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yzafre · 2 months

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Trying to wrap my head around my thoughts re: 2012 and Rise, and how they hit my brain, and it’s like...

The things I think these two series are missing/needed to improve on are what the other series did really well? Like, each show would be enhanced by borrowing from the other (an impossibility in one direction due to the linear nature of time, but you get me).

And now I'm going to post about it to hopefully trick my brain into thinking I talked to someone about it so that maybe it'll let me think about anything else.

Uhhh putting a read more because this is mostly just a brain-dump ramble to free my mind from the topic-loop and it got. Long.

Okay, exposing my biases ahead of time: while I very much enjoyed both series, I will admit that Rise appeals more to my personal taste. I do also like 2012! I liked it a lot, it’s just that, you know, I’m easily drawn in by cool 2d animation and anime bullshit, and also Rise’s humor matches mine better, which means it's the one I’m more likely to re-watch. However, that doesn't mean I think Rise is perfect.

Also, for the sake of this rant, we’re going to be ignoring the circumstances surrounding production. Yes, yes, we all know the executives specifically asked for Rise to have a much lighter tone, and that it got cut really short, and that affected how things panned out – but I don’t know enough about 12’s production to compare them fairly on that front. So.

MOVING ON FROM THAT.

Let’s start with ROTTMNT. I love Rise, love a good shenanigan, but... can you really deny that it would have been nice to have a more even split between pure shenanigans and more serious episodes? Even just getting closer to 50/50?

Don’t get me wrong, the shenanigans absolutely have their place and actually contribute to what I like about Rise’s writing (which I will talk about in the 12 section), but the overwhelming amount of them really messes with the pace of the show overall, and with the escalation of tension.

Obviously, you can’t have every episode have the spectacle of an episode like, say Many Unhappy Returns, I'm pretty sure animating that shit's expensive, and early on it’s not like they really know what they’re slowly being dragged into, but... post Shadow of Evil, you’d kind of like them to acknowledge the stakes more, right? And even before the turtles themselves know, you’d like the slow build that only the audience is getting to be a bit more consistent, right?

You’d like the weaving together of the plot and character arcs episode-to-episode to just be a bit more well-thought out... wouldn’t you?

And that is what TMNT 12 is good at.

I personally think 12 peaked in season 2 (I was so engaged with that season, the buildup was phenomenal), but throughout the entire series it is obvious just how much effort they are putting into developing these interweaving plots, and it pays off. Every episode is a self-contained story, true, but even from season 1 you can see how even the most one-off episode is putting at least one thing into the Rube Goldberg machine that’s going to go off at the end of the season. It honestly impressed me how they balanced “you can watch any episode on its own because tv has re-runs" and “every episode leads into the next until everything blows up”.

The end of season 2, when the tension they've been ratcheting up inch by inch nearly every episode finally releases, and all the dominoes start falling and danger is coming from every direction? Mwah. Stellar. Like, devastating cliff-hanger of an ending, but also the satisfaction of seeing it all fall apart? It's gripping.

Also, they acknowledge the stakes. 12 is obviously going for a much more serious tone, and covers some heavier topics like revenge, obsession, healing, ect (in a kind of surface level way for young kids, yes, but this is a nickelodeon toy-selling series. Genre and intended audience matters). I may not always agree with the answers they come to, but they are trying! As opposed to Rise where the enemies feel... kind of out-of-sight, out-of-mind, in 12 the Shredder, and occasionally the Kraang, are a constant threat that they are always aware of.

While the setup is different (12!Shredder wants them dead specifically, whereas the Rise boys don’t really know what the Shredder will want other than mass destruction when the armor is complete), you kind of feel like the danger could have maybe been a little more acknowledged in Rise.

And like... the move into season 2 had them getting the Shredder armor "contained", which they used to go so far backwards on stakes which is... I mean, there were other choices they could have made.

You can argue that many shows reset the stakes when you beat the season boss at the end, but... Rise specifically went straight back to "straight shenanigans with little awareness of the outside world", repeating the "occasionally things are happening to build up to the end outside the turtle's awareness" and it's. It's a pacing and escalation, issue, again. And yes, we got some of my favorite episodes out of season 2! Season 2 had some good episodes! But also... I would have liked the stakes to progress just a bit?

When you finally had such a huge shift in the plot, and then suddenly you go ALL the way back down the where you started in stakes and tone it can be a bit... jarring. It's a pacing and escalation issue, again.

Also, if we’re going a bit more abstract, Rise could have had more serious episodes relating to their main theme/focus.

2012 was obviously focusing on their plot, and specifically the history between Splinter and Shredder, and the concepts of revenge and obsession. And it came up a lot! It was threaded through the majority of the episodes. I might not always personally agree with the conclusions they came to, but I can’t deny they treated it with gravitas.

Rise seemed to be focusing on family bonds and family baggage. And it's woven into a lot of the silliness. And there are also some episodes that address it seriously! And they’re GOOD! But, uh – there could definitely have been more. Especially for the Splinter-children relationships.

They went with a very risky play for Splinter and his arc, and while I personally liked the shape of it, I can understand the people who take a very negative interpretation of this Splinter because there were not enough episodes dealing with reconciling his relationship with his kids. They made a point to show that things were strained, made the theme family bonding, and then... didn’t put in enough episodes to finish off their main theme.

Don’t get me wrong, what Rise does have for their characters is very, very good. Again, I’ll be talking about it in the 2012 section. It’s just... the pacing of it all.

So, what I think Rise needed is what 2012 excelled at – pacing and interweaving of the plot, proper escalation of stakes, and time spent highlighting their main theme in more serious episodes.

Now, the other half of the equation: 2012.

I mentioned earlier that 2012 was going for a more serious tone, and that it was focused on the plot. And they did it well! It paid off! I just maybe, personally, think that came at the cost of the character writing.

It’s not that it’s bad. They’ve got a strong sense of character voice for their main cast. It’s just that when you go anywhere beyond that it’s really... average for a kid's cartoon, and when compared to the obvious effort they went to when weaving together the plot it sticks out. Of course, authors are allowed to lean into plot-based narrative over character-based, and this might just be personal taste again, but...

I’m going to put in a reminder that everything in this rant is based on how the writing hit my brain specifically. Different people will experience the same story differently, yes? Yes.

That being said, the character writing for 2012 hit me weird. There were “character episodes” in between the plot ones, yes, but they didn’t feel... connected? If the pacing of the plot in Rise felt weird and disjointed, the character arcs, if I could find them in 12, felt the same way. It’s like they would drop in a really interesting nugget for a character into a single episode, and I’d be excited to see where it went – and then it would either be shoved way in the background from there on out, or dropped completely. It often left me feeling like I’d missed a step going down the stairs, when I expected them to start working on a character arc and they just went back to the status quo. That’s not uncommon for a kids show, but... they put so much more effort into the intricacies of the plot!

What ended up feeling missing was a development of the characters from an internal perspective. That is, hm.

I mentioned earlier that there were narrative benefits to the shenanigan structure of Rise. The first half of this is because it lives and dies by its characters. They can’t depend on an engaging plot to capture your interest long-term, because the plot is only in select episodes, so by god you better be attached to these characters. While part of the humor is, yes, the situations they get into, the other part is the character dynamics – both the friction between them, but also the positive synergy between them. That’s not to say 2012 doesn’t have character interactions – they've got their banter – it's just that it doesn’t have to carry the episode the way it does in Rise.

The other half of the narrative benefits is that more episodes can be motivated by the character’s internal desires, rather than external forces. Stepping outside of TMNT to reference everyone’s favorite cartoon, Avatar, for every, say, Avatar Roku, you’ve gotta have a The Waterbending Scroll.

2012 is largely driven by its plot – which is a good plot! But what felt like, eh, 90% of the time? Everything that’s happening is motivated by what the antagonists are doing – the Kraang/Purple Dragons/Foot are doing this bad thing, or coming after us, and we have to stop them, because we’re the good guys/they’ll kill us if we don’t. Not bad, objectively, it certainly raises stakes! But also, it doesn’t really let us in on, like, the character’s internal world or what they want.

With Rise’s shenanigans...

Origami Tsunami happens because the boys got a taste of fighting and want to chase that high. Shell in a Cell happens because Raph loves wrestling, his brothers seem to like it well enough or otherwise want to hang out/humor him, and Leo is feeding his ego/fighting his insecurities. Repo Mantis is because Donnie and Mikey were hanging out while Donnie collected resources(?), saw something they wanted, and went balls to the walls to acquire it. The Purple Jacket happens because Donnie wanted to experience toxic academia and fashion. I could go on.

My point is Rise leaves more space for the episodes to be internally motivated, and that ends up telling us a lot about their characters! What did they want? How did they specifically go about trying to get it? Did they involve others? Who did they involve? It adds depth to them, even in the silly goofy show!

There is also one specific writing trick Rise uses which I wish could go back in time and be implemented into 2012, and that is: “line played for laughs in one episode” > “oh wait they were serious”.

I’m talking the “my first positive reinforcement from a parent-aged adult. EVER.” to Turtle-dega Nights pipeline. Minotaur Maze to Many Unhappy Returns for Leo. Arguably Pizza Puffs to the series finale for Raph, if you follow me. Reparin’ the Baron to Hidden City’s Most Wanted.

Even in the jokes, the throw-away lines, Rise is exposing what makes the characters tick. And then when it hits, it hits. This is why, while the Rise arcs are kind of incomplete, the writing still feels more consistent to me and I find it easier to see the intended arc they were going for.

And I so so so wish 2012 had that kind of thing, or ANY more focus put on character development, because, not to harp on this again, but they’ll drop in this one really interesting line or action from a character in a single episode focusing on them, then never mention it again or develop on the concept, and it kind of makes me feral because, like -

I want to gather up all these weird little scraps they give about these characters and pin them up conspiracy-board style and go: why didn’t we get a plot line about this? Or this? Did you notice how a lot of the time Raph is pushing for more action against their enemies, he brings up that they’re out there hurting more people? And that could indicate a unique empathy for the victims, which would have been an interesting expansion on the vengeance theme of the showing, looking at justice v vengeance when ti comes to people without the ability to fight back? Leo has a lot of tension between wanting to be a good leader and wanting the freedom to make impulsive choices and chase what he wants, which is interesting when you also look at moments we see with his two role models the sci-fi hero (who is kind of an asshole) and Splinter (who, while wise, has baggage that sometimes affects his decisions), and it feels like somewhere between all that there could have been an expanded storyline that actually resolved that tension between responsibility and personal desire that would have lead to his own version of leadership? What about getting a focus on the few lines Donnie gives about his insecurities/stress re: his scientific abilities/role, rather than dragging him into his extremely bland romantic b-plot? Can we address the weird way Mikey did chemistry magic two or three times but it’s never brought up outside that, or that one line by the anger-persona in his mind explicitly saying he tries to repress his anger because he doesn’t like the way it feels, or, or -

Why do they keep dropping these really interesting inciting incidents for character arcs and then not going anywhere with them I am losing my mind I am shaking the writers why do you keep teasing me like this -

Ahem.

Additionally... well, I mentioned above that Rise has a main theme of family bonds, where... 2012 kind of struggled to convince me of any relationship. Or, no, that sounds harsher than what I really mean.

I also want to clarify that I am not saying I think they dislike or don't care about each other, or any of the extremely negative takes I’ve seen thrown at the 12 characters dynamics. That’s not it at all. It’s just that they all felt... very surface level? Sometimes it felt like the show wanted you to just accept that the characters were close without putting in the work to really show it. And definitely not to explore it in depth. (And I know, I know, I know! It’s a Nick kids show! But! They put so much effort into the plot!)

Again, I think this is affected by the lower usage of internal motivation for episodes. Characters doing things because they want them, then seeing how those different desires interact, gives you a better view of their relationships than just seeing a team work together because they have a common enemy.

Again, it’s not that 2012 never does this. We see glimpses of them playing around – competing to do flips when running the city, watching their tv shows, playing pinball (was it pinball? Or an arcade game?). It’s just that the emphasis on the plot (not an objectively bad thing!) leaves less room for episodes based on them just... doing things together, because they want to. And less room for engaging in personalized interests together, rather than separately, and seeing how that plays out.

I think I’m devolving into senseless rambling at this point, so to sum up:

2012’s emphasis on plot – which it generally excels at! – leaves less room for exploring stories based on internal motivations, which I find necessary for consistent character arcs or relationship development and are the elements Rise kind of lives on when its plot is running thin.

Hopefully none of this is taken as an attack on/dislike for either iteration. I like them both! It’s just they both drive me a little bit crazy with what could have been!

Of course, this is all down to personal taste and interpretation. I am fairly aware of my biases, I think. I am very much attracted to character-driven narratives, and even in plot-based ones I have a tendency to care more about the character implications than the plot itself. There’s a reason Days (the oops all character writing game) is my favorite Kingdom Hearts story!

(I do, also, really, really like anime bullshit, so do with that what you will.)

I am also aware that I binge-watched this series as an adult years after it ended, and that combination of factors may affect my reception. (Admittedly I did that for both series, but). Your experience might be very, very different, but I’m trying to understand the way these two shows are hitting my brain.

Thinking it over also gives me a hypothesis (which other people have probably already figured out) of why certain people are drawn to one series of the other: 2012 probably appeals more to people who are engaged by continuous, interconnected plots and careful pacing in a story, while Rise probably appeals to people who are more engaged by pure character pieces (and anime bullshit).

#maybe if I get this out of my head #my brain will clear and I can finally get back to work on my kh fic #I've got less than 10 chapters left to draft but turtles Will Not Leave Me Alone!#rottmnt #tmnt 2012 #yza talks about a thing #not posting this mean my brain continues to spin in circles as the thoughts are trapped...#but contemplating posting all these opinions is making me queasy...#fuck it post it and immediately walk away #like you do with scary work emails #go straight to bed do not pass go do not collect your anxiety #tmnt

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whynotimtired · 2 years

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"I need some relationship advice."

"Man you Wheeler's and your relationship issues, you already got both the twins falling all over you what else do you possibly need-" Argyle is cut off with an elbow to the stomach and a pointed look from Jonathan.

Mike furrows his brows, "Twins? What are you talking about? What twins?"

"Yeah man, I would tell you but I just remembered that I really shouldn't. Good luck though, or you're welcome I don't know."

What the fuck?

Mike gaped at him, "Are you high?"

"Listen brochacho, all of you and this and the superpowers and the relationship issues are really stressing me out, so what if I gotta mellow out a bit."

He guesses that's fair, but still-

"Twins, you said I have both twins falling all over me, I don't even know anyone who is a twin so how could that be at all possible?"

"I really don't know what to say man, I can't tell you." Argyle sighs and looks forlornly at the pizza van behind Jonathan's head.

Mike hears a clattering and turns towards the porch.

Will comes rushing out of the front door, out of breath, "Hey guys, have you seen El anywhere?"

"She's in the van."

He grins, "Thanks Jonathan." He jogs to the van and knocks three times, and then two, and then three, and then the door swings open, letting him in.

You can hear their laughter from where he's standing.

"Are they...are they getting high?"

"Who knows man, that's their business."

"It's your weed!"

"What they do is not under my control."

Jonathan laughs, "I mean, Mike if you want to stop them then go ahead, but they haven't had their one-on-one sibling bonding time for like a week. They might kick you in the face."

"Kick me in the face?!"

"Yeah it happened to me once man! Little byers has a brutal kick."

"Will kicked you in the face?!"

"I'm pretty sure he cried after though." Jonathan muses.

"It was totally an accident dude, my face should not have been there."

Mike throws his hands up, "Okay can we go back to me now?"

"Do we have to?"

Jonathan rolls his eyes with a little grin, "Sure Mike, what do you need advice on."

"How do you know that you're in love?"

"Woah, brutal question man."

"You... It's like this, falling in love isn't something you do on purpose, it just happens. Sometimes you don't even realize it's happening until you're already head over heels. It feels like, the most natural thing in the world. Loving itself, is easy. Is it easy to you?"

"That didn't answer my question."

"If you write that down and turn it in to Mr. Darwin he'd probably give you an A."

"Is it easy Mike?"

He huffs, "It feels like it's going to choke me. I feel terrible whenever I'm around her but I love her so much and I don't know why Jonathan."

Argyle leans into Jonathan and whispers loudly, "Get him to think about the other one."

"The other one?!"

"Sorry man, didn't think you'd hear me."

"Listen. Maybe the- the conditions of your relationship are what's making you so unhappy."

A beat. Mike scrunches his face up, "What?"

Argyle, wide eyed, "That makes so much sense."

"You love her right?"

"Yeah I just said I do."

Jonathan sighs, "Don't get defensive Mike, im not accusing you of anything."

He looks down, "Okay, sorry."

"It's fine. You love her, but being with her feels bad. And you feel guilty, upset about it."

Yeah, yeah.

He nods.

"Maybe, you don't love her, like that."

"But she's- she's- perfect. Why wouldn't I love her like that?"

"Maybe you just can't."

He feels suddenly out of breath, "Can't?"

Jonathan puts a hand on his shoulder, "Falling in love isn't something you do on purpose."

Mike's eyes go shiny, "But I do love her."

"Platonic love is not less than. It's just different."

"Different?"

"Yeah, like- like you love Lucas right?"

Mike smiles, "Yeah, he's the best."

"That's what I'm talking about! You would do anything for him, you love him so much, but it's not like that."

He scrunches up his face at even the thought, "Right."

"Right, so-"

Joyce pokes her head out the door, "Hey kiddos, hate to interrupt but have you seen the twins anywhere?"

"Yeah mom, they just went on a walk."

"Okay well, once they come back can everyone come in? Dinner is almost ready."

Jonathan smiles at her as she goes in, "Yeah of course."

"Can't wait Mrs. Byers." Argyle drawls.

Once the door closes Jonathan spins around and heads to the van, the other two close behind.

"Your mom said "the twins."" Mike points out.

"Very observant."

"What do you think is for dinner dude?"

Mike rolls his eyes.

"Probably nothing good, we're at a run down apocalypse cabin." Jonathan knocks on the van.

Will's voice bleeds through, muffled by the doors, "Password?"

It brings Mike straight back to the early days of castle byers, his smile going all soft. Feeling all mushy.

"Mom said that dinners almost ready so you guys gotta air out okay?"

Muffled groaning and then the door slides open to two grinning faces.

Will giggles, "That wasn't the password Jonathan."

He smiles, "Yeah well this is Argyle's van, he gets to make password rules."

"I never even thought of that man, I can have a password to my van?"

"Oh! I found my abba tape under your seat Jonathan!" El shoves it in his face, laughing as he pushes her hand away.

"No!"

"Yes!"

"So, you're telling me we could've been listening to Abba that whole time?"

El's face goes serious, "I know you don't like Abba, Jonathan."

Mike didn't even know she liked Abba.

"Oh yeah?"

"Yeah. Will told me."

"Oh did he." Jonathan mock glares at Will, who sheepishly crosses his arms, "I didn't know you were pretending to like them."

"Actually, they're growing on me."

"Really?!" Will and El ask, a little bewildered and excited, respectfully.

"Wait man, for real?"

Jonathan throws his hands up, exasperated. "Why is that so hard to believe?"

Will shrugs, "No offense Jonathan, but you're kind of pretentious."

"You do not usually like "popular" music." El says, doing overly exaggerated quotations with her fingers.

"I would say mainstream-"

"Oh mainstream! He hates mainstream stuff El." Will grins at her and she looks into his eyes very seriously, "I cannot look that up right now but I believe you."

"I'm not sure that mainstream would be in the dictionary anyway-"

"Well why not?"

Mike pushes his way past Jonathan and Argyle so he's front and center, "Okay, who are the twins?!"

Will and El look at Mike, and then back at each other before erupting into giggles, Will stares into his eyes with a grin, "Us, duh."

"Can't believe you couldn't just figure it out man, I mean what other twins do you know?"

Mike whips his head around to look at him, "I didn't know they were twins that's the point Argyle."

"I mean, we're not actually twins. If you want to get technical. I mean you knew that though. You know everything, I mean- about me, you know everything about me. I mean- not everything, just like. Most things, like if I had a twin or not."

Mike gapes at him.

"Okay I mean obviously you didn't know in this particular situation but-" El covers his mouth mid ramble and giggles into his hair, "It's just Mike."

Will's face flushes bright red.

Mike's eyes go wider.

He shakes himself out of it, a little pink himself, "What don't I know about you?"

Will furrows his brows and takes El's hand away, "What?"

"You said "not everything". What don't I know?"

Will looks at Jonathan for a beat and then absolutely loses it.

El, laughing right along with him, trying to use his body to hold her up while he leans heavily against the van, hunched over. Almost taken to one knee.

"What could possibly be this funny?" Mike asks, giggling at Will, trying to catch his eye.

Will takes a deep breath, giggles spilling out still, and makes eye contact with Mike, almost throwing him straight back into hysteria. "N-nothing, it's- it's really nothing."

El whispers something in his ear and Will collapses, immediately breathless from laughter.

"No, no! Get back up! I need to lean on you." She giggles, pulling at him.

"Wait Will, I dont-"

"KIDS! DINNER!"

Will hops up, "Oh thank god I am so hungry."

"Thank god." El echoes.

"COMING MOM!" Jonathan yells at the house.

They all shuffle up the porch and into the house, but Mike pulls Will behind.

"Mike, I swear I could eat a-"

"I just want to clarify that this conversation isn't finished."

Will blinks at him, "Okay."

"And I don't want to kill your buzz or whatever but I don't like that you're keeping stuff from me."

Will looks at his hands, "Trust me Mike, you won't mind this one staying a secret."

"I will- I- I do."

"Maybe- maybe. I mean, it's been going well so far!" Will grins at him, he can't help but grin back. "What has?"

"Hm?"

Mike laughs, "What's been going well so far?"

"Oh, that doesn't matter right now."

"Will-" He's cut off by the boy throwing himself into his arms.

"I said I wasn't going to hug you until you hugged me first but I just now realized that that was so stupid." Will grips him tighter, falling into him further. Mike has to adjust his stance to stay upright, hugging back just as hard.

"I didn't know you were waiting for me." I would've just done it in the first place.

Will sighs out against his neck, "Long time."

Mike's eyes well up with tears, "Yeah, me too."

Will leans back, "I have to go in there, I just remembered Hopper is back."

Mike pulls him in again, "Just one more minute."

"I really am not complaining but we could do it later," His voice drops to a whisper, "We're pretty high."

Mike laughs quietly into his hair, "Yeah I know."

"Sooo, I can't just leave her in there! Jonathan has Argyle so she's singled out right now!" Will starts wiggling in his grasp.

"Okay, I'll let you go. But just so you know, now that you've given me permission I am going to be ALL over you." Mike smiles.

Will gets a bit of distance between them and then leans his face into Mike's, far closer than they've been in months.

His face flushes and he grins bashfully, glancing down at Mike's lips for a second, "Looking forward to it."

Will spins around and walks in, leaving Mike blinking rapidly on the porch.

Oh.

Both twins.

He smiles wide, feeling a little high himself.

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