#Been playing BG1 a bit
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The most obvious abuse aside, Bhaal's also in possession of a+ parenting skills when it comes to communicating what he wants his kids to do.
You want your child - who has no idea who you are or that they're not simply dreaming - to murder the soul of the Cyricist that they killed this morning using your own dagger and they decide to choke him to death with their bare hands instead? Well, I mean, you could've explained what you wanted instead of hinting... or!
"You turn to leave, but find the exit blocked. The lone dagger has become five: a skeletal set of claws that hovers before you. A talon extends and presses against your chest, and a hollow voice chills the air. "You should use the tools you are given." It traces a line of ichor on your tunic, increasing in pressure. "Listen to what is bred in the bone." There is a flash of motion as the claws push deep into your chest."
Or you could just fucking murder them! Because that's his solution to everything. (Interestingly, if you're being a goody two shoes at this point then Bhaal is significantly more pissed, but you wake up before the dagger hits - but he also yells at you after you wake up too)
Remember; if your father is Bhaal, then do remember that he expects you to be fully dependent on him; that you owe him for everything you are and have; and that you're supposed to somehow understand what he expects of you perfectly without him explaining a damn thing and you will be horribly punished for your lack of telepathy. Wow, this got realistic all of a sudden.
What was life like for Durge as his high priest? Did Durge just have to guess what the urges want and then gauge how hot or cold their guesses are by the way Bhaal murders them in their dreams? (I mean, yes, he wants murder - but Bhaal gets picky about this shit no torture, forced suicide, falls, or collisions and you have to do it personally and it has to be done for fun and-).
#Been playing BG1 a bit#You can tell Bhaal is mildly angry at you because he kills you#you can tell he's VERY angry because he kills you#You can tell he's pleased with you because he kills you#You can tell he just wants to chat because he kills you#I'm sure there's nuance here I'm just not sure anybody except Bhaal has a fucking clue what it is#babbling#the idiot three#durge#edgelord hours#bg1 spoilers
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shoutout to my dad for complaining his baldurs gate 3 download took 45 minutes. i cant even play it but go OFF
#i mean my laptop can run it but.#minimum. not recommended#and i avoid playing games that way unless i have no other choice#which means theres 4 options. right#1. i get to borrow his pc when hes done. (unlikely.)#2. i just dont play the game (skipping out on a fantasy rpg with dialogue options?????? ME??)#3. i wait for ps5 release (next month)#4. i somehow randomly get 2000 bucks on my bank account and use it to build myself a halfdecent pc (unrealistic)#(also i wouldnt be building it myself i would be sitting off to the side listening to my dad explain what hes doing while hes building it)#ramblings#it was a little bit funny i was SO close to bitching about it#like yeah man. having to wait for the game after release. definitely have NO clue what thats like#feeling the squidward behind his window watching spongebob meme rn#i do. think he deserves it mind you. like hes loved bg for years#hes been waiting for this game to release in its entirety.#since before i was BORN#not counting bg1 & 2 rereleases. obviously#but also give it to me rn#I WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HES TALKING ABOUT WHEN HE INEVITABLY STARTS SAYING SHIT#i still remember when i played mass effect & we had lenghty conversations about like. everything in that game#he was sitting next to me when i beat me2. ok#yeah sometimes our taste in games differs a LOT (his sandboxy zombie game vs me with my 'the script is longer than crime & punishment'#but when it overlaps its magical bro#as much as i say 'i wouldnt be the person i am now without my mom' (derogatory)#i say it about my dad but (affectionate)#sorry its 7 am i got a little emotional over how i live with people who actually like having me around now
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Viconia - Plot Support extraordinaire
Just to preface this as I don't want this to seem like I am hating on BG3 as a diehard fan of the original series because I really do love BG3. I've completed it twice now and think it will absolutely be joining my annual rotation of BG1/SOD/BG2 playthroughs but it has its problems, much in the same way that the originals themselves have problems as well.
So after my Sarevok post I wanted to treat Viconia to the same critical analysis as unfortunately I think she also gets the short end of the evil plot stick. I get it, evil characters can be hard to get right but again similar to Sarevok, in my opinion, her character regresses to evil Shar mook number one rather than actually being Viconia. Worse still she's entirely at the mercy of being wrapped up in ShadowHeart's backstory.
Anyway this is a bit of a deep dive into Viconia's issues in BG3. Spoiler warning for both BG3 and BG2.
1. No Grey DeLise.
Again, similar to Sarevok, another prolific voice actor that has done recent video game work seemingly not approached for the role. I can't help but think that some of this is down to the rushed nature of act three generally and Larian just having to get whoever they could for the job in the time that they needed it. Unlike Jaheria and Minsc there's no attempt to mimic her original VA or get someone who sounded like her so she ends up sounding completely and utterly different.
This version of Viconia sounds haughty and stuck up which while the original Viconia VA has a degree of arrogance, she is also pretty sultry. Haer'dalis even comments that she has 'the throaty voice of the most expensive courtesan' and Viconia deliberately plays on the stereotype of the sensual female drow with certain male party members for her own benefit e.g the male Bhaalspawn, Edwin, Sarevok and even Anomen (I cover this a bit here and here).
2. Her in game design...just isn't great.
Let's be honest, combined with the voice, Viconia's design basically makes her unrecognisable. She looks like a generic old drow lady to the point that I did have 'Is that meant to be Viconia?' moment when I first met her.
Now I appreciate there is minor controversy with Viconia's original BG2 portrait (which is probably the most recognisable image of her) because the artist actually used a famous porn star as the base for it.
For info, this was a common practice at Bioware at the time as they used to use lots of different images as bases for portraits. They finally got into legal trouble for it in NWN where due to various copyright claims they had to change quite a few portraits.
More recently, I think that Beamdog actually did quite a good job of recreating a faithful adaption of her original portrait in Siege of Dragonspear while presumbably navigating the original copyright issue.
In comparison to her BG3 portrayal, my first impression was she looks incredibly old. Now as far as I'm aware we've never been given a canon age for Viconia but we do know she was around for House DeVir being defeated by the Do'Urden house so she has to be at least 100 years old by the time of BG1... but her character level is between 2 and 6 (depending on the party's XP) so a relatively inexperienced cleric. With that in mind I definitely assumed she was on the younger side (maybe 200-300?). Either way 5e elves can live between 750 to 1000 years although there are instances in the Forgotten Realms books of drow living to over 2000. Now tack on the additional 120 years for BG3 in my mind it would definitely put her in the middle aged category but not necessarily anywhere near the end of her life. Critically she would be aging much slower than Jaheria but with those wrinkles she looks WAY older than her. I honestly feel cheated of an interaction between the two about how hagged and old Jaheria looks in comparison to herself.
In terms of her outfit, although initially she wears the Sharite mask and hooded outfit, which is good for concealing her identity, we eventually end up with Viconia in a spider adorned dress. This seems like a strange choice given the spider motif when she literally stopped worshipping Lloth for Shar - maybe she's being ironic? The lack of armour,when she's a cleric that knows there's a good chance she's about to have a fight seems kind of stupid. If you do choose to fight her, she then looks entirely comical in her light dress accompanied by an enormous oversized shield and mace.
For me though this really identifies her design problem: her leather armour was a critical part of her original design. Given that we only see portrait style headshots of BG characters, the decision not to include her leather corset with the three straps and the head band is really what makes her unrecognisable. It would be like removing Minsc's head tattoo or Jaheria's braids or Sarevok's armour (which even with all the problems I talked about in my post, at least he got to keep that).
My hope is that some enterprising modder out there makes a more BG2 accurate version of her in future. Larian, please give my lady her leather armour back or maybe even a justicar outfit!
3. Ignores her BG1/2 alignment, motivations and twists her original epilogue.
Now I do appreciate BG3 deliberately assumes that the events of BG1/BG2 are a little bit fluid, which Jaheria confirms this when she talks about the bards that tell stories of her slaying gods or bedding them depending on which one you listen to. But the game goes onto confirm certain events in Viconia's history that don't really make sense:
A.) The game confirms that Viconia did travel with the Bhaalspawn but not for the entirety of the game. Minsc informs you that after trying to dissect Boo she was expelled from the group. I have to admit this story didn't gel with me at all because it implies Viconia is some sort of chaotic evil idiot (reminder: Viconia is neutral evil with a 16 INT score and 18 WIS score in BG2) who would deliberately provoke a giant raging berserker man by murdering his beloved pet. Like that's the sort of thing I could see Xzar (who is completely and utterly mad) doing but not Viconia. What benefit would she get out of it? Maybe it would be a good tribute for Shar but that would be a pretty short term benefit. In fact in BG2 Viconia offers begrudging respect to Minsc for his effectiveness in battle, she knows he's powerful and she wants to be on the right side of that. Minsc for his part does what he does with many of the female characters, particularly in BG2 and makes her a proxy substitute for Dynaheir offering to protect her. That's not to say she won't insult people (Aerie and Jaheria or characters who she perceives as weak often get the brunt of it) but she's generally smart enough to stay out of an actual fight. Important to note that in any of NPC conflicts that end in a fight in BG1/2 (e.g. Kivan, Ajantis, Keldorn) it's never Viconia that's starts the fight.
B.) The Waterdeep cult.
In Viconia's epilogue, which you only get if you kept her for the end of Throne of Bhaal and you didn't romance her, Viconia goes on to do a few things which you can see below (obviously massive spoilers for BG2) :
So it feels like Larian has taken the first part of this ending but nothing else, which really leaves a lot of questions. We know Shar isn't entirely happy with Viconia based on her diary entries so why is Shar still giving powers to a woman that basically killed a whole bunch of her followers? Why is Viconia still working for a goddess that hates her? Why is she so accepting of Shar's plot to groom Shadowheart as her replacement? Why on earth hasn't Viconia got the fuck out of dodge, which is pretty much what she has been shown to do in the past? And this comes neatly onto my next point.
4. Viconia is just a plot device for Shadowheart.
I love Shadowheart and I love her arc but honestly Viconia being the Mother Superior just felt like a way of inserting her into the game in a way that didn't really fit especially when Viconia's diaries in BG3 show that she knows that Shar intends for Shadowheart to essentially replace her as one of her prominent followers/chosen. The whole plot ignores two critical points about Viconia and her backstory:
Firstly the reason Viconia left the Underdark in the first place was because she refused to sacrifice a child to Lloth and Lloth turning her brother into a drider after he saved her from being sacrificed. Now Viconia is many things, she's self serving, cruel and dedicated to her own survival at the expense of anything and anyone else (quintessential neutral evil through and through) but at the same time she threw away her position, caused the downfall of her house and got most of her family murdered to save a child. You're telling me she would then willingly go along with Shar's plan to deliberate plan to kidnap and repeatedly torture a child for YEARS whilst also training said child to replace her? My girl doesn't have many lines in the sand but harming children definitely seems like one of them. I actually wandered whether Shadowheart not liking to harm children / prefers saving them is not just about her being a secret Selunite but also a potential a hint of Viconia's influence.
Secondly, that plot seems to ignores Viconia's other primary driver, which is to survive: it's why she leaves the Underdark, it's why she travels with the Bhaalspawn, it's why she worships Shar and it's why she murders an entire cabal of Shar's followers after one person betrayed her. Now if we ignore that she has qualms about children, you're telling me that she would instead essentially train her replacement to be an amazing cleric who is 99% likely to murder her? I'm pretty sure Viconia would have tried to kill Shadowheart way before her becoming a justicar or simply skipped town as she has done before.
The alternative?
Personally I would have liked to have seen Viconia ultimately involved in a plot to overthrow the Mother Superior or maybe doing something even crazier like going after Shar herself out of revenge following her fall from grace after the events of the Waterdeep cult. Maybe she works with the Absolute to get her revenge and keep her divine powers - hell who better to help Ketheric with the Nightsong in Shar's temple then an ex priestess of Shar?
If not the Absolute then Shar's got plenty of enemies and Viconia has converted before. Maybe she could have joined the team to achieve a particular goal while giving fans of the original series the opportunity to have one of the original evil characters to join the crew. I would have loved to see the contrast with Minthara who is still fairly fresh from leaving drow society and a complete blunt instrument compared to Viconia's more subtle ways. Maybe Viconia would take the paladin under her wing, maybe introduce her to a new patron god (something I don't think is ever explained is how Minthara still retains her divine powers given neither Lloth or the Absolute are fueling them anymore). Shevarash the elven god of revenge, would be a fantastic fit for both of their back stories (which would also be a nice little throw back to Viconia's heated / sometimes fatal arguments with Kivan in BG1) presuming that Viconia could get over her disdain for the elven pantheon by that point in the timeline. The fireworks with Jaheria of course would be grand while Minsc I feel would be very conflicted given his mind's tendancy, as noted above, to sub in any female magic user as Dynaheir.
#baldur's gate#baldur's gate 3#baldur's gate 2 spoilers#baldur's gate 3 spoilers#viconia#viconia devir#discourse#spoilers
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Is there any part of baldur's gate 3 that you dislike? I know you enjoy the game, but most fans of the old games I see are very critical and you're one of the few that I've seen that seems to love it.
First of all, this is a very fun question, anon! Thanks 💜
Secondly, you're experiencing illusory correlation when you connect "previous BG fans" to "those that dislike BG3." It's further compounded by the fact that most people only get really loud when they're disappointed/upset, and the people that are happy tend not to post as virulently or constantly about said topic. Millions of people have played BG1/2 and then a good chunk of those folks went on to play BG3, so think about all the people you aren't seeing when you see a post like that.
Anyways, there are things I'm either bleh on, annoyed with, or dislike about BG3. I'm too old to expect perfection.
Some of the things I don't like:
Callbacks to BG1/2 like Sarevok and Viconia, though that is more WotC's fault than Larian's, and this goes double for Abdel Adrian being referenced at all in the game. Those books should have been memory holed.
The uneven nature of all the companions' stories. Some have tons of dialogue, reactivity, and the ability to let the player choose to give the companion the choice of how they handle things, with the player's own choices affecting the companion's decision. Others are in a semi-broken state (Minthara) or feel lacking despite being great characters (Wyll) that deserve those choices.
5E D&D is a bad system down to its bones. Its flaws are openly on display in the game; the only reason that the tactical gameplay feels any good is because Larian is very skilled at crafting memorable, enjoyable encounters and they hacked in a dozen different homebrews and house rules to make the damn thing feel any good. BTW, 2E AD&D was a mess for wildly different reasons and the old real-time w/ pause system is conducive to spamming filler encounters, so it's not as easy as saying "old game better" for me.
The lack of companion banter in Act 3 when compared to the previous acts. Hell, even Act 2 has a fair bit less than Act 1.
The way that some companions feel kinda hollow when you're not actively engaged in their romance. More platonic connection! One of my favorite scenes in the game is the platonic stargazing with Gale. Let me dance with Wyll without it being romantic, let me go on a friendly night on the town with Karlach, let me experience some of these scenes through the lens of friendship. I know that this is probably one of the more time-consuming tasks for the team at large, but it's one that I would love to see some day.
The character creator is lacking in body types, facial structure for various ethnicities, and a truly broad scope of what trans/non-binary bodies can look like. However, I'm incredibly grateful for what we did get and I will take one small step if that means it becomes more and more common in RPGs. I'll fight for more, but I will be happy with what we have in this game.
Is BG3 the bestest, most greatest CRPG of all time? No. Do I love BG3? Yes. Is it my favorite BG game? Ask me that question in ten years.
#hey you can ask me things!#believe it or not I don't think it's the Perfect Game#and tbh most of that platonic stuff is ripe for fanfiction#so even if it doesn't happen we can just... y'know... write it
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since it's come up a couple times, i thought i'd just make a post about it! here we go:
i keep seeing you talk about this xan guy, but who is he?
xan is a potential companion in baldur's gate, the first game in the baldur's gate series. in the vanilla game, he has basic voice lines that play in reaction to commands, other companions, and the locations you're in. in fact, all of his voice lines can be viewed in the "quotes" section on the wiki; that's the extent of the content he has.
wait, i thought he was a full-fledged companion with friendship and romance paths? also, isn't he in baldur's gate 2?
he is, but only with the use of mods!
BG1NPC adds xan's banter, commentary, and romance path to bg1 (alongside a lot of other things, take a look at the readme!)
Xan's friendship path adds xan's friendship path to bg1
Xan BG2 NPC adds xan to bg2, as well as 2 romance paths, a friendship path, and a new soundset
Alternate Xan Soundset for BG2 restores xan's bg1 soundset to him in bg2, because nothing beats the original
if you want to romance him, make sure to play as an elf, unless you're ready for a bit of heartbreak ;( non-elves can romance him for a bit in bg1, but at one point you'll be forced to break it off.
i'm interested in playing the series, but where should i start?
i've broken it down here!
do you have any other mod recs?
i still play with the original (non-ee) games, so a lot of my mods are just widescreen fixes & bug fixes that are already covered in the ee games. but one list i have on hand is glittergear's bg2 mod recs!
why don't you like xan in bg2?
spoilers ahead, but:
i don't agree with his characterization and the execution of his romance paths as a whole
his bonded bg2 romance is worse than his bg1 romance, and intimacy with him almost always involves sex now, when it didn't before
he's been made ridiculously old
he's out of character, and many of his reactions are just odd
i don't agree with his death, and here's more paragraphs why
bonded xan is too ready to serve goddess!charname, when based on past behavior i'd think he would have a firm stance against it
his player-initiated dialogue options are poorly thought out
he was altered to have proficiency in darts instead of slings. darts fucking suck, why would you do this to him
his behavior would hurt radri, a lot
the list goes on
why are you still drawing/writing about him in bg2, then?
i love xan and radri together, i can't just write him out of bg2
😔 i can fix him 😔
but you think xan in bg1 is perfect, right?
not totally, i've always felt like his romance was biased in favor of one personality type
he is SO ace-coded to me, but his author clearly had a different vision for him
there's more, but they're all minor nitpicks compared to my complaints about him in bg2
you've complained a lot about him, so what do you even like about xan??
he's just so ridiculous, in the best ways
he can be snippy and dramatic, but also so kind
i love his romance in bg1
i enjoy his habit of carrying charname for romantic gestures, even though radri is like 200 lbs with light armor, and he's, what, 130 lbs sopping wet? i know, he was probably written with an elven waif of a charname in mind, but it's almost sweeter to think of him going out of his way to make it happen
you keep mentioning radri, but who is she?
my gorion's ward, my bhaalspawn, my charname, my beloved protagonist
she's like the kicked puppy to xan's pathetic kitten
here's an introduction, but honestly, it's easier just to read about them
why do you like the series, but not baldur's gate 3?
baldur's gate 3 has next to nothing to do with the series and should've been named something else
i was disappointed by it when i did play it
there's a sexual overtone over the entirety of the game
i'm tired of romances that put sex first
it's impossible for me to relax and enjoy the game
again, it's a really horny game
i'm just way too ace for it
bg3 overtakes all search results when trying to search for information on bg1 (which, being titled baldur's gate, doesn't get the benefit of a number to set it apart from the other games). sure, filters exist, but that doesn't change the fact that an era of easy information retrieval is over
what do you think about the references to xan in baldur's gate 3?
i want to die
i would rather kill xan myself than let bg3 touch him
it's a small mercy that he wasn't cursed with an actual cameo
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Hey, Fey!!
I hope you're taking care of yourself with the holidays coming up 🧡🖤
We obviously see a lot of your art and love for BG3, but I was wondering if you have any Tavs/Durges that you love? (As in your own characters!)
Or who is your favorite NPC/NPC interaction outside of the companions? 🥰
Lots of love from Ellie!
Hi there!! Thank you, doing alright!! You too!!
I have 1 Tav, named Iiyola! She's in the portrait I painted for my icon. A draconic sorcerer with a few points in rogue. She's shown up in a few of my pieces, and I have like 100k words into a fanfic I may never post about her being childhood friends with Astarion. Halsin is her uncle- she's half Drow half Wood Elf which is a source of great inner turmoil for her spiritually. I'm a huge Frogotten Realms elf nerd so my fanfic about her only has Astarion, Halsin, Minthara, and Shadowheart from the game, and it's exploring each of their relationships with their culture and navigating life as elves who have very different opinions on what that means. And, Iiyola kind of bridging that gap in the party as she really belongs nowhere, not Drow enough for their society, but also too "tainted" to belong in Seldarine elf society. (I personally think that the new D&D lore kind of scoured the intrigue from elf politics so I am writing with more of a Neverwinter Nights/BG1&2 approach.) She's a Vhaeraun worshiper, as her father was a high up cleric within their order, it's a whole thing and I'm rambling now! Her faith is tested when she learns that Halsin is her uncle (to his surprise as well) and she learns some ugly things about her father that really flip her world more upside-down than it already is!
I only make 1 PC for RPGs and that's it (99% of the time), so I've remade Iiyola for my Durge run. I never play evil in RPGs so I'll be doing a resist run for sure.
As far as outside NPCs, I'm not really sure, I do like Gortash a lot. I do think that, unfortunately, both he and Orin seem to have been shafted a bit in the plot pacing. I was so excited to get to see Baldur's Gate again and I was kind of bummed out the upper city was kind of a letdown. I wish I could say Viconia but I really dislike that canon had to be forced on us, because I LOVED Viconia in 1&2 and the canon one just isn't my Viconia. Also wish they'd brought her original VA back and given her her goddamn beauty mark!!!!!!!!!
Kind of a ranty tangent but I also think it's a shame we didn't get to see as many noble houses- I would have liked to have seen Cazador's place actually be a manor, visit Gortash's estate, etc. I loved breaking into noble's houses in the first game. :( I think it's a dreadful missed opportunity that we did not get some kind of super important ball/masquerade/social event a la DA: Inquisition where we get to dance with our LI and do some intrigue that inevitably ends in crazy bloodshed and a battle with limited gear... Oh I am rambling again.
Overall I think the NPCs are all pretty compelling, probably my favorite little nest of NPCs was the Myconid 'village'.
thank you for asking and sorry for rambling!!!
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Top 5 denizens of the Hells (from any setting)
Okay, besides me fawning over Raphael on @archcambion, I felt I should talk about my top five favorite loves of the Hells.
Thank you so much, @dujour13, for letting me info dump!
5. Glasya, the Archdevil of Malbolge (D&D)
The only child of Asmodeus, Glasya has always been in the side lines of D&D since it's inception, a bit of a minor player with she severing as a consort for an edition or two for Mammon. In late 2e and in 3.Xe, Glasya became such a political issue for Asmodeus, he bumped her to Archdevil to give her more work and to use in political maneuvering. Glasya still is the most chaotic of the Archdevils, focusing on her criminal empire within the Hells, and befriending her peer Fierna in a manner that suggest they were best friends.
4. Enecura, the Queen of Dis (PF)
The concept of Enecura bit me while learning more about the Archdevils in Pathfinder. This moral woman stole immorality from one of the most powerful gods in Pathfinder, got sent to hell, managed to thrive in this setting, and either fell in love or manipulated another demi-deity to fall in love with her. Not only does this woman have ovaries of steel, she and Dispater are a Hades and Persephone romance in disguise without any problematic tropes.
3. Dispater, Lord of Dis (PF)
I liked Dispater when I first read about him in D&D, but became less impressed with 5e lore of making him paranoid and yet easily manipulated. It wasn't so much the sexuality it suggested for Dispater as is making a feared Archdevil a little weak - though most Archdevils in D&D have more obvious flaws. When reading about PF, I liked this depiction of Dispater even more. I could see the bones of D&D's Dispater in the character, built into a logical way with unique details. A fast friend of Asmodeus, loyal and focused on law and order, he willingly fell with his wife to follow his leader. And during that fall, something happened to his wife. And no one knows what. Regardless, it brought out genuine puppy dog eyes from a design that is particularly kinky. His story with his son, the trouble second marriage, and the third marriage is also quite intresting. He might not have the 40 years of backstory as his counterpart, but what he has is amazing.
2. Mephistopheles, Lord of Cania (D&D and PF)
Mephistopheles is the one that got me really interested in DnD planar lore, leading me to Planescape Torment. When I was younger, my first DnD interest began with BG1 and it grew from there with BG2 and then Neverwinter Nights. Mephistopheles was an NPC Villain that caught my attention quicker than the game's intended villain and got me to reading more about him and his comrades. A Starcream with delusions of grandeur that he could almost back up, Mephistopheles was my favorite for a long time with a DnD campaign that brought his attention to me again. It was also around the time I was playing Pathfinder CRPGs, but I didn't get poking into that until he showed up, again, in WotR. Of course, Pathfinder Mephistopheles is very different from DnD Mephistopheles. The incarnation of Hell itself with a deeply loyalty to anyone that advances Hell cause, Mephistopheles beloved by Asmodeus, and Mephistopheles is very much his right hand person. He also has a gorgeous design that does take nods from his 3e depiction.
And oddly, a blend of both depictions with a unique twist of UST make Mephistopheles even more fun.
Asmodeus, Lord of Nessus, God of Indulgence (D&D)
Although I find myself favoring the Pathfinder takes of the Archdevils, this doesn't hold true to Asmodeus. Pathfinder Asmodeus is great, but the only advantage he might have over his D&D counterpart was always being a god, and yet he lacks the same prestige as D&D Asmodeus for that role. D&D Asmodeus has been apart of the brand since it's inception as the ruler of Hell through all the five editions, with the 2nd edition only using bare descriptions to indicate who he was when you couldn't use devils or demons in D&D. He has several origin stories inspired from Christianity and Zoroastrianism and he's gone through several crises, always rising on the top. I think that's why I love him a bit more than his counterpart. Asmodeus has scraped and crawled from being a devil to becoming a greater Deity if only due to 4e deciding it was about fucking time he become one. He's earned this status, you've seen how he's earned it, and while how they cement his godhood in Forgotten Realms is super dumb, he should be a God - he who is more crafty and chaotic than anyone realizes.
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A fanartist answered an ask about this, so of course I'm wondering about Kass' version of things :
Did Kass romance anyone? If not, did anyone try to court her? Or was her heart unreachable and beating against the gold edged palm of an archduke?
(I may also be futzing around my own hc for Lys and want other people's pov, for science lol)
She didn't romance anyone! It was a combination of factors, in and out of universe. Number one, I'm a wee bit obsessive about planning out my canon ahead of time, I've done it in multiple fandoms for years, I sit down and go 'okay so this OC is responsible for X and romances Y, and this OC is responsible for Z and romances V, and this OC-" and so on and so on. I originally did not have a Dark Urge, I thought the concept of it was bleak and we'd already had the bhaalspawn saga with BG1 and 2 and I wasn't sure what the appeal was
WELL. I was wrong. Because now I've got two of the bastards lol
Kass was always planned to be an Ever Alone for the tragedy of it all, but then that just felt right when I've played her too? It really is just her though, because Heron has no problem being shippable. I think if anyone was going to appeal to her it might have been Minthara, but even then...
She likes sex though. She has plenty of sex all the way up to Act 3, because the Urge has that sense of an insatiable itch that an orgasm sort of fixes, and violence sort of fixes, and so there were plenty of background NPCs that she tackled to the ground and then promptly felt uncomfortable around once she'd fucked them (they usually felt way more uncomfortable than her, she can be a Bit Much after all)
Love didn't even cross her mind until she found the Prayer for Forgiveness and felt Things™ and even then it wasn't love again for some time and it wasn't enough to save them until it was
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have u ever shared the lore of torlynn's guardian/dream visitor? :O
i haven't yet! at least not directly—i have posted about the oc she looks like: torlynn's previous girlfriend, a human storm sorcerer/oath of the ancients paladin named thalia adrian, who died in terrible circumstances about a century ago. specifically, she's the version of thalia that torlynn first met. when she died, she was about 40 human years old.
those terrible circumstances happen to be extremely plot relevant! anyway, like many people, i always headcanon the guardian as someone significant in tav's life, either someone who previously guided them and/or haunts them. and thalia—and those terrible, plot-relevant circumstances of her death—haunt torlynn so so so much! especially awhen the party enters the shadowlands at the beginning of act 2 . eyes emoji.
something else important: in addition to all the cool things above, thalia is also a bhaalspawn. if you know bg1/bg2 lore and raised your eyebrows at thalia's last name, you are very correct: she's actually gorion's ward, the protagonist of the first two games. (i haven't gotten a chance to play them yet, so all my info is from various wikis. i definitely plan to, though!)
the full torlynn/thalia story has expanded into many rooms in my mind palace, so i'll put the rest under a read more for anyone interested haha.
HISTORY:
a century and a half before the events of bg3, torlynn was a high harper based in the sword coast. before that, she served the harpers since her early 100's, participating in multiple campaigns/adventure parties across faerûn for the next three centuries. a century and a half before the events of bg3, torlynn was a harper before she was anything or anyone else, wholly dedicated to the cause. she also took her leadership role very seriously and gave up most personal relationships as a result, even amongst fellow harpers. she also became more careful than the unreserved, reckless, hotheaded person she'd been in youth.
more important context: torlynn's mom was a powerful necromancer and well-known in her academic circles. back in the day, she'd do all sorts of necromantic experiments in the baldur's gate sewers, as so much weird shit happens there. including bhaalist cults every few centuries or so. when torlynn was still in school, her mom went missing down there and absolutely everyone stonewalled her when she tried to find out why, including her dad (shareholder at sorcerous sundries) and the flaming fist (who she briefly joinde after graduating wizard school). she eventually determines that bhaalists were involved, but never found any trace of her mom.
SO when sarevok causes problems on purpose in baldur's gate, torlynn is right in the thick of it for both harper reasons and personal reasons, pulled to the home that hadn't been home in a very, very long time. (frankly unsure if this counters bg1 canon but this is also my mind palace <3). and then she meets thalia: bright, kind, reckless, very chaotically good, and a bhaalspawn. and a sorcerer, which simply doesn't help matters regardless of how torlynn is a wizard who cannot stand the company of other wizards. (parents made her go to wizard school).
RELATIONSHIP:
they ummmm do not hit off right away. although torlynn very much believes in the harper tenets of Free Will and Liberty Over Systems, she's also a big fan of rules and organization and systems that facilitate free will. and, of course, breaking rules and systems that are stupid and don't make sense. (this all very wizard of her, but don't tell her that) (thalia tells her that, repeatedly). she also doesn't trust thalia's dark urge for very valid reasons. this all manifests in clashes that annoy everyone in the general vicinity. but this is a classic enemies-to-lovers, babey! they experience trials and tribulations, defeat thalia's loser brother, and fall very hard for each other.
their relationship is always a bit tumultous, as they don't stop clashing about the fundamentals. bhaal is also determined to make thalia succomb to her urge, meaning her bhaalspawn dreams get a lot worse around torlynn. but these bitches love each other! they're mutually obsessed! lesbian devotion > your shitty dad, every time. their differences are ultimately complements; torlynn grounds thalia, helping her perceive things like fantasy spreadsheets and consequences for your actions, while thalia helps torlynn find that balance between her Great Harper Responsibilities and like, having fun lmao. experiencing life to its fullest extent after spending her own protecting others. [insert a 50k relationship development fic here].
LET'S JUMP 20 YEARS:
in that time, thalia has also joined the harpers, albeit in a less formal capacity. she and torlynn spend half those years together and half apart as thalia 1) avoids murdering her, and 2) searches for other bhaalspawn across the realm, determined to save them from their urge. (she rarely succeeds. according to the wiki page for gorion's ward, something that sets gorion's ward apart from other bhaalspawn was their supportive upbringing, which very few have). at some point, they hear about a weird situation brewing beyond the mountain pass. some guy named ketheric is causing problems on purpose and shar is involved. can't be good.
and man, you know most of what happens next. the harpers join forces with the druids from the grove and together they defeat ketheric and his dark justiciars. in this version of the story, however, they almost lose. their forces have dwindled into nothing and help isn't on the way and torlynn's best ranger flew off the fucking handle and started torturing enemy scouts. one night, huddled under a tent, shar's darkness already clinging to every corner, thalia brings up a strategy they haven't considered. dire to be sure, but don't these people deserve every dire strategy we have left to give? aren't you always saying that to win, we must sometimes be willing to lose? torlynn says Under No Circumstances Are You Allowed to Do That. i will make sure you never have to do that.
thalia bristles; she hates when torlynn pulls rank. (when anyone pulls any type of rank). she doesn't say anything else because she doesn't want to get mean. torlynn is too terrified to say anything and too ashamed of her fear to talk about that either. so they don't talk again, not until that final battle when another fucking shadow squadron crests over the field and thalia Does Just That.
that being: assume her slayer form, succombing to the very urge she dedicated her entire life to fighting. and because the slayer's only motivation is Kill Everyone, there's only one way to stop her from turning on the harpers and the druids after the dark justiciars are all dead and gone. and torlynn makes sure she's the one to stop her. she owes that end to her. she wants to hold her one more time, even if what she's holding is a very scary creature with lots of pointy limbs.
AFTERMATH:
when the war is officially over, torlynn is not well. like fundamentally just had her belief in anything shaken and stirred and then exploded and also exploded again. she's dedicated her life to this cause and now the lands are cursed and thalia is dead, turned into the monster she hated. perhaps her mother was right about everything turning to rot, so you may as well use that rot to your own ends. except torlynn is bad at rotting, so she goes to bother her mother's god about getting her girlfriend back. but, well, thalia isn't with myrkul. she's with bhaal. and he's noooot letting her go so easily.
that's when torlynn loses that last grip on her previous life. she deserts the harpers, throws herself into necromantic research, and decides she's going to rescue thalia from bhaal if it's the last thing she does. she spends about 75 years doing this. and then something too complicated for this already too-long post happens that causes her to abandon this mission. winds up teaching 10-year-olds how to conjure ice at her old school in waterdeep, still adrift and bitter and mostly unwell. that's roughly her status quo until the nautiloid scoops her up from the road between waterdeep and baldur's gate.
CONCLUSION:
anyway! the emperor sees this big ball of noxious grief in torlynn's mind and is like Oh fuck yes a little bowl of seeds for me (perfect circumstances to manipulate the scary, highly-competent elf lady). he would have succeeded but torlynn has the power of friendship and gay sex with karlach on her side.
HEY, THEY KIND OF LOOK LIKE TALDER?
you got me there! torlynn kind of started out as an alder uber; i wanted to make an older lady oc who was both a magic user and some kind of military commander. besides their penchant for repression and the way grief is a huge part of their stories, torlynn wound up pretty different overall! thalia shares some physical traits with tally, but she's also taken a life of her own since that initial Haha Wouldn't It Be Funny If brainstorm. if anyone's interested i'm very happy to elaborate, but this is already too long LMAO. p.s. if you read the whole thing i love you
#baldur's gate 3#bg3#tav bg3#bg3 tav#torlynn alderstar#yell.txt#fashionablyfyrdraaca#ask#thank you so much for asking!! apologies for writing a wiki article!!!
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BG3 introspection bit
This one isn't edgy or funny. I just feel like sharing, prompted by seeing how, indeed, BG3 is one of the greatest if not THE greatest pieces of entertainment we've got in a long while.
But I know for so many people it turned out to be much more than just that. That includes me.
To make a long story short, I've been living a full world away from my loved ones for almost a decade, in a place that is particularly hostile towards me. I'm here out of necessity and choice, since my other option happens to be worse. It's been shockingly lonely, until I grew used to the isolation. Still, I made do. I make do.
Around a few years back, and especially last year, things took a turn for the much worse. I've spiraled into a very, very dark place, which in turn isolated me even more from other people - but also from myself.
Being so far away from familiarity and the things I love worn me down, and disconnected from who I am and what I enjoy. To the point I effectively stayed in a limbo, frozen in time, empty, for the past years. It's been way more scary than when I was obviously and loudly sad or depressed, because at least then I had energy to react in some way.
As an artist by profession and by passion, it was even more concerning that I could not create ANYTHING - words, images, even concepts. My mind had been simply silent, dead. I quite literally spent the last 3-4 years just existing, going to my job like a mindless clockwork because otherwise I wouldn't be able to make rent and end up getting deported. I knew I was utterly and completely lost, and had no idea what I could grab onto to pull me out. It was as if I couldn't move - I did not really wanted to, somehow.
It happens to everyone, I think, that sometimes a seemingly random thing that you engage with unexpectedly becomes a sort of lifeline. It happened to me once before, during a complicated part of my teens. And now it seemed to have happened again because I decided to play Baldur's Gate 3.
I mentioned before, I am a bit older and have played BG1 and BG2, and also DnD and the like. I've always been the nerdy artsy type, and it had always fueled my imagination and gave me energy to keep creating, keep moving, searching, growing.
It was really a struck of luck that I heard the news that BG3 was a thing. I was so isolated I did not engage with any piece of media anymore - I watched no news, no movies, no series, read no books. When I think about it, it's really scary how I felt absolutely nothing, how truly empty of any will to live I was.
But it's been wild for a while now. I happened to be on 'vacation' when BG3 got released, and I was sucked into it like I was desperate. And I probably was. I needed anything to take me away from where I was, who (or the lack of) I had become. The game did just that. It's not a coincidence I put 750+ hours in it. I could not stand looking at my own circumstances and somehow I managed to finally escape anywhere else.
While I recognize I went to the opposite extreme of (problematic) engagement, I also saw how my mind seeemed to switch on again after a while - as if I was reminded of how it used to be.
Ideas, cohesive thoughts, images, the unavoidable urge to move, to create something - all these things that made me ME started to come back.
I remembered how much I enjoyed fantasy, fiction, having ideas, organizing, planning, making things come true - how much just marking a paper with a pencil brings me joy. How my own mind can be rich and exciting, and how I have the skills to translate those impulses into reality. And that is what made me, all my life.
It's hard to explain how I feel after 4 years not creating a single thing, having no impulse or creative idea and watching life pass in a haze, now I feel like I'm finally reconecting to something precious. My doctor even pointed it out, how it seems I'm finally waking up after years, coming out of whatever dark hole I've been in.
While it's been a short while, I'm very aware this is essentially a hyperfixation, but for someone who (even though I tried) could not feel anything towards anything for so long, this seems like a blessing. And I'm doing my best to make a stair out of it - use the momentum to branch out into other things I know I need and miss, the other things that have always been part of my life that I'd let go of.
I'm probably not the only one who clicked with this game, and it somehow pulled us out of strange, scary places. Even though it's a lot of projection on our part, people in such situations need something they relate to in order to project onto, to grab to float. Not everything works, it must be something special to the person at the right time. Lucky me that Baldur's Gate 3 happened when it did, the way it did, and that I was where I was.
I'm really, truly happy I stumbled onto the news of the game, for whatever reason took action to actually buy it, open and play it.
When I did, I had no idea it would be the lifeline I'd grab onto.
But it's been, and it meant so much to me.
That's all of my sad introspective blurb. I have no way of explaining how thankful I feel to everyone who put this game together. While it wasn't the intention of the creators, BG3 gave me the push I so desperately needed and that nothing else had managed to.
I'd still be lost in a very dark place without it.
:')
#baldur's gate 3#bg3#personal#tw mental health#tw depression#serious shit#introspection#kinda random#very raw#blurb
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Impressions of BG3 so far:
The good: All the character writing seems fantastic thus far! It seems to have taken cues from the original games, but A LOT of how it's structures is very DA:O related. There is one character who thus far is TOO DA related, but we'll see where it goes.
The Bad: The game is HARD. That's not a bad thing, but it is for my puny brain as a girl who always tried to play BG1 and really liked it but never could beat it no matter how much I knew AD&D. I started off with custom difficulty so I had a bit of help but balanced it out, but I've had to turn down all the sliders because I keep hitting brick walls. I've generally been avoiding save scumming for everything but companion stuff, but one encounter in particular was so difficult I gave up entirely and just worked until I got a bluff roll and a sleight of hand roll right.
The FANTASTIC: I am AGONIZING over the main quest. Everyone pulling me in every direction, I have no idea what's real and what's not. I get the feeling the Creche story is supposed to be done way later than I'm doing it, but I'm romancing Lae'zel and didn't want to wait. Doing it this early is so scary because I understand so little about what's going on around me. I was afraid I knew too much about the game because of Tumblr, but I know NOTHING and that's EXHILARATING.
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In your post about Durge's sudden normality you mentioned implied SA in the tags; would you mind elaborating on that? I don't remember seeing any implications like that, but I know I missed a lot of details in my first run. (Obviously if you would mind feel free to ignore this.)
Naturally this is going under a cut for discussion of rape, sexual exploitation and incest:
Some of it is mostly me reading into things and frowning, but Bhaal being able to violate Durge sexually and the intent of sexual exploitation (regardless of Durge's will) is canon and it does lend credence to the idea.
Durge is obligated to breed, and Bhaal can and will force them to; the original version of the feral ending in the dialogue files involves him forcing them into a state of sexual hyperarousal and forcing them to mate with a gnoll, in the same way he can force the urge to slay on them. Bhaal's intention there is to see if he can breed more monstrous Bhaalspawn.
Some of the dialogue options are just Durge screaming in horror.
Durge has no memory of the actual rape; Bhaal forces them to spend the entire time thinking about him: "Your memory of last night's act is absent. In the moment of mounting, your mind emptied itself, and you could think only of Bhaal."
And knowing that, when I saw "I love you father. I'm a good [child], a good, good [child]" in the released version I had to go sit down for a bit.
We know that Durge is expected to have kids - it's a mortal sin that they haven't. It's also vague whether they tried or not pre-amnesia; they're described as "failing" not refusing, it could've gone either way. Durge may already have been exploited.
Even if they don't disappoint Bhaal in game, this "duty" remains. It's not just the Tribunal making shit up; Sceleritas is your direct liaison to Bhaal, and he makes this clear to them as Bhaal's Chosen too.
We know that if Durge won't kill then Bhaal will force them to, and we know that he can force them to have sex too. It's entirely possible that Durge's only say in this is to either fuck partners they chose or have them chosen for them (as we all know, Bhaal has zero respect for his kids' bodily autonomy or desires past his use for them, and Bhaal wants more babies.)
At the very least, it doesn't seem to be a major part of Bhaal's plan for Durge yet, so Durge may have dodged this specific form of abuse for now.
Bhaal has also done this to Sarevok, it seems, who would probably have killed himself back in BG1+2 if he could see what would happen to him in his future.
Knowing that Bhaal has no issues inflicting sexual arousal on his own kids, those scriptures you find that explicitly refer to the pleasure he bestows on his followers when they kill as "erotic" unfortunately have little reason not to be applied to Bhaalspawn. It would also explain the necrophilia if Durge has been conditioned to see killing/corpses as sexual.
Not quite the same thing, but the thing where people think Durge fucked the Netherbrain is actually from a remark by Bhaal in the journal update, where he makes a crack that "That slimy thing in the Moonrise called you its fallen star. It was very reverent [...] apparently [you're] good at playing with tentacles."
That's not inherently sexual, but knowing that Bhaal is willing to sexually exploit Durge and that the fandom had already interpreted it as sexual, I did kind of stare at it in horror for a bit.
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All right, back into Hector's playthrough... left off having just gotten Minsc and Boo! I'm so excited. :D
Next priority is to save Florrick, bc I gather that's on a time limit before she gets hanged, and then go after Wyll's dad.
Lots of exciting stuff to do. :D Quick stop at camp first though to make sure that Minsc is getting settled in smoothly.
"Jaheira... Boo is trying his best to explain, but I still do not understand your anger!"
"Do not hide behind your hamster, ranger! You do not understand because you do not *listen*!"
OK, so maybe not completely smoothly. XD
This reads to me as Jaheira having a bit of adrenaline letdown; she's been worried about Minsc since before she even got to the Shadowlands and now she doesn't have to be anymore, and there have been a lot of other backed-up emotions waiting their turn, such as anger for having put himself/her in that position in the first place.
"We were the first to discover the cult. And if you had only waited, we might have marshaled our numbers and--"
"Good does not wait for evil to button up its britches! When it offers buttocks for the smacking, Minsc and Boo greet cheek with hand!"
Good old Minsc. XD
Hector and Co. are just watching this play out and looking sort of bewildered. Hector doesn't say anything yet though. In arguments among the companions he's traveled with longer, he has been willing to step in and take a hand, but I think he sees Jaheira and Minsc's friendship as something he stands a little outside of, and is even rather intimidated by. He's grown very close to the people he travels with, but the idea of a decades long friendship of such depth and shared challenge is outside his experience.
Say nothing.
"This mess falls on *our* heads, Minsc. The city under siege, its people poisoned by the cult - it all might have been avoided if you had just put your feelings aside and *listened*."
Hector tips his head thoughtfully to one side as he listens, and he feels a flash of sympathy for Jaheira. She is angry, yes - but at herself as much as Minsc. There is guilt under the words. She sees the moment of Minsc's capture as a turning point in the whole conflict.
And yet... had things played out as she describes, there is no guarantee things would have gone any better.
[INSIGHT] "Or the trail would have ended there, instead of leading you to Ketheric," he points out quietly. "The Prism. Me."
Jaheira glances sideways at him and scoffs. "I have seen too much to believe destiny has taken our side," she says bitterly. "Blind luck, perhaps. The point remains."
"You meant well, Minsc," she says - more calmly but no less pointedly. "But you exposed the city to harm. You helped the cult spread. And worse, perhaps, than any of this..." She swallows sharply, and her voice cracks almost imperceptibly. "You forced me to leave you behind!"
The emotional subtlety seems a little lost on Minsc, whose eyebrows and shoulders lift in an attitude of abject puzzlement. "But... this is where Minsc falls short of the understanding, Jaheira!" he says earnestly. "What else is a berserker for, if not to charge into danger ahead of his Wychlaran?"
...Oh. :(
Narrator: [HISTORY] The Wychlaran - wise women of Rashemen, each bonded to a berserker bodyguard for life. There is no higher title, nor deeper bond, in all of Rashemaar custom.
OK this is actually kind of sad. :(
In this particular worldstate, Minsc has already had not one but two witches. In BG1, he and Dynaheir were traveling together when Caden initially recruited them, and Minsc was devastated when she was killed at the beginning of BG2. And then, further on through BG2, Minsc eventually asked Aerie if she would be his new Wychlaran, which she accepted, because she is a tremendous sweetheart.
The big question to rationalize out here - given Aerie's kindness, Minsc's loyalty, and the fact that Minsc was one of Caden's best friends - is how Minsc stopped considering Aerie his witch, because Aerie and Caden are both super alive and happy and safe in Faenya-Dail, half a world away.
The only explanation I can conjure up is that we know Minsc definitely continued adventuring after BG2, and despite the narrator's point that a Wychlaran bond is supposed to be for life, I picture Aerie basically releasing him from the pact because she was no longer traveling/in danger particularly and didn't want to hold him back from his adventures by feeling like he had to be around for her. (And, to be honest, probably freeing herself a little as well from feeling like she had to be responsible for him in turn while she was trying to settle down with Caden, raise Quayle, and not think about that sort of nonsense so much anymore.)
Knowing Minsc, this would be a troubling development, because his role as bodyguard to a witch is critical to his identity. So it is not surprising to me that he would latch onto Jaheira as a replacement - she is one of his only remaining close friends, and she is an older, wiser woman with powerful magic.
That said, it's also not surprising to me that she doesn't respond positively to this discovery - she has seen plenty of his relationship with both Dynaheir and Aerie and doesn't want that level of bond with him (especially not if it is going to trigger him to dive headlong into a nest of mindflayers to "protect" her).
"Wychlaran...? Minsc, I am not your witch! You are not my bodyguard! This is not some high lodge of your homeland!"
"Boo agrees you are a queer kind of witch," Minsc says gravely. He still seems more puzzled than castigated by her irritation. In his mind, which operates in simple, isolated truths untouchable by nuance, his loyalty to her is simply not a matter to be questioned. "But this city is a queer place. And Minsc, you may have noticed, is sometimes strange himself."
Minsc pauses, considers in silence for a moment. "The titles matter not," he finally agrees after a little while. "Only this - when Minsc does as Minsc does and charges in to make a mess, Jaheira does as Jaheira does and finds a way to save us all anyway!"
Hector can't help a slight grin in spite of himself. He doesn't blame Jaheira for her irritation, and he shares her worries for the battle that lies ahead. But Minsc's greatest crime here seems to be loyalty heedless of consequence, and there are far worse failings to have.
"Aw, that's actually kind of sweet," he says; his lips twitch as Jaheira shoots him an exasperated glare.
"Ugh," she mumbles. "I fight alongside fools."
Minsc grins broadly, bouncing up and down on the balls of his feet. "You hear that, Boo? We fight alongside a Wychlaran again!"
"I am your *friend*, ranger. I am not your witch!" Jaheira snaps. "There will be no ointments, or healing balms!"
Minsc's face twists with perplexed regret. "Not even for Boo?"
Hee. This is absolutely meant as a throwback to this banter with Aerie in BG2, and I love it.
I was definitely wondering previously if Minsc was considering Jaheira his new witch, so that confirms it. Poor guy. :( He just wants someone to be loyal to - as we all do, I suppose.
Jaheira is clearly not comfortable with it, though. She is, as we know, a person who keeps her own cards very close to the chest emotionally; a bond that deep and permanent is not something she would give easily, and certainly not without some Serious Discussion in advance. (To be honest this reads more like her being bothered by him just assuming it and using it as his rationale for acting irresponsibly; I could see a scenario where, had Minsc asked her the way he asked Aerie, she might have been more amenable.)
Maybe Shadowheart would be interested in a berserker bodyguard, Minsc. You should ask.
#bjk plays baldur's gate 3#hector carlisle#miiiiiinsc <3#caden of candlekeep#some throwback thoughts here
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Bhaal's errant progeny and BG3.
Hey all, just some witterings from me that I really wanted to post about a particular encounter because it just super irked me. This post contains spoilers for Act 3 and specifically the serial murders quest.
My overall view is that most of the returning cast from the original BGs have been treated fairly respectfully and consistent with their character arcs in BG1/2 however, there is one unfortunately that I just don't like and that's Sarevok. Yep he's back for a brief encounter where he's revealed to Orin's granddaddy and he's going to smack your butt for funsies. Now while I enjoyed the fight itself the overall conversation / plot points were kind of disappointing for the following reasons:
1.) No Kevin Michael Richardson. Given the guy recently starred in Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear and is a fairly prolific voice actor I have no idea why they didn't ask him to do this role and given his distinctive voice, it's really noticeable. I appreciate with the other returning characters haven't got their original VAs either but I think Jaheria and Minsc's VAs do a good impression of originals and in some ways can hide behind the accents of the characters.
2.) Ignores the impact of Imoen's soul. It's referenced in the conversation that the fairest Bhaalspawn resurrected him so that implies that BG3 assumes it was Imoen who gave a bit of their soul to revive him in Throne of Bhaal. Now there were a few conversations that touched upon the fact that Sarevok was actually mildly influenced by this (he has cravings for sweet things and other strange things etc.). I'm not saying that this would have completely turned him overnight into a good guy but his re-embracing of Bhaal seems contrary to this.
3.) Inconsistent with conversations with Sarevok in BG1/Throne of Bhaal. In my view, the game is fairly clear that Sarevok's goal was never to serve the Lord of Murder but to become him. Furthermore, in TOB he actually seems pretty accepting of the fact that he failed to achieve that and is almost regretful in places, particularly in relation to Tamoko's fate. Why has he gone back to serve the Lord of Murder no less in BG3 when he wasn't really a true believer in the first place.
4.) Inconsistent with Sarevok's epilogue at the end of Throne of Bhaal. Sarevok's arc in TOB revolved around the nature versus nurture argument. One of the big challenges the Bhaalspawn faces is the revelation that Gorion had the opportunity to take either you or Sarevok and it was pure luck that you were chosen instead of him. The question for the Bhaalspawn is: would you have turned out exactly the same as Sarevok had you not lived in the relative safety of Candlekeep? Sarevok is given an opportunity to do things differently at the end of TOB. His epilogue notes that he never settled in one place for too long, routing an army of orcs before he conquered an entire city by himself only to then mysteriously vanish. The epilogue concludes that he actually returned to Kara-Tur to bury Tamoko and never returned, which ultimately suggests that Sarevok is a changed man at the end of TOB.
So yeah it seemed really lazy to me that he's just back as another mook of Bhaal for you to mow down. Now I've been playing a fairly neutral drow wizard who turned down the offer of becoming an assassin of Bhaal so maybe this comes across better if you have more time to talk to him but yeah was left feeling a bit sad by how he ended up in BG3.
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as someone who didn't mind shadowheart's ending but wasn't thrilled by it either I'm curious what your thoughts are on how it should've gone?
the problem i have with her quest isn't so much the ending as it is the establishing — or rather, in this case, the lack of establishing the game does to set her story up, not to mention some REALLY strange story decisions.
i've known about shadowheart being an unwilling follower of shar for a few months before, and i used to complain about the fact that it took away a lot of agency from her character (and selfishly, i wanted her to be someone who could see the value in shar's teachings in order to bring a bit of moral complexity to it, but the game is very adamant on beating it into your head that 'shar bad and everyone who follows her is bad too', which might be a symptom of dnd-isms but idk i wanted it to be different :/)
though in truth now, i think my main issue with her quest is the sheer... gratuitousness of it. it's kind of obvious once you have her reject shar that this is the way the writers explicitly intended for her quest to end, and they achieve this effect by having viconia be actually genuinely just the worst fucking person alive, and not even in the cool way that i enjoy for most villains. it's likely this is a holdover from how viconia might've acted in bg1-2, i wouldn't know because i haven't played, but when i say it's gratuitous, it's... Bad? shadowheart being forced to torture her own parents (to death, in the original script!) is such a cheap way of creating conflict towards her and the church, when the original conflict could've just ended at the fact that they Literally Kidnapped her and gave her false memories. that would've been enough! anything else past that is just a Bit Too Much!
otherwise, i kind of hoped they would've leaned into the religious fanaticism aspect. but i think that would've made her arc lean a bit too close to lae'zels, who i really fucking like (like seriously, i think lae'zel is unironically the best written character in the game even if she's not my favourite). shadowheart being betrayed by shar rather than Villain Kidnapped and having to do personal ruminations on why she ever followed shar to begin with would've been neat, but again: leans kind of too close to lae'zels arc, so... whatever, i guess. it is what it is.
things i liked about the quest: being able to talk to shar directly, shadowheart's internal conflict with the nightsong, jennifer english's fantastic voice directing holy fuck
things that could've improved the quest, if the story has to remain the same: remove the parent torture, but you could keep the quest to find her parents if you really wanted. i would've preferred if they weren't kept in sharran torture (because why did they do that for 10+ years give it up bro omfg), rather just living in baldur's gate coping with the loss of their daughter. if you kept shadowheart as a dark justiciar, you could have them reject her, which gives shadowheart a small regret to cling to, or perhaps she could finally decide to cut that part of her life off once and for all. WHY WAS SHADOWHEART IN SPECIFIC CHOSEN. if it was random, just say that. do more work to establish for players who are unfamiliar with forgotten realms that shar is petty enough to do something as cruel as torture random children. it's not really beaten into your head unless you choose to kill the nightsong, which most people don't do because shadowheart herself doesn't want to do it!
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I've been considering playing Baldur's Gate because of you. Do you recommend it What is a good order to play the games in??
absolutely i recommend it!
first off, it's important to know that bg1 & bg2 are their own story, and bg3 is practically separate from them. bg3 is set a century after the events of bg1/bg2, and just has a few character cameos and references from bg1/bg2 (though from what i've heard some of the cameos aren't very good interpretations of the original characters). bg3 doesn't enhance the bg1/bg2 story in any way, and knowledge of bg1/bg2 doesn't matter when playing bg3.
i'd suggest starting with bg3 if you:
are used to modern rpg games, and 3d visuals are particularly important to you
know you don't/won't like infinity engine games (for a spoiler-free preview, look up walkthroughs of icewind dale 1 or 2 and watch a couple minutes of travel, dialogue, and combat gameplay)
i'd suggest starting with bg1/bg2 if you:
don't have a strong preference for starting with bg3 instead
enjoy the potential for mods to expand the game--not just in terms of gameplay, but in story/quest additions and companions, too
are interested in knowing the story that i'm drawing all my fanart of
have a limited budget (you can get these games for very cheap, they frequently go on sale)
if you want to start with bg3, you're all set! go ahead and get started. if you want to start with bg1/bg2, i have a bit more to add:
if you've looked into buying these games, you may have noticed that there's bg1/bg2, and then there's bgee/bg2ee (ee meaning "enhanced edition"). there's also a new dlc that's ee-only. so here's the original playing order:
baldur's gate (bg1)
baldur's gate: tales of the sword coast (tosc): bg1 expansion, adds new side quests and areas to explore during bg1
baldur's gate ii: shadows of amn (bg2, sometimes abbreviated soa to distinguish from tob below)
baldur's gate ii: throne of bhaal (tob): bg2 expansion, directly continues the story from soa and officially ends the series
and here's the enhanced edition order:
baldur's gate: enhanced edition (bgee): contains bg1 and tosc
baldur's gate: seige of dragonspear (sod): bg1 expansion released in 2016 to bridge the gap between bg1 and bg2 (i haven't played it yet, but if you're just testing out the series i'd say don't bother getting it yet, it was released 15 years after the story concluded so how necessary can it really be)
baldur's gate ii: enhanced edition (bg2ee): contains soa and tob
the enhanced edition also adds 4 new companions, an arena side adventure, and overall provides a lot of fixes/improvements/updates on the original games. obviously, considering all these additions and the ee mods that have come out since the ee series release, the ee series is where you should start.
side note--if you buy the ee series on gog (maybe on steam too, but i've only checked it on gog) you'll actually get downloads for the original, non-ee games as well. if you enjoy playing old games for the feeling of time-traveling into the past a bit, and you have the patience to fuss around with troubleshooting and mods, they're a perfectly fine place to start as well! (i personally am still playing the non-ee trilogy even now, but that's for a whole mix of reasons, including that i like using the physical cd's i bought them on lmao)
now finally, if you got this far and are thinking "okay, i'm cautiously interested in bg1/bg2, but which one of the two should i start with???"
start with bg2 if you:
just want to jump in and see what all the fuss is about
don't care about having context in the beginning (you'll gain some context as you play, though not all)
want vampires, technology, and more sewers in your d&d experience
prefer a story with darker tones and a lot of driving urgency
start with bg1 if you:
like starting at the beginning to have context for everything that happens
want a standard, classic adventure with camps, forests, and bustling cities
don't need the plot to engage you if your companions are there with conversations, commentary, and banter
are willing to install at least one mod, BG1NPC
i found bg1 to be kind of a slog to get through on my very first playthrough, but adding in character interactions via BG1NPC really livened the game up for me and made it my favorite game out of the series. (imo this works best if you're willing to do a romance though, bc unfortunately romanced companions tend to get the most interactions & care put into their conversations.)
you don't strictly need BG1NPC on bgee bc the ee adds those aforementioned companions who do have conversations with you, but iirc they don't talk as much or provide as many opportunities for interaction as some of the modded companions do. (for context, in the original bg1, companions don't talk to you or comment on events at all; that only became a thing in bg2.) playing bgee without BG1NPC means you'll have to get at least 1 of the 3 ee companions to hear any conversations at all.
anyway, hopefully this wasn't too long or confusing. i hope you try the games out!
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