I don’t know if I’m reaching here or not but when people say “Oh team black won because they’re bloodline continued” I can’t help but think of the fact that because of all the incest technically the greens blood did continue because Rhaenyra and the green siblings came from the same father and the king after Aegon was his nephew/cousin?? Like yeah they didn’t directly descend from them but this family is all about keeping it in the family so…

I think the discourse over who truly won the Dance is kind of silly, and the bloodlines argument is the silliest part of all.

No one "won" the Dance. Sure Rhaenyra and Daemon's bloodline continued but that's a pyrrhic victory at best. Aegon III spent the rest of his childhood isolated and miserable, his wishes disregarded by a power-hungry regency, and as king he was known forever as "Dragonsbane," because dragons-- which he hated-- died out during his reign. He did his best as king, but he was a deeply troubled man. Viserys II was raised in exile, married to a much older woman as a twelve year old, became a father at thirteen, and his children were absolute disasters, throwing the realm into decades of war. Neither of them make any attempt to rehabilitate Rhaenyra's legacy and she does not go down in history as Rhaenyra I, something they could have done for her posthumously, but didn't. If you asked Aegon III whether it was all worth it or not, I think there's a good chance he would rather have had his family alive and whole with his mother having accepted terms granting her Dragonstone, than this "victory" that put him on a throne he never asked for in the first place.

As for the long term, by the time the main series rolls around the Targaryens have been deposed and there's almost zero chance of a dynastic restoration. Daenerys is the last confirmed trueborn Targaryen alive, and while she has hatched her three dragons, it was only necessary to bring the dragons back because the Dance killed off all the dragons in the first place. The Targaryens doomed themselves trying to bring about a "prince that was promised," a prince that would not have been needed if they hadn't doomed themselves in the first place. That's the irony, the self-fulfilling prophesy of it all.

Overall, I think "who won" discourse really misses the point of the Dance. Wars of succession are ultimately terrible for the realm. My opinion about which side was "justified" is ultimately based which side I believe could have backed down with fewer long and short term repercussions, but regardless, a war over who sits the throne is unnecessary, and this one in particular was a disaster for both sides.

Rhaenyra is more conservative soccer mom then Alicent EVER WAS.

The woman who says her baby boys are perfect no matter what versus the one that openly struggles with her relationship with her kids? The woman who actively punishes people around her for telling the TRUTH?

I’m so tired of Alicent being called a conservative simply because she’s religious.

The targaryen ruled 130 years without dragons. And the most capable kings were all targaryen. After them it was a decline for the throne. Robert, joffrey, tommen, cercei were all sith ruler .

I see targ stans are investing in high quality air to fill their heads lol

But anyways. “The most capable kings were all targaryens”. You know who else were targaryens? The worst rulers of Westeros. Robert, Cersei, Joffrey, and Tommen aren’t even close to the worst kings and queen to rule. And bringing them up as evidence to show that the targaryens are good is so disingenuous.

Maegor the Cruel, Aegon the Unworthy, The Mad King Aerys, Rhaenyra (yes, I know that’s controversial), and Daenerys (yes, I know that’s even more controversial) are all far FAR worse than anyone you mentioned.

Maegor killed his wife and her entire family. He was a usurper (apparently it’s good when the targs you like do it lol), a kinslayer (also a thing only good when it’s targs you like doing it), raped and tortured many people, wiped out entire houses, killed any and everyone that he saw in any way as deserving, and created a huge war with the faith of the seven.

Aegon the unworthy was corrupt and lazy and legitimized his bastards leading to the blackfyre rebellions that led to endless bloodshed for 5 generations.

Aerys was so bad he had a rebellion staged against him that ended his family dynasty. He burned fathers and sons together. He tortured people and burned them alive. He abused and raped his wife when he would burn people alive. He wanted to kill the entire city of kings landing.

Rhaenyra (who like it or not went down in history as one of the worst rulers) known as maegor with teats taxed her people to starvation. She had daily executions. She had knights inquisitors hunt down and punish people.

Daenerys burnt down kings landing, was complicit in the rape and enslavement of hundreds, ruined city economies so badly slavery was a better option, then profited from said slavery, abandoned the people she conquered (no doubt ensuring they will be enslaved much more harshly after supporting her), raped a “free” slave that she admits still acted like a slave because that’s all she knew, oh yeah and again, SHE BURNT DOWN KINGS LANDING. And this is after the people you listed.

And this isn’t including non Targaryen rulers that ruined lives like the blackfyres. Or rulers that are bad but weirdly beloved like Aegon I who basically conquered people by threatening to kill them and everyone they loved, subjugating a country for hundreds of years.

The best rulers I admit were Targaryens. But that’s because they were the only rulers save for 4 people. Of those four, two were bad and two were incompetent. Not nearly the sadistic “mad” people I described above. And funnily enough, as soon as a Targaryen came back to power…things got worse again. Funny how that is.

Oh and by the way. Going with the histories of Westeros. Guess who is among the best rulers according to small folk Aegon II and Alicent. Seethe :)

I’m going to preface this post by saying I don’t give a flying fuck about the hate I’m going to receive for the opinion I will be sharing and I won’t bother replying to any comments attacking me for it.

I fucking LOVE that Aemond killed Luke and I wish it wasn’t accidental. I wish Luke’s death was full on intentional, lol.

As a victim of bullying, I’ve been in situations where I have had to fend off 20+ kids as a kid myself. I’ve been verbally, physically, emotionally and psychologically assaulted as a child by other children, simply because I wanted, strived for and had good grades in school, actions that did not affect any of my classmates in the slightest. Therefore, I absolutely sympathise with Aemond, whose lack of dragon and later on his acquisition of one hurt no one (dragons belong to no one, you snooze you lose), yet he still got ridiculed and attacked for it. Yes, Aegon was also a bully and I hate him for it, but ultimately he grows out of it and supports his family, unlike the Strong bastards who remain bullies and assaulters. Oh, and Aemond tried to hit Jace with a rock because he attacked him first. Accusing him for standing up for himself is victim blaming. People who defend the Strong boys are bullies and that’s final.

No, I don’t give a rat’s ass that his attackers were children. Aemond was a child, too, and they ganked him 4v1. It’s crazy how some of y’all support physically attacking someone because you don’t agree with them. It was satisfying to see him kick their teeth in. Aemond and Luke are only 2 years apart, even if the actors’ appearances suggest otherwise. Your age does not excuse you being a fucking piece of shit. Children and teenagers appear on the news daily as rapists, killers, assaulters and all kind of criminals. That’s the reason juvie exists. Children should face the consequences of their actions.

“Are you excusing child murder?” if it is by the hand of the child they unapologetically disabled, fuck yeah. Besides, at the end of the day, Aemond dies, too, so you could say justice is served.

Still, I would have given the Strong boy the benefit of the doubt if it weren’t for this scene:

Lucerys is laughing at Aemond.

He is looking him in the eye and he is laughing at him. It’s been 6 fucking years. Lucerys is 17 (confirmed by the writers) and he feels no remorse for what he did. He was not punished for his action, so he has learned nothing.

He feels safe to mock Aemond, in the comfort and safety of his grandfather’s house, where his guard and stepdad can stop Aemond, whom he cannot beat on his own, from bashing his head against the wall. He feels safe to attack Aemond when he calls him Strong, knowing that other people will finish the fight he started but can’t win.

But what happens when no one is around to protect him from the consequences of his own actions? He shits himself. His face falls, he stumbles backwards and does not object to Aemond calling him Strong.

Not laughing now, huh, you little shit stain?

Nobody can convince me Viserys loved Aemma. I don't care what nobody says. I'm not listening. I don't wanna hear it.

And I know Aemma probably in the Seven Heavens fuming- cause imagine your husband murdered you for a son and then later on he gets three sons and neglected them.

HE GETS THREE OF WHAT HE MURDERED YOU FOR AND THEN NEGELCTS THEM!

Viserys deserved the slow death that he got. Infact, it wasn't slow or painful enough.

viserys : is angry at daemon for hooking up with Rhaenyra because she's "just a girl"

also viserys : is married and has 2 children with a alicent, who is rhaenyra's age.

People saying that Alicent started a war the began the fall of the Targaryen dynasty… like that’s a bad thing

I know it must’ve really gagged Rhaenys when Vaemond told her that it was a queen that sat the throne. Like I bet it truly boils some Targaryens *cough Daemon cough* blood that little miss sad brown eyes with no dragon managed to peacefully rule over something they see as a right or a power only someone who is like them should have. They lash out at her because she is the outsider in ‘their’ territory.

And it’s extra sad bc Alicent literally tried with all of them. She dressed in red and black, she wanted to show Daemon those nasty tapestries, she supported Rhaenyra’s claim till she just couldn’t anymore. She wanted to ‘assimilate’ bc often that is all you can do when you are in a hostile environment or powder keg situation. It’s why I hate the ‘alicent’s kids aren’t real targs’ or ‘she’s trying to get rid of targ culture’ arguments. On top of just not making sense, it’s not true. She TRIED. All she was met with was resentment, often for decisions that were out of her control.

It is easy for them to use Alicent (the outsider) as a scapegoat bc if they didn’t they’d have to look at their own behavior and how their ‘Targaryen exceptionalism’ has done nothing but make them greedy and stupid

I can't understand how anyone could look at the Storming of the Dragonpit - the greatest act of courage to ever be seen in Westeros - and despise the smallfolk for it.

The bravery, the discontentment, the hopelessness for their own future, and yet, the undying hope for the chance of liberation that would push those who suffer the most from the vicious wars for a metal chair that is meaningless, to finally say - Enough.

To risk being burned alive so that their children won't be. Knowing that the chance for failure is tremendous and nevertheless trying. Because they have to. Because enough is enough. Because no one is safe, not even their own. Because there is no other way. Because the Targaryens will always resort to this. They will always resort to Fire and Blood.

The rule of the dragons must come to an end.

And to look at the greatest act of revolution against the Iron Throne and think it anything else but justified, earned, bought and payed for with their own blood. That anyone would find it in their hearts to pity the dragons, that are nothing more than weapons of mass destruction is so contrary to the spirit of the series that I wonder if people know what they're reading/watching at all...

welcome to asoiaf fandom

you want:

- nice theories and deep analysis

you receive:

- neonazi power fantasy about pure blood supremacy

Alicents a better person than me because if I was forced into marrying an old man at 15, regularly SA’d and forced to have children so he could have “heirs” just for me and my children to be cast aside with no future or protection in place for the children HE wanted, I would set fire to his empire and watch it burn to the ground.

Sick of hearing about how sexually liberated Targaryens are. Targaryens are more "sexually liberated" than the rest of Westeros in the way Mormon fundamentalists are more "sexually liberated" than the rest of America.

Yknow what? I agree with Criston Cole.

He shouldn’t say that about Rhae!!- Why not? He’s allowed to dislike ONE woman who was his BOSS.

He shouldn’t bully Rhae’s kids!!- nah he should have bullied them harder. (Also if he was nice the court could say they were HIS kids, putting him in more danger!

He shouldn’t have killed Joffrey or that other guy (I forgot his name 💀)- ight, Daemon shouldn’t have killed Vaemond but y’all cheered that on so idk.

I think he should have been WORSE, I want him pushing the strongs in the dirt and laugh when aegon copies him. I want him to be disgusted by Rhaenrya, Daemon, and Viserys; to fight back a gag when he has to be near viserys, to use his power as a kings guard to be an asshole to those under him cuz he’s alicents favorite.

Melt him be a lil brat he deserves it.

Reminder that if your feminism revolves around propping up women that partake in traditionally masculine activities/roles and shitting on or even hating women who embody traditionally feminine roles and enjoy feminine activities you’re not really a feminist.

It sets the precedent that women are only valuable and valid if they have traditionally masculine traits, which feeds a narrative that masculine traits are better simply because they are associated with men who are the ideal. It perpetuates the idea that things that are feminine and traditionally associated with women are in fact inferior to men/masculinity and should be looked down upon and belittled.

And, it alienates so many individuals that feel more comfortable in femininity, regardless of gender identity.

I think people in the ASOIAF fandom really need to learn this because feminine characters are so despised on the basis that they are not “better” women. Simply because they don’t embody traditionally masculine things like conquering or fighting.

Much of the hate comes from stans that love characters like Rhaenyra, Daenerys, and Arya (and do not get me wrong I love Arya), who are women and girls that are in positions that allow for more traditionally masculine behaviors and tomboyishness. And they will say incredibly sexist things about how the other women in media are inferior and directly contrast these women to their faves negatively by pointing out that they’re “too weak” or “subservient”. They reduce femininity to weakness and bowing to patriarchy instead of considering that some people have a different, more feminine nature. And that is OK! Just because a woman isn’t wielding a sword or fighting on the front lines or pursuing leadership roles in masculine ways (because historically women exacted and sought power in different ways than men) doesn’t mean they aren’t valuable and strong characters. Do not use feminine characters as a negative comparison to show how “feminist” and great your fave is. Because it’s just so blatantly sexist.

Don’t fall into the trap of reinforcing patriarchal rhetoric!!! Don’t reinforce narratives that traditional masculinity is superior to femininity!! Don’t belittle feminine activities and act as if they aren’t valuable!!! Girbosses are great but so are gentlewomen.

In the show, Rhaenyra is just as weak and self centred as Viserys is.

The fact that she repeats her father’s mistake, remarrying and producing legitimate children who would overshadow her chosen yet questionable heir, is so stupid.

Viserys desires another woman and male heirs, therefore he gives into the temptation of obtaining Alicent and having male children, without realising that by doing this he’s making it difficult for Rhaenyra, a girl, to keep the throne.

Rhaenyra desires her uncle above everything else, therefore she gives into the temptation of obtaining Daemon and having children with him, without realising that by doing this she’s making it difficult for Jacaerys, a bastard, to keep the throne.

The dance would have happened anyway, maybe it could be postponed for one generation had Otto not been so eager to chase the throne, but it would still happen.

And let’s be real: had Viserys not chosen Alicent, he’d pick another girl, like Laena, whose father would want the exact same thing Otto wanted: his blood on the throne. Corlys admits that’s what he’s after. Anyone would do the same thing. All the great houses are ambitious. The issue is that Viserys and Rhaenyra kept making stupid choices that made it easier for them to be undermined and then they cry about it.

So Luke lost control over his dragon as it burnt Vhagar without his permission. Immediately Aemond loses control over Vhagar and she proceeds to kill both Luke and his dragon. The dragons acted as though both dragon riders were not there. They're animals so their instict was to fight and attack back.

While I would have loved Aemond choosing to kill Luke, I do like that this change shows the Targaryens are not demigods. They barely have control over their dragons