#agot incest
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obsessed with how jaime looms like a spectre over the characters and the reader alike in agot and to an even greater extent in acok. you've actually witnessed him firsthand a few times with characters like jon, tyrion and sansa, but most of him is just the golden-haired man haunting bran's dreams, terrifying him, tyrion's brave, strong, impulsive brother who has to be saved, the kingslayer of the smallfolk, the one whose incest and kingslaying has brought down the wrath of the gods upon them, ned's jaime, who is vile and never to be trusted, not worthy of any empathy, the kingslayer that is more idea than person for the younger characters like jon, arya and sansa, the kingslayer that theon almost crossed blades with, his chance for glory (which...okay theon...) the kingslayer whose vile deeds don't erase the fact that he is a knight for stannis, the kingslayer who murdered daenerys' father. he's mentioned in so many conversations. cerwyn mentions him to bran and he feels like he's falling again, renly talks about him and cersei with catelyn in front of brienne, brienne and catelyn mention him in their conversation when they're going to riverrun, robb and tyrion and tywin are all thinking about him. grrm does such a good job at just establishing his presence and significance (not only in the narrative but in a meta way as well, a hint for what's to come) in this world, which just elevates that scene when cat and brienne go down to the dungeons to meet him to an insane level.
#so much to be said about each of these characters' relationship jaime#specifically their relationship to jaime before ASOS#the parasocial nature of it#i sometimes forget that bran is literally terrified of jaime#like i blorbofy him so much but then i remember that this is the VILLAIN in bran's life who took everything away from him#regardless of his intentions or reasons or whatever#and then brienne's relationship with the idea of jaime lannister thee kinglsayer is so compelling as well#her being the one in the tent listening to cat and renly talk for the very first time about jaime and cers#and not only the incest but the attempt on bran's life???#god#GODDDD#jaime lannister#asoiaf reread#asoiaf#acok#agot#valyrianscrolls#asoiaf meta
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List of Non-Targ Westerosi In*cest Marriages
Tywin Lannister x Joanna Lannister (1st cousins)
-- Issue: Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion
Rickard Stark x Lyarra Stark (1st cousins)
-- Issue: Brandon, Eddard "Ned", Lyanna, Benjen
Cregan Stark x Lynara Stark (just says "distant cousins")
-- Issue: Jonnel, Edric, Lyanna, Barthogan, Brandon
Serena Stark x Edric Stark (uncle-niece)
-- Issue: Cregard, Torrhen, Arrana, Aregelle
Sansa Stark x Jonnel Stark (uncle-niece)
-- Issue: NONE
Paxter Redwyne x Mina Tyrell (1st cousins)
-- Issue: Horas, Hobber, Desmera
Samantha Tarly x Lyonel Hightower (previously step mother-stepson)
-- Issue: 6 unknown children, all illegitimately born before their marriage
POSSIBLE CLOSE RELATIONS (exact degrees unknown)
Jon Arryn x Rowena Arryn
-- Issue: NONE
Shella Whent x Walter Whent
-- Issue: 4 unknown sons & 1 unknown daughter
Benfrey Frey x Jyanna Frey
-- Issue: Della & Osmund
Alys Frey x Jared Frey
-- Issue: Tytos & Kyra
#asoiaf incest#westerosi history#westeros#the starks#the targaryens#the freys#the whents#the hightowers#the tarlys#the tyrells#the redwynes#the lannisters#asoiaf#agot#fire and blood#awoiaf
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Not enough people talk about the fact that Ned Stark has a breeding kink.
#ned stark#eddard stark#ik you ned#ik your game#still to this day my least favourite scene in agot#like whats going on?#then cat wants to get pregnant and im so confused#best welcome to westeros ever#right behind attempted murder of a child for spotting incest
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exceptionally rare robert smart political decision joff sansa marriage (definitely not made for the right reasons but i do like to think someone on the small council was like ‘ohh a stark match might honour lyanna your grace’ to prod him there) being undermined and overturned by cersei such a fun immediate indictment of lannister pride fucking their best interests. sansa is the best political match in westeros shes going to be sister to the warden of the north cousin to the lord of the vale niece to the lord of riverrun etc and incredibly manipulable because shes a little girl there is a lot to be done politically w sansa + people like petyr realise this. she’s scum to be disposed of to cersei who literally already has her bc she isn’t lannister her boy’s lannister and everyone else is beneath him unworthy of him. endpoint of this mindset is agot lannistwins there isnt anyone else bc theyre the only real people its incest as vanity
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Regarding the original outline + some thoughts on Jon & Sansa…
This is a long one. Buckle up.
If there is one thing I have picked up on in the ASOIAF fandom, it’s the knee-jerk negative reaction towards any theory/parallel/connection between Jon and Sansa. This was exacerbated by the show, of course but even now - five years later, there is an insane amount of vitriol that my brain is unable to comprehend. And here’s the rub; the infamous 1993 outline is the irony of it all.
In a fandom that is a-okay with *certain* incest ships (r.e D@enerys x Jon, D@emon x Rh@enyra, Jon x Aria), as well as blatantly pedophilic ships (Sansa x S@ndor, Sansa x Littlefinger, Sansa x Tyrio*), how is Jon x Sansa the worst of them all? I’m going to pin it down to audience engagement with the show, particularly around the later seasons when Jon + Sansa reunite and people began to ‘ship’ them. So many believe that is how the ship took off, and thus it is mere crack - but there are posts tracking back to 2012/2013 theorising the possibility of Jon x Sansa. Was it spurred by the show? Certainly! But it does not take away from the fact that people were making valid arguments and essays before the general fandom was even comprehending a Jon and Sansa reunion on screen. And people were open to discussing/debating it with general civility (a far cry from today).
I’m 90% certain people weren’t criticising those who began to believe in Jon x Aria when the outline was leaked…(though there were most definitely shippers before). But we never see the same level of vitriol towards Jon x Aria shippers, which is strange.
In any case, let’s talk about said outline, some of the key points - and how I believe GRRM made the switch from Jon x Aria to Jon x Sansa. I’ll be drawing from GRRM’s past works, interviews, art, and his personal life - as well as other potential literary influences. I'll be linking metas along the way, but without further ado - let's go.
In October 1993, GRRM wrote a pitch outline for a publishing company. It was three pages long and conveyed alongside the first thirteen chapters of AGOT (170 pages). The three paged letter was leaked on twitter in February 2014, though there were multiple aspects parts blacked out. Keep in mind though, this may not be the *only* outline that exists. There are multiple outlines that have never been publicly released (and will likely remain that way).
But let’s just focus on the 1993 outline, since we’re privy to the details. The thirteen chapters attached to the outline did *not* yet have a Sansa POV, and that’s because in this outline, she wasn’t listed as a key character.
The key characters were; Bran, Jon, Tyrion, D@enerys, and Aria.
The first thirteen chapters were; Prologue; Bran I, Catelyn I, D@enerys I, Eddard I, Jon I, Catelyn II, Aria I, Bran II, Tyrion I, Jon II, D@enerys II, Eddard II, Tyrion II.
I’ve seen people claim that Sansa isn’t an important character since she wasn’t listed as a key character, but they conveniently leave out the fact that a) her chapters were not yet written, b)she was given an entirely different more passive storyline in this outline, c) she dies, d) this was far far before GRRM fleshed out his characters entirely - Sansa took on a life of her own and she became her own solid complex character with an arc in 4 out of 5 of the books; 25 chapters.
In fact, since the books have been published GRRM has regarded Sansa and the Starks as a main character as well;
Collider: In creating this world, did you start out with one family and then branch off into the rest of the world?
GRRM: Well, the Starks are certainly the centre of the story, when it begins. It all begins at Winterfell, with occasional cuts to Daenerys across the ocean, because there was no way I could get her into Winterfell. But, we bring all the characters together at Winterfell, and they’re all there for a while before they start to go their separate ways ... .But, the Starks are the centre of the book and, to a lesser extent, the Lannisters. They are still the major players.
Collider: When you went into this, did you intentionally take the children, put them in an adult setting and force them to be in very adult and complex situations?
GRRM: Yeah, the children were always at the heart of this. The Stark children, in particular, were always very central. Bran is the first viewpoint character that we meet, and then we meet Jon and Sansa and Arya and the rest of them. It was always my intention to do that.”
Collider report.
May 2016 - Balticon.
(…) George said he was “pissed” that the outline was posted in the office building and that someone took photos and shared them. He said it was a letter for him and the publisher only. He was very firm when telling this and it showed on his face.
He then said that he is not good with writing outlines, making book deadlines, and that often in outlines he was “making shit up”, and “characters changed along the way”.
He went straight from talking about the references in the actual books, to the “differences” in the outline from then to now. He did say that he still knows who sits the iron throne and the end game of the main 5, but also included Sansa, but did not give any details (for obvious reasons).
[question if he is still going with the 1991 ending]
“Yes, I mean, I did partly joke when I said I don’t know where I was going. I know the broad strokes, and I’ve known the broad strokes since 1991. I know who’s going to be on the Iron Throne. I know who’s gonna win some of the battles, I know the major characters, who’s gonna die and how they’re gonna die, and who’s gonna get married and all that. The major characters.
….
“So a lot of the minor characters I’m still discovering along the way. But the mains-”
[question if he knows Arya’s and Jon’s fates]
“Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa, you know, all of the Stark kids, and the major Lannisters, yeah.”
Balticon report:
“Ah, how innocent I was… little did that guy in the picture imagine that he would be spending most of the next two decades in the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros with Tyrion, Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, Jon Snow, Bran, and all the rest.”
GRRM's live journal:
So Sansa has clearly developed into an important character from GRRM’s words, and the key-characters argument can cease, because It’s very tiring to dispel that when the characters and story took on a life of its own. (I mean, Jaime was meant to remain a villain, but he was clearly given somewhat of a redemption arc in the main series).
I paraphrased what was written here for this whole section, so go check out the longer post!
The Aria in the original outline:
*NOTE: I am blacking out her actual names in case the wrong people find this post. None of this anti her, please keep that in mind.*
Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, [...] The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, D@enerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Aria, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.
Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned [what appears to say] will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter Aria escape back to Winterfell.
Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Aria, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.
When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Aria. Wounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran.
Aria will be more forgiving ... until she realises, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Aria throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.
Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wilding encampment. Bran's magic, Aria's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.
Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Aria Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow
Observations:
Exactly how old is Aria? Is she a warrior princess who cries at songs like her aunt? Does she enjoy/yearn for romance? Is she a stunningly beautiful maiden rivalling that of Cersei? How close were she and Jon? Did they have a good sibling relationship? Or were they distant? Does she look physically different to Jon? Does she have red hair?
The Sansa of the Original Outline:
‘Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue.’
Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Aria, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.
Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders.
More observations:
How old is Sansa? Is she 16? 17? She’s conveyed as a less important character in this outline - why? Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? She dies? Jaime kills her? What is her relationship with Aria like? Are/were they close? Or was Sansa initially meant to be a two-tone villain who betrayed her family? Is she overwhelmingly beautiful? Or is she the plainer sister?
It’s quite clear that both ASOIAF Aria and ASOIAF Sansa are entirely different characters to their outlined counterparts.
In the outline, Tyrion sacks and burns Winterfell. In ASOIAF, It’s Theon and later Ramsay who does this. In the outline, it’s Bran, Aria, and Catelyn who go beyond the Wall. In ASOIAF, it’s Bran, Meera, and Jojen (and Hodor). There are a couple of other changes made here, but there seems a pattern where certain acts *still* occur in the main series, they’re just given to different characters (which makes sense, as GRRM grows organically with his characters.)
So, when we take into account the fact of ASOIAF Sansa being considered a main/key character, her marriage to Tyrion, and the possibility of her being the first to reunite with Jon - perhaps GRRM did keep a Stark x Snow romance - but gave it to a different sister.
In the 2016 Balticon report, GRRM stated he wished that ‘some past things didn’t have such strong foreshadowing and that newer things had stronger foreshadowing.’ You can make a case for J0nrya foreshadowing in the first book, but I’d argue that ACOK/ASOS is where the Jon/Sansa clues and foreshadowing is rife. (and there are certainly Jon/Sansa clues in the first book as well.)
Now to circle back. The Aria of this outline doesn’t have a personality - none of the characters do, really. We don’t know how old she is. Is she a teenager? Is she close in age to Jon? We know she has her needle, so can infer she is a fighter and spirited, but is there a soft romantic side to her? Does she cry at songs like her aunt Lyanna? Does she yearn for love? Is she immensely beautiful? For a narrative like this? It'd be likely if Jon and Tyrion are fighting to the death over her, sort of like gallant knights fighting each other to win the heart of a fair maiden (very romantic and idealistic, mirroring the songs and the stories).
(This is how I am certainly inferring such a scene would have gone).
The ASOIAF Aria we know and love took on a life of her own. She’s described as plain looking (some envision her to be more beautiful than characters like D@ny, Cersei, and Sansa though). - But just quickly on that matter, Aria is indeed compared to Lyanna in looks and spirit, though Lyanna’s beauty was described as wild and implied as non-conventional; different perspectives have different opinions on her. For example, Cersei, Jaime, Devan, the Maester who wrote the WOIAF don’t consider her anything special. Whereas Ned, Robert, and Rhaegar do. So it’s one of those instances where you aren’t exactly sure. In any case, Aria's looks aren't a driving factor in her arc, and I don’t see ASOIAF Tyrion (as creepy as he is) suddenly falling in love with her due to mere attraction because presently, Aria is all knobbly knees and elbows, stick thin, a child, not a maiden, who will still be a pre-teen at the end of the series, if there is no massive time jump.
SHE'S JUST A BABY.
But then, Tyrion did lust after Sansa, so there’s that… however ….
Sansa’s beauty is a driving force in her narrative arc. She is objectified for her beauty. Preyed upon because of her beauty; in many ways it causes her to suffer. It’s largely why LF is grossly infatuated with her - she’s beautiful like Catelyn. Tyrion is attracted to Sansa and wishes to bed her, the H0und intends to rape her during the Blackwater battle, he also comments on her breasts growing, Joffrey sexually humiliates her in court, Ser Dontos has a pervy infatuation with her, Cersei despises Sansa because she is younger, more beautiful etc which she views as a threat.
So, beauty is pertinent to Sansa’s narrative, and it isn’t vain or shallow to say so because it’s a large part as to why she suffers. And her physical beauty is meant to compliment her indulgence in romantic idealism; knights, chivalry, courtly love, beautiful appearances thus equating to good people. It also contributes to perceptions of Sansa; nothing more than a pretty, stupid girl with naive dreams.
So back to ASOIAF Aria: Her arc largely surrounds nature & nature, mercy, war trauma and survival, friendship, belonging, and family. For the majority of the story, she is a traumatised 10 year old travelling through a war torn country, witness to awful horrors, forced to assume multiple identities, until she goes to Braavos and begins her faceless man arc. But this is obviously not her endgame - she is going to go home eventually, that is quite clear.
You can argue she had a little crush on Gendry (as a 10 year old would) (and perhaps something may happen with him when she is older, I think GRRM has played with it.) But other than that, romance is not a central part of Aria's arc insofar. For outline Aria it was, but current ASOIAF Aria is on a completely different tangent all together.
(and that poor poor child is suffering immensely while this is all occurring). Currently, she has no time for/interest in it. She hasn’t been involved in betrothals/marriages, or had men lusting after her (save ‘Mercy’ and people men making brutalising sexual comments towards her). She disguises herself as a boy for a good chunk of the story as it is safer to travel.
No, I’m not trying to reduce any sexual trauma/objectification she suffers, she’s a little girl for heaven’s sake - I’m merely stating that what she is going through is in some ways similar and different to what Sansa is going through. (Who currently is in a in a very Lolita type situation with LF and men sexually intimidating/abusing her has been a key part of her arc - as I said, she suffers significantly due to her beauty. She is something to possess, she isn't real or tangible, she is a beautiful maid with a vast claim to the North.)
Anyway, ASOIAF Aria finds songs and romance ‘stupid.’
“Sansa would have shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid.” (Arya VIII ASOS)
(but that doesn’t mean she won’t encounter it later in life, it just means that at this point of the story, she isn’t interested/likely won't encounter some epic grand romance that outline Aria was likely destined for. (And she’s 11 for god’s sake!).
‘But Sansa was dreaming of love at that age!’
Sansa has been a romantic idealistic dreamer since she was a little girl. She adored those stories and is the literal embodiment of the mediaeval pre-raphaelite maiden depicted in art. It’s central to her story arc, to her qualities, and how she functions/copes with things around her. “Life is not a song.” Is so fundamental to that.
So to reiterate ASOIAF Aria is a completely different character to outline Aria- for all we know OG Aria was 15 years old, very beautiful to the point of men duelling over her, (just as depicted in art above) likely a romantic heroine, had consistent memory lapses that would cause her to “realise in terror, she had fallen for Jon,” and based off of GRRM’s past works - was probably a redhead.
“But OG Aria has a sword named needle!”
Indeed, but as I stated, we don’t know anything else about her beyond that. Many have theorised that D@ny and Jon are the epic romance of the series, but it’s clear from this particular outline that GRRM intended for it to be Aria and Jon as the epic major romance of the series. That would mean Aria would have to be a somewhat romantically-inclined character, for this development to appear natural and not forced. Based on her current ASOIAF arc, it doesn’t track for her character to make a sudden 180. Her softness and vulnerable moments come from thinking of her family and home. Insofar, this isn’t equated to yearning for love, romance, children, as Sansa has done from the beginning of the series.
Now, we know GRRM is a self-proclaimed romantic, and ASOIAF Sansa exists very much as a deconstruction of romanticism.
“He said he is a romantic, in the classical sense. He said the trouble with being a romantic is that from a very early age you keep having your face smashed into the harshness of reality. That things aren’t always fair, bad things happen to good people, etc. he said it’s a realistic world, so romantics are burned quite often. This theme of romantic idealism conflicting with harsh reality is something he finds very dramatic and compelling, and he weaves it into his work.” (2005 interview).
Sansa is arguably, the embodiment of this dismantling. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that love isn’t real, or that it doesn’t deserve to exist in a gritty world such as Westeros. There were many couples who had good, happy marriages, even after war and loss and trauma. For example, apart from the Jon Snow situation, Ned and Catelyn had a remarkably healthy relationship. So it is possible - the takeaway from the series is not that hoping is meaningless, dreams are meaningless, love is meaningless. More so that it is complicated, and it must coexist alongside all the chaos in order to achieve a sort of
equilibrium. A literal ‘Dream of Spring’ a hope for happiness, rather than happiness itself. It tracks with the bittersweet conclusion to the series ; it is a grimdark story, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’ll be a grimdark ending where everyone good and noble dies and wishes/dreams/innate desires remain unfulfilled.
In fact, I argue that a lot of them will come true - but at what cost? It’ll be at the cost of loss and grief, of suffering upon suffering, but what’s inherently more powerful, what’s more subversive is having those characters persist and rebuild, regenerate, create a new world where love and chaos undoubtedly exist alongside each other, but just because there is chaos, that does not mean the love is miniscule or cancels out entirely.
Because if all these characters have the most unsatisfying, awful conclusions known to man, well - what was the point of everything? What was the point of their journeys? This isn’t a nihilistic story, and it won’t have a nihilistic ending like everyone assumes. It’s far more difficult for an author to craft such an ending, balancing things out whilst acknowledging all the loss and still holding out hope for a better future to come. That brighter days will arrive. That winter will end, and spring will be on the horizon.
“We may lose our heads, it’s true. But what if we prevail?” (Davos I ADWD).
And that right there, sums it up perfectly.
So you need characters like Sansa, characters like Brienne, D@ny, (you know what let’s just add all the Stark children of the series to the list, because every single character arc is about remaining resilient and prevailing in some way or another).
But it’s Sansa who exists as the meta character that embodies/indulges in all those romantic ideals that GRRM is intent on exploring - it thus makes perfect sense for it to be her that experiences the romance arc. Many people think she’ll end up with the H0und, or Harry the douchebag, because it’s a part of her growing up, maturing, learning from her negative biases etc etc but she shouldn’t have to be with abusive or douchy men to learn that. She’s already learned and suffered enough.
“It is my claim they want. No one will ever marry me for love.”
And how utterly heartbreaking that she has resigned to think this, with her arc only mid-way. But importantly, just a few chapters later she enters the garden of undisputed beauty and equates the snow landing on her face with romantic kisses, she dreams of innocence and winterfell, despite lamenting how she doesn’t belong in such a pure world, she steps out into it all the same. And she builds her home in the snow, content and for once - she’s the child she is, the child she is yearning to be.
So Sansa falling in love with Jon makes sense on a characteristic level. It’s something she never would have considered as a sheltered child, not just because he’s her bastard half brother but because he just didn’t exist in her idea of how the world works. He didn’t fit in with her idea of knights, and courtly love and chivalry. He wasn’t a gallant golden prince, he was dark, sulky and brooding. He existed on the parameters of her life, and she was comfortable with that distant association - but she still loved him, and he her.
Falling in love with Jon would equate to a dismantling of these previous prejudices she held; he’s utterly unconventional, the opposite of what she has shown attraction to (despite her first ‘love’ being Waymar Royce, who resembles Jon strikingly). The man she never really considered beyond courtesy and some scarce, fond memories - to be the one who restores her faith in men, in love, in dreams.
“Realising with terror that she has fallen in love with Jon… their passion will continue to torment them.”
tracks with Sansa’s characterisation particularly, her memory lapses, her clouded judgement, and inability to interpret things correctly (and something as confusing as this would certainly cause her to have some cognitive dissonance going on).
Not to mention caution around well… men. Because who would ever marry her for love? Who would ever take her for true? Love her without expectations and judgement? It’s Jon. Who has been there since the very beginning, who has been a silent unconscious hero, the answer to her prayers, who embodies all those romantic and knightly ideals she has so desperately wanted - despite her being unaware. Who has advocated for her claim - above everyone else.
“No one will ever marry me for love.” And that infamous Jon chapter follows. Jon who is never quite far from Sansa’s suitors. Jon, who has a similar dream of rebuilding Winterfell, of having children named after lost siblings, who wants to woo a girl by giving her a rose and loving beneath the heart tree - the heart of Winterfell. Who would undeniably want to have that beautiful soul-nourishing love he never received as a child, that he believes is perpetually unavailable to him.
Above all, they just fit together. It fits with GRRM’s William Faulkner-esque “the human heart in conflict with itself".” And this is a perfectly subversive way of encapsulating that Jon confusing brotherly love and affection with romance, struggling with the shame of it all - especially post-resurrection, the religious disillusionment that would occur, the notion of Jon being loved by the kind of girl he believed he never had the right to, who his deeply romantic heart is yearned for. (There is a reason GRRM let us know how badly Jon yearns for domesticity, Winterfell love, children, and a wife. He associates his love for Ygritte with her singing, her hair, her smile. He dreams of her tending to him with gentle hands) The simple yet meaningful things that have been denied to him because of his bastardry. And god, what better way to torment these two than by having them fall for each other - realising they fit each other so perfectly, yet tormented by their familial relation. Until, as the outline puts, the parentage is revealed.
Do I believe they will act on their feelings pre-parentage reveal? No. It’ll likely exist in the subtext, in private thoughts and actions. Angst, guilt. Again, the stuff that GRRM loves - the human heart is in conflict with itself.
Much like Lord Byron’s ‘The Bride of Abydos.” Where half-siblings fall in love with each other until they realise they are actually cousins. Lord Byron, who was famously in love with his half sister Augusta, who was a stranger to him for a good portion of his life until they properly got to know each other and fell in love. (Who does that sound like?’)
And if you’re wondering how Jon and Sansa could possibly connect to Lord Byron, well there is a ‘Byron the Beautiful’ in Alayne II AFFC, and Alayne I TWOW. GRRM has further instilled characters by the name of “Manfred” which is in reference to Lord Byron’s infamous work of the same name. (I urge you to check out all of Cappy's Byron metas, they are fantastic.
And, Jon has been called a “Brooding, Byronic, romantic heroine whom all the girls love.” GRRM knows what Byronic is inferring - he isn’t daft, he’s a writer - he reads other works and takes influence and sprinkles in so many things.
A Byronic character involves:
. . romantic melancholy, guilt for secret sin, pride, defiance, restlessness, alienation, revenge, remorse, moodiness, and such noble virtues as honor, altruism, courage, and pure love for a gentle woman. (Poetry Foundation, Lord Byron)
“GRRM: I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers… which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don’t know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there’s always been something in the twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has.”
Infinity plus:
And isn’t that exactly what he would be exploring with Jon and Sansa? It isn’t a conventional romance by any means. It could never exist normally until Jon’s parentage is revealed. And that is the tormented nature of it, that is the “bittersweetness” of it - it is rooted in realism, yes - and that to me, is Sansa receiving her true love, countering that no one would ever marry her for love. The gods will grant it to her, - but it’s wrapped up in this darker, morally ambiguous thing that is confusing for her, even though Jon would be her dream come true - he isn’t this neat little courtly golden package, but he embodies all those ideals more than any man she’s actually met.
It’s subversive to what both the characters and the readers expect, and it’s just a brilliant plot twist that screams unpredictability whilst fitting together like a perfect puzzle. It creates internal conflict and evokes those themes that GRRM loves to explore. By giving the ‘heroes’ of the series a motif such as incest is extremely bold; because it challenges the reader greatly. Some people don’t want Jon to end up with Sansa because it contradicts the image that they have of him in his head - the heroic male who will save the world with his heroic counterpart and together they shall rule the seven kingdoms. To embrace his father’s family, claim a dragon, fulfil the prophecy, be the third head of the dragon, reject his stark-ness. Very predictable. Done to death a thousand times over, and yet - it is what the general audience wants/expects. It’s what the dudebros who call him the ‘GOAT’ want, it’s what the Targ stans want, it’s what the show watchers wanted - but what does Jon want?
“Yet he could not let the wildlings breach the Wall, to threaten Winterfell and the north, the barrowlands and the Rills, White Harbor and the Stony Shore, even the Neck. For eight thousand years the men of House Stark had lived and died to protect their people against such ravagers and reavers . . . and bastard-born or no, the same blood ran in his veins. Bran and Rickon are still at Winterfell besides. Maester Luwin, Ser Rodrik, Old Nan, Farlen the kennelmaster, Mikken at his forge and Gage by his ovens . . . everyone I ever knew, everyone I ever loved.” (Jon II ASOS).
“I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.
"He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade.” (Jon XII ASOS).
“Red eyes, Jon realised, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.”
He had his answer then." (Jon XII ASOS)
“He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered.” (Jon VI ASOS)
“Ygritte answered for him. "His name is Jon Snow. He is Eddard Stark's blood, of Winterfell." (Jon VIII ACOK)
"Then you must do what needs be done," Qhorin Halfhand said. "You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night's Watch." (Jon VI ASOS).
“You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.” (Jon XII ASOS)
“He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.” (Jon XII ASOS).
“If I could show her Winterfell . . . give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us.” (Jon V ASOS).
“If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.” (Jon IX AGOT).
Look, at the end of the day - we don't know how the story will go, but based off of Jon’s character arc? His thoughts? His actions? His relationships with his siblings? The fact that he has warged into a magical beast directly associated with Starks? The North? The Old Gods? The weir wood trees? I think that instead of GRRM having Jon go down the conventional disadvantaged male hero finding out he is a secret prince and thus becoming King and a proper Targ, GRRM will subvert expectations (much to audience displeasure) and do the opposite.
Learning of his true identity will just cause more angst and a major identity crisis. The one thing Jon finds real and solid, that no one can take from him - is that he is Ned Stark’s son. He raised him. Perhaps they don’t share a direct blood link. But that doesn’t matter, what matters is that he was raised by him, loved by him. So instead of choosing his father’s family; embracing the secret prince persona and fighting for the throne - he’ll choose his mother’s family. And I think that is beautifully conclusive.
But back to Jon and Sansa. GRRM is given the opportunity to explore the sort of impact this incest motif has on fundamentally good people. And I think this is what he originally intended to do with Jon and Aria.
Yes, we have Jaime and Cersei, but this is real sibling incest and rife with toxic narcissism, possession etc. We have the T@rgaryens, which are messy beyond belief and practice it due to blood purity.
But Jon and Sansa clearly differ from the rest, and that is because they exist partly as foils as to what we previously have seen. Similar to Jonnel x Sansa. By intentionally refraining from the development of a properly-close sibling relationship, making Jon and Sansa fundamental opposites visually, and associating them with entirely different cultures (yet writing their core personas as the same, their dreams compatible, their thought process and idealism similar).
GRRM manages to pave the way into such a romance that comes as a shock to the characters, the narrative, and readers themselves. Because no one, absolutely no one would see it coming, and the people who have been privy to the theory - immediately dismiss it - and become quite angry when it is brought up. Like I said earlier, a knee-jerk reaction.
To quote this brilliant meta right here:
‘Whether Jon and Sansa fall in love is up to the author and his intended exploration of literary/mythic themes that his predecessors have deployed. He is not writing from (or for) the moral values of show watchers and book readers, or their anecdotal hopes for how things “should be.” He’s writing a narrative that breaks away from conventional storytelling and what we expect from such characters.’
…
‘ I don’t believe the author is giving up completely on the romantic dream. He has made Sansa more cautious, converted her dreams into mere prayers, and has forced her to examine her assumptions, but he’s not turning her into the H0und, who is too pessimistic and fatalistic as a suitor. Sandor’s assertion that all knights are killers makes fantasy so small, it’s eliminated. I think he is setting Sansa on a path where her dreams do die, and her life becomes about as romantic as that smokestack in Cleveland - until they start to come alive again when she travels North to the Wall.’
'That cold, hard reality is still present in the fact that they are brother and sister, but once Jon’s parentage is revealed, this will change. Like an inverted Cinderella (clock striking 12), the reality will become fantasy again. But it’s still inladen with this bitter reality of their relations. So taking this into account, I believe Jon and Sansa could happen because there is no other couple in the series with which GRRM can explore his fascination with fantasy becoming “smaller,” but not completely shrinking altogether. There are no two better characters who represent these ideas, who have the same quietly domestic desires - who do not (at the moment) actively lust for power and cause it to blind them.'
So in essence, Jon and Sansa exist as the subversion of romance. In a twisted, loving sort of way that is morally conflicting to the characters and audiences (for a time). That has existed between the lines, subtly and implicitly. That the audience gives absolutely no thought, because why would they? And if they do, they are abhorred by it - but I’d argue this is the entire point. But not for the reasons you think, not because of the incest - or J0nerys would disgust them.
From the moment he started the series, GRRM has employed incest as a major motif that impacts both the narrative and the characters - the causes the war, that contributes to T@rgaryen values, legacy etc, that propels aspects of narcissism and vitriol for characters like Cersei. It’s really really interesting stuff, as uncomfortable as it is - there are no other works that explore it so messily and beautifully with such nuance.
I believe people seriously underestimate GRRM’s use of omission and subtext. Seriously, just because something is not explicitly stated, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Unfortunately fans have such a surface level reading of the text, that they are unable to peel back the layers and get to its core. They don’t consider literary influences, or art, or the Romantic movement or anything. They claim they want a complex story that is subversive, yet they cheer for the three-headed dragon theory and all the most predictable plot points that have been absolutely done to death. But then they turn up their noses at anything that goes against the grain, or insinuates otherwise.
R + L = J is a great example of existence within the subtext, yet nobody denies that it is there. No one is called crazy or delusional for it. Ned never thinks of Jon’s true parentage despite harbouring that secret for years, because it is buried deep in his subconscious.
And much to the audience’s surprise (and dismay I'm sure) that is how Jon and Sansa will manifest. This is the human heart in conflict with Jon and Sansa, but not just them - the readers as well. It’s pointing to us, asking us how we’ll possibly handle it. We’re meant to feel this conflict of emotions - anguish and torment and yet hope for something ineffable - just like the characters.
To be able to evoke that as a writer is one of the most impressive feats I can think of - and for the majority of it to exist at this point, in a subconscious limbo? How utterly complex and painful and raw and intelligent but oh so very brilliant. Perhaps one of the most compelling things to come out of this entire series, if only the general audience was open to such discussions. But alas, we must contend with the community we have, and hope for a dream of spring to come upon us.
#jonsa#jon x sansa#meta#anti asoiaf fandom#jonsa meta#long post#lord byron#incest motif#original outline#literary subversion#sansa stark#jon snow
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when I was a preteen I begged my mum to let me read asoiaf (she had all the books and talked abt them all the time) but she didn’t allow me, not bc of the incest or violence or whatever but bc she said I was too young and so would misunderstand the themes. anyways when I was 15 she finally let me read it, then promptly told me to stop after I said we should’ve seen the agot battle from Robb’s perspective. anyways I think more ppl need to be put in bad takes jail by my mom it would help this fandom a lot imo
i’m pretty sure my dad kins stannis can we switch
#it’s stannis’ autistic lawyerdom that’s what it is#his favorite hotd character is rhaenys though. because she is normal
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outing myself as an aerys-is-the-lannisters-true-dad truther. i love any variation of this theory, i think it parallels so many narrative paths in a truly agonizing/delicious way
aerys is tyrion's dad? the full abuse and horror of the intergenerational incest is manifested through tyrion, both in his physical deformities and in the way he’s ostracized by society and made into the 'monster' he's been labeled as since birth. tywin could never admit he was cucked by aerys due to his pride, but takes out his resentment on tyrion. tyrion being one of the last surviving targaryens and riding a dragon eventually, which was foreshadowed all the way back in the beginning of agot. i love
aerys is cersei and jaime's dad? the twins who appear almost otherwordly in their beauty, but who conceal the deep rot of house targaryen in their grotesque affair. even their mother can't bear looking at them. the fact that tyrion is tywin's only trueborn son only intensifies his hatred of him. tyrion being the only 'true' heir of house lannister, despite his supposed flaws which his father hated. i lovvve
i cant lie anymore rip, i think this is one of my favorite fan theories out there
#im sorry i love it#my posts#asoiaf#got#aerys targaryen#valyrianscrolls#i think the former is a lot more likely#but i still think the latter is fun#aerys ii targaryen#tyrion lannister#cersei lannister#jaime lannister#tywin lannister#joanna lannister#house targaryen#house lannister
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Targaryens were not magically attracted to each other, it was social conditioning that made it ok for them to be so. Cultures where cousin marriage is allowed, cousins do feel attraction and love towards each other. Cultures where its seen as taboo, no one would even think like that. Its the same for sibling incest. No normal person wakes up one day and gets attracted to their sibling or someone they think of as a sibling, there are always some influencing external factors. You can say Jaime/Cersei but they were influenced by Tywin's ambition of wanting to be like Targaryens. His mentality that Lannister are superior to other lesser mortals is exactly that of Targaryens and this reasoning is what Jaehaerys used to justify sibling incest. So Jaime and Cersei literally grew up hearing this, why won't they think its okay for them to love each other like Targaryens, after all their father wanted to be like them in all other aspects? This is why I think its impossible for Jon to ever feel attraction towards Arya and vice versa, because they wholeheartedly think of each other as siblings and they have grown up without any conditioning that makes sibling incest okay, meanwhile with Sansa there is always the added factor of them considering the other 'half' sibling, its not always spelled out but they are written in such a way that we do get the gist they love each other but its not the same as with their other 'actual' siblings. George has really done his best to lay the ground to make any romantic relationship between digestible lmao.
(post referenced)
Hi anon!
Ah yes, that non-existent magical Targ attraction that is invoked to cover up the level of generational trauma and legacy of abuse and indoctrination that informs these "choices".
I mean, this sure as hell is not meant to be viewed with alarm, I suppose:
Daenerys said nothing. She had always assumed that she would wed Viserys when she came of age. For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men. Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian.
(AGOT, Daenerys I)
If he had been nicer to her, would Dany have coped with this expectation by talking herself into a devoted attraction to her heroic older brother who protected her all her life? Much like Sansa invented a palatable reality with Joffrey after the Trident?
And the thing is, never mind Cersei and Jaime those two warped Targ-cosplayers, even relationship between Jon and Sansa is absolutely due to a traumatic fracture within the Stark family dynamic.
Ned's claimed infidelity, Jon's resulting bastardy, and most of all the patriarchic power Ned had, to place Jon into the rest of their family without any explanation or any consent from Catelyn... that's a massive ripple in what otherwise masquerades as harmonious and respectful mutual treatment. It introduces the brutal power differential between men and women, between upper and lower classes right into the middle of their childhood home.
For most of the siblings this is a thing they block out enough to foster a close relationship with Jon - and they ignore or cannot yet grasp what this truly means for him, for Catelyn, for society in general. But they do know, from Bran to Arya to Robb, they know.
And so does Sansa, and her comparative isolation from the boys and identification with Cat's role makes her perhaps the most aware of what Jon represents, for himself and for her. Double realities and denial are a defensive trait she develops. As is her idealisation of romance.
His identity and the way he grows up privileged but without permanence - it others Jon. Not only to his family, but also to himself, who grows up with (to him) shameful longings for unattainable things, and a fear of the social prejudices against his core character. He has no normal relationship with himself, with his desires, with his identity.
The mix of distance and closeness, the discomfiting breach of a social boundary in the pursuit of a deep-seated longing for repair... that's definitely a part of Jonsa. They are receptive to each other in a way they normally would not be. They are a bit wonky that way. But unlike with the Targaryren practice of incest, theirs is a voluntary, spontaneous attraction they will freely struggle with or act upon at their own volition.
Basically, while the relationship becomes "magically" okay through the surprise revelation of RLJ, we are still talking about an attraction and romance that would not be happening if they had not also grown up warped at their core.
Luckily for them, there is that escape clause.
You did it to yourself, Ned.
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The assertions that Dany will "succumb" to her family's allegedly "evil legacy" or the "taint" in her blood require pathologizing her for being an abuse victim borne of rape and incest, buying into bioessentialist "genetics is destiny" argument, and decontextualizing most of the passages from her book arc. This post, with a song juxtaposed with out-of-context quotes from Dany's chapters, is an excellent example.
"Every child knows the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness." The only "mad" Targaryens were Rhaegel, Aerion, Aerys II, and Viserys III. If you want to stretch it, you can include Baelor, though he was more pious and fanatic than mad. Maegor was cruel but lucid. Rhaegar was not mad, despite being Aerys II's son. And the narrative has distanced Dany from Aerys II several times, because one of ASOIAF's central theses is not "you are your father's child," but "you can overcome your father."
"She could not look behind her, must not look behind her" is not Dany "refusing to look at her family's history." This is taken from her fever dreams in AGOT Dany IX, and what she can't look back at is an icy breath that would cause her a "death worse than death, howling forever alone in the darkness." It's the first time Dany sees the Others in her dreams, and she is the only other character in AGOT to dream of them, the other character being Bran.
"I made a horror just as great, but surely they deserved it. Harsh justice is still justice." This is Dany feeling guilty for crucifying 163 slavers. How is that a sign of madness or refusal to confront her family legacy? It's actually a sign that Dany has empathy even for the worst of humanity, even for her enemies. Also, crucifying slavers isn't evil. It's odd that the same fandom that calls Dany a slaver, slave trader, slave profiteer, and slavery enabler, also calls her a tyrant or mad for crucifying slavers. What is she supposed to do with slavers? What is the "proper" way to handle them?
The mother of monsters passage is more proof that Dany is introspective and self-critical. In children's media, shounen anime, and Marvel movies, a villain may unironically call themselves a monster, but in more complicated, nuanced, adult literature, characters who call themselves monsters usually aren't bad people. They're the self-deprecating, humble, and thoughtful characters who are reflecting on their flaws and mistakes. Again, if Dany is someone who refuses to think about the dark side of her family, she would not agonize over the consequences of using her power. Monstrosity is associated with being stigmatized, ostracized, and alienated by hegemonic forces in society, and those characters who identify with monstrosity often have something to reveal about the violence of the status quo and the normalization of oppression.
George is deconstructing the coin quote, not reinforcing it. Madness/greatness, ice/fire, east/west, north/south, sun/moon, pain/pleasure, love/hate, are all dichotomies in the novel that George sets out to show can unite in some way. As I said, most Targaryens were not "mad," and I find it odd that for a fandom as progressive as it frames itself to be, the ableist stereotyping of "foreign otherized race from the East is genetically predisposed toward madness" isn't something fans problematize more.
Dany longing for the house with the red door and wanting to rest, laugh, plant trees and see them grow, are also seen as signs of madness because of her statelessness and homelessness. If a teenage girl has been raped and abused, and is herself a product of rape and abuse, and comes from an exotic Eastern family, then apparently her longing for home is actually a bomb waiting to detonate inside her, because she's unfit to belong anywhere. It's shocking that this mentality is seen as media literate or subversive.
"Dragons plant no trees" has already been disproven by Dany's arc itself. Dany reclaims fire and blood by the end of ADWD because she realizes the peace in Meereen is false (which it is). Jon Snow goes from wanting to hire glassblowing apprentices to plant crops in greenhouses to grow food, to abandoning his vows and declaring war to save his sister, and then dies. Why is that not seen as a sign of "succumbing to madness?" The acts are narratively paralleled. Perhaps––and this may be crazy, but stay with me––the thesis of FeastDance is that you cannot grow, build, and heal a nation in soil watered with blood. No such rebuilding or regrowing is possible unless and until real change occurs, and for real change to happen, the corrupt old guard cannot stay alive.
Certainly TWOW will be a darker book for every viewpoint character, but it's interesting to see how a combination of pathologizing Dany for her gender, ethnicity, genes/biology, trauma, and stateless/rootless/homeless status as an exile/diaspora, with decontextualizing her chapters, quotes, and passages, and an overall misunderstanding of the themes of ASOIAF, to single Dany out as a "dark" character who won't be able to "outrun" her "negative family history."
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If Joffrey was so proud of Robert and not of his grandfather hiding under a rock and didn’t like the incest rumours why did he change his sigil to include Lannister?
For reference:
Arya looked. An ornate shield had been embroidered on the prince's padded surcoat. No doubt the needlework was exquisite. The arms were divided down the middle; on one side was the crowned stag of the royal House, on the other the lion of Lannister.
Arya I, AGoT
Just to start off I think it's pretty legit to be proud of your mother's family and also horrified by later-breaking rumours that you're the product of your mother having an affair with her brother.
Otherwise, do we know how much say Joffrey had in this bit of clothing design? Joffrey's twelve, not that bright, and not that politically inclined. Much like Cersei insisting that Joffrey use the wedding cloak from Tywin's wedding in Joffrey's wedding, I have my suspicions that changing Joffrey's personal sigil may have been arranged by Cersei.
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i seriously think people go through extra lengths to justify the use of blood magic used against targaryens because they genuinely think the targaryen women deserve to have bad things done to them as a result of them supposedly being “blood purists” or that “well, of course it happened!! they’re all incest babies!” when there’s actually documented reasoning for several of the ““deformed”“ stillbirths that have happened.
the most prominent case is daenerys’s son rhaego, who we know was born during a blood magic ritual. mirri maz duur describes rhaego as draconic (“He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption.” AGOT Daenerys IX) which comes after mirri maz duur as performed blood magic to save khal drogo’s life.
the premise is simple: only death could pay for a life. it’s easy to assume that the horse would have been enough for mirri maz duur to heal khal drogo as was originally implied, but it’s heavily implied that rhaego’s death is a result of her as well since she handles daenerys’s birth. in the book, it’s left a little more for interpretation but in the television series, mirri maz duur outright admits to killing rhaego.
it’s worth noting the other cases have viable proof of blood magic interference as well. maegor i targaryen notably struggled to produce heirs and one of his wives, tyanna of the tower, confessed to poisoning alys harroways who had birthed a child (Maegor came to see the stillbirth, he was horrified to find the boy a monster, with twisted limbs, a huge head, and no eyes. Fire and Blood: The Sons of the Dragon.)
the same would go for maegor’s bride jeyne westerling (Three moons before she was due, Queen Jeyne was brought to bed by a sudden onset of labor pains, and was delivered of a stillborn child as monstrous as the one Alys Harroway had birthed. Fire and Blood: The Sons of the Dragon.) and elinor costayne (Queen Elinor too was delivered of a malformed and stillborn child, an eyeless boy born with rudimentary wings. Fire and Blood: The Sons of the Dragon)
the only two instances where it could be debatable whether or not blood magic was used against a child are laena velaryon who died after complications while giving birth to a twisted and malformed son and rhaenyra targaryen who lost her daughter visenya after going into premature labor. rhaenyra seems to place the blame on the greens (“She was my only daughter, and they killed her. They stole my crown and murdered my daughter, and they shall answer for it.” Fire and Blood: The Dying of the Dragons) which is likely due to the announcement of king viserys’s death and the crowning of aegon the usurper, and part of her grief. i’ve seen some people say that rhaenyra cast black magic herself during this because she “cursed” her half-siblings but this seems a bit like victim blaming and like its just on redd//it.
these are only counting births that were noted to be “twisted” or “malformed” in some way and does not include other targaryen stillbirths since they’re not recorded to have ““monstrous”“ appearances and i think acting like stillbirths = deformation is cruel and archaic. i just think some of you twitt//er and redd//it green/stark stans can’t read!
#i literally have no idea how to tag this#asioaf#got#canon targaryens#fandom wank#got wank#asioaf wank#if you hate the targs or dany don't talk to me lol#child death /#body horror /#daenerys targaryen#maegor targaryen#tyanna of the tower#jeyne westerling#elinor costayne#laena velaryon#rhaenyra targaryen#stillbirth ment /#if i missed tagging this with something potentially triggering i do want to apologize#miscarriage /#house targaryen#pro house targaryen#alys harroway
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I think most Jonsas looked around and were displeased with the guys GRRM wrote as potential partners for their fave so they landed on Jon because he is one of the few young, completely able-bodied and possibly attractive male characters around and he is not a jerk like Harrold or cruel like Joff. That's it.
Details like whether they give a sh*t about each other or if they are each other type's were completely ignored.
Fanfiction and AUs exist for a reason. If Sansa fans don't like her canonical story and relationships they can dabble in fanfiction. That's the purpose of fanfiction. Some of the most popular relationships in fandom are not canon. Not being canon has never stopped anyone. Personally, I find Jonsa to be bland and boring but go for it. People like what they like. Write all the fanfiction and draw all the fanart between the stereotypical disney princess and hot secret prince. That's never been the problem.
The problem is their insistence that Jonsa is canon, work backwards from there, mutilate and mangle the book characters, themes and relationships to shove Jonsa in there. And when this is pointed out, gaslight and attack book readers for being sexist haters of Sansa. It's tiresome.
Hence why we get utter idiocy about how Sansa was traumatized and bitter about Ned's favoritism towards Arya and yet Jon loves Sansa so much it's simply too painful for him to even think of her 😂
Jon Snow needs an entirely new personality and completely different story for Jonsa to happen and so we are stuck with a shallow, Littlefinger type who has a crush on the bully who mocks Arya for being ugly and horsefaced 🙄.
The issue with Jonsa shippers are their sexist, classist tirades on the tags against Dany, Arya, Jon etc. for daring to be tier one main characters with well defined central plots and complex themes that revolve around them, where the author has painstakingly written in relationships and leadership arcs for them, given them conflict and critical thinking skills and build this world of secondary characters to support these main characters.
Sansa fans read Jon's political intelligence and diplomacy, Arya's arc of being unable to fit, discovering her place in the world, her relationship with her father, the North and her siblings, the Lyanna parallels, Dany's revolutionary Queen getting the love of the people and want all that for Sansa. Hence the essays about how Jon and Dany are terrible rulers, how it's Sansa who was the outsider and outcast (Ned's so called favoritism is all about this).
The popular Sansa in fandom now is a self insert, a mish-mash of other characters and made up headcanons. Her most popular ship is a crackship, her relationships with Jon, Arya, Ned etc. has been rewritten. She is perennially a victim, has no agency. Right from Jon I AGoT, Sansa is an abuse victim. (All the while blaming Dany for not stopping the Khalasar's rape under Drogo!).
The fandom dichotomy when it comes to Sansa Stark is the insistence that only she be read like a realistic 11/12 year old and treated like a little child with respect to all her actions and yet she is also the most shipped character of the series!
As per fandom, Sansa is a little child who cannot understand when adults tell her a situation is dangerous or a drug is dangerous and yet she is also shipped romantically with a 27 year old adult who falls for this child. A child when it comes to her thoughts and actions, an adult when it comes to romance, love, marriage and babies.
Often someone will mention how much they love Sansa because she’s just so realistic, implying all the other characters are not realistic for their age.
And yet while we get called ‘pedophiles’ and perverts for shipping fictional children, fictional incest with age gaps etc. these same folks who appreciate realistic child Sansa will be shipping her with with Sandor Clegane, Jon Snow, Gendry, Willas, Jaime, Tyrion, Young Griff, Stannis, Littlefinger, Daenerys, Arondir, Rand, Harry Hardyng, Tom, Dick, reader etc.
If Sansa is truly this naive and childlike, unable to understand when the physician is straight up telling her a drug is harmful and dangerous for a sick little boy suffering from epileptic seizures, why are the same readers treating her as being old enough to fall in love and have a romance arc?
Many of these Sansa stans have not read the books. They are fixated on a made up version, confront others based on this made up version. When we then ask for the book quotes they throw a hissy fit, block us, delete/change their blog name and then write essays about the evil Arya/Dany fans lol.
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vv interested in varys’ thoughts on agot lannistwins because he seems to both consider them very stupid and give them an absurd amount of credit on the scheming against robert front. he fully knows about the incest and thinks that the fact they botched killing bran is both obvious and embarrassing but then turns around and talks about how if not for ned they would have gotten robert killed in the hand’s tourney through reverse psychology alone. v i’m going to be so real with you all their killing robert schemes were borderline nonsensical and only vindicated by the fact one of them worked
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even with your explain asoiaf genetics still don't make sense to me, if it's internally consistent that the kids look like one of the parents then technically joffrey and co could be actual baratheon who just take after cersei if compared to the stark kids who are all actual starks that take after their mom? and the dayne's aren't all blonde since barristan described ashara dayne as having dark locks
also further on the baratheons if they all have special strong genes that makes the kids always dark haired with blue eyes why didn't rhaenys targaryen's, (the dance one not the conqueror) who had the baratheon look per f&b, kids take after the baratheons instead of taking after the platinum haired velaryons?
(sorry if this comes off as mean or smth that's not my intention, i'm genuinely trying to have a conversation i'm just too shy to reblog the post lol)
hey no problem man i appreciate your note at the end there 🖤
so to your first point: you are totally right. that is why there was not a general widespread suspicion of incest when all three of queen cersei's children came out looking exactly like her. because children being born as carbon copies of only one parent is something that happens all the time in westerosi great houses. the novel sets this up really easily too, because the starks and the lannisters are the first people we meet. we learn that arya and jon look just like ned, while robb, sansa, bran, and rickon look just like cat. then we learn that joff, myrcella, and tommen look just like cersei. yay!! we are in a world with end-of-any-disney-movie genetics.
MOST of westeros assumed exactly what you just said, that the baratheon children just all happen to look just like their mom. people who live in king's landing and see how cersei and jaime act, or how cersei and robert act, are either suspicious or certain of incest. people like jon or ned, who look into the history of baratheon/lannister marriage, know that the kids SHOULD all look like robert.
this also explains your point re: rhaenys. baratheon genes always win over LANNISTER genes, but they do not always win over targaryen genes. sometimes they do, tho, like with rhaenys' dark hair. but then the valaryon genes won out in her kiddos.
i mean my honest answer? rhaenys had dark hair so that rhaenyra's bastard children (fathered by harwin strong) would have a reason to be seen as possibly true-born in canon. george had already done the "they look just like their mom and nothing like their dad but don't worry :)" plot in agot. he was doing a new thing about passing off bastards as true-born. a variation of the same story. a woman takes agency in her royal marriage by cheating and passing off her children as true born. part ii.
i do believe 100% that the way westerosi genetics work is internally consistent. i would be happy to knitpick individual examples of this forever. because i like getting bogged down in details and am a naturally argumentative person. i'm jewish.
but at the end of the day, westerosi genetics work the way they do for the very simple reason that this is a high fantasy series. it's magic. it is also a very effective visual shorthand to show you who belongs to what great house. this is a series with THOUSANDS of named characters. when you meet someone new and they have blonde hair and green eyes, you know they're a lannister. when a great lord is pillaging and raping, or just eagerly sleeping around, and he wants to deny his resulting bastards, well he can't. they look exactly like him. when the lord commander of the night's watch is the secret last targaryen tenth of his name, we don't know that because he looks exactly like his BASED MAMA whose stark genes beat out every last ounce of dragon he had in him.
so. i do think it does make sense. i would happily go over more examples with you. but at the end of the day try to remember that westerosi genetics work the way they do for Plot Reasons. this is a good reason for them to work the way they do, and they remind me of a lot of well established and widely accepted scifi conventions.
westerosi genetics are good. i'd give anything to be born with box black hair and white sclera lenses.
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I always wondered why Varys decided to save Gendry and had him sent to the Nights Watch instead of having him be killed, since Gendry is Roberts son and Varys wants Young Griff, Rhaegar's alleged son on the Iron Throne. Was Varys saving him to be a malleable pawn for later (since Gendry is naive to the ways of court life) or was he hoping that Gendry would die serving the Night's Watch?
I believe Varys' plan was to start a conflict that would destabilize the Seven Kingdoms before Aegon's departure from Essos. In this way Aegon could have presented himself in Westeros as the pacifying solution in a kingdom in crisis and thus obtained consensus.
And the easiest way to start a conflict, during AGOT, is obv to reveal that King Robert's heirs are bastards of the queen, born of incest. Gendry is held there by Varys because, in a world without photographs, he is one of the clearest proof of what a son of Robert's should look like. Being that with each passing year he more resembles the demon of the Trident in his prime.
When the conflict is triggered earlier than expected by Ned and Littlefinger, I guess the plan became to move Gendry to a place where he can still be useful in the future as proof of the illegitimacy of the Baratheon heirs. But at the same time where he can't threaten Aegon, because by then he will have already taken his vows as Night's Watch. And also because there it is easy to get rid of him in case he creates problems.
I think that the pawn that Varys has been raising for years to be Aegon's naïve young lord of Storm's End is Edric Storm. You know, the boy receiving a toy hammer from lord Varys... sort of rhymes with the mummer's cloth dragon.
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Thank you for the reply!😃 I did mean for an ambitious family like the Tyrell’s for Margaery but I do see how that could be difficult with them knowing the incest. If Margaery’s best options is too AU, who do you think Jon Arryn would’ve eyed up when princess Myrcella was born. It seems the likes of willas and edmure would be too old?
I don’t think Jon Arryn’s government was necessarily considering anyone as a potential betrothed for Princess Myrcella by time the Hand died. Remember, Myrcella was only seven when the royal court visited Winterfell at the start of AGOT, and even in a world which (grossly and disturbingly) normalizes the marriage of children, seven is a young age to arrange a betrothal. Nor would the Baratheon government necessarily have see the political necessity of betrothing the only daughter of the king any time before 298 AC: with the realm at peace and no major uprisings since the abortive pro-Targaryen rebellion in Dorne and the successfully crushed Greyjoy Rebellion, there may have appeared no immediate driving desire to make a diplomatic alliance using Myrcella’s hand in marriage (as there would be later IOTL, when Tyrion saw the danger in a potential Renly-Martell alliance).
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