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queen-mabs-revenge · 10 months

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Why Peter Parker Was Not 15 When He Was Bit: A Treatise

This was originally a twitter thread but in an effort to save the one thing I actually care about having posted there from whatever the fuck is going on, here we go!

While early on there aren't any outright 100% indisputable references to Peter's age (i.e. himself or Aunt May just saying it outright on the page), from the very beginning of publishing, there have been enough references that give a firm grounding to Peter being a senior in high school throughout the first 28 issues of Amazing Spider-Man.

ASM 8 (Jan 1964)

Right off the bat in Amazing Spider-Man 8 (a tribute to teenagers xoxo you will always be famous) we get our first definitive mention that Peter and his classmates are in their senior year of high-school at the very least from this point on in the narrative.

ASM 14 (Jul 1964); ASM Annual 1 (Oct 1964)

Peter himself states this 6 issues later trying to wheedle Aunt May into letting him go to Hollywood on assignment from JJJ to cover Spider-Man's cinematic debut in a film role offered to him by the Green Goblin (in his first comic appearance. When I say I love the Silver Age.) ASM Annual 1 confirms that the gang is in their senior year yet again.

This is already stupid long so the rest goes behind the cut!

This isn't something that's just dropped in the Silver Age and then forgotten. 26 years after those first mentions, Web of Spider-Man Annual 4 makes a call back to Amazing Spider-Man 3 and places that moment in Peter's senior year of high-school:

Left: WOS Annual 4 (Oct 1988); Right: ASM 3 (Jul 1963)

While on tour to promote the Bugle-produced book of his Spider-Man photography, WEBS, Peter states on a TV interview that a photo of his first encounter with Doc Ock was taken while he was a senior in high school.

"But Mabs," I hear you say, "so what if he's in his senior year in ASM! Even if that's true, that doesn't mean he was in his senior year in Amazing Fantasy 15, and that still doesn't establish an age! He's a super mega genius so like....he probably skipped grades, prodigy that he is! And there was a time gap btw AF15 and ASM1, right?"

Alright let's go through this. As mentioned earlier, yeah, references to Pete's age are very few and far between and are a bit wobbly but let's put them together. The first age ref we get is in ASM 16:

ASM 16 (Sep 1964)

Here our favorite public defender is "rescued" from a mugging by the webslinger. After Peter fucks off, Matt gives us the above rundown of Spidey's characteristics: about 17, 5'10" and in excellent health. So "about 17" which, granted, doesn't have to mean exactly 17 but since we've established that at this point Peter is def in senior year, based on NYS age matriculation dates, Matt's probably spot on.

New York State matriculates students based on the age they are on December 1st of a school year. A 1976 edition of school regulations lays out the process: "[a] child who attains the age of 5 by December 1 of the current school year must be admitted to the kindergarten if a district operates such a program". So this means that within the same kindergarten class, kids born from the beginning of the school year to November 30th would be turning 5, while kids born from December 1 through the end of the school year would turn 6 during the school year, and kids born over the summer would also turn 6 but wouldn't celebrate during the school year.

Following that, Sept through Nov babies would be 16-going-on-17 in the beginning of their senior year, Dec - June would be 17-going-on-18 during senior year, June - Aug would turn 18 after graduation.

Peter being 17 or 18 during the high-school run of ASM just makes sense and there's nothing in the writing up until this point to push against that! In fact, when you first start seeing the de-aging of Peter creep in, AF15 literally had to be changed to make a younger age fit!

AF 15 (Aug 1962)

ASM Annual 23 (Sep 1989)

The very first time we see 15 floated as an age when Peter becomes Spider-Man is in the Amazing Spider-Man annual 23 of 1989. The annual is trying to present itself as Peter scientifically studying his own origin story, so the direct parallels to AF15 make it really clear when it's retconning the original to make sense with the younger age.

The panel where ASMAnn23 states Peter is 15 is otherwise a near word-for-word quote of AF15. Then later, the cognate panel of Peter in science class changes AF15's "you're sure to rate a scholarship when you graduate" to "in a couple of years when you graduate, you're sure to rate a scholarship." (Gerry Conway back at it again). This is the first time there's ever a hint at his story not being centered around his senior year, and that was made explicit in this issue by changing the original dialogue in order to justify stating he was a 15 year old in this recollection of AF15!

This is also an argument against the 'skipped grades' premise. Conway could have easily just left the text of AF15 as it was which would hint that Peter was obviously very young for being a senior in high school, but instead he tried to push AF15 back in time to fit a usual high-school timeline for a 15 year old (who would be at the earliest a December baby in their freshman year and the latest a Sept-Nov baby in sophomore year, and would be 'a couple of years' away from graduating).

Plus, fr if you're gonna argue that he skipped grades, it's on you to prove that. There are literally zero references to that throughout 616 continuity so like, why tf should it be taken as given? Please.

Anyway. And so are sown the seeds for torturing the already stretched timeline to make Peter an uwu baby infant. They didn't take right away. References to age go away after this and only resurface in 1994 (as far as I could see), where we see him aged back up:

ASM 395 (Nov 1994)

'I can't believe I was only sixteen when that spider bit me' actually makes sense with all of ASM being established as fully in Peter's senior year, Matt gauging him at 'about 17' in ASM 14, the age matriculation cut off for NYS schools, and the timeframe established between AF15 and ASM Annual 1 from 1964:

ASM Annual 1 (Oct 1964)

ASM Annual 1 (which I mentioned earlier as yet another point establishing Peter as being in his senior year) also has this little timestamp. Peter is watching Aunt May mourn for Uncle Ben and mentions that Ben's death was 'months ago'. Granted, that's in no way specific but I feel like it establishes at least a rough timeframe for the intended time gap between AF15 and ASM -- and it's not years.

And to be honest, there's really only one space in the narrative that allows for a time gap at all (Stan is really attached to his 'a few minutes later!' 'later that day!' pacing let me tell you!)

AF 15 (Aug 1962) page 9, panel 1

While the narration box says 'In the days that follow' it seems like we can take that colloquially considering the stream of newspaper headlines. For all of that to take place, I feel like it's not a massive stretch to allow this panel at the very least a month or so, which gives a bit of breathing room between when Peter lets the burglar run away and when Uncle Ben is murdered. (Which if you think about it a delayed dropping of the other shoe actually makes it worse! So how about that!). But between this and ASMAnn1, I don't think you can argue for years taking place in this gap which would have to be the case for a 15-year-old bite timeframe.

So if Peter's bit his senior year, for him to be 16 when he's bit he has to be born between the beginning of the school year and November 30th (because school has to be in session when he's bit). Which fits with the official New York City 2012 declaration of his birthday being October 14:

If he's 16 when bit in his junior year (again, school has to be in sesh), you've got to decide when from December of his junior year to the end of the school year makes sense for him to be bit with the rest of the time markers and how long you're gonna give to the time skip in AF15 for it all to qualify as just 'months' up to ASMAnn1. Which definitely can be done, especially if you AF15 pages 1-8 near the end of his jr year, put the time skip over the summer between junior and senior year, and rest of pages 9-11 in his senior year. In some ways this option makes a bit more sense, to be honest!

The way I personally like to square it is to go with all of AF15 and ASM1-28 happening in Peter's senior year (which he reaches without skipping grades) interpreting the 'when you graduate' in the AF15 panel referring to the same school year. If he's 16, the bite happens sometime before his birthday which has to be before Nov. 30th and, sure, why not Oct 14 -- it fits. A month or so passes between when he gets bit and starts his show-biz stint, and when Ben gets murdered. That means the last 3 pages of AF15 (bar the first panel on pg 9) to ASM28 spans from some time in December of his senior year to the end of the school year.

(If you don't care if he was 16 or 17 when he was bit, AF15 - ASM28 can take place any time from the second half-ish of his junior year to the end of his senior year, you can decide how many 'months' the time skip is in AF15, pick his birthday out of a hat, and Matt's "about 17" could mean 18, too. Have a ball.)

But in any case whichever way you choose to spin it, this shit is dumb and wrong:

Civil War 2 (Aug 2006)

and especially deserves to be memory holed for the ridiculous de-aging of Peter Parker that has subsequently been pushed into popular memory and continues throughout current Marvel 'brand synergy'. Sad and bad!

#proportionate thoughts of a spider #spider-man #peter parker #this is so unnecessarily long lmao i probably should have just left it on twitter tbh #then i'm forcibly shut the fuck up #and like say what you want about jjj but man's not sending a 15 year old out to do crime scene photography #like i just don't think he's *that* unhinged #anyway i'm sure someone will find a logical flaw here but consider this #no you didn't #descriptions in alt text #yes all of them

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the-everqueen · 5 months

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for the AMA: what compels you most in a fictional character!

rage as a trauma response.

it compels me when a character spits in the face of god. when the response isn't "why did you let all this happen" but "how dare you let this happen." something about the assertion of agency in the wake of un-meaning. something about "there was never a Purpose, the point is what you make of it." this is undoubtedly because i was raised evangelical and continue to struggle with what i believe vs what i want to be true. pero also i think i was denied anger for so long (and even now my reflex when i'm hurt is to divert/repress/hide/sublimate anger) that it's cathartic for SOMEONE to get to be mad at the powers that be.

misogyny means it's usually (white) male characters who get these narrative arcs. this is evident in my blorbos: astarion from bg3, the corinthian from sandman, will graham from hannibal. (my immediate first thought was actually emilio sandoz from the sparrow, very literal autistic brain serving me well here lmao, what does it mean to be god's whore.) but my favorite female and genderqueer characters have this, too. saga anderson from alan wake 2 (LITERALLY tells both the in-game narrative force and the meta "fuck off, i'm done with other people writing my story"). essun from the broken earth trilogy (everyone who says they can't connect to her...i need you to examine yourself for misogynoir). vic from nos4a2. eurydice from hadestown. erica slaughter from something is killing the children. jade from my heart is a chainsaw.

(horror is obviously a huge medium for this...the final girl is a figure of righteous anger, the avenging angel, the woman who mows down the ultimate horror with a baseball bat or a butcher knife and she's right, she's in the right, she's the monster slayer, fuck you fear me.)

#ask games #AMA #crimeronan #this was SUCH a good ask thank you #also i'm not gonna write a whole essay here in the tags but i think part of why i adore horror #and why i have a hard time connecting to ''literary fiction'' women IS that allowance for rage #what a genre considers acceptable female rage sometimes feels So Hollow compared to what i might let myself feel irl #i like my trauma-rage bloody and awful #SOMEONE needs to pay in flesh #weirdly stephen king is really good at this when he lets himself do it? beverly from IT and arguably It from IT are peak #Women Should Do Crimes Actually #unfortunately most of the time Stephen King sucks at letting women be people #SO INSTEAD i recommend Stephen Graham Jones who just consistently does this #i ALSO don't think it's a coincidence that my favorite queer and women creators who write these arcs are also not white #nonwhite queer and female rage is Threatening To The Status Quo

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