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nintendont2502 · 2 years

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"Your choices don't matter" Vs "It's kill or be killed"

Deltarune Chapter 1 + 2 spoilers below (Including Snowgrave)

I can't stop comparing "your choices don't matter" from Deltarune and "in this world, it's kill or be killed" from Undertale, and I haven't seen anyone else mention this so here I go

Flowey (the first character you meet) attempts to convince you that your only option in 'this world' is to kill, a fact the game proves as wrong over and over and over as you progress - hell, the second character you meet (Toriel) emphasises the fact that there is other options, that you can do more than just kill or die. Flowey's belief is the polar opposite of the game's tagline - "The friendly RPG where nobody has to die!"

Deltarune Chapter One does a suspiciously similar thing - one of the first characters you meet (and the first character new to Deltarune) almost immediately says "If you haven't gotten it by now... Your choices don't matter." And yet again, this statement is contradicted by another character soon after - Ralsei, who says that if you don't try (choose) to get by without fighting, "You may not... find the result favourable." Ralsei seems to know way more than he should (which is a whole other post), so this dialogue seems important. Basically, Ralsei believes if we don't make the right choices, we won't get the right ending.

Even the game itself disproves Susie's "Your choices don't matter." - as early as Chapter One, the choices you make effect the world in some way. If you fight your way through the Dark World, you're forced to flee soon after beating King, because those in the Dark World want to help him - but if you spare every enemy, they come to help you instead. This also means you lose the chance to say goodbye to everyone before leaving the Dark World - a whole segment of gameplay changed because of a choice you made.

This is all the more apparent in Chapter Two, the first chapter to have an alternate route that differs significantly - Snowgrave. The story itself is changed in a major way by your choice to follow this route; Noelle's mental health suffers, Spamton takes over Queen's castle, and Berdly is (potentially) dead. Even in the normal route, events can change depending on your choices - Berdly can escape the wire in the final Queen fight with no damage, or he can break his wing, you can get support from all your recruits or from none of them. These may not seem like major changes compared to the multiple different endings of Undertale, but remember - this is only two chapters out of seven. The story is only at the beginning, and your choice's impact on the story seems to be growing stronger with each chapter.

The last thought I have about this is about Susie's dialogue at the start of the game: "Your choices don't matter." Technically, she's right. As far as she knows, she's talking to Kris, and as the game has proven time and time again, Kris' choices don't matter. No matter how many times they tear their soul out, eventually they'll return it, and we'll regain control. But Ralsei, on the other hand, seems meta-aware (to what extent, it's unsure). When he implies our choices matter, he could be right.

In Deltarune, Kris' choices don't matter, but ours do.

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lunar-bog · 2 years

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something else I posted to reddit

#deltarune #kris dreemurr #ralsei #deltarune chapter 1 spoilers #meme #shitposting

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the-irreverend · 6 months

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The fact that they decided to name MatPat's character Ness just makes this movie ten times better.

P.S. Happy 5th anniversary Deltarune!

#fnaf #fnaf movie #deltarune #five nights at freddy's #fnaf spoilers #utdr #matpat #deltarune anniversary #rouxls kaard #toby fox #game theory #deltarune chapter 1 #deltarune meme #fnaf memes #matthew patrick

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eksvee15 · 7 months

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MORE PROOF THAT MEGALOVANIA IS THE PLAYER'S THEME

THANKS TO DELTARUNE AND SUSIE FOR PROVING US RIGHT ONCE AGAIN!

So we all have this constant argument of whether MEGALOVANIA is Sans' fight theme or the Player's (it's not Chara's. Stop) fight theme. Well, I believe Deltarune's use of the soundtracks solved that issue for us.

There is a firm belief that in Undertale, and by logic Deltarune, the theme heard is the theme of who initiates the battle. Undyne starts the battle against us, both times we hear her theme - Spears of Justice and Battle Against A True Hero. Flowey ALWAYS starts the battle, so we hear his themes - Your Best Nightmare and Finale, also counts for Hopes and Dreams given he and Asriel are one and the same. And it's pretty evident that whoever has the first turn DOES NOT ACTUALLY MATTER, it is misleading and is canonically not actually relevant - Undyne herself specifies she's letting us have the first turn, in any fight, she's fair, and ALLOWS US the first turn. Sans gets the first turn to catch us off guard, which is what he does during the ENTIRE fight, ATK 1 DEF 1 yet takes multiple attacks to be defeated and will obliterate your health bar, suddenly has laser weapons, dodges, can manipulate space and gravity, teleport, stops time, his entire character is "surprise bitch", no wonder he gets that first turn - heck on the third turn he won't even finish his "beautiful day" speech and start attacking MID SENTENCE

There is, aside from Sans, one other occasion where the Player initiates the battle - that being Monster Kid. Yet MEGALOVANIA doesn't play there, instead, we hear the OST "In My Way" which is ONLY played against Monster Kid and Flowey in No Mercy. But I believe it's intentional, think of your first Genocide playthrough - you still kind of feel iffy, like it's wrong. It's not much of a challenge as it is a chore at this point. You just killed Papyrus. You just killed Toriel. Two people that have shown love, care, and so much genuine friendship to you, it feels awful. You're a danger, but not yet, a megalomaniac. (Side note, I think Etika's playthrough of No Mercy shows us how LOVE affects the actual player, because killing Toriel is a pain, killing Papyrus feels absolutely awful, but then when you get through Undyne the Undying? Etika celebrated beating her, then stopped and said "Wait no, why am I celebrating, I just killed her". THIS. LV affects us and how we view the Undertale characters, from being friends and caring about them, to being a challenge to overcome in the end. And not a lot of people realise that fact)

Now that I've established all this, where does Deltarune come into play? Well, specifically in Chapter 1, we fight Lancer a number of times. And he has that memorable bouncy theme when you fight him, Vs. Lancer. We all know that theme. However there is ONE moment where we DON'T hear Vs. Lancer DESPITE facing Lancer in battle.

The Susie V Lancer battle in the Card Castle's prison.

There, Susie alone engages battle against Lancer. And we know she engages because Lancer doesn't want to fight her, heck he even avoids to attack her at some point. The battle engaged is ENTIRELY Susie's intentions to put Lancer in his place. And the theme that plays, is Vs. Susie. Because SHE engaged the battle. So it's not Susie against Lancer, it's Lancer against Susie, despite US controling Susie. Just like it's Sans against us, despite us being in control.

This is proof. Proof that we hear the theme of who engages in a battle. You could also take as back up proof the Spamton NEO fight in Snowgrave, because he has every reason to engage against Kris - they're threatening everything Spamton COULD have, so of COURSE Spamton engages, furthermore because Kris goes from puppeted to puppeteer in his eyes. Sans never engages in battle against us. We engage against him. Because we're trying to get it over with.

MEGALOVANIA is most definitely the player's theme in late No Mercy run, and we know this thanks to Susie evolving the opposite way in Ch1 that we do in No Mercy.

Thank you for reading!!

#undertale #deltarune #undertale theory #deltarune theory #deltarune spoilers #undertale spoilers #sans #megalovania #susie #lancer #vs susie #vs lancer #theory #undertale genocide #deltarune chapter 1 #deltarune chapter 2 #undertale player #monster kid

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dreemurrsightings · 8 months

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I've been watching adventure time and got inspired

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notshuttingup · 4 months

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i KNOW i’m probably not the first person to make this connection BUT idc i just thought of it.

SO there’s going to be 7 chapters for deltarune, right? and there have been secret bosses for BOTH, with spamton having the yellow soul gimmick. there’s SEVEN souls in undertale. each chapter is probably going to have a mini boss with a different soul gimmick. jevil didn’t have one because his was just the red soul.

the human souls all died in a certain order (from memory im pretty sure it’s cyan, orange, blue, purple, green, yellow, and then red is last because that’s us/frisk) and deltarune seems to be going BACKWARDS. the third chapter will probably have the secret boss use the green soul gimmick, which was undynes shield and arrow thing. which is very interesting actually…with toriel having called the police at the end of the second chapter, undyne DOES have a likelihood of showing up in the dark world…unless napstablook shows up instead (a very funny twist lol).

ANYWAY. that’s all i got. i just had this click in my head.

#undertale #deltarune #deltarune chapter 1 #deltarune chapter 2 #deltarune spoilers #idk how to tag things #theory #i guess #deltarune theory #i guess????#ooo eee oooo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang

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waterberry-strawmelon · 4 months

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finally got around to playing Deltarune, and if I didn’t know Beth May isn’t into video games, I’d be CERTAIN Scary Marlowe was inspired by Susie Deltarune

#Deltarune #dungeons and daddies #dndads #dungeons and dads #undertale #susie deltarune #i haven’t finished Chapter 1 yet so no spoilers in the tags/reblogs/replies please!#mine

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the-1-bigshot · 1 year

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Was doing something with the sweepstakes sprites and decided to have a go drawing these guys now

#deltarune #deltarune weather #deltarune chapter 3 spoilers #deltarune chapter 3 #the 1 art

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kiki-gorse · 9 months

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Ken Crack Theory

Ok so this has probably already been said but I just have to get this out of my head

I was thinking about how ken displays human like emotions before we see anything like that from barbie or really anyone else. I imaged that the reason was that someone was playing with him in the real world just like with barbie.

But then I realised, we KNOW who is playing with Ken

It's Ryan Gosling!!

We know how he thinks about Ken from all the interviews, especially this one

Talking about his two daughter's ken "Do you know where I found Ken, Jimmy? Facedown in the mud next to a squished lemon," Gosling recalled. "I texted [the photo] to Greta and I said, 'I shall be your Ken, for his story must be told.' "

This is the shit that happens after you watch barbie for the third time in less than two weeks

#it is also 1 am right now.......#this is my favourite 4th wall break since deltarune chapter 2 #ken barbie #ryan gosling #barbie #barbie movie #barbie movie spoilers

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maxladcomics · 2 years

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I’m calling it that Papyrus is in here

#screenshots #screenshot #deltarune #spoilers #probably #if chapter 3 comes in at the same pace #it'll be out next year #then we'll find out #but toby will probably dunk on us #and have papyrus just appear in 1 scene #for 1 small moment #where we don't learn anything #or even worse #he's just talking over a phone #'SORRY I'M AWAY RIGHT NOW BUT YOU CAN LEAVE A MESSAGE!!!!"#If I expect the worst I won't be disappointed #//*I LIE I'D BE DISAPPOINTED

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greenscreen-dress · 4 months

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Hi sorry for briefly getting possessed by the spirit of Rouxls Kaard of the Deltarune variety & putting a silly guy all over everyone's dashes. It Will happen again :D

#I've been replaying Deltarune recently. streaming it to discord & doing silly voices for Oca Waffles Dragonslayer #my good friend who lets me ramble about the games and the soundtrack for three hours every Tuesday-ish #and it's genuinely been one of the highlights of the past few months... Hi Oca btw ^^#anyway we just finished chapter 1 & they're rightfully obsessed w rouxls (as i predicted wheeeee)#but unfortunately his tags are packed with DR CH2 spoilers = i can't just let them frolic in the un-curated fanart fields #so i'm going through & reblogging a bunch of stuff for them myself!#& in the process reminded myself how much i also love the goopy bloo guy :3 #need to doodle the delta-dudes someday soon i think ^^#ANYWAY #ut/dr #rouxls kaard dr #eMe_irl #eMerambles

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snowysdarkworld · 11 months

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Sometimes I think about how deeply and unreasonably upset I was the first time I played Deltarune because my favourite blood type wasn't an option on the questionnaire. (It's O-type, by the way. I just think it's cool.)

No, I did not decide this when presented with the question. I had decided my favourite blood type years prior to the game's release.

You do not understand the betrayal I felt when presented with an extremely odd question, already having an answer, and it isn't even an option.

#blood mention #deltarune spoilers #deltarune #deltarune chapter 1 #snowy speaks #toby fox

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ariadnesweb · 2 years

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Kris, since before they mey Susie: Oh My God, the new girl is so cool, i can't believe she 'threatened' me after class. ^ _ ^

Susie, since before chapter 1: I was TRYING TO THREATEN YOU, you MORBID LITTLE FREAK. Want me to do it AGAIN?

#deltarune #deltarune spoilers #soilai's labyrinth #these two have very different images of each other coming to chapter 1 #i think i know what kris told susie that made her stop #'i know'#(kris that's so sad your bully is worried avout your mental health)#(but she's bullying you into making sense because she's not used to THAT)#susie has something to apologize for #and they both NEED to learn how to talk properly #intimidation

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eksvee15 · 1 year

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EUREKA, UTDR THEORISTS.

I have been working on a theory regarding all of our repetitive smiles. All the weird smiles we don't know the meaning of in Undertale and Deltarune? That theory attempts to solve this mystery.

I call this theory, the Cheshire Smiles Theory, or the Consequences Theory. Bear with me on this one because it'll be a wild [Ride Around Town].

Disclaimer, this theory bases itself off the "Chara is the consequence, not the villain" theory, the "Kris hates us" theory, the overpopular "MysteryMan is Gaster's sprite" theory and the whole shtick of the secret bosses seeking out freedom. This theory also bases itself around the concept of Consequences a LOT. If you don't believe/like any of those theories, read at your own risks and don't get angry at me. I warned.

What is a cheshire cat's smile?

Smiling like a cheshire cat, as defined by google, goes as follows : "The Chesire Cat grin is an expression made by The Trickster who's up to something, and 'something' never bodes well for the person they are smiling at. Usually, it involves their total humiliation - occasionally it involves mortal danger."

Alternatively, a cheshire cat smile can be compared to the very literal meaning of it : The smile found on the enigmatic Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland. The peculiar traits we'll focus on here will be the enigmatic smiles behind which he hides, as well as its ability to disappear and appear at any time.

In Undertale and Deltarune, however, smiles are relatively common. Happy smiles like Papyrus and Undyne's, embarassed smiles like Alphys', fake smiles like Rouxls Kaard's, hopeful smiles like Asgore's and Asriel's, evil smiles like KING's and somewhat Queen's? But most notably Flowey (the absolute king of evil and fake smiles here). This leaves a type of smile : The type of smile found on Chara, Spamton, Jevil, Sans to an extent, MysteryMan/Gaster, Spamton NEO, Kris in the Ch1 ending, and the TV's smile in the Ch2 ending. Those, are which I'll refer to as cheshire smiles, and I believe they come from a specific cause : Consequences. Those smiles that seem to appear and disappear when we least expect it? They're all thanks to the consequences of actions. Ours, theirs, actions overall. And I'm going to explain why.

Undertale's Cheshire smiles

The most obvious cheshire smile I think about here is Chara's. Chara, the demon that comes when you call its name. You only see their smile upon completing either a No Mercy run, or a Post NoMercy Pacifist run. Chara is the literal embodiment of the consequences of our actions, here to delete our world regardless of our choice after a No Mercy run, here to remind us of our actions if we try a Pacifist afterwards. Chara is there. Chara remembers. Chara reminds. Chara is the consequence we deserve. And their smile is engraved in our game, as a consequence of making the underground go empty. And it will be there every single time.

Chara here is the whole basis of why this theory exists. A smile that we don't expect, a smile that randomly appears, and a smile motivated by the consequences of our actions. The perfect place to start. Chara is going to be our standart for what a Cheshire smile means in Undertale and Deltarune alike.

Our next candidate in Undertale will be Sans. Although Sans doesn't constantly seem to fit the description of cheshire smile, he is actually one of those that fits the BEST, both based on Cheshire Cat standarts and Chara standarts. He appears and disappears at will, has an unforgettable smile, is a literal judge, is silly and lazy (like a cat) but also, the Sans fight is the most memorable consequence of doing the No Mercy run. Sans' true smile, different from his smile in the textbox, only appears in the ending of a run most of the time, be it in the True Pacifist ending, or the No Mercy ending, we will be faced with that smile, possibly for dozens of times over. I don't count Papyrus, because Papyrus' smile is always innocent, happy, cheerful, confident. Sans' smile never shows emotion, he's a pokerface. Yes, I know, he appears shocked when we hit him but come on. This doesn't disprove it. Sans is peculiar also in the sense that he is very much depressed. Be it through the HP is Hope theory, or just by Undertale lore standarts, it's obvious Sans is depressed and his smile isn't there for himself. Which WOULD qualify him as a fake smiler if the whole rest of the explanation didn't matter, and if the Sans lore wasn't as complicated as it is. It's obvious something happened to make Sans stay like this, he's not just keeping it up for the image. We've yet to discover why, though.

The last member of this list will be MysteryMan/Gaster. I know he's relevant in both games, but his first real appearance is in Undertale plus his lore is in Undertale, so I'll put him there. Gaster is similar to Sans in his cheshire traits, in the sense that he is incredibly mysterious, basically can disappear at will, and his smile seems frozen on his face. A trait also similar to Cheshire Cat is that he doesn't seem real despite being in front of us. However, Gaster has no relevant appearance in the game for us, why would his smile be cheshire if there's none of our consequences? Well that's it, the consequences aren't OURS. They're HIS. His smile is frozen like this, frozen through time and space, because his ambition caused him to fall into his own creation. He was his own downfall, and as a consequence, he is stuck like this. Once again, a smile caused in consequences.

Notes

One could argue OMEGA Flowey's smile is a cheshire one, given the entire embodiment of consequence that he is. However, that's the only trait he has, a consequence that's not even caused. It's a decision he takes, the only consequence is that he looks like that after taking the souls, nothing more. OMEGA Flowey, much like Flowey, has a smile stuck in the Evil Smiles cathegory.

Mad Dummy and Mad MewMew don't count here, as their smiles are either malicious or, in No Mercy, genuine happiness. While the latter comes from a consequence, it isn't nearly relevant enough to be cheshire, and has no implication aside from "I finally became myself".

Deltarune's Cheshire smiles

With the Undertale part out of the way, time for the big bit of this theory : Deltarune. And oh boy do I have a lot to talk to. Bear in mind, Chara's smile is the standart Cheshire smile portrayed by Toby Fox.

Our first contestant here will be Kris. Kris? But they never smile!. . . They do, once to our knowledge. In the Chapter 1 ending, Kris flashes a menacing, yet.. Familiar smile to us. I believe this smile is the consequence of us, the soul, possessing them and making them do all of this, and their smile here as well as their actions is their way to fight back. It's to send a message to us, that consequences are coming. This smile is VERY reminiscent of Chara's own smile, which shows up at the end of the run and reminds us that our actions WILL have consequences. This is exactly Kris' message here, I believe. Small note here, this will be the one smile that barely doesn't fall out of cheshire. It's WAY on the fronteer, but given how relevant Kris' smile is in this scene, it barely makes it in.

Next up is Jevil, our good ole' jester of the deck himself. Jevil is probably the character that smiles the most in Deltarune, as he never gives it up. Even the Devilsknife is smiling, to quote him, and he IS the Devilsknife. Jevil has the silliness, and the ability to disappear to reappear, while also having the dangerousness and most of all - being optional. The consequences here, again and much like with Gaster, don't come from us. Seam (a smiling cat..how peculiar and conveinient.), Jevil's friend, gives us insight and story on Jevil. Evidently, Jevil found himself behind bars due to his false belief of being free to do anything, and going rogue because of it. Jevil broke, and his insanity lead him to where he is today as a consequence. Jevil is stuck smiling in his little freedom in the end.

We've been to one end of the freedom scale, let's go to the other end : Spamton G. Spamton. This guy has probably the biggest amount of consequence events in the entire Deltarune yet. He was a salesman, got a phonecall and as consequence his smile was everywhere, the phonecalls left so he fell to the dumpster and now he's just a smiler puppet craving ..something. The biggest reason I bring him to the table is because HE IS LITERALLY A COPY PASTE OF CHARA IN THE SNOWGRAVE RUN. He gives us the weapon of the kill, tells us how many left, and he is the overpowering force you meet at the very end of Chapter 2's dark world if you do Snowgrave. In parallel he calls out every single action you've taken. He literally does Chara's job in Deltarune Chapter 2's weird route, in which he becomes the embodiment of the consequences of our actions. In the normal route, as himself, he's a broken man trying to escape the situation his own consequences put him in. Spamton NEO is his own worst invention, an award losing smile to lose it all. Another thing that shows the cheshire in Spamton would be the way he seems to be everywhere. Check any dumpster, it'll have a pillow inside. Spamton lives everywhere. Even the LoadedDisk item smiles in your hand, like Devilsknife with Jevil.

Finally, the TV at the end of Chapter 2. I think it's going to be a prelude to a cheshire smile, it has the design for it already and with all the smiles we've encountered so far, this feels very much like Kris' smile. A prelude to danger, a message. We know one thing for sure : it's here because of a bad consequence. Kris opened a dark fountain, despite Ralsei's warnings. As a result, this smile comes into play to tell us things are about to go south. I think this preludes a Cheshire smile for the character this is supposed to foreshadow, especially considering their entire smile will be a reminder of Kris' actions in opening that fountain to begin with. If it's Mike's smile? We'll probably see it everywhere.

Notes

One thing I didn't mention is something I said at the very beggining. The cheshire cat's smile is prelude to danger and a bad message, which Jevil, Spamton NEO and the TV's smile all represent.

Similar to previous examples, Ralsei, Susie and Lancer are no cheshire. They're not a consequence, and Ralsei's smiles are of utter kindness, Susie's are usually positively mischievous or just genuine, and Lancer. . .is Lancer.

Important to note here that Mike essentially humiliated Spamton, which feeds even more in my theory of Mike's smile being cheshire-esque.

There you have it. My entire theory on the hidden types of smile through both games. I believe this will probably amount to something in the end of Deltarune if my theory prooves true, and if it does, then the ending of Deltarune might really change as a consequence of finding all of those secret bosses. But that's a theory for later.

Thanks for reading, I'd love your input in this and PLEASE take care of yourself, 'cause someone really cares about you :)

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