#spuffy vs bangel
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I hope you don't mind me asking, but what are your thoughts on angel x buffy? :)
Hii i don't mind, thank you for asking 😊
So, I used to love bangel sooooo much when i first watched the show. I was 100% into it, (with a crush for Boreanaz too) and i cried so much for them in s2 and when Angel left the show in s3. And I truly, sincerely, unironically hated Spike too (I thought he was a great character but i just loved hating him, you know? Lol). When we saw Spike's dream of kissing Buffy I swear i felt nauseous.
... and then they aired Fool for love.
By the end of that episode I was left in utter existential crisis in front of my tv because i felt my whole world shift. There was a part of me that still liked Angel and Buffy, but there was also this new part that wanted her to be with Spike now.
So anyway, that's when i decided to switch teams and i became team spuffy, and for as much as i had been obsessed with bangel before, it was nothing compared to how deep i was caught into the Buffy and Spike relationship. I never looked back. They were just much more complex and real and compelling. And it made me reevaluate Angel and her relationship with him too. Angel never really knew Buffy, always treated her like a child, and let's be honest--and that's something that hit me only years later when I got older--she was a child when they were together. He was spying on her and falling in love with her when she was just fifteen years old and he was a 240-year-old vampire who had been sired at like 26 years old, and they got together when she was 16/17 and he broke up with her when she turned 18... I don't think that's something the writers did intentionally of course, because (as everything else in buffy) it's just meant to be taken as a metaphor for the ideals and struggles and the intensity of drama of a girl's first love, but it still comes off as icky.
And before anyone comes at me, I know spuffy isn't healthy either, but that's kinda the point and the appeal. First of all, it's fiction and a metaphor, and secondly, it's about two broken people that are supposed to be mortal enemies but are actually two sides of the same coin, so different and yet so much the same, who can understand each other as a whole, light and darkness, in a way that no one else ever could, who yes, hurt each other along the way, but whose love saved them from the deepest darkness, ultimately bringing them into the light.
This is what spuffy is to me, and this is why i think it's not only the superior ship, but one of the best ships of all time (thee best, until i saw destiel, now they're sharing the podium).
So anyway, to get back to your question, the moment i became obsessed with Buffy and Spike (and i have been ever since 2005, lmao, they've been my first real obsession, alongside btvs, until spn and destiel) Angel sort of became the enemy 😅. And I hated him so so so so so much when he appeared in 7x21 and kissed Buffy (pure fanservice, but okay) and brought the medallion that ultimately killed Spike. So i spent years very maturely holding my vendetta against Angel (like, rooting for every demon that fought against him when I watched Angel, lmaoo). In most recent years, I've (sort of) made my peace with the character, after rewatching Angel. I mean he's still the enemy (of course, duh!! Who am i if not eternally petty??) but i appreciate him in his own show.
So i don't ship Angel and Buffy anymore, but I can understand why someone would (as i myself used to), and more importantly, i respect other people's right to ship them.
If we're joking, I'm going to insult Angel and keep saying he's the enemy. But on a mature serious note, I think Buffy and Angel were a great first love (for Buffy), but they were supposed to be just that, the impossible teenage girl's dream of a first love, eternal but doomed to end and break your heart.
I think Angel was much more well paired with Cordelia (which is something I'd never think I'd say), and i found myself shipping them so much when I rewatched the show. It felt so much more mature and profound than what we saw with Buffy and Angel (and that's probably due to the fact that we got slow burn for them - as we did for Buffy and Spike- and could actually see the feelings growing, while Buffy crushed on Angel in the pilot and she was madly in love (as teenagers do) in 0.5 seconds for no apparent reason than the fact that he was hot and mysterious.
So when I say the kiss in btvs 7x21 makes zero sense, I'm not just talking about spuffy, but also about cangel. I feel like both characters parted ways and lived on in their own shows to grow and become their own persons, developing other relationships that were more adult and meaningful, and that kiss was just disrespectful for both (but anyways, it doesn't change anything).
I have so many thoughts about all this honestly, and I hope I haven't gone too much off the tangent with my reply, but i couldn't just give you a simple reply because that would've had to be something like "angel is the enemy and i don't like bangel" but as you can see my thoughts are a little more complex than that 😅
#btvs#spuffy#spuffy vs bangel#anti bangel#buffy x spike#angel x cordelia#cangel#my commentary#my opinion#asks#asks answered#@anniemurphy#sorry it took me a little while to reply but i wanted to give a thoughtful answer <3
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#btvs#buffy the vampire slayer#buffy summers#xander harris#willow rosenberg#rupert giles#btvs polls#buffy#spuffy vs bangel let's go!
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uncovering very interesting james marsters quotes on this day:
[on Sarah Michelle Gellar being "Team Angel"] "Well, I have to say, I really messed with her a lot, so perhaps there's more to her choice than just what happened on the show, I grew up as a subversive artist, and you have to be so polite to the lead on a film all the time - whether they're nice or not - so something about that stuck in my craw and I would, sometimes, lovingly mess with her. It's mean, but I couldn't help myself. So, maybe I understand why she said that."
#here's the thing. i'm not about to have a spuffy vs bangel argument.#y'all know my preferences. And my adamant dislike of angel/bangel.......#but this is a very interesting perspective#bc i always sensed smg's opinion was not purely based on cannon#and possibly on her personal relationship w david#her very close and intimate (speculatively) relationship#it's just a thought that i will shamelessly admit to think about quite a bit#bc i am a bitter bitch and very much dislike ''losing''#just in case ->#anti angel#anti bangel#spuffy#btvs
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my opinions on bangel vs spuffy are like. angel creates a formative trauma in buffy which spike then exploits to manipulate her. angel was an adult who preyed on a teenager for emotional intimacy spike was an adult who preyed on a much younger woman for sex. the way people on this website in the year 2023 are still interested in proving which one was her "true love" baffles me like did we not watch the same show?? are we not here to dissect how fascinatingly fucked up these relationships were and how freeing it is that buffy ends the story without a man?
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spike’s soul & his place as buffy’s shadow
sometimes i feel like everything that can be said about soul lore/discourse has already been said but sometimes i read some soul takes that are SO far from how i see souls and vampirism on btvs that i just need to talk about it.
i don't really care if people agree or disagree with me here. i just want to share how i have always seen it, especially in terms of spike bc he’s my rotten soldier etc. it would get too long if i brought angel into it too much, but i do have to mention him. HOWEVER, this isn’t an angel vs. spike or bangel vs. spuffy conversation.
so first off, i think as the show went on the soul lore did change from a writing stand point but from an in universe pov i think the idea that when you get turned you die and your entire soul is ripped out is just so plain wrong.
the way i have always read it is more like: you die and a demon possesses your body, but leaves just enough of your soul in there for you to still be you to some degree. because otherwise all vampires would have the same personality etc and they don't.
you, or the essence of you, is still there but it is suppressed by a demon most of the time. in other terms, you are driving your car but there is someone stronger than you holding your hands and controlling where you go and what you do. it's still your car, you are still technically driving but how much of it is you and how much of it is someone controlling you? if you run someone over, who's fault is it in this scenario? that’s something much more horrific to think about than the black and white, “it’s not you.” version of being soulless imo.
[more under the cut, this got long]
now, why do i see it like this? spike. literally just spike because he straight up tells buffy how it feels to be soulless vs ensouled in 7x02. he is rambling and not making much sense unless you really pay attention and pick what he is trying to say apart.
"angel- he should've warned me. he makes a good show of forgetting, but it's here, in me, all the time. the spark."
i’ve always read this line as saying that the spark/soul is always there. it’s not ripped out entirely. and when you get the rest of your soul back- your empathy, your moral compass (or lack thereof!) - you can become stronger than the demon that possessed you and used your body to do things you would never do otherwise.
an argument i have seen a few times is that spike is the same person before and after he gets his soul back. william is spike, spike is william - and i just do not think it’s that simple. to say that it is kind of insulting to his journey imo. i genuinely think spike is unique and different to other vampires, and this is something the comics do address. spike is different because was he was capable of changing, when being a vampire is about stagnancy. spike was capable of change because that is what he represents to buffy.
buffy has two vampire lovers. one at the beginning of her journey and one at the end.
to me, angel represents the life she could have had if she had never been a slayer. angel is all her teenage hopes and dreams that she can never have, which is why he can never be with her and can never change without losing his soul because buffy can never be just a regular teenage girl. angel is a stagnant person in buffy’s life because that part of her life is stagnant, she will always be the slayer, she cannot change that just like angel cannot be happy with her without losing his soul. their relationship just cannot move forward.
now, spike is buffy’s shadow. spike, as a character, is part of buffy. spike represents all of the things buffy hates about herself. she and spike are very similar people, and when she looks at spike and recognizes part of herself in him, it disgusts her. figurately this is about how buffy is struggling to be the slayer. to be good. to be a hero. and these struggles progressively get harder and harder which is why her relationship with spike grows more volatile as the show progresses into season six.
season five is when buffy really, truly starts to struggle and this is also the season that spike realizes he is in love with her. this love is obsessive. it’s possessive. it’s unhealthy. because he doesn’t have a soul, yes! but also because it represents how desperately buffy is trying to keep loving herself, to keep being the slayer. this is also where buffybot comes in for me, how buffy is trying so hard but it’s not real. her mother is dying, then she does die, and she has to start pretending that she’s okay, she still loves her friends and loves life but it is getting harder and her love for life and strength to carry on is waning and becoming more and more artificial. robotic, you could say.
but from spike’s perspective, i have always thought that the reason his love presents itself the way it does is because william is such a good person that he could sometimes override the demon possessing him, and this is elevated by the chip suppressing the demon to an extent and allowing his true feelings to surface. but since there IS a demon possessing him, he is desperate to prove that he really does love her and it comes out sideways because his moral compass is being suppressed. this is something the comics also address:
“there was always good in you, spike. so strong it didn’t need a soul to come out.”
think about angel. he literally could not love buffy when he didn’t have a soul. because he is fundamentally a bad person so when he is soulless he cannot override the monster, because he doesn’t WANT TO. this is textual!
from 3x10:
“it told me to kill you. you were in the dream. it told me to lose my soul in you and become a monster again. [....] i wanted to! i want you so badly! i want to take comfort in you, and i know it'll cost me my soul and a part of me doesn't care. look, I'm weak. i've never been anything else. it's not the demon in me that needs killing, buffy. it's the man.”
this isn’t to say angel is a piece of shit garbage man who i detest. he just represents everything buffy can never have and HAS to let go of in order to be the slayer. angel can be good, his version of good, with the right people - but in buffy’s story that isn’t what he is.
whereas spike represents the things about herself that she HAS to accept to fulfill her destiny and to be in complete alignment with herself. everyone has darkness in them, and when you make peace with that darkness you can use it for good. which is where spike getting his soul back stems from.
season six is a controversial season, and some of those reasons are very warranted, but i also think it’s the most important season for buffy. buffy has lost all will to live. she is suicidal, she is FULL of self loathing and she feels dead inside. she gravitates to spike because he is as dead inside as she feels she is. but also because he is the only person who she can show her own darkness to and there is a relief in that but she hates that. which is why she pushes him away. the most obvious example of this is in 6x13, when she accidentally kills a girl and wants to turn herself in. she killed a person so the morally “correct” thing would be to go to the police. but as spike says, how many people has she saved? and if she goes to jail, how many more people will die because she isn’t out there being the slayer? that scene isn’t her fighting spike, that’s her fighting HERSELF.
i am of the mind that buffy did fall in love with spike in season six. i think that relationship, as toxic as it was, is what kept her from completely spinning out of control (as we see in once more with feeling) but as much as she loved spike, as much as she wanted him, she could not connect to him and as much as spike loved buffy, as much as he would’ve already died for her - he could never have free will without his soul. he could never fully trust himself or his feelings with the demon still there. because they’re BOTH THERE.
spike getting his soul back serves multiple purposes. it proves that he DID love her without his soul, because he went to hell and back for it. it also is about him having free will and control over himself and his body - but most importantly it is about buffy and how she is beginning to find the will to live again, she is FEELING again.
from 6x22
“things have really sucked lately, but it's all gonna change. and i wanna be there when it does. i want to see my friends happy again. and I want to see you [dawn] grow up. the woman you're gonna become. because she's gonna be beautiful. and she’s gonna be powerful. i got it so wrong. i don’t want to protect you from the world, i want to show it to you. there’s so much i want to show you.”
and then LITERALLY the next scene is spike getting his soul slammed back into his body. buffy learning to love herself, learning to love life again is directly tied to spike’s soul because spike’s place in her life is about change and coming into power. the good and the bad and how they often overlap.
so is spike the same person in season seven (and onwards) as he was before? no. and yes. and that’s what makes him so interesting. i’ve seen people say spike doesn’t go back to calling himself william as a point that he didn’t change after 6x22, but he DOES - “william is a bad man.”
but what i have always enjoyed about spike is his ability to come to terms with himself and his past and make amends. he comes to terms with the fact that a demon was controlling him - not through buffy, but through wood and his memories of his mother. once he breaks the first’s brainwashing, he is able to finally see and accept what buffy was saying in 7x09 when she said it wasn’t his fault. but that doesn’t mean he isn’t accountable, that doesn’t mean he throws away who he has been forced to be for a century. he is still william - he always was, but he accepts that he is spike too. he has all the memories of all the things he was forced to do, but instead of letting them stop him from being good he makes peace with it as much as he can and moves forward.
buffy being able to love spike in season seven is about her being able to love herself. it’s about accepting every part of herself, even the parts she once hated or was ashamed of. so when she tells spike she loves him in the finale, as their joined hands burst into flames, her journey as the slayer is complete. she loves her own darkness, she has the fire back.
that’s what their entire relationship is about. it’s about change. it’s about learning to love your shadow. so to say spike didn’t change after getting his soul back, to me, is a complete misread of spike and his relationship with buffy.
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When I keep seeing polls for BtVS ships and it's like Spuffy VS Bangel (and sometimes) VS Fuffy
Cries in Spangel shipper
Has it ever occurred to you that I think Spike and Angel should just go off and fuck nasty?
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STRIKING DIFFERENCES: SPUFFY VS BANGEL
I’m usually not a SPUFFY VS BANGEL person but if you put ‘Something Blue’ and ‘I Will Remember You’ side by side in a comparison/juxtaposition gif set… oh boy… does it ever show that they were backing up the wrong couple from the get go for being “healthier”.
“We’re not meant to be together” because of extenuating circumstances involving our responsibilities and destinies as The Slayer and The Champion and “We’re not meant to be together”because we’re literally mortal enemies who happen to forget it sometimes because we’re just people too.
Never mind that “I’m an evil demon” nonsense.
Moot point when “You’re just a girl”/“That’s what I keep saying” and “Timmy’s down the bloody well!”…
Bangel find all the reasons NOT TO BE TOGETHER even though they’re afforded everything that LETS THEM BE. Spuffy END UP TOGETHER despite the whole damn world telling that them IT’S ALL WRONG.
I’m just saying,… someone should make that gif set.
#buffy the vampire slayer#spike and buffy#spuffy#buffy and angel#bangel#something blue#i will remember you#striking differences#2 for 1#I would like romantic tragedy and domestic bliss in a handbasket please#what do you mean they can’t be sold together?#oh#they’re incompatible#one literally cancels out the other#you’re saying a couple not being together means that they shouldn’t be#because they don’t know actually know each other#I see#never mind then#just domestic bliss please#it’s the healthier option#I will consume#oh they’re under a spell#but wait… what exactly is this spell?#it’s a spell brought on accidentally by somebody else’s feelings of jealousy#the actual people that are under it are just being unhibited happy idiots#so you’re saying their feelings are real but their situation isn’t?#and that’s a problem?#and the opposite is better?#you weird confusing people#spuffy ftw
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Using a beloved anti-hero/fictional serial killer - Dexter to illustrate a point about buffy - STAY WITH ME lol HEAR ME OUT OK
Imagine if during Dexter we got a season where something happened to him where the guilt of killing somehow became enough to stop him needing to kill (he still had the impulse but could control it and not act in it) and he became tasked with being the protector and guardian of a 15 year old girl of a person he killed as penance. A way to right a wrong and work towards his redemption for all the innocent lives he took along the way for the sake of his survival and not getting caught. (Not penance for the actual evil ppl he killed just to clarify)
And INSTEAD when she’s 16 he starts to develop a romantic relationship with her, openly discussing that it’s wrong but not doing anything of substance to stop it from happening and their relationship eventually causes him to start killing again and he doesn’t do anything to stop the girl from believing it’s her fault. Eventually Dexter abandons her when he realizes she holds no true redemption for himself and maybe he is just causing her more harm than good but does continue to lead her on by making her believe if one day he does enough good they can finally be together - you know like this young girl is his reward for being a good enough boy.
This is the framework for Buffy and Angel’s relationship without the vampires and the 231 year age gap.
If you enjoy Bangel I will never judge or shame you for it we all get to like what we like freely because at the end of the day it’s fictional and liking things in fiction never hurt anyone.
BUT if you’re a bangel who likes to act morally superior and judge spuffy’s and cry “seeing red” every chance you get (which truly just like WHY we all will never forget, that moment was so traumatizing for everyone involved including the actors. Spuffys just look at everything AFTER that episode that was Spike’s fantastic redemption arc and Buffy’s forgiveness, as well as everything that came before (the context that spike and buffy had a very blurred boundaries, sexual and physical relationship without a safe word and with established treatment of each other that lied WELL outside the norms of healthy relationships with regular humans without superpowers and super strength) Rather than the traumatizing standalone attempted SA scene from buffy that was the ONLY ONE that was actually filmed in a graphic and horrifying way vs alllll the other ones that blow right past actual SA or severely violating memories/minds/bodily autonomy - angel, willow, faith, ethan, giles/the council and xander’s violations of buffy, spike, riley, anya, giles and tara to name just the examples I can think of off the top of my head - angel, willow, faith, giles and ethan all with souls when they did it! vs soulless spike.
Maybe reconsider not throwing stones from your glass house when my ship’s framework without the vampires is: two enemies who have killed a lot of the other’s side and who were tasked with killing each other but instead fall in love despite their best efforts not to (not without hurting each other in the process of course, it literally would not be ENEMIES to lovers if they didn’t do awful things to each other along the way we are fully aware of both spike and buffy’s problematic behaviors) but both being SIGNIFICANTLY better people for it by the end of both the tv show and the comics because they both take accountability, apologize and seek to right their wrongs when they do cause that harm to each other and treat each other as equals.
Basically bangels and spuffys will NEVER agree or see things eye to eye because of the vastly different nature of these two frameworks of relationship dynamics so stick to your respective sides of the fandoms and we can all just have a chill, fun, sexy, sad, peaceful time lol ok? OK thanks 💜
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The Sunnydale Herald Newsletter, Friday, April 19
(Faith engages Caleb in a fight, but she's not fazing him.)
CALEB: (looks Faith up and down) Well, you're the other one, aren't you. Your Cain to her Abel. (Faith throws a knife at Caleb) No offense meant to Cain, of course.
(Faith attacks Caleb with her other knife, but he grabs her arm, and holds her in place. Faith is forced to drop her knife, then knees him in the crotch, and Caleb lets her go.)
(Faith backhands Caleb across the face, then speaks through gritted teeth.)
FAITH: Never was much for the good book.
~~Dirty Girls~~
[Drabbles & Short Fiction]
Goodbye by Enigmatist (Angel, Spike, not rated)
Understanding by Enigmatist (Spike, Anya, not rated)
Something To Be Proud Of by badly_knitted (Buffy, Giles, Willow, G)
Untitled [would you still love me?] by scooby-group-texts (Buffy, Riley, worksafe, posted as an image)
By a whisker by squiddz (Buffy/Spike, PG-13)
[Chaptered Fiction]
Forgiveness - Ch. 30 by slaymesoftly (R)
The Setup - Ch. 1 by Acb6293 (Buffy/Spike, M)
Centerfold - Ch. 1 by all choseny, Passion4Spike, MissLuci (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
The Setup - Ch. 1 by acb6293 (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Sweet Dreams (Or A Beautiful Nightmare) - Ch. 1 by goodbyetoyou (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Bathroom Wall - Ch. 2 by hulettwyo (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Green Eyed Monster - Ch. 4 by Melme1325 (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Angel Doesn’t Know - Ch. 3 by fortes775 (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Hello Cutie - Ch. 5 by CheekyKitten (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Forgiveness Doesn't Come Easy - Ch. 30 by slaymesoftly (Buffy/Spike, R)
Goodbye to Everything That I Knew - Ch. 30 by fortes775 COMPLETE! (Buffy/Spike, R)
To All We Guard - Ch. 20 by simmony (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Dawn Rising - Ch. 58 by Luna (Buffy centered, LOTR xover, FR15)
With Sprinkles - Ch. 40 by dogbertcarroll (Xander centered, Anime xover, FR15)
Centerfold - Ch. 1 by all choseny , Passion4Spike, MissLuci (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
The Setup - Ch. 1 by Acb6293 (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Bathroom Wall - Ch. 2 by hulettwyo (Buffy/Spike, NC-17 (unclear))
Forgiveness Doesn't Come Easy - Ch. 30 by Slaymesoftly (Buffy/Spike, R)
[Images, Audio & Video]
Artwork: i drew spike- by the-emo-cockroach (Spike, worksafe)
Moodboard: "You've got a world of strength in your heart. You just have to find it again." by muffinwalloper (Buffy-centric, Dawn, Scoobies, worksafe)
Moodboard: Jenny Calendar - Buffy the vampire slayerby awinterrosesstuff (Jenny, worksafe)
Gifset: S05E07: Fool for love S05E22: The Gift by jennifersminds (Spike, worksafe)
Gifset: [You alone can stop them. Who?] by buffysource (Buffy, worksafe)
Gifset: FAITH LEHANE | BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER (1997 - 2003) by andremichaux (Faith, worksafe)
Gifset: ANGEL | 3.11 Bonus by andremichaux (Cordelia, worksafe)
Artwork: The Embarrassing Freak Couple Chronicles - Ch. 2 by HappyWhenItRains (Buffy/Spike, worksafe but rated R)
[Reviews & Recaps]
However rude I am on here about the final season of Buffy... by coraniaid
Opinions on Angel Spin-Off? [reviews in replies] by AsiaRoots
Had no idea season 6 was so controversial among fans by moonb3an
[Community Announcements]
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[Fandom Discussions]
spuffy meme dump 💥 by spikespeaches
Btvs really went off with the Gentlemen, huh? by nicnacsnonsense
There is something about Riley that just feels so… manufactured. And not Riley the person, Riley the character. by nicnacsnonsense
[Buffy/Spike] by littlenastieswewhispered
See the thing about Xander to me is that he’s like my best friends little brother. by fictiongods
POLL: Bangel vs Sprusilla by buffyverse-divorce-tournament [multiple other polls also posted]
BtVS robot rankings (as of season 5) by breezybeej
My tier list of happy, healthy relationships in Buffy by WORD_559
Gunn in The Price by TelephoneCertain5344
Who would have win in a fight? Robin Wood or Charles Gunn? by Simple-Ceasar
Buffy wasn't really that Cold General in S7 by brwitch
If Buffy had become Dark Buffy, who would bring her back? by Cailly_Brard7
For fans who watched when it aired: did people know about Willow and Tara? by toadontherock
Dark willow [funny appearance] by horoshev
What "normal" jobs do you think the Scooby gang might have had post-canon? by halyasgirl
Did anyone else wish Cordelia stayed in Buffy instead of going to Angel? by Catac0
If the powers that be were present in BtVS, would they have allowed buffys death? by Crazyhowthatworks304
The original season 4 storyline would have been worse for Cordelia as a character. by Responsible-Try-7470
POLL: More redeemable? Kennedy or Forrest by jdpm1991
Who was the better main/supporting character? [discussion of most ATS characters] by Chase_Elliott_fan9
Top 5 Favorite Episodes by cicigal8
Spike and Buffy [great character growth] by AsiaRoots
Which characters from the Buffyverse had the utmost potential, but unfortunately the writers rarely/never tapped into it? by PristineSituation498
Xander's hypocrisy. by No-Intention-1948
[Articles, Interviews, and Other News]
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This really belongs on my sideblog but it's not fully formed yet. I wanted to compare Bangel v. Spuffy v. Fuffy in terms of episodes where they have scenes together. In the Buffyverse. (BTVS TV or ATS TV eps, the comics and books don't count.) So this means where Angel, Spike, or Faith have scenes with Buffy. (Not the BuffyBot or TheFirstEvilBuffy but Buffy herself.)
So to start with it's what episodes were both characters in? I'll call this the pre-count. (I'll review later for actual scenes together, I think there's quite a few for Spike where he and Buffy don't actually interact.)
Spuffy ep pre-count: 96 (inc. 0 on ATS)
Bangel ep pre-count: 56 (inc. 2 on ATS)
Fuffy ep pre-count: 21 (inc. 1 on ATS)
So not only am I a (deeply obsessed) fan of a 20 year old show, I'm a fan of a ship that has 21 potential interactions. (I'm already 99% sure that Faith has a scene with Buffy in all 21 of these, but for accuracy's sake I'll still use the word potential.)
21 vs. 56!! 21 vs. 96!! TRULY. WILD.
We are so full on such meager crumbs.
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I’ve seen a few times now people say that Sarah Michelle Gellar and David Boreanaz didn’t have chemistry. I don’t understand how anyone can deny that those two have chemistry. It radiates off the screen. It feels offensive to even suggest that they don’t have chemistry, in my opinion, because it is so undeniable.
Do you find that people’s understanding of chemistry in media is lacking, in recent times?
Yes, I used to argue about it a lot on this blog and then just got tired and that's why the chemistry master list exists but in the early days of my blog I would write about dynamic vs chemistry and how people would let how they feel about dynamic, whether they like it or not influence whether or not they think a pairing has chemistry or confuse a dynamic for chemistry or assume two attractive people have chemistry etc. etc.
but stuff like that is all in the master list. I spoke about it vaguely with Bangel vs Spuffy -- which isn't in the master list so I'll post it here and then put it in the master list.
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Goncharov Index for BTVS ships
It's been a while! This is a quick post on the Goncharov Index for BTVS. (Inspired by non-BTVS things like this complaint and this poll.)
Basically Goncharov Index = GI = your works / Goncharov works. As of today Goncharov has 777 works on AO3.
BTVS fandom: 38,932 works (nothing filtered out, so includes crossovers, so also includes ATS crossovers) ===> GI = 50
ATS fandom: 6,535 works (filtered out BTVS crossovers) ===> GI = 8
Buffyverse fandom (BTVS + ATS): 45,467 works ===> GI = 59
And what about the ships? This is a little weird because we are comparing one ship to a whole fandom, but then again Goncharov is a fake Tumblr-fever-dream so what the hell.
We already know the top 5 ships in BTVS. Oh WAIT! Actually this is a little different now. There is another top ship now and the order has changed too. I'll have to do a separate post about that. (An old archive that focused on Giles/Buffy got imported into AO3, so there's a new top ship.)
Spike x Buffy (Spuffy): 6,215 works ===> GI = 8.0
Buffy x Angel (Bangel): 2,377 works ===> GI = 3.1
Giles x Buffy (BG): 2,232 works ===> GI = 2.9
Spike x Xander (Spander): 1,989 works ===> GI = 2.6
Tara x Willow (Tillow): 1,692 works ===> GI = 2.2
Faith x Buffy (Fuffy): 1,487 works ===> GI = 1.9
Bangel moved past Spander for number of works! The numbers above are technically for any fandom. (From a quick glance at comparing the numbers overall vs just in the BTVS fandom the difference is small.)
If you are curious about the next largest ships on AO3, after these 6, it's Xander/Anya, Angel/Spike, Dru/Spike, and then Jenny/Giles.
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Every Argument About “Buffy” On The Internet, From 1998 Until Now
Joss Whedon: Inventer Of Feminism Or Literal Hitler?
Joss Whedon invented feminism. Before Joss Whedon, every female character on television was crushed to death under the weight of her male co-stars’ heavier paychecks in the second-season finale.
Every female character Joss Whedon ever wrote was forcibly impregnated by a demon and brutally murdered, because Joss Whedon hates lesbians.
But Warren And The Trio Were –
EVERYONE GETS THAT WARREN AND THE TRIO REPRESENTED THE THREAT OF NON-SUPERNATURAL MISOGYNY, YOU DON’T GET CREDIT FOR PICKING UP ON THAT
Joss Whedon Doesn’t Understand What Bisexuality Is
Willow Identifies As Gay And You Are Robbing Her Of Self-Determination Because She Doesn’t Have A “Gold Star”
I’d Feel More Comfortable With Willow’s Lesbianism If It Weren’t Sometimes Equated With Drug Addiction, Literal Vampirism, And Megalomania
But She Was Clearly In Love With Oz
Who Are You To Say What Love Is
Dark Willow Was Pretty Hot, Though
Yeah, Dark Willow Was Super Hot
I’d Watch Dark Willow And Doppelgangland-Era Willow Hook Up If It Weren’t A Patriarchal Fantasy
Spuffy Is Problematic
Bangel Is A Child’s Delusion Of What Love Is
Spuffy Is Literally Assault
Okay But He Felt Really Bad About It And Didn’t Have A Soul
Waif-Fu And Thermodynamics: You Can’t Violate The Law Of Conservation Of Momentum
Season Six Felt Like Watching My Friends Get Murdered In Slow Motion Right In Front Of Me
It Was Worth It For Once More, With Feeling, Though
No, It Wasn’t
Doublemeat Palace Cancels Out Once More, With Feeling
Doublemeat Palace Cancels Out My Childhood
Xander Is The Only Character Who Retains Their Humanity On The Entire Show
Xander Is A Greater Monster Than Angelus And Invented “Nice Guy” Syndrome
Buffy Started To Falter After Angel Premiered
No, Buffy Started To Falter After Firefly Premiered
No, Buffy Has Never Faltered And Is Still On The Air
Buffy Started To Falter When Angel/Faith/Buffy Came Back
Buffy Was Better When It Was A Movie With Kristy Swanson
What If Evil?
Dark Willow Straight-Up Flayed a Dude!
Extremism In the Pursuit of Love Is No Vice
If a Dude Had Flayed Willow, Would We Be Cheering?
Everyone Was Too Hard On Dawn For Being A Regular Human Being
Don’t You Dare Try To Retroactively Justify Dawn
Oz vs. Tara
Oz Was Boring; Tara Was Too Good For This Sinful Earth
Tara Was Boring; Oz Was The Greatest Love Interest In Television History; Remember That Animal Crackers Monologue
What About Kenned–
SHUT UP ABOUT KENNEDY
Jenny Calendar And Race-Bending
Is It Important That Buffy Is Decidedly Not Book Smart?
Not Everyone Is Book Smart, That Is Elitist
Buffy is the Lady Channing Tatum of being Body Smart and That Is Sufficient
It Is a Tremendous Problem and Girls Should Not Watch This Show Or They Will Not Take College Seriously
I Shouldn’t Have To Watch Angel In Order To Appreciate Cordelia’s Growth As A Character
Shaming: Everyone Is Shamed
“Beer Bad” Is Slut-Shaming
“Beer Bad” Is Substance-Shaming and Preachy
“Beer Bad” Is Just a Terrible Episode
Angel Losing His Soul After He Has Sex With Buffy is Slut-Shaming
THE EPISODE WHERE WILLOW ATTENDS THE WICCAN MEETING IS WICCAN-SHAMING WICCANS ARE REAL WE ARE NOT YOUR PUNCHLINE
KENDRA’S ACCENT THOUGH
Was It Irish Sometimes, Or Was That Just Me?
Her Accent is Perfect, and Not To Be Questioned
Activating All Potential Slayers Was An Act Of Patriarchal Violence
Slaying Is Empowering
No, Slayers Were Literally Created When A Woman Of Color Was Forcibly Invaded By A Demonic Essence
Oh, Right
But Then They Get To Beat Up Everybody
Dark Willow Straight-Up Flayed a Dude
#btvs#buffy#Every Argument About “Buffy” On The Internet From 1998 Until Now#Joss is a piece of trash#From The Toast#repost
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My Actual Opinions on the Bangel vs Spuffy Ship War
Ok first off lemme just say a couple things. I think ship wars are pretty dumb and personally try not to engage in them.
But...I do have opinions on Bangel and Spuffy and (guess what?) I do prefer one over the other.
Neither are my OTP, ok (that would be Spangel). And I like aspects of both.
But...I do like one more than the other.
And...I like Bangel better.
It's not that I dislike Spuffy or think it's a bad ship (ok, Seeing Red makes me very uncomfy but I'm willing to at least partially chalk up the existence of that ep to bad writing). In all honesty, I connect emotionally much more to Bangel. It's probably because where I am in my life right now, I connect much more to sort of the idealized, soft romantic kind of love. Bangel scenes just get me emotional in a way that a lot of Spuffy scenes...just don't do it for me. And it's not that I don't emotionally connect to Spuffy at all, because there's certainly moments where I've connected to Spuffy. It's just that I connect more consistently to Bangel.
And I think that overall, I just connect/like Angel better than Spike. Like. I like them both a lot. But I like Angel more consistently. I'm trying to think of a moment where I disliked Angel and where I'm sure there were a few I'm drawing a blank. As for Spike, when I like him I really do like him, but when I dislike him, I really dislike him. I'm not anti ether one of them or either of the aforementioned ships.
I've written a little Bangel and some Spuffy and a lot of Spangel, and then I've written some bizarre crack-y stuff like Xander/Drusilla.
So yeah. My opinions. I do have them.
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With all my Bangel VS Cangel talk recently it probably does come across like I hate Bangel. This isn’t true.
I don’t hate Bangel at all. I just don’t ship them as that all-encompassing true love/soulmates ship many do.
I wanted to root for them. I really did. But with pretty much everything with them or revolving around them - all that I could see was red flags everywhere. How can I put my support and faith into a dynamic like Buffy and Angel’s when they can’t even put their support and faith into each other most of the time?
That’s not a relationship. I don’t care what anyone says. And it’s not a Bangel VS Spuffy conflict either. I’m not saying what I do just because I ship Spuffy. It would be shallow and petty and pathetic if that was the only reason why I go so hard against Bangel. I’m not into that whole fandom stan/ship wars business.
I genuinely CANNOT see the appeal in Bangel at all.
I can see the appeal in Spuffy despite the mutual abuse. They have the same appeal for me so of course I can… but it’s not about them why I say what I do. And it’s not because I hate the individual characters in the ship either. I’ve actually come to like Angel a lot in his show. His development from who he was in ‘BtVS’ to ‘AtS’ is significant. He is so much more interesting. And I’ve always liked Buffy. I just find it difficult to focus on her character arc because of how painful it is.
Bangel is not a healthy relationship to me at all. A healthy relationship is one that makes both people in it better people for being together and because of the positive influence that they have on each other. I could barely stand either of them when they were together. They honestly both came across as awful people. You know what really threw the nail in the proverbial coffin for me though? The moment I gave up even trying to pretend that Bangel meant anything to me? The moment I knew their relationship was done for good?
‘I Will Remember You’
It’s funny. So many people regard that episode as Bangel’s episode. Their great tragic romance episode.
It’s certainly tragic alright. But it’s not romantic. It’s not something I watch and think “they’re so 😍”
I watch that and I think “what the bloody hell is the point of them in the first place?” It’s true - love makes you do insane things. But if one of those insane things is purposefully preventing any happiness for you and your love out of a scare that may not even come true…
It’s not their great tragic romance episode at all.
It’s their ‘Hell’s Bells’. And even that relationship still had all the potential to be salvaged despite how absolutely devastating that episode was for Anya. That episode still had somewhat romantic undertones. ‘I Will Remember You’ didn’t. Those “cute” moments between them meant nothing if neither of them could hold on to the memories of it.
What I can say that they did for each other was help each other to grow into stronger people than before.
But that’s not in a good way. That’s in a “well, that’s inevitable” way because pain does help us grow. But at the end of the day I don’t blame the couple or the characters. I just think Whedon loves destroying love because he understands this probably a bit too much.
He never wanted to make last and celebrate any of Buffy’s romantic/sexual relationships because he believed that growth from pain was just the stronger and more realistic story to tell. And he wasn’t wrong. It is. But thematic balance is important for a reason and I don’t think he quite knew how to keep that balance. Likely because he didn’t have that balance in himself.
Anyways, I just wanted to express this thoroughly once and for all. I’ll likely never mention it again in this depth - but to reiterate - I don’t hate Bangel but I am very much anti-Bangel because I genuinely don’t see the point in being pro for shipping them as a romantic/sexual relationship and I don’t see the appeal at all. Maybe someone could explain it to me.
@hysterical @sayyoume @oveliagirlhaditright
#buffy the vampire slayer#angel the series#anti-bangel#I will remember you#buffy summers#sarah michelle gellar#angel#david boreanaz#joss whedon
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