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tenebrius-excellium · 5 months

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I'm reading the Httyd3 film commentary and oh my gosh, so much love went into that movie, even though not every thought came out quite perfect in the final thing. The planning behind it was so in-depth and nuanced though. I now remember how Hiccup always set Toothless free and I believe one thing that may have been missing from the third movie was Hiccup getting to openly admit that he (thinks he) needs Toothless, too. It's implied and shown but never voiced. He's alone with that fear and that's why he never quite overcomes it. Astrid calls him out on feeling inferior and challenges him to be the strong person he was before meeting Toothy. But that's not the kind of strength in question. The reason WHY Hiccup was feeling inferior - the fear of losing his best buddy who made him better - was valid to be expressed and addressed as well. It needs to be ok to feel upset over something like this loss before moving on to letting it go.

Back in big Httyd feels wow.

#gotta rewatch sometime soon #httyd3 #httyd3 analysis #analysis #hiccup #chief!hiccup #the art of how to train your dragon 3 #wherethekiteflies

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kingofthewilderwest · 1 year

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do you think Tuffnut would make a bond with the light fury

I know the point of THW was to show a dragon remaining in her wild state. But. In my infinite amount of bias because Tuffnut is fantastic and can pull out surprises when people least expect, I'm going to say 'yes.' He can just be wild with her ;) ;) ;) Also can we please get a THW AU where this happens? Because heck yeah!

#THW #The Hidden World #httyd 3 #How to Train Your Dragon 3 #httyd3 #blabbing Haddock #ask #ask me #awesome anonymous friend #anonymous #httyd #How to Train Your Dragon #Tuffnut #Light Fury #analysis #my analysis

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thethiefandtheairbender · 1 year

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I was thinking about HTTYD: The Hidden World, and some of the themes people seem to miss from the ending-- the whole concept of a short-lived golden era of wonder the world isn't ready for, but hopefully will be someday.

And it kind of reminded me of Arthurian lore and, more generally, the classic King in the Mountain archetype.

As someone who enjoys exploring literary motifs, I thought you might have some ideas about this?

If anything I think people fail to notice how little the movies actually talk about coexistence through Hiccup as opposed to Hiccup's goal every movie being about bringing an end to violence, when you get down to it. In the first movie even once bonding with Toothless, Hiccup never thinks that humans and dragons can live together. He goes into the Kill Ring to try and show that there's another way once he realizes dragons are controlled and equally victims, stating, "Put an end to this; I have to try" and "We don't have to kill them." Cohabitation on a widespread level was something that the Berkians decided on independently of him when he was asleep / recovering. That doesn't mean Hiccup doesn't want humans and dragons to live together - he absolutely does - but the first movie is far more centred on

Likewise, the second movie also isn't about co-habitation, although it's starting to get there. For example, Hiccup doesn't say to Drago that dragons deserve even to be treated kindly / to love in community with humans. What they disagree on is the role dragons play in the lives of humans: "Dragons, they are kind, amazing creatures, that can bring people together" "Or tear them apart." Likewise, Valka never believed that no humans could live in harmony with dragons, only that it was a limited few ("some of us are just born different") and that you had to submit to draconic ways rather than finding a middle ground, like Berk. It's also worth noting how little Berk does to protect the dragons / the humans do in general in the climax. Whereas in the first movie the kids were equally in the battle, the side characters are side lined until Hiccup frees Toothless, and Toothless gets the rest of the dragons on board. Rebuilding is a joint effort, but ending the violence successfully is not

Finally, HTTYD3 makes co-habitation an actual hardcore theme, and has a villain who is logistically and ideologically opposed to Hiccup's life's work: "You would have them live among us, as equals?" That's why the ending is so important, because it's Hiccup realizing that dragons aren't equals - they're better than humans, and just like he doesn't try to change Grimmel's mind because of Drago, it processes that humans will bring misery to dragons through involvement and constant chaos. It's Hiccup realizing he's entrapped in his own cycle.

Which is to say: the movies are obsessed with Endings and bringing about the ends of cycles of violence and upheaval. Letting the dragons be free in safety from human terror is perfectly in line with this theme. It's why the first and last noteworthy thing Hiccup does is the exact same:

He lets a dragon go.

He sets a dragon free.

#httyd #httyd meta #analysis series #analysis #requests #how to train your dragon #httyd3 #defined how i think of soulmates tbh and none of the movies are an exception #hiccup #toothless #brotp: my best friend #parallels

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10blue10 · 3 years

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The Timeline of THW

The reason that the pacing in THW feels so off is because it doesn’t take into account how long it would realistically take characters to get from A to B. So let’s go through it chunk by chunk and see if we can figure the timeline out.

The opening scene is the First Night, on the trapper ship, and then by the time they get back to Berk, it’s the next morning/lunchtime. So far so good. Then judging by the lighting in that scene, Grimmel arrives at the warlords base at sunset, so it must be taking place at the same time as the flashback/cliff scene back on Berk. Which we know is the same day, because they reference Gobber’s suggestion to get married. So these two scenes are in parallel.

Except that the Light Fury is seen in a cage at the trappers base at sunset, and yet a few scenes later, by the Second Night, she’s already on Berk. And it’s not like Toothless went to go look for her in the middle of the night - the sun has only just set. It’s only been a single day! Grimmel can apparently teleport now.

Then we get all the stuff with finding the trap and learning about Grimmel, and the Third Night where they fail to trap him, he sets Hiccup’s house on fire, and Hiccup tells everyone they have to leave. Incidentally, this is the first time he forgoes a good nights sleep, but it won’t be the last! The next day they’re off finding New Berk, and Grimmel pulls ‘facts’ out of his ass about Night Furies.

We get the Fourth Night where Toothless encounters the Light Fury again, and then it’s the next morning...but Hiccup has already pretty much made an auto tail for Toothless, implying he was working during the night. How did they set up a forge that fast? Who knows! Oh, and there’s Hiccup not sleeping again!

Now here’s where things get complicated. A lot happens simultaneously during the Fifth Night. Toothless and the Light Fury are on their ‘date’, we have Hiccup and crew going off to capture Grimmel and failing, then they get back to New Berk, realise Ruffnut is missing, and Hiccup and Astrid go to find Toothless. It’s the...let’s see, third night Hiccup doesn’t get enough sleep! He’s on a roll!

They find the Hidden World, Toothless comes back with them, Grimmel captures him and the LF, and by the time the final battle starts it’s sunset. The dragons leave just before the Sixth Night...and then we skip ahead to winter if the same year, presumably, and they’ve already built a village and carved a massive statue of Stoick. Say what you will but the Berkians can work fast.

Five days. From beginning to...well, the departure scene, the bulk of the movie takes place over just five days. Or five nights. Hiccup doesn’t sleep for at least 48 hours straight at one point, so I’m not convinced he didn’t make that terrible decision to send the dragons away because he was sleep deprived.

Except we don’t know if it has been five days. We can only assume based on the times of day shown in the movie, because there’s nothing to suggest more time has passed in between. In fact, it’s impossible for there to have been time in between, just based on how the scenes are edited and what characters say.

#thw criticism #httyd3 analysis #pacing #movie timeline #blusings

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queenofthearchipelago · 5 years

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When Toothless didn't recognize Hiccup in the epilogue I was thrown for a bit but then Toothless remembered him and then I remembered

"I looked at him, and I saw myself"

There is no world in which Toothless would not recognize Hiccup because there is no world in which that dragon would not have recognized himself.

A soul that reflects his own.

#dragons #hictooth #hiccup #toothless #httyd3 #httyd #httyd analysis #httyd3 analysis #httyd3 spoilers #dragons analysis #thoughtsfromthequeen #i looked at him and i saw myself

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nightfury-2001 · 5 years

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So, I decided to look at the background Light Furies in the Hidden World and point out how they differ from the main Light Fury and theorize what that might mean for the canon Light Fury species.

First up, the one that flies up and then falls back when Toothless and the main LF are about to swoop down.

Right off the bat we can notice some differences here...most notably the pointier tail fins. The wings also look to less smooth, and this Light Fury also seems to have longer ear plates. While some have said that these differences are down to motion blur and/or the angle, I really don't think they are, especially the pointier tail fins.

A lot of people seem to theorize that this is a male Light Fury, and that Light Furies (and possibly Night Furies) display sexual dimorphism...which would suck, because I mean, having females have heart shaped tails, weirdly smooth wings, and smaller sensory organs (because yeah, ear plates actually have uses, they aren't just there for display). Please no. Even though I hated the idea I still agreed at first that this was probably intended to be a male Light Fury considering some of the reasoning behind the main Light Fury's design, and I was pretty annoyed...but then...I remembered...

BUFF LIGHT FURY

Yeah, remember that other Light Fury that everyone thought was a male that was in the second trailer? I finally decided to go look at more screencaps of it now that the actual movie is out, and those extra few seconds that weren't in the trailer really help show just how much larger its ear plates are compared to the main Light Fury's and how its head/face isn't as rounded and does't seem to be as smooshed in... Anyway, if you go by the "male Light Furies have pointier tail fins and wings" then it's a female!

Look at this buff queen!!! I remember when the first trailer came out and I was like "yeah idc what anyone says that's a mother with her adolescent offspring", and y'all it makes me so happy to feel like that might have been the intention...but, if I'm being completely honest with myself it's probably more likely that it's supposed to be a male Light Fury even if it is beside a younger Light Fury. Especially considering that in things released around the time of the first movie, there are bulkier dragons with different features that certainly seem like they're intended to be males, such as this Nadder from GotNF:

HOWEVER, with all that in mind, I'd like to present another theory I feel might be at least somewhat true, and makes me much happier than the alternatives: That there's some variation within Light Furies and other species such as Deadly Nadders, and that traits like longer ear plates, pointier tail fins, less smooth wings, etc. for Light Furies, or having an underbite, longer spines, etc. for Nadders are not due to sexual dimorphism. This helps explain why a lot of the male Nadders and Gronckles we've seen look the exact same as the females, why Fishlegs originally thought Meatlug was a male (even though I imagine Berk didn't know that much about dragons when GotNF happened, I still think a few months had to have passed at the very least, and have you seen one of those buffer/bigger Gronckles? lol), and the differences between the Light Furies.

anyway who's gonna make an OC that’s a buff female light fury with pointier wings and tail fins i know i am

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inhonoredglory · 5 years

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I honestly can’t really get on board w the ending of httyd 3 for the very fact that it felt like what ppl say happens when you get married, that you leave everyone even your best friend and go to your own little bubble w your partner and kids (maybe occasionally seeing them if your lucky) and being that I haven’t been w anyone ever &that I don’t see my future like that it kinda made me sad that the ending kinda just further reinforced the idea that that’s what’s natural idk

OK. This. This is what has been bothering me pretty hardcore since the film ended and I got over the shine of its shocking newness. I don’t want to really promote negativity in the fandom, but it should be addressed and you bring up what I fear the most in most mainstream narratives, and what I thought we were safe from in the HTTYD franchise.

Because HTTYD as a whole is so strongly and so poignantly about the friendship and fierce love of Hiccup and Toothless: theirs is a Love Story, through and through, and let’s be real: HTTYD3 confirmed that by having Hiccup tell Toothless, “I love you” (if anyone out there was confused before) and by paralleling Stoick’s “love is loss” flashback quote with (not Hiccup and Astrid), but Hiccup and Toothless.

So the narrative definitely elevates the friendship of Hiccup and Toothless. I appreciate that. I appreciate that the film knows this is about “the friendship of a lifetime.” Hiccup is selfless to the point of death for Toothless’ happiness. (Toothless has some development issues and a less-than-stellar portrayal of his own separation anxiety, but that’s another issue written about here in this analysis by @e–wills and @kingofthewilderwest)

The theme of the film is that dragons and humans can’t live with each other because humans are too evil. Toothless must protect his dragonkind. Toothless must lead them to safety. I’m not going to go into the details of how those themes were developed in the film (or if they needed more emphasis). That might be another post once I see the film again.

What I am bothered by is how easily the narrative feeds into what you feared: that friendships must inevitably give way to romantic partnerships. Hiccup says he was paying attention to what he wanted, rather than what Toothless needed. He asks Toothless, “am I enough?” And the narrative is telling us, no. We have so many supporting character relationships turned into romances or hints of romances that weren’t that way before––from Snotlout hitting on Valka, that bit of Valka and Eret, Tuffnut and Hiccup, Gobber and Eret. (Again, I’m not saying romance is bad, but romance––of any stripe––was never the hallmark of HTTYD.) And of course… we get Ruffnut trying to decide which man she wants to fall in love with.. because apparently, even her and Tuffnut can’t be complete with just each other (I’m not the biggest RTTE fan, but I honestly adored that ep where Ruff committed herself to Tuff instead of running off with Throk.)

A hugely disproportionate amount of the jokes in the film were ultimately sexual in nature. And when Toothless is swept off his wings by the Light Fury (literally when he fell into the Hidden World w/ her), the cinematic structure of that scene was that traditional fade to black (read: they had sex) we see in romantic movies since the beginning of movies. Toothless is slobbery and horny. Hiccup and Astrid are on fire (literally, and I could probably get very Freudian about that scene too). The overtness of the sexual undertone in this film felt more powerful to me than the direness of the threat (again, with limited runtime they chose to emphasize developing Toothless and LF’s arc than the villains’).

It bothers me because even though we get the world-scope facts about Toothless having to return to his kind and protect his dragons, we get the emotional and narrative scaffolding of a very, VERY tired and traditional trope. Casual fans are gonna see this movie and knee-jerk right back into the idea that friendships are the things you have as a kid and teen growing up. Those have to ultimately give way to “the real world” where you settle with a romantic partner and have a family.

Are families bad? No. Is romance bad? No. But Hiccup and Toothless represented so much more than that; they represented True Love, which is dedicated, committed, and lifelong. I adored GotNF because it placed the hallmarks and symbology of marriage (willing bondage to another person) in the context of Hiccup and Toothless, the most non-sexual of relationships (bless the fact that Toothless is a dragon because it made friendship the only canon interpretation of their bond). HTTYD3 tries to explain GotNF by saying Toothless had no one to go to when he flew off. But now he does.

I still want to see the film again to really get my thoughts together on this, but at the moment I’m grumbling. I soapbox friendships-as-legit-love a lot and so I was triggered somewhat by the shift. Like you, I’ve never been in a romantic relationship either and I really wonder if the biological drive to get hooked is that powerful in people. Maybe it is…

I lowkey want to write a THW Remix fic putting back in all the themes we know and love into the movie, but with the plot intact, cuz the plot of this film was heartbreakingly beautiful and completely relevant to the biggest Hiccup and Toothless question in their growth: when does a love before selfish?

Anyway, I rambled long enough. Please let’s dialogue about this, fandom. I want to work my feelings out on it and hopefully be proved wrong.

I do recommend reading this post by a friend of mine who believes the friendship was not overpowered by the romance.

#httyd3 #how to train your dragon 3 #httyd thw #httyd3 spoilers #httyd analysis #httyd3 analysis #*mythoughts #*myanalysis #what are my tags ugh #anonymous #ask #analysis #my analysis #*mymeta

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wolfchic · 3 years

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a HTTYD headcanon

Night Furies, Sand Wraiths, Woolly Howls--they evolved from a common ancestor and adapted as animals do to suit their environment. Night Furies evolved to hunt at night, Woolly Howls evolved to survive extreme colds, Sand Wraiths extreme heat (they hide under the sand to escape the sun, change my mind).

Like lions, tigers, and leopards all belong in the Panthera genus, but they’re still completely different species. AND they can even interbreed. Now, cases of hybrids mean the offspring would be infertile. HOWEVER, a female tigon (male tiger, female lion) CAN produce offspring. (At a zoo in India, a tigoness, born in 1971, was successfully mated to a male Asiatic lion. The rare, second generation hybrid was called a litigon. The tigoness went on to produce seven more litigons in her lifetime.)

So, theoretically, Toothless and the Light Fury could potentially produce viable offspring. It’s unlikely, though, that the Night Light’s offspring would, themselves, be viable. So, either way, the Night Furies die out with Toothless. At least, canonically.

I, however, am in love with the Light Fury “Brood Parasite Edition” by @muse-42 so I’m going to ignore the third movie completely and say Toothless and another Night Fury (I could go into a long discussion one why I think it’s bullshit that an entire species of the fastest, most powerful dragon species in the world was wiped out by One (1) Monologuing Fuck) got together and they still visit Hiccup and--

Anyway. Thoughts?

#how to train your dragon #httyd #httyd3 #thw #night fury #light fury #headcanon #httyd headcanon #I add as many tags as I can so people will see this because I want to DEBATE #muse-42 #light fury redesign #this started off as a species analysis type thing #and evolved into my grievances with the third movie #of which there are many

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raflovestuffs · 5 years

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Could you please do a description/personality traits on zephyr and nuffink

Aha really funny that you asked it because I was already planning one… Here you go!

I was excited for this sort mainly because we’ll know more about Zephyr and Nuffink. Because you know even if we see them at the end of HTTYD3, we could not really tell which personalities they got. It’s hard to define people in less than 5 minutes on the screen. So Homecoming really satisfied me in these terms.

Let’s start with Zephyr. As we already knew, she definitely has her father’s side regarding the inventions she develops. She obviously loves to create things! The notebook she wears in the epilogue goes in this direction but also tell us about an interest in books and stories etc. And we got it confirmed when we saw her sharing with her parents the researches she did on dragons and what she found.

That’s when I saw in her a lot of her mom’s side. Like Astrid, she doesn’t let herself be easily convinced. She read things, she read dragons are monsters so they are monsters, it’s written in black and white you know. So her parents have to prove the contrary. But she’s really stubborn, like her father. So even if the show is great, unlike her brother Nuffink, she still not believes dragons are good. She only changed her mind when she finally experienced the thing by herself and meet a real dragon, namely Toothless.

Also, we can find a lot of signs that shows that she acts just like her mom. First, yeah she love to create things but not just any kind. She creates weapons to defend her family from the dragons! She definitely got that from her mom. She’s protective like her. And a future warrior if we add to this the way she’s sharpening her knifes everywhere like her mom used to.

Originally posted by odair-hofferson

Also, can we talk about how protective she’s towards her little brother? This little girl is so brave!

Originally posted by saieras

This is so damn cute and it reminds me a lot of her parents’ side who were always protecting each other in RTTE. Well done, Hiccup and Astrid! Concerning the headcanons I could make after that, well, I think Zephyr thinks a lot, like a lot (like her father do) and it will maybe cause her some troubles when she’ll be older. Maybe she’ll overthink her relationships with others and will not know how to act with people of her age during her adolescence. But as a positive side, during the village’s council she’ll be able to help her father when he has big decisions to make. She’ll came up with new ideas and help him see clearer in his mind. And her daddy will tell her that’s what will make her a great chief. Also, I can clearly see her writing Hiccup’s memoirs because she’s been fascinated with his story and the story of her tribe. And since her father would maybe not want to write it, to keep the dragons a secret, she’ll do it to honor Berk’s story but maybe will keep that to herself and it would be her grandkids finding it and later, publishing it when the world doesn’t believe in dragons anymore.

But maybe I’m going too far aha… Anyway, she really is a beautiful mixed of her two parents

Nuffink now. This boy is such a sweat heart. He freaking loves his big sister and would do anything for her. I mean, look of how proud he is to follow her everywhere!

He really admires her. And that’s why I see more Hiccup’s side in him. He really got excited for everything he does and that’s so Hiccup’s like! But we can tell he’s his mama’s boy too. He loves to strike his head on everything and he’s ready to fight whenever it’s necessary.

Originally posted by odair-hofferson

Also, he liked to help her sister performing her new defense systems but I think he more likes to be into the action than building the thing. Nuffink seems like he can be easily influenced because he follows her sister everywhere but at the same time, you can see during the show that he’s not showing his excitement just because of Zephyr and because he wants to please her. And at the end of the show, he can’t contain it and just applauses with all his strength.

Originally posted by saieras

I headcanon that when he’ll be a teen, he would have an interest in navigation. Because he does not want to stay in New Berk, he wants to see the world (like his father) and so he became a great sailor and visits a lot of places! He would also bring his sister with him even she’s reluctant to the thing at first but once again, his excitement would finish convincing her. I can also definitely see him saving her sister many times when they’ll go on adventures together. And I think she’ll be grateful and not like Astrid saying that she doesn’t need the help of anyone. I think Zephyr would be wise enough to admit she needs her little brother in some situations.

Well, it was a bit longer than I expected to be but I hope you’ll like this analysis!

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bi-bi-want-dragon · 4 years

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So... I think I found New Berk?

(long post warning. so so long. and lots of pictures so sorry mobile users...) I don’t know if anyone else had pinpointed a possible place that New Berk exists in relation to Hiccup’s map, but I might have somewhat of an answer.

I was doing a bit of extremely major minor world building trying to figure out where the Hidden World and other places are in relation to Old Berk. @redkiteslike actually pointed me to a couple posts she made or added to here that pinpointed a possible area for the Hidden World’s location. And that was incredibly helpful (thanks again, Reddie!)

But then I did more digging and dug back out that interactive map, you know the one dreamworks had on their website and then took down, the Race to the Edge one, the one I’m sure we all have at least seen a reference to before?

Yeah that one :) (ignore the funky looking places, it’s pieces I edited together) ANYWAY

My little nerd butt was trying to calculate some travel timing both by boat and dragon between Old Berk and the Wingmaidens or Old Berk and Berserker Island or Outcast Island to blah blah blah you get the picture.

And then I got to New Berk. And I couldn’t find any point of reference for that. So in trying to figure out how long it would take to get from, say, Old Berk to New Berk, went back to the third movie and took some clues from there. From context clues the Hooligans were able to get to the location that would become New Berk in less than a day. They went west and it wasn’t a previously discovered island, so it would have to be west of the edge of Hiccups current map (above). Dragon’s Edge was also about a day’s flight from Old Berk. So I just drew an imaginary line directly west of Old Berk about the same distance away as Dragon’s Edge but in the opposite direction, and said “Yeah, that good enough!”

And then it wasn’t.

So back to the third movie I go for the umpteenth time to see if I somehow missed something after combing through it over and over and over and...

I skipped straight to the part where they’re en route for New-Berk-to-be, but this time I paid more attention to the things Grimmel was saying. Which I hadn’t done before, because although he got lucky, he incorrectly guessed the reasoning behind Hiccup’s decisions about which direction exactly to go.

And then I saw his map.

Now I never paid a whole lot of attention to it before because it was a lot scarcer than Hiccup’s map so I didn’t really think it accurate. And then I noticed this little guy. (Apologies in advance for the awful photo quality, I’m a writer not a digital artist.)

Kinda looks like the shape of Dark Deep on Hiccup’s map. And then this guy...

Not too bad for Berk. And these look a lot like the Rookery and Scauldron Island.

So then this little line of islands here...

Must be Dragon, Thor Rock, Crescent, and Sunstone Islands.

Grimmel’s are slanted differently just because of the angle of the shot. And they’re not exact, but that would make sense because I think it’s safe to assume that Grimmel made this map himself, just like Hiccup made his. So they wouldn’t be exact, they would potentially be skewed by perspective and be dependent on the skill of the creator.

So Grimmel basically says that the Berkians would have to follow the line of Dragon, Thor Rock, Sunstone, and Crescent islands on their path away from Berk. We can assume he’s right because, well, he found them not long after they left. And we know New Berk is northwest of Old Berk as well. So looking at that northwestern corner of Hiccup’s RTTE map...

We’ve got a pretty good view of where they may have been flying.

Now.

I wanna talk about this guy.

It’s not named, and I don’t recall it existing anywhere in RTTE or HTTYD2; after all, if it was, we’d have a name for it. It’s directly in line with the islands the Berkians followed. And the shape especially peaked my interest.

We don’t have a clear shot of the entirety of New Berk, but the two views we do get of the side of the island show that it doesn’t seem to have many irregular outcroppings, and almost a corner on the side they approach from (i.e. the southeastern side of the island).

Which is consistent with the shape of the island on Hiccup’s map.

Now, I will say that going off of distance, I wouldn’t have placed New Berk quite that far out from Old Berk. But we all know there’s enough inconsistencies between RTTE and THW (or the movies in general) that I’m not too concerned about it. And the fact that it does already exist on Hiccup’s map makes me a little hesitant. However, Hiccup never said whether or not it was a known island. Just that “this place is very nice, but it’s not the Hidden World,” and that “it’s defensible, hidden.” Which, to be fair, there’s not exactly much else adjacent to that island both in the movie or on Hiccup’s map.

This also fits fairly well with what Reddie said about the location of the Hidden World. Hiccup says its “nine days east of the Edge of the World” which would be the Hidden World, and I would assume nine days would be by ship. So the Hidden World would either be directly west of New Berk... Or directly west of Old Berk. Aka southwest of New Berk. Which there is plenty of space there for the Hidden World to possibly be. That could even place the Hidden World fairly close to the Rookery by dragon-flight standards.

So... Welcome to New Berk?

#I'm going to feel like such an idiot if someone already noticed this #or if it's already common knowledge #but here you go anyway #sorry for the long post #new berk #httyd3 #the hidden world #httyd analysis #movie analysis #this is what happens when you stay up until 4 am world building #i might have lost my mind its okay #old berk #grimmel's map #hiccup's map #randis fics

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tenebrius-excellium · 1 year

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I love your post about backend motivation vs frontend motivation in the HTTYD series!!! I’ve always had a bit of a problem with the sequels (especially the third movie) that I could never put into words, but the difference in motivation is EXACTLY it. The Hidden World in particular had a specific ending in mind, wich isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but their solution was to force the ending into existence instead of letting the story naturally build up to the ending. And you can feel the story straining soooooo much when Toothless acts like a dog for twenty minutes or Grimmel does something simple/obvious that the narrative treats as an ingenious act of strategy. It’s just not genuine! The characters simply wouldn’t act like that, but the writers let plot dictate characters instead of the other way around, and it’s just. so disappointing. There has to have been a way to keep the natural tensions and eventual triumphs of dragon/human bonds without resorting to flattening everyone’s character and taking the story in a weird, half-baked direction.

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Oh my gosh B. You’re still there??????? THANK YOU for being faithful to my blog even tho I’ve not really posted anything proper in ages!!! I’m so happy to hear from you!!!

I’m glad you liked my post XD Ok so. I remembered that what I tried to express is called “Watsonian vs. Doylish” interpretation in fandom (based on this post), or easier, it’s about giving in-universe explanations vs. ex-universe explanations for something that happens in the plot. The actual literary terms according to Gérard Genette for that would be “intra-diegetic” vs. “extra-diegetic”.

The specific difference the terms “back-end vs. front-end motivation” makes, seems to be the phenomenon that building a story from the start allows it to better make sense inside the universe, whereas building a story from its ending reveals the circumstances that the author found themselves in when creating it.

Anyway so what I always found strange is that Httyd2 had all those same problems you named, yet no one talks about that and only bashes on the third movie! Wanna enlighten me on why the second movie worked for you???

Ok so this is spontaneously going to turn into the “Ooc Hiccup post” that I promised at the beginning of the year. I hope you’re ok with that.

WHY IS HICCUP OOC IN HTTYD2?

because his new conflict (”becoming Chief”) was pulled out of thin air and wasn’t already an established extension of Berk’s situation. (a part I always loved about Httyd1 was that Hiccup wasn’t made out to be a Disney Princess who would have to face the duty of leading eventually. I expected the question of succession to be handled far more casually - that someone who wanted to be worthy could be Chief on Berk, not because Hiccup was expected to continue Stoick’s legacy. In fact I wish Stoick would have let him go rampant with the smithy and all his crazy inventions, making him Gobber’s successor first - since Gobber is also canonically older than Stoick - and lining Astrid up to be the next actual Chief. There could have been a sudden plot twist where Astrid realizes she doesn’t want to do it alone and that she needs Hiccup in this with her. It would have made them the ruling couple in a different way.)

because the movie made him immature on purpose so it could justify slapping the “necessary” growth arc on him. (Look, Hiccup has always been reckless and a little bit too trusting when presented with danger, but he was never ignorant of a certain reality or too stupid to see error in his ways. Httyd2 depicts him as a naive dragon geek who can’t see past the destructive potential this has on the humans around him. Eret has had a shit life and a dark past. Drago has his reasons for what he does. Yet Hiccup is far too quick to ignore the trauma that the tribes of the Archipelago suffered because of the dragon plague, and simply forgives his mother despite the fact that she chose to save dragons over raising her own son. It’s all in the name of dragon welfare now and that is just not Hiccup. Og Hiccup took time to engage with Astrid’s valid scepticism. Og Hiccup killed the Red Death to save his tribe. He did not attempt to train that one, if you get what I’m saying. The dragons were never pets.)

because Stoick died only so he wouldn’t get in the way of Hiccup’s leadership. (After all that happens, Hiccup - to me - hasn’t suddenly evolved into a wiser or more experienced person. He just righteously got his ass kicked for the stupidity that was forced onto his character. He then becomes Chief not because he has learned much from the situation, but because Stoick is now dead. It’s true that Hiccup says “Sorry, Dad” to the funeral pyre, but it is never specified what he’s sorry for. To me, he does understand that he got his father killed, but he doesn’t get a grasp on why. He hasn’t the faintest notion of what Stoick did for him, to what extent his father came after him. There was desperation in Stoick to save his son. And Hiccup never feels this guilt much. It is then very convenient that he can freely lead the people of Berk and appear as a competent Chief simply because there is no more Stoick to disagree with him. I loved the version in the books where Hiccup becomes king and Stoick as well as Valhallarama are both alive and well to see it!!!! And Stoick, Chief of the Hairy Hooligans, has to take a step back and let his son shine.)

Right. So that’s that. The second point is by far my greatest criticism regarding Httyd2. Hiccup, in my opinion, was always balanced between the needs of dragons and humans. He is not a “dragon geek”. It simply so happened that a dragon became his best friend because no one else wanted to be his friend at first. Movie!Hiccup is an “invention geek”!!! The time he spends building stuff in the smithy is so important to his character! He doesn’t fix stuff by talking. He fixes stuff by building tools first and explaining them to everyone else second. That’s how I’ve always understood him. Httyd3 Hiccup partly returned to that focus with his fireproof armor, the fully developed flightsuits and the docking contraption for ships that he made on New Berk. The Hiccup I know acts more, gains emotional insight by observation, and talks less.

Of course I agree with all of your criticism of Httyd3. Yes the movie felt strained. But I admit that because I enjoyed Hiccup’s hesitant yet determined character again, I can overlook its flaws much easier than the flaws of Httyd2.

Let me know what you think!

#httyd #httyd2 #httyd3 #httyd franchise #analysis #httyd analysis #httyd2 analysis #httyd3 analysis #wherethekiteflies #wherethekitethought #b #ask #asks #anon #anonymous

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kingofthewilderwest · 3 years

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You know what's weird? I've heard some people have the same problems with both HTTYD sequels. I'm curious, what is it about them that didn't work for fans of the first movie?

We could write long discussions on this, but I think it all boils down to this:

You can’t repeat perfection.

The first How to Train Your Dragon movie was the perfect balance of simple and emotionally complex, quiet and exciting, humorous and sincere. Every scene is a perfect contribution to the whole. It’s the heartfelt story of a young boy who struggles to be accepted by his homeplace, butts heads with his father, befriends a dragon against all taboo, and finds approval from his home and family for being himself.

But a sequel cannot (by nature of it being a sequel) do the same thing as the first movie. If you repeat the first movie a second time, that’s boring and lazy. And once you diverge to make things interesting, some people won’t be on board with what you changed from the tone, plot, ideas, world, etc. of the original. As soon as divergence happens, you’re going to lose people, no matter what.

I respect the fact Dean DeBlois was bold enough to get radically different by aging up the characters and introducing armies and a broader world, but of course once you do that, you change the name of the game, so even if he had done everrrrryyyything else perfectly, he’s innately altering the nature of what it means to be a How to Train Your Dragon movie. Not every fan is going to like that and I fully believe that’s unavoidable for sequel reactions.

Then, additionally, things weren’t as perfectly done in the sequels as the first film. Plot structure, balancing quiet scenes with action, making sure all the emotional threads and plot points are thought through, character moments, etc. weren’t on the same level as the first movie. Because the first movie, again, is like, perfection. People can talk about how HTTYD 2 and THW don’t have as comfortable of pacing, or how Hiccup’s personality feels different, or how Astrid’s romantic arc in THW doesn’t add the right things, or how aging the characters up changes the vibe, or how Stoick’s death felt dark, or how the Light Fury’s design felt uninspired, or a whole other host of things. But that frustration comes about because of a comparison to the original. If we just had those movies on their own, not as part of a larger franchise, some of these constructive critical discussions would be different. The original movie is such an impossibly amazing standard that it makes the still-really-great-moments of the other two movies maybe not feel as solid...... by nature of what we’re comparing it to.

#httyd #How to Train Your Dragon #DreamWorks Dragons #httyd2 #httyd 2 #How to Train Your Dragon 2 #THW #The Hidden World #httyd3 #httyd 3 #How to Train Your Dragon 3 #analysis #my analysis #ask me #awesome anonymous friend #Anonymous

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odair-hofferson · 5 years

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HTTYD3 HYPOTHESIS

HTTYD3 SPOILERS!!!

I wanna share with all of you a think that has crossed my mind since I watched HTTYD3 and I want your opinion about it.

We are so happy to see that Hiccup and Astrid have had two children and Toothless and the Light Fury three dragons, but something is stuck in my mind and I wanna analyse these babies.

Zephyr and blue eyed Nightlight

Both have blue eyes that come from their mother's. The body and the hair (colour reference parts) come from their father's. Zephyr is a girl and, at the moment, I will consider that this nightlight is female because her tail is like her mother's one, just for the analysis (in the picture it can't be seen, but in the movie you can see it better).

Nuffink and white Nightlight

Both have green eyes that come from their father's. The body and the hair come from their mother's too. Nuffink is a boy and I'll consider that this nightlight is male because the same reason, the tail is like his father's one.

You have started to see the way I'm taking, right? But we have forgotten the last nightlight.

Applying the previous analysis. If we transform this dragon into a human, we can say he would be a boy with auburn hair and green eyes.

So here is the great question:

What if Dean has left us an easter egg where Hiccup and Astrid are still waiting for another baby Haddock?

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thethiefandtheairbender · 5 years

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httyd3 :: without needing words

I was thinking about How to Train Your Dragon: the Hidden World earlier, as one does, and something struck me about this short, silent scene yet again, during the mid point of “As Long As He’s Safe.”

Beyond being incredibly painful, there is beauty in the non verbal communication displayed between Hiccup and Toothless - something they’ve perfected after six years together - so now I want to look at what’s being said, in more detail. The battle is over, the reunions with both each other and their partners have happened, and Toothless looks toward the horizon. We can see in the shot before he’s thinking about, processing, something.

And my best guess is that Toothless is remembering what happened before Grimmel showed up, and everything turned into a panicked blur. Remembered choosing to get Hiccup safely out of the Hidden World himself rather than to let Stormfly do it, even if it cost him his mate, and what Hiccup had been saying before the Light Fury had appeared: “You belong there, with her. We don’t. And that’s okay. We’ll find a way to manage...”

And then, what Hiccup exclaims once the Light Fury does appear: “Maybe we don’t have to say goodbye after all!”

So this look, back to Hiccup, after the horizon, those eyes that urge Hiccup forward, Toothless’ soft croons as he leans into his boy’s touch?

He’s asking, Do I still need to go?

#httyd #httyd3 #httyd 3 #httyd meta #toothless #brotp: my best friend #analysis #mine #brotp: you are the reason to go on living #yeah i cried WHAT OF IT

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crazy4dragons · 5 years

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I know this may be a bit controversial, but one of the reasons I love HTTYD3 is that Hiccup had to grow as a leader and as a person before he felt ready to marry Astrid. Now, you might be thinking "But he loved Astrid for years; he should've been ready," but allow me to unpack this a bit, because I can relate to Hiccup. I feel like I've grown up with Hiccup. In HTTYD, he's an awkward teenager trying to fit in; something I struggled with in high school. In HTTYD2, he doesn't know if he's on the right path. At that age (I was a freshman in college when the movie came out), I definitely didn't know if I was on the right path, either. Then we have HTTYD3, where Hiccup is an adult with a career ahead of him who still questions himself. And I'm an adult in grad school who still questions myself. Nine months ago, I was feeling very lost and confused, and in the middle of all this came a guy. I liked him a lot, and he liked me, and everything was going great. But it fell apart because I screwed up and pushed him away. And looking back, I did that because I wasn't ready. I still needed to work on myself, and find my way in the world, and it's hard to do that while still maintaining a relationship. Yes, Hiccup was already in a relationship, but marriage would've been a huge responsibility for him. For instance, with no reliable birth control, the risk of pregnancy would be there, and there's no way he felt ready to be a dad just then (I know there's some debate over this, but I think Hiccstrid waited to have sex until the wedding night for this reason). And aside from the risk of pregnancy, he didn't have his life on track yet, so he didn't feel ready to marry and start a new chapter with Astrid. It's not that he didn't love her, just like it wasn't that I didn't like the guy I was dating. He just knew he wasn't ready. But during HTTYD3, Hiccup matures. He grows as a person and as a leader. And that moment at the end, when Tuffnut says, "Now that's marriage material" is when Hiccup finally reaches a point where he feels stable enough to marry Astrid. And I totally get that because now, nine months later, I feel ready. I have a career starting, I know I'm gonna finish school, and I'm about to get a place of my own. I feel like I have my life on track, and I'd feel good about going into a relationship if the guy ever decides he wants to try again. So even though it might seem a little weird that Hiccup doesn't want to marry Astrid at the start of HTTYD3, I totally get it. He didn't want to because he wasn't ready. It wasn't that he didn't love her, it was that he needed to finish finding himself. And this is why I appreciate this franchise so much.

#httyd3 #httyd3 spoilers #long post #analysis #hiccup #hiccstrid #relationships

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falling-last-stardust · 5 years

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Analyzing Hiccup’s map in HTTYD: The Hidden World

I was just admiring the details in The Hidden World, and I couldn’t help but notice one thing that made me squee with joy.

The map that Hiccup uses in the film is the exact one used for Race to the Edge when it first came out. Below are close-up snippets of the map seen in THW, and I was able to spot many familiar locations introduced across the Dreamworks Dragons franchise.

Long post so putting under a cut below.

Snippet #1

Dragon Island - first seen in HTTYD

Thor Rock Island, Sunstone Island and Cresent Island - first seen in the Defenders of Berk episode “Appetite for Destruction”

Wingmaiden Island - first seen in the Race to the Edge episode “Snotlout’s Angels”

Snippet #2

Outcast Island - first seen in the Riders of Berk episode “Alvin and the Outcasts”

Screaming Death Island - first seen in the RTTE episode “Night of the Hunters, Part 1″

Ship Graveyard - first seen in the RTTE episode “Dragon Eye of the Beholder, Part 1", and where Hiccup first found the Dragon Eye.

Valka’s Mountain - first seen in HTTYD2. The reason why this looks upside down in the film (from the actual full map) could be due to that part of the map being folded.

Snippet #3

Storehouse Island - first seen in the RTTE episode “Turn and Burn”

The Rookery - first seen in Gift of the Night Fury

Snippet #4

Dragonvine Island - first seen in the graphic novel Dragonvine

Snippet #5

Iron Isle - first seen in the RTTE episode “Snotlout Gets the Axe”

Sleipnir Island - first seen in the RTTE episode “Midnight Scrum”

Melody Island - first seen in the RTTE episode “Imperfect Harmony”

Breakneck Bog - first seen in the ROB episode “Breakneck Bog”

And finally:

We got to see a full view of this map in this scene below.

When I rotated the map to it’s correct position, I can see that all sections are now unfolded.

And despite the weird angle, it overall matches the map released for RTTE (as below), which you can access in full resolution on the Dreamworks TV website.

In addition, I was able to pinpoint the major locations in the map as marked below.

I am so happy that Dreamworks has included this map in THW as an Easter Egg for us hardcore fans of the franchise, especially of the TV series where many of these locations mentioned above had appeared. In addition, this is not just a nice reference to the other parts of the franchise, but to me this further reinforces that all instalments (except the games like School of Dragons and Rise of Berk) are set in the same continuity and universe.

Overall these are the locations I was able to spot so far when the map was shown in close-up scenes in The Hidden World, but if you have spotted any other locations not mentioned above, please let me know and I will update this post accordingly.

Bonus:

As seen in the RTTE episode “A Grim Retreat”, Hiccup has already started working on his map.

Here are some interesting things I have observed based on this screenshot above:

Most of the maps of the west side of the archipelago are missing, which makes sense as Hiccup and the gang had not yet ventured into those parts until possibly after HTTYD2.

Valka’s Mountain is also missing, since Hiccup hasn’t been reunited with his mother at that time.

Itchy Armpit is missing as well, as Hiccup and Toothless will not discover that place until HTTYD2.

Dragon Island and the nearby islands like Thor Rock, Cresent Island and Sunstone Island are seen. This is because those islands were prominently featured in Defenders of Berk, which is set before RTTE.

The Rookery (which made it’s first appearance in Gift of the Night Fury) is present. This is consistent with the timeline of GOTNF taking place after the events of HTTYD but way before RTTE, where the dragons departed to for their mating season. As Hiccup had already been to that place, it makes sense that he would already include it into the map by the time he was working on it in RTTE.

Storehouse Island can also be seen near The Rockery, as this location first appeared in the episode right before this one (where this screenshot is from).

Despite the limited budget for RTTE, I am pleased that they actually took into consideration for what they should and should not show in the map in that episode to match the overall continuity of the franchise. Much appreciation to Dreamworks for doing that!

#httyd #httyd3 #dreamworks dragons #hiccup's map #analysis #long post

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