Why are team green stans always the first to talk about how Nyra didn't fight in the books? In the books Alicent was a grown ass women beefing with a child. In the books Criston was with Rhaenyra since she was seven and was such a creep even Alicent pointed it out. In the books Helena is not a dreamer. In the books Aemond is always making weird ass comments about female genitalia. In the books nobody cheered at Aegons coronation and were asking for Nyra. In the books Rhaenys is Rhaenyras number one supporter. The best is "fat Rhaenyra" What about fat Helena and Aegon? Both Helena and Aegon were said to be fuckin ugly but Rhaenyra was said to be beautiful before and after she gained her weight. Anywayssss

"ANGEL", he calls me

does he know that i'm falling from a precipice that i tripped off long ago?

"DEVIL", you call me

but seem to be enjoying the fruits of my labour that came to me too young

i’ll never forgive the hotd writers for benching laena in order to make rhaenyra look bad. RHAENYRA & LAENA made the Jace/Baela and Luke/Rhaena betrothals, not Rhaenys. Rhaenys was never involved. But instead we get Rhaenyra making this desperate last attempt to secure Rhaenys’s support at the when Luke’s inheritance is about to be taken away. No, Laena went to her grave with the expectation that her daughters would be Queen Consort of the Seven Kingdoms and Lady of Driftmark because of the matchmaking she did. Not Daemon. Not Rhaenys. Her.

i think the biggest problem i have with the whole team discourse in f&b + hotd is that it isn’t just about which characters you like more/who you want to sit on the throne at that end; it’s that each side is fighting for completely different ideologies, regardless of one members personal beliefs. grrm could not have made it anymore clear.

team black isn’t just fighting for rhaenyra to be queen, they’re fighting for the monarch’s right to choose an heir, for the oaths they swore years before, for the complete opposite of precedent/tradition: the king’s word is law. team green isn’t just fighting for aegon to be king, they’re fighting for tradition, that no matter the words of a king being law sons will always come before daughters, that oaths are fickle and don’t matter. each side is in some way fighting back against what’s already been established for the kingdom, but the end goal is completely different.

we’re not given as much insight into why most of the houses initially sided with rhaenyra, but we do have an inkling into how the green council felt and acted, however. jaehaerys choosing baelon over rhaenys (against andal tradition, the king can choose his heir) is one point. the great council of 101 is another. alicent, despite being the leader of the council, is removed from the equation and shoved off to the side when it comes to swearing oaths of loyalty between the members on account of her womanhood. daemon being a second coming of ‘maegor’ (despite what we know would be a better suited title for aemond, but i digress) is also used. when discussing who would side with them the vale is automatically disqualified from the list, due to them presently being ruled by a woman, jeyne arryn. she doesn’t choose to fight for rhaenyra for the sole reason of them being kin, but because her own right to rule can and will be put into question if aegon steps over rhaenyra. because she is a woman. she does so in spite of her dislike for daemon (and his supposed maegor-ness) too.

even if one were to look at each characters personal feelings about the succession the fact of the matter is that rhaenyra is usurped because she is a woman. it’s stated almost blatantly multiple times before and during the war. the greens use scapegoats and smokescreens in attempts justify it (her ‘bastards’ chief among them, but legally her sons live and die as the trueborn children between her and laenor, with the reminder that septon eustace refutes this claim to begin with). even when she is killed grrm has her breast pricked to arouse a dragon that doesn’t want to kill her (and why is that?). aegon ‘wins’ against her and is king, but then why is jaehaera, as his last living remaining child not named his heir? why is aegon iii put ahead of her, despite being the enemies son? these are rhetorical questions. aegon had no plans to ever consider her his heir, he made it clear with how excited he was to marry cassandra baratheon and produce more ‘strong’ sons. his dragon (who had fought and bled for him the entire war) wasn’t mourned properly, he couldn’t wait to hatch a ‘new dragon, prouder and fiercer than the last.’ yet he wasn’t even capable of doing that in the six months before he too was killed.

it’s also safe to mention that grrm created an entire separate lore story, one that would seem to have no bearing on the original story unless you’re capable of understanding symbolism. the amethyst empress is usurped by her younger brother the bloodstone emperor, and the first long night ensues from this decision. rhaenyra (amethyst = arryn blue + targaryen red) is usurped by her younger brother aegon ii (bloodstone = hightower green + targaryen red) and the dying of the dragons, the very creatures needed to stop the next long night, are eradicated, along with the magic needed to hatch them and keep them alive (until). the war is the blacks (power, death, grief, rebellion, restraint) versus the greens (ambition, greed, jealousy, anger, wealth). the amethyst empress is important to the main story in the same way that rhaenyra is important, that snubbing the women (an integral aspect to the power the targaryens held) of house targaryen can lead only to disaster. daenerys is the key, the one to break the cycle and fix the wrongdoings caused by her ancestors obsession with power. mother of dragons, mhysa, breaker of chains, slayer of lies, daughter of death, the dragon queen, azor ahai come again, the prince that was promised will bring the dawn.

you can argue for technicalities sake all day, but there is a meaning to this story beyond the scope of rightful heirs. and it shouldn’t be shoved off to the side just so you can praise your favorites and hate those who go against them. it makes for a poor consuming of the actual story. fire and blood was created as a history book to expand on daenerys as a character. her family, what and where she’s come from, and how she relates to them. she’s the antithesis to every targaryen that’s come before her, a hero in her own right. the only targaryen’s we can say are radically important to dany’s story are the conquerors (aegon the conqueror with teats) and rhaenyra (the amethyst empress). i don’t know, just some food for thought.

a rumored bastard and a proven, disinherited, legally illegitimate recognized bastard are not the same.

Rhaenyra’s sons are rumored bastards, i know the show has a lot of team green stans feeling bold but just as in the books, they are never legally considered bastards in the show either. they are speculated to be via their physical features and Laenor’s apparent sexuality, but since Laenor and the KING (btw Westeros is a absolute monarchy, meaning the king IS law) both claim all three boys as legitimate heirs, unless someone demands a medieval dna test, those kids are legally Laenor’s true sons.

this is apparently a very hard concept to understand for some, hell even Alicent in the show says something like “we can all tell” which fair point, but that is not proof enough. looks, accusations, and rumor are not the same as actual proof of adultery or bastardy.

someone i was having a “discussion” with used Joffrey as an example to point out a flaw in my logic, but ultimately proved my point. Joffrey was a rumored bastard. Ned himself had no more proof than Alicent does, just hair color and a hunch, so Joffrey was never legally disinherited from the line of succession. I hate to defend either of these men but King Robert never publicly disowned him and called him bastard, which is why Joffrey ascended to the Iron Throne. now the rumors did hurt, and caused huge political issues leading to the War of 5 Kings, which is exactly why Alicent and Team Green is so insistent that Rhaenyra’s children are illegitimate, they know they cannot legally or physically prove her children are bastards, especially when Laenor and the King are claiming them are true born, but they can spread the rumor and call into question Rhaenyra’s honesty and morality. think episode 8 when team green takes their chance with Vaemond to attempt a coup of sorts for the Driftmark Throne, why would the succession of Driftmark need to be settled if Rhaenyra’s sons are true born? why would Alicent / Otto need to make this decision in place of the sick king and mia lord of tides who both had already been stating Luke would inherit for years. it’s all apart of the scheme to tarnish Rhaenyra’s reputation as Vaemond has no other proof either, and promptly loses his head (both metaphorically and literally) by calling the recognized heir to the throne a whore and her children bastards with no proof in front of the whole court.

it is a political scheme on both sides, Alicent cannot prove anything, and Rhaenyra cannot disprove the rumors no matter how many times they are claimed as true born sons. Rhaenyra has to live in the comfort the law gives her, as legally her sons are seen as legitimate, and thus legally they are protected. and from an unbiased pov with both in universe and historical references, those kids might be bastards in actually but not legally.

Rhaenyra goes through hell to keep her children legally protected, not only for their sake but for hers because should the truth come out both her and Laenor would be seriously punished, i wouldn’t go as far as executed but that would depend on if Viserys was old and bed ridden or dead. which is why im making this incredibly long post repeating myself in every point. you can argue all day about Rhaenyra’s children and their parentage but i am making this to make it clear that her children are not *legally* bastards by Westeros law. in order for Jace, Luke, and Joffrey to be illegitimate bastards Laenor, Rhaenyra, Harwin, and/or Viserys would have to publicly acknowledge them as such and disinherit them. no, Laenor and Viserys dying do not magically make Rhaenyra’s children legal bastards either. they would, again, need to be claimed and proven as such and disinherited.

and at the end of it all, true or not true, the rumors made a lasting impact on the story. so much so this fandom is still debating this topic, and frankly i am dreading the season 2 release when all the bad takes and bad faith arguments start up again.

anyway other famous rumored bastards are in Targ history are:

Maegor

Daeron II

Another useless TG argument: “Alicent asked to see the baby, not for Rhaenyra herself to bring him. Rhaenyra chose to make a scene.”

Alicent was separating a mother from her newborn simply to show off her power, and for the possibility to nourish her obsession in front of the whole Court (“See? See??? Brown hair! Brown hair!”).

Rhaenyra was supposed to do what? Allow the maids to bring her newborn child to the woman who despises her and who is known to have a vendetta against her innocent children?

Newborns are vulnerable. You mean to tell me that Rhaenyra didn’t consider that Alicent could have done something to hurt the child if he were alone in her possession?

Green fans are simply upset because Rhaenyra managed to counter attack beautifully by bringing the child herself.

1. She showed the entire Court how cruel their queen is, by demanding to see her and the child immediately after birth.

2. She showed true strength by managing not only to stay on her feet but also to walk a long way and climb stairs in order to reach Alicent’s chambers, and everyone at Court saw it and was in awe.

3. She was sending Alicent a very clear message: she would not be pushed around.

Alicent got away with a lot of things those many years and constantly abused her power without facing any consequences. Viserys just let her do whatever she wanted. She was very, very, very lucky that Daemon was away from Court. Married to Rhaenyra or not, if Daemon were at Court, do you really think he would have let Alicent get away with this psychological torture she was inflicting on the Crown Princess and her children? I actually fear even thinking what Daemon would have done to her.

As much as I want GRRM to finish and publish Winds of Winter, honestly I can’t even blame him for not being in any sort of rush to do so.

If I were him, and I spent like half my life writing bible sized books— with thousands of pages of additional material that is primarily focused on how the mistreatment of women and the concept of purity culture is extremely destructive and harmful, why heredity monarchies are dangerous, and how biased misogynistic men will manipulate history, only for people to unironically support male primogeniture, be proudly “bastardphobic”, rank characters based on their ability to fight, and sympathize with slavers. I would genuinely just not finish the series as a punishment like I don’t even blame him for not being eager to publish more content just for people to grossly misconstrue.

something something the lack of fatphobic memes about Helaena vs the hundreds you can find on Rhaenyra says something about the demographic tg attracts.

alicent is a “childbride at 15” and suddenly her growth is stunted forever and she can’t be held accountable for her actions but luke was “nearly a man” when he died at 13 so therefore he deserved to die and has to answer for the “sin” of taking his uncles eye out? mkay.

“Rhaenyra’s sons are bastards and they can’t have the throne because of that and neither can she because she birthed them.”

have…have any of you actually watched this series? Have you not read the books to this series that yall swear you know everything about?

whether or not yall like to admit it, Rhaenyra did her duty by giving her house heirs, and those heirs ,till this day, are still known as Targaryens and Velaryons.

Laenor said they were his, Corlys said the same and so did Viserys. The main people who needed to say something did, and you all simply do not like it. They hatched dragon eggs in their cradles, something only their Mother (Rhaenyra) and Father (Laenor) were able to do.

Considering that specific thing, no one really cared because they did something Alicent’s children couldn’t do which made them shine with legitimacy.

“but…but… no one would side with them…”

did we forget that a whole rebellion that did not end until 10-20(?) years before Dany was born was started because a bastard wanted to be King? Did we forget that the Blackfyre rebellions central point of fighting was this bastard should be king instead of this other rumored bastard? And they both had people fighting valiantly for both sides, either bastard or alleged bastard?

Did we not watch Margery get tossed between Joffery and Tommen so she could be Queen even though there are rumors of their lineage??

Did we forget heavy members of the Greens were singing Jace’s praise as the only man worthy of the Throne during the Dance??

NO ONE GAVE A DAMN, AND THE PEOPLE WHO DID ONLY CARED BECAUSE THEY GAINED SOMETHING OUT OF THEIR DOWNFALL. WAKE UP!

edit: JACE, LUKE AND JOFF ALSO WERE THE ONLY CHILDREN TO HAVE BETROTHAL AND MANY OF THOSE! MFS WERE FIGHTING TO HAVE THEIR DAUGHTERS MARRY RHAENYRA’S SON WHILE NO ONE WANTED TO MARRY ALICENT’S!! THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT!!

If the kings word isn't law, then why is it that the Greens only usurp Rhaenyra after Viserys is dead.

Greens:

rhaenyra targaryen + red

i made a helpful slideshow for those who may be confused!

“He’s always angry, but we haven’t done anything.”

“…but I have a crooked finger, just like Mama!”

“We were born here. Mama is our mother.”

“I do not wish to be different.” “Nor do I.”

“So let us be good sons and please those who love us, so they may forget what we lack.”

I’m never going to recover from this. Once again scenes were removed that would add to both boys characterizations, and we all know why. The scenes would make the audience realize how Aemond’s ‘I’m being bullied for not having a dragon :( I’m the real victim!’ storyline so fallible and easy to shatter in universe because it’s a completely normal occurrence for Targaryen’s. Aemond is not the first child to not have a dragon by the age of ten, the original conqueror’s, Baelon, Alyssa, Rhaenys, Laena, Viserys, Daemon, Aegon II, Helaena, etc. all claimed young or fully grown dragons somewhere between the ages of 11-18.

The only character that had the potential to be marketed as his biggest bully is his brother. They’re never going to convince me (and many others) that it was Rhaenyra’s sons who would ever go after another child for their lack of a dragon, especially given that they were almost surely taught that hatching a cradle egg is but one way for a Targaryen to have a dragon. Aemond felt lesser than his nephews due to the way Alicent was parenting him. She led him to believe that his nephews were bastards, that due to their blood they were beneath him, and this is what led to his inferiority complex. It makes more sense than the crock of shit the show runners decided to include in the show.

Rhaenyra and her sons were subjected to actual abuse and bigotry over the timeskip due to their gender and their blood, respectively. It very much makes me sick how they’re being treated by not only the show runners, but a decent portion of the audience as well. Bastardphobia is not cool or edgy. Looking down on someone because their parents weren’t married is vile. It falls into the same category as believing in blood supremacy. It’s 2024. Do better.

Jace and Luke will forever be Mama’s boys and are never beating the best brothers/sons allegations.

</3

i’ve never seen someone actually explain how Criston Cole got away with killing a noblemen and harming the heir of Driftmark IN PUBLIC during RHAENYRA’S wedding.

like realistically there should’ve been nothing to protect him from the law, not even Alicent. honestly that is why i could never fully say Viserys was a great man/king/father/husband/whatever because he should’ve had Cole immediately arrested and delt with once the commotion was settled, if not Viserys than Corlys as Cole literally punches Laenor in the face causing him to bleed, probably breaking his nose. one man dead, two heirs humiliated and one physically harmed, all literally during the princess’s very important political wedding with the entire court + other important noble houses in attendance- this is treason on some degree.

becoming Alicent’s personal knight wouldn’t have absolved him of his actions, so why was he never punished? in fact him never getting punished is what makes him think he’s allowed to act any way he wishes- mocking Rhaenyra and her children, especially with/in front of the Queen, killing those who support Rhaenyra at court (it wasn’t just that one lord on the council), he just feels so comfortable to act any way he wants and Alicent indulges him in that.

but WHY do Viserys and Corlys never hold him accountable? why is Cole never put on trail? why is he allowed to become the “Protector of the Queen” and train her children? it literally makes no sense and is one of the many show changes that i can’t stand because it makes no sense. any other king and Cole would’ve been killed or sent to the wall as punishment.

“Viserys knew the Realm would never accept a Queen.”

The Greens didn’t even give the Realm a chance to choose between Rhaenyra and Aegon!!! They chose for the Realm based on greed and expected everyone to fall in line.

Was there a Great Council? I don’t recall.

All I can remember is a Green Council filled with a few conspirators. And the one person in that Council who opposed usurpation and high treason, was murdered by a Kingsguard who stained his white cloak so many times and was constantly pardoned.

Oh and…Rhaenyra ends up having most of the Realm on her side.

Is Alicent the only delulu in that family or is it a hereditary Hightower thing?