i don't actually know if any of my silent following keeps tabs on me or is interested in what's going on in my life, but i'm pivoting from my general jewish studies focus into elementary education. i'm hoping to be able to start as a teacher in 2025, not bad all hiccups and tirespikes on the road to finishing college for me!

So...I may start posting on here more often because as of now this is the only platform I have where people I know irl don’t follow me. Let me explain...

In the middle of last year I decided to finally take charge of my health and do the things. Get a physical. Get a Pap smear. And lastly get a referral to get psychiatric testing done. See for the past couple of years I’ve been dealing with some issues. I thought I had ADHD and maybe some depression. I talked to my GP who was an ass and told me he doesn’t think ADHD exists but gave me the referral anyway.

Fast forward 3 months later and I still haven’t found a psychologist who A) does the testing and B) takes my insurance. Because the “referral specialist” at my GP office was useless. So I called my insurance company who actually helped me and I got an appointment for intake in November. After that did the testing in December and two days ago finally got my answers.

Yes. I have ADHD. The combined presentation kind. But I was shocked to also be diagnosed with Bipolar 1 disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder.

I’ve told my close circle. My mom, my best friends, my fiancé. But I’m not ready to go public with this. I’m scared. This was not an answer I was expecting. And all the literature I find online is about one of these diagnosis. It’s hard to find anything about two of them together and impossible to find anything about all 3 and how they interact. Plus my psychologist didn’t have anyone for me to have as a therapist or psychiatrist in her office because of my insurance.

Is there anyone on here who’s been diagnosed with all 3 disorders? Anyone that can give me tips? What kind of therapy did you get get. I feel like I’m drowning in a lack of information. I just want to know I’m not the only one out there.

So after logging in for the first time in- honestly I wanna say a year 😟- I found a private message from someone asking me what has been helping me get better

and like an idiot I immediately accidentally deleted the message. So, sorry person that I can't message you back, but I'm gonna post this and hopefully you'll see it. I've been through a lot of major life changes in the past couple years and haven't really been on tumblr at all (sadly! I've been on a limited data plan too, so I deleted the app). I hope you've all been well in the meantime and are managing ok

This is going to be a very long post, but I'll try to break it up into paragraphs that will make it easier to skim for what you find useful. Quick warning, I'm going to be mentioning eating disorders a few times, but without going into details. First off, I'll go into a couple of the big developments in my life that are derma-relevant. A few months ago I was finally diagnosed with bipolar II, which consists mostly of depressive episodes, but has to be treated differently than unipolar depression, since antidepressants without a mood stabilizer can cause bipolar cycling. I'm now on a mood stabilizer, which is working well, and I'm finding that without bipolar cycling I have less anxiety, leading to less need for self-soothing rituals, which for me leads to less picking. If you might have an underlying condition that's exacerbating your picking, please go see a doctor/psychologist/psychiatrist if you can and haven't already. It took me several of them over several years to be taken seriously, and I'm going to follow up with a separate post with some of the details on how I finally got through to the professionals, in case that's helpful. Another change in my life is that I've relocated, moving out of state after (mostly) living where I come from into my adult years. Being away from all the places and things that pull me back into old traumas and outdated anxieties has helped A LOT. Of course, moving isn't a solution for everyone, and it requires some money and a lot of freedom, and it's stressful... my point is really just that external circumstances play a big role in how we feel and behave and it's worth making whatever positive changes you can. They won't "fix" your derma, but if you can focus on some of your other goals you may find that you're picking less. But of course, change just triggers some people, so it's very important to take what you know about yourself into account on this one. Now, to address the question I deleted, I'm gonna lay out a bunch of the strategies that were working for me before all that: I read a post by someone in the derma community several years ago recommending the book The Four Day Win by Martha Beck, and read it. I wish I remembered who suggested this or where, so I could give credit, but this was probably 5 years back and I have no idea. It's a diet book, but many of the chapters apply to reducing any behavior that you're trying to break out of, and adapt well to skin picking. I had a hard time pushing through the book because I'm extremely anti-diet and firmly believe that advocating dieting is also advocating eating disorders. Several members of my family have struggled with eating disorders, so there were times when I wanted to throw this book across the room, but ultimately I found it helpful. You can probably get a copy from your local library if you want to read it, but I'm also going to give a capsule version here of what I found helpful/adapted from the book for my own use. The premise is that instead of setting ourselves up for failure by trying to do something difficult *indefinitely* (sticking to a diet or not picking, for example), we only commit to four days at a time, and give ourselves a reward when we complete a four day cycle. The rewards, for me, were something small and concrete, usually buying myself something inexpensive that I wanted. When the four days was up, I was allowed to pick all I wanted, but then would start another four days of not picking right after. If four days is too long to manage, you can always use shorter times. I would often do 3 days, but if 2 or even 1 whole day is more realistic for you it's more important to set a very specific time and then reward yourself at the end. You have to be consistent with the reward, not giving yourself the reward anyway if you do pick, and not sacrificing it (to save money or whatever) if you do make your goal. It's like training an animal, except we are the animal we're training. Make sure your rewards aren't anything you pretty much need, since that becomes a system of punishments for not making it, and in order to work this has to be a system of rewards for doing well. It's an entirely positive system. I would sometimes get myself a larger reward if I didn't pick (or barely picked) between 3 or 4 day no-picking periods, but didn't plan ahead for that because you really need to keep your mind on the short term when doing this. If I did pick when I wasn't supposed to, I would sometimes give myself a reduced version of the original reward if I made it to the end of the original 4 days without doing it again. For instance, if I was going to buy a new set of paint brushes, I might scale it back to choosing an individual brush. Or if I felt like it was realistic, I would start another 4 days immediately after lapsing. Being as realistic as possible is important for this one. Another thing I would do is keep a log of where on my body I was picking, when, how many individual spots I was going at, and any particularly pertinent facts like an unusual mood or triggering event. I was putting it in the calendar on my phone so the time was recorded automatically, and I had a system of abbreviations that kept it easy. An entry might read "f4, a2 (blood), s4. Very anxious", which would mean I picked at 4 spots on my face, 2 on my arms to the point of drawing blood, and 4 spots on my shoulders, and that I was experiencing an unusual degree of anxiety. I would differentiate between my arms and shoulders because my shoulders are a particular problem area for me, but I also pick at my scalp sometimes, so I would indicate my scalp with an "h" for head, since "s" was shoulders. If I picked at an area enough that I couldn't say a specific number of spots, I would just say "bad", like "a2, sbad, l3" would mean I picked 2 spots on my arms and 3 on my legs and really took it out on my shoulders. Of course, you would adapt your log to what is most pertinent or useful for you. The log served a few purposes. For one, just having more awareness can be really helpful, also I would actually sometimes hold off on picking just because if I did it, I would have to acknowledge it in writing. I would sometimes stop myself in time to put down a number instead of "bad". It also makes it easier to see when you've been doing pretty well lately, and feel good about it. Prepping to pick helped too, instead of denying that I was going to do it until the very last minute and then going at it impulsively. I would get home at night or in the afternoon and wash my hands with antibacterial soap first thing, then rinse my face and put on a face mask that I could keep on for a couple hours. Its best if you can do that without being in front of a mirror, which could mean using your kitchen sink or covering your bathroom mirror. If you can't do that, try not to even glance at the mirror if you can manage. I got pretty good at keeping my eyes down completely while going through this routine. When I eventually had to rinse off the mask, if I did get sucked into picking at least my hands and face were clean and the skin on my face was in pretty good shape so the damage was minimized and the spots I picked at wouldn't flare up and get infected from getting all the dirt you pick up outside in them (gross, I know). Honey works pretty well in place of commercial face masks, cause it's a physical barrier and great for your skin, but you have to be more committed to avoiding mirrors, since you can still see your skin through honey. Besides face masks/honey, there were other physical barriers that helped. Pretty much everyone comments on this, but it bears repeating. I would wear shirts at home that were tight in the sleeves so getting at my shoulders wasn't convenient, which honestly is something I need to get back in the habit of doing. As you can probably tell from all the past-tense, I'm doing well lately, but my arms and shoulders are what I go for most when I do pick. If there were only a couple visible spots on my face, I would cover them with band-aids, and I would sometimes wear gloves at home. I've also made lists for myself of anything that's helpful, meaning both practical tips and alternatives to picking (even if they sound dumb or obvious), and information that it's helpful for me to remind myself of. I have an old list in front of me right now, and some of the suggestions on it are super simple, but were actually helpful for whatever reason. Some of them actually strike me as kind of self-shaming now, but inspired me at the time. Whatever works, I guess. Here are some of the items from the list (the not-shamey ones): Wait it out. Later is better than now. Drink some water. Have a snack. Take a nap. Put on long sleeves. Consciously remember not to do it. Turn out the lights. Watch a movie. Read a book. Listen to music. This is an outgrown coping mechanism. This is an internalization of being "picked on." I don't want to let people who have treated me unfairly manifest themselves in me. DON'T do "just one" (it's never just one). Relapse is a normal part of recovery, and it doesn't determine the future. Adherence is the goal, but near-adherence is almost as good. If I can't do 100%, I can try for 90%, or 75%. It's still worth maintaining, even if it's not perfect. No comment made by any idiot is my problem. Relax and breathe. Remember to eat, sleep, and play music. I really don't need to touch my face at all except for daily skincare. Even MH "just stopped". I'll explain that last item. It's a reference to Marya Hornbacher's memoir, Wasted. Marya had a severe eating disorder for years, to the point that it almost killed her (you may know this part, it's been a popular title for a while...) Like I said, my family history is peppered with eating disorders, so I've put in my due diligence reading up on them. She reaches the point of almost dying, and then -like some kind of miracle- she "just stops" the behavior that would otherwise have taken her life. The reason I included that as a kind of affirmation isn't because I think my picking will "just stop", but rather because it's such an extreme example of how people sometimes turn a corner in their struggles and start to get better, no matter how bleak their future looked during their darkest times. Anyway, making lists like this are helpful if you can include whatever helps YOU to remember, not what helps someone else, or only things you don't think are obvious. If it's obvious and it helps you, put it on the list. If it's not clear why exactly it's relevant but it helps you, put it on the list. Then keep your list someplace handy, like on your wall or taped to your desk, or in the back of your journal. I hope some of this helps y'all, sorry it's 5 miles long, but I wanted to include everything I could think of. Love you all. Best.

Podcast: Do Cell Phones Cause Anxiety?

Do you constantly refresh your social media feed? Are you checking your notifications more often than you’d like to admit?  In today’s Psych Central Podcast, Gabe and psychologist Robert Duff have an enlightening discussion on how the information age has affected our mental health — but only if we let it. Dr. Duff explains how the overuse of social media is often driven by a fear of missing out and even a false sense of productivity.

So how can we work with the modern world rather than be controlled by it? Join us to hear specific tips on how to make social media the servant, not the master, of your reality.

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

  Guest information for ‘Robert Duff- Social Media Anxiety’ Podcast Episode

Robert Duff is a licensed clinical psychologist from Southern California. He is the author of the popular Hardcore Self Help book series and his most recent book, Does My Mom Have Dementia?. He also hosts a weekly podcast where he answers listener mental health questions and interviews interesting guests. When he’s not working as a neuropsychologist in private practice or creating content for his “Duff the Psych” persona, Robert can usually be found sharing a few glasses of wine with his wife or playing video games.

About The Psych Central Podcast Host

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. To learn more about Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Robert Duff- Social Media Anxiety’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Psych Central Podcast, where guest experts in the field of psychology and mental health share thought-provoking information using plain, everyday language. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Welcome to this week’s episode of The Psych Central Podcast. Calling into the show today, we have Dr. Robert Duff. Robert is a licensed clinical psychologist and is the author of the popular Hardcore Self Help book series. He’s also a fellow podcast, hosting the Hard Core Self Help Podcast, a weekly show where he answers listeners’ mental health questions and interviews interesting guests. Dr. Duff, welcome to the show.

Dr. Robert Duff: Thank you so much for having me.

Gabe Howard: Today, we’re going to discuss anxiety and the modern age and more specifically, how things like technology and social media impact our anxiety and stress levels. I think that most people don’t realize that our modern world is causing us stress in other ways than just work, relationships and children.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think at the very least, it’s different. I wouldn’t say better or worse, but certainly the Internet and definitely social media, I think, are kind of some of the biggest changes to society and the way that we interact since the industrial revolution or the printing press or something like that. So absolutely, it’s different.

Gabe Howard: It seems like if you read back through history, every new thing was going to be the end of the world. And I remember reading about the printing press and how the printing press was going to destroy the world as we know it. And it was fascinating to read because, of course, we all love the printing press. We think that the printing press is one of the greatest revolutions in the world. And yet at the time, it was very much maligned as being a bad thing. Which leads me to my question. Is that this. Are people just saying, oh, no, social media and technology is the downfall of the world and it’s sort of, you know, the sky is falling syndrome.

Dr. Robert Duff: I think that people can fall on either side of it. Sometimes people think that it’s a very, very, very negative thing. For me, I’m like, well, it doesn’t matter either way, it is what it is. And it’s sort of growing up in this period of time. I think that one of our major, for lack of a better term, developmental tasks is to figure out how to manage all this stuff, because there’s just a lot. The jump up from the printing press gives you access to information that you never had before. And this is that like times a gazillion. So there’s just a lot in knowing what to do with that, how to manage that. I think it’s a really, really, really important thing.

Gabe Howard: Social media is just the, it gets blamed for everything, it seems nowadays. What role does social media play in anxiety in 2020?

Dr. Robert Duff: There’s good and bad and neutral, you know, it is what it is. I think that one of the good things about it is that you have unprecedented access to connecting with people and finding resources. If you’re to go on Twitter say, and say, hey, I’m having extreme anxiety. Can somebody help me out? And a bunch of people are going to come and they’re going to send you resources. That’s how a lot of people find my books and stuff like that, for instance. So there’s, it’s a great way to connect with people. It’s a great way to find resources. It also, though, feeds into sort of the compulsive nature of anxiety. Anxiety, you tend to get this sense of unease like you want to know the answer. Whether that’s is the situation dangerous or what’s going on in the world or how does this person feel about me? You really, really, really want to know the answer to that. And social media gives you a way to either get those answers or at least fulfill some of that compulsive desire to do that. So, when you want to know what’s going on in the world, all you have to do is refresh your social feed. And you see the news there these days. A lot of people, myself included, don’t even turn on the TV or go to CNN.com when we want to get news.

Dr. Robert Duff: I just go to Twitter and see what’s trending. And that’s going to help me understand in the immediate right now sense what’s going on, which is a good thing and a bad thing. I always tell people your knowledge of what’s happening in this moment, especially if it’s something like a natural disaster, a shooting, a political event, things like that. Your knowledge of it does not change the fact that it’s happening at all. But there’s this, with how much information is available, there’s just this weird guilt that sort of sets in where if you don’t know what’s happening in that exact moment, you feel bad about that or disconnected somehow. And so, you know, by refreshing your feed, by checking those things, it relieves some of that. They release some of that tension, which is going to lead you to do that more and more and more. So it can become a thing that’s just so absent minded. You’re constantly either checking notifications, which is a whole different story, or just refreshing social feeds, trying to see what’s going on. And that can certainly play into anxiety, especially if it’s an issue that you already have.

Gabe Howard: It’s fascinating that you talked about refreshing the social feed to learn what’s going on, to release anxiety on one hand. I completely agree with you. I have done it. I have sat there on my phone when something a big event has happened. And I’ve just hit refresh, refresh, refresh, you know, going through like four different Web sites going on, like you said, Twitter or Facebook to see what other people are saying or what other people are posting. And in that moment, I feel less anxious because after all, I’m up to date.

Dr. Robert Duff: Right. Right.

Gabe Howard: But then again, I’m completely enmeshed in it.

Dr. Robert Duff: Right.

Gabe Howard: I’m not doing anything else. I’m not focused on anything else. I’m letting other things like work, family, friendships, joy go, because I’m just, I’m so engrossed in this story. And then I often learn, whether it be days, weeks or months later that some of the information I got was just false. There’s so much pressure to have the scoop that people say the police questioned Gabe Howard. He’s a suspect. And in the meantime, Gabe Howard was the Jimmy John’s delivery guy. And now the whole world believes that the poor Jimmy John’s delivery guy is involved. Which I imagine creates even more anxiety.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah.

Gabe Howard: How does that all flow together?

Dr. Robert Duff: The other thing to think about with this is how it doesn’t allow you to turn off with anxiety. A lot of people. Their brain is already going to be searching for signs of danger. Answers to things. It’s going to be sort of always on. And it’s an active effort to try to get that to slow down, to rest, to recuperate. Sustained anxiety over time is really exhausting. And then you integrate something like this where you’re getting the immediate information that’s constantly changing. So you have to keep up with it. I can recall just recently, somewhat recently, I live in the area of California that has all the wildfires, these really big fires that have happened. And one of them that was closest to us happened while my wife was asleep. But I was still awake and I had to really make the choice of, OK, do I wake her up and let her know what’s happening? Just because she needs to know with the knowledge that that’s going to keep her up all night because she’s going to be doing that refresh and continuing

Gabe Howard: Right.

Dr. Robert Duff: To look, continuing to get that. Or do I wait till there’s a need to know part of the information? Because really, for all practical purposes, it wasn’t affecting us yet at that point and the information was only going to be more solid later on. But you really, really, really, really want to know. And the anxiety is going to fuel that because it’s going to say, hey, I’m trying to keep you safe. The best thing you can do here is gather all this information, try to figure out every aspect of it, and then also avoid things that would actually make a difference or maybe make you involved somehow. So it definitely plays into it. But at the very least, I think we need to pay attention to how it affects us. And one of my biggest sort of takeaways for people is that you need to start building some self awareness about how social media plays out for you, for different people, it’s going to have a different level of impact. For me, it may not be quite as big as somebody like. Like I said, my wife, she’s somebody that openly struggles with anxiety. It has a big effect on her. And so knowing when to invite that in, when to not invite that in, I think that’s a skill that we all sort of need to build at this point.

Gabe Howard: I’m thinking of my own social media use, and I got sucked in by everything, I had the notifications on, so when something happened, there was a ding. I had the emails that came in. And this is the thing that I’m most ashamed of. I wanted to earn all of the badges. Social media does a really good job of telling you that you’re a top poster, you’re a top fan. You’ve made one

Dr. Robert Duff: Verified.

Gabe Howard: Update a day every day for 100 days or. Yeah. Verified is a big one. I wanted to earn, and I’m using that word earn. I wanted to earn them all. But I’ve since learned, as comes with, you know, maturity and age and better understanding that I wasn’t earning anything. It was a false reward. I think many people are stuck in this trap where they think they’re accomplishing something. But in reality, you’re not accomplishing anything.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, definitely. And the checking nature of social media with anxiety, you’re taking away that unease of not knowing what’s going on. But then on top of that, there’s also positive reinforcement. You’re getting hearts. You’re getting likes. You’re getting badges, you’re getting these things. And they are just quick little hits of essentially dopamine that are reinforcing you for that behavior. And it’s built that way. That’s why Facebook is such a huge monster that can charge so much for ads and make so much money because everything is just built on that. It’s like Vegas. You know, you have this positive reinforcement. You have the light, you have the ding, you have the money payout. You have all these things that kind of keep you going and keep you going. And so I think that’s definitely important to recognize that it’s designed to make you compulsive. That doesn’t mean it’s a terrible thing in and of itself. But just like when you walk into a store, you see all the ads and promotions and things like that, you’ve got to at least know that they’re trying to sell you and that’s going to at least help you take things with a grain of salt.

Gabe Howard: I do think that people understand that the stores, the televisions are trying to sell you. Do you think that people understand that Facebook and other social media sites are trying to sell you? Do you think that people understand that they are are consumer of these products? And do you think that that understanding or lack of understanding contributes to anxiety?

Dr. Robert Duff: That’s an interesting question. I think that one thing that Facebook and the social media platforms do really well as they get to know you, you give them permission to give them a lot of your information. And so things start to become very tailored to you. You know, you hear the stories about, oh, I was talking over dinner about getting a new vacuum. Suddenly I see ads for new vacuums. So, I mean, I think that people do know that they’re being sold to. However, it is worked in a very sort of contextual way where sometimes you don’t even notice it. But I have kind of mixed feelings about, I’m getting a little bit off topic with this. But the idea of sort of your social media feed becoming a bit of a bubble, that’s very tailored toward you. It depends on what you’re using it for. But for some people, maybe social media plays a great role in broadening your perspective for other people. I think there’s nothing necessarily wrong with controlling what you see there for ads or for different types of posts. You can block. You can say, I don’t want to see this type of content. You can sort of curate your social media feed to be something that works for you instead of against you. Somebody who has, say, depression. They might want to intentionally remove some of the things that are maybe a little bit more pessimistic. They may want to bring in things that are a lot more that’s sort of positive content. That’s going to help them at least have a tiny boost throughout their day that will inspire them. And I don’t think that there’s necessarily anything wrong with that. I think a lot of people feel like there is. So they feel like, oh, well, I can’t just, like, make myself in my own little bubble because then I’m not seeing what’s going on on the other side. It’s a tool. It’s a tool that you can use however you want to. But it’s something that you do have some degree of control over.

Gabe Howard: I know that you talk a lot about fake productivity or false productivity. It’s this idea where you think you’re accomplishing something but you’re not. Can you explain what fake productivity is?

Dr. Robert Duff: So for me, the way that I see this the most is with not necessarily social media, but like apps. There are gazillions of apps out there and they’re all trying to be the perfect tool for this thing, whether it’s a to do list or a calendar app or tracking your period or exercise, whatever it is. There’s a million options for each of those things. And one thing that a lot of people do is fall down this rabbit hole of searching for the perfect tool. Oh, this one doesn’t have this feature. OK. Let’s keep looking. OK. This one has a lot of great features, but not quite. This one was too expensive. And you keep going. Keep going, keep going. Keep going. And at the end of the day, whatever the tool is supposed to help you with, you did nothing related to that thing. You don’t have your to do list made. Your calendar isn’t updated. So you kind of spent a bunch of time going down this rabbit hole of trying to be sold on the perfect tool and didn’t actually do anything with it. And for people who have anxiety. So with anxiety, the thing I would say is that avoidance is the fuel of anxiety. Anxiety tells you to avoid something so that it can keep you safe. And then when you do avoid that thing, it gets bigger and more present. So you avoid more and more and more and then suddenly you’re having a really hard time. And I think that one sort of insidious thing that can happen is that we turn this search for the perfect tool into a form of avoidance. If you’re just planning and looking for the right thing and doing all this top level stuff, you don’t actually have to take action because action is scary. And so you can use that as a form of avoidance and just kind of keep doing this over and over again.

Gabe Howard: But you’re not actually achieving anything. And at some point you realize this. It really does seem like this self-fulfilling prophecy. I’m anxious because I’m productive. Now I’m anxious because I’m realizing I’m not productive. But I can be productive by doing what is effectively nothing. But if I don’t do it, I become anxious. But if I do do it, I become anxious. I just I’m having, like, a really hard time getting out of the feedback loop of what do I do so that I am productive, well-informed. And I don’t have this sudden fear that I don’t fit into society and that I’m just one of these curmudgeonly people on my porch saying social media is going to kill us all. This whole conversation is making me anxious because I honestly don’t know what to do.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I mean, that’s anxiety itself, though, right? Whether it’s social media or anything else, I think that the thing that the Internet does and social media does is provide like a big sort of magnifying glass or megaphone for those things that are already tendencies you have. The answer is really trying to build self-awareness of your patterns. Right. And especially understanding the way that your patterns interact with these new tools that are available. The best way I think to do that is talking with people, trusted loved ones, your therapist, whoever. Also journaling. That’s like a form of self therapy and sort of self monitoring. OK. Write down at the end of the day, what did I do today and how did it affect me? I spent six hours diving down this rabbit hole of trying to find the perfect tools and all my apps are set up pretty and all these things, but I haven’t done anything. And now I feel bad about that. And I feel anxious that I wasted time and I have less time tomorrow to do all these things, write those things out so you can at least understand your patterns and use that information to adjust your approach. I’m a big fan of using both online and offline things open in front of my face right now. I have an Evernote document with some notes from when you asked me questions beforehand for this interview, I’ll also have my Google Keep, which has like my whole to do list. But I’ve also got a stupid little index card in front of me. If I think of something and I don’t have time to get to the to do list, I’m just going to write it down there.

Gabe Howard: We’ll be right back after these messages.

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Gabe Howard: And we’re back discussing anxiety in the digital age with Dr. Robert Duff. I certainly don’t think that the solution here is to cancel all of your social media, never read the news, never get on email, never prepare. Like you talked about the extremes. How does one make sure that they’re staying in the middle? Because I imagine that that moderation, that middle, that average is where the least amount of anxiety comes in.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think a lot of it is about sort of setting limits for yourself and having some boundaries with yourself at this point. I think it’s really unrealistic to tell people to say, OK, you’re only allowed to do these actions at this time, like you’re only allowed to engage with social media at this time. That’s kind of pushing against a really strong beast, unless social media isn’t even a big thing for you. There’s plenty people out there with like, oh, well, I don’t have a Facebook it’s not a big deal, but insert whatever it is, checking email, checking the news, what have you. It’s easier, though, to block out times that are sacred, times that you’re not doing that. Actively disconnecting from the world. And I think that’s really important in terms of like especially things like sleep, being able to sleep and turn off for the night. Massively important when you’re dealing with mental health issues, both in terms of memory and learning the skills that you’re trying to work on and build and just giving enough energy to get back out there and fight a little bit of the uphill battle that you’ve been fighting. So I’m a big fan of sort of book ending the day is what I call it. So the beginning of the day, first half hour or so, last hour of the day, disconnecting from the world, putting the phone away. And I really am a big fan of not even having your phone in the bedroom because so many people, last thing they see before they close their eyes is their phone, email or social media feed.

Dr. Robert Duff: Then they close their eyes. If they wake up in the middle of the night, drink water, they’re going to be checking their social media feed again or their email. They wake up in the morning. What’s the first thing they see? They pull that out again. And really, I think that there are very, very, very few instances where that’s going to be a great thing. It could be neutral. It could not affect you very much. And there’s a pretty significant chance that it’s going to derail you. If you’re gonna see something that pisses you off, something that scares you, something that you forgot about for work or whatever, you know, the last thing you need is to wake up in the middle of the night and see a work email. OK, bye bye sleep. So I’m a big fan of in the morning, kind of taking some time before you even pull out your phone. Make yourself some coffee. Take a few deep breaths. Write some thoughts down if you have them. Do whatever you want to do with that and then pull that out. And at the end of the night, focus inward, do some journaling. Like I said, you can do some stretching or foam rolling or deep breathing or just enjoy an off line activity like we used to do in the olden days and try to come down a little bit and disconnect from the world so that you can drift off into restorative sleep, not having your brain running a million miles per hour.

Gabe Howard: When I am in a hotel, when I travel, I keep my phone next to me because it’s my alarm clock and every single time I get up to go to the bathroom, because that phone is sitting next to my bed, I check it. Now, fortunately, 90% of the time, there’s nothing on there. But 10% of the time there’s something, there’s something. And I’m up the rest of the night. And I think that people need to realize this. Now, what do you say to the people who are going to immediately fire back, well, I have to. I have to keep the phone next to my bed because I have teenage children who are out or my spouse works nights and might need to call. I am the emergency contact for my mother or of course, my personal favorite, it’s my alarm clock and there’s just no way around that.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, those are all very anxious responses, right? You know, oh, my God, what if this what if that. There are ways around that. They still make alarm clocks. 

Gabe Howard: Yeah.

Dr. Robert Duff: I have one. It’s really annoying. I have to put it on the other side of the room. So actually physically get up and walk over there. Otherwise, I’ll just turn over and hit it with my hand. So, you know.

Gabe Howard: We may be soulmates. I’ve just, yes, I do the exact same thing.

Dr. Robert Duff: I’ve always had to because my brain will create a scenario where there’s like a nuclear launch happening and I have to hit this button to stop it. And that’s the alarm clock. And so my brain will troll me and it just won’t work. So I have to actually physically get up. But, yeah, they make real alarm clocks, you know, and then in terms of the other concerns about what if there’s an emergency, et cetera, there’s a variety of ways around that. There are things like maybe you have your Apple Watch in the room if you have Apple products, but not your phone. Or you keep it outside the room, but you keep it on do not disturb and you can sort of have your specifications. So if somebody calls you, it’ll ring loudly. I mean, that’s outside the room, but you’ll still be able to hear it. There’s a variety of ways to do it. If you have teenage kids that are out for the night, maybe that’s the night you make an exception and you try to be responsible with it. As responsible as you can, not keep it right next to the bed. But that’s your kind of exception for the week and the rest of the week, you’re not going to have it in there. So you could do a lot with it. And those are usually just sort of knee-jerk reactions. I get that sort of knee-jerk reaction from people a lot, too, when I’m talking about setting limits on social media, even taking breaks from social media, things like this, they say, well, it’s my job. I need to be on it. There’s definitely usually a little more wiggle room than you think there as well.

Gabe Howard: I really feel like this all does boil down to making healthy choices and sticking to them and I really think this is a good analogy that people who say that they don’t have time to exercise and the people that say that they have to be on social media. But, of course, one of the things that you can do to exercise is park at the back of the parking lot and walk forward. You can take the steps instead of the elevator so you can turn off social media during dinner. 

Dr. Robert Duff: Right.

Gabe Howard: Do you believe that finding those tiny little things? Because in the grand scheme, those are small things. But it sounds like you’re saying those will pay big dividends when it comes to lessening our anxiety.

Dr. Robert Duff: I feel like just exercising control over it is a good practice, right? Intentionally putting it away sometimes, intentionally having it out sometimes. If you’re feeling that discomfort, much like if you walk out the door and you realize your phone Psych in your pocket, you get this sense of discomfort these days like, oh, God, something’s wrong. A lot of people feel that way. If they’re not able to immediately check their phone at dinner and they’re feeling a buzz in their pocket or whatever you have, that that sense of discomfort. So learning how to sort of modulate that and do it intentionally, you know, I’m going to put my phone away or I’m going to log off or not check these things for this period of time, at least gives you the flexibility to say, OK, sometimes I’m on, sometimes I’m off. And that’s a practice I think, that people need to need to do. You know, we have all these coping skills, mindfulness, you know, all these different things that that we use in the mental health field. I think that this is just simply another one of those things, sort of like technological flexibility or something. The ability to just decide when you’re on and when you’re off. And that’s a hard thing to do when the structure is designed to make you on all the time. But you need to wrest some control back from that. Otherwise you’re gonna be worn out.

Gabe Howard: I hear a lot of what you’re saying, and I completely agree with it, and I know that making more intentional decisions about our social media and about our use of technology will make us feel better. But do you think that there is a role in that when we’re staring at our phones? There’s often people in the room and those people are our friends, our families, our loved ones. And they maybe don’t feel so good about it. And they’re probably giving us pushback, whether straight up, put your phone down or passive aggressive, well, I’m not going to tell you. You care more about your phone or whatever. Do you think that keeping them happy also lowers your anxiety? And I know keeping them happy is kind of a weird way to say it, but in the beginning, I got a lot of negative pushback from my friends and family, which also made me more anxious. And when I got better control over my phone and social media use, a lot of that went away. Which, of course, made me less anxious.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think so. I mean, and also you’re making the assumption that the other person isn’t also on their phone. 

Gabe Howard: Sure.

Dr. Robert Duff: And then suddenly you are just both disconnected, sort of doing parallel life next to each other. Communication is something that is still really important, you know, and you could be communicating with people online. I think that’s valid. But you also need to communicate with people in person. And when couples are having trouble in my clinical practice, a lot of things sometimes I ask, do you guys eat dinner together? Like, do you sit across each other and eat dinner? And often the answer is no. We sit side by side or on our phones, whatever the case may be. And it’s like, OK, well, then you’re robbing yourself of the chance to practice communicating with one another and getting that support from one another. And yeah, I think that definitely accessing the supports that you have and then treating them well is it’s really important. That it’s a whole piece of the puzzle, along with all the other things you might do to help relieve your anxiety. So I definitely agree with you there.

Gabe Howard: I could talk to you about this all day because people seem to be more anxious than ever, people seem to be more disconnected than ever at a time that we should be more connected than ever. But the specific question that I want to ask you really involves a story with my grandfather. One morning, my grandfather comes downstairs, he is staying at my house, and he sees my wife and I sitting at the breakfast table and we’re both on our phones and and he says, oh, this is the problem with your generation. You’re staring at your phones. You’re not talking to one another. You know, in my day, we didn’t have this. We actually talked to each other. And for the rest of that day, I felt a little bad. I was like, oh, my God, this is my wife. I love her. And he’s right. I’m ignoring her. And then the next morning, I come downstairs and my grandmother and grandfather are sitting at the table and my grandfather’s reading the paper.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yep.

Gabe Howard: Yeah. And my grandmother is doing the crossword puzzle, completely ignoring each other.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, yeah.

Gabe Howard: And I said, oh, this is the problem with your generation, completely ignoring each other for newsprint. It seems like it’s very much the same thing. We’ve seen couples sit at the breakfast table ignoring each other since the beginning of time, but it does seem like technology is way more intrusive than the morning newspaper routine. Can you talk about that for moment? Because again, I think it’s one of those excuses. Oh, I’m on my phone, but my grandfather was on his newspaper.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, people have always found ways to sort of disconnect and go into their own world, and I don’t want to place a value judgment on any of this. If they’re happy. These things are only a problem when they’re a problem. Right? If you’re realizing that these things are creating a sense of disconnection in your relationship or creating a sense of anxiety or messing with your sleep, that’s what you need to do something about it. If not, and if you’re satisfied and happy, that’s fine. You know, certainly there are times where what my wife wants to do is sit next to me and be on her phone, not talk to me, because she wants me my presence. But she’s super introverted and just doesn’t want to people right then, you know?

Gabe Howard: I like that.

Dr. Robert Duff: And that’s OK. That’s OK. But when it crosses into interfering with things, that’s, I think, where you need to pay attention. And so this is just the next platform for that and things that you need to consider related to this platform. I do think that the intensity is higher. Right? You’re right. There’s a big difference between having a book or a crossword or newspaper, then having this endless stream of information. And the default is to have all these notifications on, which I don’t think you should have. Where it is just constantly pulling your attention out of the present moment. And I think that in addition to the relationship part, the sort of regular life part, I think that we need to reclaim our ability to do deep work and focus on something without being distracted by all these other things. And so that’s another part where I think that training, that skill of being a turn on and off really matters when you’re having a conversation with someone or when you’re writing a paper or when you’re working on some sort of brainstorming project, you should be able to start that and put the work in without having to be pulled away constantly by these other things. If you can’t do that and it’s kind of messing with your productivity or your relationship, that’s where you need to maybe take a close look at how these things are affecting you and what you can do about that.

Gabe Howard: Robert, thank you so very much. How do people find you, what’s your Web site? Where can they get your podcast? Where are your books? Let our listeners know exactly how to track you down.

Dr. Robert Duff: Sure. So my sort of online persona is it’s called Duff the Psych. So if, a good place to start is DuffthePsych.com/StartHere. That has sort of like my greatest hits. So it has, you know, information about my books, which are called The Hardcore Self Help books. I’ve one about anxiety, one about depression. It has some of my most popular podcast episodes, A TED talk that I did. All sorts of things like that. That’s sort of like a great starting place. And then if you want to reach out to me or connect on social media, I’m on basically all platforms @DuffthePsych.

Gabe Howard: Robert, thank you so much again for being here.

Dr. Robert Duff: Totally my pleasure. Thank you.

Gabe Howard: And listen up, listeners, here’s what I need you to do. Wherever you found this podcast, please subscribe and review it and use your words. Tell people why you like us. Share us on social media. And if you are a fan of social media, we have a super secret Facebook group that you can join. Just go to PsychCentral.com/FBShow. And remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counseling anytime, anywhere, simply by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We’ll see everybody next week.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to The Psych Central Podcast. Want your audience to be wowed at your next event? Feature an appearance and LIVE RECORDING of the Psych Central Podcast right from your stage! For more details, or to book an event, please email us at [email protected]. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/Show or on your favorite podcast player. Psych Central is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals. Overseen by Dr. John Grohol, Psych Central offers trusted resources and quizzes to help answer your questions about mental health, personality, psychotherapy, and more. Please visit us today at PsychCentral.com.  To learn more about our host, Gabe Howard, please visit his website at gabehoward.com. Thank you for listening and please share with your friends, family, and followers.

  Podcast: Do Cell Phones Cause Anxiety? syndicated from

Podcast: Do Cell Phones Cause Anxiety?

Do you constantly refresh your social media feed? Are you checking your notifications more often than you’d like to admit?  In today’s Psych Central Podcast, Gabe and psychologist Robert Duff have an enlightening discussion on how the information age has affected our mental health — but only if we let it. Dr. Duff explains how the overuse of social media is often driven by a fear of missing out and even a false sense of productivity.

So how can we work with the modern world rather than be controlled by it? Join us to hear specific tips on how to make social media the servant, not the master, of your reality.

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

  Guest information for ‘Robert Duff- Social Media Anxiety’ Podcast Episode

Robert Duff is a licensed clinical psychologist from Southern California. He is the author of the popular Hardcore Self Help book series and his most recent book, Does My Mom Have Dementia?. He also hosts a weekly podcast where he answers listener mental health questions and interviews interesting guests. When he’s not working as a neuropsychologist in private practice or creating content for his “Duff the Psych” persona, Robert can usually be found sharing a few glasses of wine with his wife or playing video games.

About The Psych Central Podcast Host

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. To learn more about Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Robert Duff- Social Media Anxiety’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Psych Central Podcast, where guest experts in the field of psychology and mental health share thought-provoking information using plain, everyday language. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Welcome to this week’s episode of The Psych Central Podcast. Calling into the show today, we have Dr. Robert Duff. Robert is a licensed clinical psychologist and is the author of the popular Hardcore Self Help book series. He’s also a fellow podcast, hosting the Hard Core Self Help Podcast, a weekly show where he answers listeners’ mental health questions and interviews interesting guests. Dr. Duff, welcome to the show.

Dr. Robert Duff: Thank you so much for having me.

Gabe Howard: Today, we’re going to discuss anxiety and the modern age and more specifically, how things like technology and social media impact our anxiety and stress levels. I think that most people don’t realize that our modern world is causing us stress in other ways than just work, relationships and children.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think at the very least, it’s different. I wouldn’t say better or worse, but certainly the Internet and definitely social media, I think, are kind of some of the biggest changes to society and the way that we interact since the industrial revolution or the printing press or something like that. So absolutely, it’s different.

Gabe Howard: It seems like if you read back through history, every new thing was going to be the end of the world. And I remember reading about the printing press and how the printing press was going to destroy the world as we know it. And it was fascinating to read because, of course, we all love the printing press. We think that the printing press is one of the greatest revolutions in the world. And yet at the time, it was very much maligned as being a bad thing. Which leads me to my question. Is that this. Are people just saying, oh, no, social media and technology is the downfall of the world and it’s sort of, you know, the sky is falling syndrome.

Dr. Robert Duff: I think that people can fall on either side of it. Sometimes people think that it’s a very, very, very negative thing. For me, I’m like, well, it doesn’t matter either way, it is what it is. And it’s sort of growing up in this period of time. I think that one of our major, for lack of a better term, developmental tasks is to figure out how to manage all this stuff, because there’s just a lot. The jump up from the printing press gives you access to information that you never had before. And this is that like times a gazillion. So there’s just a lot in knowing what to do with that, how to manage that. I think it’s a really, really, really important thing.

Gabe Howard: Social media is just the, it gets blamed for everything, it seems nowadays. What role does social media play in anxiety in 2020?

Dr. Robert Duff: There’s good and bad and neutral, you know, it is what it is. I think that one of the good things about it is that you have unprecedented access to connecting with people and finding resources. If you’re to go on Twitter say, and say, hey, I’m having extreme anxiety. Can somebody help me out? And a bunch of people are going to come and they’re going to send you resources. That’s how a lot of people find my books and stuff like that, for instance. So there’s, it’s a great way to connect with people. It’s a great way to find resources. It also, though, feeds into sort of the compulsive nature of anxiety. Anxiety, you tend to get this sense of unease like you want to know the answer. Whether that’s is the situation dangerous or what’s going on in the world or how does this person feel about me? You really, really, really want to know the answer to that. And social media gives you a way to either get those answers or at least fulfill some of that compulsive desire to do that. So, when you want to know what’s going on in the world, all you have to do is refresh your social feed. And you see the news there these days. A lot of people, myself included, don’t even turn on the TV or go to CNN.com when we want to get news.

Dr. Robert Duff: I just go to Twitter and see what’s trending. And that’s going to help me understand in the immediate right now sense what’s going on, which is a good thing and a bad thing. I always tell people your knowledge of what’s happening in this moment, especially if it’s something like a natural disaster, a shooting, a political event, things like that. Your knowledge of it does not change the fact that it’s happening at all. But there’s this, with how much information is available, there’s just this weird guilt that sort of sets in where if you don’t know what’s happening in that exact moment, you feel bad about that or disconnected somehow. And so, you know, by refreshing your feed, by checking those things, it relieves some of that. They release some of that tension, which is going to lead you to do that more and more and more. So it can become a thing that’s just so absent minded. You’re constantly either checking notifications, which is a whole different story, or just refreshing social feeds, trying to see what’s going on. And that can certainly play into anxiety, especially if it’s an issue that you already have.

Gabe Howard: It’s fascinating that you talked about refreshing the social feed to learn what’s going on, to release anxiety on one hand. I completely agree with you. I have done it. I have sat there on my phone when something a big event has happened. And I’ve just hit refresh, refresh, refresh, you know, going through like four different Web sites going on, like you said, Twitter or Facebook to see what other people are saying or what other people are posting. And in that moment, I feel less anxious because after all, I’m up to date.

Dr. Robert Duff: Right. Right.

Gabe Howard: But then again, I’m completely enmeshed in it.

Dr. Robert Duff: Right.

Gabe Howard: I’m not doing anything else. I’m not focused on anything else. I’m letting other things like work, family, friendships, joy go, because I’m just, I’m so engrossed in this story. And then I often learn, whether it be days, weeks or months later that some of the information I got was just false. There’s so much pressure to have the scoop that people say the police questioned Gabe Howard. He’s a suspect. And in the meantime, Gabe Howard was the Jimmy John’s delivery guy. And now the whole world believes that the poor Jimmy John’s delivery guy is involved. Which I imagine creates even more anxiety.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah.

Gabe Howard: How does that all flow together?

Dr. Robert Duff: The other thing to think about with this is how it doesn’t allow you to turn off with anxiety. A lot of people. Their brain is already going to be searching for signs of danger. Answers to things. It’s going to be sort of always on. And it’s an active effort to try to get that to slow down, to rest, to recuperate. Sustained anxiety over time is really exhausting. And then you integrate something like this where you’re getting the immediate information that’s constantly changing. So you have to keep up with it. I can recall just recently, somewhat recently, I live in the area of California that has all the wildfires, these really big fires that have happened. And one of them that was closest to us happened while my wife was asleep. But I was still awake and I had to really make the choice of, OK, do I wake her up and let her know what’s happening? Just because she needs to know with the knowledge that that’s going to keep her up all night because she’s going to be doing that refresh and continuing

Gabe Howard: Right.

Dr. Robert Duff: To look, continuing to get that. Or do I wait till there’s a need to know part of the information? Because really, for all practical purposes, it wasn’t affecting us yet at that point and the information was only going to be more solid later on. But you really, really, really, really want to know. And the anxiety is going to fuel that because it’s going to say, hey, I’m trying to keep you safe. The best thing you can do here is gather all this information, try to figure out every aspect of it, and then also avoid things that would actually make a difference or maybe make you involved somehow. So it definitely plays into it. But at the very least, I think we need to pay attention to how it affects us. And one of my biggest sort of takeaways for people is that you need to start building some self awareness about how social media plays out for you, for different people, it’s going to have a different level of impact. For me, it may not be quite as big as somebody like. Like I said, my wife, she’s somebody that openly struggles with anxiety. It has a big effect on her. And so knowing when to invite that in, when to not invite that in, I think that’s a skill that we all sort of need to build at this point.

Gabe Howard: I’m thinking of my own social media use, and I got sucked in by everything, I had the notifications on, so when something happened, there was a ding. I had the emails that came in. And this is the thing that I’m most ashamed of. I wanted to earn all of the badges. Social media does a really good job of telling you that you’re a top poster, you’re a top fan. You’ve made one

Dr. Robert Duff: Verified.

Gabe Howard: Update a day every day for 100 days or. Yeah. Verified is a big one. I wanted to earn, and I’m using that word earn. I wanted to earn them all. But I’ve since learned, as comes with, you know, maturity and age and better understanding that I wasn’t earning anything. It was a false reward. I think many people are stuck in this trap where they think they’re accomplishing something. But in reality, you’re not accomplishing anything.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, definitely. And the checking nature of social media with anxiety, you’re taking away that unease of not knowing what’s going on. But then on top of that, there’s also positive reinforcement. You’re getting hearts. You’re getting likes. You’re getting badges, you’re getting these things. And they are just quick little hits of essentially dopamine that are reinforcing you for that behavior. And it’s built that way. That’s why Facebook is such a huge monster that can charge so much for ads and make so much money because everything is just built on that. It’s like Vegas. You know, you have this positive reinforcement. You have the light, you have the ding, you have the money payout. You have all these things that kind of keep you going and keep you going. And so I think that’s definitely important to recognize that it’s designed to make you compulsive. That doesn’t mean it’s a terrible thing in and of itself. But just like when you walk into a store, you see all the ads and promotions and things like that, you’ve got to at least know that they’re trying to sell you and that’s going to at least help you take things with a grain of salt.

Gabe Howard: I do think that people understand that the stores, the televisions are trying to sell you. Do you think that people understand that Facebook and other social media sites are trying to sell you? Do you think that people understand that they are are consumer of these products? And do you think that that understanding or lack of understanding contributes to anxiety?

Dr. Robert Duff: That’s an interesting question. I think that one thing that Facebook and the social media platforms do really well as they get to know you, you give them permission to give them a lot of your information. And so things start to become very tailored to you. You know, you hear the stories about, oh, I was talking over dinner about getting a new vacuum. Suddenly I see ads for new vacuums. So, I mean, I think that people do know that they’re being sold to. However, it is worked in a very sort of contextual way where sometimes you don’t even notice it. But I have kind of mixed feelings about, I’m getting a little bit off topic with this. But the idea of sort of your social media feed becoming a bit of a bubble, that’s very tailored toward you. It depends on what you’re using it for. But for some people, maybe social media plays a great role in broadening your perspective for other people. I think there’s nothing necessarily wrong with controlling what you see there for ads or for different types of posts. You can block. You can say, I don’t want to see this type of content. You can sort of curate your social media feed to be something that works for you instead of against you. Somebody who has, say, depression. They might want to intentionally remove some of the things that are maybe a little bit more pessimistic. They may want to bring in things that are a lot more that’s sort of positive content. That’s going to help them at least have a tiny boost throughout their day that will inspire them. And I don’t think that there’s necessarily anything wrong with that. I think a lot of people feel like there is. So they feel like, oh, well, I can’t just, like, make myself in my own little bubble because then I’m not seeing what’s going on on the other side. It’s a tool. It’s a tool that you can use however you want to. But it’s something that you do have some degree of control over.

Gabe Howard: I know that you talk a lot about fake productivity or false productivity. It’s this idea where you think you’re accomplishing something but you’re not. Can you explain what fake productivity is?

Dr. Robert Duff: So for me, the way that I see this the most is with not necessarily social media, but like apps. There are gazillions of apps out there and they’re all trying to be the perfect tool for this thing, whether it’s a to do list or a calendar app or tracking your period or exercise, whatever it is. There’s a million options for each of those things. And one thing that a lot of people do is fall down this rabbit hole of searching for the perfect tool. Oh, this one doesn’t have this feature. OK. Let’s keep looking. OK. This one has a lot of great features, but not quite. This one was too expensive. And you keep going. Keep going, keep going. Keep going. And at the end of the day, whatever the tool is supposed to help you with, you did nothing related to that thing. You don’t have your to do list made. Your calendar isn’t updated. So you kind of spent a bunch of time going down this rabbit hole of trying to be sold on the perfect tool and didn’t actually do anything with it. And for people who have anxiety. So with anxiety, the thing I would say is that avoidance is the fuel of anxiety. Anxiety tells you to avoid something so that it can keep you safe. And then when you do avoid that thing, it gets bigger and more present. So you avoid more and more and more and then suddenly you’re having a really hard time. And I think that one sort of insidious thing that can happen is that we turn this search for the perfect tool into a form of avoidance. If you’re just planning and looking for the right thing and doing all this top level stuff, you don’t actually have to take action because action is scary. And so you can use that as a form of avoidance and just kind of keep doing this over and over again.

Gabe Howard: But you’re not actually achieving anything. And at some point you realize this. It really does seem like this self-fulfilling prophecy. I’m anxious because I’m productive. Now I’m anxious because I’m realizing I’m not productive. But I can be productive by doing what is effectively nothing. But if I don’t do it, I become anxious. But if I do do it, I become anxious. I just I’m having, like, a really hard time getting out of the feedback loop of what do I do so that I am productive, well-informed. And I don’t have this sudden fear that I don’t fit into society and that I’m just one of these curmudgeonly people on my porch saying social media is going to kill us all. This whole conversation is making me anxious because I honestly don’t know what to do.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I mean, that’s anxiety itself, though, right? Whether it’s social media or anything else, I think that the thing that the Internet does and social media does is provide like a big sort of magnifying glass or megaphone for those things that are already tendencies you have. The answer is really trying to build self-awareness of your patterns. Right. And especially understanding the way that your patterns interact with these new tools that are available. The best way I think to do that is talking with people, trusted loved ones, your therapist, whoever. Also journaling. That’s like a form of self therapy and sort of self monitoring. OK. Write down at the end of the day, what did I do today and how did it affect me? I spent six hours diving down this rabbit hole of trying to find the perfect tools and all my apps are set up pretty and all these things, but I haven’t done anything. And now I feel bad about that. And I feel anxious that I wasted time and I have less time tomorrow to do all these things, write those things out so you can at least understand your patterns and use that information to adjust your approach. I’m a big fan of using both online and offline things open in front of my face right now. I have an Evernote document with some notes from when you asked me questions beforehand for this interview, I’ll also have my Google Keep, which has like my whole to do list. But I’ve also got a stupid little index card in front of me. If I think of something and I don’t have time to get to the to do list, I’m just going to write it down there.

Gabe Howard: We’ll be right back after these messages.

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Gabe Howard: And we’re back discussing anxiety in the digital age with Dr. Robert Duff. I certainly don’t think that the solution here is to cancel all of your social media, never read the news, never get on email, never prepare. Like you talked about the extremes. How does one make sure that they’re staying in the middle? Because I imagine that that moderation, that middle, that average is where the least amount of anxiety comes in.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think a lot of it is about sort of setting limits for yourself and having some boundaries with yourself at this point. I think it’s really unrealistic to tell people to say, OK, you’re only allowed to do these actions at this time, like you’re only allowed to engage with social media at this time. That’s kind of pushing against a really strong beast, unless social media isn’t even a big thing for you. There’s plenty people out there with like, oh, well, I don’t have a Facebook it’s not a big deal, but insert whatever it is, checking email, checking the news, what have you. It’s easier, though, to block out times that are sacred, times that you’re not doing that. Actively disconnecting from the world. And I think that’s really important in terms of like especially things like sleep, being able to sleep and turn off for the night. Massively important when you’re dealing with mental health issues, both in terms of memory and learning the skills that you’re trying to work on and build and just giving enough energy to get back out there and fight a little bit of the uphill battle that you’ve been fighting. So I’m a big fan of sort of book ending the day is what I call it. So the beginning of the day, first half hour or so, last hour of the day, disconnecting from the world, putting the phone away. And I really am a big fan of not even having your phone in the bedroom because so many people, last thing they see before they close their eyes is their phone, email or social media feed.

Dr. Robert Duff: Then they close their eyes. If they wake up in the middle of the night, drink water, they’re going to be checking their social media feed again or their email. They wake up in the morning. What’s the first thing they see? They pull that out again. And really, I think that there are very, very, very few instances where that’s going to be a great thing. It could be neutral. It could not affect you very much. And there’s a pretty significant chance that it’s going to derail you. If you’re gonna see something that pisses you off, something that scares you, something that you forgot about for work or whatever, you know, the last thing you need is to wake up in the middle of the night and see a work email. OK, bye bye sleep. So I’m a big fan of in the morning, kind of taking some time before you even pull out your phone. Make yourself some coffee. Take a few deep breaths. Write some thoughts down if you have them. Do whatever you want to do with that and then pull that out. And at the end of the night, focus inward, do some journaling. Like I said, you can do some stretching or foam rolling or deep breathing or just enjoy an off line activity like we used to do in the olden days and try to come down a little bit and disconnect from the world so that you can drift off into restorative sleep, not having your brain running a million miles per hour.

Gabe Howard: When I am in a hotel, when I travel, I keep my phone next to me because it’s my alarm clock and every single time I get up to go to the bathroom, because that phone is sitting next to my bed, I check it. Now, fortunately, 90% of the time, there’s nothing on there. But 10% of the time there’s something, there’s something. And I’m up the rest of the night. And I think that people need to realize this. Now, what do you say to the people who are going to immediately fire back, well, I have to. I have to keep the phone next to my bed because I have teenage children who are out or my spouse works nights and might need to call. I am the emergency contact for my mother or of course, my personal favorite, it’s my alarm clock and there’s just no way around that.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, those are all very anxious responses, right? You know, oh, my God, what if this what if that. There are ways around that. They still make alarm clocks. 

Gabe Howard: Yeah.

Dr. Robert Duff: I have one. It’s really annoying. I have to put it on the other side of the room. So actually physically get up and walk over there. Otherwise, I’ll just turn over and hit it with my hand. So, you know.

Gabe Howard: We may be soulmates. I’ve just, yes, I do the exact same thing.

Dr. Robert Duff: I’ve always had to because my brain will create a scenario where there’s like a nuclear launch happening and I have to hit this button to stop it. And that’s the alarm clock. And so my brain will troll me and it just won’t work. So I have to actually physically get up. But, yeah, they make real alarm clocks, you know, and then in terms of the other concerns about what if there’s an emergency, et cetera, there’s a variety of ways around that. There are things like maybe you have your Apple Watch in the room if you have Apple products, but not your phone. Or you keep it outside the room, but you keep it on do not disturb and you can sort of have your specifications. So if somebody calls you, it’ll ring loudly. I mean, that’s outside the room, but you’ll still be able to hear it. There’s a variety of ways to do it. If you have teenage kids that are out for the night, maybe that’s the night you make an exception and you try to be responsible with it. As responsible as you can, not keep it right next to the bed. But that’s your kind of exception for the week and the rest of the week, you’re not going to have it in there. So you could do a lot with it. And those are usually just sort of knee-jerk reactions. I get that sort of knee-jerk reaction from people a lot, too, when I’m talking about setting limits on social media, even taking breaks from social media, things like this, they say, well, it’s my job. I need to be on it. There’s definitely usually a little more wiggle room than you think there as well.

Gabe Howard: I really feel like this all does boil down to making healthy choices and sticking to them and I really think this is a good analogy that people who say that they don’t have time to exercise and the people that say that they have to be on social media. But, of course, one of the things that you can do to exercise is park at the back of the parking lot and walk forward. You can take the steps instead of the elevator so you can turn off social media during dinner. 

Dr. Robert Duff: Right.

Gabe Howard: Do you believe that finding those tiny little things? Because in the grand scheme, those are small things. But it sounds like you’re saying those will pay big dividends when it comes to lessening our anxiety.

Dr. Robert Duff: I feel like just exercising control over it is a good practice, right? Intentionally putting it away sometimes, intentionally having it out sometimes. If you’re feeling that discomfort, much like if you walk out the door and you realize your phone Psych in your pocket, you get this sense of discomfort these days like, oh, God, something’s wrong. A lot of people feel that way. If they’re not able to immediately check their phone at dinner and they’re feeling a buzz in their pocket or whatever you have, that that sense of discomfort. So learning how to sort of modulate that and do it intentionally, you know, I’m going to put my phone away or I’m going to log off or not check these things for this period of time, at least gives you the flexibility to say, OK, sometimes I’m on, sometimes I’m off. And that’s a practice I think, that people need to need to do. You know, we have all these coping skills, mindfulness, you know, all these different things that that we use in the mental health field. I think that this is just simply another one of those things, sort of like technological flexibility or something. The ability to just decide when you’re on and when you’re off. And that’s a hard thing to do when the structure is designed to make you on all the time. But you need to wrest some control back from that. Otherwise you’re gonna be worn out.

Gabe Howard: I hear a lot of what you’re saying, and I completely agree with it, and I know that making more intentional decisions about our social media and about our use of technology will make us feel better. But do you think that there is a role in that when we’re staring at our phones? There’s often people in the room and those people are our friends, our families, our loved ones. And they maybe don’t feel so good about it. And they’re probably giving us pushback, whether straight up, put your phone down or passive aggressive, well, I’m not going to tell you. You care more about your phone or whatever. Do you think that keeping them happy also lowers your anxiety? And I know keeping them happy is kind of a weird way to say it, but in the beginning, I got a lot of negative pushback from my friends and family, which also made me more anxious. And when I got better control over my phone and social media use, a lot of that went away. Which, of course, made me less anxious.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think so. I mean, and also you’re making the assumption that the other person isn’t also on their phone. 

Gabe Howard: Sure.

Dr. Robert Duff: And then suddenly you are just both disconnected, sort of doing parallel life next to each other. Communication is something that is still really important, you know, and you could be communicating with people online. I think that’s valid. But you also need to communicate with people in person. And when couples are having trouble in my clinical practice, a lot of things sometimes I ask, do you guys eat dinner together? Like, do you sit across each other and eat dinner? And often the answer is no. We sit side by side or on our phones, whatever the case may be. And it’s like, OK, well, then you’re robbing yourself of the chance to practice communicating with one another and getting that support from one another. And yeah, I think that definitely accessing the supports that you have and then treating them well is it’s really important. That it’s a whole piece of the puzzle, along with all the other things you might do to help relieve your anxiety. So I definitely agree with you there.

Gabe Howard: I could talk to you about this all day because people seem to be more anxious than ever, people seem to be more disconnected than ever at a time that we should be more connected than ever. But the specific question that I want to ask you really involves a story with my grandfather. One morning, my grandfather comes downstairs, he is staying at my house, and he sees my wife and I sitting at the breakfast table and we’re both on our phones and and he says, oh, this is the problem with your generation. You’re staring at your phones. You’re not talking to one another. You know, in my day, we didn’t have this. We actually talked to each other. And for the rest of that day, I felt a little bad. I was like, oh, my God, this is my wife. I love her. And he’s right. I’m ignoring her. And then the next morning, I come downstairs and my grandmother and grandfather are sitting at the table and my grandfather’s reading the paper.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yep.

Gabe Howard: Yeah. And my grandmother is doing the crossword puzzle, completely ignoring each other.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, yeah.

Gabe Howard: And I said, oh, this is the problem with your generation, completely ignoring each other for newsprint. It seems like it’s very much the same thing. We’ve seen couples sit at the breakfast table ignoring each other since the beginning of time, but it does seem like technology is way more intrusive than the morning newspaper routine. Can you talk about that for moment? Because again, I think it’s one of those excuses. Oh, I’m on my phone, but my grandfather was on his newspaper.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, people have always found ways to sort of disconnect and go into their own world, and I don’t want to place a value judgment on any of this. If they’re happy. These things are only a problem when they’re a problem. Right? If you’re realizing that these things are creating a sense of disconnection in your relationship or creating a sense of anxiety or messing with your sleep, that’s what you need to do something about it. If not, and if you’re satisfied and happy, that’s fine. You know, certainly there are times where what my wife wants to do is sit next to me and be on her phone, not talk to me, because she wants me my presence. But she’s super introverted and just doesn’t want to people right then, you know?

Gabe Howard: I like that.

Dr. Robert Duff: And that’s OK. That’s OK. But when it crosses into interfering with things, that’s, I think, where you need to pay attention. And so this is just the next platform for that and things that you need to consider related to this platform. I do think that the intensity is higher. Right? You’re right. There’s a big difference between having a book or a crossword or newspaper, then having this endless stream of information. And the default is to have all these notifications on, which I don’t think you should have. Where it is just constantly pulling your attention out of the present moment. And I think that in addition to the relationship part, the sort of regular life part, I think that we need to reclaim our ability to do deep work and focus on something without being distracted by all these other things. And so that’s another part where I think that training, that skill of being a turn on and off really matters when you’re having a conversation with someone or when you’re writing a paper or when you’re working on some sort of brainstorming project, you should be able to start that and put the work in without having to be pulled away constantly by these other things. If you can’t do that and it’s kind of messing with your productivity or your relationship, that’s where you need to maybe take a close look at how these things are affecting you and what you can do about that.

Gabe Howard: Robert, thank you so very much. How do people find you, what’s your Web site? Where can they get your podcast? Where are your books? Let our listeners know exactly how to track you down.

Dr. Robert Duff: Sure. So my sort of online persona is it’s called Duff the Psych. So if, a good place to start is DuffthePsych.com/StartHere. That has sort of like my greatest hits. So it has, you know, information about my books, which are called The Hardcore Self Help books. I’ve one about anxiety, one about depression. It has some of my most popular podcast episodes, A TED talk that I did. All sorts of things like that. That’s sort of like a great starting place. And then if you want to reach out to me or connect on social media, I’m on basically all platforms @DuffthePsych.

Gabe Howard: Robert, thank you so much again for being here.

Dr. Robert Duff: Totally my pleasure. Thank you.

Gabe Howard: And listen up, listeners, here’s what I need you to do. Wherever you found this podcast, please subscribe and review it and use your words. Tell people why you like us. Share us on social media. And if you are a fan of social media, we have a super secret Facebook group that you can join. Just go to PsychCentral.com/FBShow. And remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counseling anytime, anywhere, simply by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We’ll see everybody next week.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to The Psych Central Podcast. Want your audience to be wowed at your next event? Feature an appearance and LIVE RECORDING of the Psych Central Podcast right from your stage! For more details, or to book an event, please email us at [email protected]. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/Show or on your favorite podcast player. Psych Central is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals. Overseen by Dr. John Grohol, Psych Central offers trusted resources and quizzes to help answer your questions about mental health, personality, psychotherapy, and more. Please visit us today at PsychCentral.com.  To learn more about our host, Gabe Howard, please visit his website at gabehoward.com. Thank you for listening and please share with your friends, family, and followers.

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Podcast: Do Cell Phones Cause Anxiety?

Do you constantly refresh your social media feed? Are you checking your notifications more often than you’d like to admit?  In today’s Psych Central Podcast, Gabe and psychologist Robert Duff have an enlightening discussion on how the information age has affected our mental health — but only if we let it. Dr. Duff explains how the overuse of social media is often driven by a fear of missing out and even a false sense of productivity.

So how can we work with the modern world rather than be controlled by it? Join us to hear specific tips on how to make social media the servant, not the master, of your reality.

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

  Guest information for ‘Robert Duff- Social Media Anxiety’ Podcast Episode

Robert Duff is a licensed clinical psychologist from Southern California. He is the author of the popular Hardcore Self Help book series and his most recent book, Does My Mom Have Dementia?. He also hosts a weekly podcast where he answers listener mental health questions and interviews interesting guests. When he’s not working as a neuropsychologist in private practice or creating content for his “Duff the Psych” persona, Robert can usually be found sharing a few glasses of wine with his wife or playing video games.

About The Psych Central Podcast Host

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. To learn more about Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Robert Duff- Social Media Anxiety’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Psych Central Podcast, where guest experts in the field of psychology and mental health share thought-provoking information using plain, everyday language. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Welcome to this week’s episode of The Psych Central Podcast. Calling into the show today, we have Dr. Robert Duff. Robert is a licensed clinical psychologist and is the author of the popular Hardcore Self Help book series. He’s also a fellow podcast, hosting the Hard Core Self Help Podcast, a weekly show where he answers listeners’ mental health questions and interviews interesting guests. Dr. Duff, welcome to the show.

Dr. Robert Duff: Thank you so much for having me.

Gabe Howard: Today, we’re going to discuss anxiety and the modern age and more specifically, how things like technology and social media impact our anxiety and stress levels. I think that most people don’t realize that our modern world is causing us stress in other ways than just work, relationships and children.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think at the very least, it’s different. I wouldn’t say better or worse, but certainly the Internet and definitely social media, I think, are kind of some of the biggest changes to society and the way that we interact since the industrial revolution or the printing press or something like that. So absolutely, it’s different.

Gabe Howard: It seems like if you read back through history, every new thing was going to be the end of the world. And I remember reading about the printing press and how the printing press was going to destroy the world as we know it. And it was fascinating to read because, of course, we all love the printing press. We think that the printing press is one of the greatest revolutions in the world. And yet at the time, it was very much maligned as being a bad thing. Which leads me to my question. Is that this. Are people just saying, oh, no, social media and technology is the downfall of the world and it’s sort of, you know, the sky is falling syndrome.

Dr. Robert Duff: I think that people can fall on either side of it. Sometimes people think that it’s a very, very, very negative thing. For me, I’m like, well, it doesn’t matter either way, it is what it is. And it’s sort of growing up in this period of time. I think that one of our major, for lack of a better term, developmental tasks is to figure out how to manage all this stuff, because there’s just a lot. The jump up from the printing press gives you access to information that you never had before. And this is that like times a gazillion. So there’s just a lot in knowing what to do with that, how to manage that. I think it’s a really, really, really important thing.

Gabe Howard: Social media is just the, it gets blamed for everything, it seems nowadays. What role does social media play in anxiety in 2020?

Dr. Robert Duff: There’s good and bad and neutral, you know, it is what it is. I think that one of the good things about it is that you have unprecedented access to connecting with people and finding resources. If you’re to go on Twitter say, and say, hey, I’m having extreme anxiety. Can somebody help me out? And a bunch of people are going to come and they’re going to send you resources. That’s how a lot of people find my books and stuff like that, for instance. So there’s, it’s a great way to connect with people. It’s a great way to find resources. It also, though, feeds into sort of the compulsive nature of anxiety. Anxiety, you tend to get this sense of unease like you want to know the answer. Whether that’s is the situation dangerous or what’s going on in the world or how does this person feel about me? You really, really, really want to know the answer to that. And social media gives you a way to either get those answers or at least fulfill some of that compulsive desire to do that. So, when you want to know what’s going on in the world, all you have to do is refresh your social feed. And you see the news there these days. A lot of people, myself included, don’t even turn on the TV or go to CNN.com when we want to get news.

Dr. Robert Duff: I just go to Twitter and see what’s trending. And that’s going to help me understand in the immediate right now sense what’s going on, which is a good thing and a bad thing. I always tell people your knowledge of what’s happening in this moment, especially if it’s something like a natural disaster, a shooting, a political event, things like that. Your knowledge of it does not change the fact that it’s happening at all. But there’s this, with how much information is available, there’s just this weird guilt that sort of sets in where if you don’t know what’s happening in that exact moment, you feel bad about that or disconnected somehow. And so, you know, by refreshing your feed, by checking those things, it relieves some of that. They release some of that tension, which is going to lead you to do that more and more and more. So it can become a thing that’s just so absent minded. You’re constantly either checking notifications, which is a whole different story, or just refreshing social feeds, trying to see what’s going on. And that can certainly play into anxiety, especially if it’s an issue that you already have.

Gabe Howard: It’s fascinating that you talked about refreshing the social feed to learn what’s going on, to release anxiety on one hand. I completely agree with you. I have done it. I have sat there on my phone when something a big event has happened. And I’ve just hit refresh, refresh, refresh, you know, going through like four different Web sites going on, like you said, Twitter or Facebook to see what other people are saying or what other people are posting. And in that moment, I feel less anxious because after all, I’m up to date.

Dr. Robert Duff: Right. Right.

Gabe Howard: But then again, I’m completely enmeshed in it.

Dr. Robert Duff: Right.

Gabe Howard: I’m not doing anything else. I’m not focused on anything else. I’m letting other things like work, family, friendships, joy go, because I’m just, I’m so engrossed in this story. And then I often learn, whether it be days, weeks or months later that some of the information I got was just false. There’s so much pressure to have the scoop that people say the police questioned Gabe Howard. He’s a suspect. And in the meantime, Gabe Howard was the Jimmy John’s delivery guy. And now the whole world believes that the poor Jimmy John’s delivery guy is involved. Which I imagine creates even more anxiety.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah.

Gabe Howard: How does that all flow together?

Dr. Robert Duff: The other thing to think about with this is how it doesn’t allow you to turn off with anxiety. A lot of people. Their brain is already going to be searching for signs of danger. Answers to things. It’s going to be sort of always on. And it’s an active effort to try to get that to slow down, to rest, to recuperate. Sustained anxiety over time is really exhausting. And then you integrate something like this where you’re getting the immediate information that’s constantly changing. So you have to keep up with it. I can recall just recently, somewhat recently, I live in the area of California that has all the wildfires, these really big fires that have happened. And one of them that was closest to us happened while my wife was asleep. But I was still awake and I had to really make the choice of, OK, do I wake her up and let her know what’s happening? Just because she needs to know with the knowledge that that’s going to keep her up all night because she’s going to be doing that refresh and continuing

Gabe Howard: Right.

Dr. Robert Duff: To look, continuing to get that. Or do I wait till there’s a need to know part of the information? Because really, for all practical purposes, it wasn’t affecting us yet at that point and the information was only going to be more solid later on. But you really, really, really, really want to know. And the anxiety is going to fuel that because it’s going to say, hey, I’m trying to keep you safe. The best thing you can do here is gather all this information, try to figure out every aspect of it, and then also avoid things that would actually make a difference or maybe make you involved somehow. So it definitely plays into it. But at the very least, I think we need to pay attention to how it affects us. And one of my biggest sort of takeaways for people is that you need to start building some self awareness about how social media plays out for you, for different people, it’s going to have a different level of impact. For me, it may not be quite as big as somebody like. Like I said, my wife, she’s somebody that openly struggles with anxiety. It has a big effect on her. And so knowing when to invite that in, when to not invite that in, I think that’s a skill that we all sort of need to build at this point.

Gabe Howard: I’m thinking of my own social media use, and I got sucked in by everything, I had the notifications on, so when something happened, there was a ding. I had the emails that came in. And this is the thing that I’m most ashamed of. I wanted to earn all of the badges. Social media does a really good job of telling you that you’re a top poster, you’re a top fan. You’ve made one

Dr. Robert Duff: Verified.

Gabe Howard: Update a day every day for 100 days or. Yeah. Verified is a big one. I wanted to earn, and I’m using that word earn. I wanted to earn them all. But I’ve since learned, as comes with, you know, maturity and age and better understanding that I wasn’t earning anything. It was a false reward. I think many people are stuck in this trap where they think they’re accomplishing something. But in reality, you’re not accomplishing anything.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, definitely. And the checking nature of social media with anxiety, you’re taking away that unease of not knowing what’s going on. But then on top of that, there’s also positive reinforcement. You’re getting hearts. You’re getting likes. You’re getting badges, you’re getting these things. And they are just quick little hits of essentially dopamine that are reinforcing you for that behavior. And it’s built that way. That’s why Facebook is such a huge monster that can charge so much for ads and make so much money because everything is just built on that. It’s like Vegas. You know, you have this positive reinforcement. You have the light, you have the ding, you have the money payout. You have all these things that kind of keep you going and keep you going. And so I think that’s definitely important to recognize that it’s designed to make you compulsive. That doesn’t mean it’s a terrible thing in and of itself. But just like when you walk into a store, you see all the ads and promotions and things like that, you’ve got to at least know that they’re trying to sell you and that’s going to at least help you take things with a grain of salt.

Gabe Howard: I do think that people understand that the stores, the televisions are trying to sell you. Do you think that people understand that Facebook and other social media sites are trying to sell you? Do you think that people understand that they are are consumer of these products? And do you think that that understanding or lack of understanding contributes to anxiety?

Dr. Robert Duff: That’s an interesting question. I think that one thing that Facebook and the social media platforms do really well as they get to know you, you give them permission to give them a lot of your information. And so things start to become very tailored to you. You know, you hear the stories about, oh, I was talking over dinner about getting a new vacuum. Suddenly I see ads for new vacuums. So, I mean, I think that people do know that they’re being sold to. However, it is worked in a very sort of contextual way where sometimes you don’t even notice it. But I have kind of mixed feelings about, I’m getting a little bit off topic with this. But the idea of sort of your social media feed becoming a bit of a bubble, that’s very tailored toward you. It depends on what you’re using it for. But for some people, maybe social media plays a great role in broadening your perspective for other people. I think there’s nothing necessarily wrong with controlling what you see there for ads or for different types of posts. You can block. You can say, I don’t want to see this type of content. You can sort of curate your social media feed to be something that works for you instead of against you. Somebody who has, say, depression. They might want to intentionally remove some of the things that are maybe a little bit more pessimistic. They may want to bring in things that are a lot more that’s sort of positive content. That’s going to help them at least have a tiny boost throughout their day that will inspire them. And I don’t think that there’s necessarily anything wrong with that. I think a lot of people feel like there is. So they feel like, oh, well, I can’t just, like, make myself in my own little bubble because then I’m not seeing what’s going on on the other side. It’s a tool. It’s a tool that you can use however you want to. But it’s something that you do have some degree of control over.

Gabe Howard: I know that you talk a lot about fake productivity or false productivity. It’s this idea where you think you’re accomplishing something but you’re not. Can you explain what fake productivity is?

Dr. Robert Duff: So for me, the way that I see this the most is with not necessarily social media, but like apps. There are gazillions of apps out there and they’re all trying to be the perfect tool for this thing, whether it’s a to do list or a calendar app or tracking your period or exercise, whatever it is. There’s a million options for each of those things. And one thing that a lot of people do is fall down this rabbit hole of searching for the perfect tool. Oh, this one doesn’t have this feature. OK. Let’s keep looking. OK. This one has a lot of great features, but not quite. This one was too expensive. And you keep going. Keep going, keep going. Keep going. And at the end of the day, whatever the tool is supposed to help you with, you did nothing related to that thing. You don’t have your to do list made. Your calendar isn’t updated. So you kind of spent a bunch of time going down this rabbit hole of trying to be sold on the perfect tool and didn’t actually do anything with it. And for people who have anxiety. So with anxiety, the thing I would say is that avoidance is the fuel of anxiety. Anxiety tells you to avoid something so that it can keep you safe. And then when you do avoid that thing, it gets bigger and more present. So you avoid more and more and more and then suddenly you’re having a really hard time. And I think that one sort of insidious thing that can happen is that we turn this search for the perfect tool into a form of avoidance. If you’re just planning and looking for the right thing and doing all this top level stuff, you don’t actually have to take action because action is scary. And so you can use that as a form of avoidance and just kind of keep doing this over and over again.

Gabe Howard: But you’re not actually achieving anything. And at some point you realize this. It really does seem like this self-fulfilling prophecy. I’m anxious because I’m productive. Now I’m anxious because I’m realizing I’m not productive. But I can be productive by doing what is effectively nothing. But if I don’t do it, I become anxious. But if I do do it, I become anxious. I just I’m having, like, a really hard time getting out of the feedback loop of what do I do so that I am productive, well-informed. And I don’t have this sudden fear that I don’t fit into society and that I’m just one of these curmudgeonly people on my porch saying social media is going to kill us all. This whole conversation is making me anxious because I honestly don’t know what to do.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I mean, that’s anxiety itself, though, right? Whether it’s social media or anything else, I think that the thing that the Internet does and social media does is provide like a big sort of magnifying glass or megaphone for those things that are already tendencies you have. The answer is really trying to build self-awareness of your patterns. Right. And especially understanding the way that your patterns interact with these new tools that are available. The best way I think to do that is talking with people, trusted loved ones, your therapist, whoever. Also journaling. That’s like a form of self therapy and sort of self monitoring. OK. Write down at the end of the day, what did I do today and how did it affect me? I spent six hours diving down this rabbit hole of trying to find the perfect tools and all my apps are set up pretty and all these things, but I haven’t done anything. And now I feel bad about that. And I feel anxious that I wasted time and I have less time tomorrow to do all these things, write those things out so you can at least understand your patterns and use that information to adjust your approach. I’m a big fan of using both online and offline things open in front of my face right now. I have an Evernote document with some notes from when you asked me questions beforehand for this interview, I’ll also have my Google Keep, which has like my whole to do list. But I’ve also got a stupid little index card in front of me. If I think of something and I don’t have time to get to the to do list, I’m just going to write it down there.

Gabe Howard: We’ll be right back after these messages.

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Gabe Howard: And we’re back discussing anxiety in the digital age with Dr. Robert Duff. I certainly don’t think that the solution here is to cancel all of your social media, never read the news, never get on email, never prepare. Like you talked about the extremes. How does one make sure that they’re staying in the middle? Because I imagine that that moderation, that middle, that average is where the least amount of anxiety comes in.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think a lot of it is about sort of setting limits for yourself and having some boundaries with yourself at this point. I think it’s really unrealistic to tell people to say, OK, you’re only allowed to do these actions at this time, like you’re only allowed to engage with social media at this time. That’s kind of pushing against a really strong beast, unless social media isn’t even a big thing for you. There’s plenty people out there with like, oh, well, I don’t have a Facebook it’s not a big deal, but insert whatever it is, checking email, checking the news, what have you. It’s easier, though, to block out times that are sacred, times that you’re not doing that. Actively disconnecting from the world. And I think that’s really important in terms of like especially things like sleep, being able to sleep and turn off for the night. Massively important when you’re dealing with mental health issues, both in terms of memory and learning the skills that you’re trying to work on and build and just giving enough energy to get back out there and fight a little bit of the uphill battle that you’ve been fighting. So I’m a big fan of sort of book ending the day is what I call it. So the beginning of the day, first half hour or so, last hour of the day, disconnecting from the world, putting the phone away. And I really am a big fan of not even having your phone in the bedroom because so many people, last thing they see before they close their eyes is their phone, email or social media feed.

Dr. Robert Duff: Then they close their eyes. If they wake up in the middle of the night, drink water, they’re going to be checking their social media feed again or their email. They wake up in the morning. What’s the first thing they see? They pull that out again. And really, I think that there are very, very, very few instances where that’s going to be a great thing. It could be neutral. It could not affect you very much. And there’s a pretty significant chance that it’s going to derail you. If you’re gonna see something that pisses you off, something that scares you, something that you forgot about for work or whatever, you know, the last thing you need is to wake up in the middle of the night and see a work email. OK, bye bye sleep. So I’m a big fan of in the morning, kind of taking some time before you even pull out your phone. Make yourself some coffee. Take a few deep breaths. Write some thoughts down if you have them. Do whatever you want to do with that and then pull that out. And at the end of the night, focus inward, do some journaling. Like I said, you can do some stretching or foam rolling or deep breathing or just enjoy an off line activity like we used to do in the olden days and try to come down a little bit and disconnect from the world so that you can drift off into restorative sleep, not having your brain running a million miles per hour.

Gabe Howard: When I am in a hotel, when I travel, I keep my phone next to me because it’s my alarm clock and every single time I get up to go to the bathroom, because that phone is sitting next to my bed, I check it. Now, fortunately, 90% of the time, there’s nothing on there. But 10% of the time there’s something, there’s something. And I’m up the rest of the night. And I think that people need to realize this. Now, what do you say to the people who are going to immediately fire back, well, I have to. I have to keep the phone next to my bed because I have teenage children who are out or my spouse works nights and might need to call. I am the emergency contact for my mother or of course, my personal favorite, it’s my alarm clock and there’s just no way around that.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, those are all very anxious responses, right? You know, oh, my God, what if this what if that. There are ways around that. They still make alarm clocks. 

Gabe Howard: Yeah.

Dr. Robert Duff: I have one. It’s really annoying. I have to put it on the other side of the room. So actually physically get up and walk over there. Otherwise, I’ll just turn over and hit it with my hand. So, you know.

Gabe Howard: We may be soulmates. I’ve just, yes, I do the exact same thing.

Dr. Robert Duff: I’ve always had to because my brain will create a scenario where there’s like a nuclear launch happening and I have to hit this button to stop it. And that’s the alarm clock. And so my brain will troll me and it just won’t work. So I have to actually physically get up. But, yeah, they make real alarm clocks, you know, and then in terms of the other concerns about what if there’s an emergency, et cetera, there’s a variety of ways around that. There are things like maybe you have your Apple Watch in the room if you have Apple products, but not your phone. Or you keep it outside the room, but you keep it on do not disturb and you can sort of have your specifications. So if somebody calls you, it’ll ring loudly. I mean, that’s outside the room, but you’ll still be able to hear it. There’s a variety of ways to do it. If you have teenage kids that are out for the night, maybe that’s the night you make an exception and you try to be responsible with it. As responsible as you can, not keep it right next to the bed. But that’s your kind of exception for the week and the rest of the week, you’re not going to have it in there. So you could do a lot with it. And those are usually just sort of knee-jerk reactions. I get that sort of knee-jerk reaction from people a lot, too, when I’m talking about setting limits on social media, even taking breaks from social media, things like this, they say, well, it’s my job. I need to be on it. There’s definitely usually a little more wiggle room than you think there as well.

Gabe Howard: I really feel like this all does boil down to making healthy choices and sticking to them and I really think this is a good analogy that people who say that they don’t have time to exercise and the people that say that they have to be on social media. But, of course, one of the things that you can do to exercise is park at the back of the parking lot and walk forward. You can take the steps instead of the elevator so you can turn off social media during dinner. 

Dr. Robert Duff: Right.

Gabe Howard: Do you believe that finding those tiny little things? Because in the grand scheme, those are small things. But it sounds like you’re saying those will pay big dividends when it comes to lessening our anxiety.

Dr. Robert Duff: I feel like just exercising control over it is a good practice, right? Intentionally putting it away sometimes, intentionally having it out sometimes. If you’re feeling that discomfort, much like if you walk out the door and you realize your phone Psych in your pocket, you get this sense of discomfort these days like, oh, God, something’s wrong. A lot of people feel that way. If they’re not able to immediately check their phone at dinner and they’re feeling a buzz in their pocket or whatever you have, that that sense of discomfort. So learning how to sort of modulate that and do it intentionally, you know, I’m going to put my phone away or I’m going to log off or not check these things for this period of time, at least gives you the flexibility to say, OK, sometimes I’m on, sometimes I’m off. And that’s a practice I think, that people need to need to do. You know, we have all these coping skills, mindfulness, you know, all these different things that that we use in the mental health field. I think that this is just simply another one of those things, sort of like technological flexibility or something. The ability to just decide when you’re on and when you’re off. And that’s a hard thing to do when the structure is designed to make you on all the time. But you need to wrest some control back from that. Otherwise you’re gonna be worn out.

Gabe Howard: I hear a lot of what you’re saying, and I completely agree with it, and I know that making more intentional decisions about our social media and about our use of technology will make us feel better. But do you think that there is a role in that when we’re staring at our phones? There’s often people in the room and those people are our friends, our families, our loved ones. And they maybe don’t feel so good about it. And they’re probably giving us pushback, whether straight up, put your phone down or passive aggressive, well, I’m not going to tell you. You care more about your phone or whatever. Do you think that keeping them happy also lowers your anxiety? And I know keeping them happy is kind of a weird way to say it, but in the beginning, I got a lot of negative pushback from my friends and family, which also made me more anxious. And when I got better control over my phone and social media use, a lot of that went away. Which, of course, made me less anxious.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think so. I mean, and also you’re making the assumption that the other person isn’t also on their phone. 

Gabe Howard: Sure.

Dr. Robert Duff: And then suddenly you are just both disconnected, sort of doing parallel life next to each other. Communication is something that is still really important, you know, and you could be communicating with people online. I think that’s valid. But you also need to communicate with people in person. And when couples are having trouble in my clinical practice, a lot of things sometimes I ask, do you guys eat dinner together? Like, do you sit across each other and eat dinner? And often the answer is no. We sit side by side or on our phones, whatever the case may be. And it’s like, OK, well, then you’re robbing yourself of the chance to practice communicating with one another and getting that support from one another. And yeah, I think that definitely accessing the supports that you have and then treating them well is it’s really important. That it’s a whole piece of the puzzle, along with all the other things you might do to help relieve your anxiety. So I definitely agree with you there.

Gabe Howard: I could talk to you about this all day because people seem to be more anxious than ever, people seem to be more disconnected than ever at a time that we should be more connected than ever. But the specific question that I want to ask you really involves a story with my grandfather. One morning, my grandfather comes downstairs, he is staying at my house, and he sees my wife and I sitting at the breakfast table and we’re both on our phones and and he says, oh, this is the problem with your generation. You’re staring at your phones. You’re not talking to one another. You know, in my day, we didn’t have this. We actually talked to each other. And for the rest of that day, I felt a little bad. I was like, oh, my God, this is my wife. I love her. And he’s right. I’m ignoring her. And then the next morning, I come downstairs and my grandmother and grandfather are sitting at the table and my grandfather’s reading the paper.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yep.

Gabe Howard: Yeah. And my grandmother is doing the crossword puzzle, completely ignoring each other.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, yeah.

Gabe Howard: And I said, oh, this is the problem with your generation, completely ignoring each other for newsprint. It seems like it’s very much the same thing. We’ve seen couples sit at the breakfast table ignoring each other since the beginning of time, but it does seem like technology is way more intrusive than the morning newspaper routine. Can you talk about that for moment? Because again, I think it’s one of those excuses. Oh, I’m on my phone, but my grandfather was on his newspaper.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, people have always found ways to sort of disconnect and go into their own world, and I don’t want to place a value judgment on any of this. If they’re happy. These things are only a problem when they’re a problem. Right? If you’re realizing that these things are creating a sense of disconnection in your relationship or creating a sense of anxiety or messing with your sleep, that’s what you need to do something about it. If not, and if you’re satisfied and happy, that’s fine. You know, certainly there are times where what my wife wants to do is sit next to me and be on her phone, not talk to me, because she wants me my presence. But she’s super introverted and just doesn’t want to people right then, you know?

Gabe Howard: I like that.

Dr. Robert Duff: And that’s OK. That’s OK. But when it crosses into interfering with things, that’s, I think, where you need to pay attention. And so this is just the next platform for that and things that you need to consider related to this platform. I do think that the intensity is higher. Right? You’re right. There’s a big difference between having a book or a crossword or newspaper, then having this endless stream of information. And the default is to have all these notifications on, which I don’t think you should have. Where it is just constantly pulling your attention out of the present moment. And I think that in addition to the relationship part, the sort of regular life part, I think that we need to reclaim our ability to do deep work and focus on something without being distracted by all these other things. And so that’s another part where I think that training, that skill of being a turn on and off really matters when you’re having a conversation with someone or when you’re writing a paper or when you’re working on some sort of brainstorming project, you should be able to start that and put the work in without having to be pulled away constantly by these other things. If you can’t do that and it’s kind of messing with your productivity or your relationship, that’s where you need to maybe take a close look at how these things are affecting you and what you can do about that.

Gabe Howard: Robert, thank you so very much. How do people find you, what’s your Web site? Where can they get your podcast? Where are your books? Let our listeners know exactly how to track you down.

Dr. Robert Duff: Sure. So my sort of online persona is it’s called Duff the Psych. So if, a good place to start is DuffthePsych.com/StartHere. That has sort of like my greatest hits. So it has, you know, information about my books, which are called The Hardcore Self Help books. I’ve one about anxiety, one about depression. It has some of my most popular podcast episodes, A TED talk that I did. All sorts of things like that. That’s sort of like a great starting place. And then if you want to reach out to me or connect on social media, I’m on basically all platforms @DuffthePsych.

Gabe Howard: Robert, thank you so much again for being here.

Dr. Robert Duff: Totally my pleasure. Thank you.

Gabe Howard: And listen up, listeners, here’s what I need you to do. Wherever you found this podcast, please subscribe and review it and use your words. Tell people why you like us. Share us on social media. And if you are a fan of social media, we have a super secret Facebook group that you can join. Just go to PsychCentral.com/FBShow. And remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counseling anytime, anywhere, simply by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We’ll see everybody next week.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to The Psych Central Podcast. Want your audience to be wowed at your next event? Feature an appearance and LIVE RECORDING of the Psych Central Podcast right from your stage! For more details, or to book an event, please email us at [email protected]. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/Show or on your favorite podcast player. Psych Central is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals. Overseen by Dr. John Grohol, Psych Central offers trusted resources and quizzes to help answer your questions about mental health, personality, psychotherapy, and more. Please visit us today at PsychCentral.com.  To learn more about our host, Gabe Howard, please visit his website at gabehoward.com. Thank you for listening and please share with your friends, family, and followers.

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Podcast: Do Cell Phones Cause Anxiety?

Do you constantly refresh your social media feed? Are you checking your notifications more often than you’d like to admit?  In today’s Psych Central Podcast, Gabe and psychologist Robert Duff have an enlightening discussion on how the information age has affected our mental health — but only if we let it. Dr. Duff explains how the overuse of social media is often driven by a fear of missing out and even a false sense of productivity.

So how can we work with the modern world rather than be controlled by it? Join us to hear specific tips on how to make social media the servant, not the master, of your reality.

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

  Guest information for ‘Robert Duff- Social Media Anxiety’ Podcast Episode

Robert Duff is a licensed clinical psychologist from Southern California. He is the author of the popular Hardcore Self Help book series and his most recent book, Does My Mom Have Dementia?. He also hosts a weekly podcast where he answers listener mental health questions and interviews interesting guests. When he’s not working as a neuropsychologist in private practice or creating content for his “Duff the Psych” persona, Robert can usually be found sharing a few glasses of wine with his wife or playing video games.

About The Psych Central Podcast Host

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. To learn more about Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Robert Duff- Social Media Anxiety’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Psych Central Podcast, where guest experts in the field of psychology and mental health share thought-provoking information using plain, everyday language. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Welcome to this week’s episode of The Psych Central Podcast. Calling into the show today, we have Dr. Robert Duff. Robert is a licensed clinical psychologist and is the author of the popular Hardcore Self Help book series. He’s also a fellow podcast, hosting the Hard Core Self Help Podcast, a weekly show where he answers listeners’ mental health questions and interviews interesting guests. Dr. Duff, welcome to the show.

Dr. Robert Duff: Thank you so much for having me.

Gabe Howard: Today, we’re going to discuss anxiety and the modern age and more specifically, how things like technology and social media impact our anxiety and stress levels. I think that most people don’t realize that our modern world is causing us stress in other ways than just work, relationships and children.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think at the very least, it’s different. I wouldn’t say better or worse, but certainly the Internet and definitely social media, I think, are kind of some of the biggest changes to society and the way that we interact since the industrial revolution or the printing press or something like that. So absolutely, it’s different.

Gabe Howard: It seems like if you read back through history, every new thing was going to be the end of the world. And I remember reading about the printing press and how the printing press was going to destroy the world as we know it. And it was fascinating to read because, of course, we all love the printing press. We think that the printing press is one of the greatest revolutions in the world. And yet at the time, it was very much maligned as being a bad thing. Which leads me to my question. Is that this. Are people just saying, oh, no, social media and technology is the downfall of the world and it’s sort of, you know, the sky is falling syndrome.

Dr. Robert Duff: I think that people can fall on either side of it. Sometimes people think that it’s a very, very, very negative thing. For me, I’m like, well, it doesn’t matter either way, it is what it is. And it’s sort of growing up in this period of time. I think that one of our major, for lack of a better term, developmental tasks is to figure out how to manage all this stuff, because there’s just a lot. The jump up from the printing press gives you access to information that you never had before. And this is that like times a gazillion. So there’s just a lot in knowing what to do with that, how to manage that. I think it’s a really, really, really important thing.

Gabe Howard: Social media is just the, it gets blamed for everything, it seems nowadays. What role does social media play in anxiety in 2020?

Dr. Robert Duff: There’s good and bad and neutral, you know, it is what it is. I think that one of the good things about it is that you have unprecedented access to connecting with people and finding resources. If you’re to go on Twitter say, and say, hey, I’m having extreme anxiety. Can somebody help me out? And a bunch of people are going to come and they’re going to send you resources. That’s how a lot of people find my books and stuff like that, for instance. So there’s, it’s a great way to connect with people. It’s a great way to find resources. It also, though, feeds into sort of the compulsive nature of anxiety. Anxiety, you tend to get this sense of unease like you want to know the answer. Whether that’s is the situation dangerous or what’s going on in the world or how does this person feel about me? You really, really, really want to know the answer to that. And social media gives you a way to either get those answers or at least fulfill some of that compulsive desire to do that. So, when you want to know what’s going on in the world, all you have to do is refresh your social feed. And you see the news there these days. A lot of people, myself included, don’t even turn on the TV or go to CNN.com when we want to get news.

Dr. Robert Duff: I just go to Twitter and see what’s trending. And that’s going to help me understand in the immediate right now sense what’s going on, which is a good thing and a bad thing. I always tell people your knowledge of what’s happening in this moment, especially if it’s something like a natural disaster, a shooting, a political event, things like that. Your knowledge of it does not change the fact that it’s happening at all. But there’s this, with how much information is available, there’s just this weird guilt that sort of sets in where if you don’t know what’s happening in that exact moment, you feel bad about that or disconnected somehow. And so, you know, by refreshing your feed, by checking those things, it relieves some of that. They release some of that tension, which is going to lead you to do that more and more and more. So it can become a thing that’s just so absent minded. You’re constantly either checking notifications, which is a whole different story, or just refreshing social feeds, trying to see what’s going on. And that can certainly play into anxiety, especially if it’s an issue that you already have.

Gabe Howard: It’s fascinating that you talked about refreshing the social feed to learn what’s going on, to release anxiety on one hand. I completely agree with you. I have done it. I have sat there on my phone when something a big event has happened. And I’ve just hit refresh, refresh, refresh, you know, going through like four different Web sites going on, like you said, Twitter or Facebook to see what other people are saying or what other people are posting. And in that moment, I feel less anxious because after all, I’m up to date.

Dr. Robert Duff: Right. Right.

Gabe Howard: But then again, I’m completely enmeshed in it.

Dr. Robert Duff: Right.

Gabe Howard: I’m not doing anything else. I’m not focused on anything else. I’m letting other things like work, family, friendships, joy go, because I’m just, I’m so engrossed in this story. And then I often learn, whether it be days, weeks or months later that some of the information I got was just false. There’s so much pressure to have the scoop that people say the police questioned Gabe Howard. He’s a suspect. And in the meantime, Gabe Howard was the Jimmy John’s delivery guy. And now the whole world believes that the poor Jimmy John’s delivery guy is involved. Which I imagine creates even more anxiety.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah.

Gabe Howard: How does that all flow together?

Dr. Robert Duff: The other thing to think about with this is how it doesn’t allow you to turn off with anxiety. A lot of people. Their brain is already going to be searching for signs of danger. Answers to things. It’s going to be sort of always on. And it’s an active effort to try to get that to slow down, to rest, to recuperate. Sustained anxiety over time is really exhausting. And then you integrate something like this where you’re getting the immediate information that’s constantly changing. So you have to keep up with it. I can recall just recently, somewhat recently, I live in the area of California that has all the wildfires, these really big fires that have happened. And one of them that was closest to us happened while my wife was asleep. But I was still awake and I had to really make the choice of, OK, do I wake her up and let her know what’s happening? Just because she needs to know with the knowledge that that’s going to keep her up all night because she’s going to be doing that refresh and continuing

Gabe Howard: Right.

Dr. Robert Duff: To look, continuing to get that. Or do I wait till there’s a need to know part of the information? Because really, for all practical purposes, it wasn’t affecting us yet at that point and the information was only going to be more solid later on. But you really, really, really, really want to know. And the anxiety is going to fuel that because it’s going to say, hey, I’m trying to keep you safe. The best thing you can do here is gather all this information, try to figure out every aspect of it, and then also avoid things that would actually make a difference or maybe make you involved somehow. So it definitely plays into it. But at the very least, I think we need to pay attention to how it affects us. And one of my biggest sort of takeaways for people is that you need to start building some self awareness about how social media plays out for you, for different people, it’s going to have a different level of impact. For me, it may not be quite as big as somebody like. Like I said, my wife, she’s somebody that openly struggles with anxiety. It has a big effect on her. And so knowing when to invite that in, when to not invite that in, I think that’s a skill that we all sort of need to build at this point.

Gabe Howard: I’m thinking of my own social media use, and I got sucked in by everything, I had the notifications on, so when something happened, there was a ding. I had the emails that came in. And this is the thing that I’m most ashamed of. I wanted to earn all of the badges. Social media does a really good job of telling you that you’re a top poster, you’re a top fan. You’ve made one

Dr. Robert Duff: Verified.

Gabe Howard: Update a day every day for 100 days or. Yeah. Verified is a big one. I wanted to earn, and I’m using that word earn. I wanted to earn them all. But I’ve since learned, as comes with, you know, maturity and age and better understanding that I wasn’t earning anything. It was a false reward. I think many people are stuck in this trap where they think they’re accomplishing something. But in reality, you’re not accomplishing anything.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, definitely. And the checking nature of social media with anxiety, you’re taking away that unease of not knowing what’s going on. But then on top of that, there’s also positive reinforcement. You’re getting hearts. You’re getting likes. You’re getting badges, you’re getting these things. And they are just quick little hits of essentially dopamine that are reinforcing you for that behavior. And it’s built that way. That’s why Facebook is such a huge monster that can charge so much for ads and make so much money because everything is just built on that. It’s like Vegas. You know, you have this positive reinforcement. You have the light, you have the ding, you have the money payout. You have all these things that kind of keep you going and keep you going. And so I think that’s definitely important to recognize that it’s designed to make you compulsive. That doesn’t mean it’s a terrible thing in and of itself. But just like when you walk into a store, you see all the ads and promotions and things like that, you’ve got to at least know that they’re trying to sell you and that’s going to at least help you take things with a grain of salt.

Gabe Howard: I do think that people understand that the stores, the televisions are trying to sell you. Do you think that people understand that Facebook and other social media sites are trying to sell you? Do you think that people understand that they are are consumer of these products? And do you think that that understanding or lack of understanding contributes to anxiety?

Dr. Robert Duff: That’s an interesting question. I think that one thing that Facebook and the social media platforms do really well as they get to know you, you give them permission to give them a lot of your information. And so things start to become very tailored to you. You know, you hear the stories about, oh, I was talking over dinner about getting a new vacuum. Suddenly I see ads for new vacuums. So, I mean, I think that people do know that they’re being sold to. However, it is worked in a very sort of contextual way where sometimes you don’t even notice it. But I have kind of mixed feelings about, I’m getting a little bit off topic with this. But the idea of sort of your social media feed becoming a bit of a bubble, that’s very tailored toward you. It depends on what you’re using it for. But for some people, maybe social media plays a great role in broadening your perspective for other people. I think there’s nothing necessarily wrong with controlling what you see there for ads or for different types of posts. You can block. You can say, I don’t want to see this type of content. You can sort of curate your social media feed to be something that works for you instead of against you. Somebody who has, say, depression. They might want to intentionally remove some of the things that are maybe a little bit more pessimistic. They may want to bring in things that are a lot more that’s sort of positive content. That’s going to help them at least have a tiny boost throughout their day that will inspire them. And I don’t think that there’s necessarily anything wrong with that. I think a lot of people feel like there is. So they feel like, oh, well, I can’t just, like, make myself in my own little bubble because then I’m not seeing what’s going on on the other side. It’s a tool. It’s a tool that you can use however you want to. But it’s something that you do have some degree of control over.

Gabe Howard: I know that you talk a lot about fake productivity or false productivity. It’s this idea where you think you’re accomplishing something but you’re not. Can you explain what fake productivity is?

Dr. Robert Duff: So for me, the way that I see this the most is with not necessarily social media, but like apps. There are gazillions of apps out there and they’re all trying to be the perfect tool for this thing, whether it’s a to do list or a calendar app or tracking your period or exercise, whatever it is. There’s a million options for each of those things. And one thing that a lot of people do is fall down this rabbit hole of searching for the perfect tool. Oh, this one doesn’t have this feature. OK. Let’s keep looking. OK. This one has a lot of great features, but not quite. This one was too expensive. And you keep going. Keep going, keep going. Keep going. And at the end of the day, whatever the tool is supposed to help you with, you did nothing related to that thing. You don’t have your to do list made. Your calendar isn’t updated. So you kind of spent a bunch of time going down this rabbit hole of trying to be sold on the perfect tool and didn’t actually do anything with it. And for people who have anxiety. So with anxiety, the thing I would say is that avoidance is the fuel of anxiety. Anxiety tells you to avoid something so that it can keep you safe. And then when you do avoid that thing, it gets bigger and more present. So you avoid more and more and more and then suddenly you’re having a really hard time. And I think that one sort of insidious thing that can happen is that we turn this search for the perfect tool into a form of avoidance. If you’re just planning and looking for the right thing and doing all this top level stuff, you don’t actually have to take action because action is scary. And so you can use that as a form of avoidance and just kind of keep doing this over and over again.

Gabe Howard: But you’re not actually achieving anything. And at some point you realize this. It really does seem like this self-fulfilling prophecy. I’m anxious because I’m productive. Now I’m anxious because I’m realizing I’m not productive. But I can be productive by doing what is effectively nothing. But if I don’t do it, I become anxious. But if I do do it, I become anxious. I just I’m having, like, a really hard time getting out of the feedback loop of what do I do so that I am productive, well-informed. And I don’t have this sudden fear that I don’t fit into society and that I’m just one of these curmudgeonly people on my porch saying social media is going to kill us all. This whole conversation is making me anxious because I honestly don’t know what to do.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I mean, that’s anxiety itself, though, right? Whether it’s social media or anything else, I think that the thing that the Internet does and social media does is provide like a big sort of magnifying glass or megaphone for those things that are already tendencies you have. The answer is really trying to build self-awareness of your patterns. Right. And especially understanding the way that your patterns interact with these new tools that are available. The best way I think to do that is talking with people, trusted loved ones, your therapist, whoever. Also journaling. That’s like a form of self therapy and sort of self monitoring. OK. Write down at the end of the day, what did I do today and how did it affect me? I spent six hours diving down this rabbit hole of trying to find the perfect tools and all my apps are set up pretty and all these things, but I haven’t done anything. And now I feel bad about that. And I feel anxious that I wasted time and I have less time tomorrow to do all these things, write those things out so you can at least understand your patterns and use that information to adjust your approach. I’m a big fan of using both online and offline things open in front of my face right now. I have an Evernote document with some notes from when you asked me questions beforehand for this interview, I’ll also have my Google Keep, which has like my whole to do list. But I’ve also got a stupid little index card in front of me. If I think of something and I don’t have time to get to the to do list, I’m just going to write it down there.

Gabe Howard: We’ll be right back after these messages.

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Gabe Howard: And we’re back discussing anxiety in the digital age with Dr. Robert Duff. I certainly don’t think that the solution here is to cancel all of your social media, never read the news, never get on email, never prepare. Like you talked about the extremes. How does one make sure that they’re staying in the middle? Because I imagine that that moderation, that middle, that average is where the least amount of anxiety comes in.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think a lot of it is about sort of setting limits for yourself and having some boundaries with yourself at this point. I think it’s really unrealistic to tell people to say, OK, you’re only allowed to do these actions at this time, like you’re only allowed to engage with social media at this time. That’s kind of pushing against a really strong beast, unless social media isn’t even a big thing for you. There’s plenty people out there with like, oh, well, I don’t have a Facebook it’s not a big deal, but insert whatever it is, checking email, checking the news, what have you. It’s easier, though, to block out times that are sacred, times that you’re not doing that. Actively disconnecting from the world. And I think that’s really important in terms of like especially things like sleep, being able to sleep and turn off for the night. Massively important when you’re dealing with mental health issues, both in terms of memory and learning the skills that you’re trying to work on and build and just giving enough energy to get back out there and fight a little bit of the uphill battle that you’ve been fighting. So I’m a big fan of sort of book ending the day is what I call it. So the beginning of the day, first half hour or so, last hour of the day, disconnecting from the world, putting the phone away. And I really am a big fan of not even having your phone in the bedroom because so many people, last thing they see before they close their eyes is their phone, email or social media feed.

Dr. Robert Duff: Then they close their eyes. If they wake up in the middle of the night, drink water, they’re going to be checking their social media feed again or their email. They wake up in the morning. What’s the first thing they see? They pull that out again. And really, I think that there are very, very, very few instances where that’s going to be a great thing. It could be neutral. It could not affect you very much. And there’s a pretty significant chance that it’s going to derail you. If you’re gonna see something that pisses you off, something that scares you, something that you forgot about for work or whatever, you know, the last thing you need is to wake up in the middle of the night and see a work email. OK, bye bye sleep. So I’m a big fan of in the morning, kind of taking some time before you even pull out your phone. Make yourself some coffee. Take a few deep breaths. Write some thoughts down if you have them. Do whatever you want to do with that and then pull that out. And at the end of the night, focus inward, do some journaling. Like I said, you can do some stretching or foam rolling or deep breathing or just enjoy an off line activity like we used to do in the olden days and try to come down a little bit and disconnect from the world so that you can drift off into restorative sleep, not having your brain running a million miles per hour.

Gabe Howard: When I am in a hotel, when I travel, I keep my phone next to me because it’s my alarm clock and every single time I get up to go to the bathroom, because that phone is sitting next to my bed, I check it. Now, fortunately, 90% of the time, there’s nothing on there. But 10% of the time there’s something, there’s something. And I’m up the rest of the night. And I think that people need to realize this. Now, what do you say to the people who are going to immediately fire back, well, I have to. I have to keep the phone next to my bed because I have teenage children who are out or my spouse works nights and might need to call. I am the emergency contact for my mother or of course, my personal favorite, it’s my alarm clock and there’s just no way around that.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, those are all very anxious responses, right? You know, oh, my God, what if this what if that. There are ways around that. They still make alarm clocks. 

Gabe Howard: Yeah.

Dr. Robert Duff: I have one. It’s really annoying. I have to put it on the other side of the room. So actually physically get up and walk over there. Otherwise, I’ll just turn over and hit it with my hand. So, you know.

Gabe Howard: We may be soulmates. I’ve just, yes, I do the exact same thing.

Dr. Robert Duff: I’ve always had to because my brain will create a scenario where there’s like a nuclear launch happening and I have to hit this button to stop it. And that’s the alarm clock. And so my brain will troll me and it just won’t work. So I have to actually physically get up. But, yeah, they make real alarm clocks, you know, and then in terms of the other concerns about what if there’s an emergency, et cetera, there’s a variety of ways around that. There are things like maybe you have your Apple Watch in the room if you have Apple products, but not your phone. Or you keep it outside the room, but you keep it on do not disturb and you can sort of have your specifications. So if somebody calls you, it’ll ring loudly. I mean, that’s outside the room, but you’ll still be able to hear it. There’s a variety of ways to do it. If you have teenage kids that are out for the night, maybe that’s the night you make an exception and you try to be responsible with it. As responsible as you can, not keep it right next to the bed. But that’s your kind of exception for the week and the rest of the week, you’re not going to have it in there. So you could do a lot with it. And those are usually just sort of knee-jerk reactions. I get that sort of knee-jerk reaction from people a lot, too, when I’m talking about setting limits on social media, even taking breaks from social media, things like this, they say, well, it’s my job. I need to be on it. There’s definitely usually a little more wiggle room than you think there as well.

Gabe Howard: I really feel like this all does boil down to making healthy choices and sticking to them and I really think this is a good analogy that people who say that they don’t have time to exercise and the people that say that they have to be on social media. But, of course, one of the things that you can do to exercise is park at the back of the parking lot and walk forward. You can take the steps instead of the elevator so you can turn off social media during dinner. 

Dr. Robert Duff: Right.

Gabe Howard: Do you believe that finding those tiny little things? Because in the grand scheme, those are small things. But it sounds like you’re saying those will pay big dividends when it comes to lessening our anxiety.

Dr. Robert Duff: I feel like just exercising control over it is a good practice, right? Intentionally putting it away sometimes, intentionally having it out sometimes. If you’re feeling that discomfort, much like if you walk out the door and you realize your phone Psych in your pocket, you get this sense of discomfort these days like, oh, God, something’s wrong. A lot of people feel that way. If they’re not able to immediately check their phone at dinner and they’re feeling a buzz in their pocket or whatever you have, that that sense of discomfort. So learning how to sort of modulate that and do it intentionally, you know, I’m going to put my phone away or I’m going to log off or not check these things for this period of time, at least gives you the flexibility to say, OK, sometimes I’m on, sometimes I’m off. And that’s a practice I think, that people need to need to do. You know, we have all these coping skills, mindfulness, you know, all these different things that that we use in the mental health field. I think that this is just simply another one of those things, sort of like technological flexibility or something. The ability to just decide when you’re on and when you’re off. And that’s a hard thing to do when the structure is designed to make you on all the time. But you need to wrest some control back from that. Otherwise you’re gonna be worn out.

Gabe Howard: I hear a lot of what you’re saying, and I completely agree with it, and I know that making more intentional decisions about our social media and about our use of technology will make us feel better. But do you think that there is a role in that when we’re staring at our phones? There’s often people in the room and those people are our friends, our families, our loved ones. And they maybe don’t feel so good about it. And they’re probably giving us pushback, whether straight up, put your phone down or passive aggressive, well, I’m not going to tell you. You care more about your phone or whatever. Do you think that keeping them happy also lowers your anxiety? And I know keeping them happy is kind of a weird way to say it, but in the beginning, I got a lot of negative pushback from my friends and family, which also made me more anxious. And when I got better control over my phone and social media use, a lot of that went away. Which, of course, made me less anxious.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think so. I mean, and also you’re making the assumption that the other person isn’t also on their phone. 

Gabe Howard: Sure.

Dr. Robert Duff: And then suddenly you are just both disconnected, sort of doing parallel life next to each other. Communication is something that is still really important, you know, and you could be communicating with people online. I think that’s valid. But you also need to communicate with people in person. And when couples are having trouble in my clinical practice, a lot of things sometimes I ask, do you guys eat dinner together? Like, do you sit across each other and eat dinner? And often the answer is no. We sit side by side or on our phones, whatever the case may be. And it’s like, OK, well, then you’re robbing yourself of the chance to practice communicating with one another and getting that support from one another. And yeah, I think that definitely accessing the supports that you have and then treating them well is it’s really important. That it’s a whole piece of the puzzle, along with all the other things you might do to help relieve your anxiety. So I definitely agree with you there.

Gabe Howard: I could talk to you about this all day because people seem to be more anxious than ever, people seem to be more disconnected than ever at a time that we should be more connected than ever. But the specific question that I want to ask you really involves a story with my grandfather. One morning, my grandfather comes downstairs, he is staying at my house, and he sees my wife and I sitting at the breakfast table and we’re both on our phones and and he says, oh, this is the problem with your generation. You’re staring at your phones. You’re not talking to one another. You know, in my day, we didn’t have this. We actually talked to each other. And for the rest of that day, I felt a little bad. I was like, oh, my God, this is my wife. I love her. And he’s right. I’m ignoring her. And then the next morning, I come downstairs and my grandmother and grandfather are sitting at the table and my grandfather’s reading the paper.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yep.

Gabe Howard: Yeah. And my grandmother is doing the crossword puzzle, completely ignoring each other.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, yeah.

Gabe Howard: And I said, oh, this is the problem with your generation, completely ignoring each other for newsprint. It seems like it’s very much the same thing. We’ve seen couples sit at the breakfast table ignoring each other since the beginning of time, but it does seem like technology is way more intrusive than the morning newspaper routine. Can you talk about that for moment? Because again, I think it’s one of those excuses. Oh, I’m on my phone, but my grandfather was on his newspaper.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, people have always found ways to sort of disconnect and go into their own world, and I don’t want to place a value judgment on any of this. If they’re happy. These things are only a problem when they’re a problem. Right? If you’re realizing that these things are creating a sense of disconnection in your relationship or creating a sense of anxiety or messing with your sleep, that’s what you need to do something about it. If not, and if you’re satisfied and happy, that’s fine. You know, certainly there are times where what my wife wants to do is sit next to me and be on her phone, not talk to me, because she wants me my presence. But she’s super introverted and just doesn’t want to people right then, you know?

Gabe Howard: I like that.

Dr. Robert Duff: And that’s OK. That’s OK. But when it crosses into interfering with things, that’s, I think, where you need to pay attention. And so this is just the next platform for that and things that you need to consider related to this platform. I do think that the intensity is higher. Right? You’re right. There’s a big difference between having a book or a crossword or newspaper, then having this endless stream of information. And the default is to have all these notifications on, which I don’t think you should have. Where it is just constantly pulling your attention out of the present moment. And I think that in addition to the relationship part, the sort of regular life part, I think that we need to reclaim our ability to do deep work and focus on something without being distracted by all these other things. And so that’s another part where I think that training, that skill of being a turn on and off really matters when you’re having a conversation with someone or when you’re writing a paper or when you’re working on some sort of brainstorming project, you should be able to start that and put the work in without having to be pulled away constantly by these other things. If you can’t do that and it’s kind of messing with your productivity or your relationship, that’s where you need to maybe take a close look at how these things are affecting you and what you can do about that.

Gabe Howard: Robert, thank you so very much. How do people find you, what’s your Web site? Where can they get your podcast? Where are your books? Let our listeners know exactly how to track you down.

Dr. Robert Duff: Sure. So my sort of online persona is it’s called Duff the Psych. So if, a good place to start is DuffthePsych.com/StartHere. That has sort of like my greatest hits. So it has, you know, information about my books, which are called The Hardcore Self Help books. I’ve one about anxiety, one about depression. It has some of my most popular podcast episodes, A TED talk that I did. All sorts of things like that. That’s sort of like a great starting place. And then if you want to reach out to me or connect on social media, I’m on basically all platforms @DuffthePsych.

Gabe Howard: Robert, thank you so much again for being here.

Dr. Robert Duff: Totally my pleasure. Thank you.

Gabe Howard: And listen up, listeners, here’s what I need you to do. Wherever you found this podcast, please subscribe and review it and use your words. Tell people why you like us. Share us on social media. And if you are a fan of social media, we have a super secret Facebook group that you can join. Just go to PsychCentral.com/FBShow. And remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counseling anytime, anywhere, simply by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We’ll see everybody next week.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to The Psych Central Podcast. Want your audience to be wowed at your next event? Feature an appearance and LIVE RECORDING of the Psych Central Podcast right from your stage! For more details, or to book an event, please email us at [email protected]. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/Show or on your favorite podcast player. Psych Central is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals. Overseen by Dr. John Grohol, Psych Central offers trusted resources and quizzes to help answer your questions about mental health, personality, psychotherapy, and more. Please visit us today at PsychCentral.com.  To learn more about our host, Gabe Howard, please visit his website at gabehoward.com. Thank you for listening and please share with your friends, family, and followers.

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Podcast: Do Cell Phones Cause Anxiety?

Do you constantly refresh your social media feed? Are you checking your notifications more often than you’d like to admit?  In today’s Psych Central Podcast, Gabe and psychologist Robert Duff have an enlightening discussion on how the information age has affected our mental health — but only if we let it. Dr. Duff explains how the overuse of social media is often driven by a fear of missing out and even a false sense of productivity.

So how can we work with the modern world rather than be controlled by it? Join us to hear specific tips on how to make social media the servant, not the master, of your reality.

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

  Guest information for ‘Robert Duff- Social Media Anxiety’ Podcast Episode

Robert Duff is a licensed clinical psychologist from Southern California. He is the author of the popular Hardcore Self Help book series and his most recent book, Does My Mom Have Dementia?. He also hosts a weekly podcast where he answers listener mental health questions and interviews interesting guests. When he’s not working as a neuropsychologist in private practice or creating content for his “Duff the Psych” persona, Robert can usually be found sharing a few glasses of wine with his wife or playing video games.

About The Psych Central Podcast Host

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. To learn more about Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Robert Duff- Social Media Anxiety’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Psych Central Podcast, where guest experts in the field of psychology and mental health share thought-provoking information using plain, everyday language. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Welcome to this week’s episode of The Psych Central Podcast. Calling into the show today, we have Dr. Robert Duff. Robert is a licensed clinical psychologist and is the author of the popular Hardcore Self Help book series. He’s also a fellow podcast, hosting the Hard Core Self Help Podcast, a weekly show where he answers listeners’ mental health questions and interviews interesting guests. Dr. Duff, welcome to the show.

Dr. Robert Duff: Thank you so much for having me.

Gabe Howard: Today, we’re going to discuss anxiety and the modern age and more specifically, how things like technology and social media impact our anxiety and stress levels. I think that most people don’t realize that our modern world is causing us stress in other ways than just work, relationships and children.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think at the very least, it’s different. I wouldn’t say better or worse, but certainly the Internet and definitely social media, I think, are kind of some of the biggest changes to society and the way that we interact since the industrial revolution or the printing press or something like that. So absolutely, it’s different.

Gabe Howard: It seems like if you read back through history, every new thing was going to be the end of the world. And I remember reading about the printing press and how the printing press was going to destroy the world as we know it. And it was fascinating to read because, of course, we all love the printing press. We think that the printing press is one of the greatest revolutions in the world. And yet at the time, it was very much maligned as being a bad thing. Which leads me to my question. Is that this. Are people just saying, oh, no, social media and technology is the downfall of the world and it’s sort of, you know, the sky is falling syndrome.

Dr. Robert Duff: I think that people can fall on either side of it. Sometimes people think that it’s a very, very, very negative thing. For me, I’m like, well, it doesn’t matter either way, it is what it is. And it’s sort of growing up in this period of time. I think that one of our major, for lack of a better term, developmental tasks is to figure out how to manage all this stuff, because there’s just a lot. The jump up from the printing press gives you access to information that you never had before. And this is that like times a gazillion. So there’s just a lot in knowing what to do with that, how to manage that. I think it’s a really, really, really important thing.

Gabe Howard: Social media is just the, it gets blamed for everything, it seems nowadays. What role does social media play in anxiety in 2020?

Dr. Robert Duff: There’s good and bad and neutral, you know, it is what it is. I think that one of the good things about it is that you have unprecedented access to connecting with people and finding resources. If you’re to go on Twitter say, and say, hey, I’m having extreme anxiety. Can somebody help me out? And a bunch of people are going to come and they’re going to send you resources. That’s how a lot of people find my books and stuff like that, for instance. So there’s, it’s a great way to connect with people. It’s a great way to find resources. It also, though, feeds into sort of the compulsive nature of anxiety. Anxiety, you tend to get this sense of unease like you want to know the answer. Whether that’s is the situation dangerous or what’s going on in the world or how does this person feel about me? You really, really, really want to know the answer to that. And social media gives you a way to either get those answers or at least fulfill some of that compulsive desire to do that. So, when you want to know what’s going on in the world, all you have to do is refresh your social feed. And you see the news there these days. A lot of people, myself included, don’t even turn on the TV or go to CNN.com when we want to get news.

Dr. Robert Duff: I just go to Twitter and see what’s trending. And that’s going to help me understand in the immediate right now sense what’s going on, which is a good thing and a bad thing. I always tell people your knowledge of what’s happening in this moment, especially if it’s something like a natural disaster, a shooting, a political event, things like that. Your knowledge of it does not change the fact that it’s happening at all. But there’s this, with how much information is available, there’s just this weird guilt that sort of sets in where if you don’t know what’s happening in that exact moment, you feel bad about that or disconnected somehow. And so, you know, by refreshing your feed, by checking those things, it relieves some of that. They release some of that tension, which is going to lead you to do that more and more and more. So it can become a thing that’s just so absent minded. You’re constantly either checking notifications, which is a whole different story, or just refreshing social feeds, trying to see what’s going on. And that can certainly play into anxiety, especially if it’s an issue that you already have.

Gabe Howard: It’s fascinating that you talked about refreshing the social feed to learn what’s going on, to release anxiety on one hand. I completely agree with you. I have done it. I have sat there on my phone when something a big event has happened. And I’ve just hit refresh, refresh, refresh, you know, going through like four different Web sites going on, like you said, Twitter or Facebook to see what other people are saying or what other people are posting. And in that moment, I feel less anxious because after all, I’m up to date.

Dr. Robert Duff: Right. Right.

Gabe Howard: But then again, I’m completely enmeshed in it.

Dr. Robert Duff: Right.

Gabe Howard: I’m not doing anything else. I’m not focused on anything else. I’m letting other things like work, family, friendships, joy go, because I’m just, I’m so engrossed in this story. And then I often learn, whether it be days, weeks or months later that some of the information I got was just false. There’s so much pressure to have the scoop that people say the police questioned Gabe Howard. He’s a suspect. And in the meantime, Gabe Howard was the Jimmy John’s delivery guy. And now the whole world believes that the poor Jimmy John’s delivery guy is involved. Which I imagine creates even more anxiety.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah.

Gabe Howard: How does that all flow together?

Dr. Robert Duff: The other thing to think about with this is how it doesn’t allow you to turn off with anxiety. A lot of people. Their brain is already going to be searching for signs of danger. Answers to things. It’s going to be sort of always on. And it’s an active effort to try to get that to slow down, to rest, to recuperate. Sustained anxiety over time is really exhausting. And then you integrate something like this where you’re getting the immediate information that’s constantly changing. So you have to keep up with it. I can recall just recently, somewhat recently, I live in the area of California that has all the wildfires, these really big fires that have happened. And one of them that was closest to us happened while my wife was asleep. But I was still awake and I had to really make the choice of, OK, do I wake her up and let her know what’s happening? Just because she needs to know with the knowledge that that’s going to keep her up all night because she’s going to be doing that refresh and continuing

Gabe Howard: Right.

Dr. Robert Duff: To look, continuing to get that. Or do I wait till there’s a need to know part of the information? Because really, for all practical purposes, it wasn’t affecting us yet at that point and the information was only going to be more solid later on. But you really, really, really, really want to know. And the anxiety is going to fuel that because it’s going to say, hey, I’m trying to keep you safe. The best thing you can do here is gather all this information, try to figure out every aspect of it, and then also avoid things that would actually make a difference or maybe make you involved somehow. So it definitely plays into it. But at the very least, I think we need to pay attention to how it affects us. And one of my biggest sort of takeaways for people is that you need to start building some self awareness about how social media plays out for you, for different people, it’s going to have a different level of impact. For me, it may not be quite as big as somebody like. Like I said, my wife, she’s somebody that openly struggles with anxiety. It has a big effect on her. And so knowing when to invite that in, when to not invite that in, I think that’s a skill that we all sort of need to build at this point.

Gabe Howard: I’m thinking of my own social media use, and I got sucked in by everything, I had the notifications on, so when something happened, there was a ding. I had the emails that came in. And this is the thing that I’m most ashamed of. I wanted to earn all of the badges. Social media does a really good job of telling you that you’re a top poster, you’re a top fan. You’ve made one

Dr. Robert Duff: Verified.

Gabe Howard: Update a day every day for 100 days or. Yeah. Verified is a big one. I wanted to earn, and I’m using that word earn. I wanted to earn them all. But I’ve since learned, as comes with, you know, maturity and age and better understanding that I wasn’t earning anything. It was a false reward. I think many people are stuck in this trap where they think they’re accomplishing something. But in reality, you’re not accomplishing anything.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, definitely. And the checking nature of social media with anxiety, you’re taking away that unease of not knowing what’s going on. But then on top of that, there’s also positive reinforcement. You’re getting hearts. You’re getting likes. You’re getting badges, you’re getting these things. And they are just quick little hits of essentially dopamine that are reinforcing you for that behavior. And it’s built that way. That’s why Facebook is such a huge monster that can charge so much for ads and make so much money because everything is just built on that. It’s like Vegas. You know, you have this positive reinforcement. You have the light, you have the ding, you have the money payout. You have all these things that kind of keep you going and keep you going. And so I think that’s definitely important to recognize that it’s designed to make you compulsive. That doesn’t mean it’s a terrible thing in and of itself. But just like when you walk into a store, you see all the ads and promotions and things like that, you’ve got to at least know that they’re trying to sell you and that’s going to at least help you take things with a grain of salt.

Gabe Howard: I do think that people understand that the stores, the televisions are trying to sell you. Do you think that people understand that Facebook and other social media sites are trying to sell you? Do you think that people understand that they are are consumer of these products? And do you think that that understanding or lack of understanding contributes to anxiety?

Dr. Robert Duff: That’s an interesting question. I think that one thing that Facebook and the social media platforms do really well as they get to know you, you give them permission to give them a lot of your information. And so things start to become very tailored to you. You know, you hear the stories about, oh, I was talking over dinner about getting a new vacuum. Suddenly I see ads for new vacuums. So, I mean, I think that people do know that they’re being sold to. However, it is worked in a very sort of contextual way where sometimes you don’t even notice it. But I have kind of mixed feelings about, I’m getting a little bit off topic with this. But the idea of sort of your social media feed becoming a bit of a bubble, that’s very tailored toward you. It depends on what you’re using it for. But for some people, maybe social media plays a great role in broadening your perspective for other people. I think there’s nothing necessarily wrong with controlling what you see there for ads or for different types of posts. You can block. You can say, I don’t want to see this type of content. You can sort of curate your social media feed to be something that works for you instead of against you. Somebody who has, say, depression. They might want to intentionally remove some of the things that are maybe a little bit more pessimistic. They may want to bring in things that are a lot more that’s sort of positive content. That’s going to help them at least have a tiny boost throughout their day that will inspire them. And I don’t think that there’s necessarily anything wrong with that. I think a lot of people feel like there is. So they feel like, oh, well, I can’t just, like, make myself in my own little bubble because then I’m not seeing what’s going on on the other side. It’s a tool. It’s a tool that you can use however you want to. But it’s something that you do have some degree of control over.

Gabe Howard: I know that you talk a lot about fake productivity or false productivity. It’s this idea where you think you’re accomplishing something but you’re not. Can you explain what fake productivity is?

Dr. Robert Duff: So for me, the way that I see this the most is with not necessarily social media, but like apps. There are gazillions of apps out there and they’re all trying to be the perfect tool for this thing, whether it’s a to do list or a calendar app or tracking your period or exercise, whatever it is. There’s a million options for each of those things. And one thing that a lot of people do is fall down this rabbit hole of searching for the perfect tool. Oh, this one doesn’t have this feature. OK. Let’s keep looking. OK. This one has a lot of great features, but not quite. This one was too expensive. And you keep going. Keep going, keep going. Keep going. And at the end of the day, whatever the tool is supposed to help you with, you did nothing related to that thing. You don’t have your to do list made. Your calendar isn’t updated. So you kind of spent a bunch of time going down this rabbit hole of trying to be sold on the perfect tool and didn’t actually do anything with it. And for people who have anxiety. So with anxiety, the thing I would say is that avoidance is the fuel of anxiety. Anxiety tells you to avoid something so that it can keep you safe. And then when you do avoid that thing, it gets bigger and more present. So you avoid more and more and more and then suddenly you’re having a really hard time. And I think that one sort of insidious thing that can happen is that we turn this search for the perfect tool into a form of avoidance. If you’re just planning and looking for the right thing and doing all this top level stuff, you don’t actually have to take action because action is scary. And so you can use that as a form of avoidance and just kind of keep doing this over and over again.

Gabe Howard: But you’re not actually achieving anything. And at some point you realize this. It really does seem like this self-fulfilling prophecy. I’m anxious because I’m productive. Now I’m anxious because I’m realizing I’m not productive. But I can be productive by doing what is effectively nothing. But if I don’t do it, I become anxious. But if I do do it, I become anxious. I just I’m having, like, a really hard time getting out of the feedback loop of what do I do so that I am productive, well-informed. And I don’t have this sudden fear that I don’t fit into society and that I’m just one of these curmudgeonly people on my porch saying social media is going to kill us all. This whole conversation is making me anxious because I honestly don’t know what to do.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I mean, that’s anxiety itself, though, right? Whether it’s social media or anything else, I think that the thing that the Internet does and social media does is provide like a big sort of magnifying glass or megaphone for those things that are already tendencies you have. The answer is really trying to build self-awareness of your patterns. Right. And especially understanding the way that your patterns interact with these new tools that are available. The best way I think to do that is talking with people, trusted loved ones, your therapist, whoever. Also journaling. That’s like a form of self therapy and sort of self monitoring. OK. Write down at the end of the day, what did I do today and how did it affect me? I spent six hours diving down this rabbit hole of trying to find the perfect tools and all my apps are set up pretty and all these things, but I haven’t done anything. And now I feel bad about that. And I feel anxious that I wasted time and I have less time tomorrow to do all these things, write those things out so you can at least understand your patterns and use that information to adjust your approach. I’m a big fan of using both online and offline things open in front of my face right now. I have an Evernote document with some notes from when you asked me questions beforehand for this interview, I’ll also have my Google Keep, which has like my whole to do list. But I’ve also got a stupid little index card in front of me. If I think of something and I don’t have time to get to the to do list, I’m just going to write it down there.

Gabe Howard: We’ll be right back after these messages.

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Gabe Howard: And we’re back discussing anxiety in the digital age with Dr. Robert Duff. I certainly don’t think that the solution here is to cancel all of your social media, never read the news, never get on email, never prepare. Like you talked about the extremes. How does one make sure that they’re staying in the middle? Because I imagine that that moderation, that middle, that average is where the least amount of anxiety comes in.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think a lot of it is about sort of setting limits for yourself and having some boundaries with yourself at this point. I think it’s really unrealistic to tell people to say, OK, you’re only allowed to do these actions at this time, like you’re only allowed to engage with social media at this time. That’s kind of pushing against a really strong beast, unless social media isn’t even a big thing for you. There’s plenty people out there with like, oh, well, I don’t have a Facebook it’s not a big deal, but insert whatever it is, checking email, checking the news, what have you. It’s easier, though, to block out times that are sacred, times that you’re not doing that. Actively disconnecting from the world. And I think that’s really important in terms of like especially things like sleep, being able to sleep and turn off for the night. Massively important when you’re dealing with mental health issues, both in terms of memory and learning the skills that you’re trying to work on and build and just giving enough energy to get back out there and fight a little bit of the uphill battle that you’ve been fighting. So I’m a big fan of sort of book ending the day is what I call it. So the beginning of the day, first half hour or so, last hour of the day, disconnecting from the world, putting the phone away. And I really am a big fan of not even having your phone in the bedroom because so many people, last thing they see before they close their eyes is their phone, email or social media feed.

Dr. Robert Duff: Then they close their eyes. If they wake up in the middle of the night, drink water, they’re going to be checking their social media feed again or their email. They wake up in the morning. What’s the first thing they see? They pull that out again. And really, I think that there are very, very, very few instances where that’s going to be a great thing. It could be neutral. It could not affect you very much. And there’s a pretty significant chance that it’s going to derail you. If you’re gonna see something that pisses you off, something that scares you, something that you forgot about for work or whatever, you know, the last thing you need is to wake up in the middle of the night and see a work email. OK, bye bye sleep. So I’m a big fan of in the morning, kind of taking some time before you even pull out your phone. Make yourself some coffee. Take a few deep breaths. Write some thoughts down if you have them. Do whatever you want to do with that and then pull that out. And at the end of the night, focus inward, do some journaling. Like I said, you can do some stretching or foam rolling or deep breathing or just enjoy an off line activity like we used to do in the olden days and try to come down a little bit and disconnect from the world so that you can drift off into restorative sleep, not having your brain running a million miles per hour.

Gabe Howard: When I am in a hotel, when I travel, I keep my phone next to me because it’s my alarm clock and every single time I get up to go to the bathroom, because that phone is sitting next to my bed, I check it. Now, fortunately, 90% of the time, there’s nothing on there. But 10% of the time there’s something, there’s something. And I’m up the rest of the night. And I think that people need to realize this. Now, what do you say to the people who are going to immediately fire back, well, I have to. I have to keep the phone next to my bed because I have teenage children who are out or my spouse works nights and might need to call. I am the emergency contact for my mother or of course, my personal favorite, it’s my alarm clock and there’s just no way around that.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, those are all very anxious responses, right? You know, oh, my God, what if this what if that. There are ways around that. They still make alarm clocks. 

Gabe Howard: Yeah.

Dr. Robert Duff: I have one. It’s really annoying. I have to put it on the other side of the room. So actually physically get up and walk over there. Otherwise, I’ll just turn over and hit it with my hand. So, you know.

Gabe Howard: We may be soulmates. I’ve just, yes, I do the exact same thing.

Dr. Robert Duff: I’ve always had to because my brain will create a scenario where there’s like a nuclear launch happening and I have to hit this button to stop it. And that’s the alarm clock. And so my brain will troll me and it just won’t work. So I have to actually physically get up. But, yeah, they make real alarm clocks, you know, and then in terms of the other concerns about what if there’s an emergency, et cetera, there’s a variety of ways around that. There are things like maybe you have your Apple Watch in the room if you have Apple products, but not your phone. Or you keep it outside the room, but you keep it on do not disturb and you can sort of have your specifications. So if somebody calls you, it’ll ring loudly. I mean, that’s outside the room, but you’ll still be able to hear it. There’s a variety of ways to do it. If you have teenage kids that are out for the night, maybe that’s the night you make an exception and you try to be responsible with it. As responsible as you can, not keep it right next to the bed. But that’s your kind of exception for the week and the rest of the week, you’re not going to have it in there. So you could do a lot with it. And those are usually just sort of knee-jerk reactions. I get that sort of knee-jerk reaction from people a lot, too, when I’m talking about setting limits on social media, even taking breaks from social media, things like this, they say, well, it’s my job. I need to be on it. There’s definitely usually a little more wiggle room than you think there as well.

Gabe Howard: I really feel like this all does boil down to making healthy choices and sticking to them and I really think this is a good analogy that people who say that they don’t have time to exercise and the people that say that they have to be on social media. But, of course, one of the things that you can do to exercise is park at the back of the parking lot and walk forward. You can take the steps instead of the elevator so you can turn off social media during dinner. 

Dr. Robert Duff: Right.

Gabe Howard: Do you believe that finding those tiny little things? Because in the grand scheme, those are small things. But it sounds like you’re saying those will pay big dividends when it comes to lessening our anxiety.

Dr. Robert Duff: I feel like just exercising control over it is a good practice, right? Intentionally putting it away sometimes, intentionally having it out sometimes. If you’re feeling that discomfort, much like if you walk out the door and you realize your phone Psych in your pocket, you get this sense of discomfort these days like, oh, God, something’s wrong. A lot of people feel that way. If they’re not able to immediately check their phone at dinner and they’re feeling a buzz in their pocket or whatever you have, that that sense of discomfort. So learning how to sort of modulate that and do it intentionally, you know, I’m going to put my phone away or I’m going to log off or not check these things for this period of time, at least gives you the flexibility to say, OK, sometimes I’m on, sometimes I’m off. And that’s a practice I think, that people need to need to do. You know, we have all these coping skills, mindfulness, you know, all these different things that that we use in the mental health field. I think that this is just simply another one of those things, sort of like technological flexibility or something. The ability to just decide when you’re on and when you’re off. And that’s a hard thing to do when the structure is designed to make you on all the time. But you need to wrest some control back from that. Otherwise you’re gonna be worn out.

Gabe Howard: I hear a lot of what you’re saying, and I completely agree with it, and I know that making more intentional decisions about our social media and about our use of technology will make us feel better. But do you think that there is a role in that when we’re staring at our phones? There’s often people in the room and those people are our friends, our families, our loved ones. And they maybe don’t feel so good about it. And they’re probably giving us pushback, whether straight up, put your phone down or passive aggressive, well, I’m not going to tell you. You care more about your phone or whatever. Do you think that keeping them happy also lowers your anxiety? And I know keeping them happy is kind of a weird way to say it, but in the beginning, I got a lot of negative pushback from my friends and family, which also made me more anxious. And when I got better control over my phone and social media use, a lot of that went away. Which, of course, made me less anxious.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, I think so. I mean, and also you’re making the assumption that the other person isn’t also on their phone. 

Gabe Howard: Sure.

Dr. Robert Duff: And then suddenly you are just both disconnected, sort of doing parallel life next to each other. Communication is something that is still really important, you know, and you could be communicating with people online. I think that’s valid. But you also need to communicate with people in person. And when couples are having trouble in my clinical practice, a lot of things sometimes I ask, do you guys eat dinner together? Like, do you sit across each other and eat dinner? And often the answer is no. We sit side by side or on our phones, whatever the case may be. And it’s like, OK, well, then you’re robbing yourself of the chance to practice communicating with one another and getting that support from one another. And yeah, I think that definitely accessing the supports that you have and then treating them well is it’s really important. That it’s a whole piece of the puzzle, along with all the other things you might do to help relieve your anxiety. So I definitely agree with you there.

Gabe Howard: I could talk to you about this all day because people seem to be more anxious than ever, people seem to be more disconnected than ever at a time that we should be more connected than ever. But the specific question that I want to ask you really involves a story with my grandfather. One morning, my grandfather comes downstairs, he is staying at my house, and he sees my wife and I sitting at the breakfast table and we’re both on our phones and and he says, oh, this is the problem with your generation. You’re staring at your phones. You’re not talking to one another. You know, in my day, we didn’t have this. We actually talked to each other. And for the rest of that day, I felt a little bad. I was like, oh, my God, this is my wife. I love her. And he’s right. I’m ignoring her. And then the next morning, I come downstairs and my grandmother and grandfather are sitting at the table and my grandfather’s reading the paper.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yep.

Gabe Howard: Yeah. And my grandmother is doing the crossword puzzle, completely ignoring each other.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, yeah.

Gabe Howard: And I said, oh, this is the problem with your generation, completely ignoring each other for newsprint. It seems like it’s very much the same thing. We’ve seen couples sit at the breakfast table ignoring each other since the beginning of time, but it does seem like technology is way more intrusive than the morning newspaper routine. Can you talk about that for moment? Because again, I think it’s one of those excuses. Oh, I’m on my phone, but my grandfather was on his newspaper.

Dr. Robert Duff: Yeah, people have always found ways to sort of disconnect and go into their own world, and I don’t want to place a value judgment on any of this. If they’re happy. These things are only a problem when they’re a problem. Right? If you’re realizing that these things are creating a sense of disconnection in your relationship or creating a sense of anxiety or messing with your sleep, that’s what you need to do something about it. If not, and if you’re satisfied and happy, that’s fine. You know, certainly there are times where what my wife wants to do is sit next to me and be on her phone, not talk to me, because she wants me my presence. But she’s super introverted and just doesn’t want to people right then, you know?

Gabe Howard: I like that.

Dr. Robert Duff: And that’s OK. That’s OK. But when it crosses into interfering with things, that’s, I think, where you need to pay attention. And so this is just the next platform for that and things that you need to consider related to this platform. I do think that the intensity is higher. Right? You’re right. There’s a big difference between having a book or a crossword or newspaper, then having this endless stream of information. And the default is to have all these notifications on, which I don’t think you should have. Where it is just constantly pulling your attention out of the present moment. And I think that in addition to the relationship part, the sort of regular life part, I think that we need to reclaim our ability to do deep work and focus on something without being distracted by all these other things. And so that’s another part where I think that training, that skill of being a turn on and off really matters when you’re having a conversation with someone or when you’re writing a paper or when you’re working on some sort of brainstorming project, you should be able to start that and put the work in without having to be pulled away constantly by these other things. If you can’t do that and it’s kind of messing with your productivity or your relationship, that’s where you need to maybe take a close look at how these things are affecting you and what you can do about that.

Gabe Howard: Robert, thank you so very much. How do people find you, what’s your Web site? Where can they get your podcast? Where are your books? Let our listeners know exactly how to track you down.

Dr. Robert Duff: Sure. So my sort of online persona is it’s called Duff the Psych. So if, a good place to start is DuffthePsych.com/StartHere. That has sort of like my greatest hits. So it has, you know, information about my books, which are called The Hardcore Self Help books. I’ve one about anxiety, one about depression. It has some of my most popular podcast episodes, A TED talk that I did. All sorts of things like that. That’s sort of like a great starting place. And then if you want to reach out to me or connect on social media, I’m on basically all platforms @DuffthePsych.

Gabe Howard: Robert, thank you so much again for being here.

Dr. Robert Duff: Totally my pleasure. Thank you.

Gabe Howard: And listen up, listeners, here’s what I need you to do. Wherever you found this podcast, please subscribe and review it and use your words. Tell people why you like us. Share us on social media. And if you are a fan of social media, we have a super secret Facebook group that you can join. Just go to PsychCentral.com/FBShow. And remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counseling anytime, anywhere, simply by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We’ll see everybody next week.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to The Psych Central Podcast. Want your audience to be wowed at your next event? Feature an appearance and LIVE RECORDING of the Psych Central Podcast right from your stage! For more details, or to book an event, please email us at [email protected]. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/Show or on your favorite podcast player. Psych Central is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals. Overseen by Dr. John Grohol, Psych Central offers trusted resources and quizzes to help answer your questions about mental health, personality, psychotherapy, and more. Please visit us today at PsychCentral.com.  To learn more about our host, Gabe Howard, please visit his website at gabehoward.com. Thank you for listening and please share with your friends, family, and followers.

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Podcast: Support Groups for Mental Illness – What are They?

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Podcast: Support Groups for Mental Illness – What are They?

Most people understand how doctors and therapists run, but many people can’t quite wrap their intellects around support groups- especially peer-led ones. In this episode, our hosts dissect different types of support groups to make them better understood and more accessible. Listen Now!

SUBSCRIBE& REVIEW

“[ Mental Illness] Support groups are like a buffet — take what you want and leave the rest.”- Gabe Howard

Highlights From’ Mental Illness Support Groups’ Episode

[ 1:00] Lets talk about support groups.

[ 3:00] Fountain House in NYC is awesome!

[ 6:00] Why it’s great to be around like-minded people.

[8: 00] Support groups in hospitals.

[ 12:00] Peer-run support groups, hints and tips.

[ 18:00] Gabe became a support group facilitator — what does that mean?

[ 25:00] Sometimes people come to support groups only to listen.

[ 26:00] Gabe and Michelle recommend support groups to listen and share.

[ 28:00] Don’t like your support group? You can find another!

Computer Generated Transcript for’ Support Groups for Mental Illness- What are They ?’ Show

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar faults. Thank you.

Narrator:[ 00:00: 09] For reasons that utterly escapes Everyone involved. You’re listening to A Bipolar, A Schizophrenic and A Podcast. Here are your hosts, Gabe Howard and Michelle Hammer. Thank you for tuning into A Bipolar, A Schizophrenic and A Podcast.

Gabe:[ 00:00: 22] I’m Gabe, I have bipolar.

Michelle:[ 00:00: 24] Hi I’m Michelle I’m schizophrenic.

Gabe:[ 00:00: 26] And today we’re going to try to give some helpful information and perhaps demystify things like support groups peer support groups support groups read by medical personnel like social workers or physicians kind of talk about our experiences we’ve heard from others and just try to tie it up at a nice little bow. For those of you who are sitting there reasoning Should I go to the working group support group and what’s it going to be like and huh.

Michelle:[ 00:00: 57] You’ve been to a a lot of support groups right Gabe?

Gabe:[ 00:00: 59] I personally love support groups. I’ve been to all forms I’ve been to the ones led by a psychologist. I’ve been to ones led by social workers. I’ve been to ones led by peer supporters. Yeah, I am a I’m a big big disciple and I go to a drop-in center which is run by people with mental illness and addiction for people with mental illness and addiction to drop in. So, it’s not exactly a support group but it’s still a group setting for people with mental illness and or addiction to kind of chill.

Michelle:[ 00:01: 34] Yeah I do that too when I go to Fountain House in New York City. It’s kind of just like a clubhouse for people with mental illness and it’s not necessarily group therapy but you’re around like-minded people and you are able to have really good conversations and there’s really just no judgment there.

Michelle:[ 00:01: 49] And it’s a really nice place to be around.

Gabe:[ 00:01: 53] You sort of feel comfortable there because it’s set up for people like you and me.

Michelle:[ 00:01: 59] It’s more like you’re not being judged. You feel no judgment in a support group. Everybody’s likeminded. Nobody’s thinking bad things about anything you say. You only have just a normal dialogue and perhaps you think somebody said something weird but then you’re like you know what I’m at this support group to what may maybe something I say somebody else thinks is weird but it’s okay cause we’re all talking to each other openly.

Gabe:[ 00:02: 25] Let’s take this in segments so the section number 1 we’re going to talk about customer operated services or peer run organisations drop in centers clubhouses like Fountain House where you go in New York City the Peer Center where I go in Columbus, Ohio and there’s there’s hundreds and hundreds of these models across the United States.

Gabe:[ 00:02: 43] So let’s do that first. You go to probably one of the most famous drop in centers in the country. You’re really super lucky to live in New York City because fountain House has all kinds of services don’t you like a rooftop garden.

Michelle:[ 00:03: 01] There might be a rooftop garden I don’t know if I’d been there but I am in the horticulture unit where they do all the planting and all that various kinds of stuff and sometimes I do help with the planting but a lot of times I just go there with my computer and I do my work there because I like to be surrounded by people that I can talk to as I’m doing my work. It’s just friendly. It’s nice it’s pacifying. I entail I could go to a Starbucks but that’s boring. Why not go to Fountain House chit chat with a bunch of fun people while I do my work.

Gabe:[ 00:03: 32] You know the Peer Center where I go doesn’t have a garden. I mean we don’t we don’t have a garden and to call it a horticultural division. That that that severely really bad ass. But let’s talk about that for a moment because you know some people hearing this, they’re like wait a minute what does a garden have to do with mental health. And I’ll tell you this is probably my favorite thing to explain to people because at the Peer Center people come in and like oh you have mental illness and you have addiction issues and you’re playing cards. How does playing cards assistance? How does gardening help?

Gabe:[ 00:04: 09] And here’s what I say. Are you ready for this?

Michelle:[ 00:04: 11] I’m ready.

Gabe:[ 00:04: 12] When you sit down with a group of likeminded people to play cards “i m talking” and this whole game of spades or Uno or whatever game you choose to play that’s just kind of the distraction. Well you’re actually doing is talking about the things that are bothering you just like everybody else who plays cards you talk about your week. You talk about your grandkids you talk about your grandparents if you’re young you simply you’re playing cards against humanity you feel bad. But in the best of ways. But these are very social activities. So, while you’re doing these social things you’re talking about the things that are that are eating you inside or you’re bragging about the things that you’re proud of to other likeminded people. Now nobody leaves a Fountain House or the Peer Center or any drop-in centre and says Hey I said that I was 35 days sober and I was really proud of myself and everybody said they were proud of me too. No, they say I played cards but we know that you can play cards anywhere you ran for that reassurance from. From people who are like you and understand. And that’s really the sorcery of these places.

Michelle:[ 00:05: 18] It is the magical of these places. People find it interesting that I have friends that are so much older than me. I go to Fountain House. One of my best friends there she’s 56. Like people your friends a 56 -year-old woman. No, she’s a really awesome person. She has great things to say. I love speaking to her. Why is it judgment. Is it stigma that she’s 56? What’s the big deal that she’s 56? We have likeminded mental capacity with mental illness and we just talk about regular things. Age doesn’t even make a difference there.

Gabe:[ 00:05: 52] It is hard to find people. Probably because of the stigma that understand what we’re going through. You know I live their lives bipolar disorder and as you know people with bipolar disorder except for like my people we aren’t wearing shirts that say bipolar so people with schizophrenia people with depression we tend not to advertise it. So, it’s really easy to feel alone. But when you go to a drop-in centre you go to a place like this you can sit around other people who also admit to living with mental illness and you can have real dialogues about it. Listen Michelle and I we didn’t meet in a drop-in centre but we could have you and I could have met in a drop-in center.

Michelle:[ 00:06: 28] Oh definitely.

Gabe:[ 00:06: 29] Yeah. We could’ve just been sitting there like Hey I take meds and it causes sex side effects and my mouth is dry and you would’ve been like Oh my God.

Gabe:[ 00:06: 36] Me too. And we could have just had this great conversation about how sometimes our drug pisses us off and when we left, we would’ve felt better because I would’ve been like oh my god I guessed I was the only one. And you would have been like wow at the least I’m not pitiful like that guy.

Gabe:[ 00:06: 50] And the whole thing just drives forward that’s the magical of having a place where we belong and everybody has this. You want to play basketball you go to a gym. If you’re fat you join a gym.

Michelle:[ 00:07: 03] Or you feed a bunch of Oreos.

Gabe:[ 00:07: 05] I love Oreos.

Gabe:[ 00:07: 07] All I’m saying is.

Michelle:[ 00:07: 08] It’s a place of acceptance.

Gabe:[ 00:07: 10] It is a place of adoption and everybody has this in society. Everybody has this. There are all kinds of clubs and social events. There’s a whole website called meetup.

Gabe:[ 00:07: 21] We’re likeminded people can.

Michelle:[ 00:07: 22] Meetup. That’s how I discovered Mike post collegiate lacrosse team was meetup.com.

Gabe:[ 00:07: 27] There you go. So, we like to be around people who understand us. We like to feel understood and that that’s not a mental disease thing. That’s not an addiction thing. That’s a human thing. And that’s why drop in centers consumer operated services peer operate organisations the clubhouse model. That’s why all of these things are fantastic. But that sort of results us into support groups because support groups are, they’re not the clubhouse model because you know clubhouse drop in centres et cetera.

Gabe:[ 00:07: 54] They’re open like for periods of hour you know they’re open for like you know morning to night etc. whereas a support group especially a Community Support Group is usually like an hour to an hour and a half maybe once or twice a week. So very different vibe.

Michelle:[ 00:08: 10] I would agree with that. Yes.

Gabe:[ 00:08: 12] And there’s two types of those groups. Well there’s probably more than two types but two types that we’re going to talk about here. There’s pure operate support group which means a person with mental illness running a support group for other people with mental illness or in the case of like Alcoholics Anonymous recovered alcoholics operating a support group for people who are trying to recover or in recovery from alcoholism. So that’s the peer operate model.

Gabe:[ 00:08: 35] And then there’s the more you know medical model it’s run by a social worker or psychologist or you know someone with some sort of training and they both have their pluses and minuses. One is not better than the other. They both have their pluses minuses now Michelle you went to more than a few if I’m not mistaken.

Michelle:[ 00:08: 53] A support group?

Gabe:[ 00:08: 54] Yes support group that was led by a doctor or a social worker.

Michelle:[ 00:08: 59] Well the first kind of support group I’ve really went to was when I was in a psych ward and it was just various kinds of run by a nurse and we would just go around talking and something that I got out of it that I didn’t even really follow was. Do you journal you should maintain a publication and measure your mood in that way? And I was like Oh OK. Sure. The most reason why I even went to those little support groups that were having in the psych ward was because I was so bored. I just wanted to talk to people. But that really was really helpful and it was nice talking to people. And of course, that wasn’t my last time in the psych ward because the next one I went to we didn’t do any of that. And I realise this is the worst hospital ever, because that other hospital was so much more helpful because they had a support group for us to all talk but this other hospital didn’t do anything for us. So, I realized that a support group in a hospital is actually very beneficial. It built me feel better. We were talking to everybody else that was in in the psych ward then and they were talking about things that got them there and things in the past understand better them. And it was very interesting to get everyone’s story.

Michelle:[ 00:10: 13] And then when I was in the other hospital nobody genuinely shared narratives. And “there werent” support group. Everyone was just kind of talking to each other a little bit but nothing was really organized and it attained me feel lonelier because I didn’t know why anyone else was in there.

Gabe:[ 00:10: 33] I think it’s interesting that you were in this other hospital and you were like Oh my God I’m so bored I’m gonna go to this thing and please correct me if I’m wrong but you thought you’re gonna dislike it. You thought it was stupid and dumb and you didn’t want to go. You were just so bored you were like oh I’m going to do this even this crap.

Michelle:[ 00:10: 47] Yeah.

Gabe:[ 00:10: 48] And then you missed it like you got so much out of it you wanted to do it again.

Michelle:[ 00:10: 53] Yes.

Gabe:[ 00:10: 54] I can see why you believed this.

Gabe:[ 00:10: 56] I don’t I don’t magistrate you at all when somebody said hey I want you to sit in a room full of strangers and talk about your eating disorder or your bipolar disorder or your depression or suicidality I was like No. Why. Why do I want to know? No this is dumb. This is stupid. I felt the exact same route I get so much out of it. I first started like you with the you know the more I don’t wanna say traditional but the various kinds of everybody thinks about with the nurse or the doctor or the social worker sitting up front and the fun is organized in a specific route medically. You know they ask questions everybody shares that kind of thing. But then as that evolved it when I got back out in the community you know those were expensive and I didn’t have a lot of money. But what was free or very low costs like you know throw a couple dollars in a hat various kinds of thing we’re peer run support groups. And that was the same kind of idea.

Michelle:[ 00:11: 50] Yeah.

Gabe:[ 00:11: 50] People sharing narratives etc. except the facilitator or moderator is another person lives with mental illness. Again, the most famous peer run support group of all time is Alcoholics Anonymous. It’s exactly like that except for mental illness or depression or bipolar or you know just depending on how it’s structured. I loved these groups the one that I joined very first. Are you ready?

Michelle:[ 00:12: 11] Yes.

Gabe:[ 00:12: 12] Bipolar bears.

Michelle:[ 00:12: 13] Bipolar bears. That sounds good because you are as big as a bear.

Gabe:[ 00:12: 17] Oh man that’s so mean.

Michelle:[ 00:12: 19] I want to see a fight between you and a bear and watch who wins.

Gabe:[ 00:12: 22] The bipolar bear.

Gabe:[ 00:12: 24] I picked the support group though because I was frightened and the name was so adorable.

Gabe:[ 00:12: 30] No that’s kind of a messed up thing to say but I merely I supposed How can I be scared go into a group of bi polar bears. honestly that that’s just what I thought. Like how can I be scared?

Michelle:[ 00:12: 41] Was there a stuffed animal bear that you had a hold every time you were speaking?

Gabe:[ 00:12: 45] No but that would be a really good notion. I was very nervous to go and here some hints and tips for some people who are nervous to go. Go with a friend. Even if that friend doesn’t go into the room with you even if the friend has fallen you off and waits in the dorm. 1- That’s a really good friend and 2 – you know sometimes that’s all it takes. You know somebody to like picking you up go to dinner first then run. I had somebody help me go to the group because I was scared she didn’t go in with me but she fell me off and waited and I thought that was really super cool of her because I was scared to go but then you know I got to know people I made friends with the moderator facilitator you know simply I became more comfortable just as we’re all you know as humans do.

Gabe:[ 00:13: 30] And then I just became a person who went to this support group for a long time and then after a while I felt that I wasn’t getting anything out of it anymore like I had shared all of my tales I had heard a lot of narratives and there’s a lot of power in that too. There’s a lot of power in hearing other people’s stories.

Michelle:[ 00:13: 47] There really is there really is because you might think that you’ve done horrible things in your life and then you hear somebody else and you’re like oh we’re equal or you might hear somebody else Oh that’s way worse than what I did.

Gabe:[ 00:13: 58] And it’s not about judgment. It’s about sort of sharing the burden.

Michelle:[ 00:14: 02] It’s about understanding what your illness is and what could happen what could not happen and what you’ve done in your life and how you can accept it. Really.

Gabe:[ 00:14: 13] Yeah. And when someone tells you something that they did when they unload on you know they just. I didn’t mow the lawn and I was supposed to mow the lawn. And then you say to them you’re like seem I didn’t mow the lawn either. There’s that connection. There’s that understanding. And that person feels better. And then you’re like Wait. Now I feel better because I helped you. And there’s just there’s a lot of power in that more so than people believe and listen. Replace lawn with anything you want. Plainly when I walked into these groups for the first time, I thought I was the only person that never mowed the lawn. And then I learned that it was just so common. And then after I was there for a while new people walked in and they thought they were the only people that never mow the lawn. And I got to tell them that I mow the lawn. And I’m also thinking wow of all the analogies and instances to use. Why did I pick lawn mowing?

Michelle:[ 00:15: 01] I don’t really know because I haven’t ever mowed on either.

Gabe:[ 00:15: 05] Oh it’s OK though.

Gabe:[ 00:15: 06] Neither have I.

Michelle:[ 00:15: 07] The only as a peer support group if I ever went to. I went with my bipolar friend who took me to the bipolar support group at Columbia University where it’s just donation to get in.

Gabe:[ 00:15: 17] Yeah.

Michelle:[ 00:15: 18] And so I went there and I was talking I couldn’t pertain fully to what everybody was saying but it was very interesting because this one guy was saying that his hyper sexuality was so big and he’s gay and he had you know unprotected sex and he got HIV.

Michelle:[ 00:15: 36] So you know I’m schizophrenic and a bipolar group and people are talking about you know hyper sexuality and look what happened to this guy I’m a schizophrenic I go through all these difficulties I do all these things but wow look what can happen. You know you would learn people’s stories and you know you kind of simply understand that things could be so much worse even though you don’t think that your life is amazing.

Gabe:[ 00:16: 02] We should probably touch for a moment because I don’t want people to get the idea that it’s like the suffering Olympics which we’ve talked about on this demonstrate before in such matters of somebody’s narrative being you know better worse. But at the same period, it is. I know exactly what you’re saying because sometimes I suppose Oh man, I thought that I hit rock bottom but I could have gone further and then other people they hear my tale and they’re like oh wow this guy is route worse than me. It’s not about the judgment. It’s about the understanding the gravity of the situation and the breadth of the situation and just how just how bad it can get.

Michelle:[ 00:16: 39] Yeah.

Gabe:[ 00:16: 40] And then it’s also about seeing those people and lifting them up and carrying them up and helping them and constructing it so that they’re rock bottom is style far below them because my rock bottom was style down there today. But you know when I sort of go into these support groups I was standing on rock bottom.

Michelle:[ 00:17: 00] Hold up. We support from our sponsors. We’ll be right back.

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Gabe:[ 00:17: 35] We’re back talking about different types of support groups.

Michelle:[ 00:17: 37] The support groups that you and you were so helpful for you that you became a facilitator. What was that like for you?

Gabe:[ 00:17: 44] So one day I realized that I wasn’t getting anything out of the support groups anymore so I stopped running and that’s a great decision to construct. Some people believe that you have to go to support groups for the rest of your life or you’re turning your back on people. That’s not true. You simply keep going until you no longer get use out of it and then you step aside and let the next people sort of rise into their places. But I missed it and an organization that I was volunteering for put out a call for peer subsistence facilitators for these groups you had to go through training.

Gabe:[ 00:18: 15] I had to go through a three day developing eight hours a day for three days. I had to learn a whole bunch of stuff I had to pass a test I had they had to make sure that I was good at it I guess. We learned things about like hot potatoes like what to do if somebody mess in certain words how to get people help how to have a resources how to structure the group how to you know the rules of involvement as it were how to de-escalate and on and on and on.

Gabe:[ 00:18: 36] And I got through that. And then here here’s me and another person we get our own support group. Yeah. Like Gabe and Jane we’ll call her Jane because I want to protect her or her anonymity. Gabe and Jane now have the support group and people started coming and it’s different when you’re the facilitator. The biggest thing that you have to remember when you’re the facilitator is it’s not about you. It’s not about me at all. Like there’s no part of it that it’s about me. The only thing that I’m there to do is make sure that people are obeying the rules and keeping people safe and inducing assured that people have the resources that they need. That’s it. You know in a perfect world I wouldn’t speak at all.

Michelle:[ 00:19: 22] Truly?

Gabe:[ 00:19: 23] Yeah I would come in. I would start the meeting. I would have everybody read the principles of support I would have everybody read the group guidelines. I would ask everybody by show of hands if they understood. I would ask who would like to go first. And then if everybody takes their turn one at a time and nobody get upset or triggered and everybody shares information and has a nice reasonable conversation the next thing that I would need to say is all right well we have about five minutes left so we want to go ahead and wind down or they’re there anything that I can answer because we always like to end on time is very important we don’t want groups to go on and on and on and on and on. That “wouldve been” perfect and you know believe it or not it ran that route a lot. Usually the most I had to do it would say something like. All right who wants to go next or. Hang on hang in hang on Jim. Michelle has been waiting to talk Michelle. You know stuff like that just like little things.

Michelle:[ 00:20: 13] That’s funny because it has such an opposite experience that I had in the in that group that I went to perhaps because I’m in New York City and people simply can’t stop talking all the time. But it was just one after and the other after another after another. A plenty of people were talking about you know burning bridges self-sabotage all kinds of things like that with their partners that are cheating on their development partners all the time is the hyper sexuality. Things like that. And at one point I had mentioned something about me being in the group but I’m schizophrenic and a girl goes,” Oh you don’t even know what people say to me. They said they say oh thank god you’re bipolar and not schizophrenic” and I’m like yeah I’m feeling this stigma in this group.

Gabe:[ 00:20: 56] Well but wait though you even in your own description though you said that everybody talked one at a time.

Michelle:[ 00:21: 02] Yeah but he was just flowing flowing flowing. It was never who wants to talk next everybody was chatting. Everybody merely went on and on and on.

Gabe:[ 00:21: 11] But it sounds like you had a really good facilitator because nobody talked over each other.

Gabe:[ 00:21: 18] There were no side conversations and if there were did the facilitator shut it down.

Michelle:[ 00:21: 22] It wasn’t the facilitator at the end was like this really ran very well I also didn’t really have to moderate. You guys talk really great then.

Gabe:[ 00:21: 34] And that’s what I entail by. If you if you do a good job, you’re just kind of like the cop sitting on the side of the road. You don’t have to do anything. People see you and they slow down if you’re a good facilitator you just kind of establish the rules and you enforce them. But you know you don’t have to enforce them unless people are violating them. And for the most part groups ran fine they ran fine people learn from each other they share it. People talked and you know support groups are like a buffet take what you want and leave the rest just because something is put out there in a support group doesn’t mean that you have to take it accept it or agree with it. You are more than welcome to leave it right there. And I would encourage people to do this week after week after week and it went fine.

Michelle:[ 00:22: 18] Were there ever any problems?

Gabe:[ 00:22: 20] From time to hour there would be a problem. I actually want to stress that 90 percent of the time it was fantastic nothing more than you know merely reminding people not to cross talk you know cause sometimes there’d be like a little cross talking where somebody is having a private conversation I remind them that you know they need to leave the room if it wishes to do that that kind of thing or you know I would notice that maybe a shyer person just wasn’t getting wasn’t jumping in.

Gabe:[ 00:22: 43] So I’d quiet everybody down so that you know Michelle would have a chance to talk as she was maybe being a little shy.

Gabe:[ 00:22: 49] You know stuff like that but. But every now and again of a fight would break out and be like No no. And that’s really poor wording on a podcast an argument a discrepancy. Tensions would rise people would ramp up backs would be raised and I had de-escalation techniques that I use. I’d say all right stop everybody pacifies down please let’s all take a deep breath. Michelle, I understand that you’re upset that somebody said that lacrosse isn’t a real sport OK and Gabe. I understand that you think that lacrosse is not a real athletic but that is that is not kind you. You should really apologize to Michelle for expressed the view that and then the person usually apologizes and I would say and Michelle when somebody says something you disagree with yell at them is not the best way.

Gabe:[ 00:23: 42] So would you mind apologizing for yelling and then you would say I’m sorry I hollered at you and I say OK now let’s talk about what we were talking about before and I’d recollect like what started the fight and get us back on that and nearly I would say all but I honestly I think this worked 100 percent of the time I just really don’t like to say 100 percentage of the time the two people they got in the debate would become like BFF’s. They almost always would because they would talk it out you know I would say seem I didn’t mean it wasn’t a real athletic I was just nervous and I don’t understand lacrosse and you would you would say Yeah look I you know I didn’t invent lacrosse. I don’t know why I get so mad and I’d be like but you’re a sports fan and you’d be like Yeah, I really like hockey. I like hockey and then the next thing you know we’re having a podcast.

Michelle:[ 00:24: 25] How many people are you’re in these groups of you?

Gabe:[ 00:24: 28] Anywhere from the smallest groups I ever had were probably six or seven the largest groups that I ever had were 15 to 16.

Michelle:[ 00:24: 35] That’s huge.

Gabe:[ 00:24: 36] Yeah. We weren’t allowed to have more than 15 people. Yeah, every now and again we would let the 16 th person sneak in before we started turning people away but at 15 what was our maximum limit which is why I’m saying 15 or 16 because we really weren’t supposed to go over 15 because you’re right. That’s a huge group. And there were two of us. There were two facilitators and we would sit in a circle and we’d sit on either one and we’d induce little notes at each other and we’d look at each other and we would just hold people on the right path.

Michelle:[ 00:25: 04] I knew person or persons in different groups that I went to. She was just there to listen. She just wanted to sit there and listen to people. She didn’t want to participate. Her method was just listening and I know that it was interesting there was a guy next to me. He said he was actually a evangelist and he doesn’t really like to talk that much he likes to listen. But he was saying he’s a preacher and nobody that he works with knows that he’s bipolar because he’s a preacher and he asked to keep that that kind of like you know that he has strong you know successful man and he can’t tell anyone. You know in the church that he has bipolar because that would stimulate him look bad. But he comes to these meetings and he listens. He doesn’t speak that much but it simply helps him by being there.

Gabe:[ 00:25: 50] By in the room. By being in the presence of other people. That’s enough for some people not me I’m a talker.

Michelle:[ 00:25: 57] Yeah yeah.

Gabe:[ 00:25: 58] I like to do a lot of talking a lot of sharing. I like to offer support but I also needed to remember when to listen and when to shut up and sometimes when I was a group member the facilitators would have to set their hand up and remind me to stop talking.

Gabe:[ 00:26: 13] And that’s a good the thing for a facilitator to do.

Gabe:[ 00:26: 17] And if the facilitator doesn’t write you’re not embarrassed you’re not a shame you’re understanding that they’re making space for everybody. I really like support groups and I encourage people to go to them if they are available in your community. Please run. Oftentimes they’re free. Perhaps you got to throw a couple bucks in a hat. But even if you simply sit there and listen you’ll learn so much and you’ll be in the presence of other people that have similar experiences.

Michelle:[ 00:26: 43] It’s very it’s very helpful to note that you’re not alone.

Gabe:[ 00:26: 47] Exactly. And some of those people listen. Some of those people will rile you. There’s personality types that you will not get along.

Michelle:[ 00:26: 54] Oh trust me yes.

Gabe:[ 00:26: 55] And that’s okay too because it shows you that even people who are annoying have mental illness. That’s okay.

Gabe:[ 00:27: 05] My mom annoys me. I still love her. Your mom annoys you Michelle.

Michelle:[ 00:27: 11] Just the little.

Gabe:[ 00:27: 12] Just a little.

Gabe:[ 00:27: 14] And.

Michelle:[ 00:27: 15] I still love her.

Gabe:[ 00:27: 16] Yes.

Gabe:[ 00:27: 17] So the people in a support group you will find that common ground and you don’t have to be best friends. In fact, I deter going to a support group to make friends should go to a support group to get subsistence. It doesn’t mean that a friendship won’t come out of it but that should not be your goal your goal should be to attentively listen. And your goal should be to truthfully share and if you do that, I think that you’ll get a lot out of it. So, if you are afraid to go find a buddy and run even if the body simply sits outside or just go on your own. Talk to the facilitator let him know you’re scared show up early so that you’re there before the big group gets there and tell the facilitator that you’re nervous.

Michelle:[ 00:27: 51] You can always change your name too.

Gabe:[ 00:27: 53] There is most all the groups that I did. Everybody went by their first name and you’re right. We didn’t I didn’t I didn’t card anybody. So maybe everybody’s name was wrong.

Gabe:[ 00:28: 02] I don’t know.

Michelle:[ 00:28: 03] I mean you can change your name you cannot say what your job is.

Gabe:[ 00:28: 07] Yes.

Michelle:[ 00:28: 08] Just share only what you want to share. There’s one issue you want to talk about. You can only talk if you would attain us merely talk about that issue. That’s what you want to speak about you’re forced to say anything you don’t want to say.

Gabe:[ 00:28: 19] Exactly. You can share as much as you want or as little as you want. All that’s required is honesty. It’s not full disclosure. And I think that people miss that sometimes they think that it’s some sort of an interrogation. It’s not. It’s participation at your velocity at your rate. And if the support group isn’t working out for you don’t go back. There’s nothing incorrect with that. If I am very lucky as are you Michelle because we live in big cities there’s dozens of support groups. So when I didn’t like one I just joined another one. If that’s the case for you know support group shop. If you merely have the one you might have to work a little harder to make it run. But I really promote support groups and finally the last thing that we want to say is PsychCentral.com has a ton on of online support groups. I like the in person one’s certainly better. The advantage of the online ones is they’re open 24 hours a day. They’re available when you need them. It’s kind of like a drop in center for online. So visit sites PsychCentral.com. Join the support groups and just have a blast. Those groups are really awesome and they don’t pelt you with advertising or ask you for a bunch of stuff either. So we really love Psych Central here at A Bipolar, A Schizophrenic And A Podcast.

Gabe:[ 00:29: 31] Michelle Are we out?

Michelle:[ 00:29: 33] I think we’re out.

Gabe:[ 00:29: 34] Thank you everybody for tuning in. Remember you are able to head over to store.PsychCentral.com and pick up a Define Normal shirt when they’re gone their run unless of course we order more or you can run over to PsychCentral.com. Join a support group read great articles everything over there is free and they are a very generous supporter.

Gabe:[ 00:29: 51] Of this podcast. We’ll watch everybody next week.

Narrator:[ 00:29: 56] You’ve been listening to a bipolar a schizophrenic kind of podcast. If you love this episode don’t keep it to yourself head over to iTunes or your preferred podcast app to subscribe rate and review working in cooperation with Gabe go to GabeHoward.com. To work with Michelle go to Schizophrenic.NYC. For free mental health resources and online support groups. Head over to PsychCentral.com Show’s official Web site PsychCentrald.com/ bsp you can e-mail us at show @PsychCentral. com. Thank you for listening and share widely.

Meet Your Bipolar and Schizophrenic Hosts

GABE HOWARD was formally diagnosed with bipolar and anxiety disorders after being committed to a psychiatric hospital in 2003. Now in recovery, Gabe is a prominent mental health activist and host of the award-winning Psych Central Show podcast. He is also an award-winning novelist and speaker, traveling nationally to share the humorous, yet educational, tale of his bipolar life. To work with Gabe, visit gabehoward.com.

MICHELLE HAMMER was officially diagnosed with schizophrenia at age 22, but incorrectly diagnosed with bipolar disorder at 18. Michelle is an award-winning mental health advocate who has been featured in press all over the world. In May 2015, Michelle founded the company Schizophrenic.NYC, a mental health garb line, with members of the mission of reducing stigma by starting conversations about mental health. She is a firm believer that confidence can get you anywhere. To work with Michelle, visit Schizophrenic.NYC.

Read more: psychcentral.com

Podcast: Support Groups for Mental Illness – What are They?



Most people understand how doctors and therapists work, but many people can’t quite wrap their minds around support groups – especially peer-led ones. In this episode, our hosts dissect different types of support groups to make them better understood and more accessible. Listen Now!

  SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

“[Mental Illness] Support groups are like a buffet — take what you want and leave the rest.” – Gabe Howard

  Highlights From ‘Mental Illness Support Groups’ Episode

[1:00] Lets talk about support groups.

[3:00] Fountain House in NYC is awesome!

[6:00] Why it’s great to be around like-minded people.

[8:00] Support groups in hospitals.

[12:00] Peer-run support groups, hints and tips.

[18:00] Gabe became a support group facilitator — what does that mean?

[25:00] Sometimes people come to support groups just to listen.

[26:00] Gabe and Michelle recommend support groups to listen and share.

[28:00] Don’t like your support group? You can find another!

Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Support Groups for Mental Illness – What are They?’ Show

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Narrator: [00:00:09] For reasons that utterly escapes Everyone involved. You’re listening to A Bipolar, A Schizophrenic and A Podcast. Here are your hosts, Gabe Howard and Michelle Hammer. Thank you for tuning into A Bipolar, A Schizophrenic and A Podcast.

Gabe: [00:00:22] I’m Gabe, I have bipolar.

Michelle: [00:00:24] Hi I’m Michelle I’m schizophrenic.

Gabe: [00:00:26] And today we’re going to try to give some helpful information and maybe demystify things like support groups peer support groups support groups read by medical staff like social workers or doctors kind of talk about our experiences we’ve heard from others and just try to tie it up at a nice little bow. For those of you who are sitting there thinking Should I go to a group support group and what’s it going to be like and huh.

Michelle: [00:00:57] You’ve been to a a lot of support groups right Gabe?

Gabe: [00:00:59] I personally love support groups. I’ve been to all forms I’ve been to the ones led by a psychologist. I’ve been to ones led by social workers. I’ve been to ones led by peer supporters. Yeah, I am a I’m a big big believer and I go to a drop-in center which is run by people with mental illness and addiction for people with mental illness and addiction to drop in. So, it’s not exactly a support group but it’s still a group setting for people with mental illness and or addiction to kind of chill.

Michelle: [00:01:34] Yeah I do that too when I go to Fountain House in New York City. It’s kind of just like a clubhouse for people with mental illness and it’s not necessarily group therapy but you’re around like-minded people and you can have really good conversations and there’s really just no judgment there.

Michelle: [00:01:49] And it’s a really nice place to be around.

Gabe: [00:01:53] You sort of feel comfortable there because it’s set up for people like you and me.

Michelle: [00:01:59] It’s more like you’re not being judged. You feel no judgment in a support group. Everybody’s likeminded. Nobody’s thinking bad things about anything you say. You just have just a normal conversation and maybe you think somebody said something weird but then you’re like you know what I’m at this support group to what may maybe something I say somebody else thinks is weird but it’s okay cause we’re all talking to each other openly.

Gabe: [00:02:25] Let’s take this in sections so the section number one we’re going to talk about consumer operated services or peer run organizations drop in centers clubhouses like Fountain House where you go in New York City the Peer Center where I go in Columbus, Ohio and there’s there’s hundreds and hundreds of these models across the United States.

Gabe: [00:02:43] So let’s do that first. You go to probably one of the most famous drop in centers in the country. You’re really super lucky to live in New York City because fountain House has all kinds of services don’t you like a rooftop garden.

Michelle: [00:03:01] There might be a rooftop garden I don’t know if I’d been there but I am in the horticulture unit where they do all the planting and all that kind of stuff and sometimes I do help with the planting but a lot of times I just go there with my computer and I do my work there because I like to be surrounded by people that I can talk to as I’m doing my work. It’s just friendly. It’s nice it’s calming. I mean I could go to a Starbucks but that’s boring. Why not go to Fountain House chit chat with a bunch of fun people while I do my work.

Gabe: [00:03:32] You know the Peer Center where I go doesn’t have a garden. I mean we don’t we don’t have a garden and to call it a horticultural unit. That that that seriously really bad ass. But let’s talk about that for a moment because you know some people hearing this, they’re like wait a minute what does a garden have to do with mental health. And I’ll tell you this is probably my favorite thing to explain to people because at the Peer Center people come in and like oh you have mental illness and you have addiction issues and you’re playing cards. How does playing cards help? How does gardening help?

Gabe: [00:04:09] And here’s what I say. Are you ready for this?

Michelle: [00:04:11] I’m ready.

Gabe: [00:04:12] When you sit down with a group of likeminded people to play cards you talk and this whole game of spades or Uno or whatever game you choose to play that’s just kind of the distraction. Well you’re actually doing is talking about the things that are bothering you just like everybody else who plays cards you talk about your week. You talk about your grandkids you talk about your grandparents if you’re young you just you’re playing cards against humanity you feel bad. But in the best of ways. But these are very social activities. So, while you’re doing these social things you’re talking about the things that are that are eating you inside or you’re bragging about the things that you’re proud of to other likeminded people. Now nobody leaves a Fountain House or the Peer Center or any drop-in center and says Hey I said that I was 35 days sober and I was really proud of myself and everybody said they were proud of me too. No, they say I played cards but we know that you can play cards anywhere you went for that reassurance from. From people who are like you and understand. And that’s really the magic of these places.

Michelle: [00:05:18] It is the magic of these places. People find it interesting that I have friends that are so much older than me. I go to Fountain House. One of my best friends there she’s 56. Like people your friends a 56-year-old woman. No, she’s a really awesome person. She has great things to say. I love speaking to her. Why is it judgment. Is it stigma that she’s 56? What’s the big deal that she’s 56? We have likeminded mental capacity with mental illness and we just talk about regular things. Age doesn’t even make a difference there.

Gabe: [00:05:52] It is hard to find people. Probably because of the stigma that understand what we’re going through. You know I live with bipolar disorder and as you know people with bipolar disorder except for like my people we aren’t wearing shirts that say bipolar so people with schizophrenia people with depression we tend not to advertise it. So, it’s really easy to feel alone. But when you go to a drop-in center you go to a place like this you can sit around other people who also admit to living with mental illness and you can have real conversations about it. Listen Michelle and I we didn’t meet in a drop-in center but we could have you and I could have met in a drop-in center.

Michelle: [00:06:28] Oh definitely.

Gabe: [00:06:29] Yeah. We could’ve just been sitting there like Hey I take meds and it causes sexual side effects and my mouth is dry and you would’ve been like Oh my God.

Gabe: [00:06:36] Me too. And we could have just had this great conversation about how sometimes our medication pisses us off and when we left, we would’ve felt better because I would’ve been like oh my god I thought I was the only one. And you would have been like wow at least I’m not pitiful like that guy.

Gabe: [00:06:50] And the whole thing just drives forward that’s the magic of having a place where we belong and everybody has this. You want to play basketball you go to a gym. If you’re fat you join a gym.

Michelle: [00:07:03] Or you eat a bunch of Oreos.

Gabe: [00:07:05] I love Oreos.

Gabe: [00:07:07] All I’m saying is.

Michelle: [00:07:08] It’s a place of acceptance.

Gabe: [00:07:10] It is a place of acceptance and everybody has this in society. Everybody has this. There are all kinds of clubs and social events. There’s a whole website called meetup.

Gabe: [00:07:21] We’re likeminded people can.

Michelle: [00:07:22] Meetup. That’s how I found Mike post collegiate lacrosse team was meetup.com.

Gabe: [00:07:27] There you go. So, we like to be around people who understand us. We like to feel understood and that that’s not a mental illness thing. That’s not an addiction thing. That’s a human thing. And that’s why drop in centers consumer operated services peer run organizations the clubhouse model. That’s why all of these things are fantastic. But that sort of leads us into support groups because support groups are, they’re not the clubhouse model because you know clubhouse drop in centers et cetera.

Gabe: [00:07:54] They’re open like for periods of time you know they’re open for like you know morning to night etc. whereas a support group especially a Community Support Group is usually like an hour to an hour and a half maybe once or twice a week. So very different vibe.

Michelle: [00:08:10] I would agree with that. Yes.

Gabe: [00:08:12] And there’s two types of those groups. Well there’s probably more than two types but two types that we’re going to talk about here. There’s pure run support group which means a person with mental illness running a support group for other people with mental illness or in the case of like Alcoholics Anonymous recovered alcoholics running a support group for people who are trying to recover or in recovery from alcoholism. So that’s the peer run model.

Gabe: [00:08:35] And then there’s the more you know medical model it’s run by a social worker or psychologist or you know somebody with some sort of training and they both have their pluses and minuses. One is not better than the other. They both have their pluses minuses now Michelle you went to more than a few if I’m not mistaken.

Michelle: [00:08:53] A support group?

Gabe: [00:08:54] Yes support group that was led by a doctor or a social worker.

Michelle: [00:08:59] Well the first kind of support group I’ve really went to was when I was in a psych ward and it was just kind of run by a nurse and we would just go around talking and something that I got out of it that I didn’t even really follow was. Do you journal you should keep a journal and measure your mood in that way? And I was like Oh OK. Sure. The most reason why I even went to those little support groups that were having in the psych ward was because I was so bored. I just wanted to talk to people. But that actually was really helpful and it was nice talking to people. And of course, that wasn’t my last time in the psych ward because the next one I went to we didn’t do any of that. And I realized this is the worst hospital ever, because that other hospital was so much more helpful because they had a support group for us to all talk but this other hospital didn’t do anything for us. So, I realized that a support group in a hospital is actually very beneficial. It made me feel better. We were talking to everybody else that was in in the psych ward then and they were talking about things that got them there and things in the past learning about them. And it was very interesting to get everyone’s story.

Michelle: [00:10:13] And then when I was in the other hospital nobody really shared stories. And there was no support group. Everyone was just kind of talking to each other a little bit but nothing was really organized and it made me feel lonelier because I didn’t know why anyone else was in there.

Gabe: [00:10:33] I think it’s interesting that you were in this other hospital and you were like Oh my God I’m so bored I’m gonna go to this thing and please correct me if I’m wrong but you thought you’re gonna hate it. You thought it was stupid and dumb and you didn’t want to go. You were just so bored you were like oh I’m going to do this even this crap.

Michelle: [00:10:47] Yeah.

Gabe: [00:10:48] And then you missed it like you got so much out of it you wanted to do it again.

Michelle: [00:10:53] Yes.

Gabe: [00:10:54] I can see why you believed this.

Gabe: [00:10:56] I don’t I don’t judge you at all when somebody said hey I want you to sit in a room full of strangers and talk about your eating disorder or your bipolar disorder or your depression or suicidality I was like No. Why. Why do I want to know? No this is dumb. This is stupid. I felt the exact same way I got so much out of it. I first started like you with the you know the more I don’t wanna say traditional but the kind of everybody thinks about with the nurse or the doctor or the social worker sitting up front and the fun is organized in a specific way medically. You know they ask questions everybody shares that kind of thing. But then as that evolved it when I got back out in the community you know those were expensive and I didn’t have a lot of money. But what was free or very low costs like you know throw a couple dollars in a hat kind of thing we’re peer run support groups. And that was the same kind of idea.

Michelle: [00:11:50] Yeah.

Gabe: [00:11:50] People sharing stories etc. except the facilitator or moderator is another person living with mental illness. Again, the most famous peer run support group of all time is Alcoholics Anonymous. It’s exactly like that except for mental illness or depression or bipolar or you know just depending on how it’s structured. I loved these groups the one that I joined very first. Are you ready?

Michelle: [00:12:11] Yes.

Gabe: [00:12:12] Bipolar bears.

Michelle: [00:12:13] Bipolar bears. That sounds good because you are as big as a bear.

Gabe: [00:12:17] Oh man that’s so mean.

Michelle: [00:12:19] I want to see a fight between you and a bear and see who wins.

Gabe: [00:12:22] The bipolar bear.

Gabe: [00:12:24] I picked the support group though because I was scared and the name was so adorable.

Gabe: [00:12:30] No that’s kind of a messed up thing to say but I just I thought How can I be scared go into a group of bi polar bears. honestly that that’s just what I thought. Like how can I be scared?

Michelle: [00:12:41] Was there a stuffed animal bear that you had a hold every time you were speaking?

Gabe: [00:12:45] No but that would be a really good idea. I was very nervous to go and here some hints and tips for some people who are nervous to go. Go with a friend. Even if that friend doesn’t go into the room with you even if the friend has drops you off and waits in the hall. 1 – That’s a really good friend and 2 – you know sometimes that’s all it takes. You know somebody to like pick you up go to dinner first then go. I had somebody help me go to the group because I was scared she didn’t go in with me but she dropped me off and waited and I thought that was really super cool of her because I was scared to go but then you know I got to know people I made friends with the moderator facilitator you know just I became more comfortable just as we’re all you know as humans do.

Gabe: [00:13:30] And then I just became a person who went to this support group for a long time and then after a while I felt that I wasn’t getting anything out of it anymore like I had shared all of my stories I had heard a lot of stories and there’s a lot of power in that too. There’s a lot of power in hearing other people’s stories.

Michelle: [00:13:47] There really is there really is because you might think that you’ve done horrible things in your life and then you hear somebody else and you’re like oh we’re equal or you might hear somebody else Oh that’s way worse than what I did.

Gabe: [00:13:58] And it’s not about judgment. It’s about sort of sharing the burden.

Michelle: [00:14:02] It’s about understanding what your illness is and what could happen what could not happen and what you’ve done in your life and how you can accept it. Really.

Gabe: [00:14:13] Yeah. And when somebody tells you something that they did when they unload on you know they just. I didn’t mow the lawn and I was supposed to mow the lawn. And then you say to them you’re like look I didn’t mow the lawn either. There’s that connection. There’s that understanding. And that person feels better. And then you’re like Wait. Now I feel better because I helped you. And there’s just there’s a lot of power in that more so than people think and listen. Replace lawn with anything you want. Obviously when I walked into these groups for the first time, I thought I was the only person that never mowed the lawn. And then I learned that it was just so common. And then after I was there for a while new people walked in and they thought they were the only people that never mow the lawn. And I got to tell them that I mow the lawn. And I’m also thinking wow of all the analogies and examples to use. Why did I pick lawn mowing?

Michelle: [00:15:01] I don’t really know because I haven’t ever mowed on either.

Gabe: [00:15:05] Oh it’s OK though.

Gabe: [00:15:06] Neither have I.

Michelle: [00:15:07] The only as a peer support group if I ever went to. I went with my bipolar friend who took me to the bipolar support group at Columbia University where it’s just donation to get in.

Gabe: [00:15:17] Yeah.

Michelle: [00:15:18] And so I went there and I was talking I couldn’t relate fully to what everybody was saying but it was very interesting because this one guy was saying that his hyper sexuality was so big and he’s gay and he had you know unprotected sex and he got HIV.

Michelle: [00:15:36] So you know I’m schizophrenic and a bipolar group and people are talking about you know hyper sexuality and look what happened to this guy I’m a schizophrenic I go through all these troubles I do all these things but wow look what can happen. You know you would learn people’s stories and you know you kind of just understand that things could be so much worse even though you don’t think that your life is amazing.

Gabe: [00:16:02] We should probably touch for a moment because I don’t want people to get the idea that it’s like the suffering Olympics which we’ve talked about on this show before in a matter of somebody’s story being you know better worse. But at the same time, it is. I know exactly what you’re saying because sometimes I think Oh man, I thought that I hit rock bottom but I could have gone further and then other people they hear my story and they’re like oh wow this guy is way worse than me. It’s not about the judgment. It’s about the understanding the gravity of the situation and the breadth of the situation and just how just how bad it can get.

Michelle: [00:16:39] Yeah.

Gabe: [00:16:40] And then it’s also about finding those people and lifting them up and carrying them up and helping them and making it so that they’re rock bottom is way far below them because my rock bottom was way down there today. But you know when I sort of go into these support groups I was standing on rock bottom.

Michelle: [00:17:00] Hold up. We support from our sponsors. We’ll be right back.

Narrator: [00:17:04] This episode is sponsored by betterhelp.com secure convenient and affordable online counselling. All counselors are licensed accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face to face session. Go to betterhelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counselling is right for you. Betterhelp.com/PsychCentral.

Gabe: [00:17:35] We’re back talking about different types of support groups.

Michelle: [00:17:37] The support groups that you and you were so helpful for you that you became a facilitator. What was that like for you?

Gabe: [00:17:44] So one day I realized that I wasn’t getting anything out of the support groups anymore so I stopped going and that’s a great decision to make. Some people believe that you have to go to support groups for the rest of your life or you’re turning your back on people. That’s not true. You just keep going until you no longer get use out of it and then you step aside and let the next people sort of rise into their places. But I missed it and an organization that I was volunteering for put out a call for peer support facilitators for these groups you had to go through training.

Gabe: [00:18:15] I had to go through a three day training eight hours a day for three days. I had to learn a whole bunch of stuff I had to pass a test I had they had to make sure that I was good at it I guess. We learned things about like hot potatoes like what to do if somebody mess in certain words how to get people help how to have a resources how to structure the group how to you know the rules of engagement as it were how to de-escalate and on and on and on.

Gabe: [00:18:36] And I got through that. And then here here’s me and another person we get our own support group. Yeah. Like Gabe and Jane we’ll call her Jane because I want to protect her or her anonymity. Gabe and Jane now have the support group and people started coming and it’s different when you’re the facilitator. The biggest thing that you have to remember when you’re the facilitator is it’s not about you. It’s not about me at all. Like there’s no part of it that it’s about me. The only thing that I’m there to do is make sure that people are obeying the rules and keeping people safe and making sure that people have the resources that they need. That’s it. You know in a perfect world I wouldn’t speak at all.

Michelle: [00:19:22] Really?

Gabe: [00:19:23] Yeah I would come in. I would start the meeting. I would have everybody read the principles of support I would have everybody read the group guidelines. I would ask everybody by show of hands if they understood. I would ask who would like to go first. And then if everybody takes their turn one at a time and nobody gets upset or triggered and everybody shares information and has a nice reasonable conversation the next thing that I would need to say is all right well we have about five minutes left so we want to go ahead and wind down or they’re there anything that I can answer because we always like to end on time is very important we don’t want groups to go on and on and on and on and on. That would be perfect and you know believe it or not it worked that way a lot. Usually the most I had to do it would say something like. All right who wants to go next or. Hang on hang on hang on Jim. Michelle has been waiting to talk Michelle. You know stuff like that just like little things.

Michelle: [00:20:13] That’s funny because it has such an opposite experience that I had in the in that group that I went to maybe because I’m in New York City and people just can’t stop talking all the time. But it was just one after and another after another after another. A lot of people were talking about you know burning bridges self-sabotage all kinds of things like that with their partners that are cheating on their partners all the time is the hyper sexuality. Things like that. And at one point I had mentioned something about me being in the group but I’m schizophrenic and a girl goes, “Oh you don’t even know what people say to me. They said they say oh thank god you’re bipolar and not schizophrenic” and I’m like yeah I’m feeling this stigma in this group.

Gabe: [00:20:56] Well but wait though you even in your own description though you said that everybody talked one at a time.

Michelle: [00:21:02] Yeah but he was just flowing flowing flowing. It was never who wants to talk next everybody was chatting. Everybody just went on and on and on.

Gabe: [00:21:11] But it sounds like you had a really good facilitator because nobody talked over each other.

Gabe: [00:21:18] There were no side conversations and if there were did the facilitator shut it down.

Michelle: [00:21:22] It wasn’t the facilitator at the end was like this really went very well I also didn’t really have to moderate. You guys talk really great then.

Gabe: [00:21:34] And that’s what I mean by. If you if you do a good job, you’re just kind of like the cop sitting on the side of the road. You don’t have to do anything. People see you and they slow down if you’re a good facilitator you just kind of establish the rules and you enforce them. But you know you don’t have to enforce them unless people are breaking them. And for the most part groups went fine they went fine people learn from each other they share it. People talked and you know support groups are like a buffet take what you want and leave the rest just because something is put out there in a support group doesn’t mean that you have to take it accept it or agree with it. You are more than welcome to leave it right there. And I would encourage people to do this week after week after week and it went fine.

Michelle: [00:22:18] Were there ever any problems?

Gabe: [00:22:20] From time to time there would be a problem. I really want to stress that 90 percent of the time it was fantastic nothing more than you know just reminding people not to cross talk you know cause sometimes there’d be like a little cross talking where somebody is having a private conversation I remind them that you know they need to leave the room if they want to do that that kind of thing or you know I would notice that maybe a shyer person just wasn’t getting wasn’t jumping in.

Gabe: [00:22:43] So I’d quiet everybody down so that you know Michelle would have a chance to talk as she was maybe being a little shy.

Gabe: [00:22:49] You know stuff like that but. But every now and again of a fight would break out and be like No no. And that’s really poor wording on a podcast an argument a disagreement. Tensions would rise people would ramp up backs would be raised and I had de-escalation techniques that I use. I’d say all right stop everybody calms down please let’s all take a deep breath. Michelle, I understand that you’re upset that somebody said that lacrosse isn’t a real sport OK and Gabe. I understand that you think that lacrosse is not a real sport but that is that is not kind you. You should really apologize to Michelle for saying that and then the person usually apologizes and I would say and Michelle when somebody says something you disagree with yelling at them is not the best way.

Gabe: [00:23:42] So would you mind apologizing for yelling and then you would say I’m sorry I yelled at you and I say OK now let’s talk about what we were talking about before and I’d remember like what started the fight and get us back on that and almost I would say all but I honestly I think this worked 100 percent of the time I just really don’t like to say 100 percent of the time the two people they got in the argument would become like BFF’s. They almost always would because they would talk it out you know I would say look I didn’t mean it wasn’t a real sport I was just nervous and I don’t understand lacrosse and you would you would say Yeah look I you know I didn’t invent lacrosse. I don’t know why I got so mad and I’d be like but you’re a sports fan and you’d be like Yeah, I really like hockey. I like hockey and then the next thing you know we’re having a podcast.

Michelle: [00:24:25] How many people are you’re in these groups of you?

Gabe: [00:24:28] Anywhere from the smallest groups I ever had were probably six or seven the largest groups that I ever had were 15 to 16.

Michelle: [00:24:35] That’s huge.

Gabe: [00:24:36] Yeah. We weren’t allowed to have more than 15 people. Yeah, every now and again we would let the 16th person sneak in before we started turning people away but at 15 what was our maximum limit which is why I’m saying 15 or 16 because we really weren’t supposed to go over 15 because you’re right. That’s a huge group. And there were two of us. There were two facilitators and we would sit in a circle and we’d sit on either one and we’d make little notes at each other and we’d look at each other and we would just keep people on the right path.

Michelle: [00:25:04] I knew one person in the group that I went to. She was just there to listen. She just wanted to sit there and listen to people. She didn’t want to participate. Her method was just listening and I know that it was interesting there was a guy next to me. He said he was actually a preacher and he doesn’t really like to talk that much he likes to listen. But he was saying he’s a preacher and nobody that he works with knows that he’s bipolar because he’s a preacher and he asked to keep that that kind of like you know that he has strong you know successful man and he can’t tell anyone. You know in the church that he has bipolar because that would make him look bad. But he comes to these meetings and he listens. He doesn’t speak that much but it just helps him by being there.

Gabe: [00:25:50] By in the room. By being in the presence of other people. That’s enough for some people not me I’m a talker.

Michelle: [00:25:57] Yeah yeah.

Gabe: [00:25:58] I like to do a lot of talking a lot of sharing. I like to offer support but I also needed to remember when to listen and when to shut up and sometimes when I was a group member the facilitators would have to put their hand up and remind me to stop talking.

Gabe: [00:26:13] And that’s a good the thing for a facilitator to do.

Gabe: [00:26:17] And if the facilitator doesn’t write you’re not embarrassed you’re not a shame you’re understanding that they’re making space for everybody. I really like support groups and I encourage people to go to them if they are available in your community. Please go. Oftentimes they’re free. Maybe you got to throw a couple bucks in a hat. But even if you just sit there and listen you’ll learn so much and you’ll be in the presence of other people that have similar experiences.

Michelle: [00:26:43] It’s very it’s very helpful to note that you’re not alone.

Gabe: [00:26:47] Exactly. And some of those people listen. Some of those people will annoy you. There’s personality types that you will not get along.

Michelle: [00:26:54] Oh trust me yes.

Gabe: [00:26:55] And that’s okay too because it shows you that even people who are annoying have mental illness. That’s okay.

Gabe: [00:27:05] My mother annoys me. I still love her. Your mother annoys you Michelle.

Michelle: [00:27:11] Just the little.

Gabe: [00:27:12] Just a little.

Gabe: [00:27:14] And.

Michelle: [00:27:15] I still love her.

Gabe: [00:27:16] Yes.

Gabe: [00:27:17] So the people in a support group you will find that common ground and you don’t have to be best friends. In fact, I discourage going to a support group to make friends should go to a support group to get support. It doesn’t mean that a friendship won’t come out of it but that should not be your goal your goal should be to attentively listen. And your goal should be to truthfully share and if you do that, I think that you’ll get a lot out of it. So, if you are afraid to go find a buddy and go even if the body just sits outside or just go on your own. Talk to the facilitator let him know you’re scared show up early so that you’re there before the big group gets there and tell the facilitator that you’re nervous.

Michelle: [00:27:51] You can always change your name too.

Gabe: [00:27:53] There is most all the groups that I did. Everybody went by their first name and you’re right. We didn’t I didn’t I didn’t card anybody. So maybe everybody’s name was wrong.

Gabe: [00:28:02] I don’t know.

Michelle: [00:28:03] I mean you can change your name you cannot say what your job is.

Gabe: [00:28:07] Yes.

Michelle: [00:28:08] Just share only what you want to share. There’s one issue you want to talk about. You can only talk if you would make us only talk about that issue. That’s what you want to speak about you’re forced to say anything you don’t want to say.

Gabe: [00:28:19] Exactly. You can share as much as you want or as little as you want. All that’s required is honesty. It’s not full disclosure. And I think that people miss that sometimes they think that it’s some sort of an interrogation. It’s not. It’s participation at your speed at your rate. And if the support group isn’t working out for you don’t go back. There’s nothing wrong with that. If I am very lucky as are you Michelle because we live in big cities there’s dozens of support groups. So when I didn’t like one I just joined another one. If that’s the case for you know support group shop. If you only have the one you might have to work a little harder to make it work. But I really encourage support groups and finally the last thing that we want to say is PsychCentral.com has a ton on of online support groups. I like the in person one’s certainly better. The advantage of the online ones is they’re open 24 hours a day. They’re available when you need them. It’s kind of like a drop in center for online. So visit sites PsychCentral.com. Join the support groups and just have a blast. Those groups are really awesome and they don’t pelt you with advertising or ask you for a bunch of stuff either. So we really love Psych Central here at A Bipolar, A Schizophrenic And A Podcast.

Gabe: [00:29:31] Michelle Are we out?

Michelle: [00:29:33] I think we’re out.

Gabe: [00:29:34] Thank you everybody for tuning in. Remember you can head over to store.PsychCentral.com and pick up a Define Normal shirt when they’re gone their gone unless of course we order more or you can run over to PsychCentral.com. Join a support group read great articles everything over there is free and they are a very generous supporter.

Gabe: [00:29:51] Of this podcast. We’ll see everybody next week.

Narrator: [00:29:56] You’ve been listening to a bipolar a schizophrenic kind of podcast. If you love this episode don’t keep it to yourself head over to iTunes or your preferred podcast app to subscribe rate and review to work with Gabe go to GabeHoward.com. To work with Michelle go to Schizophrenic.NYC. For free mental health resources and online support groups. Head over to PsychCentral.com Show’s official Web site PsychCentrald.com/bsp you can e-mail us at [email protected]. Thank you for listening and share widely.

  Meet Your Bipolar and Schizophrenic Hosts

GABE HOWARD was formally diagnosed with bipolar and anxiety disorders after being committed to a psychiatric hospital in 2003. Now in recovery, Gabe is a prominent mental health activist and host of the award-winning Psych Central Show podcast. He is also an award-winning writer and speaker, traveling nationally to share the humorous, yet educational, story of his bipolar life. To work with Gabe, visit gabehoward.com.

  MICHELLE HAMMER was officially diagnosed with schizophrenia at age 22, but incorrectly diagnosed with bipolar disorder at 18. Michelle is an award-winning mental health advocate who has been featured in press all over the world. In May 2015, Michelle founded the company Schizophrenic.NYC, a mental health clothing line, with the mission of reducing stigma by starting conversations about mental health. She is a firm believer that confidence can get you anywhere. To work with Michelle, visit Schizophrenic.NYC.

from World of Psychology https://psychcentral.com/blog/podcast-support-groups-for-mental-illness-what-are-they/

Podcast: Comfort Zones Aren’t Where We Grow



Today’s guest has a simple plan for radical life changes: Step outside of your comfort zone.  Lucia Giovannini is a former supermodel-turned-psychologist whose new book advises that the path to a meaningful life lies in stretching our intellectual and emotional abilities.  Lucia believes that making a concentrated effort to learn and grow on a daily basis can make you a happier person, and help you realize your true potential. And isn’t that the goal of a well-lived life?

Listen in as Lucia gives easy, practical tips for expanding your horizons, reaching the best of your abilities, using your talents to serve the world, and finding inner happiness.

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

Guest information for ‘Comfort Zone’ Podcast Episode

Lucia Giovannini is world renowned sensation, a former international Italian supermodel – turned transformational speaker and author of 13 books.  Her newest book, A Whole New Life, has been translated into 8 languages, and is available in English from Post Hill Press, a Simon & Schuster imprint.  

Her 25 years of inspiring work through conferences &  has been influenced by growing up throughout different parts of Italy and Africa, immersed in the beauty and the pain of those unforgettable lands. Her work crafts a synergy between traditional psychological techniques, motivational practices, and ancient eastern rituals that turns her seminars into profound experiences for Asian and European audiences alike. Lucia holds a doctorate in psychology and counseling, a bachelor’s degree in psychoanthropology, and is an international affiliate of the American Psychology Association. Please visit her online at https://www.luciagiovannini.com/

About The Psych Central Podcast Host

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. To learn more about Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Comfort Zone’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: Welcome to the Psych Central Podcast, where each episode features guest experts discussing psychology and mental health in everyday plain language. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Welcome to this week’s episode of the Psych Central Podcast. Calling into the show today, we have Lucia Giovannini, a former Italian supermodel who holds a doctorate in psychology and counseling and a bachelors in psychoanthropology and is a member of the American Psychological Association. Lucia, welcome to the show.

Lucia Giovannini: Gabe, I am really honored to be here.

Gabe Howard: I am extremely excited to talk to you about our subject, which is stepping outside your comfort zone. But before we get started, I really just want to ask �� What’s it like to go from an Italian supermodel to a doctorate? For some reason in our culture, we tend to think of those things as mutually exclusive. But obviously, they’re not.

Lucia Giovannini: Well, yeah. Well, for me, it was actually stepping out of my comfort zone. I started working as a model, and then it soon became a full-time career. And at the beginning it was awesome. So I moved to Milan, and I was living in a beautiful house. I was traveling the world, et cetera, et cetera. But after a while, a short while, I started feeling depressed because since I was a child, I’ve always felt a deep calling for creating a better world, not just for us humans, but also for the other beings that share this planet with us like animals, trees, mother earth. And so really listening to this call again, and I had to do this going through a depression, sadly. But the depression was actually a wakeup call for me. So in order to follow my true calling, I had to leave everything that I had created so far — my house, my career, my marriage, at that point. So it was really stepping out of my comfort zone.

Gabe Howard: When you talk about stepping out of your comfort zone, do you literally just mean doing something that makes you uncomfortable or is it — is it deeper than that?

Lucia Giovannini: Definitely doing something that makes me uncomfortable, but it’s even more than that. In my case, for example, I was scared to death to let go of all my certainties. And so it’s really going beyond fear, going beyond all your conditioning beliefs that say you won’t make it, you are not good enough, you will not be able to survive, et cetera, et cetera. So it’s really uncovering new territories or traveling in, you know, new paths.

Gabe Howard: Did the people around you see this as concerning or a cry for help or self sabotage? Going from, you know, modeling and like you said, all that glamour over to academia, which again, people see as really two different worlds. So was there concern from the people around you that you were running away or abandoning something that used to be important to you?

Lucia Giovannini: Well, they actually thought I was crazy. I tried to speak, you know, with my husband at that time, and he said, well, seek help because there’s something wrong with you. Then I spoke to my friends, my co-workers, the other models, or photographers, or you know, fashion designers who are my friends. And all of them said, “Well, you know, I think there’s something wrong with you. Please seek help, seek professional help.” So it was really difficult. And even after I took that decision and I let everything go, all my friends abandoned me because they thought I had gone crazy. So that was the other harder part. One hard part was, you know, the money and the other, the other part was my friends and all the people around me, because they couldn’t understand that depression was a reality. My soul talking to me, trying to reach me and signaling me that there was a new path there for me.

Gabe Howard: And we can kind of see why we hold it, you know, beauty and glamour and money and fame in very high regard. So on one hand, I think they may have been concerned because after all, something that used to be important to you, you have now lost interest in. And then, of course, there’s that societal pressure of probably a lot of people wanted to be you. So they couldn’t understand why you were walking away from something that they saw as so desirable. Do you think for people out there who are walking away from something that they’ve spent a lot of time and effort in, that the reaction of their friends and family and support system is a barrier to them moving on?

Lucia Giovannini: Well, yeah, definitely, because, I mean, we as humans are social animals, so it’s not that we cannot make it alone. Of course we can. But it’s much more difficult if we don’t have a support system. And if all the people around us — our best friends, our partner, our family — doesn’t understand, you know, what we are going through, it’s not easy. And of course, in my case, I also doubted myself. Apparently, I had it all. So I also started out in myself thinking, have I really gone crazy? You know, am I really throwing away everything good that there is in my life? I mean, I was looking around me and all the other people seemed happy, my co-workers seemed happy, the other models, my husband seemed happy, at that time, my husband was a fashion model as well. So why are they happy? Why for them, it’s OK and it’s not for me? If the people around you don’t support you, it’s also easy that you start doubting yourself as well.

Gabe Howard: Obviously, we just met and I know it turned out okay for you and I know you’re doing wonderful things and great things, and I know that more importantly, you’re much happier now. But even as I’m listening to you, I’m thinking, oh, man, I don’t know. That’s a lot to give up. So I imagine that many people, when stepping outside their comfort zone, feel exactly the same way. What are some ways to get over that barrier or what are some ways to not only step outside of your comfort zone, but to do so when a lot of people — and people who are very meaningful to you — really aren’t backing that plan?

Lucia Giovannini: So I normally advise people to ask some coaching questions: What is the cost for me to stay in this situation? We normally focus on the cost that we pay to follow our dreams. We normally ask ourselves, OK, but if I do that, like if I leave my job, if I leave this relationship? If I don’t, I’ll leave my home town. What will be the cost that I will pay? I will have no money. I will have no friends, will fail, etc, etc. But we seldom focus on another question which is far more important. And it is — what is the cost that I’m paying if I stay here? If I stay in a job that I don’t like anymore? If I stay in a relationship that has nothing more to offer? If I stay in a situation that is my comfort zone but doesn’t make me grow, doesn’t nurture me anymore? Once you realize that the cost that you are paying is so high, then it really gives you a good motivation to go out of your comfort zone. Another thing is really to ask another coaching question, which is: If I didn’t have fear, if I didn’t feel fear, what would I do? Because normally we let fear advise us instead of letting love be our advisor. Normally we make decisions out of fear rather than making decisions out of love. And so that’s another new paradigm.

Gabe Howard: I really like what you said there. There’s a meme on Facebook that I really like and that says “Instead of imagining what could go wrong, imagine what could go right.” We’re afraid. We don’t want it to happen. It’s uncomfortable. It feels poorly. And we allow that to stop us from getting to the thing that feels positive or good or extraordinary. And then we end up sort of like right in the middle, right? Where we’re no longer afraid, but we’re also not excited. We’re safe. And that’s what a comfort zone is. Right?

Lucia Giovannini: Yeah. Actually, I think we should call it discomfort zone rather than comfort zone, because it becomes a prison after awhile. I mean, for me, I wasn’t so courageous to jump out of my comfort zone immediately. I spent, like, at least a couple of years, if not more, you know, in that depression, trying to get this thing changed. Lying to myself. Keeping on telling myself that I didn’t have any clarity on what I wanted. But internally I was very clear on what I wanted. It was just that it was too difficult to admit it even for myself. So I stayed in that discomfort zone for, like, a long time, and it became a prison. And this prison, it suffocates you. It takes all your energy, all your vitality. And so we call it the comfort zone. But it should really be called discomfort zone.

Gabe Howard: We’ll be right back after we hear from our sponsor.

Announcer: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com. Secure, convenient, and affordable online counseling. Our counselors are licensed, accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions, plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face to face session. Go to BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counseling is right for you. BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral.

Gabe Howard: We are back talking about ways to improve your life by stepping outside of your comfort zone. I think the idea of having safety can be a prison. And I think that that is really what is going to maybe challenge the audience, because the audience is going to think to themselves, wait a minute, if you’re saying that I’m safe, I’m in prison. Can you expand on that? And in a way to let people know that just because you’re safe or mediocre or OK, that doesn’t mean that you’re excelling or succeeding. It just means that you’re safe. And that “safe” isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not necessarily a good thing either.

Lucia Giovannini: Well, I’d like to quote Maslow, you know, Abraham Maslow, the great psychologist of the last century?

Gabe Howard: Yes. 

Lucia Giovannini: He used to say that if you plan to not choose your capacities, if you plan to play safe, plan not to stretch yourself, you’ll be unhappy for your whole life. Of course, I’m not saying that we should jump off the cliff with no parachute or do stupid things. But the idea is to stretch ourselves because otherwise we can’t grow. Exactly the same as, you know, when we go to the gym. Say we lift weights — after a while, we need to increase the weights. Otherwise, we don’t train our muscles. If we train for a marathon or even just, you know, running after a while, maybe we started running five minutes and then we run in 10 minutes, then we run 15 minutes, then half an hour. Then we run faster because that’s the way we train. If we keep on running just for five minutes at the same speed for a year, then we are not really training. And that is so obvious when we talk about sports. But the same principle here applies to our inner world. If we don’t stretch ourselves, we don’t grow. And if we don’t grow, we don’t develop our capacities. And if we don’t develop our capacities, we’ll never know the full expression of our talents — we’ll never be self-actualized. I think the meaning of a life — of a human life — is really to use our capacities, our talents, to serve the world in some ways, to serve the communities. And so the only way to do that is really to stretch ourselves, to train ourselves. And in order to do that, we need to do new things to train exactly as we would in the physical sense.

Gabe Howard: Thank you so much. And I couldn’t agree more, and in preparing for this interview, I read a whole bunch of things that you wrote and one of the articles was stepping outside of your comfort zone. And it was a… it’s a short little article, and it has three things in there that you can do to step outside of your comfort zone. One of them is trust your gut. And I understand that and I’ve heard it before. And one of them was believe in yourself. And that makes sense. I understand why we have to believe in ourselves. But the one that really caught my eye and I’d like you to talk a little more on is the very first one. And it said do something ordinary in a non-ordinary way.

Lucia Giovannini: Yeah. So the idea there is to really let go of your fear of being judged by other people and to train yourself with little things like, for example, you could wear a pair of shoes of different colors or open your umbrella on a sunny day. Do something that is really ordinary but in a different way. So you will be, may be, judged by other people, but you just don’t care. You will catch the attention of other people, but it’s OK, because one of the limitations that we self-impose on ourselves is that we want to please other people, that we don’t want to be different from others. And yet our capacities and our talents are in our uniqueness. So if we don’t do things because of our fear of judgment, then we are limiting ourselves. And so this little exercise… and it can be, I don’t know, sing out loud, you know, while you are walking on the street. Just sing your preferred song and sing it out loud. It may be, you know, little things or even ask people favors, like, even people that you don’t know so well or your co-workers. But ask them weird favors like “Would you buy me a holiday?” They would look at you and say, “Have you gone nuts?” But it’s okay, because then you can say, it’s OK, I’m just, you know, doing an exercise. But the idea is really to be OK with other people’s judgment. To be OK if other people say no to you. So you’re more free to really be yourself.

Gabe Howard: One of the examples that you used in your article was brush your teeth with the wrong hand. So if you normally use your right hand, use your left hand. And I did this. I went ahead and brushed my teeth with the “wrong” hand. It was very difficult to do. And it took an ordinary habit, something like brushing my teeth. And it turned it into this, you know, 5-minute exercise and/or ordeal. It made something ordinary, non ordinary.

Lucia Giovannini: Absolutely. And this has also got to do with our awareness because we humans are creatures of habit. So, for example, we always brush our teeth in the same way. We don’t put our awareness on brushing our teeth, and that’s OK. But the exercise is precisely because then when you brush your teeth with your non-dominant hand, then of course you need to put your attention into that, and so that’s how we slowly, slowly change our habits. The same goes with — for example, it’s normal to wear our shoes when we go out — but when you wear two different sets of shoes like one in one color, and the other one of a different color, then you’ve done something different. Then you are more aware, you know, of how you dress, of the people looking at you. And then it brings your awareness to your everyday habit. And so once you’re more aware, you also can start deciding to add new habits. So you are doing new things instead of keeping on with your routine.

Gabe Howard: The other article that I loved was the 21-day challenge, and you give 10 examples of things that you can do over those 21 days. And there are some expected things in there, you know, exercise at least 20 minutes every day, improve your diet, throw away things that you don’t need anymore. And I think a lot of people can really relate to those. We see that a lot. And then there was a couple of suggestions that I think — while not as obvious as diet and exercise — I think people can really relate to, you know, like learn something new, or use positive words instead of negative words or be more creative. But there were three in that list that really gave me a moment to pause. The first one was: Do something for yourself early in the morning.

Lucia Giovannini: Yeah, because we are all so used to being good parents, being good partners, being good daughters or sons, being good workers. In other words, do our duty. And that’s OK, of course. But at the same time, we risk to spend a whole day doing things for others or doing what we have to do instead of what we really want to do. And so we risk of getting at night with some resentment within us, with some sensation that, you know, we’ve been running the whole day without really taking care of ourselves. If we start the day doing something for ourselves first and then we go about doing our life. We all have a vase full of love and that love can flow to the others as well. What if that vase is not full of love for ourselves first? We don’t have anything to offer, to really offer, to other people. It starts the day in a totally different energy.

Gabe Howard: And of course, the flipside to that, which sort of goes along with doing something for yourself early in the morning, is before going to bed, spend 10 minutes to think about what went well during the day. We tend to hold onto the negativity, right? Is that kind of the logic of patting yourself on the back?

Lucia Giovannini: Well, it’s even more than that. As you said, our minds are programmed to focus on the negative. Our reptilian brain is primed to do that. And so we really need to do something to use our awareness and our intention to do something to steer the wheel of our brain in a different direction. It’s also that when we start focusing on the positive, then we feel more motivated to go on with our projects. Otherwise, if we always focus on what’s not working, we lose interest and we lose motivation. We lose energy. And then we decide, why should I care? Nothing works.

Gabe Howard: The most exciting one on the list and one that I personally have never thought of for happiness, stepping outside of your comfort zone, improving your life: Teach something every day. Share your gifts with other people.

Lucia Giovannini: Yes, there are many reasons here. So one reason is the best way to learn something is to teach it, because of course, when we teach something, we need to know it well. For example, if we teach someone — let’s say our kids, or a friend, to be positive — we need to train our positivity. Otherwise we wouldn’t be able to teach it. And so that forces us, you know, to learn something new. And also the other reason here is to share our knowledge, to share our experiences. To, in a way, try to make a difference in the world. And when I talk about the world, I mean, our community, our family, our co-workers, our friends, or even the bigger world out there, the idea is really to share your talents, your gifts with the world, with someone else — to feel that our presence is useful.

Gabe Howard: It has been great speaking with you, and I really appreciate all the information that you’ve given us.

Lucia Giovannini: Thank you, Gabe. It was amazing.

Gabe Howard: Where can our listeners find you?

Lucia Giovannini: So they can find me in my website, which is my name, basically, www.LuciaGiovannini.com. L U C I A G I O V A N N I N I dot com. And alsofind a free gift, a five-part video series on change, on how to create the changes we want in our life. And there they can also find my book, A Whole New Life.

Gabe Howard: Thank you so much for being on this show, we really appreciate you and we appreciate all of our listeners as well. Please don’t forget to give us a review on whatever podcast player you found us on. While we like five stars, we also like it if you use your words. You can also head over to our Facebook group at Psych Central.com/FBshow. That’ll take you right in. Join and I’ll approve you and you can talk to me and suggest anything that you want. And remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counseling anytime, anywhere, simply by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We will see everybody next week.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Psych Central Podcast. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/show or on your favorite podcast player. To learn more about our host, Gabe Howard, please visit his website at GabeHoward.com. PsychCentral.com is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals. Overseen by Dr. John Grohol, PsychCentral.com offers trusted resources and quizzes to help answer your questions about mental health, personality, psychotherapy, and more. Please visit us today at PsychCentral.com. If you have feedback about the show, please email [email protected]. Thank you for listening, and please share widely.

from World of Psychology https://ift.tt/2Zxzd5P via IFTTT

Podcast: Comfort Zones Aren’t Where We Grow



Today’s guest has a simple plan for radical life changes: Step outside of your comfort zone.  Lucia Giovannini is a former supermodel-turned-psychologist whose new book advises that the path to a meaningful life lies in stretching our intellectual and emotional abilities.  Lucia believes that making a concentrated effort to learn and grow on a daily basis can make you a happier person, and help you realize your true potential. And isn’t that the goal of a well-lived life?

Listen in as Lucia gives easy, practical tips for expanding your horizons, reaching the best of your abilities, using your talents to serve the world, and finding inner happiness.

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW

Guest information for ‘Comfort Zone’ Podcast Episode

Lucia Giovannini is world renowned sensation, a former international Italian supermodel – turned transformational speaker and author of 13 books.  Her newest book, A Whole New Life, has been translated into 8 languages, and is available in English from Post Hill Press, a Simon & Schuster imprint.  

Her 25 years of inspiring work through conferences &  has been influenced by growing up throughout different parts of Italy and Africa, immersed in the beauty and the pain of those unforgettable lands. Her work crafts a synergy between traditional psychological techniques, motivational practices, and ancient eastern rituals that turns her seminars into profound experiences for Asian and European audiences alike. Lucia holds a doctorate in psychology and counseling, a bachelor’s degree in psychoanthropology, and is an international affiliate of the American Psychology Association. Please visit her online at https://www.luciagiovannini.com/

About The Psych Central Podcast Host

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. To learn more about Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.

Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Comfort Zone’ Episode

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: Welcome to the Psych Central Podcast, where each episode features guest experts discussing psychology and mental health in everyday plain language. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Welcome to this week’s episode of the Psych Central Podcast. Calling into the show today, we have Lucia Giovannini, a former Italian supermodel who holds a doctorate in psychology and counseling and a bachelors in psychoanthropology and is a member of the American Psychological Association. Lucia, welcome to the show.

Lucia Giovannini: Gabe, I am really honored to be here.

Gabe Howard: I am extremely excited to talk to you about our subject, which is stepping outside your comfort zone. But before we get started, I really just want to ask — What’s it like to go from an Italian supermodel to a doctorate? For some reason in our culture, we tend to think of those things as mutually exclusive. But obviously, they’re not.

Lucia Giovannini: Well, yeah. Well, for me, it was actually stepping out of my comfort zone. I started working as a model, and then it soon became a full-time career. And at the beginning it was awesome. So I moved to Milan, and I was living in a beautiful house. I was traveling the world, et cetera, et cetera. But after a while, a short while, I started feeling depressed because since I was a child, I’ve always felt a deep calling for creating a better world, not just for us humans, but also for the other beings that share this planet with us like animals, trees, mother earth. And so really listening to this call again, and I had to do this going through a depression, sadly. But the depression was actually a wakeup call for me. So in order to follow my true calling, I had to leave everything that I had created so far — my house, my career, my marriage, at that point. So it was really stepping out of my comfort zone.

Gabe Howard: When you talk about stepping out of your comfort zone, do you literally just mean doing something that makes you uncomfortable or is it — is it deeper than that?

Lucia Giovannini: Definitely doing something that makes me uncomfortable, but it’s even more than that. In my case, for example, I was scared to death to let go of all my certainties. And so it’s really going beyond fear, going beyond all your conditioning beliefs that say you won’t make it, you are not good enough, you will not be able to survive, et cetera, et cetera. So it’s really uncovering new territories or traveling in, you know, new paths.

Gabe Howard: Did the people around you see this as concerning or a cry for help or self sabotage? Going from, you know, modeling and like you said, all that glamour over to academia, which again, people see as really two different worlds. So was there concern from the people around you that you were running away or abandoning something that used to be important to you?

Lucia Giovannini: Well, they actually thought I was crazy. I tried to speak, you know, with my husband at that time, and he said, well, seek help because there’s something wrong with you. Then I spoke to my friends, my co-workers, the other models, or photographers, or you know, fashion designers who are my friends. And all of them said, “Well, you know, I think there’s something wrong with you. Please seek help, seek professional help.” So it was really difficult. And even after I took that decision and I let everything go, all my friends abandoned me because they thought I had gone crazy. So that was the other harder part. One hard part was, you know, the money and the other, the other part was my friends and all the people around me, because they couldn’t understand that depression was a reality. My soul talking to me, trying to reach me and signaling me that there was a new path there for me.

Gabe Howard: And we can kind of see why we hold it, you know, beauty and glamour and money and fame in very high regard. So on one hand, I think they may have been concerned because after all, something that used to be important to you, you have now lost interest in. And then, of course, there’s that societal pressure of probably a lot of people wanted to be you. So they couldn’t understand why you were walking away from something that they saw as so desirable. Do you think for people out there who are walking away from something that they’ve spent a lot of time and effort in, that the reaction of their friends and family and support system is a barrier to them moving on?

Lucia Giovannini: Well, yeah, definitely, because, I mean, we as humans are social animals, so it’s not that we cannot make it alone. Of course we can. But it’s much more difficult if we don’t have a support system. And if all the people around us — our best friends, our partner, our family — doesn’t understand, you know, what we are going through, it’s not easy. And of course, in my case, I also doubted myself. Apparently, I had it all. So I also started out in myself thinking, have I really gone crazy? You know, am I really throwing away everything good that there is in my life? I mean, I was looking around me and all the other people seemed happy, my co-workers seemed happy, the other models, my husband seemed happy, at that time, my husband was a fashion model as well. So why are they happy? Why for them, it’s OK and it’s not for me? If the people around you don’t support you, it’s also easy that you start doubting yourself as well.

Gabe Howard: Obviously, we just met and I know it turned out okay for you and I know you’re doing wonderful things and great things, and I know that more importantly, you’re much happier now. But even as I’m listening to you, I’m thinking, oh, man, I don’t know. That’s a lot to give up. So I imagine that many people, when stepping outside their comfort zone, feel exactly the same way. What are some ways to get over that barrier or what are some ways to not only step outside of your comfort zone, but to do so when a lot of people — and people who are very meaningful to you — really aren’t backing that plan?

Lucia Giovannini: So I normally advise people to ask some coaching questions: What is the cost for me to stay in this situation? We normally focus on the cost that we pay to follow our dreams. We normally ask ourselves, OK, but if I do that, like if I leave my job, if I leave this relationship? If I don’t, I’ll leave my home town. What will be the cost that I will pay? I will have no money. I will have no friends, will fail, etc, etc. But we seldom focus on another question which is far more important. And it is — what is the cost that I’m paying if I stay here? If I stay in a job that I don’t like anymore? If I stay in a relationship that has nothing more to offer? If I stay in a situation that is my comfort zone but doesn’t make me grow, doesn’t nurture me anymore? Once you realize that the cost that you are paying is so high, then it really gives you a good motivation to go out of your comfort zone. Another thing is really to ask another coaching question, which is: If I didn’t have fear, if I didn’t feel fear, what would I do? Because normally we let fear advise us instead of letting love be our advisor. Normally we make decisions out of fear rather than making decisions out of love. And so that’s another new paradigm.

Gabe Howard: I really like what you said there. There’s a meme on Facebook that I really like and that says “Instead of imagining what could go wrong, imagine what could go right.” We’re afraid. We don’t want it to happen. It’s uncomfortable. It feels poorly. And we allow that to stop us from getting to the thing that feels positive or good or extraordinary. And then we end up sort of like right in the middle, right? Where we’re no longer afraid, but we’re also not excited. We’re safe. And that’s what a comfort zone is. Right?

Lucia Giovannini: Yeah. Actually, I think we should call it discomfort zone rather than comfort zone, because it becomes a prison after awhile. I mean, for me, I wasn’t so courageous to jump out of my comfort zone immediately. I spent, like, at least a couple of years, if not more, you know, in that depression, trying to get this thing changed. Lying to myself. Keeping on telling myself that I didn’t have any clarity on what I wanted. But internally I was very clear on what I wanted. It was just that it was too difficult to admit it even for myself. So I stayed in that discomfort zone for, like, a long time, and it became a prison. And this prison, it suffocates you. It takes all your energy, all your vitality. And so we call it the comfort zone. But it should really be called discomfort zone.

Gabe Howard: We’ll be right back after we hear from our sponsor.

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Gabe Howard: We are back talking about ways to improve your life by stepping outside of your comfort zone. I think the idea of having safety can be a prison. And I think that that is really what is going to maybe challenge the audience, because the audience is going to think to themselves, wait a minute, if you’re saying that I’m safe, I’m in prison. Can you expand on that? And in a way to let people know that just because you’re safe or mediocre or OK, that doesn’t mean that you’re excelling or succeeding. It just means that you’re safe. And that “safe” isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not necessarily a good thing either.

Lucia Giovannini: Well, I’d like to quote Maslow, you know, Abraham Maslow, the great psychologist of the last century?

Gabe Howard: Yes. 

Lucia Giovannini: He used to say that if you plan to not choose your capacities, if you plan to play safe, plan not to stretch yourself, you’ll be unhappy for your whole life. Of course, I’m not saying that we should jump off the cliff with no parachute or do stupid things. But the idea is to stretch ourselves because otherwise we can’t grow. Exactly the same as, you know, when we go to the gym. Say we lift weights — after a while, we need to increase the weights. Otherwise, we don’t train our muscles. If we train for a marathon or even just, you know, running after a while, maybe we started running five minutes and then we run in 10 minutes, then we run 15 minutes, then half an hour. Then we run faster because that’s the way we train. If we keep on running just for five minutes at the same speed for a year, then we are not really training. And that is so obvious when we talk about sports. But the same principle here applies to our inner world. If we don’t stretch ourselves, we don’t grow. And if we don’t grow, we don’t develop our capacities. And if we don’t develop our capacities, we’ll never know the full expression of our talents — we’ll never be self-actualized. I think the meaning of a life — of a human life — is really to use our capacities, our talents, to serve the world in some ways, to serve the communities. And so the only way to do that is really to stretch ourselves, to train ourselves. And in order to do that, we need to do new things to train exactly as we would in the physical sense.

Gabe Howard: Thank you so much. And I couldn’t agree more, and in preparing for this interview, I read a whole bunch of things that you wrote and one of the articles was stepping outside of your comfort zone. And it was a… it’s a short little article, and it has three things in there that you can do to step outside of your comfort zone. One of them is trust your gut. And I understand that and I’ve heard it before. And one of them was believe in yourself. And that makes sense. I understand why we have to believe in ourselves. But the one that really caught my eye and I’d like you to talk a little more on is the very first one. And it said do something ordinary in a non-ordinary way.

Lucia Giovannini: Yeah. So the idea there is to really let go of your fear of being judged by other people and to train yourself with little things like, for example, you could wear a pair of shoes of different colors or open your umbrella on a sunny day. Do something that is really ordinary but in a different way. So you will be, may be, judged by other people, but you just don’t care. You will catch the attention of other people, but it’s OK, because one of the limitations that we self-impose on ourselves is that we want to please other people, that we don’t want to be different from others. And yet our capacities and our talents are in our uniqueness. So if we don’t do things because of our fear of judgment, then we are limiting ourselves. And so this little exercise… and it can be, I don’t know, sing out loud, you know, while you are walking on the street. Just sing your preferred song and sing it out loud. It may be, you know, little things or even ask people favors, like, even people that you don’t know so well or your co-workers. But ask them weird favors like “Would you buy me a holiday?” They would look at you and say, “Have you gone nuts?” But it’s okay, because then you can say, it’s OK, I’m just, you know, doing an exercise. But the idea is really to be OK with other people’s judgment. To be OK if other people say no to you. So you’re more free to really be yourself.

Gabe Howard: One of the examples that you used in your article was brush your teeth with the wrong hand. So if you normally use your right hand, use your left hand. And I did this. I went ahead and brushed my teeth with the “wrong” hand. It was very difficult to do. And it took an ordinary habit, something like brushing my teeth. And it turned it into this, you know, 5-minute exercise and/or ordeal. It made something ordinary, non ordinary.

Lucia Giovannini: Absolutely. And this has also got to do with our awareness because we humans are creatures of habit. So, for example, we always brush our teeth in the same way. We don’t put our awareness on brushing our teeth, and that’s OK. But the exercise is precisely because then when you brush your teeth with your non-dominant hand, then of course you need to put your attention into that, and so that’s how we slowly, slowly change our habits. The same goes with — for example, it’s normal to wear our shoes when we go out — but when you wear two different sets of shoes like one in one color, and the other one of a different color, then you’ve done something different. Then you are more aware, you know, of how you dress, of the people looking at you. And then it brings your awareness to your everyday habit. And so once you’re more aware, you also can start deciding to add new habits. So you are doing new things instead of keeping on with your routine.

Gabe Howard: The other article that I loved was the 21-day challenge, and you give 10 examples of things that you can do over those 21 days. And there are some expected things in there, you know, exercise at least 20 minutes every day, improve your diet, throw away things that you don’t need anymore. And I think a lot of people can really relate to those. We see that a lot. And then there was a couple of suggestions that I think — while not as obvious as diet and exercise — I think people can really relate to, you know, like learn something new, or use positive words instead of negative words or be more creative. But there were three in that list that really gave me a moment to pause. The first one was: Do something for yourself early in the morning.

Lucia Giovannini: Yeah, because we are all so used to being good parents, being good partners, being good daughters or sons, being good workers. In other words, do our duty. And that’s OK, of course. But at the same time, we risk to spend a whole day doing things for others or doing what we have to do instead of what we really want to do. And so we risk of getting at night with some resentment within us, with some sensation that, you know, we’ve been running the whole day without really taking care of ourselves. If we start the day doing something for ourselves first and then we go about doing our life. We all have a vase full of love and that love can flow to the others as well. What if that vase is not full of love for ourselves first? We don’t have anything to offer, to really offer, to other people. It starts the day in a totally different energy.

Gabe Howard: And of course, the flipside to that, which sort of goes along with doing something for yourself early in the morning, is before going to bed, spend 10 minutes to think about what went well during the day. We tend to hold onto the negativity, right? Is that kind of the logic of patting yourself on the back?

Lucia Giovannini: Well, it’s even more than that. As you said, our minds are programmed to focus on the negative. Our reptilian brain is primed to do that. And so we really need to do something to use our awareness and our intention to do something to steer the wheel of our brain in a different direction. It’s also that when we start focusing on the positive, then we feel more motivated to go on with our projects. Otherwise, if we always focus on what’s not working, we lose interest and we lose motivation. We lose energy. And then we decide, why should I care? Nothing works.

Gabe Howard: The most exciting one on the list and one that I personally have never thought of for happiness, stepping outside of your comfort zone, improving your life: Teach something every day. Share your gifts with other people.

Lucia Giovannini: Yes, there are many reasons here. So one reason is the best way to learn something is to teach it, because of course, when we teach something, we need to know it well. For example, if we teach someone — let’s say our kids, or a friend, to be positive — we need to train our positivity. Otherwise we wouldn’t be able to teach it. And so that forces us, you know, to learn something new. And also the other reason here is to share our knowledge, to share our experiences. To, in a way, try to make a difference in the world. And when I talk about the world, I mean, our community, our family, our co-workers, our friends, or even the bigger world out there, the idea is really to share your talents, your gifts with the world, with someone else — to feel that our presence is useful.

Gabe Howard: It has been great speaking with you, and I really appreciate all the information that you’ve given us.

Lucia Giovannini: Thank you, Gabe. It was amazing.

Gabe Howard: Where can our listeners find you?

Lucia Giovannini: So they can find me in my website, which is my name, basically, www.LuciaGiovannini.com. L U C I A G I O V A N N I N I dot com. And alsofind a free gift, a five-part video series on change, on how to create the changes we want in our life. And there they can also find my book, A Whole New Life.

Gabe Howard: Thank you so much for being on this show, we really appreciate you and we appreciate all of our listeners as well. Please don’t forget to give us a review on whatever podcast player you found us on. While we like five stars, we also like it if you use your words. You can also head over to our Facebook group at Psych Central.com/FBshow. That’ll take you right in. Join and I’ll approve you and you can talk to me and suggest anything that you want. And remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counseling anytime, anywhere, simply by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We will see everybody next week.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Psych Central Podcast. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/show or on your favorite podcast player. To learn more about our host, Gabe Howard, please visit his website at GabeHoward.com. PsychCentral.com is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals. Overseen by Dr. John Grohol, PsychCentral.com offers trusted resources and quizzes to help answer your questions about mental health, personality, psychotherapy, and more. Please visit us today at PsychCentral.com. If you have feedback about the show, please email [email protected]. Thank you for listening, and please share widely.

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Podcast: Support Groups for Mental Illness – What are They?



Most people understand how doctors and therapists work, but many people can’t quite wrap their minds around support groups – especially peer-led ones. In this episode, our hosts dissect different types of support groups to make them better understood and more accessible. Listen Now!

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“[Mental Illness] Support groups are like a buffet — take what you want and leave the rest.” – Gabe Howard

  Highlights From ‘Mental Illness Support Groups’ Episode

[1:00] Lets talk about support groups.

[3:00] Fountain House in NYC is awesome!

[6:00] Why it’s great to be around like-minded people.

[8:00] Support groups in hospitals.

[12:00] Peer-run support groups, hints and tips.

[18:00] Gabe became a support group facilitator — what does that mean?

[25:00] Sometimes people come to support groups just to listen.

[26:00] Gabe and Michelle recommend support groups to listen and share.

[28:00] Don’t like your support group? You can find another!

Computer Generated Transcript for ‘Support Groups for Mental Illness – What are They?’ Show

Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Narrator: [00:00:09] For reasons that utterly escapes Everyone involved. You’re listening to A Bipolar, A Schizophrenic and A Podcast. Here are your hosts, Gabe Howard and Michelle Hammer. Thank you for tuning into A Bipolar, A Schizophrenic and A Podcast.

Gabe: [00:00:22] I’m Gabe, I have bipolar.

Michelle: [00:00:24] Hi I’m Michelle I’m schizophrenic.

Gabe: [00:00:26] And today we’re going to try to give some helpful information and maybe demystify things like support groups peer support groups support groups read by medical staff like social workers or doctors kind of talk about our experiences we’ve heard from others and just try to tie it up at a nice little bow. For those of you who are sitting there thinking Should I go to a group support group and what’s it going to be like and huh.

Michelle: [00:00:57] You’ve been to a a lot of support groups right Gabe?

Gabe: [00:00:59] I personally love support groups. I’ve been to all forms I’ve been to the ones led by a psychologist. I’ve been to ones led by social workers. I’ve been to ones led by peer supporters. Yeah, I am a I’m a big big believer and I go to a drop-in center which is run by people with mental illness and addiction for people with mental illness and addiction to drop in. So, it’s not exactly a support group but it’s still a group setting for people with mental illness and or addiction to kind of chill.

Michelle: [00:01:34] Yeah I do that too when I go to Fountain House in New York City. It’s kind of just like a clubhouse for people with mental illness and it’s not necessarily group therapy but you’re around like-minded people and you can have really good conversations and there’s really just no judgment there.

Michelle: [00:01:49] And it’s a really nice place to be around.

Gabe: [00:01:53] You sort of feel comfortable there because it’s set up for people like you and me.

Michelle: [00:01:59] It’s more like you’re not being judged. You feel no judgment in a support group. Everybody’s likeminded. Nobody’s thinking bad things about anything you say. You just have just a normal conversation and maybe you think somebody said something weird but then you’re like you know what I’m at this support group to what may maybe something I say somebody else thinks is weird but it’s okay cause we’re all talking to each other openly.

Gabe: [00:02:25] Let’s take this in sections so the section number one we’re going to talk about consumer operated services or peer run organizations drop in centers clubhouses like Fountain House where you go in New York City the Peer Center where I go in Columbus, Ohio and there’s there’s hundreds and hundreds of these models across the United States.

Gabe: [00:02:43] So let’s do that first. You go to probably one of the most famous drop in centers in the country. You’re really super lucky to live in New York City because fountain House has all kinds of services don’t you like a rooftop garden.

Michelle: [00:03:01] There might be a rooftop garden I don’t know if I’d been there but I am in the horticulture unit where they do all the planting and all that kind of stuff and sometimes I do help with the planting but a lot of times I just go there with my computer and I do my work there because I like to be surrounded by people that I can talk to as I’m doing my work. It’s just friendly. It’s nice it’s calming. I mean I could go to a Starbucks but that’s boring. Why not go to Fountain House chit chat with a bunch of fun people while I do my work.

Gabe: [00:03:32] You know the Peer Center where I go doesn’t have a garden. I mean we don’t we don’t have a garden and to call it a horticultural unit. That that that seriously really bad ass. But let’s talk about that for a moment because you know some people hearing this, they’re like wait a minute what does a garden have to do with mental health. And I’ll tell you this is probably my favorite thing to explain to people because at the Peer Center people come in and like oh you have mental illness and you have addiction issues and you’re playing cards. How does playing cards help? How does gardening help?

Gabe: [00:04:09] And here’s what I say. Are you ready for this?

Michelle: [00:04:11] I’m ready.

Gabe: [00:04:12] When you sit down with a group of likeminded people to play cards you talk and this whole game of spades or Uno or whatever game you choose to play that’s just kind of the distraction. Well you’re actually doing is talking about the things that are bothering you just like everybody else who plays cards you talk about your week. You talk about your grandkids you talk about your grandparents if you’re young you just you’re playing cards against humanity you feel bad. But in the best of ways. But these are very social activities. So, while you’re doing these social things you’re talking about the things that are that are eating you inside or you’re bragging about the things that you’re proud of to other likeminded people. Now nobody leaves a Fountain House or the Peer Center or any drop-in center and says Hey I said that I was 35 days sober and I was really proud of myself and everybody said they were proud of me too. No, they say I played cards but we know that you can play cards anywhere you went for that reassurance from. From people who are like you and understand. And that’s really the magic of these places.

Michelle: [00:05:18] It is the magic of these places. People find it interesting that I have friends that are so much older than me. I go to Fountain House. One of my best friends there she’s 56. Like people your friends a 56-year-old woman. No, she’s a really awesome person. She has great things to say. I love speaking to her. Why is it judgment. Is it stigma that she’s 56? What’s the big deal that she’s 56? We have likeminded mental capacity with mental illness and we just talk about regular things. Age doesn’t even make a difference there.

Gabe: [00:05:52] It is hard to find people. Probably because of the stigma that understand what we’re going through. You know I live with bipolar disorder and as you know people with bipolar disorder except for like my people we aren’t wearing shirts that say bipolar so people with schizophrenia people with depression we tend not to advertise it. So, it’s really easy to feel alone. But when you go to a drop-in center you go to a place like this you can sit around other people who also admit to living with mental illness and you can have real conversations about it. Listen Michelle and I we didn’t meet in a drop-in center but we could have you and I could have met in a drop-in center.

Michelle: [00:06:28] Oh definitely.

Gabe: [00:06:29] Yeah. We could’ve just been sitting there like Hey I take meds and it causes sexual side effects and my mouth is dry and you would’ve been like Oh my God.

Gabe: [00:06:36] Me too. And we could have just had this great conversation about how sometimes our medication pisses us off and when we left, we would’ve felt better because I would’ve been like oh my god I thought I was the only one. And you would have been like wow at least I’m not pitiful like that guy.

Gabe: [00:06:50] And the whole thing just drives forward that’s the magic of having a place where we belong and everybody has this. You want to play basketball you go to a gym. If you’re fat you join a gym.

Michelle: [00:07:03] Or you eat a bunch of Oreos.

Gabe: [00:07:05] I love Oreos.

Gabe: [00:07:07] All I’m saying is.

Michelle: [00:07:08] It’s a place of acceptance.

Gabe: [00:07:10] It is a place of acceptance and everybody has this in society. Everybody has this. There are all kinds of clubs and social events. There’s a whole website called meetup.

Gabe: [00:07:21] We’re likeminded people can.

Michelle: [00:07:22] Meetup. That’s how I found Mike post collegiate lacrosse team was meetup.com.

Gabe: [00:07:27] There you go. So, we like to be around people who understand us. We like to feel understood and that that’s not a mental illness thing. That’s not an addiction thing. That’s a human thing. And that’s why drop in centers consumer operated services peer run organizations the clubhouse model. That’s why all of these things are fantastic. But that sort of leads us into support groups because support groups are, they’re not the clubhouse model because you know clubhouse drop in centers et cetera.

Gabe: [00:07:54] They’re open like for periods of time you know they’re open for like you know morning to night etc. whereas a support group especially a Community Support Group is usually like an hour to an hour and a half maybe once or twice a week. So very different vibe.

Michelle: [00:08:10] I would agree with that. Yes.

Gabe: [00:08:12] And there’s two types of those groups. Well there’s probably more than two types but two types that we’re going to talk about here. There’s pure run support group which means a person with mental illness running a support group for other people with mental illness or in the case of like Alcoholics Anonymous recovered alcoholics running a support group for people who are trying to recover or in recovery from alcoholism. So that’s the peer run model.

Gabe: [00:08:35] And then there’s the more you know medical model it’s run by a social worker or psychologist or you know somebody with some sort of training and they both have their pluses and minuses. One is not better than the other. They both have their pluses minuses now Michelle you went to more than a few if I’m not mistaken.

Michelle: [00:08:53] A support group?

Gabe: [00:08:54] Yes support group that was led by a doctor or a social worker.

Michelle: [00:08:59] Well the first kind of support group I’ve really went to was when I was in a psych ward and it was just kind of run by a nurse and we would just go around talking and something that I got out of it that I didn’t even really follow was. Do you journal you should keep a journal and measure your mood in that way? And I was like Oh OK. Sure. The most reason why I even went to those little support groups that were having in the psych ward was because I was so bored. I just wanted to talk to people. But that actually was really helpful and it was nice talking to people. And of course, that wasn’t my last time in the psych ward because the next one I went to we didn’t do any of that. And I realized this is the worst hospital ever, because that other hospital was so much more helpful because they had a support group for us to all talk but this other hospital didn’t do anything for us. So, I realized that a support group in a hospital is actually very beneficial. It made me feel better. We were talking to everybody else that was in in the psych ward then and they were talking about things that got them there and things in the past learning about them. And it was very interesting to get everyone’s story.

Michelle: [00:10:13] And then when I was in the other hospital nobody really shared stories. And there was no support group. Everyone was just kind of talking to each other a little bit but nothing was really organized and it made me feel lonelier because I didn’t know why anyone else was in there.

Gabe: [00:10:33] I think it’s interesting that you were in this other hospital and you were like Oh my God I’m so bored I’m gonna go to this thing and please correct me if I’m wrong but you thought you’re gonna hate it. You thought it was stupid and dumb and you didn’t want to go. You were just so bored you were like oh I’m going to do this even this crap.

Michelle: [00:10:47] Yeah.

Gabe: [00:10:48] And then you missed it like you got so much out of it you wanted to do it again.

Michelle: [00:10:53] Yes.

Gabe: [00:10:54] I can see why you believed this.

Gabe: [00:10:56] I don’t I don’t judge you at all when somebody said hey I want you to sit in a room full of strangers and talk about your eating disorder or your bipolar disorder or your depression or suicidality I was like No. Why. Why do I want to know? No this is dumb. This is stupid. I felt the exact same way I got so much out of it. I first started like you with the you know the more I don’t wanna say traditional but the kind of everybody thinks about with the nurse or the doctor or the social worker sitting up front and the fun is organized in a specific way medically. You know they ask questions everybody shares that kind of thing. But then as that evolved it when I got back out in the community you know those were expensive and I didn’t have a lot of money. But what was free or very low costs like you know throw a couple dollars in a hat kind of thing we’re peer run support groups. And that was the same kind of idea.

Michelle: [00:11:50] Yeah.

Gabe: [00:11:50] People sharing stories etc. except the facilitator or moderator is another person living with mental illness. Again, the most famous peer run support group of all time is Alcoholics Anonymous. It’s exactly like that except for mental illness or depression or bipolar or you know just depending on how it’s structured. I loved these groups the one that I joined very first. Are you ready?

Michelle: [00:12:11] Yes.

Gabe: [00:12:12] Bipolar bears.

Michelle: [00:12:13] Bipolar bears. That sounds good because you are as big as a bear.

Gabe: [00:12:17] Oh man that’s so mean.

Michelle: [00:12:19] I want to see a fight between you and a bear and see who wins.

Gabe: [00:12:22] The bipolar bear.

Gabe: [00:12:24] I picked the support group though because I was scared and the name was so adorable.

Gabe: [00:12:30] No that’s kind of a messed up thing to say but I just I thought How can I be scared go into a group of bi polar bears. honestly that that’s just what I thought. Like how can I be scared?

Michelle: [00:12:41] Was there a stuffed animal bear that you had a hold every time you were speaking?

Gabe: [00:12:45] No but that would be a really good idea. I was very nervous to go and here some hints and tips for some people who are nervous to go. Go with a friend. Even if that friend doesn’t go into the room with you even if the friend has drops you off and waits in the hall. 1 – That’s a really good friend and 2 – you know sometimes that’s all it takes. You know somebody to like pick you up go to dinner first then go. I had somebody help me go to the group because I was scared she didn’t go in with me but she dropped me off and waited and I thought that was really super cool of her because I was scared to go but then you know I got to know people I made friends with the moderator facilitator you know just I became more comfortable just as we’re all you know as humans do.

Gabe: [00:13:30] And then I just became a person who went to this support group for a long time and then after a while I felt that I wasn’t getting anything out of it anymore like I had shared all of my stories I had heard a lot of stories and there’s a lot of power in that too. There’s a lot of power in hearing other people’s stories.

Michelle: [00:13:47] There really is there really is because you might think that you’ve done horrible things in your life and then you hear somebody else and you’re like oh we’re equal or you might hear somebody else Oh that’s way worse than what I did.

Gabe: [00:13:58] And it’s not about judgment. It’s about sort of sharing the burden.

Michelle: [00:14:02] It’s about understanding what your illness is and what could happen what could not happen and what you’ve done in your life and how you can accept it. Really.

Gabe: [00:14:13] Yeah. And when somebody tells you something that they did when they unload on you know they just. I didn’t mow the lawn and I was supposed to mow the lawn. And then you say to them you’re like look I didn’t mow the lawn either. There’s that connection. There’s that understanding. And that person feels better. And then you’re like Wait. Now I feel better because I helped you. And there’s just there’s a lot of power in that more so than people think and listen. Replace lawn with anything you want. Obviously when I walked into these groups for the first time, I thought I was the only person that never mowed the lawn. And then I learned that it was just so common. And then after I was there for a while new people walked in and they thought they were the only people that never mow the lawn. And I got to tell them that I mow the lawn. And I’m also thinking wow of all the analogies and examples to use. Why did I pick lawn mowing?

Michelle: [00:15:01] I don’t really know because I haven’t ever mowed on either.

Gabe: [00:15:05] Oh it’s OK though.

Gabe: [00:15:06] Neither have I.

Michelle: [00:15:07] The only as a peer support group if I ever went to. I went with my bipolar friend who took me to the bipolar support group at Columbia University where it’s just donation to get in.

Gabe: [00:15:17] Yeah.

Michelle: [00:15:18] And so I went there and I was talking I couldn’t relate fully to what everybody was saying but it was very interesting because this one guy was saying that his hyper sexuality was so big and he’s gay and he had you know unprotected sex and he got HIV.

Michelle: [00:15:36] So you know I’m schizophrenic and a bipolar group and people are talking about you know hyper sexuality and look what happened to this guy I’m a schizophrenic I go through all these troubles I do all these things but wow look what can happen. You know you would learn people’s stories and you know you kind of just understand that things could be so much worse even though you don’t think that your life is amazing.

Gabe: [00:16:02] We should probably touch for a moment because I don’t want people to get the idea that it’s like the suffering Olympics which we’ve talked about on this show before in a matter of somebody’s story being you know better worse. But at the same time, it is. I know exactly what you’re saying because sometimes I think Oh man, I thought that I hit rock bottom but I could have gone further and then other people they hear my story and they’re like oh wow this guy is way worse than me. It’s not about the judgment. It’s about the understanding the gravity of the situation and the breadth of the situation and just how just how bad it can get.

Michelle: [00:16:39] Yeah.

Gabe: [00:16:40] And then it’s also about finding those people and lifting them up and carrying them up and helping them and making it so that they’re rock bottom is way far below them because my rock bottom was way down there today. But you know when I sort of go into these support groups I was standing on rock bottom.

Michelle: [00:17:00] Hold up. We support from our sponsors. We’ll be right back.

Narrator: [00:17:04] This episode is sponsored by betterhelp.com secure convenient and affordable online counselling. All counselors are licensed accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face to face session. Go to betterhelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counselling is right for you. Betterhelp.com/PsychCentral.

Gabe: [00:17:35] We’re back talking about different types of support groups.

Michelle: [00:17:37] The support groups that you and you were so helpful for you that you became a facilitator. What was that like for you?

Gabe: [00:17:44] So one day I realized that I wasn’t getting anything out of the support groups anymore so I stopped going and that’s a great decision to make. Some people believe that you have to go to support groups for the rest of your life or you’re turning your back on people. That’s not true. You just keep going until you no longer get use out of it and then you step aside and let the next people sort of rise into their places. But I missed it and an organization that I was volunteering for put out a call for peer support facilitators for these groups you had to go through training.

Gabe: [00:18:15] I had to go through a three day training eight hours a day for three days. I had to learn a whole bunch of stuff I had to pass a test I had they had to make sure that I was good at it I guess. We learned things about like hot potatoes like what to do if somebody mess in certain words how to get people help how to have a resources how to structure the group how to you know the rules of engagement as it were how to de-escalate and on and on and on.

Gabe: [00:18:36] And I got through that. And then here here’s me and another person we get our own support group. Yeah. Like Gabe and Jane we’ll call her Jane because I want to protect her or her anonymity. Gabe and Jane now have the support group and people started coming and it’s different when you’re the facilitator. The biggest thing that you have to remember when you’re the facilitator is it’s not about you. It’s not about me at all. Like there’s no part of it that it’s about me. The only thing that I’m there to do is make sure that people are obeying the rules and keeping people safe and making sure that people have the resources that they need. That’s it. You know in a perfect world I wouldn’t speak at all.

Michelle: [00:19:22] Really?

Gabe: [00:19:23] Yeah I would come in. I would start the meeting. I would have everybody read the principles of support I would have everybody read the group guidelines. I would ask everybody by show of hands if they understood. I would ask who would like to go first. And then if everybody takes their turn one at a time and nobody gets upset or triggered and everybody shares information and has a nice reasonable conversation the next thing that I would need to say is all right well we have about five minutes left so we want to go ahead and wind down or they’re there anything that I can answer because we always like to end on time is very important we don’t want groups to go on and on and on and on and on. That would be perfect and you know believe it or not it worked that way a lot. Usually the most I had to do it would say something like. All right who wants to go next or. Hang on hang on hang on Jim. Michelle has been waiting to talk Michelle. You know stuff like that just like little things.

Michelle: [00:20:13] That’s funny because it has such an opposite experience that I had in the in that group that I went to maybe because I’m in New York City and people just can’t stop talking all the time. But it was just one after and another after another after another. A lot of people were talking about you know burning bridges self-sabotage all kinds of things like that with their partners that are cheating on their partners all the time is the hyper sexuality. Things like that. And at one point I had mentioned something about me being in the group but I’m schizophrenic and a girl goes, “Oh you don’t even know what people say to me. They said they say oh thank god you’re bipolar and not schizophrenic” and I’m like yeah I’m feeling this stigma in this group.

Gabe: [00:20:56] Well but wait though you even in your own description though you said that everybody talked one at a time.

Michelle: [00:21:02] Yeah but he was just flowing flowing flowing. It was never who wants to talk next everybody was chatting. Everybody just went on and on and on.

Gabe: [00:21:11] But it sounds like you had a really good facilitator because nobody talked over each other.

Gabe: [00:21:18] There were no side conversations and if there were did the facilitator shut it down.

Michelle: [00:21:22] It wasn’t the facilitator at the end was like this really went very well I also didn’t really have to moderate. You guys talk really great then.

Gabe: [00:21:34] And that’s what I mean by. If you if you do a good job, you’re just kind of like the cop sitting on the side of the road. You don’t have to do anything. People see you and they slow down if you’re a good facilitator you just kind of establish the rules and you enforce them. But you know you don’t have to enforce them unless people are breaking them. And for the most part groups went fine they went fine people learn from each other they share it. People talked and you know support groups are like a buffet take what you want and leave the rest just because something is put out there in a support group doesn’t mean that you have to take it accept it or agree with it. You are more than welcome to leave it right there. And I would encourage people to do this week after week after week and it went fine.

Michelle: [00:22:18] Were there ever any problems?

Gabe: [00:22:20] From time to time there would be a problem. I really want to stress that 90 percent of the time it was fantastic nothing more than you know just reminding people not to cross talk you know cause sometimes there’d be like a little cross talking where somebody is having a private conversation I remind them that you know they need to leave the room if they want to do that that kind of thing or you know I would notice that maybe a shyer person just wasn’t getting wasn’t jumping in.

Gabe: [00:22:43] So I’d quiet everybody down so that you know Michelle would have a chance to talk as she was maybe being a little shy.

Gabe: [00:22:49] You know stuff like that but. But every now and again of a fight would break out and be like No no. And that’s really poor wording on a podcast an argument a disagreement. Tensions would rise people would ramp up backs would be raised and I had de-escalation techniques that I use. I’d say all right stop everybody calms down please let’s all take a deep breath. Michelle, I understand that you’re upset that somebody said that lacrosse isn’t a real sport OK and Gabe. I understand that you think that lacrosse is not a real sport but that is that is not kind you. You should really apologize to Michelle for saying that and then the person usually apologizes and I would say and Michelle when somebody says something you disagree with yelling at them is not the best way.

Gabe: [00:23:42] So would you mind apologizing for yelling and then you would say I’m sorry I yelled at you and I say OK now let’s talk about what we were talking about before and I’d remember like what started the fight and get us back on that and almost I would say all but I honestly I think this worked 100 percent of the time I just really don’t like to say 100 percent of the time the two people they got in the argument would become like BFF’s. They almost always would because they would talk it out you know I would say look I didn’t mean it wasn’t a real sport I was just nervous and I don’t understand lacrosse and you would you would say Yeah look I you know I didn’t invent lacrosse. I don’t know why I got so mad and I’d be like but you’re a sports fan and you’d be like Yeah, I really like hockey. I like hockey and then the next thing you know we’re having a podcast.

Michelle: [00:24:25] How many people are you’re in these groups of you?

Gabe: [00:24:28] Anywhere from the smallest groups I ever had were probably six or seven the largest groups that I ever had were 15 to 16.

Michelle: [00:24:35] That’s huge.

Gabe: [00:24:36] Yeah. We weren’t allowed to have more than 15 people. Yeah, every now and again we would let the 16th person sneak in before we started turning people away but at 15 what was our maximum limit which is why I’m saying 15 or 16 because we really weren’t supposed to go over 15 because you’re right. That’s a huge group. And there were two of us. There were two facilitators and we would sit in a circle and we’d sit on either one and we’d make little notes at each other and we’d look at each other and we would just keep people on the right path.

Michelle: [00:25:04] I knew one person in the group that I went to. She was just there to listen. She just wanted to sit there and listen to people. She didn’t want to participate. Her method was just listening and I know that it was interesting there was a guy next to me. He said he was actually a preacher and he doesn’t really like to talk that much he likes to listen. But he was saying he’s a preacher and nobody that he works with knows that he’s bipolar because he’s a preacher and he asked to keep that that kind of like you know that he has strong you know successful man and he can’t tell anyone. You know in the church that he has bipolar because that would make him look bad. But he comes to these meetings and he listens. He doesn’t speak that much but it just helps him by being there.

Gabe: [00:25:50] By in the room. By being in the presence of other people. That’s enough for some people not me I’m a talker.

Michelle: [00:25:57] Yeah yeah.

Gabe: [00:25:58] I like to do a lot of talking a lot of sharing. I like to offer support but I also needed to remember when to listen and when to shut up and sometimes when I was a group member the facilitators would have to put their hand up and remind me to stop talking.

Gabe: [00:26:13] And that’s a good the thing for a facilitator to do.

Gabe: [00:26:17] And if the facilitator doesn’t write you’re not embarrassed you’re not a shame you’re understanding that they’re making space for everybody. I really like support groups and I encourage people to go to them if they are available in your community. Please go. Oftentimes they’re free. Maybe you got to throw a couple bucks in a hat. But even if you just sit there and listen you’ll learn so much and you’ll be in the presence of other people that have similar experiences.

Michelle: [00:26:43] It’s very it’s very helpful to note that you’re not alone.

Gabe: [00:26:47] Exactly. And some of those people listen. Some of those people will annoy you. There’s personality types that you will not get along.

Michelle: [00:26:54] Oh trust me yes.

Gabe: [00:26:55] And that’s okay too because it shows you that even people who are annoying have mental illness. That’s okay.

Gabe: [00:27:05] My mother annoys me. I still love her. Your mother annoys you Michelle.

Michelle: [00:27:11] Just the little.

Gabe: [00:27:12] Just a little.

Gabe: [00:27:14] And.

Michelle: [00:27:15] I still love her.

Gabe: [00:27:16] Yes.

Gabe: [00:27:17] So the people in a support group you will find that common ground and you don’t have to be best friends. In fact, I discourage going to a support group to make friends should go to a support group to get support. It doesn’t mean that a friendship won’t come out of it but that should not be your goal your goal should be to attentively listen. And your goal should be to truthfully share and if you do that, I think that you’ll get a lot out of it. So, if you are afraid to go find a buddy and go even if the body just sits outside or just go on your own. Talk to the facilitator let him know you’re scared show up early so that you’re there before the big group gets there and tell the facilitator that you’re nervous.

Michelle: [00:27:51] You can always change your name too.

Gabe: [00:27:53] There is most all the groups that I did. Everybody went by their first name and you’re right. We didn’t I didn’t I didn’t card anybody. So maybe everybody’s name was wrong.

Gabe: [00:28:02] I don’t know.

Michelle: [00:28:03] I mean you can change your name you cannot say what your job is.

Gabe: [00:28:07] Yes.

Michelle: [00:28:08] Just share only what you want to share. There’s one issue you want to talk about. You can only talk if you would make us only talk about that issue. That’s what you want to speak about you’re forced to say anything you don’t want to say.

Gabe: [00:28:19] Exactly. You can share as much as you want or as little as you want. All that’s required is honesty. It’s not full disclosure. And I think that people miss that sometimes they think that it’s some sort of an interrogation. It’s not. It’s participation at your speed at your rate. And if the support group isn’t working out for you don’t go back. There’s nothing wrong with that. If I am very lucky as are you Michelle because we live in big cities there’s dozens of support groups. So when I didn’t like one I just joined another one. If that’s the case for you know support group shop. If you only have the one you might have to work a little harder to make it work. But I really encourage support groups and finally the last thing that we want to say is PsychCentral.com has a ton on of online support groups. I like the in person one’s certainly better. The advantage of the online ones is they’re open 24 hours a day. They’re available when you need them. It’s kind of like a drop in center for online. So visit sites PsychCentral.com. Join the support groups and just have a blast. Those groups are really awesome and they don’t pelt you with advertising or ask you for a bunch of stuff either. So we really love Psych Central here at A Bipolar, A Schizophrenic And A Podcast.

Gabe: [00:29:31] Michelle Are we out?

Michelle: [00:29:33] I think we’re out.

Gabe: [00:29:34] Thank you everybody for tuning in. Remember you can head over to store.PsychCentral.com and pick up a Define Normal shirt when they’re gone their gone unless of course we order more or you can run over to PsychCentral.com. Join a support group read great articles everything over there is free and they are a very generous supporter.

Gabe: [00:29:51] Of this podcast. We’ll see everybody next week.

Narrator: [00:29:56] You’ve been listening to a bipolar a schizophrenic kind of podcast. If you love this episode don’t keep it to yourself head over to iTunes or your preferred podcast app to subscribe rate and review to work with Gabe go to GabeHoward.com. To work with Michelle go to Schizophrenic.NYC. For free mental health resources and online support groups. Head over to PsychCentral.com Show’s official Web site PsychCentrald.com/bsp you can e-mail us at [email protected]. Thank you for listening and share widely.

  Meet Your Bipolar and Schizophrenic Hosts

GABE HOWARD was formally diagnosed with bipolar and anxiety disorders after being committed to a psychiatric hospital in 2003. Now in recovery, Gabe is a prominent mental health activist and host of the award-winning Psych Central Show podcast. He is also an award-winning writer and speaker, traveling nationally to share the humorous, yet educational, story of his bipolar life. To work with Gabe, visit gabehoward.com.

  MICHELLE HAMMER was officially diagnosed with schizophrenia at age 22, but incorrectly diagnosed with bipolar disorder at 18. Michelle is an award-winning mental health advocate who has been featured in press all over the world. In May 2015, Michelle founded the company Schizophrenic.NYC, a mental health clothing line, with the mission of reducing stigma by starting conversations about mental health. She is a firm believer that confidence can get you anywhere. To work with Michelle, visit Schizophrenic.NYC.

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