#httyd2 analysis
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I love your post about backend motivation vs frontend motivation in the HTTYD series!!! I’ve always had a bit of a problem with the sequels (especially the third movie) that I could never put into words, but the difference in motivation is EXACTLY it. The Hidden World in particular had a specific ending in mind, wich isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but their solution was to force the ending into existence instead of letting the story naturally build up to the ending. And you can feel the story straining soooooo much when Toothless acts like a dog for twenty minutes or Grimmel does something simple/obvious that the narrative treats as an ingenious act of strategy. It’s just not genuine! The characters simply wouldn’t act like that, but the writers let plot dictate characters instead of the other way around, and it’s just. so disappointing. There has to have been a way to keep the natural tensions and eventual triumphs of dragon/human bonds without resorting to flattening everyone’s character and taking the story in a weird, half-baked direction.
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Oh my gosh B. You’re still there??????? THANK YOU for being faithful to my blog even tho I’ve not really posted anything proper in ages!!! I’m so happy to hear from you!!!
I’m glad you liked my post XD Ok so. I remembered that what I tried to express is called “Watsonian vs. Doylish” interpretation in fandom (based on this post), or easier, it’s about giving in-universe explanations vs. ex-universe explanations for something that happens in the plot. The actual literary terms according to Gérard Genette for that would be “intra-diegetic” vs. “extra-diegetic”.
The specific difference the terms “back-end vs. front-end motivation” makes, seems to be the phenomenon that building a story from the start allows it to better make sense inside the universe, whereas building a story from its ending reveals the circumstances that the author found themselves in when creating it.
Anyway so what I always found strange is that Httyd2 had all those same problems you named, yet no one talks about that and only bashes on the third movie! Wanna enlighten me on why the second movie worked for you???
Ok so this is spontaneously going to turn into the “Ooc Hiccup post” that I promised at the beginning of the year. I hope you’re ok with that.
WHY IS HICCUP OOC IN HTTYD2?
because his new conflict (”becoming Chief”) was pulled out of thin air and wasn’t already an established extension of Berk’s situation. (a part I always loved about Httyd1 was that Hiccup wasn’t made out to be a Disney Princess who would have to face the duty of leading eventually. I expected the question of succession to be handled far more casually - that someone who wanted to be worthy could be Chief on Berk, not because Hiccup was expected to continue Stoick’s legacy. In fact I wish Stoick would have let him go rampant with the smithy and all his crazy inventions, making him Gobber’s successor first - since Gobber is also canonically older than Stoick - and lining Astrid up to be the next actual Chief. There could have been a sudden plot twist where Astrid realizes she doesn’t want to do it alone and that she needs Hiccup in this with her. It would have made them the ruling couple in a different way.)
because the movie made him immature on purpose so it could justify slapping the “necessary” growth arc on him. (Look, Hiccup has always been reckless and a little bit too trusting when presented with danger, but he was never ignorant of a certain reality or too stupid to see error in his ways. Httyd2 depicts him as a naive dragon geek who can’t see past the destructive potential this has on the humans around him. Eret has had a shit life and a dark past. Drago has his reasons for what he does. Yet Hiccup is far too quick to ignore the trauma that the tribes of the Archipelago suffered because of the dragon plague, and simply forgives his mother despite the fact that she chose to save dragons over raising her own son. It’s all in the name of dragon welfare now and that is just not Hiccup. Og Hiccup took time to engage with Astrid’s valid scepticism. Og Hiccup killed the Red Death to save his tribe. He did not attempt to train that one, if you get what I’m saying. The dragons were never pets.)
because Stoick died only so he wouldn’t get in the way of Hiccup’s leadership. (After all that happens, Hiccup - to me - hasn’t suddenly evolved into a wiser or more experienced person. He just righteously got his ass kicked for the stupidity that was forced onto his character. He then becomes Chief not because he has learned much from the situation, but because Stoick is now dead. It’s true that Hiccup says “Sorry, Dad” to the funeral pyre, but it is never specified what he’s sorry for. To me, he does understand that he got his father killed, but he doesn’t get a grasp on why. He hasn’t the faintest notion of what Stoick did for him, to what extent his father came after him. There was desperation in Stoick to save his son. And Hiccup never feels this guilt much. It is then very convenient that he can freely lead the people of Berk and appear as a competent Chief simply because there is no more Stoick to disagree with him. I loved the version in the books where Hiccup becomes king and Stoick as well as Valhallarama are both alive and well to see it!!!! And Stoick, Chief of the Hairy Hooligans, has to take a step back and let his son shine.)
Right. So that’s that. The second point is by far my greatest criticism regarding Httyd2. Hiccup, in my opinion, was always balanced between the needs of dragons and humans. He is not a “dragon geek”. It simply so happened that a dragon became his best friend because no one else wanted to be his friend at first. Movie!Hiccup is an “invention geek”!!! The time he spends building stuff in the smithy is so important to his character! He doesn’t fix stuff by talking. He fixes stuff by building tools first and explaining them to everyone else second. That’s how I’ve always understood him. Httyd3 Hiccup partly returned to that focus with his fireproof armor, the fully developed flightsuits and the docking contraption for ships that he made on New Berk. The Hiccup I know acts more, gains emotional insight by observation, and talks less.
Of course I agree with all of your criticism of Httyd3. Yes the movie felt strained. But I admit that because I enjoyed Hiccup’s hesitant yet determined character again, I can overlook its flaws much easier than the flaws of Httyd2.
Let me know what you think!
#httyd#httyd2#httyd3#httyd franchise#analysis#httyd analysis#httyd2 analysis#httyd3 analysis#wherethekiteflies#wherethekitethought#b#ask#asks#anon#anonymous
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You ever think about how Valka in HTTYD2 is basically what Hiccup would've become had Astrid not stopped him from running away?
Valka didn't return to Berk because she didn't believe people could change. She believed the people of Berk would always hate dragons, and that trying to persuade them otherwise would be futile.
Hiccup probably would've thought the same thing as his mother, had he not been able to bring Astrid around to his side. Astrid, the most devoted among her peers to her training to one day protect Berk by fighting the dragon menace, was able to change her mind about dragons. If Hiccup could change her mind, he could change his whole village's mind.
Valka never got a chance to change someone's mind about dragons, so she never got a chance to change her mind about people (that is, not until she saw what Hiccup had accomplished).
#httyd#httyd2#how to train your dragon#how to train your dragon 2#valka haddock#hiccup haddock#astrid hofferson#hiccstrid#httyd analysis
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Hello there! I saw a post you made in 2015 about translating text in rtte! Now i get that that is 9 years ago (wow.) But i decided that i could try to shoot my shot anyway. My question is, would you be interested in helping me figure out what the text on the httyd 2 map says? On said post you mentioned not being able to read a lot of it, but i have a very high quality picture of it.
It seems that there is 2 alphabets used? Things like "Berk" and "Volcano still active" seem to be spelled differently from the dragon names.
Trough looking at all the things i could easily read, i figured out a big part of one of the alphabets (which is mostly just a stylised font)
Heyo heyo! [waves] Looks like you've got a fun project going on, and I'm glad to see it!
Goodness golly, The Ancient Days. XD I sorta remember talking about httyd "texts." I think I remember not being able to read everything when we had screencaps and low quality images, but I'm surprised I hadn't talked about the map later when we got the high quality image, since that's been out for eternity, and I remember reading it all for myself (as you said, it's basically just the Roman alphabet in a stylized font with some "Futhark" thrown in - lots of httyd text elsewhere is just cumbersomely transliterating English with the first Futhark alphabet image result on Google, after all). Maybe someone else had posted their results and I sat aside, or I let it slide???? Who knows, hah! I'm sorry I left you hanging back then, but I'm glad you're picking it up!
I'm grateful you thought of me and brought stuff up - it can be fun to return to things, however long it's been or not. XD I'll softly admit... I don't have the interest to look at it. And I hope I don't sound flippant or dismissive... I'm rooting for your project. I have full confidence you can get it all! Please go out, have maximal fun, go big, go bold, enjoy your project!!! Thanks for thinking of me, ferreals. Dragons 5ever.
#ask#ask me#httyd#How to Train Your Dragon#httyd2#httyd 2#analysis#my analysis#ye olde tags I used to use all the time XD#bag-0f-b0nes
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Hi! So, you remember Stoick's funeral in HTTYD2 just after they've all fired their burning arrows then the camera gives shots of the group's reactions (Fishlegs crying, Snotlout trying to hide tears, etc.) - I'm interested to know how you interpret Astrid's reaction, that sort of piteous smile she gives Hiccup? How do you interpret that? Thanks!
Hiccup says “I’m sorry, dad” and then we flash to Astrid, who had previously been zoned out on where the arrow’s hit... perhaps noting Hiccup’s silhouette in the flames moving in the foreground...
...Then, as though his words have just reached her, she reacts with a close-lipped, almost exasperated-but-knowing smile. Like it was those words, from Hiccup, that drew her from reflection.
And that’s the best way I tend to interpret her little reaction. That she hears this depreciating comment that is just… so Hiccup. That’s he’s apologizing, again, because she knows, probably better than anyone (save, perhaps, for Gobber) that Hiccup’s always held this unrealistic understanding of how his own father viewed him. Regardless of all the progress the pair have made in communication, Hiccup still can’t shake the weight that he’s somehow coming up short in his father’s eyes, that he had somehow failed him, or disappointed him, in some manner or another. Astrid will, and has, told him otherwise -- been the mediator between the two men -- but both are stubborn and far too alike.
So here Hiccup stands, choosing “sorry” as his final words to his father. And despite everything that’s just gone down Astrid can only think how Hiccup it is.
Again, this is just how I’ve chosen to read it. I’ve mentioned it in other posts (here and here, specifically) but I found Astrid sort of annoyingly muted throughout the movie. Especially when it came to big emotional moments. We had her delightfully readable in the first movie – tearful and reactive; angry and ugly. Stoick’s funeral and Hiccup’s “almost death” were just… bleh. Here we have Valka, Hiccup’s estranged mother, shrieking and throwing herself at the ice surrounding her child and Astrid falls back into pretty-plot-device-on-stand-by.
#HTTYD2#Astrid Hofferson#httyd analysis#character analysis#recs rants rambles#httyd2 analysis#httyd2 talk#nothingbuttheawesome#Thank you for asking
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What can you tell me about Toothless’s electric blue state? The one in the boss battle of HTTYD2? I guess it’s some sort of Night Fury Super Secret Talent™ as it’s not an alpha thing, correlates with Toothless only, and is part of the Night Fury Lightning Thing (unholy offspring of lightning and death itself HELLYEAH)
Ah yes, our blue glowy boi
Clearly, Toothless is a Pokémon, went level-up by saving Hiccup’s life, and learnt a new move.
The interesting thing about Toothless is that we will never really find out whether he’s unique or whether the “powers” he displays are a general Night Fury trait. After all, we have no one to compare him with. So this leaves us all free to interpret it the way we want to.
My interpretation is that this is something all Night Furies can do, and that it definitely relates to the lightning abilities as well. It’s not unique to Toothless, but it’s also not a “state” Night Furies are often found in. It’s a trait that only comes out under severe stress, in a situation in which the Night Fury is truly desperate to survive - or to protect someone else. Like Toothless with Hiccup. A “you die, I die but please don’t let us die” situation, with the ice in HTTYD2.
This does make the story of Grimmel hunting down all Night Furies a lot more interesting. Did he ever encounter one where this blue state was triggered? Did he know about it? Did he adjust his hunting techniques accordingly, sneaking up on them or tranquilizing and killing them before they could “activate”?
Moving on to Toothless the Alpha; I don’t think it’s the blue glow that makes Toothless an Alpha, by default. But it gave him an extra dose of power, and of confidence perhaps, to establish his dominance over the Bewilderbeast and become the new Alpha. That logic begs the question whether this means other dragons can become Alpha, besides the Night Fury, the Red Death and the Bewilderbeast… And I think the answer is definitely yes. I just don’t think it goes for all of them. But some species are born as natural Alphas - the Red Death, the Bewilderbeast. And other species, under specific situations, such as the end of HTTYD2, can rise to the position of Alpha as well.
Those are my thoughts on it! If you, or any other people, have other ideas, I’d be happy to hear them! :)
(Unholy offspring of Lightning and Death itself Hell yeah indeed!)
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i cannot FUCKING believe its been 5 years and ive Just realized stoick's ship is just a sad reprise of stoick's theme from the httyd intro
#also i realized a while ago that forbidden friendship is a reprise of downed dragon. im so.#I CANT BELIEVE IT TOOK AN ANALYSIS VIDEO FOR ME TO REALIZE JDKDHFD#how many times. how many times have i watched the movies and listened to the soundtrack. HOW MANY#httyd#my posts#httyd2
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Soul of a Dragon?
“You have the heart of a chief...and the soul of a dragon." - Valka
When I’m not working or sleeping--I’m rewatching all the HTTYD movies/shows in preparation for the new movie and I think I noticed something about Hiccup that’s different from the other dragon riders.
Certainly, we’ve all noticed that “he (Hiccup) has a way with the beasts,” but his way with them isn’t like the others. Like, in Dragon’s: Race to the Edge we see all the riders spend a great amount of time with their dragons, especially since they’re all living on the island alone together, but Hiccup and Toothless are different. What I mean is that they are inseparable by comparison, even to Fishlegs and Meatlug.
When looking at the series, a lot of the dragons sleep outside or have their own space in a different room or on a different floor of their homes--but Toothless and Hiccup sleep in the same room. When the twins are building a watchtower, their dragon is only with them some of the time, but Toothless almost never leaves Hiccup’s side. And looking at all the dragons, one can see that the dragons don’t communicate to their respective owners the same way Toothless and Hiccup do. For example, if Hookfang doesn’t like something, he ignores Snotlout’s orders and sometimes even aggressively pushes him away. Meatlug goes along with Fishlegs, but there isn’t a sense of communication there so much as bending to the will of her nice owner because she likes to appease him. Stormfly takes directions well but is ultimately going to choose Astrid’s safety over her directions. Barf and Belch go along with the twins and enjoy chaos, but will also toss the twins around or fight back if they feel like something is too dangerous. The dragons protect their owners, and sort of trust them, but also treat them like children at times--rolling their eyes at behavior, ignoring their orders, etc. BUT, not to Toothless or Hiccup. Why? The main thought is trust. Hiccup mentions it often--once you earn their trust you have their loyalty forever, but I think it might be more than that.
Valka said that Hiccup has “the heart of a chief...and the soul of a dragon," and I wonder if that is hinting to something that even she doesn’t fully understand. In HTTYD2, when the Cloudjumper breaks in, we see him destroy the house but stop as if it feels or notices Hiccup’s presence. His eyes go from the narrow attack slits we see when dragons are aggressive to a wide-eyed look. He reaches out to the baby and when he notices Valka, the aggression is back for a moment, his body moving to cover Hiccup and only relaxing when he sees Valka isn’t going to attack. Adding to this idea, Cloudjumper becomes aggressive again the moment Stoic comes back and rushes for Hiccup.
Hiccup has always had a way with them, even before he meets Toothless and learns about them. Valka also has a way with them, but it's different. She’s learned how to be with them--going so far as to copy their bows to the Bewilderbeast alpha dragon and such, but Hiccup is different. Hiccup doesn’t bow to the Bewilderbeast, he just stands the in awe of it.
Perhaps Hiccup does have the soul of a dragon, or at least a deeper kinship to them to than others and, if so, how will that be shown in the latest installment of the HTTYD animated universe?
#httyd#httyd2#httyd3#how to train your dragon 2#how to train your dragon#how to train your dragon 3#how to train your dragon hidden world#analysis#theory
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Some Hiccup’s Hubris + Self Discovery Thoughts
So, I don’t know how old or rehashed this is, but I’ve been going down some old HTTYD2 analysis tags (on @kingofthewilderwest’s and @peachdoxie’s blog) and coming up to the point of Hiccup’s overconfidence in his belief that changing Drago’s mind is the best solution. And I think there’s even more nuance to be discovered about his stubborn hubris in optimism here.
Hiccup knows his Dad wants to make him chief. He was virtually about to crown him that very morning, before Hiccup up and ran. He doesn’t want to be chief, because he doesn’t know how to be chief––doesn’t know how to be the great, brave, selfless man his father is. But when the Drago threat comes up and he once against feels that tension between his father’s opinion and his own, he’s trapped in that dichotomy again that has defined his entire childhood: try to be your Dad and fail miserably, or trust your gut and do the only thing you know how to do.
The catalyst that drives Hiccup to go against his father this time isn’t to save Toothless like it was in HTTYD1 (the confrontation of the Kill Ring), but to prove to his Dad that he could be chief, with the person and beliefs he is. Hiccup knows it’s coming, he can’t avoid it, so right now, in this moment of crisis, he’s going to attempt to do what he would do if he were chief: follow his gut and his beliefs. Hiccup is literally trying to stay true to himself, and to craft his own chieftainship based on what he knows he is––a peacekeeper, not a warrior. Hiccup doesn’t do speeches and planning and war.* He can’t follow his Dad’s footsteps because he knows he’ll fail. Plus, following his Dad would only make him a follower, someone like his young self when he tried to mask his beliefs with the values of others. So he has to trust his gut, despite the advice and words of others, because that’s the only path he knows works for him, and the only experience he’s had. “This is what I’m good at.” There’s so much vulnerability in that statement IMO, the way he says it, like that’s his main reason for his attempt.
He’s on a quest for personal discovery in HTTYD2, and talking to Drago to change his mind is as much a proof for his Dad as it is for himself that who he is can be translated into this new, unknown thing as chieftainship.
Obviously that doesn’t work out, but it’s because the growth he’s experience in HTTYD1––that trusting one’s instinct is good and that war van be avoided––needs now to be tempered by the maturity of taking value in the past, that sometimes purity to self and rejection of the past isn’t the best path. Sometimes you have to take the old––the ugly, the violent, the tragic, the backwards––sometimes you have to take the things you left behind and integrate them into your new worldview because the past isn’t always something to reject; the past is a reservoir of all the knowledge (good and ill) gained by those who lived longer lives than our young selves have. Our individual selves are built on our parents, our grandparents, our history. Rejecting those old values are often a good thing, but not always. We need to prove ourselves, but at some point we need to put aside who we are and look back to the things we’re not.
And HTTYD is so mature and insightful in teaching that, because so often today we think everything from the past must be rejected. But sometimes war is unavoidable. Sometimes people aren’t good, even when given the chance. Sometimes you can’t be yourself.
This is why HTTYD is such a powerful set of stories. They go so far beyond the usual children’s film tropes and reach for something even more complex and powerful.
* This is where Hiccup in HTTYD2 diverges from Hiccup in RTTE a lot. Like, Hiccup in the show can totally makes speeches and confidently take on the world. Film franchise!Hiccup is afraid of leadership. I’m sure there’s a tidy reason for it, but atm I’m just laughing my ass off at the continuity.
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tejoxys
I finally saw the Endgame spoilers clip
*rubbing my grubby little hands together bc I love a good roast*
Welp, if it’s a roast you want, a roast you shall receive!
(Note: I think I spoke vaguely enough about everything big in the Clips below NOT to warrant an outright Spoilers tag, so I’m leaving it with just an Endgame Leaks tag and a ‘Read More’ line. Message me if you’ve a.) seen the Clips/gone scrolling for more info in the Spoilers tag and b.) think it’s more spoilery than I try to vague it to be, and I’ll tag it post haste)
Christ Almighty, the Clips just make everything look like an enormous MESS.
Thor looks just... awful. In every scene. LITERALLY EVERY SCENE HE’S IN IN THESE SPOILERIFIC CLIPS, HE LOOKS TERRIBLE. There isn’t a single one where he doesn’t look like a mess. Everyone else gets a glow-up (new hair, tattoos, freshly shaved) and looks put together in general (which is admittedly baffling - really, EVERYONE looks good in the face of mass genocide and failure to stop it from occurring?) but Thor decided to whip out his Big Lebowski cosplay at their big ‘save the world’ get-together... why??? (seriously Thor, was a shower too much to ask for?)
Now, if we’d had ANY inclination that anyone else looked rough aside from Tony and Nebula a la the stuck-in-space teaser trailers we saw originally, that would be one thing. Everyone there lost a loved one, everyone there has probably had to come to terms with the fact that they FAILED TO STOP THANOS when they were all right freakin’ there! NO ONE SHOULD LOOK 100% OKAY HERE. Show me dishevelment, poor coping mechanisms, show them having to struggle for weeks (maybe even MONTHS) after the events.
But nope! They are ALL in perfect health according to the trailers we’ve seen before. Even Tony, after nearly dying in space multiple times, just takes a bath and appears to be in fine health after getting back (with some bags under the eyes). Everyone’s perfectly fine, except for Thor (and maaaaaybe Hawkeye, who looks to have gone full-on Frank Miller Batman in his quest for vengeance, but still had time to get a mullet and some sweet sleeve tats in between!).
Nice.
This is a MASSIVE problem with the MCU as a whole, and has been for a while: their repeated attempts to gloss over and sweep consequences of mental trauma and illness away under the rug until it suits them for plot convenience or for comedy. You see this in the Thor sequels a LOT (Selvig being institutionalized for comedy after being possessed, Loki being kept in literal solitary confinement for roughly 2 years, Valkyrie’s PTSD and alcoholism played for laughs, mocking Loki’s suicide attempt from Thor 1 and the actual death he survived in Thor 2, ALL of Odin’s outright dickishness as a parent a la narcissistic parenting, Hela being imprisoned in isolation for literal CENTURIES), as well as anything to do with Tony Stark and his thought process (everything he does is pretty much as a result of the trauma he endures, and everyone in the Avengers just??? doesn’t recognize it??? and attacks him for it without going ‘hey, maybe he’s got PTSD’ or something???? what the hell, man). GOTG does a MUCH better job of it with Rocket and Nebula, but Mantis is left woefully unrealized (thought they do touch upon it briefly, and handle it with relative seriousness).
Either way, Thor concerns me a LOT, because he is the king of a very small group of Asgardian refugees (and given the scene that shows in the Clips, as well as the appearance of another Thor character later on, we KNOW there were multiple survivors), trying to find a new life on Midgard in the face of not one, not two, but THREE fcuking tragedies - the destruction of Asgard, Thanos’ attack on their ship, and the Snap. Why is he the way he is, in the location he’s in (which actually appears to be the apartment from Team Thor’s mockumentary)? He is the only semblance of leadership left for these people who have lost everything and he’s Like That. Where is a Thor stressed and fretting over being fully responsible for once in his life over the lives of his people, over what little remains of his kingdom? Where is a Thor struggling with guilt as he tries to build a new life for his people, struggling with rule and politics and trade? WHERE IS HE??? Bc right now, all I see is Chris Hemsworth auditioning for the remake of The Big Lebowski, having wandered onto the Avengers set instead of his audition location by mistake -_-
The scenes with Steve leave me absolutely baffled (and some of them just ooze cheese, and not in a great way), because how in the fcuk do we get to those?? His scenes feel the most disjointed here, bc they all have a similar vibe to his personality in Whedon’s Avenger movies. Kind of the ‘Boy Scout’ presentation, which is particularly odd in the aftermath of the Russo Fools’ two Cap movies and Infinity Fcuk Up, which made him more serious, less - bright? I can’t think of a good word for it rn. This is particularly highlighted in his big ‘save the world’ speech we hear - it feels kind of like an ‘okay team, time to save the world!’ speech, instead of something more serious. Is it to try to bring everyone’s hopes up? What else is missing here that we’re not seeing? Why does he feel like he’s back to this persona in light of all that’s happened? Is it to highlight how good and awesome he is in order to {SPOILER REDACTED} like we see in that final sequence? (Also, the imagery for SPOILER REDACTED, while meant to be badass and awesome, feels... kind of awkward, IMHO. Which is weird, bc I thought it would be more amazing and awesome. IDK, maybe I’m just super jaded with the MCU by now).
Carol Danvers’ scenes are actually pretty on point. She gets to be a badass in her fighting scenes and gets an awesome new look that pretty much only functions to further cement her Lesbian Status. The only way she would be more obviously a Lesbian is if her suit were in the colors of (one of) the Lesbian Pride flags and a Cyndi Lauper song was playing in the background (or maybe Joan Jett).
Hulk/Bruce Banner... I don’t even know how they’re going to swing this. Like, at all. I’m particularly baffled bc given how some of the scenes appear to be set early in the film, it resolves extremely quickly to get to that point, and after all the drama of Hulk not coming out in Infinity Fcuk Up, I just - who the fcuk knows at this point. Also, that one scene with the {SPOILER REDACTED} could be effective depending on how they set it up, but then... why exactly is he the one in the scene with the {SPOILER REDACTED} and not Carol or Thor, due to Obvious Plot Reasons?
Finally, Peter Parker. He’s adorable in his scenes, ‘nuff said.
Now, after seeing these scenes, I am left EXTREMELY CONCERNED for this movie’s tone. Granted, it was only 5 minutes of footage for a 3 hour movie. Quite clearly, there is a LOT we aren’t seeing. All the same though, it feels extremely disjointed. I know they’re trying to pull away from the dark and grim ending of Infinity War, but these clips make it all feel a little too casual, a little too ‘let’s go beat the bad guy!’ as opposed to ‘we have suffered a great failure and a great tragedy - as heroes, we MUST work to undo this for the sake of those we have lost, and everyone left alive who has lost the people they loved’. Idk, that may just be me on this one.
But you know the worst part of all of THIS? The worst part is that this is probably what we’re going to get on the release date. This isn’t a trailer Marvel released with deleted live-action scenes featuring minimal to no CGI, or sections clumsily edited over with explosion effects - this was a slew of scenes with a TON of special effects fully rendered in painstaking detail, recorded with a phone on its side in what looks like a movie theater, with foreign subtitles on the screen (I honestly don’t recognize the alphabet, but it might be Middle Eastern). That CGI is expensive and time-consuming as all hell to do, and considering how many of these scenes had it? Either they wasted a shit-ton of money on scenes they didn’t use (seriously, a number of them have Rocket in them, or Hulk - those aren’t the easiest characters to render, I would imagine), or these are in the movie, end of story.
Not to mention, TPTB clamped down on these Clips HARD - like, IMMEDIATELY - as opposed to the process behind deleting Reddit comments. The fast and heavy response from Marvel and the Russo Fools, COMPLETE WITH OFFICIAL TWEET LETTER, along with a Chris Evans tweet not to Spoil the Shit, was to chastise the ones who did (which is somewhat warranted here, given how extreme the security on leaks for Endgame have been).
This response, combined with the quality of the clips, and some of the plot threads that actually seem to be mentioned/referenced in the Lego sets, leads me to believe it’s real.
And I’m not really impressed.
On the flipside, I’m actually kind of relieved, knowing what I’m going into when I walk into the theater opening weekend. I’m not going to be completely shocked and horrified by what I see. This works well in breaking the ice, and also eases some of my anxiety on what to expect (bc I have had a LOT of it for this movie).
The downside to this is that at the end of the day, this is what 22 films ultimately amounted to. Something that feels a little too glib, a little too rushed. Something that doesn’t feel like it’s doing right by the characters who were left, and the characters we love (at least, not in full).
I understand that this is an insurmountable task - to bring to film, with limited time, a satisfying conclusion to so many characters. To arrange hundreds of people within thousands of hours on a set budget to bring this massive story, building for over ten years now, to a close that will resonate and sate with as many fans as possible. But I read fanfiction that does just that with less time, fewer moments, no budget - hell, there are 10k oneshots that rewrote Infinity Fcuk to make sense and treat the characters with the respect that they’ve earned over 20+ films.
This? Doesn’t feel like those.
I will happily admit, I am guesstimating a LOT here, based off of what essentially amounts to 3% of the movie (slightly more, depending on how long the credits are sans post-credit scenes, but still roughly 3%). There is a LOT that is missing, which could fill in these gaps successfully and make this whole post look completely pointless. If it does that, I will gleefully concede that it fooled us on this one. Maybe all of these scenes really ARE hoaxes (even if they were painstakingly subtitled in a foreign language and shown on a movie theater-size screen, but I digress).
But the framing of the scenes looks like it was meant to showcase what the movie would be as a whole, in terms of tone and what to expect. And from that, I’m not excited, or overjoyed. I’m just tired.
And I cannot WAIT for this all to be over, bc I’m fcuking exhausted just watching 5 minutes. Lord knows what 182 of them will leave me like in the end.
*peers up at massive unending ranty analysis post* ...ah. Well then. that happened again. Ah well. Hope you had fun reading my nonsense brain goop, kiddos.
#tejoxys#avengers endgame#endgame leaks#analysis#plush rants#kind of#i am so tired#long post#if anyone wants to watch the Clips#i found a tumblr link that still has the video#dm me and i'll send it your way#normally i can actually guess a movie plot pretty damn well#i laid out both httyd2 and the good place's plots out just based off of trailers right off the bat#but this time? i REAAAAAAALLY hope i'm wrong#the only good part of this is that loki hasn't popped up in the Clips#also a bad part bc i Want To Know dammit#but after seeing thor here? it's a relief like no other
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Yo, I watched httyd 2 again and it seens like Cloudjumper could not fly without his tail fins...SO! If he lost that it would be harder to make another tail fin for him since he have 4 of them and it needs to be in a good place so Cloudy could fly by his own...I have no idea why I send this to you, just felt like telling this to someone
Well, disagree on some points. He actually has THREE fins.
you can read more on my analysis on his tail and how it works here, but im gonna add a little on to this. He could very possibly be able to fly without the middle tail-fin, but he won’t be as maneuverable as before.
Since in the scene where he gets his tail frozen, he’s probably struggling to fly because of dead weight, since ice is heavy and his entire tail is covered in it. Also his tail is probably as long as Valka is tall, so that’s a lot of ice.
Another thing we would be fighting against was the Alpha’s control. He flys right by the alpha as he’s gaining control of the other dragons, and he still has Valka on his back so he’s fighting it so she doesn’t get hurt.
This isnt really exactly what the ask is about, sorry. But it mostly is right?
#ALSO YES SEND ME ANYTHING CONCERNING THE OWL BABY#I LOVE IT WHEN YALL SEND ME THIS STUFF#httyd#how to train your dragon#cloudjumper#stormcutter#valka#valka haddock#httyd analysis#httyd 2#httyd2
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Ohhhhhhhhk Httyd2. Once more...
Toothless deserved an apology...
he deserved it so hard that it’s really difficult for me to rewatch the second movie actually because all it really leaves is bitterness about the crack in Toothcup’s friendship that’s never restored and Hiccup getting no chance at all to process his father’s death. There’s no catharsis for the viewer - for either of the two problems
Httyd2 deserved a two-hour-movie
“I won’t leave you, I won’t let you go” was NOT redundant it would have been the pathetic but viable excuse of that apology... something to reassure Toothless that Hiccup was never going to leave him in the first place, he just got a bit emotional which everyone would have understood
I need Hiccup to MOURN
I need their friendship to be RESTORED pls, like Hiccup was constantly abusing Toothless’ trust and otherwise ignoring him
really it was so freaking funny seeing everyone losing it over Httyd3 I was like ???? Httyd2 literally had all the same issues lol
one suggestion though: What if Eret had been a woman and it would have been Snotlout’s love story... please the guy deserves a great trapper lady to knock some growth into him also more women yasss
“I won’t leave you, I won’t let you go” was NOT redundant
“I won’t leave you, I won’t let you go” was NOT redundant
yes I’m kinda watching that reel over and over right now. It’s perfection and exactly what was needed. Let’s see if I find some more deleted scenes. The one with Cloudjumper at the beginning of Flying With Mother was always my favorite. But the “I got back something that I didn’t know I’d lost” one is also a treasure.
#httyd2#httyd2 analysis#analysis#wherethekiteflies#toothless#httyd2 deleted scenes#dane stogner#httyd2 concept art
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Astrid is an overrated character
I don’t really think she’s overrated. I might be critical of her, and she might have flaws that can be the most irritating to me out of a long list of them (EX: I love Kara from Supergirl, but her arrogance annoys me), but I still enjoy her as a character, and I still really like her and appreciate all the good qualities she has.
I understand that her character is not entirely fleshed out, but we have to remember that this isn’t her fault. After the first half of HTTYD 1, most of Astrid’s agency was taken away from her and now she is mostly used as a plot device in Hiccup’s story (arbitrary or otherwise- and in the tv show(s) as well as movies). She is designed to be the “hero’s girlfriend.” She was designed to be stereotypically pretty, especially in later years with the Disneyfication of her looks (I have a whole theory on this, stay tuned). She often falls off her dragon, just so Hiccup can save her, and she doesn’t have many interests outside of Hiccup. She is a tough and ambitious girl, but the whole reason she was created in the first place was to fulfill Hiccups wishes of getting the girl. She is more than this though, we as fans do know that she is more than just Hiccup’s girl, but sadly she is not always treated this way. In this post and this post they further detail what exactly I am talking about.
And I also get how it can be frustrating that she gets more attention than some of the other dragon riders, but she still is a secondary character (this post talks about why she is), even though she does get more screentime than the others. And while this might get her more attention from DW and the general audience, this also opens her up to more hate and criticism from people. For example, I know there is a pretty fair amount of people who dislike or hate her.
And don’t get me wrong, it’s okay not to like a character! We all have our own tastes! If you don’t like Astrid and think she is overrated, that’s fine, it’s your opinion and you’re allowed to have it! As long as we are all respectful towards each other, we should be allowed to dislike certain characters or ships. And as a fandom, we need to remember not to attack people for their certain viewpoints, i.e. liking/not liking characters or ships.
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twitch
Humanizing Dragons and Dog-izing Toothless
Been a while since I've posted HTTYD analyses, so thought I'd pull a clip from last night's stream where we went in depth talking Dragons!
Concepts more or less in clip:
Fandom dumbing down dragons to the point of hapless pets versus treating dragons the same psychologically as humans
The middle ground - treating dragons as a separate species, highly intelligent animals
HTTYD franchise depicting dragons from a naturalistic perspective
Toothless's mannerisms being a combination of creatures in the first film - cat, rabbit, horse, dog, etc. but the balance of those traits shifting to dog-like prominence by HTTYD 2
Shifting Toothless's traits after already being an established character is a disservice to the character we fell in love with
Toothless in the HTTYD 1 era - including small humanizing moments in GOTNF and why everything felt congruent
Toothless increasingly being treated as a cute gimmick for audience appeal instead of as an independent character
#probably going blunter and harder than I have in past years of analysis XD haha#httyd analysis#my analysis#analysis#httyd#How to Train Your Dragon#SoD#School of Dragons#DreamWorks Dragons#httyd2#httyd 2#How to Train Your Dragon 2#fandom hangout time yeeeeeet!!!!#was good chatting#video#GOTNF#Gift of the Night Fury
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Gobber lost quite a bit when Stoick died, but I haven't seen his grief addressed much. Any headcanons about how he struggled with the loss of his best (and maybe only?) friend? :,(
Oh man. Yeah, that’s some kind of hurt right there. Because to really appreciate his grieving, you’d have to acknowledge who Stoick was to him. The sort of history they had. That they’d known each other for practically their entire lives, confided in each other, practically co-parented together… I’ve tried to lay it out before, but I stopped before hitting up any movie events.
Gobber’s pretty pragmatic outside his tall tales. He understands the concept of Occupational Hazard. He’s lived through war. He’s lost friends. But Stoick was The Friend.
At first there’s so much going on that even grief is hard to pay proper attention to. There’s political chaos, social disarray, so, so much work to be done, and a young man wearing a very heavy cloak.
But Hiccup’s got people now – long gone is the boy solely reliant on Gobber and Stoick – and the young chief begins striding into a new era, aided by supporters. Gobber’s happy to watch his back, and to continue to support him in all the ways he supported his father.
Slowly, routine returns; a semblance of normalcy. That’s when the grief rises.
Gobber never stops talking to Stoick.
It starts with thoughtless comments: “Looks like a storm, eh Stoh?” and “Ack, Stoick, you’ll never believe what that damn boy’s done now…”
They fall comfortably enough from his mouth and are then left to hang in the air until realization rejoins with a sharp, cold snap.
After a while he’ll, mindfully, direct such comments to the sky. Then to the statue when it’s complete. Gobber finds himself at its feet, most often. Like it’s their new spot.
Sometimes he gives it updates on the village, and his son, and his wife, but mostly he uses it to complain, as he often complained to Stoick. He only wishes it would complain back. Then they’d be complete again.
He knows Hiccup visits the statue too. Gives it updates, mutters frustrations. Gobber puts in great effort to never cross paths there.
Sometimes Gobber’s feet take him up to the Chief’s house before his head hollers that Stoick won’t be there. Sure, the occupants would welcome him. Hiccup would open the door and invite him for shared food and ale, where he’d enjoy warmth and conversation and, perhaps, even a laugh. He can’t do it. He can’t watch Hiccup hand him a mug, and sit where he sat, wearing that cursed cloak, and go through the motions of a brotherhood that simply would never be replicated. He always turns around and stalks back to his quiet room.
He’ll sit at the same bench in the Meadhall and stare at the spot on his right where Stoick sat, as though willing it to be filled. He’ll snap at anyone who dares to.
Sometimes he sees Skullcrusher’s shadow pass underfoot and his heart will jump into his throat, only to look up and see Eret in flight. (And Eret had the saddle changed. It’s different. Gobber didn’t know until after the fact because Hiccup had done it himself… somehow worried that Gobber would find irrational anger in the act)
…and he had.)
He’s gotten into it with Valka on a couple of occasions, all of which were his fault, instigated by him, but she behaves cowed as though she’s responsible and it never helps his temper. Its unfair to her, life isn’t so black and white, but grief allows a small, petty part of Gobber to grow and rage that he lost a lifelong companion, and that he helped raise Hiccup through a war with dragons, and he stuck by Stoick through the past 20 years, and beyond that, and that he, more than anyone (save, perhaps, Hiccup) deserved to grieve to their fullest extent. In the early months all it took was a wrong comment and he would let her know such feelings with a harsh, whiplike comment. He’d walk away from such moments warmed by the soothing balm of satisfaction. Then, always, it would cool into something hollow and ugly, and he’d be left with remorse, and self-loathing, and wishing his best friend were there.
He’s crankier, without his outlet. His banter feels one-sided. He busies himself with saddles and weapons and repairs, he spends more free time with Grump, even if its just sleeping (a dangerous draw, a way to shut out reality at the worst of times), but he’s lonely. So incredibly lonely. A chunk of his life burned away with Stoick on that ship
Even as he heals, and finds new drive with a fresh apprentice, and watches the village grow and bloom under the shadow of Stoick’s likeness, there’s a vacuum in Gobber’s life that never gets filled.
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Maces and Talons: A Guide Made in an Evening
I know you know this, but just in case: these aren’t official rules to the game, it’s just something I came up with, as the title says, yesterday evening. It’s based on this analysis by @yv-sketches .
PIECES
49 pieces divided equally:
2 Chiefs: a Marauder Chief and a Viking Chief
4 Longships: they have their own power, can transport other pieces across the water.
2 Kingships: 1 in each army, they are more powerful than longships and transport the Chiefs.
16 Pawns
The Viking Chief can set up an Heir: a pawn that may be given a mace at the beginning of the game. If the VC is killed, the position will be passed on the Heir, who goes on to be called a Crowned Heir, or simply a Crown, and will inherit the Chief’s abilities and limitations (can only be killed with a mace, can only sail in a kingship, killing it will end the game in a loss) while retaining its own ability to kill any piece. This means the Viking Chief may be sacrificed to create a more powerful piece in the Crowned Heir, hence the “Honorable”. (Oh my god now I’m getting httyd2 feels.) There can only be one Heir in a game, and killing it gives the Marauder player another mace. It can also be captured and traded. As always, the players decide on the trade.
2 Heroes: a Dragon for the Marauders and a Swordsman for the Vikings.
6 Maces.
And 1 Traitor.
GENERAL GAMEPLAY
The game’s territories consist of the sea, three Islands - Viking Island, Marauder Island and No Man’s Land - and two Isles which have no effect on gameplay and so go unnamed.
In the initial set-up, the traitor starts out in No Man’s Land, while each player’s army starts out in their respective Island except for the ships, which go on the sides of it, on the sea. The Chiefs go behind the rest of the land pieces, forming a barrier in front of them to dissuade players from starting out with Divine Wrath.
The main goal of the game is for the players to use their armies to kill their opponent’s Chief, however, the underlying story is that the Vikings are fighting off a Marauder invasion, and that adds new options to the gameplay.
TRADE AGREEMENTS
At any point in the game, the players may decide to propose trade agreements to gain various benefits, such as recovering pieces, or the ability to move across water without a ship, or anything else - it’s meant to be a show of diplomacy and negotiation on the players’ part, and so it’s up to them to settle on a trade agreement. (Yes, this has ended in the creation of “strip Maces and Talons”. That’s diplomacy, too.)
Berkians play a particular variation that includes throwdowns, where opponents take turns to insult each other until 1) one of them takes longer than ten seconds to respond or 2) each opponent has gone through ten rounds of insults resulting in a stalemate. If this happens, the game goes on as it had been, however, in the case of there being a victor, they get to choose form a number of options: 1) making the dragon or the swordsman killable upon capture (they still have to be captured), 2) complete control over the traitor, 3) another mace, 4) a free Divine Wrath throw (explained later), 5) a forfeit of the winner’s choosing, which differs from a trade agreement because the loser gets nothing in exchange.
A throwdown has to be agreed on by both parties or started by the audience, if there is one.
JOURNEY AND SIEGE
Other than by killing the other’s Chief, each player can win in one other way.
The Vikings can win if, once the Chief dies, the Crown travels from the Viking Island through all the other lands and back again, while leaving one pawn, which function as “bases”, on each. Depending on local variations, the journey may be started by an Heir (although it must always be finished by a Crown), and/or one of the “bases” must be on Viking Island, requiring a fifth pawn there. This encourages the Viking player to put extra value on their pieces, or to be more brutal in their persecution of their opponent’s Chief. If the traitor’s on an Island (which it will be if it’s alive, since it can’t get on ships and so go off board), it will kill the base there, forcing another pawn to take its place and the Crown to sail to every land again. The Viking player is encouraged to kill the traitor, since that’s the only way to achieve victory this way. This method (it’s not considered a strategy, per se, since it can be achieved in many ways) is called the Hero’s Journey or the Journey for short.
The Marauders win when all their pieces, which must be equal or superior in number to the Viking pieces, make it to the Viking Island, succeeding in their “invasion”. This means that the player has an incentive to sacrifice and kill as many pieces as possible, to make the number more manageable. The traitor, no matter under whose control it is at the time, counts as a Viking piece, but with a value of 3, encouraging the Marauder player to get rid of it. This method is called the Red Siege or the Siege for short.
MOVEMENTS
The “steps” on the islands are meant to be beaches. For a piece to sail away either it or the ship must be on a beach. Having a ship on a beach means that more than one piece can come aboard at once, but it also puts the ship at risk since it’s the only time it can be destroyed by anything other than another ship (or a dragon).
Pieces can only move in straight lines, which can be in any direction, although they’re limited by height - each step up or down takes a turn. The only times the middle step can be skipped is when there’s a ship waiting on a beach, which can be boarded or attacked from anywhere on an island, or when killing a pawn.
Pieces can only move across water through ships, the only exceptions being the swordsman, the dragon and the traitor; Chiefs can only use kingships. For this, ships must first be taken to whatever island or isle the pieces to be moved are. Next turn, the ship can either be moved a different island or be taken to water - the pieces “aboard” will be switched out of the game until the player decides to bring them back. There’s no limit to how many times this can done, for how long or the amount of pieces that can be in play. However, if all ships are destroyed, the pieces won’t be able to come back for the remainder of the game. A Chief caught in the destruction of the kingship will die, ending in the loss of the game for its player, but other pieces can return to the board through the kingship.
DIVINE WRATH
Besides confrontations, pieces can be taken out through a “move” called Divine Wrath: a player may use a turn to throw a mace at the board and the first piece touched by it will be killed. The formations on the board make this especially interesting, since a rebound can hit a piece that’s protected from the throwing player’s perspective, or even hit their own pieces. Each player has three maces and each throw will use one, although they can earn a free throw by “trading hostages”. Since the Viking Heir has a mace, this means that the Vikings have one less throw. Additionally, it’s especially vulnerable to Divine Wrath because it must spend at least a turn on Marauder Island to complete a Journey, putting it close to the Marauder player.
A throw must be done in one of two ways (different variations may insist on one):
1) The player must throw from behind the board, aka, their
hand mustn’t go over its nearest wall.
2) The player must raise their hand as high as it will go
over the board and let the mace fall. They are not allowed to
get up to get a better view of the board.
Since a Chief can only be killed by a hero or a piece with a mace, as it will be explained later, it’s not recommended to use too many throws and instead take out pieces through confrontations.
CONFRONTATIONS
A pawn can be killed by being bracketed by two other pawns (or a pawn and either a traitor or a Chief), by having a pawn jump over it on its way down the island steps, or by a hero.
Only the swordsman and the dragon can kill each other, although they can be captured (by at least three pawns) and (or) switched out of the board. In an encounter between two heroes, the winner is whoever attacks first. Some variations have the dragon win unless the swordsman has an entourage of at least 1 pawn (what with their rite of passage being a cage fight to the death between a 15yo and a Monstrous Nightmare, you might have guessed that this isn’t true of Berk’s variant), others take into account the amount of kills of the pieces and whichever has more gets the victory.
A longship can be destroyed by two longships (not necessarily boarded) bracketing it, a dragon, a kingship (nnb) meeting it head on or three pawns attacking it on a beach. It can also be commandeered by a swordsman, although it can’t be destroyed until it’s liberated. A kingship without a Chief can be destroyed by being bracketed by two longships (at least one pawn aboard) and met head on by a kingship or a dragon, or attacked by four pawns on a beach. A kingship with a Chief aboard can be destroyed by a longship with at least three pawns aboard, a boarded kingship and a hero.
Just like a dragon may destroy a longship, a swordsman can commandeer one, effectively controlling the traffic of pieces for the Marauders, but also putting itself out of the game until it lets it go.
CHIEFS
Chiefs can be killed by any piece, but, with the exception of the dragon and the swordsman, they must be equipped with a mace to do this. To avoid it being cumbersome during the game, players are allowed to just say that a certain piece has the mace (eg, “The pawn on the left isle has a mace”), but it must be indicated to the other player in some way and this uses up a turn. If a piece is killed while carrying a mace, the player has the option to save one of them, but not both. A Marauder player, who might have to kill two Chiefs (so to speak) and would benefit from having as few pieces as possible to carry out the Siege, will probably choose to save the mace, while a Viking player, who would need at least four surviving pieces besides the Crown to complete a Journey, will probably choose the piece.
The Marauder Chief can be equipped with a mace, which is the only way it can kill another piece and must be reequipped each time it’s used, but allows him to also kill the swordsman (or the dragon, which a player might do as part of a trade agreement) and has no limit to its usage. The Viking Chief can kill any piece as long as it’s on the Viking Island, otherwise, the same limitations as other pieces apply.
THE TRAITOR
The traitor can be controlled by any of the players at any time, for five turns, after which it can only be used by the other player, who may choose to wait to use their own five turns or even to kill the traitor while its under their control, which is the only time the piece can be killed. The traitor piece cannot kill a Chief - its value rests in that it can swap places with any other piece, which is also the only way it can travel to a different island or isle. So, a viable strategy could be to have the traitor approach a Chief, swap it with the mace piece and kill the Chief. If the traitor is left alive and ends up on the same land as the remaining Chief when the other is killed, the game goes to the other player, since the traitor will eventually turn on the Chief as is its nature.
It’s traditional for the winner (however they came to win) to end the game by knocking the traitor over with a mace, since it shows their understanding of a traitor’s volatile and dangerous nature, that despite its usefulness is better off dead. The traitor always dies in the end.
#rtte#Race to the Edge#httyd#How To Train Your Dragon#Maces and Talons#hi let us forget about how I forgot maths the first time around#also chose to give the traitor a bit of a break… effectively giving the players less of one
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ruff and tuff are basically... fred and george, it`s almost unoriginal
Ok so I know there are a looot of differences between these two pair of twins.
Fred and George, we’ve seen them throughout 7 books and 8 movies. We know how awesome and pure and well developed they are. Their relationship with everyone they interact is organic and so well done… They were first and they still did it better. They have so much life and depth and are NOt portrayed as comic relieves, they are characters on their own, their jokes and pranks is how they ARE and it feels natural, they’re NOT comic relieves, they’re actual characters who have a LOT to do in the series and their presence is impactful.
The Twins (Ruff and Tuff) on the other hand are more portrayed as dumb or comedy relieves, yes they do have some backround and their personalities are quite different sometimes, they have good moments of depth, but in reality, in the movies, they are comic relieves, they were created as comic relieves BUT they’re GOOD comic relieves (unlike other comic relieves in movies like *cough* Olaf *cough*) Because as I said above, they DO have character, personalities and backround.
So Ruff and Tuff is a relationship of brother and sister more than a brother and brother relationship so their dinamic is quite different. Also Ruff’s not explored as much as Tuff is, they’re like separated in that aspect, Fred and George are not, but we do have a clear idea of what she’s like, she’s awsome and we DO see her relationship with Tuff explored (tho not so much as we’d like), the show helps in that aspect, but Tuff is still the one who always shines… I really am not sure why but TJ Miller is definitely one huge influence on the character.
I mean, you can argue that many characters who are twins will be similar to Fred and George: They’re pranksters, they’re more intelligent than people give them credit for, they appreciate life and laughs and fun, have a huge heart, etc, etc.
Yes, they are similar to Fred and George but not quite the same. They are unique in their own part, plus they live in totally different times so their resources and history are quite different, but if you put the Twins on a Hogwarts AU, yeah they could be actually the same thing :)
Thanks for asking
#that was interesting#I hope someone reads it lol#ruff and tuff#the twins#fread and george#character analysis#hp#harry potter#httyd#rtte#httyd2#thanks for asking#anon
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