#reduce toxic fandom culture
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Y’all can we work on minimizing toxic fandom culture. That shit is starting piss me off.
Bitches be like:
“That’s not what happened in canon” or “canon didn’t explore that avenue of thought so your stupid for considering it”
and “that character you like sucks bc their a flawed person” or “that character deserves bad thing that happened to them bc I don’t like one specific character trait the have”
and “Regardless of context this character must be a horrible person bc they were mad at/mean to another character that one time”
And I’ll be like:
“Do I look like I give a shit??? Bitch????”
I couldn’t give less of a fuck abt your complaints bc this is literally what fandoms are for. Yes fanon can get problematic at times but it’s not a bad thing to like a “problematic” character or explore something canon doesn’t address/glosses over.
So sit your ass down you trick ass bitch, you’re not gaining anything from police ppl.
My biggest advice: Don’t like it? Don’t engage.
Move on with your damn life instead of ruining things for other ppl.
#vent post#rant#stop making others feel bad for stuff they like#Don’t like it?#Don’t engage with it then motherfucker#reduce toxic fandom culture#cw: cursing
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There is a phenomenon happening on Tumblr right now which may be a product of the Twitter exodus or maybe its just modern fandom mentality vehemently rejecting the old, but you guys have GOT to stop being so damn MEAN about fandom.
There are posts circulating on Tumblr right now hating on so many aspects of fandom. Yeah we all know the incorrect quotes format can be cringe and most of the time its the same quotes used for every fandom ever reducing the characters to stereotypes. Yes we know most fandoms scramble to ship the two basic white guys over all the other characters. Yes we know your blorbo probably Does Not Fucking Say That. Yes we know A/B/O is weird AF (especially now its breached containment and found its way into mainstream hetero erotica). Yes we know SuperWhoLock was ridiculous and attempts to make modern shows into a new SuperWhoLock have got old fast.
But do you have to constantly drag these things all the time? Why is it suddenly cool and popular to ridicule and criticise and hate on peoples fun?
Let people be cringe
Let people play in the fandom sandbox
Let people have their fun
Not everything has to be an intellectual critique and it doesn't make you a better person to constantly shit on fandom ON THE FANDOM WEBSITE
Fandoms can be problematic, toxic, and infuriating at times. But all the negativity isn't making things better. Yeah okay some aspects of fandom can be annoying, but must we have so many call out posts go viral on here specifically for hating on parts of fandom culture? Yet people wonder why fandom creators are quitting and there isnt as much art and interaction on here as there used to be.
If you see another negative post shitting on aspects of fandom cross your dash, maybe think before you reblog it. Maybe ask yourself if that post may be hurtful to a mutual? Perhaps youve got a mutual who writers A/B/O or CharacterxReader fanfiction who doesnt wanna see your reblog of the callout post stating reader×character fanfic is gross, or perhaps your mutual creates fun text posts applying quotes to their fave characters and youve just reblogged a 90k+ note post calling them cringy and overdone.
Just THINK please. Its not necessary. We've got to be KINDER to each other. Please don't let this place become like Twitter. Twitter was a toxic cesspool where no one had anything worthwhile to add to the discussion, no one created, everyone was just screaming angry rants into the void. Dont let tumblr become like that, because it will be the death of this place. And where will you go to find fanart and gifsets of your blorbos then?
#fandom#im fed up of seeing these 90k plus posts#that do nothing but shit on core elements of fandom#if you hate fandom that much just fuck off#get off tumblr#its so annoying
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Finals
Propaganda Under Cut
Sakura Haruno
Her husband is gay and her author doesn't know how to write women. So many people say she's the worst but she. DESERVES. BETTER!!! Save her from this franchise.
My baby girl my bestie my best friend. She committed the crime of um being written by kishimoto who both doesn’t know how to write women and somehow writes men in the gayest way possible specifically naruto and sasuke. Like the thing is naruto and sasuke ARE gay and also she gets so much hate for the crime of kishimoto writing her one dimensionally in love with sasuke. I know her personally she is a butch lesbian to me just trust me she’s in love with Ino and has a lesbian thing going on with Karin okay just trust me. My everything. She needs to divorce the loveless lavender marriage she’s in
What is there to say, even? The OG Threat to my 90s anime brain, the only woman I've ever hated with such a passion she made me turn away from the color pink. I used to write fics with my friend where she got left behind on purpose so our OCs could join the Naruto and Sasuke team instead. I loathed this bitch until I was 16 and realized the author simply couldnt write women and decided it was time to make peace with Sakura. It is not her fault she's vaguely written and obsessive over Sasuke. She deserves better. Sasuke and Naruto still should be together and Sakura shouldnt be with Sasuke but I no longer believe this because I hate Sakura, it is because I love her. She deserves a spouse who will actually put in the time to treat her like the hero she is.
Misa Amane
she gets treated in-canon the way fandoms treat female characters that Threaten an m/m ship. it's like, "oh why don't you go sit in the corner and be pretty, misa, while the Men have intelligent conversation and pretend they aren't ten seconds from fucking each other, doesn't that sound nice?" it's infuriating. and MAYBE it's better now but i remember her getting treated the same way in fanfiction too, like we all need to do just as badly by our female secondary characters as fucking tsugumi ohba, but with the added insult of making her be alternately oblivious of the relationship between light and L or actively trying to sabotage it—incompetently, of course, because god forbid misa be allowed dignity or moments of cleverness.
she's one of the first characters I think of when I consider old school fandom misogyny. The annoying bitch and clingy crazy gf allegations were AFTER HER ASS. She's also a lot more intelligent than people gave her credit for, but most seem inclined to take the Very Biased word of our unreliable, narcissistic narrator and his homoerotic arch nemesis and claim that just because she's bubbly and into romance that she's also a complete moron. Which is blatantly untrue. Everyone was afraid of Misa girlbossing too hard. Killing people and devoting yourself to the deranged twink of your dreams even though you know he'll never love you back??? Having a hardcore goth aesthetic and being so Hot even literal Death Gods are into you?? God forbid women do ANYTHING!
Not only is she the victim of yaoi culture, she is the victim of early 2000s misogyny by an author that wanted to introduce a girl character because he knew his male rivals were getting too homoerotic. She is a goth bimbo icon who portrays what I think is one of the few callouts for stan culture and what parasocial relationships can do to both the stan and the idol. The fact that she is a toxic fan of Kira and also hot, funny, sociable is tragic in its own way, which I think the author did try to touch on but was too misogynistic too really get through. Of course, she was reduced to villain status by the fandom and anime alike because she got in the way of the supposed romance in their psychological horror anime
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The reddit dudebros obsession with proving Sasuke is a twink or not masculine☠️
Its like they relate being masculine with morality...so ofcourse they deny sasuke his masculinity to make his objectives and themes meaningless
When objectively speaking..he comes off far more masculine than Naruto(even Itachi) and I think kishi made sure to highlight it because Sasuke IS supposed to be superior to everyone in konoha 11...thats is the core reason of naruto and sakura's(their fans as well) insecurities
Sex is used as a means of obtaining power, as the sexual act is a reflection of the sentimental relationship of the characters, they tend to put the character they consider superior in the "penetrating" position of the relationship and usually link this role with the masculine/dominant condition, while the "penetrated", that is, the one they consider the weaker of the two, is cataloged as the feminine/submissive one.
Sasuke's particular beauty is another reason, since delicacy and beauty are characteristics usually associated with the feminine; while strong and hard features are related to the masculine.
I wrote something about this topic, so I'll copy it here:
Addition: Male characters that either present culturally associated female behaviors or male characters that the fandom perceives as female-coded.
This specific point is more inclined towards, in its majority, yaoi shippers (such a fanbase mostly consists of female readers) that create and develop romantic dynamics between two or more male characters. The creation of such relationships isn’t bad or toxic per se, however, many of these fans portray these types of relationships with a heteronormative premise, in doing so, they give one of the two characters involved female-coded behaviors.
It’s interesting to note how most of the time the male characters that the fandom links to such prototypical feminine conducts are Uchiha characters (particularly Sasuke and Madara), which are both the most beautifully designed (it’s often brought up in the manga how alluring they are), and the ones canonically accused of having a “biological” condition that makes them too emotional and therefore dangerous.
It’s, again, a patriarchal and misogynistic mindset that associates females (or the characters associated with such archetypal conduct) with emotional responses due to biological conditions that they have no control of in order to diminish their merits, dismiss their ideas, downgrade their participation in government affairs and deny them of any political power.
[And let’s not forget that many of the people reproducing such beliefs also consider themselves “feminists” whose idea of activism is creating female characters that follow the patriarchal standard analyzed previously -like many Sakura fix-it fanfictions].
Furthermore, they “balance” such chaotic behavior from the female-coded characters by pairing them with “virile” characters (often using Naruto, Hashirama, and Tobirama) that are able to “control” and/or withstand the emotional responses from their partners.
It’s still a sexist mindset and conduct that gets merged with their idea of feminism, destroying the actual purpose of the movement and consequentially reproducing both the misogynistic values that downgrade and/or diminish women (and males with female-coded behaviors) and fetishize LGTB+ relationships, reducing them to a prototypical patriarchal heteronormative dynamic.
Source
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Les Mis socials : 2023 hall of shame tournament - Round 2
Rules
Links to the posts and propaganda can be found under the cut !
Propaganda :
The "Who should Marius choose ?" question - source : Twitter - January 29
For many, many years, this fandom has been arguing that neither Cosette nor Eponine could be reduced to simply being love interests for Marius, that we shouldn't call their relationship a rivalry and that the Marius x Eponine relationship was way too toxic to be defined by love. Well, the musical's social media managers seem to disagree, no to mention that the picture is made to make it seem like Eponine is the only thing keeping the two lovers apart. Featuring an uncanny use of emojis you can find in every single one of their posts.
Mother's day post - source : Twitter - March 19
The one thing to be said in favor of this post is that they actually meant it as a joke and understood that Madame Thénardier was not a good mother. On the other hand, why not simply go along with the concept of Mother's Day and post a picture of Fantine, a mother who cared deeply about her child ? But they gave us an abusive mother instead. Again, very uncanny use of the laughing emoji.
The Wimbledon one - source : Twitter - July 15
Have you ever seen a post in which everything is wrong ? well this one is for you. Starting with the words they chose because no, there should not be a Cosette for every occasion. Putting a tennis racket in the hands of a starved and abused child ? To promote rich people's sports ? They also edited her arms to make her look more muscular. Also I know nothing about english sports but there is a strawberry emoji ? And finally, cherry on top of the cake... they messed up the colors of the french flag. Which, let's be honest, is an easy one to get right.
Cosette celebrating Thanksgiving - source : Twitter - November 23
Our only contestant left for the US team ! And... it's a bad one. Without even going into what is wrong with the concept of Thanksgiving itself and promoting it, why would you ever put Cosette in front of a Thanksgiving meal ? The gril who is famous as an icon of starved and abused children ? Not to mention how disturbing it is that there is so little to eat in the pate in front of her. And finally, on a purely cultural level : 1- Thanksgiving became a federal holiday years after Les Misérables was published and 2- most french people could not care less about when Thanksgiving is celebrated.
Christmas Eve - source : Twitter - December 24
To be honest, this one might by far not be the worst they have done, but it is undeniably very disturbing. And the way the edited the "One day more" quote may be the least uncanny thing here. They also edited snowflakes in the picture, a Christmas tree on the barricade and a Christmas hat on (I think ?) Enjolras's head... knowing that the men on this barricade are throwing a revolution. In which all of them will die painfully. What's more, this revolution canonically and historically takes place at the beginning of June. Which means this picture is the worst thing they could possibly have chose to illustrate the Christmas spirit. Also, as many people have mentionned, this year was the 200th anniversary of Valjean meeting Cosette in the woods, so... perhaps they could have done something about that instead ?
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for the choose violence ask game: 8, 13, 16, 22 🔪
8. common fandom opinion that everyone is wrong about
these popular claims:
damen is a fuckboy
damen is abusive
damen is a rapist
damen is repressed
damen is toxically masculine
damen is an inherently violent or aggressive person
damen is bad at politics or leadership or ruling
damen is stupid or oblivious
damen is an unreliable narrator
damen is responsible for laurent's abuse (that's the regent's responsibility alone + the regent's goal was to get rid of auguste regardless + the regent being alive means laurent was never safe + damen isn't to blame for someone else's actions)
laurent was justified in sexually assaulting and abusing damen
erasing damen’s bisexuality
writing damen as a heterosexual straight man whose first gay relationship is with laurent
damen fell in love with laurent's abuse of him and would stay in an abusive relationship with him
flattening damen into a shitty frat boy stereotype
jokaste's misogynistic treatment in fandom in general
kastor deserving a redemption arc and downplaying his villainy
stripping damen of his friendships/relationships/love interests and giving them to laurent
saying both damen and laurent are “equally bad” lmfao
denying that damen is laurent’s moral compass
denying that there’s any sort of racial component to capri, damen/laurent, and fandom
writing auguste, the white damen, as smarter/more politically savvy/etc as opposed to dumb, clueless damen when they’re literally narrative parallels and pacat said auguste had no head for deception in the books
any variation of damen deserving to be enslaved, raped, abused, mistreated, etc because of his upbringing
there’s more, but this post would be longer than it already is
the insidious racism that pollutes the perception of damen within certain segments of the fandom is not just disheartening—it's downright appalling. despite pacat's deliberate efforts to break stereotypes and provide representation for marginalized communities, some fans have unfortunately chosen to use damen to spread toxic narratives.
damen, a character painstakingly crafted to embody nobility and heroism, becomes the unfortunate canvas upon which fans project their most harmful interpretations. the laundry list of misconceptions—ranging from baseless accusations of being stupid to downright deplorable insinuations of him being a rapist or abusive—is not just a disservice to the character but a damning indictment of the fans themselves. let's unpack this, shall we?
the distinction between real slavery and the eroticized fantasy of slavery within the story is crucial here. pacat emphasizes that the slave system in akielos is designed to be a consensual and safe space for erotic exploration, with slaves chosen for their pre-existing submissive tendencies and masters culturally bound to treat them well.
to conflate damen's interactions with slaves within this fictional context with real-world acts of rape is not only a misreading of the text but a failure to acknowledge the author's explicit intentions. pacat's words serve as a clear reminder that the portrayal of slavery in capri is a deliberate narrative choice aimed at creating a specific kind of fictional world of erotic escapism—one that should not be equated with real-life atrocities.
this goes hand in hand with the false fandom assertion that damen is toxically masculine. not only does it have no basis in the books, it directly undermines pacat's intent in crafting damen as a positive representation within his community. it contradicts the very essence of damen's character and pacat's creative vision to reduce him to a blatantly racist caricature. damen embodies healthy masculinity through his consistent demonstration of respect for laurent's boundaries, his promotion of healthy attitudes towards sex, his superior emotional regulation compared to laurent, and his unwavering sense of duty and care for others.
and then there's the erasure of damen's bisexuality, an egregious offense that not only disregards the author's intent but perpetuates harmful stereotypes about sexuality. the idea that laurent is somehow damen's "first real gay partner" is not just absurd—it's offensive.
and let's not forget the vile suggestion that damen is somehow complicit in his own abuse, and more, that he's deserving of any of it. damen, like any character, deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, regardless of the circumstances he finds himself in. to suggest that he somehow deserves the abuse he endures is a deeply disturbing reflection of victim-blaming attitudes within the fandom. likewise, claiming laurent was justified in sexually assaulting and abusing damen is outrageous. regardless of what someone has suffered in the past, it can never justify inflicting harm on another person. no amount of personal trauma or past experiences can excuse or rationalize abusive behavior towards others. each individual is responsible for their own actions, and it's essential to hold perpetrators accountable for any harm they cause, regardless of their own history of suffering.
but perhaps what's most alarming is the racial undercurrent that permeates these toxic interpretations. damen, a character meant to challenge stereotypes and offer positive representation, becomes a lightning rod for the most insidious forms of racism within the fandom. the visceral hatred and violence directed towards him—expressed in disturbing fantasies of his downfall (manifesting in popular blogs and posts salivating about wanting damen to be killed violently, humiliated, abused, cheated on, “humbled”, abandoned by everyone he knows and loves, etc)—are not just indicative of a few bad apples but a systemic issue that must be addressed. while damen is subjected to victim-blaming, erasure of his agency, and other forms of mistreatment, laurent often escapes similar scrutiny in fandom. this differential treatment is evidence of the covert nature of racial biases within the fandom, where characters of color like damen face heightened scrutiny and unfair treatment compared to their white counterparts.
in the end, how fans choose to perceive damen speaks volumes about their own biases and prejudices. it's time for fans to embrace the nuances that make damen the well-rounded character he is without reducing him to a harmful stereotype. anything less is an affront to the spirit of the series and a disgrace to the fandom as a whole.
13. worst blorbofication
kastor, and laurent to a degree.
kastor, despite being depicted as a ruthless villain within the narrative on par with the regent, is often portrayed as a misunderstood and sympathetic figure by fans. this portrayal conveniently overlooks his heinous actions, including the cold-blooded murder of his own father and attempted murder of his child brother, in his pursuit of power. despite lacking depth and complexity compared to other characters, kastor is inexplicably given a pass by some fans who sympathize with his imaginary mistreatment, usually stemming from a place of disliking damen.
laurent, on the other hand, is elevated to almost mythical proportions within the fandom. any attempt to critique or point out his flaws is met with vehement backlash and even cancellation by some fans. this idolization of laurent, while understandable to a certain extent due to his complex character arc, becomes problematic when it blinds fans to his faults and shortcomings.
16. you can't understand why so many people like this thing (characterization, trope, headcanon, etc)
all of the above.
17. there should be more of this type of fic/art
i don't have a particular preference, and i've distanced myself from fandom due to the reasons mentioned earlier. fandom hasn't felt like a safe or inclusive space, particularly for people of color, minorities, and those who don't unquestionably idolize laurent or who simply appreciate damen to some degree. therefore, i find it difficult to form an opinion on fan-created content, especially as it's created to cater to one specific type of fan.
22. your favorite part of canon that everyone else ignores
my favorite part of canon that often gets overlooked is how damen breaks out of traditional masculine norms. despite his stature as a big, muscular warrior, damen embodies emotional depth, tenderness, and vulnerability, qualities that defy societal expectations of masculinity. his capacity for love and forgiveness, especially towards laurent, showcases his emotional intelligence and strength. damen's portrayal is a beautiful reminder that masculinity is not defined solely by physical prowess, but also by emotional depth and compassion.
it's disheartening to see how damen's fanon portrayal often strays from this wonderful characterization. instead of embracing his kind-hearted nature, he's reduced to a toxically masculine alpha who is repressed, dumb as bricks and devoid of emotional intelligence. this shallow interpretation does a disservice to damen's character, removing all depth and reducing him to a mere accessory to laurent.
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So there was a take on Tumblr that went something along the lines of
"BG3 would be nothing without Astarion, Neil makes this game."
Let me just talk about fucking trash takes like this that no one, including Neil, asked for.
This is, IMO, a great example of the parasocialism that plagues too many of the chronically online, and particularly those who are younger in Fandoms who grew up tethered to their phones and thinking being a Stan means you have to shit on everything that isn't what you Stan because you think that is how you show devotion to someone who doesn't even know you exist. I know it's probably hard to think about things in a grander scheme, putting these things out on the internet achieves absolutely nothing, for no one. It doesn't make you a true fan of Astarion and Neil. It does make you someone who seems like you could use a healthier attachment to both of them where you don't need to diminish other things to elevate them.
Additionally, this is how you get other BG3 fans to go from being lukewarm on Astarion or even somewhat fond of Astarion, to hating that character. And it paints Astarion fans horribly when you act this way. So, again who do you think you're helping with these AWFUL takes?
And speaking of that awful take -- incorrect. BG 3 is GOTY because of the collective. It goes beyond any one actor. It goes beyond any one character. It is a masterpiece of a game IN ITS ENTIRETY. GOT IT? It is absolutely fucked up that you reduced the impact this game has as a cultural phenomenon, and as a game that had shaken the status quo of the industry, to a single character just so you could feel like your favorite comes off just a little "above" the rest. Stop it. Stop it right now.
And I have said it before-- multiple actors in this game including the incredible narrator could justifiably get nominated for awards. Sam? There isn't a scene in the game that beats the Gortash scene. I will die on that hill. That said, that is one of many outstanding performances, but I am hard pressed to think of any performances that weren't great. They all. Deserve. Praise.
Anyway, back to my regularly scheduled fangirling over BG3. I hope some of you seriously get a grip on yourselves and leave those awful takes out of the community. It is so toxic and so unwelcome.
#I would say touch grass but I genuinely would prefer people just reflect and do better#please evaluate why you need to be that awkwardly combative when nobody asked#I may tag this for bigger reach but for now just let this marinate on my Tumblr#it is ok to be a superfan but please don't make it abrasive and weird#you will make a lot of us hate the thing you love and that is not your goal I feel like
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Things I think about continually-
The fact that rent and falsettos are both Queer operas about how Aids/Hiv destroys lives, but one of these shows irritates me because of its stereotypical and toxic depiction of queer people/Queer relationships and the other is my favorite show of all time because of its amazing metaphors and (what I personally believe) more realistic depictions of queer people. Aforementioned second show has toxic people/relationships in it as well but they are look at and explored instead of brushed off and excused like in first show.
Marvin’s Rainbow shorts
The symbolism of the gray block in Falsettos
Jason is the main character of Falsettos
Whenever people are given a deep piece of media that have any main characters of diversity in it people have a tendency to dumb them down for the laughs instead of looking deeper into the metaphors.
Maladaptive daydreaming
Falsettos 7 deadly sins comparisons
The difference between Gluttony, Greed, and Envy
I have found very few pieces of queer media that don’t make the queer main characters the worst people you’ve ever met, stereotypically gay, promiscuous, or as shallowly developed as a plate filled with water
Linguistics
Bald Christian Borle
In trousers
Hozier
Different cultural knives
How in media with cannon WLW relationships most of the them get completely overlooked because everyone is focused on the fandom MLM relationship
The fact that I will probably never be able to own a home because of how high the cost of living
I will most likely never make enough money to have a completely stress free life
Telling my mother my chosen name and her reducing it down to a simple nickname and never calling me by it
How my family will react when I inevitably change my legal name
my cats
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Calling comments pointing out racism in fandom “toxic” really isn’t it my friend. You are not escaping the white fans not giving a shit about anyone except themselves allegations
Alright I am going to take the chance that this is sent to me genuinely and that you are not a troll T-ing up a harassment campaign because I think I know the fic in question here and actually, unsolicited comments from strangers pointing out racism in fandom can be toxic to the cause of reducing racism - there is a lot to unpack here. I have a lot of thoughts on this from the perspective of a writer and at the risk of inviting a lot of trolls onto myself I am going to list those thoughts out here, for all the good they probably won't do:
First a few thoughts on this subject generally, and then specifics about the situation of the specific fic you reference:
1. Unsolicited Concrit in the AO3 and Tumblr environment - no matter what it is about - is not helpful.
Writers dont know the experience, context, or intention of the concrit giver. So writers are just frankly disinclined to trust it. Too many trolls and too many bad experiences mean a writer doing fanfic with limited time and for fun doesnt care to receive this in their comments. If they do want to improve their writing they are going to seek out a good fandom / writing community and then after that look for a trustworthy beta.
2. This unfortunately goes doubly so for accusations of homophobia, sexism, racism, transphobia, ablism, etc.
Too many bad actors and trolls use these kinds of painful accusations for nefarious purposes. This goes doubly so for kink fics and smut fics - trolls use these accusations with the primary intention of harassing writers into taking down fics they find to be "depraved" - aka too sex-positive. Kink and smut writers especially will only see your unsolicitied accusations of anything, im sorry that includes racism, as trolling harassment.
3. White writers who write racist portrayals of POC characters are, by and large, not racists themselves.
More than likely theyre unaware, undereducated, and come from a cultural context where what is obvious to you is not actually obvious to them. (A white american is more likely to be aware of stereotypes around native american and african american characters, for example, than a white european or australian). This does not mean that you have to tolerate this. You, the reader, can block and mute writers who write characters in ways you find harmful. Muting on AO3 has made my reading life 100x better.
If you're going to take the time to point out racism to a writer and see if they will improve their portrayal of race: you need to approach them privately. If you want them to trust you, you cannot use anon. If you must be on anon then you need to at least link them to trustworthy resources if you have them. Or at the very least be specific about what in the fic garners this accusation - because it might be something the writer can fix!
4. In my experience, with some exceptions, writers are open to discussing ways they can improve their racial sensitivity: but it needs to be presented as something actionable.
There need to be specifics regarding issues and examples. The Writing With Color Tumblr is excellent for this reason. Concrit about something as substantive as improving protrayal of race also needs to be respectful of the effort a writer puts forth to write stories. Because improving this might require a complete overhaul of the fic. Writers who hear these concerns from a respectul, trustworthy source are more inclined to actually improve how they write race. They will seek out a sensitivity beta or take your resources with the good faith intended. It of course is not POCs job to educate white writers - but if youre going to say something anyway and you want to do more than cause hurt - this is how you do that. With respect, under the assumption that this writer cares about the characters as much as you do.
Now regarding the fic in question: this was a new J/C writer, writing a kink fic. It was setting up, very excitingly for kink lovers, a well researched and nuanced portrayal of hardcore D/s kink. and the D/s as a lens through which to also explore some flipping of traditional gender roles. I'm not going to link to the fic because the writer doesn't deserve more harassment. But this is what they said about the content of the comments: (tw: for mention of suicide)
I am going to trust the writer that rather than educate or motivate her to write better POC characters, she just stopped writing the kink fic. And my comments were only intended to inform her that this trolling was very likely not genuine, nor the culture of most trek fandom in my experience. To me the comments and the escalation described here do not sound like a genuine outreach on race or homophobia. They, in fact, sound like the kind of classic trolling committed by right wing and russian troll farm style internet harassers. Bad actors who want to keep kink and sex out of fandom. My troll alert starts to go off especially when I hear that this writer is being harassed on multiple fronts over this fic. And that is what this is: internet harassment. Racism, homophobia, and other hurtful criticism used to push a writer off the internet. Whether the original commentor intended to raise awareness or not, they're doing it with all the tactics of classic bad actors.
There are actual ways to get racism out of fandom without bullying writers whose background and racial sensitivity you don't know.
Create or share rec lists of writers who write sensitive portrayals of race. Emphasize what these fics do well.
You can even create and share lists of fics to avoid on race - its helpful then to know what the issues are if you have the bandwidth: just for the love of god don't do it in the authors comments. and make sure to ask readers of your list not to harass the writers - bc thats not going to help anybody write race better. Too many bad actors use these accusations for other purposes. I am sorry, but no writer is going to assume you're being genuine.
Promote resources within fandom communities about how to write race well. Or that point out known issues surrounding the character. This helps writers and beta readers to look out for these things. As someone who does try to be sensitive to race - I look for these. I read them. I try to write a better Chakotay, for example, than the canon one we got in Voyager, who was written based on advice from a fake native american consultant (all Voyager fic writers are starting from a disadvantage on the racial sensitivity front bc our canon content sucks on race. It's either absent or presented terribly in canon.) By and large Voyager writers know that and if we understand how, we do make a good faith effort to write the shows non-white characters better than our 1990s source material does. Writers who don't understand how to improve just try to avoid race in their fics as much as possible - which is whitewashing and just as harmful to the cause of improving how race is treated in fandom. Comments from strangers on the internet are not where writers turn to find our trustworthy sources on race or any other culturally sensitive issue, which brings me back to my first point.
If you dont have the bandwidth to do any of the above - just block / mute the writer. Let someone else be their educator.
#these are just my thoughts as a white writer who has done the internal debate of “should i only write white characters”#and come out on the side of “i should be aware of race as much as possible in my work but it shouldnt prevent me from writing POC”#if i dont try then i dont improve#tw: racism#tw: mention of suicide
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people act like these weird and dumb anti-fan/anti-ship/puriteen/etc kids are some kind of aberration, but let's be honest, they're just the latest incarnation of a general consumeristic anti-intellectualism that's long been latent in fan culture
as someone who's had an on-again off-again love-hate relationship with fan culture since being a young teenager in the very early 00s, I can tell you that the same immature logic that these kids use to justify why they believe what they believe has been at the center of pretty much every dumb fan argument I've ever seen for over two decades - which is that when you strip away all the hollow moralizing and holier-than-thou grandstanding, it's always the same childish desire to make all art about and pander to oneself.
the problem isn't "kids these days," the problem is that for generations there's been a long-standing intellectual and artistic rot at the heart of fan culture. This rot stems from the fact of fostering a consumeristic relationship towards art that really could only exist in a market-dependent social system like capitalism, in which your social and interior selves are seen as expressed in and informed by what you buy with your time and money. Art is not engaged as something with which you enter into a dialogue, it is seen as a prosthesis of your own ego and wants. Therefore, it becomes seen as obligated to fit you perfectly, it has to be a narcissistic mirror, has to didactically preach to a choir of one (you). Art becomes another way to fill a void that it by definition as a manufactured simulacrum can't. Your taste in art is reduced to a series of lifestyle/fashion statements that seal you inside an electronic bubble where little that bruises your ego is allowed in without you expressly looking for it.
At its most toxic, this rot ends up dovetailing with a broader epidemic of social atomization and loneliness that pervades modern capitalist societies, and has political consequences - look at the far-right radicalization of incels within video game and anime fandoms over the pettiest "anti-woke" reasons possible.
can there be a "good" fan culture that fosters a healthy relationship with art? I don't know. Maybe yes, or maybe the fact of being a fan is itself compromising. time will tell
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It's pretty wild how neoliberalism, particularly social media discourse and thinkpiece journalism, has turned a valuable concept like toxic masculinity into yet another racist gender binary.
Take, for example, Ted Lasso.
As a cultural norm, toxic masculinity does not always require top-down enforcement through physical violence. It's not just the guys at the top of the hierarchy who are beating toxic masculinity into people. People throughout the social hierarchy keep toxic masculinity going through subtler means, like language and organizational structure.
The Ted Lasso fandom (and many journalists covering the show) have simplified this to "toxic masculinity is when lower-status men say mean things."
And because toxic masculinity has become a binary, this means that the only "bad" masculinity resides in mean-saying, lower-status men.
Everyone else is exhibiting "good" masculinity. Even when they're enacting physical violence and call other men bitches.
At the end of the day, what this does is stigmatize characters who are less traditionally masculine--as defined by white norms. And, crucially, it grants a free pass to characters who fulfill the ideals of traditional white masculinity.
And that's how we get this bizarro world where men of color, particularly Nathan and Sam, are hyper-scrutinized for using their words and expressing their emotional needs. And where white characters like Beard and Roy are beloved for bottling up their feelings and threatening/using physical violence.
Roy headbutted Jamie so he could hug him after. If that's not toxic masculinity, I don't know what is. But the fandom doesn't have time to unpack that. It's too busy arguing that Nathan calling Colin a motel painting is somehow worse than Colin physically attacking Nathan everyday for god knows how long.
I'm not trying to reverse the binary here, making Nathan good and Roy toxic. The problem is that we are thinking about masculinity as a good/toxic binary. People--including fictional characters--relate to masculinity in ways that are far more complex than merely good or toxic. We lose so much when we reduce masculinity to just another binary.
Also, the good/toxic binary--like binaries in general--is a tool of white supremacy. So maybe let's knock that shit off.
#ted lasso#meta#toxic masculinity#thank you mutuals for tolerating another ted lasso post#how does this binary manifest in fandoms you actually care about?
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Round 3
Propaganda Under Cut
Kairi
kairi is the third protagonist of the kingdom hearts series and the third member of the destiny trio, alongside fan favorites sora and riku. sora/riku shippers HATE kairi, and will go out of their way to discount her at every turn. the hate for her ranges from typical "she's a boring bitch" to fans of soriku making five-hour long video essays reassuring their fellow shippers that the big bad kairi won't show up in the next installment – to quote one video, "she's in a box. she's on the shelf. four walls, no door." kairi is the greatest bogeyman the soriku fandom has ever known, to the point where most of said video essays and fanon meta posts focus not on why sora and riku should get together, but rather on why they don't like kairi.
Literally has a 100+ page Google doc fan theory writing her out of the narrative and putting all of her (few) canonical accomplishments onto half of the popular m/m ship (soriku). Don't even get me started on how her memory was completely written out of the canon plot of re:coded. KH is a nightmare to explain so dude trust me she is THE victim of yaoi
She is so fundamental to the plot and themes and narratives of game and yet it is near impossible to find anything about her thats not ship bashing pre-mlm with the other two characters. I dont even care if she ends up with one of the main characters i just want fans to see her as a cool character to love or like, anything other than “annoying comphet girl.” You can write your mlm but pleaae stop inventing comphet where it doesnt exist. She does not even get to spend time with sora ever?? Why does everyone see her as a threat and a thing to destroy?? Let her have friends so help me
Misa Amane
she gets treated in-canon the way fandoms treat female characters that Threaten an m/m ship. it's like, "oh why don't you go sit in the corner and be pretty, misa, while the Men have intelligent conversation and pretend they aren't ten seconds from fucking each other, doesn't that sound nice?" it's infuriating. and MAYBE it's better now but i remember her getting treated the same way in fanfiction too, like we all need to do just as badly by our female secondary characters as fucking tsugumi ohba, but with the added insult of making her be alternately oblivious of the relationship between light and L or actively trying to sabotage it—incompetently, of course, because god forbid misa be allowed dignity or moments of cleverness.
she's one of the first characters I think of when I consider old school fandom misogyny. The annoying bitch and clingy crazy gf allegations were AFTER HER ASS. She's also a lot more intelligent than people gave her credit for, but most seem inclined to take the Very Biased word of our unreliable, narcissistic narrator and his homoerotic arch nemesis and claim that just because she's bubbly and into romance that she's also a complete moron. Which is blatantly untrue. Everyone was afraid of Misa girlbossing too hard. Killing people and devoting yourself to the deranged twink of your dreams even though you know he'll never love you back??? Having a hardcore goth aesthetic and being so Hot even literal Death Gods are into you?? God forbid women do ANYTHING!
Not only is she the victim of yaoi culture, she is the victim of early 2000s misogyny by an author that wanted to introduce a girl character because he knew his male rivals were getting too homoerotic. She is a goth bimbo icon who portrays what I think is one of the few callouts for stan culture and what parasocial relationships can do to both the stan and the idol. The fact that she is a toxic fan of Kira and also hot, funny, sociable is tragic in its own way, which I think the author did try to touch on but was too misogynistic too really get through. Of course, she was reduced to villain status by the fandom and anime alike because she got in the way of the supposed romance in their psychological horror anime.
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meeyow!!! hello there, I'm Tonix, this is my secondary account lol. I'm mainly an artist, but I may write some headcanons from time to time.
I'm gonna post my lazier stuff, more explicit stuff, & thoughts here so look out for that
fandoms:
- Transformers 👾🚓
- Hazbin Hotel 🌹👁️🗨️
- Portal/Half-Life 🧡💙
- The Stanley Parable 〽️🪣
- ULTRAKILL 🩸🪽
- Ace Attorney ⚖️✒️
- Wolvesville 🐺🏘️
(this list will get updated as time goes on)
stuff I do :
- digital & traditional art
- animation sometimes
- OCs
- roleplay
- sometimes little headcanons and stuff???
- idk there's not much else, if you're a mutual ask for art if you want, usually just gonna be sketches
- I do commissions so if you ever want one of those yeah, reduced price for friends/mutuals
content warnings, DNI, and blog rules below, please read. (separate rules for headcanons/writing requests are here)
CWs:
- bugs, either talked about or posted about, I love bugs (probably won't TW this past here so, heed my warning)
- violence, guns/knives, potential talk of cannibalism, occasional dark jokes/comedic violence, etc. (text stuff might not be tagged, but gore art will most likely be tagged as #gore art, #robogore and/or #gore)
- possible mention of drugs; all will be censored, won't go into anything crazy
- bright colors/very saturated art (will be tagged & probably put under a cut. block #bright colors and #neon if you don't want to see any of this)
- maybe some NSFT lol (will tag either #suggestive or #nsft)
- I may ramble and get annoying
DNI:
- under 18, sorry pals. feel free to interact on my main account tho!
- super religious blogs (excluding fandoms obv)
- on that same note, super political blogs
- anyone toxic or looking to start drama
- not really a DNI, but I'm aromantic, keep that in mind while talking to me and don't push your luck
- AI art users
- proshippers
- "don't support X creator"/"did you know that X said Y about Z" fellas, again, no unnecessary drama here please
blog rules:
- don't repost my art anywhere else, even with credit given. ask me directly before using as a PFP/banner/etc., but using as wallpaper is fine so long as you don't share it. (note: sharing a link to one of my posts somewhere is absolutely fine)
- do not use my art for your own OCs; inspiration is totally fine but if you're just snagging my stuff just... no, man, no
- generally don't request art unless you're a mutual, but if you're really polite about it or give an idea that I really like I may draw you something
- asks may be deleted without warning and without telling you. if you did something that upset me I'll try to reach out and tell you the first few times, but past that you're blocked, yada yada yada.
and lastly, this is totally gonna be a repeat, but here's my biggest rule of all: absolutely no drama here. be dramatic about anonymous people all you want, but no-one you could identify by looking them up. this is also not your place to complain/nitpick about something that someone else on here (namely I) might like.
cancel culture is a huge no-no here. people are people; people make mistakes and have shitty opinions. unless they were convicted of a crime, I don't wanna hear about whose content I should/shouldn't enjoy.
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i don’t know, i feel like you want louis to become a mainstream average pop star instead of something that’s authentic and actually interesting. there’s plenty of women who adore rock/punk/alternative/metal/etc music, not only “macho” men. he clearly loves rock. also, the rich history of these genres and politics is incredible. so very interesting and oftentimes beautiful.
following his true sound instead of conforming and fitting into the perfect pop star image will always be better. tiktok is a cesspool and many artists have spoken out about how they’re forced to post snippets of their songs there or they’re threatened with not releasing them.
also something very important, there is plenty of history of the overlap between street wear, chavs and the queer community in northern england, where he is from. as someone who expresses their queerness in that same way, i find it very ignorant to imply that street wear = toxic masculinity.
art shouldn’t be reduced to commerciality and capitalism. art is so beyond that. as a fan, i want him to do something that’s true to himself, not yet another soulless mainstream album
as for getting rid of the grays… i rather see someone who’s not afraid of showing a real image of who they are instead of fitting in whatever beauty standards society has. people grow, people get gray hairs at young ages sometimes. i certainly don’t want him to feel ashamed of his beautiful gray hairs
i don’t know, this whole changing himself to fit in with the mainstream music industry seems unnecessary. i’d actually stop being a fan if he did, because what made me a fan is how his art is authentic and he actually does what he wants to do music wise, not what the industry labels popular
Hi, anon!
I've talked about this subject before. I think you need to take yourself out of the equation. Take me out too. It's not about what i want or what you want. It's about what i believe needs to happen in order to keep and grow his fanbase. Neither of us is fitting the target group he should be catering to. It's his current core fanbase and those 37 mill followers (potential fans) that needs to find him interesting, attractive and inspirational to buy his album and buy tickets to his show.
I've said before that i don't think L can afford to do what he wants and what he's passionate about. He's not in a position to. His label and touring company demands a certain amount of albums and concert tickets sold to make up for the investment and costs. He's got targets he needs to hit. The investors want profit. For continued investment they also need to see progress (more albums sold then the previous album, more tickets sold than the last tour etc.)
I think Louis' career is stagnating or on it's way over the hill. Afhf didn’t sell as well as previous year, his monthly listeners are declining, he had to cancel Asia because of bad sales and downgrade a venue because of low sales. Engagement in his fandom is low as well. Bg, yelling at fans, cancelling and downgrading shows, lack of professionalism and childish behaviour isn't doing him any favours.
So again, i don't think he can afford to do what he wants and likes. Fans aren’t responding to it well and he's got to do something to get himself back in fans favour. Where you see him wearing street wear and associates it with queer culture in Northern England, the gp sees an artist who wears wrinkled ill-fitting trackpants every show. Where you see grey hair and is proud of him for being himself, the gp sees a premature grey-haired older than his years artist. None of this is working in his favour.
So while i would love for him to be himself, authentic and explore niche genres and subcultures, that's not what his target group and most of the gp likes and wants. So i think he needs to compromise. Give the target group some of what they want, while testing the borders of how far he can push it towards what he wants. I think he's on his way to go a bit overboard. He's got an image problem among non-fans and some of it he can't do anything about. What he's currently doing now clearly isn't working like intended. There are things he can do to maintain and grow his fanbase. Some of it is fairly simple stuff. He must be willing to change in order to do so, and i'm not sure he is.
#his art is also far from authentic just saying#it's still a compromise and some of it is very exaggerated#anytime louis or louies uses the words authentic about him i cringe#he's got the most constructed and fake image and persona i've ever seen#louis image#solo louis#free advice
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do you think there's anything to be implied about the quality of rwby's writing and framing in light of how much of the audience misinterprets salem/oz and the role of the gods? i see so many people reading the lost fable as a straightforward condemnation of salem and ozma as a pretty basic tragic hero that it makes me nervous about the future of the show and that IM reading too much into things when i see more nuance in salem. are that many people really that shallow when engaging with rwby? idk
nah people are—well tbh i think what it comes down to mainly is that fandom is not really centered around critical analysis, it’s centered on transformative engagement, and while these are by no means mutually exclusive endeavors they are in fact. Different. analytical vs transformative approaches to the text are different endeavors with different goals requiring different skillsets and can but do not inherently overlap. frankly in fandom spaces i think real textual analysis is not just ancillary but actively discouraged; nobody is quicker to respond to analytical discussions with “it’s not that deep” than a fan who doesn’t like the discussion and there is a noticeable tendency in fandom spaces for any analysis that isn’t 100% ebullient to be read as negativity or critical—e.g. note the frequency with which my reading of ozma is interpreted as character bashing—which isn’t to say that fandoms do not engage analytically at all, but in broad terms there is something of an unspoken… chilliness toward textual analysis in fandom culture. and i am saying this from the perspective of having written a lot of textual analysis and a lot of fanfiction across different fandoms; there is A Pattern. you write a detailed analytical breakdown of your reading of a character and see people tagging it fandom negativity while gushing about the detailed character study you wrote based on that same reading enough times and you start to pick up on the fact that maybe fandoms are not really built for analytical engagement. there is also the whole thing where fandom has an entire category of headcanon predicated on “this thing happened in the text but i don’t like it so no it didn’t” and a second entire category predicated on “this has no basis and is possibly out of character but i like it so happened actually” lmao [TO BE CLEAR THIS IS NOT A VALUE JUDGMENT I HAVE NONSENSE HEADCANONS ALSO ITS FINE.]
anyway this is all fine but! because fandoms devote the bulk of their collective energy into pouring out vast endless streams of like, fanfic and fanart and headcanon and “ship dynamics” [i still do not quite understand what these are] and incorrect quote mills and so forth you tend to get a sort of collective flattening of the text. there is a tendency for characters to be stripped down and reduced to small easily-manageable sets of tropes derived more from aesthetics and first impressions and for any moral complexity to be boiled down to simple black and white and for unique worldbuilding to be smudged a bit until it resembles its nearest recognizable trope. there is a sort of creative entropy. a smooth surface is easier to write on. also sometimes fans do not Obsessively Rewatch The Show four times in the space of a year and over time details get memetically blurred and this, obviously, is detrimental to the overall fidelity-to-canon of popular fanon.
and then like the thing to remember about rwby is it’s a very detail-oriented story, and one that respects its audience. the one downside of that storytelling approach is that fandom is uniquely ill-equipped for it (think about how many people Completely Missed that ironwood was on the express train to fascism land in V4-5 even though. the narrative made it like. hilariously obvious)
In Summary i lived through the fandom where the protagonist after two years of increasingly toxic behavior towards her bestie, charbroiled her friend’s arm into a shriveled blackened husk and not only did not apologize but had a whole episode about being mad at the friend for being upset and then 95% of the fandom was shocked when the friend went “fuck you” and stole the magical artifact whose power was involved in the charbroiling incident all of four episodes later; and almost two years later half the remaining is still Discoursing about how the friend “didn’t have a reason” for betraying the protagonist. tts was a show written with small children in mind. i have witnessed Actual Forty Year Olds insisting that this character’s betrayal was petty and childish. rwby is a lot more tightly-written and nuanced and not a disney princess cartoon and while it does benefit from its fandom not being mostly Disney People the fandom is still. A Fandom. doing what fandoms… do.
#i really cannot emphasize enough that the salem nonsense is not ANYWHERE EVEN CLOSE TO the level of the cassandra tts nonsense#like every single episode that is About Cassandra is about rapunzel being an egregiously bad friend#(cause tts went ‘this girl grew up abused in a tower and has negative social skills’ god bless)#and the charbroiling happens because rapunzel uses a Known Dangerous Uncontrollable spell that cass begs her not to use#goes into a trance repeating it and cass grabs her to snap her out of it#and then like two episodes later is like i’m mad at you bc i had it under control and you wouldn’t have gotten hurt if you listened to me#and people are still like ‘how dare this petty egotistical selfish bitch be angry at rapunzel’ lmfao#like at least with salem she’s The Villain yk#not the deuteragonist who gets two seasons of being relentlessly mistreated by her friends and permanently disabled before finally snapping#anyway yeah as a Collective fandoms don’t engage beyond the level of like grade school analysis you get on TVTropes#i.e recognition of common tropes and genre conventions#the rwby fandom is honestly ahead of the curve for having a widespread grasp of what deconstruction is#but it’s still not. great#ironwood is the measuring stick to use here
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I’m the anon that compared Larry+Taekook+Charmie shippers. You explained everything I was thinking so clearly and spot on! What you said is exactly how I think these shippers view women and Jimin alongside their ship. Especially the breakdown you provided on the feminization of Jimin vs the instances where they allow his masculinity to be validated. I don’t have the writing skills to organize my thoughts on this subject and lay it out clearly in a post like you have done so thanks for that haha.
Thanks! I also appreciate your ask, it opened the door to that examination.
The talks surrounding Jimin and gender identity are so complex though. Because I may have only looked at it from a specific shipper perspective (that of taekookers), but it's so much more than that. I think every single subsection of this fandom has its own view towards Jimin and sometimes it overlaps, other times it doesn't. It depends who is starting the conversation, from solo stans, ot7s, different categories of shippers and so on. It's like there is a Jimin for everyone, much more than other members of the group.
I do think there is a fascination for him, but to only see it from that perspective is to reduce the complexity of the conversation. The fans' views reveal their own understanding of gender and especially a misunderstanding towards masculinity and how gender expression is not static, but active, something that is constantly performed.
I'm not saying everyone does it because there are smart people in this fandom, but more often than not, they think of gender (and Jimin) through the perspective of physical appearance, body and how that body can be transformed (makeup, clothes). They call it soft masculinity because of the way he looks, because he can wear "feminine" clothes, or the makeup is more accentuated, or that he is more androgynous due to his facial features. And they oppose that to toxic masculinity. And that equation is incredibly reductive. Masculinity is also a set of behaviors and values which in broad terms are normative and part of hegemonic masculinity. A set of rules that men must follow, sometimes unconsciously.
So, looking at gender just through this exterior veil misses the bigger picture. A man can wear feminine clothing and still exhibit signs of toxic masculinity through his behavior for example. Bur cultural differences have to be taken into consideration as well. If we were to look at the idols in the k-pop industry, who all wear makeup and accesories and play with the color of their hair and call it soft masculinity, then we would be lead to believe that the industry is a utopia that finally got the answer to the acceptable type of masculinity. Which is so far from reality.
In Jimin's case, in the fandom there is always this battle between fans in terms of trying to push an agenda towards his gender expression. The ones who feminize him to the point of seeing him as a woman (usually in a negative light, or when he is part of a ship, so his behavior and physical appearance must match the woman role in that ship), or those who, in retailiation, are focusing on the display of masculinity. Which is so many times understood in his case when he "manspreads" or looks a bit more serious, or talks with a Busan accent. It's always about the way he presents his masculinity or at least how those fans project their understanding of masculinity.
And that's where the problem lies. Because they think gender is static or that masculinity and femininity must always be seen as specific set of rules, it pushes them to double down on the characteristics. I'm not sure if this term applies here or if this actually happens with the way they see Jimin, but it's almost like they create the drag version of him. In the sense that he ends up being seen through an exaggerated version of masculinity and femininity. And as much as Jimin becomes this object/subject of fascination, it also reveals the fan's personal views on gender. Which mostly happens when they look at Jimin (sometimes with JK as well, but there it's more reduced, always the struggle between macho man/dainty Koo, and with Tae, he is seen as a 50s housewife within the taekook ship).
What I'm trying to get at is that these views which hold a lot of misconceptions, have a direct impact in the roles that are attributed to Jimin in shipping narratives. We can't look directly at a ship and try and make sense of the way each man is seen. We have to start the other way, by trying to understand how a shipper/fan/solo stan/, etc. sees Jimin in terms of gender and then it will reveal their own position towards what they believe of his sexuality in the context of a ship. I'm just throwing this out there because I have no actual data on this, but my belief is that a fan convinced that they need to constantly reassert Jimin's masculinity will stay away from a ship because masculinity also involves not being a woman and not being gay (as a part of normative masculinity views, being gay means being penetrated, of not being in charge, of being submissive, aka how the women are viewed within the patriarchal system). And those who tend to feminize him are probably more prone to ship Jimin with other men because they need the one who takes on the woman role.
*I will mark this answer and the previous one as parts of my own view towards the discussion of Jimin and gender identity/sexuality in the fandom. These are part of my big project which will entail a bigger post with research materials, but these posts are necessary as well.
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