: totally forgot his first name was Nicholas for a second and thought it was a joke on him always smiling)
don’t click
I really do love how large of a role family plays in the story and the characters’ motivations and personalities. I still feel like we’re in the “early” part of the series, but to be already picking up on so many of these themes and motifs is really cool, and I’m definitely keen to see how they all come to a head in the series.
Love when there’s a kanji near the page fold and the scan makes it look like ▉
I’m still not sure what Y is... it seems like a group of bad guys? Maybe? Is it Kaiba’s group?
Ch 6. Gung Ho Guns just loves toying with Vash’s emotions huh
Ch 7. Sorry I’m laughing at Wolfwood’s sultry little pose in the chapter title art here
I’m on the verge of wringing the puppetmaster’s neck holy shit just speak Japanese for once please. All of you reading a translation- know you’re lucky
Final thoughts: This was definitely a lot more interesting than the last volume, and the pace seems to be picking up. I’m still kinda waiting for it to get out of “villain of the week” type plot, but at least we’re getting more depth out of it. Also, it seems like we’ve completely abandoned those twelve coin assassins at this point? There are some things I’m still unsure about, like Y, but I also know that I struggle to pick up on more indirect things in my second language, especially when it’s referencing something that we’re just supposed to figure out. So that’s my assumption on Y, but I still don’t have any ideas on why Wolfwood has such strong ties with it. Also, I feel like my thoughts were pretty short for this volume, but that’s also definitely because there was lots of action and fight scenes this time around, and my brain just kinda shuts off for those lolol
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Volume 13 - Elendira's number, let's gooooo!
So I was pondering the significance of Livio's big throwdown fight being against Elendira, and it hit me once I looked at it in terms of their abilities: Elendira's weapon is nails; Livio's power is regeneration. This is the Crucifixion battling against the Resurrection - a very Christian metaphor being used to illustrate the conflict of ideas between Knives and Vash. Elendira acts to help carry out Knives' condemnation of humanity; she brings death and visions of death in the wake of Knives' crusade to punish those he sees as sinners. Livio, in contrast, is aligned with Vash's mission to save humanity; he's an agent for Vash's message of redemption and life persevering.
To delve into Christian soteriology for a bit, the significance of the crucifixion in the New Testament is that it is the act of Jesus taking on the punishment for all of humanity's sins. "The wages of sin is death," as Romans 6:23 says, so Jesus dies, but then Jesus rises again to complete the path to humanity's reconciliation with God. The idea is that in becoming followers of Christ, Christians spiritually share in the experience of crucifixion, death, and resurrection with Jesus. To love Jesus is to be changed as though one were raised from the dead. The passage below from Paul's letter to the Romans is an example of that perspective.
Romans 6:4-6 (NRSV):
(4) Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (6) We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, so we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
It's very appropriate that Paul's words get brought up here, because I think Livio can be seen as something of a Paul figure. He's a powerful member of a religious order that opposes the followers of the Christ figure, he plays a big role in the death of a "disciple," and he undergoes an intense experience that changes him into one of the most devoted followers of the Christ figure. And the stuff Paul wrote about being crucified with Christ? Livio sure went through a crucifixion alright.
With all that said, when we bring Razlo into the equation, things get really interesting and a bit subversive when viewed through the lens of Paul's teachings in the Christian Bible. In stories that are more straightforwardly Christian in their messaging, a character like Razlo - a personality who acts as someone's darker half- would typically be treated as a force of evil to be overcome. This represents how the pre-salvation self is supposed to die so that a more Christ-like nature can take its place.
In Livio's case, however, Razlo is not extinguished after Livio chooses to live by Wolfwood's and Vash's example. Instead of being framed as the more sinful aspect of Livio that needed to be purified out of him, Razlo is portrayed as a powerful asset in preserving Livio's life, and that's something that really resonated with me - the way that Livio didn't need to erase his darker half but instead learned to work in harmony with it. In doing so, he found wholeness.
#trigunbookclub#trigun#trigun maximum#elendira the crimsonnail#livio the double fang#religion mention#christianity mention#trigun book club sure has been an exercise in dusting off my old bible knowledge#this is the most I've thought about christianity and the bible in a long time lol#Guns&God meta
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got an ask on curious cat and wanted to crosspost it here because it's trigun meta!
hihi, really really loved your thread on knives/vash and the masks they wear. it was an insightful read and i admire your grasp on vash and knives' characters! (your post-trimax kv fic is also one of my favs in this fandom, GREAT shit right there) i would be curious to hear your thoughts on vash and how he experiences/deals with his trauma in trimax (PTSD/C-PTSD, rem and tesla, guilt from the big fall, the separation between him and knives, aftermath from the July/fifth moon incidents, plant body horror and all that jazz) i know there's a lot sjdfksjh you don't have to touch on all of those points but only if ur interested ofc!
HELLO. I REALIZE YOU SENT THIS TWO WEEKS AGO. IIII UHHH FORGOT I EVEN HAD A CURIOUS CAT SKNFDKLMFKDSSD HI, SORRY!!
thanks! i'm glad you enjoyed the meta and the fic!! seriously i think i blacked out while writing "we've got to get back to that stinking garden," i was so ill about them. still am.
anyway. trauma, huh? i think i usually gloss over talking about vash's trauma only because it feels so clear to me. knives's is so easily misinterpreted for the purposes of lambasting him or woobifying him but vash wears all that pain on his sleeve. uh. literally. because of the. the arm thing. but the way he deals with it is so!! it's /so./
short answer: he runs away. all the time.
long answer: it's his coolest thematic motif because his name is "the stampede," right, a horde of animals sprinting for their fuckin lives because something behind them spooked them so bad they're going to trample everything in their path just to get away. and occasionally, when he feels he /really really has to,/ because of a sense of sheer responsibility, he runs toward the Bad Things. said bad thing is usually knives because vash believes that his brother is inherently his responsibility, and also all the guilt from the big fall. that's trauma, as you mentioned, that manifests over and over again as soul-wrenching guilt.
the reason vash fashions himself into gunsmoke's friendly neighborhood jesus figure is because he's tortured by that guilt, especially in stampede, because of that lil addition the writers made to the canon: that vash is partially responsible for letting his brother Commit Atrocities. and that's something that clearly drives him batshit insane. how can he laugh when the suffering of a whole planet sits partially on his shoulders? how can he eat when they're starving? how dare he /not/ be their meat shield over and over again when he's the reason they need one in the first place?
his trauma drives him to atone for a sin that can't really be atoned for and can't really be ascribed solely to him. he was, of course, 1 year old (mentally ~6?) when he helped knives perpetuate the fall. it's an impossible, Sisyphean endeavor, but because he's functionally immortal and never /really/ had a chance to grow up properly, he's going to fuckin try.
mf i'm running out of characters here this is evil!! anyway. i think his guilt about rem is why he develops such an, uh, oedipus complex about her that has even wolfwood thinking he's talking about a dead girlfriend. and i think with tesla he just. put her out of his mind. how the fuck do you even begin to cope with a sister dismembered and brutally killed, a sister kept in a jar, a sister you never knew you had or got the chance to love. i think vash just avoids it. it's too big, the ramifications too Much, when all he wants to do is move on and live his life.
(in contrast, nai is forever stuck in that room, in that horrifying moment. he can't escape it even as vash runs and runs and runs away.)
The same thing happens post-July. Post-fifth moon. Vash sees the horror he’s wrought (that knives has wrought) and goes. Fuck this shit i’m outta here. Fight or flight more like flight or flight even fuckin faster amirite. But knives always catches up to him in the end, is the thing—nai is the physical symbol of his trauma, the narrative vehicle for vash’s pain. He is everything that has traumatized vash made flesh. It’s part of what makes every fight between the two so gripping, imo. By overcoming knives, by putting his brother in the ground, that’s him trying to atone and appease the guilt. This is vash overcoming his trauma. Trying to, anyway.
Which is what also makes the ending of trimax so. So utterly vash. Because he says fuck this there’s another way, and it happens in a split second when he has to decide if he really and truly wants his brother dead. His trauma!! Does he want to overcome it like this!! With violence and blood and the corpse of nai rotting in the ground!!
No. the answer’s no.
He saves knives. He declares that even though nai has done all of these things to him, he still doesn’t have it in him to kill his brother. And that’s a way of coping with trauma, too, isn’t it? The declaration that you won’t let it rule you. Won’t let it dictate what you do anymore, how you live your life. It makes me so, so fuckin emotional ;-;
Anyway, thanks for the ask! Didn’t touch on the plant body horror as much because i haven’t. Uh. read enough of trimax to properly talk about all that. My reading order is a little unhinged. Hope it satisfied regardless <3
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ok so im not very far into trigun (which. you convinced me to read/watch) but ive seen you talk about vash as a christ/messiah figure which. means im kinda obsessed with how you described his impact on the world in no name on the bullet (christ healing the lame, christ feeding the thousand... christ delivering his people from evil.) did you have any specific biblical references you kept in mind while writing?
i also think its super interesting how the fic seems to focus more heavily on healing as opposed to how (what ive seen of) trigun is a lot more gunman focused - is part of that influenced by how knives is a pacifist in a "cold turkey" way, or a choice on your part? i think it makes an interesting dichotomy, christ the gunman and satan the physician
I've gone my entire life without recommending Trigun to anybody, because I always felt it was too weird and ultra-violent and love-it-or-hate-it to actually ask people to watch it. Look at me now. Getting at least 3+ people into it. Boo boo the fool. Also I'm sorry that this response is so long skull emoji.
I'm ex-Catholic so you have asked the right question lol. Vash is very inspired by the Old Testament God. I have a strong mental image of him obsessing over the Noah's Arc story in his cute children's Bible. Sodom and Gomorrah is brought up again much later, in an extremely important way. Garden of Eden and Paradise, as the show does. The Plagues where every firstborn son dies. These is all imagery that Vash specifically evokes on purpose. Vash...uses the Bible to understand his own experiences and feelings and desires (that's the most neutral way to phrase it), but like a lot of people he uses the Bible/God partly as justification for his actions. God destroys cities for being sinful, and Vash is the closest thing to God this planet has, so he's entitled lol. God Complex McGee up in here.
And Vash's cult has no Jesus, because there is no forgiveness for humanity, and no way for them to be saved. Which is how you know that Vash's Jesus-ey actions as described in the story are very deceitful on a lot of different levels. Kind of like regular Vash lmfao - as I said earlier, he's VERY much also a messiah deconstruction. Vash is a pacifist partly because he needs it - he needs to be believed that people can be saved, that the world can be good, that nobody has to die, because otherwise the world is nothing but an endless parade of misery and death and his own suffering. It's about saving his own soul, and the memory of Rem.
For me, on a writing level: Cain and Abel, obviously. 'My brother's keeper'-ass mofo lmfao. It's more themes for me, though - redemption, salvation, forgiveness, original sin, sin in general, guilt, fate. Knives is pretty obsessed with all of these topics. I make fun of him for it. None of it's healthy. But Knives embodies a few other Christian ideals that I don't make fun of him for, such as the importance of good works and good actions, and dedicating his life towards helping others without the desire for a reward. There's also some subtle 'shepherd and his sheep' stuff going on later.
Re: the gunfights: can you IMAGINE Knives carrying a gun. He is WAY too proud of his own #biologicalsuperiority and #ultimatelifeform and #impenetrabledefense (literally Shadow AND Gaara-ass mofo) to rely on cheap human trinkets like guns lol.
The plot has more action than my usual (yay! - that was what I was working for lol), but it's based off the skeleton of the Stampede plot, which is genuinely a lot more space opera than Western and as such its action looks different. Turns out that when you remove the Gung Ho Guns from a story, there are a LOT LESS gunfights, lmfao (I don't know what kind of errands Vash sends the GHG out on, I am afraid to find out). So partly there's less gunfights because a) Stamp plots don't require too many gunfights, and b) without a Gunman (TM) there's no reason for the group to use guns to solve their problems if at all possible.
It's also just that, basically, Vash's plots are partly man vs self and partly man vs other. When a character is level 99, the tension of the fight scene isn't if they'll win the fight - it's if they'll win the fight under their self-imposed conditions. In Vash's case, the Q in every gunfight is 'can Vash win the fight and save people without compromising his principles?'. For Knives, he is so ridiculously OP that it's impossible to write a fight scene with genuine tension, and he doesn't care nearly as deeply about casualties. So the most engaging plotlines for Knives are entirely man vs self, which tends to shake out into a lot of trolley problems lol. That's the answer to your Q from a writing perspective.
So it's mostly a choice for plot/writing reasons. But YUP the dichotomy is SUPER JUICY, and the fun part of the story is reading the Ultimate Killing Machine be forced to do literally anything else than Ultimate Kill - to do the only thing he wasn't meant to do. Because doing what he was meant to do reduces him to a biblical figure instead of a person - it makes him just a devil, who's never exercised the free will God gave him, and as such can't be called sentient. It's not what Rem would want. And it's a very juicy juxtaposition to somebody who interprets his own meaning in life as a Christ figure as a divine compulsion to brutally murder orphan.
#my writing#AH SORRY FOR LONG ANSWER AGAIN....#this story's actually a bit more drama and Things Happen-ey than my usual#which is a lot easier when you're following the beats of another person's story F#but its good practice for writing scenes that aren't just 'A and B talk in a location'#I need my stories to be more active AGH#im working on it but improvement is such slow going....#part of the reason why I avoided writing Trigun my whole life#is because a Trigun fic that was entirely talking seemed dishonest lol#sitting down I was like 'it's Trigun I need as much to happen as possible'#succeeded I think but I feel like I cheated.#also still wish it had more gunfights you're so right anon
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I just got to the part in trigun where Wolfwood tries to goad vash into shooting him- which was also a lot sooner than expecting. I'm starting to belive that maybe the manga is shorter than I initially belived
Then again I am biased- I have been obsessed with umineko, a work that is longer than even homestuck, for the past few months- so maybe my sense of what is an appropriate length for a story is warped.
Anyway with rem being obviously Jesus and knives (what a name) being obviously lucifer what with being an angel that hates humanity it leaves me stumped to who vash would personify- an idealised personification of faith itself perhaps? Ngl I'm kinda tempted to say HE'S the mother Mary figure in the sense he's the mother Mary to humanity itself but that is pushing it
Anyhow here's an unrelated graph
I think i was also surpised about how fast the plot was progressing! And also about how easy it was to read, because in the last few years i've gotten used to stories where i had to switch povs or go scavanger hunting for context, (minecraft rps, marvel comics) or those that were so incredibly long that everything took forever to get to. (Homed stuck)
I think youre spot on about Knives and Rem btw. Her and Vash are sharing the Jesus symbolism like it's a family heirloom she passed down to him in my opinion.
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Trigun Stampede episode 7 liveblog
Man I said this two-parter is really focused on Wolfwood, but this episode has his name as the title
Oh I see the destination is an additional threat to him. Huh. I wonder what the purpose of that is? Like just to mess with him, or to make the journey seem appropriately menaced, or what?
I didn't notice before, but it is incredibly funny that the letters front and center are B and L
I feel like half of Wolfwood's gun is like ammo storage lmao, he goes through that fast
Oh actual emoting from Livio! Not looking particularly cognizant, but it's something.
Oh there's Meryl and Roberto! Would not have figured that's how they managed to tag along, but if it works it works haha
The boing noises as the desert raiders are thrown around are fantastic
Vash is wielding his gun, backhand, like a blunt weapon. Possibly as a gauntlet idk. Still. Makes sense for him, but not something I've ever seen before lol
Mmmmhmm and now the "monsters" and "not human" assertions are being foiled.
Between Livio and Rollo, seems like they kinda get stuck on a single sentiment?
"It would have been better without you around" ...ah. I did not expect that and don't know how to respond to it.
Wow, uh. I mean we knew Vash was incredibly accurate at aiming before, but to redirect someone else's gun to land a clean shot (particularly one that has as much heft as Wolfwood's) is rather uncanny.
that method of getting another Worm actually made me gag ugh.
wait hold up what was happening with Livio's reflection. I don't think I recognize it?
Eef. Thought that was how it'd end, but didn't expect him to shoot and fall over the side. (I suppose it's possible that the 'if there isn't a body, they're probably not dead' rule applies here though)
"I just wanted to spread the good word. That's all." You know I think this does in fact hold true to the, uh. Real world weight? That this sort of phrase carries.
Okay this is the first we've heard of a topic that Wolfwood apparently has disagreements with the Eye of Michael over. ...Actually that was on an assumption that it's a decision on an action, not a religious thing. It's Wolfwood's initial verbal disagreement on religion, isn't it.
Switched to Eng dub for a second 'cause I wasn't sure who said the next couple lines, but yeah I think it's clearer that it's about Wolfwood's denial.
Wait speaking of that's also a Christian term too right. Like Judas denies Jesus or something? I know the term is used in relation to those two in particular but I don't actually know the specifics. It's like "one of you will deny me" or "one of you will betray me" and I don't remember which.
Not sure if that really matters in this case, though, since I don't think Bluesummers quite maps to Jesus lol. Anyways.
Okay yeah "Punisher" is definitely being used in relation to Wolfwood himself. Noted.
Lmao the "Hi!~" being in English really sold it
Ooh, worldbuilding. Spacefaring age, okay.
Wait if they're running around to all the controls, where are the people originally driving the ship?
Yay, character exploration and development from Meryl! (and Roberto to a lesser extent)
Oh wait the kid that fell in the first town is alive?? I guess I saw him moving a bit at the end there, but it was a long fall and I thought maybe it was his mom's movements while carrying him.
:0 Vash's arm fractured! Frankly I didn't know it could do that. That's not good.
Oh lmao it's the disproportionate response "Wolfwood..." that kept being memed on.
Oh NOW the title comes up!
Actually wait I saw something on this a while ago, too. They were talking about he asserts he's "the Punisher," then "Nicholas the Punisher," and then the framing basically hits him with a "no :)" That's so funny. Also kind of tragic. But still funny.
Oh hey this is the first time we've seen Vash in this sort of situation since he was a 'plant technician' in the first episode.
it can move in there!?
oh that looks really painful
it's humanoid already!?
maybe I leaned too far into the "oh it's kind of egg shaped" assumption lol
Oop, yep, I guess Livio's not dead. Or uh. Might be dead but isn't out of the picture?
Alright yeah Vash looks pretty out of it.
...was that him hitting the ground? oof.
End Notes:
Again not really much to say here! We got some character details, some worldbuilding details, lots of character development & solidification of relationships, and now some immediate threads to be followed up on (Vash's arm and the Plant reveal thing). Feeling much more invested than when I started the series and interested in seeing how this conversation goes!
I will say. The plant did not look uh. very intimidating. kind of reminds me of the... neopets fairies? I don't think that's right, but like some similar franchise kind of had similar vibes, shape-wise.
...is this the first time the Plant stuff got fully revealed in the show? I went in knowing and haven't been keeping track. I know it was established that Vash is a) non-human b) fell from a spaceship onto the planet and c) had 'relatives' in pods on said spaceship. Not to mention his twin also having pretty obvious markings. But I'm curious about the reasons for the pacing of these reveals, since we got so much of Wolfwood's backstory just last episode.
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