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#epic the musical meta
mandlien · 3 months
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Me hearing the Circe Saga again and pondering on the topic of what Odysseus is willing to do to return to his wife and son.
We know he is willing to kill an infant, but not to sleep with another woman. Even though he didn’t see any other way to actually save his men.
Later, he will become more taken with the “ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves” idea, but in this moment he is unwilling to do what seems the smartest choice. Why?
I think, in the end, it’s about who he’s willing to betray with his choices. By dropping the baby, he’s not betraying Penelope, but his own morals. By sleeping with Circe, he would be betraying his wife, and that’s something he’s not willing to do.
One thing that I’m curious about is what he would have done if Circe hadn’t decided to be merciful. Because to Odysseus, after what happened with Poseidon, I think it was much more expected that she would be ruthless than kind. “The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible,” says Poseidon, after Odysseus says he is sorry and to please have mercy. He can’t expect that the next god like figure he meets that wants his men dead to be any different, even as he pleads.
I think that, in his mind, by refusing her, he’s also betraying his men for the first time.
In the end, even before the Underworld Saga, Penelope>his crew, especially after they betrayed him in Keep Your Friends Close. At this point, he’s willing to try saving them, but not at the cost of betraying his wife.
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insult-the-glory · 6 months
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Since there's a release date now for the ocean saga (!!!!!) I figured I might as well type out a thought I've been nursing for a couple months now
As much as I love Epic as a piece of art, fundamentally I disagree with Epic's philosophical position as I understand it from what has been released.
The point of Epic, at least as far as I see it, is that Ody is presented with several competing philosophies on how he must act in order to get home, among them being Polites', Eurylochus', and the gods'. Mainly I want to focus on the conflict between Polites' philosophy and the gods' (Eurylochus' as far as I can tell is just "be more cautious"). Polites' philosophy is "whatever we face, we'll be fine if we're leading from the heart...greet the world with open arms" while the gods' advocate a more ruthless approach: Athena tells Ody "Have you forgotten the lessons I taught you? / He's still a threat, until he's dead" and Poseidon's philosophy famously is "Ruthlessness is mercy upon yourself".
Now my fundamental philosophical disagreement with the show is that the text seems to agree with the gods'. Ody's refusal to kill Polyphemus directly causes all his troubles with getting home; Polites' open arms philosophy results in his death; Ody will eventually ask "if became the monster to everyone but us / and made sure we got home again, who would care if we're unjust?"
The thing is though , this isn't even about Ody's responsibility to his crew because he will ultimately fail to bring anyone but himself home! And if the text ends up thematically saying "it is good and right to do whatever's necessary to get what you want, no matter who gets trampled along the way" idk that super won't sit right with me. Now, hopefully the show will end up saying something different—I think Athena's relationship with Telemachus might end up reinterpreting or transforming her philosophy but frankly I don't know enough about what her relationship with Telemachus will be like. Also there are still two songs I believe of which we know nothing. And when we have the whole show I'll be able to properly do a close reading!!
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If I became the Monster...
If I became the monster, and threw that guilt away Would that make us stronger? Would it keep our foes at bay? If I became the monster to everyone but us And made sure we got home again Who would care if we're unjust If I became the
Lyrics from "Monster" from Epic the Musical
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Guys, this is Meta Knight's song... it fits him perfectly!
This scene takes place around the time of Garlude's death...
Due to MK's reputation & everyone's prejudice against him being part demon. Many rumors spread that he ran away from the fight or he had jinxed her... Meta Knight couldn't help but blame himself.
Things have just been getting harder... and he was just getting so tired of losing people... which got him to think of something... something awful...
However, Jecra wouldn't allow it... he had no desire to see Meta Knight sacrificing himself... thankfully, he talked to him before he even got the chance to...
Convo:-
MK: Jec... what if I could save all of us with this
J: Oh no, you don't... I'm not gonna let you destroy yourself for us...
MK: But you all have homes and families to return to... Oh no... Garlude had a daughter, right? And I... Jec I should hav-
J: META KNIGHT! Don't you dare finish that!
MK: But it's my fault Jec... it's the least I can do-
J: DON'T LET THOSE F#CK*NG RUMORS GET TO YOU! IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT YOU HEAR ME!... Meta, please don't do this...
MK: Jecra I just...*starts tearing* I just don't want to lose anyone else... I'm just so tired of Jec- *cries* It just keeps getting harder...
J: I know, Mets... I know... You're okay with me... you're safe with me... We love you so much... Meta, your life matters too! I'll say it as many times as I have to until you believe it... *Pulls him in for a hug
MK: Jec- I don't know what I'd do without you...
Finally, Meta Knight allows himself to cry in Jecra's arms and mourn the death of their friend...
Guess who ends up becoming the monster first... Oh, the irony is so painful... I can't believe I produced this.
Keep reading for more context & lore...
LORE TIME BABY!
Since the betrayal of Yamikage & the disappearance of the Ancients (the only people who had the power to reign him in), the GSA was now on the brink of ruin... Due to the lack of soldiers, everyone was spread out thin. This was when Uther reached his peak madness...
Similar to MK & Garlude... Sir Arthur & a small group (higher-ups who had some sort of moral code left) were sent out on a crusade to find the legendary sword Excalibur. (Which I will get into later...)
But in truth, these were all just "fool's errands" and were just ploys to get those who opposed him to be killed. And with Sir Arthur gone...(presumably dead), no one had free reign of the GSA...
Uther took this as an opportunity to cut Meta Knight's unit in half... putting them in squadrons that would surely use them as death fodder. Meta Knight loved his everyone squadron... he couldn't change the order... so he did something else.
Every time someone from the other half of his unit was dragged out to fight, he'd volunteer to go with them. Sir Uther used his affection for his team against him... (hoping he would die out there...)
(He tried to pull the same trick with Galaxia, and he was supremely pissed that MK came out alive... )
Meta kept sacrificing so much of himself to keep Jecra and his squadron safe... So many of his friends were dying now... and were forced to be scattered about. He couldn't save all of them (he couldn't be in two places at once...); now Garlude and his mentor were gone.
So yeah MK was already in a bad place... Garlude's death was just the cherry on top...
This brings us to this... "what if he became the monster", Meta Knight contemplates whether or not he should allow himself to unleash untapped power... and use his dark magic.
I can't say that much (because of spoilers), but he has a connection with Nightmare that allows him to tap into his pool of power... everyone in the GSA knew of his wings, but only his team (Team Halberd) knew of this connection of with Nightmare.
They knew he was playing with some dangerous forces...
But for those of you who were wondering what Meta Knight meant in the previous chapter in "Had I not tried to play the hero back then…... Perhaps this is my punishment..."
It's referring to this... Meta Knight does eventually go berserk after the death of Jecra! It was to protect the remaining people in his squadron... but it was all for not... they all still ended up dying.
But ultimately it was these powers that allowed Meta Knight to be the only one of the only survivors of the war... though he paid a terrible price because of it.
For those of you who were keeping up with the previous post... it was Jecra (Knuckle Joe's father).
I'm not going to confirm anything just yet, but Jecra was Meta Knight's right-hand man... his rock... his person... <3: Feel free to use this as shipping fodder... (MetaxJecra)
There's gonna be more lore-dumping before the next chapter 2-3 weeks until the next chapter. (which means more Jecra)
I hope you all enjoyed it!
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raindrop-rouge · 1 year
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I’m listening to Epic: The Musical for the MILLIONTH time and got really excited about the use of names in the show - one thing in particular. 
Most of the characters are introduced with their name announced immediately before or after their very first line (with more or less intensity, ranging from a single call of it to POSEIDON POSEIDON POSEIDON POSEIDON--)
And then you get to Penelope’s song (WHAT A SONG WHAT A WOMAN) - and she’s not announced by anyone, nor is she interrupted as she sings to be named (until a bit later). BUT!! it’s not that it doesn’t matter who she is: her theme gives her away, it plays before she begins to sing, and at that point, the audience knows VERY WELL who those notes stand for, who this woman must be. She is virtually the only character in the entire Odyssey deemed not to need a verbal introduction. I love that. I love it so much.
So, I assume that it’s because this is Odysseus’s story, and she’s the centre of his universe, and so it shows her importance (Telemachus isn’t introduced either, for likely similar reasons, but also he is the only kid in the musical so. fairly obvious - and another character never expressly named is Zeus himself, because again, not really needed). But then I wondered - how is Odysseus himself introduced? 
THAT’S RIGHT: in the very first song, when it kicks off, the audience does not know who is singing. I personally assumed it would be Agamemnon, actually, King of the Greeks; when he was named in the song, I thought, odd, but perhaps then this is Menelaus, his brother, the reason everyone is here in the first place? Nope. Named as well. Ah. Neo’s here and told to avenge his father, so Achilles is already gone. Then who? 
And there he says it, for the first time: Penelope. That’s the giveaway! THAT is what tells the audience who this man is - his relationship to his wife. The protagonist of this story is Penelope’s husband, Odysseus. Not the King of Ithaca; not son of Laertes (as would be the traditional way). It’s just such a great way to introduce him (and a good reversal of defining women based on their connections to powerful men...)
Anyway I got REALLY excited about this lol my inbox is open if anyone wants to talk about it and curb my posting, which atm is my only outlet :)))
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avaari · 1 year
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Thinking about this line in “Survive” and how in the end they don’t kill Polyphemus and that’s why their journey takes ten years and only Odysseus makes it home
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fluffypotatey · 1 year
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Why "Full Speed Ahead" is the Best Expositional Song
as some of you may have noticed, i am very in love with Epic: the Musical, and i need y'all to know just how great it is. for one, it's the Odyssey in musical form (2 of my favorite things). for another, the lyrics, the musicality, the choices the writer/composer Jorge rivera-Herrans makes are so clever and witty and ingenious and UGH! so good *chef's kiss*
so i could go on for hours (probably days) explaining why each song is beautifully made.
"The Horse & the Infant" is a wonderful opener, sets up the background context since this story's a sequel to the Iliad (basically, a "previously on Homer's epics").
"Just a Man" JFC WHAT A SONG! IT IS SO GOOD! SO HAUNTING T^T a wonderful set up for Odysseus' character and his arc in the story.
"Warrior of the Mind" sets up the relationship between Odysseus and Athena and what their conflict will be.
but i am not here to go on for days about the musical. i am here to go on for (constrained) hours about one song and why, in my opinion, it is one of the best expositional songs i've ever heard.
OK SO BASICALLY
Trojan War is over. They've won. They can go home! the music itself sounds triumphant and ready for adventure. Odysseus even says how marvelous it is that even when the war was cruel, he never lost a single man.
BUT, then we get the whole point of why their on the ship. "Make it back alive to [their] homeland," and it is sung in a more serious tone. the music also shifts and cuts off to really let you know how important this is. Immediately, you know 2 things: Odysseus never lost a man, their great challenge now is to get to Ithaca.
AND THEN, Odysseus sings how the "problem's not the distance," as in the issue won't be sailing, but really what they might meet on the way. And it is sung by the men who interrupt Odysseus (foreshadowing mayhaps :omg: ) to let the audience know that the real obstacle is "what lies inbetween" Troy and Ithaca.
AND THAT'S JUST THE FIRST PART!!!! Already, the audience are given 3 facts: Odysseus and his men cannot wait to go home, Odysseus was successful in not losing a soldier in Troy, trouble lies ahead. Due to well placed tone shifts and musical chords that go from triumphant to foreboding, we get clued in that there's a strong possibility not everyone will make back alive.
Now on to the characters (yeah, we ain't done :3 we are far from done). See, this song does not just set up what kind of story we will be getting, it also introduces you to the characters that will be sailing with Odysseus on this journey. However, these characters are so much more than companions to our dear friend Ody, but we'll touch on that later.
EURYLOCHUS: how he's introduced is just *chefskiss* because he repeats Odysseus's melody, but his lyrics talk about the new issues they are facing (no food). There is loyalty and deference as he speaks to Odysseus (and you feel that because he sings Odysseus's melody), but already, we see those cracks for him to doubt and question his captain. He's unsure where they'd find the food, he's worried about the size of their men since it's a lot of people to look after. And though Odysseus answers him by essentially telling him to observe where the "birds fly" off to, Eurylochus will continue to be doubtful about everything (their food supply, who to trust, etc.)
POLITES: [Baby boy] is introduced with a fucking key change into a major key. How his lyrics are sung so hopeful (note that he's the one to shift the tone and melody of the song, demonstrating just how important he is to Odysseus/the story), and how he's the one to find the island. He's the one who assumes that people might reside there and they could talk to them. Already, we learn how optimistic he is as well as Odysseus's relationship with him is more casual than it was to Eurylochus since he answers back to Polites with his name in the fondest melody ever T^T
AND FINALLY, why are these characters more than just companions to Odysseus? It is because they're a literal personification of Odysseus's internal war with mercy and ruthlessness. The OG heart vs. mind!
I will explain.
Eurylochus is Odysseus's remnant of the Trojan War since what they would do while at Troy to get food and survive was raid villages, be brutal, fight fire with fire. The mindset of the war has not left him, nor has it left Odysseus because Eurylochus is that part of Odysseus that has not shook off the old habit of ruthlessness. It does not help that the last act Odysseus made in Troy was kill Hector's infant child soooooooo....
Polites is the more merciful side of Odysseus. The side that wishes to approach things (with Open Arms) more diplomatically and peacefully rather than with force. We even see this side pop out during "The Horse and the Infant" when he is trying to find other options that would spare Astyanax from the fate the gods are pushing on both him and the child.
By the end of the Trojan War, Odysseus is tired of it. This war was 10 years long. He wishes to go home to his tiny island and kingdom and reunite with his family. He is done with war. However, despite leaving troy and desiring to escape the horrors he's seen, Odysseus will find himself not only in conflict with the monsters that lie between him and Ithaca, but the conflict of his wartorn-self and his merciful one.
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and that, my friends, is why i love this song so much. everything about it is just so carefully chosen in the best way, and i love it.
go listen to Epic: the Musical
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incorrect-web-novels · 11 months
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Anyway, I’m back from the war (preparing refs for ArtFight), so here are my TGCF and Epic: the Musical thoughts: 
[MAJOR TGCF NOVEL SPOILERS]
Xie Lian’s story is pretty similar to Odysseus’s imo
“The blood on your hands / Is something you won’t lose / all you can choose is whose” (The Horse and the Infant) - this entire plot point is pretty much the “two people and one cup of water.” Just like Odysseus must kill the son of Hector, Xie Lian can’t deal with the war and provide war to Yong’an, and he chooses to prioritize Xianle/the people under him 
“If I became the monster…” is a different reason for blackening - Odysseus wants to protect his crew and family while Xie Lian isn’t protecting anyone at this point - but that song feels MADE for him tbh. The point where Odysseus repeats, “Oh, Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves,” (a point made by Poseidon), where he’s repeating Poseidon’s logic of not showing mercy compared with Xie Lian believing White No-Face/Bai Wuxiang’s philosophy after those infected by the Human Face Disease killed him over and over again
The “Monster” clip could also work for Jun Wu / Crown Prince of Wuyong (even better than for Xie Lian because he was still trying to save the people of Wuyong by sacrificing lives while Xie Lian didn’t really make an active decision to harm anyone until he wanted to release the Human Face Disease, which, again, wasn’t to protect others), but I don’t remember enough to make more of an argument / animatic
Mu Qing and Eurylochus are pretty different yet similar as well - they’re both willing to use “unscrupulous” methods and leave behind others - albeit Eurylochus is talking about leaving their men to stay as pigs on Circe’s Island, I believe, while Mu Qing is not really as cruel or selfish as he’s portrayed; he was prepared to sacrifice himself to save Xie Lian and Feng Xin at the end. However, like, Eurylochus, he’s “not as moral” as Xie Lian and Feng Xin (Odysseus and Polities in Eurylochus’s case) and leaves Xie Lian and Feng Xin during their exile. 
Idk if Mu Qing would confront Xie Lian the way Eurylochus confronts Odysseus in Mutiny though. He was weirdly excited about Xie Lian maybe killing someone (someone mentioned it a while ago; I don’t remember exactly) and seemed to want Xie Lian to be less “perfect.” Plus, Eurylochus is confronting Odysseus about running away from the sea monster Scylla, which I don’t see Mu Qing condemning. HOWEVER, Eurylochus’s doubt in Odysseus's leadership and ability to keep the crew alive is something I could definitely see in Mu Qing (source: just trust me, bro)
(To be honest, I don’t really get Eurylochus’s character that much - he’s upset Odysseus chose to run from Scylla, but he was all for leaving their men to Circe? - but those albums aren’t fully out yet, so it may make more sense later)
I refuse to believe Feng Xin would work as Polities though. It makes sense in all senses of morality, character function, and plot, but Feng Xin would not sing “Open Arms.” I refuse to believe it. 
Pei Ming has the same vibes as Hermes (“Wouldn’t You Like” and “Dangerous”) actually. I don’t have any clear reasoning, but it makes sense to me, yanno?
Speaking of which, while Jun Wu has similar vibes and ideologies to Zeus (“it is the will of the gods”) and Poseidon, if I had to cast anyone as Poseidon, it would HAVE to be Shi Wudu. 
“His title of ‘Water Tyrant was earned due to him capsizing any ship that did not give him offerings” (TGCF Wiki; Book 1, Ch.13) and “When a god comes down and makes a fleet drown, is he scared that he’s doing something wrong? Or does he keep us in check, so we must respect him, and now no one dares to piss him off?” (Monster)
“Shi Wudu considers death better than experiencing or watching prolonged suffering and pain” (TGCF Wiki; Book 3, Ch.124) and “I mean, you totally could have avoided this / Had you just killed my son” (Ruthlessness)
There’s probably more to say, but it’s ~5 am. I was prepared to sleep, like, 3 hours ago. If there are mistakes, no there aren't
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epicblenderartiste · 5 months
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So a few months ago, while working on my animatic with the dolls for “Remember Them” I was doing my best to keep things upbeat despite the increasing drama of the saga. I had a strange daydream about this scene.. where Polites is picked up by Eurylochus and moved downstage a bit.
Polites, (or sort of his actor, who is not exactly Steven Dookie, depicted above in purple) being a dude who is six feet tall and unused to being picked up, is not totally comfortable with the idea, initially.
“Don’t drop me!” He shouts at Eurylochus, (who is not exactly Armando Julián, shown above in orange) grabbing him around the shoulders.
To which Eurylochus responds; “Quit squirming, you’re supposed to be dead!”
Meanwhile Odysseus (who is also not exactly Jorge Rivera-Herrans, depicted in white) is just cracking up laughing so hard he can hardly stand up.
The nice thing about working in 3D and constantly improving, is that I can provide a “redraw” of the scene with my new models:
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Turns out Armando and thus Eurylochus is even taller than I’d originally calculated, so Polites is quite significantly high off the ground.
Nice to share something with Odysseus full size, though Tinysseus is a ton of fun.
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mintygreenaqua · 3 months
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Hello Neighbor ⚔️Dark Maritza🌙 Edit
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mydnyteraven · 1 year
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Polites: Don’t drop me!!
Eurylochus: You’re supposed to be dead! Hold still!
Odysseus: (Can barely stand for laughing)
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hell-raven · 9 months
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i just make "hell raven music", you know?
for instance, a lot of paige tracks have elements of breakcore, but i cant say it with my whole chest that it really is true breakcore... i feel like i dont exactly belong in that scene either, im only a silly little rookie who just combines a bunch of stuff and puts it out there
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a-flickering-soul · 2 years
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girlie, why are you so angry....
Hey, thanks for sending in an ask! I really do think Rabbit is specifically a really interesting character to me personally specifically due to the way she subverts the revenge fantasy character. I really love revenge fantasy characters (specifically queer revenge narratives, which I'm sure if you were here circa winter/spring 2021 you would remember), and when I initially read Red Core (or what's published of it now, anyways), I was both delighted and confused because?? Rabbit has pretty much all the components of a queer revenge fantasy character but?? There is no revenge to speak of??
To elaborate, Rabbit is a very interesting character because her backstory is elaborate on the scale of "oh you're someone's special little OC and everything happens to you because your author loves you so so so so much and also you're a reflection of your author" (I say this lovingly because I do the same thing). Very briefly, she was forcibly closeted by her father/creator, physically hurt by him, and told to drop the subject of her gender and gender presentation or she'll be disassembled (if not in as many words). Despite this, she loves her father, and out of all of her siblings she is the only one known to actively still mourn him and honor his memory. More than a century later, old blueprints were found by the descendant of her creator confirming what Rabbit had been barred from saying all along--that she sure was a girl! And deserved to be seen as such! And--the rest of the details we don't know yet, only that she was able to transition and be respected and loved in truth.
I say Rabbit is a subverted revenge fantasy character purely because she has no desire for revenge, despite the abuse she underwent and the lack of...not so much closure, but apologies and acknowledgement that she was hurt, and she was made to be ashamed and silenced, and reassurance that none of it was her fault. Initially, (taking Red Core as a complete work) I was left a little nonplussed at the lack of rage and anger and hurt I saw on Rabbit's end. As a known revenge fantasy enjoyer, I really wanted to see her have that realization that she was allowed to be angry and hurt and that she did get hurt by someone she trusted implicitly. But the more I thought about it, and then about Rabbit as a whole, the songs she creates and the persona she puts on onstage, the more I realized she doesn't need a revenge arc and in fact she doesn't want one either!
One of my favorite pieces of character analysis when it comes to Rabbit is that she saw the century of enforced silence and closeting and misgendering and decided to let it go. She has no reason to want closure from another person when she found it herself. She took her flaws, the damage done to her system, her malfunctions, and built herself around those imperfections. Her stutter after Peter Walter I ripped her jaw off, her core power fluctuations after it was cracked and stolen, her own identity as a trans woman--all of these things are core parts of who she is now. They appear in her songs, her stage presence, in everything she does. And she is lighter for it. She chose to put down the weight of the past 118 years and chose herself instead. She chose to make the errors that deemed her faulty core parts of her personality. She chose to be silly, and weird, and dumb, and to make other people laugh. She subverts the queer revenge fantasy trope in choosing internal closure, rather than external, in a way that feels not only satisfying narratively, but character-wise as well.
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I don't wanna give any spoilers to the story, but this describes Meta Knight and Kirby's memory reveal, or as I like to call it, the " true reunion"... it hits the emotional theme perfectly.
This is a snippet from Epic the Musical. Written by Jorge Rivera-Herran, but still in progress. Epic tells the story of Odysseus where he makes his way home after the Trojan War.
I highly recommend you listen to some of the pieces he's managed to get out; the soundtracks are incredible. (on YouTube)
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Epic: The Musical - The Troy Saga
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Epic: The Musical - The Cyclops Saga 
And don't worry, I'm still writing the next chapter... hopefully it'll come out this week... fingers crossed.
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2x01 music analysis
Hi, me again. I wanted to take the time to appreciate the score in the one armony scene we got the other day, because it’s awesome. 
So, when rewatching the phone scene, I thought I noticed something familiar about the music. I decided to go back to the first kiss, and what do you know: there were similarities. While the key is definitely different, there is no mistaking what sounds like a familiar motif where the notes are going back and forth. The biggest changes are that while there are a few different notes used in the kissing scene, there are only two in this newer one (and I forgot what this is called; I’m sometimes ashamed to tell people I’m a music minor), until near the end. Sometimes, simplicity is best. 
The other difference is the tone. With the kiss, it’s slow and searching, like what Thony and arman are doing with their feelings. However, with this phone call, the pace is picked up with the help of percussion, bongos, if I’m not mistaken. Though it’s not necessarily a positive situation, it’s almost hopeful-sounding, and epic. They may be separated at the moment, but their connection is stronger than ever. That little bit of bongo in the background is reflective of what may come in their relationship this season, and I can’t wait to see it play out.
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trash-city · 1 year
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Made this tribute to Meta Knight about a year ago mid summer. Not anything special, just felt like making a little music video tribute for my little squish. 💙
⚠️MUSIC AND PICTURES ARE NOT MINE!! ALL CREDIT GOES TO THE ORIGINAL ARTISTS!! THIS WAS MADE FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY, NO COPYRIGHT INTENDED!!⚠️
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initial-lime · 5 months
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Ok ok so. Hear me OUT.
The magnus archives as a musical, plot and all is the same but y’know epic soundtrack and vocals (Jonny we know you can sing don’t hide from us)
Except the only character who’s self aware/meta about the singing is Melanie
She comes in to give a statement and is like “THREE PEOPLE HAVE SUNG TO ME WHERE THE FUCK IS THAT MUSIC COMING FROM IM GOING TO STAB EVERYONE HERE.”
She obviously does a couple songs also
PLUS!! Jon’s s5 smiting is him having a sing-off with the other avatars
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