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roadandruingame · 2 months

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RAR Musings #11: Rebuilding A System

I engaged in a reddit thread discussing "killing your darlings" lately, where they wanted their game to be "simple and approachable", "narratively driven", and "introduce elements of mech games that enthusiasts enjoy, but to people who aren't enthusiasts."

"Killing Your Darlings" has blown up as a game design buzzphrase people use to appear more experienced and wise than they actually are. Often, it's a bid to appear better read, or "oh woe is me, who must relinquish my idea to the void. Good thing I'm above all that, professional designer that I am, that I can sacrifice my preferences and ideals for the greater good," but for a single tear rolling down the cheek, but in this case, it was a genuine argument about whether something would contribute to the final product well or not.

I don't personally define a game with equipment heat, energy costs, and random lookup tables for an assortment of weapons in a catalogue to be "simple and approachable" for non-mech enthusiasts, nor particularly necessary for a "narratively driven" game, but I'm more upset about "narrative game" getting slapped on a lot of different products that don't actually have mechanics for driving a narrative. The 'stress' mechanic that they were dropping would actually give definition to the characters of the game, if the game's narrative was about said characters, but by removing it in favor of player agency, it's just... it's just a game. Not a story.

I fought about it, and offered some alternatives. Rather than a negative mechanic that removes player agency, why not a Brave mechanic, granting extra rewards for engaging in risk? Why have all these different mech parts, why not just have Parts, if non-mech enthusiasts weren't going to care? Why not come up with mechanics that actually DO tell a narrative, rather than just relying on DND-make believe?

The more I thought about it, the more mad I got, not just at the designer, but at myself, and Road and Ruin.

I don't like the phrase, Killing Your Darlings, to begin with. It implies that your idea is so specific, so inherent to the engine you're designing for, that there's absolutely no salvaging it. A new species, that winks in and out of existence, a twinkle, before you snuff it out, never to be seen again. Why not figure out a way for it to be used! Or if it doesn't fit or overworks the product, shelve it! Use it on a different project! Don't let your dreams be memes! You're a designer, not a farmer with a lame horse!

But I had invested so much time, so much design work, and been so pleased with the elegance of Road and Ruin's core resolution mechanic, that after coming to terms with the fact that it was bulky, time-consuming, involved adding too many numbers, and ultimately wasn't actually very fun, I resisted any notion of changing it. Even later, when I DID change proficiency from affecting the minimum dice value of the d10s, into being a flat value added to the d10s, the system still involved adding anywhere from 2-5 random values between 1 and 10, and then the proficiency value besides.

So why was I so willing to tear into this objectively decent mech game, and do so much design work trying to come up with ways to simplify it, when I wasn't willing to entertain simplifying Road and Ruin for a more enjoyable experience and a wider audience?

_______________________

I woke up the other day with a sudden idea.

Road and Ruin's core skill resolution system might involve too much math hinging on too many variables, but what about the combat system?

It was another system I'd done some major work on over time, but unlike skill checks, only really involved one dice roll, and no math after. I started to think how I might actually make the combat system the core skill check system, thus unifying the game under one mechanic, and being a lot faster, and more fun besides.

The gist of it is, that when making an attack in combat, you'd roll a d4 (Piercing/Accurate), d8 (Slash/Scrape, edged contact), or d12 (Bashing/Touch, only contact is necessary), subtracting the target's armor, and +/- an amount based on who had the edge in weapon skill. A 1 or less is a miss, and above half is full damage, based on a flat value determined by the weapon's weight, minus any lacking Strength needed to swing it. Anything in between is a Glancing Blow for half damage. There's also the Special system as well, but I'll leave that for another post; the point was, I wanted combat to come away having inflicted SOME damage each attack, rather than none, but for there to be a real fear of both heavily armored units, as well as expert swordsmen.

But what if that was how skill checks worked? Currently, the system assumes an average 2d10, up to 5d10, adding (proficiency/10 x specialization/5), and looks for multiples of 10; that is, 10+ is 1 success, 20+ is 2 successes, 30+ is 3, with successes being measures of what a creature can easily, with training, and with specialization do, relative to a creature of it's size and shape. An adult human can toss paper into a can with a 1; a wolf might be able to open a latched door with a 2-3, or 25. Blessings/Curses and gear could modify this in multiple ways, such as preventing rolls below or above a certain threshold, or allowing the reroll of one or more die.

If skill checks were instead a sliding scale, using a single d10, difficulty could be calculated before the roll was even made, like the impact of 2 points of armor on an attack roll. By sliding the scale of success, even physically using a sliderule, results of (1 Fail/And, 234 Fail, 5 Fail/But, 6 Succeed/But, 789 Success, and 10 Success/And) are moved left and right, and the die is left with the final say. Specializations can reduce the threshold of Succeed/And, while greater consequences for failure move up the threshold of Fail/And.

If 10% increments are too much, (especially for disciplines where the likelyhood of crafting a masterwork item should be less than 10%), a d100 still offers a "one dice" solution, but on 1% increments. In that case, the threshold for masterwork can be "specialization x proficiencies", and anyone with even one specialization can make repeat attempts, so long as they have the time and resources, to continue chiseling away until they've finished their magnum opus, gaining +1% chance of masterwork each roll, whereas a legendary master completes such works on a 50% basis.

In terms of gear, supportive equipment can either reduce the Success/And threshold, the regular success threshold, or allow for a reroll 'save' when rolling a failure, such as in the case of climbing rope stopping a fall. But, in each case that the support is used, it suffers a level of damage, and the Fail/And threshold of the follow-up save increases. Past a certain point, using intact, but damaged rope ends up being more risky than it's worth, without it explicitly preventing use.

In the case of blessings and curses, they can allow rerolls, or just flat +1/-1 effects. What I'm really warming up to with this idea is how just about everything boils down to using the single die, but in a way that's still got a lot of tools to play with.

________________

Now some cons. I'd done a LOT of work on the earlier system, and designed lots of spells, such as the Revision magic, Lethologica, a spell that allows the reroll of any one die in proximity, both supportively or debilitatingly. This was a lot more balanced when you were rolling 2-5 dice per throw, but a single die? Massively overpowered. I'd rather not upgrade the cost of what was essentially a cantrip to a fifth-level spell, so I'm going to have to figure out how I'd get to keep it and make it work still. One solution might be forcing the use of the d100, and having Lethologica alter the result by a number of points in either direction, being used to help sway results, but not effortlessly overturn them. It allows for spell scaling, with more mana converting to a greater degree of sway, and still allows sway in either direction, helping to save near-failures and fail near-saves.

Another issue is the case of Monstrous/Mini. When I changed RAR from being a 10-scale attribute system to a 5-scale, I was bothered by how I'd account for three-story giants, pixies, and small-world scenarios. I'd developed Monstrous and Mini, x5 and /5 multipliers for stats that helped to massively scale up or down the effects of 1-5 of any given attribute. So, a creature with Monstrous Strength 3 would multiply the results of their 3d10 roll by 2. Monstrous 2 Strength 4 would get (4d10 x 3). Boss monsters could still get trash rolls (2+3+1 x 2 is just 12, doable on 2d10) but still get high effects on average. Miniscule, on the other hand, reduces the character's Size by a stage, having them struggle to pick up thimbles and defend against ants. This complete overhaul of the core skill check resolution system doesn't have "10 = 1 success" anymore, so multiplying the results doesn't really work; not that it did, because it was slow, and unfun.

A solution for this is... a lookup table. Kind of. The actual value of each of the stats, 1-5, are actually still quite valid for establishing standards. If a creature has reasonable stats to do what they're looking to do, they should roll, no problem. If their stat is lacking, they suffer a -1 for every stage they're missing, and if they exceed, +1 for every stage they're over. But for Monstrous/Mini, like... maybe it's +/- 5 in each direction? And if Fail would get pushed off the board, it stays at 1, causing a chance for failure of 10%? I mean, engaging in a mental mindclash with an illithid SHOULD be next to impossible with their Monstrous Intelligence, but just the chance that they roll a 1 is probably more fun than "you literally just can't do it".

The question here is, if players who are generating their own creatures have a solid understanding of what Monstrous/Miniscule creatures are actually DO, without getting to experience them in action first. And, since the game actually IS narrative in nature, I don't see an issue with placing impossible monsters in front of players that they're not actually supposed to defeat, really. But it feels weird to not be multiplying the outcome of dice anymore.

#indie ttrpg #road and ruin #ttrpg #ttrpg design

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mybeautifulpoland · 6 months

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Siedlimowice Palace, Poland by smalltownsglory

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nelkcats · 8 months

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Ghost Train

It was no secret that the trains in Gotham were damaged, whether it was from all the explosions that flooded the city on a daily basis or the fact that the rails were broken wasn't completely clear. At that point, what was once a train station was nothing more than an empty place used by some homeless people to sleep.

Or that's what it was supposed to be, because while the station was damaged and underneath the city, it was actually active. It just had another kind of train, a slightly more interesting one.

In Danny's defense, he was extremely bored and there was an abandoned train station he could use to play with. All it took was calling in a favor from Technus and a fully functional ghost train connected the Infinite Realms to Gotham.

The ghosts, of course, used this for fun. Fighting each other, chasing each other, celebrating, having concerts. It was a way to go to the human world without anyone causing trouble for them, not that anyone was paying attention anyway.

Or at least, no one was supposed to be paying attention, because Waylon was dumbfounded at the sight. He had escaped to the old rails when he had no other choice, his sewers were compromised and he needed a way out. He didn't expect to walk right into a party, or be offered a sandwich with a smile instead of a shout.

He could also observe a clearly glowing train and the fact that everyone there was glowing. They could be metas, or another completely new creature, but Waylon didn't care, they gave him food and he wasn't a snitch.

#dpxdc #Waylon made new friends #ghost friends #and Danny acquired a ghost train #don't blame him #He's a ghost teenager with a lot of energy to waste #and looking forward to returning to the human world #ghost train is a safe way to do it #The ghosts found some homeless humans on the road and Lunch fed them #they accidentally bought their loyalty and silence with food #dp x dc #dc x dp #Waylon doesn't know if someone followed him #he hopes not #maybe he will return to the train station #It seems like a pretty comfortable place and its inhabitants were interesting #he really hopes Gotham doesn't screw it up #or worse that the bats will find out and ruin it

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rebouks · 24 days

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Previous // Next

Ivan: If y'don't get that thing outta my face I'mma smash the fuck outta yours. Oscar: C'monnn you haven't eaten all day. Ivan: I ain't fuckin' hungry!

#ts4 #sims 4 #simblr #ts4 story #sims story #forever in between #fib #oscar finch #ivan harper #sdkjdkjs ivan's SO salty atp n oscar's just like..#A DOUGHNUT WILL FIX IT #✨🍩✨#worst road trip partner ever #well.. for some people lmao #i'd personally love to ruin my ears. sleep. eat doughnuts and vape incessantly on a road trip 🤷‍♀️#ALSO.. rebouks map lore ig?#but i like to imagine all the bay is spread out along the coast like the bay copperdale evergreen harbor and san sequoia etc #with the city n shit off to the left #n going up into the forests behind the bay like moonwood mill n granite falls etc #then up into the ridges like strangerville/chestnut ridge #n dropping down on the other side into like oasis springs #maybe del sol is kinda off that way too but more to the left #prolly doesn't make much sense without a map tho 🤔#but i'm lazy n don't like shoehorning myself into a corner with that shit cos it usually barely matters n can change with new worlds etc #NEWAY #ted talk over #✌

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americaisdead · 2 months

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sweetwater, tex. november 2023

#tag christof #america is dead #medium format #ruins #suburbia #fujifilm gfx #texas #on the road

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localguy2 · 29 days

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As a community we need to more recognise Zane's or PIXAL's potentials to drive like absolute maniacs if they or the others are late for something.

No they don't get a single ticket because they've memorised the location of every Camara on the road, or they delete the evidence.

#ninjago #zane julien #pixal borg #Sorry I don't make the rules #Zane and PIXAL will floor it down the road at mach 10 if there's only like 15 minutes left #Everyone collectively starts praying to the first master when this happens #And yes their clothes and appearances have been ruined more then once because of it

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some-zer0 · 3 months

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Okay, but I wonder what actually happened to RedCanary. Like, their last message gives off the vibe of it being written by someone other than themself, and it’s implied that their photo involved eye gore. Did they lose THEIR eyes? Did they find someone else’s eyes and just decided to be weird while posting about it? Pretty sure they’re dead, but what happened to their body? I’m probably just being paranoid about this cause it’s related to the Magnus Institute (and isn’t that ironic… EYE-RONIC-) and by extension our beloathed eye-snatching body-hopper, but I feel like there’s something I’m missing that I won’t get until the plot continues to progress…

#the magnus institute’s ruins are so haunted but like in WHAT WAY y’know?#I wonder if the ruins are going to be protocol’s hilltop road…#I hope we get to visit it at some point but someone will probably die if we do lmao #tma #tmagp #the magnus archives #the magnus protocol #I don’t think this is spoilers???#rambles #tmagp 2

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hellsgate-roadhouse · 5 months

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kippipies · 7 months

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*banging pots and pans together* it's fem!tomarry hours!

a 1800s type au where tom is a recently widowed duchess and harry is a precocious journalist

#harry potter #tomarry #tomarrymort #female harry potter #female tom riddle #hp fanart #when youre just a cranky old mrder lady and some woman down the road keeps breaking into your manor and ruining your schemes

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maireadralph · 3 months

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Entrapdak Positivity Month - Failure

I’ve always wanted to do this and now I had the chance!

Note: Dracovish is a fossil Pokemon that is clearly assembled incorrectly, can’t breathe unless it’s underwater, yet some god allows it to continue living

#hordak #entrapta #entrapdak #pokemon #crossover #the road to el dorado #sorry not sorry if I’ve ruined that entrapdak scene for you #buzzthebatgirl art #entrapdak positivity month

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dont-offend-the-bees · 2 years

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The thing about all the people* (*cishet dudes) in my actual real life who've tried to get me to read the sandman over the years is they always pushed how Cool it is. Look at these Cool concepts and Cool character designs, look how Edgy. And really they Fucked Up because if one, ONE of these people had thought to say to me "and the main guy is a pathetic loser emo drama queen who Sucks and also fucks himself over constantly" I would've been like "oh my god he's a pathetic loser emo drama queen who Sucks" and read this thing 15 years ago

#My adulthood journey of healing my inner child is mostly reclaiming good shit that the straight men in my life ruined for me #We've done fight club already and started making in roads on sandman comics and the matrix #It ain't much but it's honest work #mr. bees speaks #the sandman #Mr. Bees reads sandman

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roadandruingame · 3 months

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RaR Musings #7: Meaningful Mechanics

I saw a post this week about other people in the ttrpg design space, lamenting their years of work, and being dismissed for their project seeming like "a dnd clone". A fair concern, to be sure, but it would turn out the criticism stemmed from having a fantasy themed roleplaying game, that uses a d20 and adds proficiency, has character creation that involves classes, and spellcasting with multiple levels of spells. Others suggested there might be similarities if you use the standard stats, like STR, DEX, and INT.

So what's a guy with a fantasy themed roleplaying game that uses Xd10, adding proficiency, has a character creation engine that has classes as a minor element, and spellcasting with a mana system allowing you to cast spells at a higher level, using some basic stats, to do?

Firstly: not worry about it. Creativity is iterative, and DND has been the fantasy roleplay standard for nigh on 50 years, having affected pop culture and videogame design alike. It'd be hard NOT to have anything similar to it, and for those who have no experience outside of DND, dipping a toe outside that space can seem daring and adventurous. The writer is probably upset because they don't understand how generally meaningless their reinventing of the wheel was in terms of convincing people to play their game instead; in fact, there wasn't any mention of WHY he made the effort to design his own game in the first place. Was it distaste for existing products? Because he had vision? Or just to prove that he could do it too, a kind of intellectual parroting?

Game mechanics can't be copywritten, so while it's not illegal to copy mechanics, there needs to be certified thought put into what those mechanics are meant to achieve, and why they may fail to do so.

As an example: both d20 games and Road and Ruin involve rolling dice to generate a random value, and then adding your proficiency as a flat number.

DND falls down here because even high proficiency, like +11 or +13, barely crests over half of the value generated by random d20, much less the more regular +1 to +6. This means a specialist, someone who has lifelong expertise at their craft, can still bungle even a basic action, giving other players a chance to perform, but completely botching the class fantasy of being a specialist, and there's no coded mechanics for varying levels of success or failure to even reward being a specialist beyond increased binary success rate. Multiple overlapping proficiencies don't have cumulative value, and outside of house rules, you can't mix and match Attribute to Proficiency, such as using Strength for Intimidation. However, the system is simplistic, and easy to understand. Not having different values for different proficiencies means only having to refer to a single number as a bonus, which makes stat scaling much more predictable, and as mentioned, giving other players the limelight means the skill monkeys won't hog it.

Road and Ruin HAD a much more 'unique' skill check system; roll your attribute (1-10) as Xd10, and your proficiency (two 0-5 proficiencies combined) determined the minimum score any dice could land. Dice were adjusted, totalled, and the sum divided by 10 to find Success Rate, with scores of 1 or higher expected. This ended up being too much adjusting and adding; it produced the ideal values, but was too slow, and not very fun, especially to do repetitively. Worse, it didn't enable 'skill' to exceed 'raw talent'; you needed a high attribute for the guaranteed 'floor' that proficiency provided to matter, and I wanted those with training to potentially exceed those without training. If INT4 rolls 4d10, and Proficiency 3 meant you couldn't get below a 3 on each, for a 'floor' of 12-40, that still meant an average ~22, regardless of if you were trained or not. Specialization 'rolled' an additional 1d10, but set it aside as an automatic 10, thus improving skill checks beyond what was possible via random dice rolls, raising both floor and ceiling by 10, but not solving the issue of speed or reliability.

So now, Road and Ruin has a Roll + Proficiency system too, except you roll Xd10 (1-5), and Proficiency is two scores (0-5 each), combined, and multiplied by Specialization, with a cheat-sheet of the most common Proficiency results for your character. Adding the dice, and Proficiency, before finding successes, is still slow, but faster now, and due to the multiplication of scores and specialization, your character may even automatically succeed basic tasks, without the need for a roll at all. Such skillmonkeying requires utmost devotion though, and is far better suited to an NPC assistant; but, said NPC will still be built using the same mechanics as what goes into a character, making it easier to understand and appreciate their service.

More importantly: I like it. I understand that others might not; it doesn't have the hallmarks of DND's 'gamble' economy, getting high rolls and confetti when you hit a 20, but frankly, I'm building this game for me, not for people who are satisfied with DND. Even my nine attributes are inspired by World of Darkness, though slightly redefined to suit the needs of my setting instead, and the proficiency skill list is entirely my own, designed to offer as many cases of two overlapping skills as possible. Using any attribute in the skill check, based on what you aim to affect rather than what the proficiency is most known for (using DEX and herbalism to get plant clippings, or INT and herbalism to recall plant facts, for example) is a much more direct and diverse way to handle skill checks, rather than trying to remember whether Nature in DND is Intelligence or Wisdom, and why. Rolling multiple dice instead of 1d20 helps protect against fringe rolls, making the rare cases truly rare, as well as creating a market for spells, equipment, and abilities that affect your skill checks to have meaningful use, rather than simply adding a +1.

But I'm having fun doing all this. Road and Ruin began because I was upset with DND, and over the years, I've done a lot of work, first to intentionally distance it from DND, and only later to begin to paint it in my own colors, doing what I want, not in rebellion of what I don't. Anybody looking to design their own systems should be more preoccupied with how their mechanics feel; if people think that it's too similar to an existing product, one that you intentionally avoided? Then that's tough beans for them. They don't get to define how you have fun, and at the end of the day, that's what playing, and designing, a game is all about.

#indie ttrpg #road and ruin #ttrpg #ttrpg design

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