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nightswatchdisbandmentera · 10 months

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Thinking about poor, doomed Young Griff and how it’s not even important if he is or isn’t Rhaegar’s real son. Because what makes him a fake goes beyond blood - it’s really down to intent and experience. He’s a poor rich man’s Aegon V, but like without the organic hero’s journey.

He’s a lab experiment pretty much. However well intentioned he is, there isn’t much indication that his journey has been authentic. Varys and Illyrio are trying to recreate Aegon V with a fake...literally down to the “let’s hide his hair” scheme. They even gave the boy Aegon’s freaking name (it’s a king’s name after all so I can’t blame them). But they missed like the biggest, most important lesson of all. Aegon V CHOSE to go out. HE made himself, no one else did. His journey was organic as it was derived out of his own autonomous decisions, not manufactured down to the smallest detail (does YG really know what it means to starve and be homeless and hunted?). And there was no promise of a reward (I.e., kingship). Egg didn’t know that he’d be king and even after his dad rose to the throne, there were a ton of people ahead of him. FFS he’s called Aegon the Unlikely. Bro just woke up one day and was like “ay wouldn’t it be nice to actually experience this realm from the perspective of a disenfranchised person?”

Meanwhile, our poor Young Griff is being made to go through all this with the expectation that it’s all going to pay off when he becomes king. BUT (big but!), who’s to say that he actually gets it? Like does he really get why he needs to see how this horrible feudalistic society preys on the smallfolk and makes corpses out of them? Wait, does he even know or recognize that the system needs changing? Like did Varys and Illyrio just tell him “people poor” and leave it at that? Why are they poor Young Griff? How did they get there?! Do Varys and Illyrio even get it? Do they understand that Aegon V was a radical change maker?

How hollow is it that it’s not Young Griff making the conscious decision to actually try and see how his subjects live. He’s not making the conscious decision to be a change maker, no matter what Varys and Illyrio say. People in this fandom will talk about how Young Griff will be the perfect king but…perfect for whom? In what way? In a series that critiques this entire system, what about YG screams that he’s going to actually tackle some of the systemic issues that need tackling - the systemic issues that Aegon V tried to tackle after organically going through his own journey?

WELLLLL….isn’t it cool that Jon and Dany are the true heirs to Aegon V’s legacy not because of blood, but because they actually get to the heart of Aegon V’s journey? Say what you want about them but they are radical as it gets (Jon at the Wall and Dany all over Slaver’s Bay). No one manufactured them. No one told them they had to care about people. No one told them they had to do this lab experiment to become king/queen. They actually did their own thing, while themselves being disenfranchised (GRRM identifies both as outsiders). And without the expectation of a reward (like Jon is literally told that his entire life will basically amount to nothing).

And it’s even better that they were unlikely. Young Griff is meant to happen - well someone is pulling the strings to make sure he works. He’s taking the role of someone who was always meant to be king - for Rhaegar’s son was meant to be king. But Jon and Dany are actually following the Aegon V blueprint because they weren’t meant to happen. Jon is a second son who is presumably a bastard with a contentious claim, and Dany is a daughter who was never meant to survive being sold off to slavery let alone rise to queenship. Neither one of them was meant to be on the throne. No one told them to do the things they did. No one took them and placed them in the positions they’re in. They rose to the occasion by themselves and made changes by their own volition - just as it was with Aegon V. And what makes it even better is that just as Aegon V was chosen to be king, so were Jon and Dany (Jon was literally elected into office and basically won over the wildlings while Dany was dubbed “mhysa” because of her actions in Slaver’s Bay).

#asoiaf #jon snow #daenerys targaryen #young griff #aegon v targaryen #varys #illyrio mopatis #valyrianscrolls #my stuff #like they took an imposter and were like let’s recreate this cool king from decades ago #wasn’t it nice how he cared about people and stuff?#how we actually journeyed among the smallfolk and lived among them and directly experienced what it means to be disenfranchised?#yeahhhh let’s do that…..but we won’t do it organically #meanwhile prince in hiding jon snow doesn’t even know he’s a prince in hiding #he gains power and is just like yeah isn’t it cool to be nice to people and give them basic human decency?! let’s do that from now on #and he has zero expectation for a reward - like he KNOWS that the only reward he’ll get is at best being forgotten at worse infamy and death #dany literally sees people being slaves and is like that sucks ☹️ lemme do something about it #and she DID #she freaking did #like I’ve always felt that we’re not going to get on page confirmation that Aegon is a fake #because it’s not about that #it’s about a boy whose been forced to wear boots that don’t fit #so he’s tap dancin and tap dancin until he can’t anymore and dies #Dany doesn’t need to be YG’s undoing #YG all be his own undoing and that’s more interesting from a character level #the lesson isn’t ohh he’s not the hero because he doesn’t have the right blood #y’all I could go on and on like!!!

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gendrie · 1 year

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you are one of my favorite arya accounts and i absolutely love all your metas or just theories especially new ones for twow and bravoos. I get really excited to read them and just think about what could happen next to arya in details. what fan were you before and what made you love arya and asoiaf? i feel like people who are “hardcore” in a way or just very well read and into so many things tend to be fans of Arya’s character. She is so underrated and not maybe the first choice for people to stan and theorize about. But those who do are very creative and I love reading about her so thank you.

thank you!!! this is very very sweet bc i do typically feel like im screaming into the void here. which is fine but sometimes it is nice to know somebody is listening!

there really wasn’t anything that i was a “fan” of before asoiaf. or since. at least not nearly so intense nor long lived. ive never been active in any other fandom. my 12 yr long obsession with this series is not my norm. i actually tend to lose interest in stuff pretty quick. and tbh asoiaf has kinda ruined a lot of things for me because im so invested in this story and its characters that other fictional worlds pale in comparison. ive read other fantasy series but they never effect me the way asoiaf does.

its not that asoiaf is perfect, because its not, but there is......an addictive quality to it. with all my recent twow speculation it feels like a puzzle and i just can’t stop. i reread these same chapters over and over and always notice new things, new connections.

i think what makes asoiaf such a good fantasy series is the tension between the magical world and the ordinary world. arya’s storyline is a standout for showcasing both. she has magic in her blood with a soul bonded direwolf and she’s training to become a face changing assassin, but her arc is built upon a very gripping story of war and identity. and i love the approach grrm takes towards power whether its magical or political: its costly and its dangerous. “this will hurt but pain is the price of power” the kindly man tells her!!!!!!! arya’s arc revolves around the single greatest power in any world: not king not god not coin but death. theres nothing realer than that.

she's definitely not the first choice for theories or meta. mostly because arya’s nonconformity just confuses the hell out of fandom. thats why they’re literally incapable of coming up with a decent theory. they think that since she’s not going to accept her role as a passive ornament than theres no place for her in westeros’ future. she doesnt fit in the old world....but the entire concept is that they're going to build a new world! wake up sheeple. arya will be a part of that. her willful, unconventional nature is exactly why she won’t just abandon her pack and her home in the end. arya doesn’t know how to back down.

#sorry for the TANGENT #that nobody asked for #i saw ''arya will travel!'' shit today and it annoyed me lmao #but a lovely ask!#thank you again #ask

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buttercuparry · 1 year

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A youtuber just started season 5 and i just kept thinking i wish they did the plot like in the books with Fake!Arya and all the lords gathering and Theon&Barbarey because I love the book plot so much except for Jeyne suffering like that. But how would you do the plot if you had the chance in the show? Just like Bran that isn’t in season five i had an idea of either Arya‘s plot in bravoos to be shown in the end of season 4 that she starts training.So then in season 5 we have Fake!Arya and then have real Arya back up in season 6 already training like Bran is and ending her plot there.Or have Sansa not be in season 5 but have her in s6, she is still posing as Alayne just how s4 ended , then they learn about Arya being in Winterfell and Jon trying to fight Ramsey so they save them with the Vale army right at the end!?! But then where does Rickon come in and then the succession gets weird. It’s Littlefinger power move to have Alayne be Sansa so then they can be saviors in the last moment if they show up like in the show. So then Sansa can have the north. But having her already be present in the plot like the show with no fake!arya and not have people willing to fight for her name or rickon since he is captured then it makes it easier for Jon to be King. How could they have adapted it with Fake!Arya in a more logical way? My other idea was both jon and sansa reunite in the last episode of season 6 after the battle. and choose Arya to be Queen even tho she isn’t present since they don’t trust each other and they fought for her name. But again rickon is also a problem and it’s not logical too.. How would you adapt it? Sorry for this long ass essay😭

I think there were talks about how GRRM wanted the show to have two more seasons as that would have better executed the endgame but still wouldn't have spoiled the books all together. There could have been both Jeyne and the Arya plot in a season or like you said they could have done it in alternate seasons.

There are a few things in play here, that made the perfect recipe for the disaster that GoT became. First and foremost: Grrm couldn't finish the book while the show was running. Even now we don't have a particular end in sight. So even if D&D truly were dedicated to their craft; there still would have been some struggle points.

But I think this is where you talk to the author. You follow his direction. Of course TV media can never encompass everything a book can; but you can be diligent in your compression and keep it a bit close to the source material. Like you said: we really don't know how to solve the northern plot. Where does Rickon come in? Bran is still alive, so what would that mean for Jon? LF is on a path to destroy the kingdom from the inside: he wants revenge against the world because the nobility thought that his birth made him too inferior to pursue the girl he was head over heels for. He wants the power that his birth denied him and he would do anything to get it. So here we have the Sansa dilemma. And then we have Arya. The Lyanna doppelganger. The one who has an wolf army, and maybe soon would be in possession of a crown. And of course the north has risen in her name. So you see how complex it is; people are rightfully suspecting a Stark succession crisis and maybe a struggle amongst various factions who would want their own preferred candidate to either be the kitn/qitn/lord of winterfell/lady of winterfell.

But the show never ever put this much thought into the material. And herein comes the second point. What D&D did, was that they chose only a few characters to focus on. They relegated other important povs to the role of a minor character. Like for example for Arya they forced her into what they think a "tomboy" should be like. Bran...they didn't even bother to understand who was who in his storyline. The Three Eyed Crow is not a magical designation to be bestowed onto the next poor chap every few generations. It was specifically a Brynden Rivers only thing and Bran was supposed to see that no...this was not him. That he won't just give up his life to rot in a cave. When he says that he is not dead, just broken like winterfell, the readers were meant to relate the strength of House Stark's ancient seat with Bran's own strength. Thereby cementing him as another legitimate heir who can very well carry on the Stark name. I know all the little details of the plot, all of the slow areas cannot be translated when we are watching something. But any little dialogue that relates Bran to Winterfell would have done wonders to Bran's character development. I mean they could give show!Sansa the lines that weren't meant for her and made show! Arya's Braavosi experience filled with more trauma than what she may experience in the books- so I don't see how sticking at least a smidge more to the books could have made it more of a headache 🤷🏽

D&D always played favourites. And because they did, by the end of it all GoT became more and more clownish because in asoiaf- each and every plot is interwoven. I honestly don't know what I would have done if I were the director. But dismissing the importance of magic, dismissing storylines, characters and adding in uneccesary violence just because the fans could figure out the ending can never be an option.

The Northern plot is connected to many, many storylines. When I said that D&d played favourites, I didn't mean to indicate that they did justice to these characters either. One of the main players in the northern plotline is Jon Snow. Jon Snow who haggles like a fishwife. Jon Snow who plots and plans and who is not the wet catman D&D made his show counterpart out to be. They took the line "you know nothing Jon Snow" too literally, not realizing that it is not meant to indicate Jon's naivete but an indication that the more Jon plays a part in politics and has to make dishonorable decisions- he understands what it truly means to kill the boy and be a man. He is not Ned Stark. Honour is a huge driving point in his storyline but he would be dishonourable if it means saving a kid from being burned alive. He would compromise an institution if it means that his sister would be safe. It is he who sends Stannis to the doors of the Northern Houses and rouses them for Ned Stark's daughter. We find here a reference to Ned Stark's legacy that is so so different from Tywin Lannister's. He may be mocked by the Lannister's, by LF. But the northern houses rising is a testament to the legacy that he built. Ned was not perfect, he failed his own nephew and was a hypocrite when it came to Robert; but there must have been something there that made even the mountain clans come down to fight for the daughter of their leige lord. And these values are intrinsically connected to Arya's own. The Northern plot itself is connected to Arya's own theme of a want for home. What makes the whole plot all the more rivetting and fascinating is the thought that this girl who believes that all is lost to her, while still almost subconsciously holding on to her identity- doesn't know that the North is marching to the rhythm of her name. She once fought for her father's men in Harrenhal, now we have her father's men fighting for her.

The Northern plot is important to both Jeyne and Theon. This ask is becoming an essay in itself so I am just going to add a few lines to this. Theon was a hostage of war. Naturally he would have a lot of resentment regarding this. This doubles when he is distinctly made to feel like he could never be a part of the Stark household. And in his revenge, in his lust for power and want of acknowledgement from Balon: he destroys the only home he has known. And it all goes to shit when he unknowingly brings in Ramsay Bolton.

Now after he is tortured, broken, degraded and almost reduced to less than a human being: Theon once again finds the strength in reclaiming his identity because of his want to save Jeyne. Not Sansa Stark, a lady or a princess of the north. But Jeyne Poole an unlucky girl from a minor house. He would gain nothing from saving her- no pardon, no glory. But he still braves the unthinkable. Because fuck Ramsay for breaking them like that. Fuck his sadistic glee at reducing human beings to nothing but broken lumps of flesh and blood.

And he gets this strength after he hears Bran, who reaches out to him through the heart tree.

So you see anon, how everything is somehow connected to everything else in asoiaf. You deliberately snip out one and you risk losing so, so much. And D&D did it again and again. Without consideration. Without thought. I am sorry for not being exactly able to answer, how one could have gone about the northern plot while adapting the series for television. But I hope I could give you at least something.

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aflashofgreen · 2 years

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Slaying a savage... Littlefinger

This post deals with the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy as it pertains to Sansa, and explores the thematic relevance that the "savage giant" being Littlefinger could hold.

"I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

– ASOS Arya VIII

The GOHH's prophecy refers first to Sansa at the PW, the "purple serpents in her hair" being a metaphor for the poison hidden in Sansa's hair net unbeknowst to her, and which costs Joffrey his life. It also predicts an event that has yet to happen, where Sansa is strongly implied to play a part in someone's death once again.

The wording of the prophecy ("slaying") brings to mind physicality, a more direct confrontation, and in that sense seems indicative of a more active role on Sansa's part in bringing about someone's downfall this time. If this reading is correct, this is one way the two events referenced by the prophecy would be contrasted, with Sansa being used as a pawn in Joffrey's murder, and consciously slaying the savage giant in an upcoming book.

Littlefinger being that savage giant offers a greater opportunity for contrast still. For one, he is the one responsible for implicating Sansa in Joffrey's murder, by arranging for Dontos to gift her with the hair net that served to smuggle the poison that killed Joffrey:

"Your disappearance will make them suspect you in Joffrey’s death. The gold cloaks will hunt, and the eunuch will jingle his purse. Dontos . . . well, you heard him. He sold you for gold, and when he’d drunk it up he would have sold you again. A bag of dragons buys a man’s silence for a while, but a well-placed quarrel buys it forever." He smiled sadly. "All he did he did at my behest. I dared not befriend you openly. When I heard how you saved his life at Joff’s tourney, I knew he would be the perfect catspaw."

– ASOS Sansa V

"As you moved Ser Dontos to poison Joffrey?" It had to have been Dontos, she had concluded.

Littlefinger laughed. "Ser Dontos the Red was a skin of wine with legs. He could never have been trusted with a task of such enormity. He would have bungled it or betrayed me. No, all Dontos had to do was lead you from the castle . . . and make certain you wore your silver hair net."

– ASOS Sansa VI

Not only does Littlefinger use Sansa as his mule, he reveals a lack of motive for co-orchestrating Joffrey's murder:

"Why should I wish him dead?" Littlefinger shrugged. "I had no motive. Besides, I am a thousand leagues away in the Vale. Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game."

– ASOS Sansa V

Of course, the reader can attribute him one regardless, namely to take ownership of Sansa, Joffrey's murder providing the backdrop and distraction to steal her away. In any case, either he truly did it for funsies only, to have Sansa under his power or some other advantageous reason (like later collecting a debt from the Tyrells?) – so the last motive can be summarized as personal gain.

The PW is not the first time Sansa was involved in someone's death. To be clear, the only people responsible for Ned's death are the ones who held the power to make it happen, namely the adults who orchestrated his imprisonement, and Joffrey in his position as king. But I would be remiss not to mention that Sansa sharing her father's intention to leave KL helped along consequent events:

No one had given Cersei such a lovely gift since Sansa Stark had run to her to divulge Lord Eddard's plans.

– AFFC Cersei II

If nothing else, it is something GRRM wants us to consider. We also know Littlefinger had a hand in Ned's ultimate fate too, by ensuring the City Watch was in Cersei's pockets, a betrayal of Ned who, believing him an ally, had entrusted him to secure the gold cloaks for them. Readers can infer what motivation he might have had (resentment over Catelyn, advancing his position, etc.) but, again, it points to personal gain.

So, not only has Sansa already been unwittingly involved in two bloody plots, those plots were facilitated by Littlefinger, with a pleasant outcome for him, and many hurts and drawbacks for Sansa.

Morever, both these plots make innocent victims: Ned who is wrongfully imprisoned and executed, and Tyrion who is framed for Joffrey's murder. Likewise, immediately following Sansa going to Cersei in AGOT, she becomes a political hostage, and, on top of Littlefinger making her an accomplice to Joffrey's murder (which is not widely known, and thus isn't even remotely the basis for branding her guilty), everyone believes Sansa to share responsiblity with Tyrion, exactly as Littlefinger intended too ("Your disappearance will make them suspect you in Joffrey’s death.")

As such, Littlefinger being the savage giant Sansa will slay can be an opportunity to showcase Sansa this time actively working to bring about someone's death, yes, but it can also frame this second half of the prophecy in the context of seeking retribution. This post argues in favor of the poetic justice of Sansa causing Littlefinger's (her false father) downfall in light of his involvement in Ned's (her true father), and as a meaningful culmination of Sansa's rejection of Littlefinger through a reaffirmation of Stark values:

The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

– AGOT Bran I

Sansa exercising agency by consciously bearing responsibility for Littlefinger's downfall every step of the way to his death indeed aligns with a key belief of Ned's, and contrasts with his death at the king's command, also perfectly tying into the reversal of Sansa's forced complicity in Joffrey's murder, and her accidental participation in her father's ultimate fate.

Poetic justice may still occur in a work of fiction (or irl) independent of the law obviously, but I would argue that, while the punch would undoubtedly hit harder if, in slaying the giant, Sansa was specifically motivated by what happened to her father, even among other crimes leveled at Littlefinger, it would be no less poetic if she were still at that point ignorant of it. What I mean is that, to make the contrast as it relates to justice between Joffrey's and Ned's deaths vs Littlefinger's possible, the latter must happen in a legal context, affording Littlefinger what Ned (and even Joffrey who was straight up murdered preemptively, foregoing even the mimicry of lawfulness) wasn't: a just death, not only because the Westerosi legal system practices the death penalty, but because the party accused of a crime and dying because of it indeed is guilty.

It's worth remembering the wisdom Ned shares with Bran in AGOT is one relating specifically to administering legal justice, after all. And there are plenty of crimes Littlefinger is guilty of, some of which Sansa already knows about, and others she may yet find out.

I also want to note that, to speak nothing of her actual culpability (which I don't buy because of the ongoing grooming and emotional manipulation Sansa remains a victim of, which readers should be able to see through), Littlefinger has been making a point of involving Sansa in all of his schemes, furthering his hold on her and her dependence on him. It illustrates a sick logic and as-of-yet unspoken blackmail in the lines of "if I go down, you go down with me," explicited notably when, after killing Lysa in front of Sansa, he later tells Sansa:

"And this lie [accusing Marillion] may spare us. Else you and I must leave the Eyrie by the same door Lysa used."

AFFC Sansa I

In that context, it would be all the more cathartic for Sansa to bring about Littlefinger's demise, especially by revealing those schemes and saving her skin while ensuring Littlefinger doesn't.

TL;DR: Sansa slaying the savage giant Littlefinger can serve to exemplify a reclamation of her agency and identity, being freed from Littlefinger's clutches, and justice (for her father, for herself, for the simple sake of it).

(Edit: Sansa was not a prisoner of war in KL, but a political hostage as now stated. My bad for writing this post at like 3am.)

#sansa stark #valyrianscrolls #asoiaf speculation #sansa talk #afog!txt

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queenaryastark · 3 years

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I saw your post regarding Aegon/Young Griff and I agree. I also have to say, I like him, and I’m disappointed by how he treated by a large part of fandom. The way people refer to him as a ‘fake’ as an insult really grates on my nerves. Really. How does it matter if he is a Trag or Blackfyre? HE believes himself to be Targ, he was raised to be a Targ. Regardless of his heritage, he’s as much a Targ as Jon is a Stark and I don’t see people scoffing at Jon for being ‘fake’. And I saw the same people that say Aegon /Young Griff “doesn’t have any right’ to the Iron Throne, writing about how cool it would be for a Stark/Baratheon/Tyrell/Lannister to become the King/Queen of 7kingdoms. And I’m like - ???

A lot of people also write his off as Targaryen Joffrey. And I’ll be really disappointed if he does turn out similarly. Like, ofc, obviously Dany is more important that Aegon/Young Griff, but I really think there’s potential in him. And I hope he won’t be just written off. And written off as pathetic antagonist at that.

For me, calling Aegon fake or using the name fAegon isn't annoying. But sometimes it confuses me since him being "fake" is treated as more detrimental to the character than it might be. Whether he is the son of Rhaegar and Elia or the latest Blackfyre pretender, it doesn't matter. He's still the blood of the dragon, his name in all likelihood is Aegon, and he still has a possibility of taking the Iron Throne. Blackfyres use Targaryen names because they are also Targaryens. They're just descended from a bastard branch of the family, similar to Baratheons which is also a branch of the family.

I think some focus on him being "fake" because they believe that that would neutralize the character and they REALLY want him neutralized. And why wouldn't they? Even though Aegon was introduced in the fifth out of a planned seven book series, he is doing what many want Dany and Jon to do. He's raised the Targaryen banner in Westeros and is in the process of conquering the realm, even taking Storm's End, which has never been taken. I can understand how many might not think his current storyline is earned because we never got to see him grow through struggle and how it could be argued that he's fulfilling narrative promises that were made for other characters.

That said, I do agree that many are too hard on him. Is Aegon perfect? No. He's a character created by GRRM. That means he's just as flawed as the rest of them. We see that he wants to be an active participant in the battles and that he succeeds, while also seeing him freeze up in his first skirmish. We see him demanding that Tyrion's life be saved while also losing his temper and being a dick when he realizes he's been tricked. Even though we don't get his POV, it's possible to see how layered he is as a character. So I agree that reducing him to a "Targaryen Joffrey" doesn't make sense, especially since we already have a ton of those in the form of Viserys, Aemond, Aerion, Aerys, etc.

I would also say that writing him off as already dead or defeated is a set up for disappointment. There's a very real possibility that he could play a significant role in the climax and endgame. It seems that the only reason he's dismissed so easily is, again, because people put so much value in him being "fake." Even if he is "fake" and he's a Blackfyre, that wouldn't mean that he couldn't ride a dragon, marry Dany, have an alliance with Dany, and/or sit the Iron Throne. Considering the fact that the main series starts with the Baratheon branch of the Targaryen family holding the throne, that should suggest to people that a Blackfyre descendant could do the same. I think some of this confusion comes from many not knowing actual history. Just look at the royal families in Europe, particularly the UK/England. While the name of the royal family changes from time to time, the belief is that they are all descended from the same royal family.

There are many parallels that can be made between ASOIAF and the Wars of the Roses. Well those wars ended with the ascension of Henry VII Tudor, a man whose claim to the throne came through his mother, who was herself descended from a branch of the royal family that was considered illegitimate and even outright barred from the throne by parliament. Yet, he took the throne, passed it on to his son, who then passed it on to his children, and now the current queen is (supposedly) descended from his oldest daughter. So there's absolutely no reason to discount Aegon regardless of his ancestry. A union between him and Dany would actually neatly align with the end of the Wars of the Roses, though I would prefer him being her consort, as he mentions himself.

#aegon vi targaryen #young griff #asoiaf #anonymous

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thebluelemontree · 4 years

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I don't know if you've already answered a similar question, if you have I apologize and will look better for it. But do you think Sandor and Sansa would still love each with how much they've both changed? They've almost become new people, but still the same beings.

It’s no problem. I’ve written about that here and probably touched on this in many other posts.

I wouldn’t frame the question as would they “still love each other with how much they’ve both changed.” It implies that their feelings were already understood as love by them when they were together. What they had was a confusing mess of conflicting emotions that neither were fully capable of understanding or accepting at the time. Each had their reasons for why that was so, which goes to some of the issues that stood between them. While there is chemistry, intimacy, and empathy shown, IMO, it’s better to think of them as possessing the building blocks that can lead to love in the future.

On the other hand, there was also:

The fact that she’s too young, immature, and unready for a consummated romance with anyone. She needs space and time to grow up and figure out what she wants. Until AFFC, she’s still only comfortable consciously fantasizing about Loras Tyrell, who is non-threatening, conventionally attractive, and uncomplicated. They are still relatively chaste/borderline erotic fantasies. The unkiss takes time for her to consciously accept and embrace as reciprocated erotic desire.

The fact that he has no idea how to express himself without resorting to the language of violence that he understands best.

The fact that he copes with the unresolved childhood trauma and PTSD in unhealthy ways like his abrasive Hound persona, his overly-cynical worldview, and sometimes abusing alcohol when he’s under stress.

His immaturity and inability to simply ask for and accept the emotional support he wants (which she was perfectly willing to give) without freaking out over being vulnerable with someone.

The fact that they are on opposite sides of a war where Sansa’s family is in open rebellion against her captors who Sandor owes fealty to.

The fact that she’s the king’s betrothed. She’s his property. To explicitly act upon any romantic attraction would be considered treason, punishable by torture and death.

The fact that there is a massive class disparity between them that overshadows the age difference in their world. That’s one reason why neither can put a name to this thing between them. A future queen / high lord’s daughter from an ancient house should not be fraternizing with a non-knight from a house only three generations old. That’s why they struggle even knowing what to call each other because using first names shows too much familiarity and intimacy. This would be true even without any of the other conflicts. Class controls everything in Westeros.

And yes, he still owes her a big heartfelt apology for his abhorrent behavior during the Blackwater, and he should beg her forgiveness.

Most of these points I elaborate on in more detail in the links above. If you notice, though, most of these things have either been resolved or are in the process of being resolved. None of these issues were ever insurmountable obstacles.

The ways in which Sansa and Sandor have evolved even in their separation has been largely positive and complementary of each other. They haven’t grown apart or become incompatibly different at all. If anything, it’s pushed their feelings further along, and it’s clear they are very much on each other’s minds. Since we can see Sansa’s perspective firsthand, she’s only thought about Sandor more since he left.

Sansa has grown and matured a lot more when we see her in the TWOW sample chapter. Had the five-year gap panned out, she would be legally an adult in Westeros; however, dropping it doesn’t seem to have affected GRRM’s intentions for any of his POVs. She’s in the company of unconventional, sexually mature women in their early twenties who can be role models in navigating adult relationships. The sassy way she takes no shit from a brutally honest Harrold Hardyng shows she has confidence and the ability to go toe-to-toe with Sandor’s gruff personality without getting flustered and running away. After she wipes the floor with him with her wit, she ends up winning Harry over to the point he’s begging for her favor. There is no point in the sample chapter where she voices any anxieties about not feeling ready for marriage, sex, or children. This no longer seems to be an issue for her, so we can assume she feels okay with having an adult relationship at this point.

Her time as a bastard girl has made her warmer and friendlier. She was always kind, but proprieties and courtesies can also read as aloof and re-enforcing strict class boundaries. Can you imagine Kings Landing!Sansa hugging someone like Lothor Brune, a landless knight, as she does in TWOW? Or preferring the company of a sex-positive widow who enjoys taking lovers or a bastard girl over the “perfect sister” she saw in Margaery Tyrell and her cousins? Hell no. That would never happen. This new Sansa lacks those prejudices and is openly affectionate towards people she was raised to keep at arm’s length. Once she loosened up and stopped reciting courtesies, people actually got to know her and like her for who she is. That’s what Sandor always wanted from her, right? To drop the courtesies and flattering bullshit and just be a real person with him, not a talking parrot. While that criticism was harsh and rudely put, it had a lot of truth to it. It seems to have made Sansa into a happier person and more in touch with her authentic self. Now that she has accepted in Feast that she wanted Sandor like that, what is there to stop her from acting on it later?

The Quiet Isle didn’t exist before Feast. It was written for Sandor to recover and rehabilitate. Not just physically, but he’s getting what constitutes psychological counseling and a treatment plan that deals directly with his worst traits. He appears to meet with the Elder Brother often enough because the latter seems to know quite a bit about Sandor’s backstory, what his issues are, and exactly who Sansa Stark is. The rest of the time, he must observe the no talking rule and do meaningful work as a novice. This man, who once flaunted his contempt for those who couldn’t defend themselves as weak and deserving of death, is put to work digging graves for the innocent victims of violence. All day long, he has to look at the faces of men, women, and children killed by evil men with that philosophy. One brother even yells at him for carelessly tossing dirt around with the shovel, and he silently takes it. No smart ass backtalk. In the evening, he has to serve food and clear plates for men he would have once mocked. They’re men of faith, they’ve renounced violence, and Sandor sits lower in status than them. To Sandor’s credit, he humbly submits to all this in a show of respect and humility. It’s like he wants to learn these lessons they are offering and is allowing himself to be schooled. Now Sandor may always be Sandor on some level (if Stranger kicking down the stable doors and refusing to be gelded is any indication). Still, it does look like he’s become a gentler, healthier, and sober version of himself. The only part of Sandor that Sansa rejected was the Hound, and it’s both stated in the text and by George himself that the Hound is dead. Period. And yeah, it seems like Sandor is in a place where he is unlikely to backslide into old behavior, and he can make that heartfelt and necessary apology to Sansa. I don't think Sandor could ever be okay with moving their relationship forward without making amends first. It wouldn't sit right with his sense of remorse and personal responsibility, which is a good thing.

All these changes are for the better for them as individuals and as a possible future couple. Contrary to your ask, I would say a positive, fully-fledged romance with "HEA" potential wouldn’t be possible or believable without all the growth and changes they've undergone. When they reunite, they can do so on more equal footing.

Not that there aren’t more conflicts to overcome. They both are currently wanted fugitives for murders they didn’t commit, so they both need to clear their names and reclaim their true identities. There is still the matter of Sansa’s marital status as Tyrion isn’t dead but their marriage was also unconsummated. She could try to have her marriage officially annulled by the Faith somehow, but to do that, she’ll have to take the risk of revealing her true identity. Again, these don’t seem like plots that won’t be resolved anyway at some point. What about that class divide though? Well, the Starks aren’t like Tywin or Cersei, and they actually value things like faithful service. No reason why Sandor couldn’t be awarded a lordship and lands in gratitude for saving the lives of both Arya and Sansa. I’m just sayin’.

#valyrianscrolls #sansan meta #sansan #sansa stark #sandor clegane #asoiaf meta #my meta #future romance #asoiaf characterization #twow spec #asoiaf spec

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alinaastarkov · 4 years

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You need to learn how to read. I never said Arya couldn't become a good queen,(I think she has some good characteristics for it). I said her ARC doesn't have strong foreshadowing for monarchy and leadership, the way other characters do. Arya's arc is primately driven by the themes of revenge, forgiveness, acceptance, family, loss of identity, etc... not ruling. The funny thing is that Arya HERSELF doesn't want to become queen, so I'm confused on why her "fans" want her to be unhappy so badly.

I was going to start this answer all civil and say that yes I read it wrong my bad. But after seeing how you began this ask? Fuck it. Civility has not been earned.

Now, I did actually talk about Arya’s arc, as well as her character, but if you want queen foreshadowing in her arc, then I have one, very huge, thing to say to you: Nymeria.

(This sort of got away from me so I’ll put the rest under the cut)

For a start, Arya is basically a reincarnation of Nymeria of Ny Sar, the Queen of the Rhoyne who led her people to safety across the Narrow Sea. They both had people to protect, are both coming to Westeros from across the sea, both magical and both perfect for ruling. Hell, Arya even named her direwolf after the woman, which brings me to second part of this: Nymeria the direwolf. Arya’s wolf is currently leading a pack of thousands of wolves across the Riverlands, protecting them and acting as their ruler. We know the direwolves’ fates and names mirror that of their owners’ paths, so we can gather that Arya will soon be a leader of some kind, most likely a queen given the name. None of this is an accident, just as Sansa’s direwolf dying was also not an accident. Also note GRRM said that Nymeria was a queen in a similar way to Daenerys, rather than a soldier like Brienne.

I touched on foreshadowing before, but seeing as you can’t seem to read I’ll bring it up again: Ned says Arya will marry a king, her direwolf is named after a queen and is leading a pack of wolves, she thinks on Ned’s lessons on northern values as much as Jon and Bran, all of which are about leadership, she always tries to find her ‘pack’, the literal old gods speak to her, something that happens to no-one else ever, and tell her to be strong because she is a daughter of the north, Varys’ quote about Aegon and how well he is suited to ruling fits perfectly for Arya - literally all of it applies, she is learning epic skills for diplomacy and politics in Braavos, not to mention stuff about poisons which will keep her alive when she becomes someone worth poisoning, Varys also says ‘a king must put his people first’, something Arya does so many times that I can’t even list them (seriously, you’re telling me “she would make much better time on her own, she knew, but she could not leave them. they were her pack” doesn’t scream leader to you?), she makes friends and inspires loyalty wherever she goes, the featherbed song (written specifically for Arya and Gendry - I’m not a gendrya shipper but there’s no ignoring that this song is for them) mentions the woman wearing a crown, she upholds northern values like there is no tomorrow, and, in case ya didn’t hear, the only time any god speaks in the entire series is to Arya to encourage her to keep going.

Also Sansa wants to ‘make’ people love her but Arya is doing it effortlessly by just caring for them without even thinking, and seeing as that is your fave who you think is perfectly set up to be queen, and she thinks this is how to be a good queen, I thought I’d mention it.

Now, you mentioned Arya’s themes. I’m going to immediately scratch ‘revenge’ off that list because that’s not what her arc is about. Justice? Yes. Revenge? No. But, seeing as that is your list, let’s look at those themes in terms of queenship.

What would be the best revenge against the people who killed the King in the North and tried to obliterate her entire family? Why, finding the rest of her living relatives and continuing Robb’s legacy as Queen, of course! In terms of family, like Nymeria and her pack, Arya could protect them if she was queen and actually keep them close as she has been trying to do this whole time. Forgiveness and acceptance? Of herself, others? Either way, knowing that so many people cared for her and have been trying to win back the North in her name will help her accept herself and forgive the northerners for not helping her in her need, and it’s really only her own self-esteem issues that make her think she is unworthy of the office. Same with identity, Queen in the North would just be the culmination of her coming to terms with her own identity as Arya Stark. Ruling is part of her arc, for all of the dozens of reasons I have already said. And, I know I’m not perfect, so... there are probably more I’ve forgotten.

We don’t know how Arya feels about being Queen, though, do we? She doesn’t want to be a lady, i.e. the kind of lady that is expected of her at the beginning of the series. Being queen is totally different. They have never had a Queen in the North before, it is a role she can define for herself, and given her quintessentially northern values, she would do an amazing job. But she never thinks about leadership, or much of want she wants after the war, because she doesn’t have time to. She’s running for her life, she can’t think of anything but how she is going to live the next day. The minute she gets a chance to rest and think, without grappling with identity issues, then we can start discussing what Arya does or does not want.

We want Arya to be happy. And it’s not a stretch to think that being Queen, in her own way, wouldn’t make her happy. Enough of the quotation marks thank you very much.

#arya stark #asoiaf #anti sansa stans #neve has mail

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turtle-paced · 5 years

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Appreciation Post: Catelyn Stark

Catelyn had never liked this godswood…

This is how we meet Catelyn Stark, our second recurring PoV character in all of ASoIaF, and the first thing GRRM shows us about her is that she still feels an outsider in her own home. The second thing he shows us is that Catelyn’s willing to push past her discomfort for the husband she loves.

Catelyn is a grown woman when the story begins, and more importantly, she’s a happy woman. Her life is not perfect, but she lives a materially comfortable life with a family she adores. She has the respect and trust of her husband and his advisors. As we discover later, Catelyn was also unquestionably her father’s favourite child, and her famous uncle doesn’t just love her, but holds her in high regard. The patriarchal norms of her society affect her, but save for Jon Snow’s presence in Winterfell at Ned’s insistence, Catelyn doesn’t feel the bite of said norms all that much.

Her arc is one of ASoIaF’s most painful and drawn-out tragedies: Catelyn goes from happy, respected, in control, loving and loved, and experiences the loss of almost her entire family, realising in the process how little she was able to do to prevent it. When last we see her in AFFC, she’s a reanimated corpse driven mostly by the need to hurt the people who hurt her, consumed by rage and hate to the point where she’s willing to hang the innocent Podrick and forces loyal Brienne to a terrible choice.

For the first three books, Catelyn does sterling duty as one of the smartest and best-informed PoV characters. Right from the word go we see that the force of her intellect is such that the men around her have to admit it - some quite happily, some a little less so.

"Until this morning, no living man had ever seen a direwolf either," Catelyn reminded him.

"I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully," he said with a rueful smile.

- Catelyn I, AGoT

All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn.

- Tyrion IV, AGoT

"A woman can rule as wisely as a man," Catelyn said.

"The right woman can," her uncle said with a sideways glance. "Make no mistake, Cat. Lysa is not you."

- Catelyn VI, AGoT

"King Robb is warring, my lord," Catelyn replied with icy courtesy, "not playing at tourney."

Renly grinned. "Go softly, Lord Randyll, I fear you're overmatched."

- Catelyn II, ACoK

And it’s not hard to see why people think she’s smart. It’s because she is. She handily outwits Tyrion at the Inn at the Crossroads. Once Stannis tips her off to the fact of Cersei and Jaime’s affair, Catelyn puts the rest of it together, including the attempt on Bran’s life, in a matter of hours. She argues that Robb should not send Theon to the Iron Islands. She’s fast enough to put the pieces of the Red Wedding together, tragically only seconds ahead of the crossbow bolts, too late to do anything about as per her tragic role.

Her two-chapter stay in Renly’s camp is one of the highlight of ACoK, wherein she points out another central tragedy of the series:

"Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?"

"Because it will not last," Catelyn answered, sadly. "Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming."

- Catelyn II, ACoK

Which is followed the next chapter by ACoK’s mission statement:

"This is folly," Catelyn said sharply. "Lord Tywin sits at Harrenhal with twenty thousand swords. The remnants of the Kingslayer's army have regrouped at the Golden Tooth, another Lannister host gathers beneath the shadow of Casterly Rock, and Cersei and her son hold King's Landing and your precious Iron Throne. You each name yourself king, yet the kingdom bleeds, and no one lifts a sword to defend it but my son."

- Catelyn III, ACoK

And an epic burn showing the hollowness of Renly Baratheon:

"While he lives," Renly admitted. "Though it's a fool's law, wouldn't you agree? Why the oldest son, and not the best-fitted? The crown will suit me, as it never suited Robert and would not suit Stannis. I have it in me to be a great king, strong yet generous, clever, just, diligent, loyal to my friends and terrible to my enemies, yet capable of forgiveness, patient—"

"—humble?" Catelyn supplied.

- Catelyn III, ACoK

This capacity to get to the heart of the matter is also crucial to pointing out the effects of the society she lives in, as Catelyn starts to see how her life and actions have been constrained by the gender role she’s expected to play. She has some of the best internal monologue (and a real highlight of GRRM’s writing in this series) on this point:

She was no stranger to waiting, after all. Her men had always made her wait. "Watch for me, little cat," her father would always tell her, when he rode off to court or fair or battle. And she would, standing patiently on the battlements of Riverrun as the waters of the Red Fork and the Tumblestone flowed by. He did not always come when he said he would, and days would ofttimes pass as Catelyn stood her vigil, peering out between crenels and through arrow loops until she caught a glimpse of Lord Hoster on his old brown gelding, trotting along the river-shore toward the landing. "Did you watch for me?" he'd ask when he bent to hug her. "Did you, little cat?"

Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return." Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept.

Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small…

And now it was for Robb that she waited…for Robb, and for Jaime Lannister, the gilded knight who men said had never learned to wait at all.

- Catelyn X, AGoT

And some of the most pointed questions:

He pushed a fall of hair out of his eyes and gave a shake of the head. "I might have been able to trade the Kingslayer for Father, but…”

“…but not for the girls?" Her voice was icy quiet. "Girls are not important enough, are they?"

- Catelyn I, ACoK

Catelyn does not let Robb nor the reader forget this point. Her PoV is instrumental in keeping the personal losses to the Stark family in view, hence another of her excellent moments in AGoT. Which I’m going to quote in its entirely, because this is an appreciation post.

Catelyn waited until they had quieted. "My lords," she said then, "Lord Eddard was your liege, but I shared his bed and bore his children. Do you think I love him any less than you?" Her voice almost broke with her grief, but Catelyn took a long breath and steadied herself. "Robb, if that sword could bring him back, I should never let you sheathe it until Ned stood at my side once more … but he is gone, and a hundred Whispering Woods will not change that. Ned is gone, and Daryn Hornwood, and Lord Karstark's valiant sons, and many other good men besides, and none of them will return to us. Must we have more deaths still?"

[…]

"You are the gentle sex," said Lord Karstark, with the lines of grief fresh on his face. "A man has a need for vengeance."

"Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and you would see how gentle a woman can be," Catelyn replied. "Perhaps I do not understand tactics and strategy … but I understand futility. We went to war when Lannister armies were ravaging the riverlands, and Ned was a prisoner, falsely accused of treason. We fought to defend ourselves, and to win my lord's freedom.

"Well, the one is done, and the other forever beyond our reach. I will mourn for Ned until the end of my days, but I must think of the living. I want my daughters back, and the queen holds them still. If I must trade our four Lannisters for their two Starks, I will call that a bargain and thank the gods. I want you safe, Robb, ruling at Winterfell from your father's seat. I want you to live your life, to kiss a girl and wed a woman and father a son. I want to write an end to this. I want to go home, my lords, and weep for my husband."

- Catelyn XI, AGoT

As a political proposal, this may be fatally flawed, but it is nevertheless a beautiful expression of Catelyn’s priorities and an emotional portrait of the human-scale effects of Ned’s death.

This speech, and Catelyn’s question to Robb regarding Sansa and Arya, also help show some of the most impressive character writing with Catelyn. Catelyn’s great motivation is to protect her family. Her love for her family is palpable. It’s one of her greatest virtues.

It’s also her greatest flaw.

Catelyn is clever and brave and willing to do just about anything to protect her family. When she makes her proposal for peace, she fails to account for the effects on families not her own. When she frees Jaime, she’s looking to protect Sansa and Arya alone. And most controversially, her drive to protect her children is a major contributing factor in her treatment of Jon Snow (however you characterise this treatment).

While this might be a character flaw, and a bloody serious one, it’s also fantastic character writing. Also exellent worldbuilding, since it goes to show both how Jon suffers due to social class and the effects of the patriarchy on Catelyn. It unifies her virtues and her vices, allowing her to be clever and sympathetic - and also horribly wrong in ways that seriously hurt others, on occasion. I strongly believe that Catelyn is a more impressive character for the fact that GRRM has given her that truly serious flaw. Catelyn is allowed to be a human being with grievances and blind spots rather than a saintly mother figure.

Catelyn is a complete character, capable and complex and challenging. Whether or not you like her, whether or not you think she took the best actions, there’s a lot to appreciate in her.

#ASoIaF #valyrianscrolls #catelyn stark

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ansheofthevalley · 5 years

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I strongly disagree with the endings for the Stark Pack. Sansa and the Northern lords along with the Vale and Riverland's lords and armies travelled to what was left of King's Landing to get Jon back against a few, what, hundred foreign invaders with no leader? And just let Jon be punished for saving them all? And Arya, who had finally learned that she had family and a home to go to and protect would just leave to go sailing, something that was never really a part of her arc other than an off...

...handed comment to a stranger in Essos? And Bran, who's motives and POV have been non-existent for SEASONS is made king by a group of people who don't know him or what he is capable of at roughly 17 years old when there are other, better, candidates in the Dragon Pit and elsewhere. And Sansa, who's whole arc has been about her status as the Key to the North and how she only wants the love and safety her parents had is entirely alone at the end of the show? All of the Starks should be together.

Hi there!

One of the things I'm still trying to wrap my mind around is the Starklings ending. LBR, season 8 was a mess and it didn't make much sense narratively, especially if compared to previous seasons. It's as if D&D discarded seasons-worth of character growth and development in favor of shocking twists *pretends to be shocked*

But you asked about the Starks and their ending.

The thing about the Starklings is that they’re deeply connected to the idea of home, but more specifically, going back to that home. Some left by choice, others by force or circumstance. But the thing is that all the Starklings have been uprooted from their home early on. Their journey (and I’m simplifying the hell out of it) is about going back home. All the characters have their distinctive aspects to their journeys to set them apart. But if we were to say what their journey is about in just a few words, it’s that: it’s about coming home. But there’s also another factor: family. All of them had to be stripped of their identity as a Stark in one point (or more than once) of the story. (*) Since the moment they’re stripped from their home and identity, they start their journey on regaining both (we could make an exception with Bran since he’s tied with magic and is in pursuit of a higher calling) (**). But the themes of identity, present in their arcs trough their home and their family name, are there.

(*) I just realized that all the surviving Starks had to renounce to/hide their identity in order to survive. All those who didn’t (Ned, Robb, Cat and Rickon) ended up dead.

(**) Bran’s journey can be identified with two archetypes: the Sage and the Magician. Both archetypes are connected to the sense of self. The Sage is about knowledge and a yearning of paradise (which is connected to his fight against the Night King and the Others). Basically, his journey is to bring back Summer through knowledge and an understanding of his powers. The Magician is about power and wanting to leave a mark in the world. We can see this with him when he’s north of the Wall with the TER.

Jon

D&D screwed up Jon's character and his development, reducing him to a mere mouthpiece to justify Dany's actions. The problem with Jon in S8 (which started in S7) is that. He was no longer treated as a protagonist but as a plot device, which can be said about all of the Starks.

Jon has huge identity issues, mainly because of his bastard status. He’s automatically set apart, even if his siblings and father did accept him and treated him as a trueborn son. The fact that he’s a bastard is a huge cross he carries, and it’s because of this he makes the choice to leave his home. For him, going to the Wall is a way to prove himself, to make others see that even a bastard can be honorable, but also to escape from the name “Snow”. At the Wall, all men are equal: it doesn’t matter where they come from or who they were before. At the Wall, they’re all equal. Or at least, that’s what he thought.

Of course, he found a place where he belonged, people that made him feel like home. But all of those always ended up being taken from him. So, there was only thing for him to do: to go back to his real home, Winterfell, and be Jon Snow again. Because in the Night’s Watch he was “Lord Snow” and a brother of the NW, later Lord Commander. With the Wildlings he was “a crow” and later a traitor. But he really found himself in S6, when he took back Winterfell with Sansa and when she “made” him a Stark (by cloaking him). Of course, that came crushing down in the S8 premiere, when he finds out he’s the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. And that’s it. We don’t see how the RLJ reveal affected him, how much of an impact it had on his identity, which already was complicated, how it changed his family dynamics or his relationships with certain characters. The reveal, along with his character, were used as plot devices for another character. We never saw the conflict of his true identity and home be resolved, not explicitly.

Jon's ending (him being sent to the Wall as "punishment" for killing Daenerys) makes little sense. As you said, he’s punished for killing Daenerys, instead of, IDK, punishing him for participating in the Sack of King’s Landing. That was a war crime, and punishing him for said war crime would’ve made more sense (since GOT and ASOIAF are basically politics with ice zombies and dragons). I could understand if the lords (and Greyworm, for some inexplicable reason) wanted to punish him for kinslaying. We know it’s bad and that it’s frowned upon in Westerosi culture. If that were the reason for his exile, I could understand it (and this is what D&D went with). But they completely undermine this by basically awarding Tyrion with everything he ever wanted for doing the same and admitting to killing his father in front of the nobility of Westeros five minutes earlier. It doesn’t matter if Tyrion suddenly sees these things as burdens. It doesn’t change the fact that these are the very things he was after when the show started. If the punishment for kinslaying is exile, then exile every person that committed that crime, which is both Jon and Tyrion. If the punishment for enabling and participating in the Sack of King’s Landing is exile, then exile every person that took part in it, that means Jon, Tyrion and Dany’s remaining army. You can’t punish some and award others when they did the same thing. That’s bad writing. But it’s known D&D are huge Tyrion fans (to the point of making him a completely different character), so...

The fact that he was made to leave his home and spend his life at the Wall (even if there were people that respected him there) is underwhelming. He yearned for a home, for a family, for an identity. And what better way to give him all that than to have the people he loves to accept him for who he is, not the name he carries? If it were up to me, Jon would’ve ended up in Winterfell, stripped from all titles, both from his Targaryen and Stark lineage. I would’ve made him remain, Jon Snow because that’s who he is. Because, ultimately, it doesn’t matter who fathered him. His loyalties always were with the Starks. But in the end, he would’ve had a chance to show it, a chance to defend and fight for his family and House. All while remaining a Snow. But for that to happen Jon needed a POV; the Starklings needed their POV; their dynamics needed to be shown, not hinted at; Jon needed to be shown interacting with other characters, not just Daenerys; the RLJ needed to be centered around him, not Daenerys.

Because, ultimately, that’s why the final season failed to deliver a satisfactory end to the story: it was centered around the wrong character. Because D&D chose not to comment in-universe on Dany’s morally gray actions, they had to double down in the last two seasons, so the GA wouldn’t be caught off guard with her “turn to darkness”. And because they centered S7 and 8 around her, all of the plot points that were established in previous seasons were used as a means to explain her “turn”, even when they shouldn’t have. RLJ was never about her. RLJ would’ve served as a perfect explanation of why Jon did what he did if it had been used from his POV. But it wasn’t. It was used as a plot device for the Dark!Dany arc. And we ended up with an unsatisfactory S8 that felt off.

Arya

Arya’s complete arc was about family and how revenge and justice can blur a little bit. When she’s forced to hide her true identity, she embarks on a journey that’s related to defining herself as a person: she’s Arya Stark, then she’s Arry, then she’s No One and finally, she’s Arya Stark again. It’s a turbulent journey in which she deals with revenge and justice, and she manages to fight for justice once she reclaims her identity as Arya Stark of Winterfell. Her journey has always been about that: identity. We meet her as an outsider in her own family group, an outcast. It would’ve been reasonable to go full circle, and show Arya to the audience being with her family, show her being accepted just as she is (things that made her an outsider in the beginning). Arya’s journey is a typical Heroine’s Journey.

She starts the series with a separation of the femenine. We see her dislike for feminine things and her desire to do what her brothers do. And taking her ending to Winterfell would’ve displayed perfectly the integration of the masculine (her being a water dancer and a faceless man) with the femenine (her new relationship with her sister and playing a role in Sansa’s court). She’d be right where she started, but different. She’d be accepted and valued for who she is. But we know GRRM is going for the bittersweet ending, and that ending is too sweet an ending for George’s liking, I imagine. But in my opinion, you can always bring a bittersweet sense to the ending by showing how hard it is to rebuild their world. Because that’s what they’ll all have to do: rebuild. These characters started the series are children or teenagers, and by the end they have the responsability to rebuild what other people have destroyed. Give the audience a glimpse of the hardships to come, show them that once it ends it won’t be sunshine and rainbows, but actual hard work. But then again, that’s just my opinion.

Bran

It’s a bit complicated for me when it comes to disscussing Bran’s ending. The thing is, D&D never understood Bran’s character. That’s why his connection to magical elements are downplayed a lot. That’s why he was missing a whole season. Because D&D didn’t understand his character and ultimately treated him as a plot device, mainly for the RLJ reveal. That’s why so many people have problems accepting him ending up as King, I think. Because it feels out of nowhere.

TBH, I’m on the fence regarding his ending. Not because I can’t see him as King, but because of D&D’s inconsistent writing. From S1 he’s linked to the magical aspects of the story but D&D downplayed those aspects so hard that ultimately Bran’s story fell generic. Then you have the season in which he was missing, explained as “him training to be the TER”. But then he’s brought back because he’s important again. We see him train with the TER, understand his powers of greenseeing a bit more and his link to the Night King. But then again, his character does a one-eighty, and by the end of S6 and the entirety of S7 he turns out to be a soulless, omnipresent God rather than the boy that wanted to fly. Sure, it can be “justified” if you go with the “Bran died in the TER cave” way of thinking. But what bugs me the most of D&D’s writing of Bran is that he stated that he wasn’t capable of being Lord of Winterfell, simply because he wasn’t Bran Stark anymore. He did that twice: once in S7 when Sansa gave him the title back (his claim surpasses Sansa’s since he’s a man) and once again in S8 when Tyrion offers him the chance to be Lord and Warden if he wants to (to ensure little to no resistance from the North respecting Daenerys). He declines both times, he gives his reasons. But in the series finale, when Tyrion proposes him as King, he’s suddenly Bran Stark again and able to rule? It doesn’t make sense. The thing is that D&D fucked up when it came to Bran, and the story overall suffered for it.

Sansa

Sansa’s arc has been defined by family and belonging, as all of the Starklings. But what differentiates her arc to those of her siblings is the fact that time and time again, she was referenced as “The Key to the North” aka the future of House Stark. The fact that she starts the series as a dreamer, a feminine girl that yearns for a family of her own and a valiant husband that loves and respects her, only for those dreams to be beaten out of her almost immediately, leads you to believe her arc will come full circle in a way in the end. But since GRRM is going for the bittersweet ending, maybe it was never in Sansa’s cards for her to end up married and having the family she always wanted, but at least she could be surrounded by her remaining family or those she considers family.

Yes, in the end, she “won”. She’s home and she’s Queen in her own right. But her journey feels inconclusive. Her arc is the only one tied to the themes of marriage and family (in the sense of having her own children) in a romantic way. She was defined as a character through her womanhood, as @esther-dot said. But not once she has had a romantic partner. Which really leaves you thinking, since minor characters like Bronn and Pod had “romantic” partners. But not Sansa. She was punished by the narrative for wanting to be a wife and a mother.

She was married off twice, she was groomed and raped. We see her go from a girl with dreams to a suffering woman, all because of her name and her being “the Key to the North”. She has basically been put through all that suffering and pain because of her identity. And even after all that, she ended up alone. She has not known what a consensual relationship is, what a healthy romantic relationship is like.

Even if we abstain from talking about romantic relationships, ever since leaving King’s Landing, all she wanted was to go home and rebuild it for her family. Since reuniting with her siblings, all she wanted was to take care of her family, for all of them to be a pack. After having her isolated and surrounded by enemies, it would’ve been satisfying to know that at least she was now surrounded by family and/or friends. But no, she ends up alone, after just finding Jon, Bran and Arya, after feeling safe with Brienne.

TL;DR: D&D fucked up big time by forgetting that the Starks always were the heart of the story. They used them as plot devices to reach their ending, which is why the Starks’ endings feel hollow because it was not driven by the characters themselves but by the writers’ need to reach the finish line. So, even if they ended the Game alive and well and in places of power, it feels unearned in some ways, nonsensical in others.

Thanks for the ask!

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sepedarodatiga · 5 years

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I need closure, so I’m going to write about this one last time.

It boils down to admitting that I was completely wrong in interpreting what the story is about. I have to admit that I have been duped into thinking that Jonsa was the main story. I mean, of course the first reaction that I have when I saw the leaks and witness that the leak was real was denial. This can’t be the ending.

But now I think acceptance is coming.

I thought I had GoT (and by extension ASOIAF) figured out. GRRM hides his true protagonist underneath other characters and their stories. First we thought Ned Stark was the detective that was going to solve Jon Arryn’s murder. He died, we were shock. Jon Arryn’s murder was also not that important. Then Robb Stark rises, we root for him and it seems that he is winning. Then the Red Wedding happened. We were shocked. The War of Five Kings falter.

Then season 6 happened and Jon becomes the King in the North, his true identity is a Targaryen prince and an heir to the throne, he’s got hot sexual tension with his redhead Stark sister Sansa who after the parentage reveal will become his cousin. A Targaryen hidden prince and a Stark girl who is a queen material. Poetry. Fairytale. Perfection.

At that time, it suddenly clicks to me, well of course Ned must die and of course Robb must die, otherwise how will Jon the true hidden protagonist can rise and become king? So we expect the story will come to the conclusion for Jon to become the king and marries his love interest and solve all the political issues in the Seven Kingdoms. Because he is the true hidden protagonist, right?

Gosh, I really should have known better.

(I know that I am oversimplifying things with the whole “one true protagonist” thing but I’m just trying to make this make sense somehow. Also this is not to say that Jonsa is not important to the story. It is important, but in the same way Ned and Robb's story is important but it is just not endgame)

When I took that conclusion I forgot about Brandon Stark. The character that Jojen Reed claims as the only thing that matters. The first character that GRRM made when he started ASOIAF. The fairytale that is Jonsa turns out to be just another layer of a very intricate and elaborate red herring to cover up GRRM’s true protagonist Brandon Stark (and to some extent Arya Stark, because she killed the Night King). So of course Jonsa must fall and that fall was brought upon by one Daenerys Targaryen.

I have to laugh to my own argument about Jonsa being the main endgame couple because the very first shot of the Starks was Jon Snow with his brother Bran followed by Sansa Stark with his sister Arya.

It's the other way around. It's a shot of Bran Stark with his secret prince adoptive brother Jon followed by Arya Stark with her sister Sansa.

I had a tiny bit suspicion when I was working on my jonsa parallel series. They have always been clever with the episode titles. One title that stood out to me was 4x05 - First of His Name. At that episode, King Tommen was crowned and that was the first reference to this episode title. But the jonsa parallel in that episode relates heavily to Bran, and specifically Lysa Arryn brought up Sansa’s uncle Brandon Stark. And of course Bran the Builder is the founder of House Stark. This should have been a clue to how big Bran’s role is, but who would’ve guess if they only give us cryptic clues like this?

Then there was 2x08 - The Prince of Winterfell. Bran along with Rickon was the the Stark princes that still stayed at Winterfell. Bran as the oldest is the one who has authority towards Winterfell. Theon took Winterfell from Bran.

The other brilliant one is 3x08 - Second Sons which refers to Daario Naharis’ company, but it also revolves around Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion Lannister, who is the second son of the Lannister family. Who else is a second son? Yes, Jon (Aegon) who is Rhaegar’s second son and also... Bran. Bran is Ned Stark’s second son.

So I believe that the Starks at the end are where GRRM wanted them to be. I remember a leak that takes the form of five questions and that leak state that Jon’s last scene is the Wall. It also ties in very nicely with the first scene in GoT with Waymar Royce. Yes, this was always to be his ending. Jonsa must dissolves by making Jon a traitor, queenslayer and kinslayer and to be exiled to the Wall.

But does this story with Jonsa as the final and biggest red herring works? As it is now with the show, the answer is a definitive no for me for several reasons.

First the build up time. Ned’s story was given ample time to build up with enough focus, 9 episodes until his death. And Robb’s story was given even more, a whole of season 2 and large part of season 3 until the red wedding. Jonsa was built up in season 6 with their fall starting on episode 3 of season 7. But when did Bran ever became focus of the story. We always thought, he MUST be important, but how, when, why? Bran Stark never rises, he’s always in the background until suddenly in the very last episode, he’s king.... It also doesn’t help at all that he’s becoming this emotionally detached being that we find hard to empathize with. It is just a sad sad irony that jonsa as the red herring is a much more emotionally compelling story, with characters played by actors that happens to spark chemistry to the roof, rather than the true hidden Prince Bran. (And I’m not even going to try to address the cult personality of Daenerys Targaryen that add a complex layer of red herring)

Second, Jonsa never truly happened in the show. We were given subtext after subtext and the culmination never happened. I am inclined to think that in the books Jonsa will happen and pol!Jon is real. The betrayal towards Daenerys Targaryen will be full blown Jon having an incest affair with his sister and he will father a bastard with her (Yes, I am still holding on to that theory because it only make sense given all the clues. And think about it, Bran’s fall was brought by an incest couple Jaime/Cersei and later his rise will be brought by Jonsa). I think the show just didn’t have the balls to fully materialize that betrayal and either way, the ending would still be the same, Jon exiled at the Wall for killing Dany and Sansa stayed in Winterfell ruling (in my version, with a bastard son named Snow).

The third and most important aspect of why Bran doesn’t work is because his power is supernatural and so his kingship does not feel earned at all. I really don’t know why GRRM is going with this...like....at all, or if he even going with this in the books? But I believe this is the ending that he wanted: Aegon Targaryen kneeling before Brandon Stark.

“You were exactly where you were supposed to be”

In the end this deceit got me hurt, heartbroken, sad, unfulfilled. But I will never regret to be a part of this lovely fandom that has taught me so much. Seriously, I learn so so much from everyone’s meta and I am forever thankful for that. I wouldn’t have reach this conclusion without reading all of your wonderful meta and I wouldn’t have been able to write shit without you setting the example. So again, thank you and I hope everybody will recover soon!

#jonsa #bran stark #king bran

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my-arya-underfoot · 5 years

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How the latest GoT plot lines up with the books (and should we expect GRRM to end with this crap as well)

This last, god-awful plotline of “Mad” Dany vs Cersei vs Noble Jon-backed-by-wise-Varys seems to be the weirdest, stupidest adaption of the books’ Young Griff/Aegon story.

And oh my god is it stupid

For anyone who hasn’t read the books: ADoD introduces Young Griff, allegedly Rhaegar’s long-lost, secretly-saved son who Varys has groomed as The Perfect Ruler; and who Varys and Illyrio have been plotting to put on the throne all along. The story is currently setting up Young Griff to face Dany in a second dance of dragons and it’s possible the whole combination of Young Griff vs Dany vs Cersei with dragons and wildfire caches somehow leads to Kings Landing being blown up. That plot would would have happened in s5/6 of the show but it was cut.

And the thing is, I didn’t blame D&D for cutting plotline, I really didn’t - yes it had thematic meaning, explained Varys’ motives and revealed a mind-bending complex scheme; but I get that a TV show doesn’t have the luxury of writing as many plotlines/characters as a book does. (And tbh, I don’t think so many plots have helped GRRM either, given how he’s struggling to untangle himself)

But like now, at the eleventh hour D&D have used that plot to build their own warped endgame:

They’ve meshed Jon and Young Griff/Aegon together, hence why Jon is called Aegon and “legitimate” - even they have vastly different backstories/characters, and no one would ever back a random Starks’ bastard suddenly claiming he was Rhaegar’s trueborn son with zero evidence, based on a secret never-would-have-been-recognized annulment and wedding, ffs.

They’ve got Varys backing Jon on whim, jumping from monarch to monarch with no master plan - the furthest thing from his book self where he’d been plotting for years and had a vision for what made a good ruler and how to implement it.

They’ve got Cersei still in Kings Landing - even though they’ve had to bend over backwards to justify why she’s still in power after blowing up the Sept in s6

And ofc they have to manufacture the drama between Daenerys and Jon, and set them up on opposite sides - even though Jon, unlike Young Griff doesn’t want the throne, there’s no reason for them to fight and they could literally just get married to sort everything. So D&D have made Dany the mad Queen to justify the conflict bc of course they would.

And the worst thing of all is that they’re making this terrible, cannibalized fanfic plot the pinnacle of the series. Where it all ends

In the books it’s clear whatever goes down between Young Griff/Daenerys/Cersei is secondary to the ultimate threat of winter and the Others coming. But in the show the Long-actually-just-a-normal-length-Night was a mere footnote to this final drama.

And I think it all comes back to the issue that D&D have missed something vital in the books: That the petty games don’t matter because the dead are coming and they don’t care if you’re a lord of peasant. An overriding message of Asoiaf is that the world is bigger than the throne.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." - GRRM

But - as indicated by the title of the show itself - D&D only care about the games and drama. (Which is why they’ve cut so much of the book’s non-political stuff like Bran’s story, Jon and Arya also being wargs, Euron’s role, the prophecies etc.)

And ffs, if they were going to sweep aside the Others in the first half of the season and end on the “game” at the very least write it well instead of butchering every character on-screen.

But for all us book fans who are worried Asoiaf is going to end the same way - stay hopeful. While the books may have a version of this conflict it will not be this piece of crap. Daenerys might flirt the darker side of herself (as do all the characters from Jon and Tyrion to Arya and Bran) and even attack Kings Landing. But GRRM grapples with complexity and darkness in human nature in a way the show never has and that won’t be the end of her story. She and her dragons will help save humanity, and that won’t just be a precusor to her becoming the mad queen and one-note villian - it will be her endgame. And yeah of course Jon will struggle with his true heritage, but he has his own plot and it’s not Aegon’s. Aegon Targaryen will squabble with Cersei and battle Daenerys, Jon Snow will face down the armies of the dead and defend the world.

#asoiaf meta #jon and daenerys #Young griff #Aegon Targaryen #anti game of thrones #got spoilers

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theusurpersdog · 5 years

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The Battle of Winterfell

Okay, I’m gonna be honest, I didn’t particularly care for this episode. I came into it so hyped, because Miguel Sapochnik was in charge of the most important episode of the series to date and he has yet to disappoint, but in hindsight I realized this episode was never going to work. Not that I disliked the whole thing, because there were some moments which I absolutely love, but overall this episode was poorly conceptualized and executed even worse. Below the cut I’ll explain why I disliked it, and how I think the show could have done better. . .

First, I think this episode was poorly executed in the writing room, not by the actors, directors, and behind-the-scenes crew. Watching the Game Revealed for this episode shows just how incredible the crew behind this show is, and its a shame that all that excellent work was largely wasted by D&D.

Visually speaking though, this episode was stunning. The shots of Drogon and Rhaegal against the sky, lighting wights on fire, is legitimately breathtaking. Arya’s parkour is also stunning. Miguel Sapochnik and everyone else involved really did not disappoint, as far as they could carry the episode.

To me, this episode failed on two fronts: its approach to characters, and its approach to the battle.

Characters

The biggest problem this episode had, is that it approached its characters through the lens of the action, and not the action through the lens of its characters. While D&D promised many character moments, there was only one - the Hound deciding to toughen up because Arya was in danger. Otherwise, all of the “character beats” were slow motion shots of people reacting to the battle. Those moments, its important to note, do not come from scripting - those scenes were Miguel Sapochnik desperately trying to ground his action within the emotions of his characters. But these scenes fail to carry the emotional burden the episode needed, because they are entirely generic; that’s what I mean when I say D&D did not consider the action through their characters. None of the scenes in these episodes were written from the perspective of “How would Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Sansa, et al, react and how does that change our episode?”, they were all written from the perspective of “These are the exact events we are going to have, what room does that leave for character expression?” - and of course, the answer was very little. Arya’s plotline this episode comes the closest to personalized, and even that falls very short. Listening to the Inside the Episode, the idea behind Arya’s story was “what if we took away her characteristics, what is she left with?” which leads to more near death fake outs, but prevents any real character moments. They intentionally took her back to season one Arya, instead of incorporating 7 years of growth into her scenes.

Compare that approach to a previous episode, Blackwater, written by George Martin. Every single scene in that episode (except the dude bro scene with Bronn that GRRM was forced to write) is designed to show you something about Stannis, Davos, Cersei, Tyrion, or Sansa. It was a battle written specifically to highlight its characters. The perfect scene to highlight this difference is Sansa in the Sept during Blackwater, vs Sansa in the crypts during The Long Night. Sansa was not written to be useless this episode; her line “I will not abandon my people” combined with the unaired scenes of her killing wights, is quite enough evidence that the intent of D&D was to feature her. Yet, in the finished product, its very clear that D&D really didn’t understand how to feature her; the scenes in the crypts are entirely superfluous, because they exist solely to include Tyrion and Sansa. Whereas in Blackwater, GRRM wrote the scenes to highlight Sansa’s leadership, kindness, bravery, loyalty, and compassion. She is not even included in the “battle” portion of the episode, but many of her very best lines are from that episode and its corresponding book chapters - because GRRM worked the battle around his characters, instead of D&D who worked their characters around the battle. D&D genuinely didn’t know how to include scenes in this episode that weren’t action, and The Long Night suffered greatly for it. The best way to fix this problem would have been to re-examine each scene from a character’s perspective based on their specific story arc over 7 1/2 seasons. D&D were too focused on the base concept of fear, on how everyone is just terrified of death personified, that they forgot each character has their own story. Like I previously said, only the Hound has a scene like this, where we understand his specific reaction based on his specific story arc.

This episode also failed to incorporate its characters even when the action called for it. While my above complaint is that D&D couldn’t look outside the action to make room for characters, this one is similar but slightly different - even when the action would have been greatly improved by individualized character beats, D&D chose to ignore that in favor of straight battle sequences. The obvious example of this is Daenerys, and her complete ambivalence in the face of Viserion. The only time her character was allowed to influence her scenes this episode, is when she as a Khaleesi decided she could not watch her Khalasar slaughtered; and the only reason that was included, was an excuse to get the battle rolling as D&D envisioned it. But wouldn’t dragon vs dragon content in this episode have greatly benefited from an emotionally bereft Daenerys? I am far from her biggest stan, but it is truly a slap in the face to pretend as if one of her dragons dying, and then being brought back to try and kill her, would not almost kill Daenerys. The dragons are her children; she looks at them and sees herself reflected back, both the good and the bad. Her self worth and importance is tied to them. To not only lose one, but to see it turned against her, is a scene literally begging to be about Daenerys’ loss. And yet, her emotional connection to Viserion is completely irrelevant to her battle with the Night King.

The previous complaints I’ve had with this episode were all things I think would have been relatively easy to fix within the episode itself, but the next problem I have has been building since season one, and was probably unfixable by season 6. And that problem is of Bran, Jon, and the Night King. Obviously I don’t know what GRRM’s plans for the Others are, but I am very sure Bran is at the heart of it. Don’t get me wrong, it was amazing to see a Stark defeat the Night King; but, if we are being honest with ourselves, it was the wrong Stark. Since the start of the series, when we see the Night’s Watch deserter executed through Bran’s eyes, he has been the narrator of the Others. Yet for some reason, D&D made the decision in s1 that they weren’t going to include Northern Mysticism, or Bran’s more supernatural elements. They pretty much eliminated Warging from the show completely (which is entirely unthinkable in the books). By cutting Bran off from his plot with the Others, they filled his role with Jon. Now, Jon is very connected to the North and weirwoods and that sort of high fantasy element, but he is not connected to the White Walkers directly. Jon Snow has never even faced a White Walker in the books, compared to his show counterpart who has had run-ins with the Night King since s5. By making Jon a much more stereotypical Action Hero, they’ve already gutted what the White Walkers are in the books. Once they left Bran out of s5, there really was no going back. To me, its obvious that at some point midway through the show, D&D realized from GRRM just how important Bran was to the fight against the AotD, but it was too late to do anything about it. So Bran being in the Godswood, after an extremely vague explanation of why the Night King wants to kill him, was their desperate attempt to pick up the pieces. That left D&D with only one other option for taking out the Night King - shock value. They literally say as much in the Inside the Episode. All of the above doesn’t even mention how big a problem the Night King existing at all is, but it is a huge problem. The Night’s King, from the books, is not some all powerful figure; he is a man, who made a very stupid choice out of love. The Night’s King story is a deeply personal tale, which most likely revolves around a Stark, which ties the story back to our main characters (specifically Bran). By changing the Night’s King story into one centralized White Walker villain, they took away all the personality of the White Walkers while simultaneously pinning the entire narrative onto one character (which can only lead to an unsatisfactory ending).

The Battle

Now that I’ve explained why I dislike the character element of The Long Night, lets break down why the battle itself falls short. . .

They played this way too straightforward. If they weren’t going to ground this episode within emotional stakes and payoffs, they had to be way more creative within the battle itself. I know Dan Weiss gave his “reasons” for not including Ice Spiders, but they were stupid (for anyone who hasn’t seen the article, he said they didn’t think they could animate giant spiders well); Lord of the Rings came out more than 15 years ago and Shelob was very well done, and you’re telling me that Game of Thrones couldn’t pull them off?

Ice Spiders isn’t the only thing they could have done though. GRRM’s story is some Cthulu level horror and heavy metal stuff, and D&D should have embraced those elements. The shots of the dragons fighting worked so well because it was a visually new experience, but D&D scripted way too much melee fighting to be the backbone of the episode. Sapochnik did the best he could to make it stimulating throughout, but as an audience this can only be entertaining for so long. And D&D were obviously very attached to making this episode feature length, regardless - what I’m saying is, an editor needed to be more involved in the final cut.

#game of thrones #A Song of Ice and Fire #jonsa

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surprisebitch · 5 years

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What was your overall opinion of the finale in GOT lmao

objectively, the writing declined after from season 7 and when Dumb & Dumber decided they did not need 10 episodes each season. GoT has always been about that slow burn and carefully crafted development. i’ve ranted about that and made many posts about it and resent them for it. i’ll try and sum up my feelings

Daenerys deserved more episodes to flesh her out. GRRM said that he gave the main points to the writers and the series ending is not drastically different from book endings. I always had an inkling Dany was gonna be the dynamic character who went from good to bad or got corrupted by power. I know book!Dany will get that development…

I loved the Death scene. it was so intimate and well-shot. I also like how it was Jon who did it. and i like that Jon did not end up king and he got to be in the North where his heart is

i love that Bran became king. i just wish the writers gave him a more active role.. i believe GRRM intended for Bran to be the king here since he is the memory of Westeros and kind of represents the constitution in a way. Bran never had a bad bone in him, so it makes sense. and he never acted out of self-interest since he became the three-eyed raven. it was logical to have the omniscient being be the king

Arya also got to be the warrior she wanted to be. it was very in-character for her to choose exploring. i would’ve loved her to be the Queensguard for Sansa but i know Arya wouldnt want that

Tyrion became the hand of the king! loved it. he deserved to live. but yeah the writers did mess him up after.. from being clever to making so many mistakes under Dany’s rule. but maybe that was GRRM’s intention. i just wish it was believable for Tyrion to be making mistakes cause later seasons Tyrion was truly iffy

YARA survived!!! i was worried they were gonna kill the last queer character lmao. also Greyworm surviving was so unexpected. i did like he had more autonomy in the end and played an active role in the story.

the cinematography.. the sound.. the cast and crew really did an EXCELLENT JOB. it was really beautifully done

and finally, saving the best for last.. SANSA GOT WHAT SHE DESERVED. her STORY ARC is PERFECT. Imo, GoT ended up being a mess but Sansa’s story remained intact and consistent. and i was SOO worried about this considering i dont trust Dumb&Dumber in handling women’s arcs so Sansa being the most feminine and passive character… a pleasant surprise she got what she deserved! from being the little bird to being the leader of the wolf pack. from being a pawn to being THE QUEEN IN THE NORTH. her arc was really the best!!! her evolution as a character. the details in her coronation outfit too! how each clothing represented the entire North. she was the greatest redeeming quality of this mess of a series!

TL;DR: the writing in season 8 was bad.. Dany deserved more time for her arc or more episodes to flesh out her transformation. but there were redeeming qualities. and i’ve always been House Stark since Day 1.. so endgame was truly a WIN for me. STARKS WON.. SANSA WON.. and that’s what matters to me. i was satisfied because my faves got what they deserved

#got #spoiler #got spoiler #Anonymous

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asherlockstudy · 5 years

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Braime S8E4

I am gonna tell myself to fuck off with my obsession with this particular part of the plot right after this but you know

maybe we just saw the heartbreaking fulfillment of Azor Ahai’s prophecy

this is the first caption from their love scene

Oathkeeper and its lion in front of the fire. Oathkeeper is the symbol of Jaime’s love for Brienne and of the man he aspires to be

The last criterion for the fulfillment of the prophecy is that AA sacrifices his loving wife Nissa Nissa, asking her to bare her breasts which Nissa Nissa does eagerly

Nissa Nissa's cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon.

So there’s both anguish and ecstasy. No death would ever be more torturous for Brienne than the ultimate betrayal from the only man she truly loved and eventually trusted in. Jaime took everything from her (anguish) right after he gave her everything (ecstasy).

I wholeheartedly say that I would prefer Brienne to die 10 honourable deaths than what she goes through here because this is what Brienne always feared. This is worse than death for her.

"Killing” Nissa Nissa though was the ultimate sacrifice for Azor Ahai himself, which leaves me with the hope that Jaime intends to kill Cersei. Jaime has said almost the exact same words about what he can do for Cersei to Edmure Tully. He managed to fill him with fright for his baby son’s life and consequently took the castle without even a soldier’s nosebleed. Hopefully, he thinks Brienne must hate him in order to ensure she stays safe at Winterfell but he completely misjudges that what he did was as bad for her as if he just had driven his sword in her heart instead.

The only problem is that the Oathkeeper is still with Brienne and I doubt the stupid Widow’s Wail is Lightbringer. But [spoiler] I saw some info that Brienne as well as Sansa, Arya and Bran will head south soon because the actors filmed in Croatia. Brienne might intend to take revenge or maybe clever Sansa will advice her to calm down and rethink if Jaime’s words and actions make sense. Revenge could be possible as it might be a twist in GRRM’s plot where Lady Stoneheart commands Brienne to kill Jaime and that’s the last we know about her.

I’m still worried about how Jaime will acquire Oathkeeper when Brienne arrives at King’s Landing. Jaime doesn’t need Oathkeeper for Cersei because we assume he will strangle her, according to the Valonqar prophecy. Maybe Jaime’s role is bigger than just taking Cersei out of the way (Bran?) and this is where he will need the sword. However, it would be too much if Brienne ALSO dies after her faith in Jaime is restored just for him to take the sword because she’s done her part, she’s tortured enough. Hopefully he will just lose his own and ask for it or she will give it back to him when she meets him again, meaning everything between them is over. Another problem is that if Jaime kills Cersei and then becomes AA viewers might have problem realizing that his actual sacrifice was breaking Brienne’s heart and not killing Cersei. Another problem is that for any of this to make sense Brienne and the Starks will have to take a fucking airplane in order to arrive at King’s Landing and find Jaime in time.

There are many ways things can go wrong and the reason is, well, the terrible writing. Even if the major things that happen are interesting, honestly Missandei’s and Rhaegal’s death, Daenerys’ increasing paranoia (I start understanding her), the change of most characters’ allegiances, everything that happens between Brienne and Jaime, Bronn etc etc would all be great stuff if only they were properly shown in a 10 episode long season or even more. Right now characters just jump to new places with completely changed behaviours and beliefs and it’s just maddening. I don’t get why they tried to squeeze everything in 6 episodes like someone is chasing them with a gun. Especially if we have more to see from Bran, then, I bid my farewells to the show’s ambitions.

This is irrelevant but as a Braime shipper... was I the only one who was somewhat put off by their scene? The directing in this episode was really atrocious and the actors felt like they didn’t have the right guidance. The writing was just as bad. Jaime and Brienne’s first time didn’t happen under good and in character circumstances. Jaime wouldn’t drown her to alcohol and grasp the opportunity after his brother shouted in the room she’s a virgin. He wouldn’t be that much of a disaster either and Brienne wouldn’t be like “oh the heck with it”. Or maybe he would be a disaster but in a charming way not a comedic one. I was also surprised at a certain lack of chemistry there before the kiss between them since they have proven their insane chemistry many times before. Maybe this was a challenge for Gwen as a relatively new actress (although she nails it previously despite the horrendous writing) (but Nik was off too) or them being friends IRL was making this too awkard for them (like Rupert Grint and Emma Watson in Harry Potter) or maybe the director really left them hanging because the scene was cut abruptly, the angles were freaking weird (did anyone feel Nik was closer to the cam than Gwen? and probably on a box or something? he looked shorter but huge). I think the directing and writing of the scene made the actors uncomfortable and we lost a scene that could have easily been one of the very best of the show. In their defense, there are many as awkward or just plain dumb scenes in this episode including teleporting from one place to the next only to be attacked by a freaking navy in seconds, a navy everyone missed in the perfect daylight.

There was only one true to herself character with a nice development: Arya. I am sure Gendrya shippers are heartbroken but I honestly feel it was something positive because it shows Arya remained who she was, no man or one night stand could change her. She was never one for romance. Been there, done that but her priorities were always different. She finally chooses to become again the companion of the person she secretly bonded the most with and it is not sexual or romantic. It’s mentor and student, father and daughter-like or something more unconventional than that but as strong and meaningful. Hats off to that.

No wonder Gwen and Emilia were dropping hints there were many shitty decisions taken by the writers. I will fucking have to read the books. In the meantime, I hope Jaime proves he never meant to leave Brienne for Cersei otherwise we are talking about the most despicable and idiotic character I’ve ever had the misfortune to feel and root for. Until he proves that, this is the last piece I write for GOT, I’m not wasting more time to a potential dumbass and those who thought he was a good idea.

#braime #jaime lannister #brienne of tarth #jaime x brienne #got spoilers #got season 8 #game of thrones #azor ahai #arya stark #sandor clegane

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bighound-littlebird · 5 years

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The Alarm that Never Sounded: GOT's treatment of the SanSan Romance

by Miodrag Zarkovic

Originally posted here.

When adapting female characters from ASOIAF into the TV show "Game of thrones", David Benioff and Dan Weiss aren't unlike Robert Baratheon: if they can't disrobe it, they're bored with it. Their rendition of Melisandre, for example, isn't an intimidating and imposing practitioner of dark and supernatural powers, but rather a seductress who's able to make people obey her only if she rewards them with sex (Stannis, Gendry) or gold (Brotherhood without Banners). One more example would be their rendition of Margaery Tyrell, who was turned from a teenage girl with a perfect facade and somewhat mysterious foundation, into a promiscuous lady willing to do anything – even have sex with both her brother and her husband simultaneously, as she proposes to the latter in Season 2 – in order to achieve her personal political ambitions that are literally limitless.

With that in mind, Sansa Stark never had a chance to be properly adapted in the show created by D&D. Now, the word 'properly' has a rather wide range of possible meanings, and this essay will attempt to examine at least some of them, but, for now, let's say that the most obvious aspect in which TV Sansa was shorthanded is her screen time. In "A Clash of Kings", the book that was the basis for the Season 2 of GoT, Sansa's POV chapters, along with Tyrion's, are the only ones that depict what's happening in King's Landing, the capital of The Seven Kingdoms and the center of political power in the story. This goes for the first two thirds of "A Storm of Swords" as well, e.g. until the moment Sansa escapes from King's Landing. In short, her chapters couldn't help but be of paramount importance in the narrative sense. In the show, however, Sansa's significance is greatly decreased, and not only because the show doesn't follow the "POV structure" of the novels, but because she's reduced to nothing but a prized captive for the Lannisters.

Yes, TV Sansa is a minor, and she's played by a minor, named Sophie Turner. Her age, due to the laws that forbid the usage of underage children in explicit sex scenes, prevented D&D from using Sansa in a way they adore. And her age couldn't be drastically changed without drastic consequences on her overall arc which is, in ACOK at least, built around her first period. That's why, for example, D&D couldn't cast Natalie Dormer – one of their favorite ASOIAF characters, by the way, because they did alter Margaery to suit the actress, instead of the other way around – in the role of Sansa, because Dormer, while certainly looking younger than she is, could never pass as a minor.

And that would probably be the only thing that makes Sansa off-limits for Natalie Dormer, or some other actress D&D adore, to play her in D&D's adaptation. Everything else would've been doable. Had George R. R. Martin not put her first period in the books, Sansa's age, promiscuity, vocabulary, even wardrobe, would've been changed accordingly to suit D&D's vision of a progressive Westerosi woman, which means the first three would've been amplified, while the fourth one – wardrobe – would definitely be reduced and freed from all the unnecessary parts. She'd probably even hook up with some rogue brute at some point; when she'd find the time for him, that is; after she's done with Joff, Tyrion, Lancel, and god knows who else, she'd certainly figure out cynical killers can occupy her bed just as good as other available men can.

Speaking of cynical killers – enter Sandor Clegane. One more character that, alas, couldn't be played by Natalie Dormer, and therefore not of particular interest to D&D. Sandor in the novels is a truly memorable fellow, who slowly but steadily grows in readers' eyes as the story progresses. At the beginning, he's nothing more than a merciless brute used only for killing people Lannisters want dead. Very soon, however, a reader finds out there might be some traces of soul under that rough surface. More and more we find out about Sandor, more and more intriguing and understandable he gets. Even – more likable.

Now, what makes him likable? The stories Littlefinger tells to Sansa?! Of course not. The stories Sandor himself keeps telling to Sansa are what fleshes him to the extent that was probably impossible to predict at the beginning of the series. Through his conversations with Sansa, we find out every important thing there is to know about him. Later on, when he hangs up with Arya, Sandor is already a fully developed character, whom we aren't discovering any more, but rather following. And he became like that precisely through his exchanges with Sansa.

The show went the other way, and a pretty odd way, at that. D&D decided it was better for Littlefinger to deliver the story of how Sandor's face got burned, and that decision carries some very serious consequences in regards to characterization. For example, Littlefinger appears as someone who does know the secrets of King's Landing, but, at the same time, as someone who doesn't hesitate to share those secrets with persons he doesn't have any control over. Yes, he warns Sansa not to tell anyone about the story; but, he warns her because, and here comes the funny part – Sandor is going to kill her.

Now, why isn't Littlefinger afraid Sandor's going to kill him? After all, isn't that the logical question because it's Littlefinger who offers Sandor's secrets to others? It seems there are only two possible answers: 1) Sandor is not that scary and dangerous as Littlefinger claims, or 2) Sandor is a dangerous fellow, but Littlefinger is the bravest individual alive, because he goes around telling the secrets of people that physically can literally eat him for breakfast; and he isn't shy even, because he doesn't fail to warn Sansa how dangerous is the situation he himself dares so boldly.

Whatever conclusion a viewer draws from there, something is going to be radically changed from the source material. Quite possibly, in fact, a lot of things are going to be altered. After the said scene, both Littlefinger and Sandor are drastically different than their book origins. And the characters we ended up with in the show, are not nearly as complex and intriguing as their book counterparts. This is especially true for Sandor, who's nothing if not scary and dangerous. He is supposed to frighten the living hell out of everyone who isn't his older brother. If you take that away from Sandor, you're only left with his tender side.

But, even his tender side was almost entirely removed from the show. This time, not only by Littlefinger, but also by Tyrion: in the throne room, when Joff orders Kingsguards to undress Sansa, Sandor stands there silently. His face expression suggests he isn't pleased with what he sees, but that's it. He doesn't stand up to his king with firm "That's enough" as in the book. It is therefore on Tyrion exclusively to deny Joffrey the pleasure of torturing the girl whose only crime was that she saw him in a moment of unflattering weakness. As in the books, TV Tyrion enters the room with his sellsword and he defends Sansa from Joff, but the important difference is that in the show it looks like Tyrion is the only one both willing to oppose Joffrey and capable of doing it. In the novel, we can sense that Sandor is ready to do the same thing, only, in his case, it comes with a much bigger risk, which is not without importance.

So, in this particular case, Sandor was sacrificed for the sake of TV Tyrion. TV Littlefinger, however, wasn't forgotten in that regard, because, once again, he's fed with lines that originally belong to Sandor. In the finale of the second season, it is Littlefinger who tells Sansa to look around and see how much better than her all those liars are. Just as the last time around, this change serves neither Littlefinger nor Sandor: the former's creepy-mentoring side is exposed much earlier than it would be logical, while the latter is robbed of yet another moment in which he shows how much he cares for Sansa and how protective he is toward her.

Sansa is a case on its own, as far as wrong adaptations are concerned. She's in the league with her mother Catelyn Stark, as two Stark women that were literally butchered in the show. The thing two of them have in common is the nature of their complexity: opposite to other female characters in ASOIAF, like Dany or Arya or Asha or Brienne or Cersei, Cat and Sansa aren't interested in hurting their enemies with their own hands, or, in the case of Dany, with her own dragons (this goes for Cersei, too, even though she's the one ordering the suffering of others, not committing it: her aggression is always personal, as we can sense in the first three novels). And, what's more, Sansa isn't interested in hurting anyone, actually. Cat does have an aggressive side in her; it's female aggression all the way, but aggression it is. Sansa, on the other hand, almost never desires other people to suffer in any way. There's only one noticeable exception: Joffrey. She does think on one or two occasions how nice it would be if Robb put a sword in Joff, and, by extension, she wishes Lannisters are defeated in the war against her family. However, we have to consider the situation she finds herself in at those moments – imprisoned by the Lannisters and at Joff's 'mercy' all the time; small miracle she wishes them ill. I've never been a girl arrested by the grave enemies of my family, but if I was, I'd definitely pray for their most horrible deaths every single night. And, we have to remember that, after Joff's death, she fails to feel happy over it, even though she tries to a little.

Therefore, it maybe isn't a stretch to say Sansa is probably the one character that is most unlike the author himself. Other major characters, especially POV ones, do resemble Martin at least partially. For males, it's obvious: even though GRRM never fought in a war, nor had any military training whatsoever, men are men; even in our day and age, no male is a complete stranger to war; while depicting all those dramatic battles and duels was quite an achievement (which no personal experience would make any easier, truth be told, because in ASOIAF the combat as a phenomenon is illustrated from any number of angles, each among them presented with an abundance of details), ultimately it was in himself where Martin could find a lot of answers about his male characters, whose position in a society is never independent from their combat prowess or lack of it. Female characters, on the other hand, had to be trickier, just like they always are for male authors – let's admit it, they are not that good in creating great females, just like women writers usually don't produce male characters that are a match to their female characters nor to the male heroes created by male authors. In our day and age, these "gender rules" are rarely spoken of, but they continue to exist, due to gender predispositions that are nowhere as strong as in the mind of an individual. There are exceptions, as in good male characters created by women and vice versa, but they are in a clear minority compared to underdeveloped or unrealistic characters whose only "fault" was that they didn't share the sex with an author. And in that regard, ASOIAF could very well be unparalleled: it is perhaps impossible to find any other story that features nearly as many memorable male and female characters both, as ASOIAF does (truth be told, that fact alone should be enough to inspire analysts and scholars to look at ASOIAF at a different, more demanding light, and not as a genre piece).

Martin's girls, however, aren't completely unlike the man who came up with them. Most of them are willingly participating in "men games", e.g. power-plays and/or wars, which makes for a precious connection to a male mindset of the author. They are thinking and behaving as women (or, in the case of Arya, and Dany to an extent, as girls), but all of them are interacting with something that, in all its glory and misery, can roughly be called "a man's world". Some of the most beautifully written chapters in the series are delivered from female POVs – The Red Wedding and Cersei's "Walk of Shame" come to mind right away; but, in a thematic sense, those and other female chapters don't differ too much from male POVs.

Except for Sansa's chapters, which unmistakably belong to something we can roughly call "a woman's world". Chapters of both male and female POVs in ASOIAF are often rich with testosterone, but Sansa’s ones are almost entirely driven by estrogen: look no further than her captivity in King's Landing, that actually is, as already said, focused around her first period – that decision solely should bring a lot of respect for Martin, because he had to know going that road is never easy for a male writer.

And the funniest thing is, it all fits. Sansa's storyline is distinctive in tone, but not odd. It is a legitimate part of the general plot of ASOIAF. In fact, as her story progresses, Sansa becomes more and more important for The Game, even though she showed no clear inclination to participate in it so far, but at the same time, Martin keeps Sansa away from all those "male" aspects he decorated other female characters of his saga.

And on top of everything, we're presented with her love story, a romance with no other than the man who, prior to discovering some delicate feelings for Sansa, could pose for an ideal brute of Westeros. At the beginning of the story, Sandor Clegane could be perceived as the exact opposite of Sansa. As someone who has no business whatsoever in her world, just like she has none in his. But, with some craft wording and master subtlety, Martin succeeds in illustrating the flood of emotions that go both ways in their relationship. Those emotions are never easy, nor appropriate, let alone allowed – even by Sansa and Sandor themselves! – but they're hard to be denied.

The complexity of their multilayered characters, of their respective positions in a society and in an ongoing war, and of their relationship that resists all known clichés, represent some of the strongest evidence that ASOIAF is much more than a genre piece. There's a lot in these novels that escapes genre boundaries, but nothing more evidently than SanSan. Stuff like that is not your usual fantasy element, no matter how flattering fantasy can be as a label (Homer, Shakespeare, Tolkien – to name just a few all-time greats that created unforgettable stories with supernatural aspects in them). Any author who comes up with that kind of love story involving those kind of characters – and with a legion of other characters, and with no less than four different religions, and with themes of honor, redemption, identity, bravery, equality, ancestry, legacy, freedom, revolution... – deserves to be analyzed not as a genre writer.

Now, one can only imagine what kind of enigma Sansa and Sandor were for Benioff and Weiss. And it pretty much remained unsolved, because, when faced with all the complexity of these two characters, Benioff and Weiss decided to remove it almost entirely, along with their relationship that is reduced to occasional and odd mentioning of 'little bird'. TV Sandor was simplified to a one-note brute that goes around TV Westeros and lectures people about the pleasures of killing, a one-note brute he never was in the novels, not even in the beginning of the saga. TV Sansa, on the other hand, was denied her book complexity by shutting down all her layers, one by one. For example, Benioff and Weiss completely removed her decision to go behind her father's back and inform Cersei of his plan. They simply refused to go down that road. They did something similar to Catelyn, whose infamous line to Jon they didn't remove entirely, but did replace it with a much softer one. It is pretty safe to assume that Cat's and Sansa's complexity did bother Benioff and Weiss from the get-go.

What's also removed from the show is Sansa's agency, primarily represented in the novels by her secret meetings with Dontos, a disgraced knight she herself saved from Joffrey. In the show, we got only the saving scene; it was filmed and executed clumsily, but it was there at least. However, until recently, nobody could be sure Sansa did save Dontos, because the man disappeared afterwards (he was briefly seen as joggling balls in "Blackwater" episode, in the scene in Cersei's chambers, but he was unrecognizable for the vast majority of audience). It is reported, though, that Dontos will be returning in Season 4, so yes, Sansa did save his life after all. But, even when he returns, Sansa's attempts at escaping will be two seasons younger than they should've been at that point, and it's hard to see a way D&D can remedy that neglect.

Show-lovers often defend D&D in regards to Sansa, by saying her personality is a difficult and tricky one for portraying on screen, because even in the books she's introverted. Now, maybe she isn't the most extroverted character ever, but she's pretty far from reclusive, as she does communicate with the outside world a lot at the beginning of the series, before she's imprisoned. And even while in captivity, she can't help but communicate with Sandor and Dontos. What's more, around two of them she is her true self, which provides a wide array of possibilities for a good and informative dialogue that, in an adaptation, could compensate for the lack of inner thoughts. With Dontos, she's open not only because she saved him, but also because he explicitly offers his help (and, truth be told, it is he who enabled her to leave King's Landing eventually, so, even though he wasn't exactly honest with her concerning his motivations, her trust wasn't as misplaced as it may seem at first). And with Sandor, she's open for no particular reason – other than those subtle, emotional forces, that both of them can't help but follow and eventually become the closest and most intimate beings to each other.

The way Martin incepted and developed the barely visible, but undeniable romance, between Sansa and Sandor, is nothing short of literary brilliance. With so few words and interactions, he managed so much. The vast majority of readers are aware of restrained attraction they mutually feel, even though they didn't share a single physical aspect of the romantic relationship.

Martin is indeed a master of subtlety, as evidenced by what looks like the endless amount of carefully hidden clues that point to any number of narrative puzzles, realization of which do make an entire story much richer than if taken at face value. And he's never more subtle than with two romances: Rhaegar/Lyanna and Sandor/Sansa. Now, the respective nature of subtlety of those two romances is rather different. With Rhaegar and Lyanna, a reader is – through Robert's retelling – offered a version that is actually the very opposite of what probably happened, and only later a reader can pick up clues here and there, and finally figure out the story of a fatal attraction between the two. But, the clues are presented throughout the text, so much that, even if you don't decipher everything after the first read, at the end of "A Game of Thrones" – the first book of the series – you'll probably sense that Robert's view on events wasn't exactly accurate.

The story of Sansa and Sandor is a very different one. Their relationship is never as much as addressed, even by themselves. Sandor isn't a POV character, and he's not exactly open to people, so his silence on the matter isn't unexpected. But, Martin didn't address their romance even in Sansa's chapters, which are typically packed with inner thoughts of the POV character. It looks like Martin decided to do it the harder way and make their romance somewhat a mystery even for Sansa, which, in hindsight, does seem to be the most logical way: what teenage girl would be fully aware of a romance that "inappropriate", and experienced in those dire circumstances?! As a result of that decision, the readers got a completely fascinating depiction of a romance, that can be described as a train you hear from miles away: at first, you can't even tell is it a train or some similar sound, but slowly, with every second, you're more and more certain that your ears didn't trick you, and very soon the train is so loud that it is the only thing you can hear at all. In the novels, a reader may find something strange at first, when Sandor shares the secret of his burned face with Sansa. Some alarm may be turned on deep inside. And it becomes more apparent each time two of them share a page, with a culmination during the Battle of the Blackwater Bay, when Sandor, after he decides to desert the Lannisters, visits Sansa in her room and offers to take her home to Winterfell.

It might be the only instance in the entire series where Sandor did ask anyone's approval, which does speak volumes about his feelings for Sansa. Considering the manner in which Martin described this romance, Sandor's actions on that day was as good as a confession of his deep attraction to her. Sansa, on the other hand, doesn't have a single moment which could be pointed at as a prime evidence of her undeniable love for The Hound, but this doesn't mean her feelings toward Sandor aren't palpable. It's one more mastery of the writer: through her frequent (and skewed, but in a telling way) memories on the last time she saw Sandor, he was able to show her feelings resonating more and more inside her.

In the show, Martin was denied a chance to do the same thing, even though he wrote the "Blackwater" episode in Season 2. Thanks to the already destroyed storyline, and to god knows how many changes, and to D&D's decision to remove from the final cut some scenes Martin referred to with his scenes, the one between Sansa and Sandor near the end of that episode, served more as a greeting to book-fans who like SanSan in the source material, than as a goodbye between two not unlike souls who shared much, and could have shared a lot more, and maybe are going to if they meet again. In that scene, Rory McCann was visibly better than usual as Sandor, and Sophie Turner was as good as usual, but, just like with anything ASOIAF, the scene doesn't have nearly the same impact and importance if taken out of context.

The exact context of their SanSan is yet to be fully revealed in the books, too. Because of the already mentioned subtlety – a quality that seems to intimidate showrunners Benioff and Weiss, who, in their turn, do retaliate with their on-screen war on subtlety (just recall what they turned other romances into; for example, the romance between TV Jon "Not The Brightest Kid In The Block" Snow and TV "I Know Everything And Therefore I Can't Stop Talking" Ygritte) – Sansa's and Sandor's love story is by no means an open book. Their romance has its own share of mystery, one of which may be: what inspired those two persons to feel so strongly for each other? Personally, I always thought their mutual attraction isn't only based on a "beauty and the beast" model. There is that, but in their case it goes deeper. If that was the engine behind his emotions, Sandor had more than enough opportunities to find a beauty for his beast long before Sansa entered his life. With Sansa, I'd say their mutual attraction is rooted in their personalities. For example, if you take away Sandor's aggression, he also isn't interested in hurting others. He's naturally talented for violence, and he lives in a society that respects that kind of talent, and that is why he's violent for a living, but at the end of the day, the suffering of others isn't any kind of reward for him. Possibly, because he isn't interested in other people that much. Though, when he is interested in someone, the interest is as strong as they come.

(We don't know at this point, but it's not a stretch to imagine that his reaction to the news that his hated brother was killed wasn't unlike Sansa's reaction to Joff's death. "Am I glad he's dead? Well, not exactly, even though I wanted him killed.")

Sansa may very well be like that, too. That would be one of the possible explanations of her AGOT actions. Like the rest of the Starks, Sansa is a complex character that has some issues of her own, without which neither she nor the other Starks would be such memorable characters as they obviously are; it is the fact that they are both willing and strong enough to fight those issues, that Starks stand out for. Without going into details (as if I could!), I expect that in the remaining novels Sansa is going to face the reasons that made her go to Cersei that damned night and with the consequences of that action. And whatever comes out of that soul-searching will be inevitably combined with her claim to Winterfell that Littlefinger brought up in AFFC. And that combination is going to elevate Sansa's arc to even bigger and more important levels than so far, even though so far she was the one Stark that was most engaged – unwittingly, but still – in the bloody dynastic war for the Iron Throne.

And she'll have to cross paths with Sandor Clegane, one way or another. Their relationship was so meticulously built up, it simply has to get some sort of a closure. What that closure is going to be is impossible to predict, because we are talking of one George R. R. Martin, a writer who managed to shock us as he pleased more than a few times.

What is also impossible, is to take anything that did or didn't happen in the show as any indication at what the closer may or may not be. There isn't a storyline in GoT that wasn't drastically changed, and weakened in the process, but Sansa's arc, along with her relationship with Sandor, is among the biggest victims of D&D's inability to adapt.

Whether you happen to like what Benioff and Weiss put in the show, or don't, you'd be advised not to recognize any significance in their decisions for further developments in ASOIAF. Just like show-lovers tend to remind everyone else, GoT and ASOIAF are two entirely separate beasts. And book Sansa and book Sandor, along with everything Martin has in his store for them, can be really glad about it.

#sansa stark #sandor clegane #game of thrones #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #meta #books vs show #long post

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