#2. Probably Jake English from Homestuck most of all (I like the idea of others too but he would be most interesting to me) | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

autumnblogs · 3 years

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Aside Glance: The Palpable Absence of the Dubiously Canonical

So you might have noticed throughout my writings that I have at the same time avoided directly talking about any of the expanded universe material while also occasionally alluding to it just enough to make it noticeable. At least, probably.

So to nobody’s surprise, let me say;

I don’t like the Homestuck Epilogues.

Before I dig into why, I wanna dig out what I think I actually do like about the Homestuck Epilogues. CW: for mentions of suicide, sexual violence, fascism, genocide, etc. Spoiler Warning for the Homestuck Epilogues, although if you haven’t read them by now, good; don’t. Keep reading for my thoughts on the Epilogues.

I do like that the Homestuck Epilogues say quite loudly and clearly that Fascism Is Terrible, and that Neo-Liberals are often Discount Fascists at best in terms of the material effects they have on the world that we have to share with them. They can often end up being interchangeable, and events can cause someone with a temperament predisposed toward Neo-liberalism down the path of bloody reactionary sentiment the way it did with Jane.

Homestuck has always been a pretty soundly anti-authoritarian work, and pretty aggressively contemporary work, so it makes sense that Homestuck^2 would reflect an internet culture rabidly obsessing about the politics of the Trump-Era United States, cast its villains as parallels to the Trump Administration, the grody religious movements it catered to, and the hyper-rich dingalings who benefited from it.

I do like that the Homestuck Epilogues develop the theme of criticizing the author and continues to call attention to its narrators, this time by explicitly casting them as villainous, and morally ambiguous/incomprehensible respectively. A central idea in Homestuck is the relationship between Author, Audience, and Characters, and the blending of the lines between them.

I like that it calls attention not just to the idea that a story’s narrator is an agent themselves, but also to the reality that the narrator may not have the best interests of either their readers, or their characters in mind. I like that the authorial powers of these characters are represented as overtly dangerous and evil when they are addressed at all.

I also like that the Homestuck Epilogues are rather brutally honest about the fact that sometimes, the people that you grew up with - your close friends - grow apart from you, and turn into kind of bad people. I’ve watched that happen in real time, and have had to stop hanging out with people because they just kind of... turned evil. That’s something that needs to be discussed more in fiction, and more honestly than the usual way. When the most visible example of like, someone you knew and loved turning into a bad person is like, Anakin Skywalker, maybe the world needs more stories about that.

So good, that’s what we’ve got for things I think were good to say. Well done.

What don’t I like about the Homestuck Epilogues?

In a word, I think, they are cruel. Relentlessly cruel. Even actively malicious.

Homestuck has, of course, always been rather mean-spirited and adversarial, pretty much since page one. And really, so has Andrew’s writing in general, since the days when he ran the site Team Special Olympics. His humor walks a fine line between and outrageous and genuinely offensive, as he dares you to say, “That’s fucked up!” so he can respond “it was just a joke, where’s your sense of humor?”

But the Epilogues transcend the usual sardonic envelope-pushing we can usually count on Andrew for, and instead opt to sink their teeth into the readers in an assault on the senses, and on the sensibilities. Reading the Epilogues is a brutal experience to endure emotionally, and in a lot of places, morally offensive.

And they are this way practically from the first page; our very first impression of the Homestuck Epilogues is a content warning that presents itself in such a way as to be almost unmistakably parodic. The stylization as an AO3 work, particularly in the context of Homestuck, where these sorts of overzealous content warning pages are associated with preachy jerks like Kankri, it comes across as a direct challenge to the viewer, and by a challenge, I really mean an attack. It is a mean-spirited joke at the expense of people who have a desire to curate their media experience - and then the authors have the gall to say that the one of the goals of the Epilogues is to challenge people to curate their media more.

Every time a character could conceivably make a bad decision, or become a more ill-conceived version of themselves, they somehow manage it, which becomes all the more unbearable because of the identification of character and audience that has been the case throughout all of Homestuck. If Homestuck introduces us to this entire cast and says, this is you, the Epilogues seem to follow up with and there is nothing good about you. Jade Harley somehow transforms into a grotesque caricature of a trans-woman, a girl who is sexually incontinent and predatory in a way that is directly tied to her having a dog penis - a state of being which the text variously slut-shames her for in Meat, or alternatively uses to blame her for ruining Dave and Karkat’s relationship in Candy.

John Egbert is severely depressed and dysfunctional, and this leads him either to go off and kill Lord English to chase the thrill of adventure and his own sense of purpose (in direct opposition to the all-but-explicitly-stated takeaway from Homestuck which Dave gives us, that the better option is to just leave the story alone altogether - explicitly the worst decision he could make according to the rules of Homestuck) or descend into decades of nihilistic solipsism while the world disintegrates around him.

Dirk’s worst natures take over him and transform him into a person who can only conceivably be satisfied either by becoming an arch-villain, or by murdering himself.

The Epilogues are aggressively cruel to Jake English, choosing to double down on the lack of emotional resolution he suffered from at the end of Homestuck, and squarely placing the blame for his own misery on his own shoulders, in a way which is pretty hard to read around, which is part and parcel of the general malice which Homestuck has historically treated mentally ill characters with. Nearly all the kids in Homestuck have suffered incomprehensible levels of mental and physical abuse, and the text expects them to simply overcome it sheerly by force of will. Sure, Jake is miserable but it’s his own fault, the text seems to say; if he’d just get his act together, like Dave, maybe he could get on with his life without being mind-broken by Dirk, or raped and whipped by Jane.

This isn’t even to delve into the flagship reveal of Homestuck 2, that Rose and Jade in the Candy Timeline have not only had a daughter of their own (without telling Kanaya), but that furthermore they have replicated their own trauma in her. Rose and Jade’s daughter has grown up completely emotionally alone, in the care of her Moms’ archenemy.

The point in all of this is not that the Epilogues have made everyone behave out of character or anything like that - I think it’s clear after a re-read especially that all of this is a conceivable direction that these characters could have taken. Rather, the Epilogues reliably choose to believe the worst of the characters of Homestuck in terms of their writing decisions. Everyone always makes the worst decision that they could make, or at the very least, nearly the worst. And because of the identification of reader and character, we can’t help but take away from that a sense that this is what the authors think of us as well.

And in case it wasn’t stated explicitly enough, a running theme throughout the Epilogues is that all this conflict and badness taking place is, to some extent or another, because we the audience are looking at it. As Andrew stated in relation to the Epilogues, there’s a kind of Happily Ever After possibility bubble around the characters that intrinsically collapses into conflict the moment we observe the events again - in other words, by participating in a story, we the audience members are somehow complicit in the characters’ suffering. Yet not all stories must be driven by conflict - and who triumphs and who fails in that conflict says a lot about what a story has to say about real life.

The Epilogues engage in a kind of voyeuristic cruelty, a kind of pessimism and cynicism, a kind of relentless ugliness that I have seldom seen, and to what end? The whole thing seems to me an attack on the audience.

Aside from general, abstracted claims toward authorial intent (which I think is there), I also want to say that, I can’t emotionally engage with the Epilogues, for a personal reason; as somebody who has struggled with almost daily suicidal ideation for most of my adult life, the way that the Epilogues deal with that subject goes from troubling to malicious and hostile in its treatment of Dirk’s suicide.

And staying personal, while I haven’t had to deal with some of the other sensitive topics that the Epilogues handle recklessly, handle them recklessly they do - Jake is serially raped by Jane, and in a way that he serves as a vehicle to move the plot forward, rather than with any kind of compassion for Jake’s condition. The possibility that Tavros Crocker might be being molested by Gamzee is brought up flippantly in one scene and played off as a joke.

The Homestuck Epilogues play at maturity through handling dark themes and sensitive topics, and reveal a profound immaturity in their authors because of the ways in which they are cruelly, insensitively handled over and over again.

I guess I’ll close with the least egregious thing. The Homestuck Epilogues just aren’t funny. Even at its bleakest, Homestuck has always been funny. In their relentless pursuit of cruelty, and the shared misery of their audience and characters, the Homestuck Epilogues forgo even this most basic element of Homestuck, which Andrew has always described as being basically a comedy.

Anyway; I will not be doing a thorough analysis of the Epilogues. I hate them too much and they suck.

#The Homestuck Epilogues #rape mention #suicide mention #fascism

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tanoraqui · 4 years

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I just wanted you to know that I just read all your hellmurder castle 'verse posts and I LOVE THAT AU SO MUCH

what you have to understand about my Hellmurder Castle AU (Homestuck set in the world of Girl Genius, if you haven’t read it) is that it was born specifically from my spite exasperation with all the long, epic AUs about either only the trolls or the trolls + beta kids, with alpha kids appearing as background characters at best and often not at all. Many of these fics are great, and many of them were written or at least planned before the alpha kids even appeared in canon, in which case it’s not the authors’ faults at all. But I LOVE my alpha kids, and Roxy may be my favorite and Dirk is a delight, but I was ALSO tired to tears of how even in fics featuring the alpha kids, it was almost always Derse-heavy.

So I basically said “fuck it”, yeeted them all into the world of Girl Genius (which was inevitable), figured out the torrid backstory of the beta kids and ancestors and how the dancestors and trolls fit in, and set about focussing the plot and character development exclusively on the alpha kids, particularly Jake and Jane. Particularly particularly Jake, because a) I thought him more underappreciated than Jane, and b) the idea of a Heroic Adventurer who constantly has to resist his own reflex to be a minion is fucking funny.

Let’s elaborate, shall we? Because I’m okay again, after the epilogue. I have forgiven. So, the hypothetical pfennig novels/fics in a series:

Jake English: Escape from Castle Lalonde

In which Jake leaves home, and meets a number of interesting people.

covers from basically that scene of Roxy capturing him through Jake escaping with Jane, and them agreeing to be adventuring partners. A lot of the middle consists of Jake helping Roxy and Dirk win back Roxy’s ancestral home of Castle Lalonde, defeating whatever villainous spark - probably an OC - had taken up residence.

Jake means to leave, but Roxy and Dirk need help cleaning up, and getting their labs running, and with interesting projects…and possibly they put a shock collar on him so he can’t leave the grounds…or at least tell him that’s what the collar does, and prove it, like, twice, and then turn it off because they don’t actually want him crippled in an emergency; mostly he’s just a great minion and Roxy is pretty sure he’s destined to be part of their team for defeating the Batterwitch, as laid out in the obscure and highly metaphorical prophecy her mother left her in a wizard book.

this is not at all good ground for either friendship or a healthy minion/master relationship, which is why Jake is pretty damn game to help Jane escape and then run away with her.

Jake English and the Red Miles

in which…I actually have barely any memory of wtf is supposed to happen in this one. Presumably, they have to survive the Red Miles at some point, with some ridiculous series of revivificationsthe trolls show up at Jake and Jane’s camp (okay fine, I love them, too), and after some alarmed mutual weapon-pointing, explain that Jake’s grandmother, Lady English, made them after Jake left, except now she’s died so they’ve come to find Jake and either bring him home or, at least, join his adventuring team and keep him safe

(yeah, Jade instilled some loyalty, which is Sketch. In fairness, when she lost control of the original generation of trolls, all her best friends were killed and/or disappeared, presumed dead. she has reasons)

I wonder if there was supposed to be a timeskip between this and the previous book, or if Escape from Castle Lalonde happened later into Jake going out adventuring than I think, or if Jade just got bored and made 12 new people like…3 hours after Jake left home

for pacing, the trolls should probably show up pretty early in this story, so they have a long time to be around before shit hits the fan

a lot of this book, aside from whatever shenanigans they’re dealing with re: Red Miles, would be Jake dealing with the fact that he is suddenly responsible for 12 people who keep looking to him for orders, and somewhere in the distance is an entire town (Hellmurder Village) that’s likewise.

they do not go back to the Castle at the end of this book, even though they arguably should bc Jake has responsibilities. But he also has adventuring to do, by golly, and…hm, it’s one of the Rings that causes the Red Miles, isn’t it? So maybe they get it at the end of this book, and now they have to track down the other one. Which brings us to…

Jake English and the Rings of Skaia

In which Jake and Jane (and Roxy and Dirk, and 12 young trolls) explore a castle, learn a little history, and generally level up their friendshipsI split up the aspects of Castle Heterodyne in this au: Jake has the recently inherited Castle with the terrifying, nigh-magical power source buried in its depths, and Jane has the abandoned derelict that is fully sentient, most automated, and even more malicious than it is trapped. This is the story of that castle, and the Ring of Life hidden somewhere in it

Jack Noir. The castle’s sentience is Jack Noir. Or perhaps more accurately Spades Slick? Who cares.

I had a very elaborate mythology/history thought up at some point about the twin spark queens of Derse and Prospit and their great enmity, and the saga of betrayal and heroism that marked their reigns and left behind this castle and two super magical scientific rings of power, and I do not remember ANY of it now.

This is the bit where that scene of Dirk ripping out Vriska’s soul comes from. He and Roxy are here for the fabled treasure as well - possibly the castle only appears/is accessible at certain specific times? And they don’t know the trolls are with Jake, so…clusterfuck, there.

Jake English and the Troll Queen

in which the big bad is reveeled

there’s trouble brewing in the countryside, idk, monsters or pirates or something that can be traced, after some investigative heroing, to the self-styled Her Imperial Condescension, still unfortunately at large

mostly this fic is Jake growing into leadering a little more but also addressing the question of that inbuilt loyalty Jade gave this generation of trolls, because really, that was Sketch - and in general, who are we as people defined by who we follow, what groups we ally ourselves with; is it birth or genetics or who raised us or the family we choose or…

i kinda think Dirk and Roxy are conducting concurrent but generally not overlapping investigations to Jake&Jane’s(+the trolls) (dirk and roxy having pretty neatly answered all the above questions years ago by choosing each other, but still being kind of insular about it, and need to relax just enough to trust other people)

in the end there’s some confrontation with the Condesce and she convinces ½-2/3 the trolls to join her bc, honestly, why shouldn’t they

Jake English and the Castle in the Lake

in which…okay, in this one bit of fic I implied her base was in the ocean but I totally had this title written somewhere, so what is the truth??

in the above linked scene, the trolls who stayed with Jake and Jane were Karkat, Terezi, Kanaya, Gamzee, and Feferi, but idk about that. If Feferi’s there, why isn’t Sollux? And, like, Aradia would probably have just fucked off in her own direction completely, given the chance…

our heroes are trying to sneak into HIC’s base and disable it, okay. that is the plot of this one. probably they have to find it first, which is tricky, and basically a D&D dungeon crawl, and that’s before Jane gets tiara’d. Which definitely happens climactically. and then everyone else gets captured, with the possible exception of Dirk, who probably gets beheaded instead. things do not look good for our heroes…

Jake English and the Lost Hero

in which we find out exactly what happened in the previous generation

maybe even alternating chapters, past/present?

what happened basically is that the first generation of trolls, the Ancestors, went absolutely batshit roughly as per homestuck canon. The Condesce, being OP, started just conquering land. She was stopped, eventually, mostly by the epic sacrifice of Rose and Dave. And John…except Rose and Dave’s bodies were found, and in a clusterfuck of inventions warping time and space and reality itself, John’s never was

Jade survived, of course. obviously.

John did, too, it is revealed. He was just disconnected from the time-space continuum, stuck popping up in random times and places, sometimes close to those he loved and sometimes not, mostly uncontrollable…

he’s appeared here and there throughout the stories, probably, a mysterious figure in blue who nearly has time to say something before dissolving into fizzing wind. Now he appears more frequently, and for longer periods as the story goes on, including just enough to help break Roxy and Jake out of prison. And whichever trolls were stubbornly sticking with them - if the Condesce wasn’t just mind-controlling all the reluctant ones…let’s be real, she was…lotta “I know you’re in there somewhere” fights here, probably

also, Vriska reveals herself to still be trying to help our heroes, because it is SO Vriska to try to double-cross Her fucking Imperious Condescension

this double-cross is revealed partly from her using Jake’s minioning safeword that he developed with Grandma Jade, way back when; meaning roughly “I don’t want to do this but I’m not sure I can stop”. It’s pumpkin, of course.

they revivify Dirk on the way out, and either stop in the Condesce’s lab to get sparkily distracted trying to pin John into reality or they make it back to Hellmurder Castle before doing that?

What am I saying. The Condesce is probably working on some spacetime-warping tech of her own, and Roxy, Dirk, and Jake use it to fully anchor John for the first time in…who knows, subjectively? It’s possible he stays behind to buy them time to run

Jake English and the Battle for the Green Sun

in which things come to a head

aka the Battle for Hellmurder Castle, and it’s mysterious and terrible power source

Jane and half or so of the trolls start out on the Condesce’s side, but if you thought there were good “I know you’re in there” fights before, just WAIT until Jake saves Jane with the power of friendship

ultimately, it’s alpha kids + Alternian trolls + dancestor-clanks VS Her Imperial Condescension

it’s close

it’s very close

I would have krilled for an H–EIR—ESS CHALLENGE X3 COMBO, ie, Jane, Feferi, and Meenah vs. the Condesce, so that happens

John maybe appears one last time-displaced time, for him before the events of Lost Hero, to deliver a well-timed hammer swing

I love Jake, but I’ll give Homestuck this one: Roxy getting the final blow with an ancestral Strider sword? Perfect.

in the denoument Jake awkwardly invites everyone to live in Hellmurder Castle, because he feels vaguely like he should stay and look after it, and of course he wants his chums around. Jane, Roxy, and Dirk are all like, “well, a real lab or seven would be amazing…but also…adventuring. Why don’t YOU come with US?” Jake is like, “oh JEEPERS yes!” The trolls and dancestors meanwhile talk out among themselves who genuinely wants to stay and who wants to go out adventuring, either with these idiots or just to make their own way

#homestuck #girl genius #jake english #jane crocker #roxy lalonde #dirk strider #hellmurder castle au #my fic #ficlet #ministro spei #virgine vitae #hs trolls #dancestors #latrone nihil #duce animi #random anon asks

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wak-after-dark · 4 years

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Still not able to come up with an argument about the Epilogue treating Gamzee (the murderous corpse molester) better than Jade (sat around for 3 years with depression only to have a dog dick and then be abandoned by her friends) huh? Guess you're just an idiot and willingly sucking Hussie's dick for a job at Whatpumpkin down the line. Maybe write some incest porn like IPDG and you'll get hired.

Wow get a load of this guy.

Okay I should probably just delete your comments and not give you the time of day, but you’ve been periodically sending me this kind of ask, and I really have to ask, do you really, really believe you’re someone with some sort of Moral High Ground right now? Like I’m not even defending the Epilogues as masterpieces or trying to shove them down people’s throats. I am literally just enjoying the content the WP Team put out and talking about it, and you come to my Inbox, to spew this accusatory nonsense and flinging insults. If you can’t read the Epilogues in a positive manner, and think they’re dogshit, sure, go ahead, but you’re like, trying to act like I’m some sort of brainwashed sheep and you’re trying to make me see the light. Also “Still not able to come up with an argument“ very passive-aggressive there, I have talked about the Epilogues, my opinions and takes on them, and how I feel about the way they deal with characters at LARGE here, if you haven’t bothered to look for the info, and the several responses to some of your asks, then don’t blame me for it. But sure. Let me talk about every single point you JUST mentioned here like some sort of big Masterpost, and when you don’t agree with my point either way, stop fucking harassing me on Anon, seriously you alone have been making me consider turning anon off entirely, which all things considered may just be the healthiest option I could consider, but here I am!

Okay let’s begin with Homestuck proper. Gamzee is a Villain. He’s framed as such, people have constantly shown backlash against his character because he’s got fans that would like to see him redeemed, since a good chunk of his story happens with him brainwashed or mind-altered in some sort, but every time he’s shown to go back to doing awful things and killing people. He abuses Terezi, kills Karkat, and gets killed by Kanaya in return in one Timeline, and in another he gets locked up in a fridge, ends up in Caliborn’s planet, and trying to serve his Lord just gets beaten up, shot, left half-dead, until his final appearance in which he gets cut in half and absorbed into Lord English. Then, the Epilogues happen, and he becomes the butt of a joke about undeserved redemption arcs. His very existence in Candy is a joke that he’s not worth redeeming, actually, but tries to force himself to ‘seem’ like he has, despite ruining Dirk’s funeral, making Jake and Tavros’ lives miserable, supporting a Fascist ruler, taking advantage of a potential minor, and it all ends up with him being choked, killed, and his corpse being used as a Weekend at Bernie’s joke. Like... Is that really what you consider ‘good treatment of a character’? He gets away with a lot of bullshit, but he’s like. Constantly, and consistently, shown to be unpleasant, gross and awful. Like. He’s an awful person, and a comic relief, that does fucked up shit for most of his appearance, and I am not sure how any of this can be read in any sort of positive light. I’ve seen Gamzee fans MAD at how much he gets shat on.

Meanwhile, let’s take Jade. A huge theme of her character, sadly, is loneliness and isolation. I dislike that, like many Jade fans. She’s forced into depressingly helpless situations where she lacks agency or control over her own body, or the situation she’s in, and it’s shown affecting her greatly. I want my girl to be happy as well. So when the Epilogues came, and had her getting Callie-possessed, that was bad, it was like, AGAIN she gets the shaft. I want her to be happy and do what she wants to do and be badass with her powers! But- Oh wait, none of that is what you’re complaining about!!! You keep insisting on the Dog Dick instead of any of the genuinely heartbreaking things that happen to her. Jade has a dog dick. It is mentioned once in the entire Epilogues. It mildly affects her desire to have a child with Dave, but she doesn’t even shown herself that broken up about it, and had been looking about potential alternatives, even having Rose as a surrogate. There’s not a single joke made in the Epilogues about her HAVING a dog dick, nor any sort of isolation that happens as a product of her genitalia. Is it a weird choice to canonize that headcanon? Yeah! It kind of is! But this is also a reality where Obama and Dirk make out. And if someone is uncomfortable about Jade having a dog dick, or doesn’t like her being more openly sexual, then that’s fine!!! If they have a transphobic read on Jade, that’s fine!!! You can dislike it, and Homestuck, and the Epilogues, and the writers! But I, as a trans woman myself, and one who’s horny on main a lot of the time, liked the freedom Jade expressed to just do whatever she wanted with new partners on Earth C, and her seeming acceptance and lack of conflict at just, having junk. She does fuck up with Dave and Karkat, because she pushes them a bit too hard, specially Karkat, trying to use the Quadrant System to insert herself in a Black relationship. In Candy, this culminates with political tensions breaking Karkat away from the triad, which is bad for everyone involved. But in Meat, Jade states that they can tell her to just stop and she will, because she genuinely likes both Karkat and Dave, but their feelings are too deeply bottled and complex to just come to light. Does this put some tension in her relationship with them? Yeah! Does this ISOLATE her from her friends? No! Karkat and Dave DO still wanna hang out with her even if she’s a bit too much. John and Jade apparently chat online a bunch, and Jake seemed to have a good relationship with Jade before the whole Jane thing. She is close enough with Rose and Kanaya that Rose considered the surrogate mother thing. She has friends and ties! The major things that happen to isolate her is, Karkat leaving- Caused by Jane’s rise to power- Dave dying- Caused by Ultimate Self Timeline Shenanigans- And being possessed by Callie- All things outside of her control. I want her to get her agency back, but beyond that, her, as a person on Earth C, was not abandoned by her friends, and your obsession over her dog dick as a root of her issues and the bad stuff that happens to her says more about you than about the Epilogues in my opinion.

Guess you're just an idiot and willingly sucking Hussie's dick for a job at Whatpumpkin down the line. Maybe write some incest porn like IPDG and you'll get hired.

You know what? Yeah I would love to have a role at WhatPumpkin. Because I’ve seen the people working at it do other things, and I’ve seen their passion for Homestuck. The people currently doing Homestuck love Homestuck, and this is not up for fucking debate. As for the incest porn thing? Fuck you. Fuck you, fuck you, and a thousand fucking times fuck you. Once again, trying to get some stupid moral high ground mentioning incest. “Oh look at me, I am criticizing someone for something they wrote years ago”, is how you actually sound, and that’s only on the surface. V from Homestuck was never confirmed to be ipgd. V got harassed, and ‘doxxed’ by dubious sources and, I believe, Kiwifarms shit was going on at that time, so that was extremely shady and shitty. And the result of them being equated ended with ipgd being told to kill themself because of old fic they’d written, which, GUESS WHAT, was actually a critic to the way Incest was extremely popular in Fanfic back then, written by ipgd themself, a god damn survivor of that same bullshit they wrote about!!! Congratulations! THAT is the kind of bullshit people like you pull. You just cling to some idea of what’s right and wrong, and end up hurting real people that’ve gone through real shit, instead of considering nuance to your actions and thinking that, HMM, PERHAPS I SHOULD NOT HARASS SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET BECAUSE THEY DID SOMETHING I DON’T LIKE OR HAVE AN OPINION I DON’T AGREE WITH! But nah, let’s go send death threats to people we don’t like, riiiiiiight????

My fandom wish for homestuck 2 is the characters are treated with respect but since every single one of the new authors hate women and only want dirk and jake as well as Dave and Karkat to fuck on screen while Vriska gets comphet child raped by gamzee why bother lol.

Like, I don’t even know what to say. Have you seen like... The rest of the work the WP Team is doing with Homestuck stuff? Addressing actual issues? Doing right by the characters? Acknowledging their fucked up stuff while also showing them in positive lights? A good chunk of the Team, too, is queer? Like if they were all cis straight dudes I could see your complaint but they just. Aren’t??? At all???? Even Taz, who’s probably the biggest Dirk-Jake fan around, absolutely wants the best for other characters, yes, Jade and Rose included, you are just too jaded and blinded by your perception of the Epilogues. Vriska and Gamzee... Yeah that’s iffy. I am not going to defend that, whether it was a mistake with the ages or it was just Gamzee being more awful, that was extremely nasty. There’s also like, suicide and abuse and dictatorship in the Epilogues though. All of this shit that happens is awful, but also it’s not PROMOTING it or saying it’s a good thing? It’s... Fucked up. Comphet though, I dooooooooo want to elaborate on that, because, while I do like the reading of Vriska as being more into women, she does show a near-consistent fascination for Nic Cage and, then, ARquius as someone with a similar aesthetic? Like don’t get me wrong, Vris-Rezi is absolutely the way to go and the healthy thing for Vriska, but also I am not 100% sure if you can gloss over every single one of her relationships with guys as Comphet? (Compbi? Since it’s Trolls) Not to say it justifies anything with Gamzee, that was just nasty. But I feel there’s nuance to talk about Vriska’s sexuality.

Hussie doesn't like his fans or care about Homestuck, how you can read the Epilogue and say the opposite it honestly insane and a complete bold faced lie. Any author that cares about their work would read someone demanding a character be given a dog dick and say no. Any author who cares about their work and their fans wouldn't have released such a purposely bad and painful epilogue and then demand payment for a resolution. Just give up. That's the moral of Homestuck. Give up. It's pointless.

Nah man, you’re just jaded and hurt and projecting. Hussie and the WP Team love Homestuck. It would’ve been so fucking easy to just stop doing Homestuck and move onto something, not even release an Epilogue. It’s like when Homestuck ended. People accused Hussie of a rushed ending with Act 7 back in the day, of disliking Homestuck and the Fans, of having just wrapped it up quickly, but like... If you want to wrap Homestuck up quickly... There were a million fan theories and endings out around that would’ve been so much simpler, easier and basic than what we got. The fact we got Act 7 and all it entailed, the shit the characters go through the Epilogues, of course a lot of awful shit happens, but like... Precisely? If you’re tired of doing something, you just wrap things up. You don’t set up new plot points and mess with the characters and push a new narrative outlook on something. This is the work of an experimental team that still do love the content and characters. Again, you return to the fucking Dog Cock like it’s the biggest sin the Epilogues commit. You haven’t even mentioned Jane’s fascism a single time, but you’ve mentioned Jade’s Dog Fucking Cock like fucking twenty times. Who the fuck cares about what sort of junk Jade has, the Epilogues themselves barely even care, it’s mentioned in the passing and it hardly affects a THING at all. You ask me how I can ‘read the Epilogues and see the opposite of what they say’, and I ask you the exact same thing, because despite all the awful things that happen, Rose and Kanaya keep fighting against tyranny in Candy. Kanaya realizes she’s been brainwashed and chases after Rose because she’s NOT giving up on her wife. Roxy explores their gender identity and finds new things about themself. Karkat gets to live his rebel leader dreams in one Timeline, although with a bitter split from Dave, but ends up together in a proper relationship in Meat. John’s arc in Candy about feeling isolated from a world that seems fake, before realizing his nihilism has hurt the people he cares about and wanting to fix it. Jake’s morale of ‘better late than never’, working up the courage to take Tavros away from Jane- And in HS^2, working as a double-agent trying to sabotage Jane from within? Jane’s been shown at her worst in candy, but in Meat she’s shown to still be redeemable, and that’s exactly what the team’s aiming to do, too.

Like... I can see all the bad stuff that happens. And I find the reactions of the characters to these awful situations are interesting, and the political conflict among friends and the pushing forward in such a dark situation, resonates with me, personally, and some of my own experiences? Not to say, the Epilogues are a Game Over scenario? They are a low point. HS^2 sets up to be the high point. Like... When Game Over happened, a lot of people were like “Welp, Hussie just killed everyone, lol, guess he just got tired of Homestuck”, despite the Retcon Powers being there as the obvious solution. Epilogues, lots of shit happen, and similarly there’s still like a hundred ways to build up from there to a satisfactory resolution? Storytelling can have low points you know. It hurts when it’s characters you care about, duh, specially when it plays into the weaknesses they already acknowledged but fell into again despite themselves. I see why so many people would dislike them and take a more negative vibe from them than they actually convey. But I am still baffled as to why people like you feel entitled to shit on the WP Team and send harassment and insults to people who do enjoy them. You’re not helping anything. You’re not doing anything good. You’re just being a dick.

As for the “demand a payment for a resolution”, they didn’t demand anything? I will be the first one to say that I don’t like the Extra Bonus for 5 bucks, and think it would be better if the Bonus got released like, a month or two after it has for Patrons, an ‘early access’ scenario like I do with my Patreon. And I hope they change this. But aside from that??? The Patreon is optional to support the creators because, it’s not just Hussie, it’s a big team, and they’re also using the Patreon to help them with other projects like Pesterquest and Hiveswap, because we live in a capitalistic hell world and need money to be able to pursue passion projects. The main updates every month- And twice a month starting February- Are completely free for people to read, still, the paywalled content still circulates around the community despite being paywalled, and other paid projects like, Pesterchum, for their scope and the amount of fun they’ve given me, they’re super cheap and worth it.

You ask me how I can ‘see the opposite the Epilogues say’, you tell me that I am an ‘idiot sucking Hussie’s dick for a job at WP’, you act like I am scum and brainwashed and there’s literally no reason why I should ever like something you don’t.

You know what I am though? I am happy and excited about the things I’ve been given! I am happy with the representation I’ve seen the Team push lately. I’m happy with the way the characters have been treated in Pesterquest and have high hopes for HS^2. And I am interested in the events of the Epilogues, while acknowledging that of course a lot of fucked up shit happened in them.

Back when the Epilogues happening and I was reading them, I was reading Candy at like 4 AM and was LOVING the fucked up-ness of the Timeline and wondering what may happen in Meat. I got a PM from a friend asking me to make a channel in a server I’m in, to quarantine Epilogues Discourse, and was genuinely confused as to why there was Discourse going on. I went through the rest of Candy and Meat with some dread waiting for some ball to drop and something to turn really controversial, and I finished them still enjoying them? Obviously there was a lot of awful shit. Obviously there was a lot of things people wouldn’t like. Obviously they were tales that likely alienated a chunk of the Fandom that was looking for a happy ending. But honestly, the unbridled fury and subsequent harassment of people over them is just plain embarrassing. It was confusing then, and it’s even more confusing now, well over half a year since their release, and still sending random Tumblr Blogs this kind of bullshit.

So there you go! All of your questions and your bullshit, answered! Now let’s get this out of the way: You’re not going to like my answer, you’re not going to agree with a majority of what I just said, you’re not going to CARE about any of what I just said. Spare me the fucking asks and anon hate. Just move on and do something productive with your time.

#Homestuck #Epilogues #Discourse #HSE #After Dark #Anon Hate #Long Post #Longpost

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bladekindeyewear · 4 years

Photo

Freed up some time, actually! Gonna blog the new pages of HS^2. Liveblogging resume...

FYI, the post I glimpsed that alerted me to the fact that new pages exist had a translucent screenshot of Brain Ghost Dirk on it, so I know that at least is in store for me. Makes sense; a way to involve Dirk’s voice obnoxiously heavily even when he’s too far away to narrate. And ties into this... chapter(?) name, of course. Chapters, huh?

> CHAPTER 1. Ghostflusters

God. Damnit.

Could we NOT??? No?

Fuck you, Dirk. I blame you for this.

So we have greenery, a can-city and Sburb-legal human house mix... some sorta cow-looking thing from far away in the front yard...

The void resounds. Space seizes and warps as the bounds of relevance erode away to nothing but the wishful nostalgia of times passed. There is a hole in the middle of the universe, and it is hungry.

All very literally true.

But the denizens of this particular iteration of Earth C don’t know it. All of this is just business as fucking usual for a planet plagued by war, continuous inclement ghost weather, and the general malaise of being absolutely severed from canon.

--oh, FUCK. This isn’t the new planet, this is Candy timeline Earth. I didn’t wanna come back here! :C

I guess that explains most of the content warnings. Except fucking ALCOHOLISM. Gee, thanks for adding THAT to the Candy timeline, as if it wasn’t fucked over enough!!! Bluh.

I thought the closing lines of the Epilogue were that after RoboDave, Aradia and alt!Callie dove out of the Candyverse inside the singularity, the black-hole timelines and Dirk’s presumably-still-”relevant” nonsense weren’t going to collide with each other again? So... why are we seeing this? Is there going to be MORE influence like that, and the ending line was just fancy-talk? Is it just an irrelevant little follow-up to Candy to show things turning out okay or pseudo-okay, like an epilogue to the epilogue? Or is some of this Dirk nonsense presumably within the bounds of some sort of canon going to still have some last bit of influence on this so-called non-canon timeline?

That last one would make sense, given that it echoes how Homestuck^2′s dubious canonicity would still have definite influence on fanworks outside of canon. Right?

Let me pull that last line from the epilogues again--

...where’s the Epilogues’ log, this is getting kind of hard to find with all their reorganization... fuck, I had to guess at the URL even. Here we go, the last page of Meat...

The hole leaves behind an absence in the sky so calm that continuing to call it a sky wouldn’t seem to do it justice. It’s a perfectly neutral expanse into which anything one can imagine might be summoned. And for a while, anything was. But not anymore. Where the hole gaped just moments ago, there now exists an imaginary line.

Above this line resides all that matters. Below exists all else. Never again the twain shall meet.

...Right. This implies that Canon and Non-Canon shall never meet again. BOTH ways. Doesn’t quite gel with the fact that we’re cutting back here--

Oh.

This is about Jake and Brain Ghost Dirk isn’t it. I noticed his name down further on the page. THAT’S why we’re cutting back here.

So, Canon and Non-Canon aren’t exactly meeting... not for anything relevant, anyway. But we’re using Candy Jake’s visibility of Brain Ghost Dirk to get a better idea of Dirk’s broader self and plans through a splinter of him? While getting another glimpse into how the post-epilogue Candy timeline is going for our, er... “curiosity”? Is that it?

Hm. I guess that doesn’t count as the twain “meeting”... I’ll just keep reading now.

They spend their days absorbed in the petty and pointless pursuits of “having jobs” and “raising families” and “falling in love”.

Is this Dirk’s narrator voice? This sounds like something the current megalomaniacal Dirk would say.

I’m not going to quote the rest of the text’s further reminders of how Jane has been made into an absolutely fucked-over asshole in every timeline except the one where she grew old to open a Joke shop, adopt Dad, die, get prototyped and timeline-doubled, then mysteriously disappear from any mention in the Epilogues as if the Sprites were just forgotten about completely eventually.

> (==>)

Oooh, using the less-relevance-surrounding-parens that were used on retconned ghost!Vriska back in Homestuck proper to denote our presence in the non-canon Candy timeline? How handy!

Not a far-away cow, then.

John has been an incredible pal, opening up his home to Jake and his son on such short notice, and even offering him a pair of pants, as well as a shirt that he has so far neglected to put on.

Alright, that got a chuckle from me.

John’s house doesn’t have air conditioning.

What the flying fuck.

...Ah, John’s been away patching things up with Roxy some more, I presume.

It, like the rest of his assets, is in her name. She’d seen to that as soon as they were married.

Life players and assets, huh? Always gotta be hoggin’ em.

He hasn’t seen much of Tavros today either, but that’s not unusual. He’s probably out with his kismesis, the one he thinks Jake doesn’t know about.

Huh. Maybe Candy’s young Vriska? Couldn’t get the real Tavros with your main self, so your alternate nigh-clone self settled with a human by the same name? Or one of the other kids we heard of from this ‘verse..?

> (==>)

Jake’s hot man-bod cropped out of this image to avoid titillating my readers too much.

(Tumblr keeps jumping back to the top of my post after I add images and I keep thinking the title reads “Ghostfuckers”.)

Jake washes the dirt out from under his fingernails, and his eyes fall on the bottle still sitting on the counter. John had opened it, but together they’d barely touched the stuff. Jake had promised him and Tavvy he’d dry up his act and all, but... well.

God damnit. If this is still Dirk-voiced narration -- I’m not sure it can be, now I think about it, as he’s supposed to be “out of range” or something, unless non-canon is just malleable like that, which wouldnt be surprising (or Dirk’s splinter’s presence allows it) -- he could literally be inducing or writing in Jake’s drinking problem just to hurt him more. You can’t really put an overstep that assholish past Prince Dirk the way he’s gotten to be.

There was another ask in my inbox insisting that Dirk wasn’t going to stay the true villain here, if only as some sort of karmic revenge for declaring his self-importance... but I still don’t think that’s the case. For one, Dirk HASN’T declared himself the villain... he still can’t see how fucked-up and unjustified his trampling over of everyone’s wills IS. Shadows of recognition... but not really. He really honestly believes he has the fucking RIGHT to do what he’s doing.

(Which is, incidentally -- to answer another ask -- why there’s basically NO chance that Rose has some sort of control or recognition of her situation under the surface, and is playing Dirk, as another person hopefully surmised. No. She really IS being unknowingly steered away from personal growth and recognition of the thought-control she’s under... because nothing less could feel as horrible to us.)

Part of the entire POINT of Homestuck and its Riddle was to show that these crazy kids, if they put their wills to it, always had the potential to be the literal Gods of the world around them. That when ordinary people grasp the will and drive to shape the world around them, they can turn everything back from the brink of destruction... or vice versa. Thus, it’s only appropriate that a player from this game could become a villain more disgusting than any we’d imagined in the series so far. What he’s been doing -- writing twisted sorrow directly into the lives and experiences of those around him, nurturing their worst, most power-hungry tendencies (Rose) and deceiving them more directly than Doc Scratch (who was PART Dirk) ever did, making a JOKE of their free will in a more terribly direct way than ANY have been shown onscreen to do?? It IS, and is MEANT to be, the worst we have EVER seen in Homestuck. Not as clumsy and from-the-outside as Lord English, but just as blatantly direct. Not as easy to ignore or mistake as Doc Scratch’s horrible, intentional Prince-of-Hearty worsening of the players, instead just as impossible to gloss-over as it is to bear witness to. That very TITLE, “Prince of Heart”, can embody the very ANTITHESIS of the Ultimate Riddle itself, robbing EVERYONE of their ability to shape not just the world around them, but even so much as themselves or their very thoughts. When used the way Dirk is using it RIGHT NOW, anyway. And his ambition is to impose this on all of Paradox Space.

There COULD be another villain, later. But I can’t imagine a single one more appropriate. And Andrew’s just the type to use one of the Striders, both practically self-inserts of parts of his personality and presence, as that ultimate villain to be overcome in a story about escaping Canon, too.

Turning his ex into an alcoholic just for his own self-satisfaction? In a side timeline where Jake didn’t even try a relationship with him again and finally had a chance to grow up happy in SOME universe? I wouldn’t put it past him, and you shouldn’t either.

Moving on.

> (==>)

Eugh. I just... don’t want to think about him being an alcoholic on TOP of everything else. As if there wasn’t enough to deal with in Candy already.

> (==>)

Hm?

> (==>)

The jungle air is heavy, humid, and familiar. Twenty years on and the thick drag into his lungs settles on him in a blanket of nostalgia, reassuring in its discomfort.

Hm. Is this his fantasy, or a view of him in another timeline?

He is deeper in the jungle than he’d ever venture in his waking hours. There were places on his island that not even his Gran would tread, and she’d been the bravest person he’d ever known.

Hmm. So he even knows it’s a dream, but is still in control...

Jake doesn’t recognize anything. The jungle of his dreams is wild and unknown, and there are things moving in the dense undergrowth.

...Hhhuh. Still not sure what to think of this yet.

A sudden wind thrashes the canopy. There are pine needles in his mouth. There aren’t any pine needles in the jungle.

Very Dream, then.

> (==>)

--Yup.

> (==>)

Yoink--

> (==>)

JAKE: Yes you are i know that much. I saw your body! I carried your coffin chock full of all those stupid fucking swords! DIRK: Nope. JAKE: Dont nope me mister!

They would pile all those shitty swords into his coffin, yeah.

Anyway, now to see how much Prince Dirk is in this Dirk. And if he’s in one mind with himself or has the slightest chance of feeling rebellious.

JAKE: I know a dead dirk when i see one! DIRK: Sure you do. But that wasn’t me. Are you really surprised to find out I got a couple of spares? JAKE: So what youre saying is you arent my dirk. DIRK: ...That is a whole ‘nother conversation that we really don’t have time for, pertaining to exactly who or what ‘your dirk’ actually constitutes. DIRK: Do you mean the Dirk from your timeline? DIRK: Then yes, that Dirk is dead. DIRK: If you mean the Dirk that you fucked and then ghosted, no, I’m not your Dirk. DIRK: If you mean the Dirk that you felt closest to, that you really knew--

...well, this Dirk still knows how to be a presumptuous, pushy creep. :(

JAKE: Ahhh! Brain ghost dirk! DIRK: In the ghosty flesh. JAKE: Crumbs bro where have you been? JAKE: I could have used someone on my side! JAKE: You just disappeared one day without even the odd toodaloo to mark your passing! DIRK: That isn’t strictly true. I did disappear, but it was in a catastrophic blaze of hope-drenched pathos. I even threw out a couple one-liners. DIRK: But you wouldn’t remember that. JAKE: Because...it was a different dirk? DIRK: No, a different Jake.

Hhhuh. So in the claymation-reproduced Lord English stagefight -- or, maybe more likely, the pre-retcon Aranea-induced Game Over timeline -- he was too washed out by hopesplosions to manifest properly?

DIRK: Until recently there’s been a shortage of ambient narrative relevance for Dirks, since one particular motherfucker has been sucking it all up like a thirsty little twink at his first interspecies rave.

Hm! So Prince Dirk has been making it so other splinters of himself have really limited ability to influence, huh? Guess that’s a sort of price for the narrative-hijacking power he’s attained. Wonder how this Dirk really feels about that.

> (==>)

--Pff. He’s certainly not shy about letting Jake know he shouldn’t trust him, though! That’s a good sign.

I’ll split the post here for a bit. Seems we’re about halfway through this upd8 from the look of the log.

#Homestuck #hs2 #Homestuck Liveblog #upd8 #bladekindeyewear #blastyoboots

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insertdisc5 · 5 years

Text

homestuck epilogues stuff

thoughts about the homestuck epilogues, as in, spoilers and theories and things ive noticed by reading it over twice and talking with friend @kravicle while they were reading

this is just a list of theories me and krav came up with ok. also stuff u might not pick up in only one read? we’re just spitballing here

MEAT AND CANDY TEREZI ARE PROBABLY ONE AND THE SAME

> just didnt see proof they weren't the same lmao, we only get john+terezi's messages from both timelines and she could have gotten messages from both meat!john and candy!john

>time is fucked on her end also so (shrugs)

>(terezi meeting meat!john) "something else is different about him. different, somehow, from how she thought he’d be when she imagined they’d next meet. under all the gore, he smells... too fresh."

>TEREZI: HMMM

TEREZI: YOU SM3LL OLD3R

TEREZI: BUT NOT 4S OLD 4S 1 THOUGHT YOUD B3

JOHN: what does that mean?

TEREZI: DONT WORRY 4BOUT 1T

>"In multiple realities, all [John] wanted for her was this. To be home safe, with all their friends. And now that she’s here, she’s lost."

> (meeting Meat!roxy) "Terezi’s head is filled with stories about a different version of Roxy—the polar opposite of the one standing in front of her."

DIRK’S PLAN PART 1 (free will)

>maybe plans to get Actual Free Will thru ultimate godhood??? also explains why he feels okay with removing free will from his friends- for him, this isnt real free will anyway?

>(dirk talking about kanaya) "What WAS she thinking? What are any of us thinking, really? Who’s doing the thinking, and who’s having the thoughts?

The more you study the question, the more it seems all concrete forms of accountability go up in smoke. Her original thoughts were never that important, and the significance of the idea that she was the one authoring them was always a bit overrated. My mission is to someday clear this all up for everyone. Remove the ambiguity, suck the mud out of the water. It’ll be a lot better that way, trust me."

>to old callie, dirk's plan "[john’s] ultimate sacrifice was made to put the missing keystone in place and avert the supreme dissipation of all that shall be considered to hold truth, relevance, and essentiality."

>although narrator callie thinks this world has some sort of actual free will. says "[john should kiss terezi etc]. it’s wrong to contradict one’s true thoughts and feelings. irrational. unbecoming of an existence governed by free will."

>his plan to give everyone/ultimate gods “free will” will end up destroying canon????

DIRK’S PLAN PART 2 (complacency of the learned, ultimate self)

>complacency of the learned, 12 people attaining ultimate knowledge (=ultimate self), and turning "either insane or evil"

> (candy ending, rose’s POV) "The thoughts in her powerful brain race. What will they name the planet? How long will it take for the ship to arrive? Once the new race has established an advanced enough civilization thousands of years from now, who will the lucky kids be? The ones who get the chance to play what will arguably be the most important session in the history of Sburb?"

>finding more people to attain ultimate godhood???

>dirk asks terezi to come with him and rose at the end of meat, along with john's body (implied that she did accept-callie!jade points and dave thinks she points both to dirk+rose and john+terezi, callie doesnt prove him otherwise)

>dirk wants 12 ultimate gods for each aspect????

>"If your perception expands beyond the meat sack of your body, then are you really an individual anymore? Why shouldn’t we become gods? Why shouldn’t we become one God."

- (callie speaking) "[John] is simply being barred from ignoring his true thoughts. even without the aid of a juju, he is fortunate enough to be blessed with the only true form of divinity. to be released from the prison of nonsensical inhibitions which so often psychologically hobble the more primitive forms of life."

>callie is probably an ultimate god, terezi should be?? with rem8mb8r?

DIRK’S NARRATOR STUFF

>dirk probably doesnt know hes in a story/that he has an audience (us) "How can I respect a fucking pronoun when nobody can even hear me?”

>does dirk control people by using you-ness? using 2nd person to control, 3rd person to narrate?

>”JADE: and where there is an identity, there can also be an agenda.”

CANDY TIMELINE STUFF

>part of the black hole, a utopia, place removed from reality/canon in some way??? WEIRDO DREAM BUBBLE????

>cut off from canon in some way- dirk and rose cant get to ultimate godhood anymore, john cant use retcon powers

>candy!john mentions multiple times he doesnt think of him and his friends as "real"

>sky in candy!timeline described as more vibrant (VS pre-sburb being described as muted)

>candy!karkat talking to sollux and probably being foreshadowing without knowing: “KARKAT: I THOUGHT THAT YOU TWO LITERALLY DIDN’T EXIST ANYMORE! KARKAT: OR AT THE VERY LEAST WERE TRAPPED IN A DEAD UNIVERSE PERPETUALLY COLLAPSING INTO ITS OWN ASSHOLE.”

>CALLIOPE: we’re all going to be very, very happy. I trUly believe that. ^u^

>ROSE: Oh Kanaya, you’re right.

ROSE: We are going to be so astonishingly happy!

>ROXY: omg

ROXY: were gonna be SO freakin happy!

>Dirk in Meat: "Cherubs are fuckin’ weird, I’ll totally concede. Still not sure what makes them tick. What they idealize, what they really want. It all comes across to me as a little cloying. Perfection to them is a sweetness beyond comprehension. Sugar so potent it’s poison to us. To our bodies, to our souls. Like the place she was operating from was a realm of self-construction. A bubble of pure, phantasmal confection."

>end of meat!callie can see into candy!timeline ROXY: they stay home all day with the blinds drawn paintin some weird ass shit on the walls

TEREZI: WH4T?

ROXY: its not as bad as it sounds i promise

ROXY: some of it is like

ROXY: weird and violent??

ROXY: like lotsa nasty purple blood and um

ROXY: nudity????

TEREZI: >:?

ROXY: yeah yikes

ROXY: but MOST of it is cute stuff like... various combos of all of us being happy and gettin married and shit

>obama’s here. god i need a minute

>dirk told gamzee something???

“DAVE: wheres dirk

GAMZEE: tHeRe’S nO nEeD tO wOrRy AbOuT hIm. :o)

GAMZEE: YoU’rE gOnNa GeT wHaT’s BeSt FoR yOu. He ToLd Me ThAt, AnD i’M gOnNa MaKe SuRe HiS wIsH mAkEs LiKe A mOtHeRfUcKiNg MiRaClE aNd GeTs TrUe.

[...]

GAMZEE: YoU dOn’T gOt AnY nEeD tO gO aNd CoNcErN yOuRsElF wItH hIs MoRtAl FlEsH bOdY oUt HeRe In ThIs CaNdYcAnE wHiRlPoOl BeYoNd ThE iNfInItE bLaCk WiNk Of ThE wIcKeD sInGuLaRiTy, My NiNjA.

GAMZEE: a SaCk Of MeAt AnD bOnEs In OnE lIfE oR tHe NeXt Is OnLy A mEaNs To ThE fInAl ToTaLiTy ThAt WiLl DaMn AnD rAiSe Us AlL iN bRiLlIaNt ApOtHeOsIs.

GAMZEE: In ThE oNe TrUe LiFe We AlL fLoW fRoM tHe OnE tRuE pEn,

GAMZEE: aNd EvErY hEaD rOlLs DoWn ThE pAtH tO tHe OnE tRuE hAnD.”

> dirk before killing himself: “ It is the very last moment of narratively consequential action that will happen in this whole, barren world. “

OTHER STUFF

> dirk teaching men about "combat, philosophy, life, love." (jake, dave, obama, not said explicitly but also probably gamzee????) what is UP with that

>gamzee also wanting to teach kid tavros about combat philosophy life love, “to behave the way a mentor does”

>re: john “Your complete lack of remarkability, specific motivation, drive, opinion on where to direct your own fate—these deficiencies are exactly what made you so useful, so susceptible to being endowed with the you-ness I’ve borrowed to satisfy my purposes.”

>at the end of meat, callie in jade's body in candy timeline kills lord english and gets big powers or whatever. cherub stuff

>terezi gets a text at the end of Meat, we dont know from whom (candy!(vriska)?)

>john left letters for everyone in Meat but no one’s found them yet?

>snapchats were probably before the split

>this whole post makes both me and krav sound like we’re been talking about this for 24 hours straight (we did)

#homestuck #upd8 #homestuck epilogue #homestuck epilogues #maybe this will help someone whos better at writing down stuff lmao #our brains hurt #DONT @ ME I DONT WANNA THINK ABOUT THE EPILOGUE ANYMORE #but yes i did love the epilogues thank u #this also isnt art im sorry

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theorynexus · 4 years

Text

Fudge, I already did 57/ Now I have to do 58/ 13 over 12, man / I guess we’re doing human stuff instead of trolling, today.

Coincidentally via some sort of textual wonder possibly related to authorial intent and/or miracles, we now have to focus on Roxy, now. Somewhat ironic, considering Terezi just said she and John wouldn’t work out. ...

***shift eyes, something about knowing the unknowable and the vagueries thereof, possible interference by the new Narrator, et cetera*** Hmmm~

What, so black holes cause suck up all the voidiness into themselves via proximity?! Noooo~ Who’d have thought! (In all seriousness, that gives some interesting resonance mechanic relation, here. I want to know whether it’s just Alt!Calliope that can sense said thoughts, if it’s just Roxy being over-emotional, or if any other observer would be able to pick such thoughts up and it’s just a mater of proxy-imity.)

Okay, then. I thought the point of this was to look like a completely passive observer and not tip people off other than via the black eyes, but you do you, I guess-- if that’s intentional. Nice gazing out through the fourth wall, though. I’m sure Jade would be/is vaguely proud, knowing the narrative resonance, here, given her own fourth wall breaking shenanigans.

I blame time and void interactions. Also Dave being an insufferable prick. Good to know, regarding Roxy and their feelings toward Dave, though.

Is Dirk going to literally shoot him in the arse? That would be horribly ironic, and probably quite crippling to Joke Jake’s reputation and/or the power of his endorsement, if so. Semi-related: I do sortof understand Dave’s belief/concern with regards to the importance of this event. What I want to know is why there are not thousands of Daves running around, all helping the campaign and being available to deal with other important tasks.

“Iced” cream is the best fricking thing, Dirk, and I don’t know what you’re talking about.

This really reminds me of Equius and Nepeta, and that is sortof cute. I almost can’t stand it. Honestly, this relationship is actually quite similar, except Alt!Calliope is much more dominant in the relationship than Nepeta was. Also Dirk probably has more potential to damage things than Equius did (other than way out of the temporal frame of that moirallegiance, as part of Lord English--- and even then, Nepeta ironically acted as a counter to his muscle-bound rage, albeit way after much of the damage had already been done [thanks, Davesprite {albeit, unrelated to the matter at hand, this relationship was probably why Davepettasprite^2 was destined in such a way to handle Lord English, in addition to the prophesies surrounding Dave dealing with him, Davesprite being the first one to get Caledfwlch, and the flying off into the sun prophesy (which was aided greatly by Seppucrow, the true hero of the story)}]). I guess that makes this relationship relatively more important, maybe.

So fricking wonderful and adorable. I do wonder why there are not that many consorts, though. Maybe they are just too distracted and hyperactive to have much in the way of drive to participate in politics. The humans I sortof vaguely understand, albeit I’d have thought that more might show up specifically for Jake’s speech, assuming that it was announced beforehand.

Dirk feels predictably antagonized, and is lashing out. I have a feeling that he’d intended to do something major before all this control was taken from him, but this will probably make it worse. Hmm.

Heh. I don’t think that he means to “pump her full of daylight,” at the moment, so this is still funny instead of terrifying.

Huh. Dave already knew about Calliope’s gender and is chill with it. Neat.

Oh. Umm... while I’m sure that he does not need that in order to target Jade’s body if he intends to do so, that is quite foreboding. He is indeed quite capable of tricking people into doing things, at times, isn’t he?

HAH! That is horrible, you self-obsessed weirdo! XD

More serious than being mind controlled by a space witch with bad intentions who has mind powers stolen from all the major players of her species, huh? (I seriously still wonder how the fight against her went so relatively-seemingly easily, and what happened with her curse. Maybe it only transfers in LE’s proximity, or something. ) ... Also, it wasn’t entirely just a joke, Roxy, geeze.

Thaaat’s what happens when your world is under a corrupting influence that is twisting the fabric of reality to their whim. (The question is: Is this Dirk or Calliope? Does she really have the right to judge him for his actions, if he really is expressing free will in doing so? Yes, yes she does, because he is strongly subverting the will of others, and justice in Paradox Space demands some sort of counterbalancing force. If his excess relevance as the Narrator is the only cost he faces, rather than dying a Just Death, he should feel lucky.)

***peals of cherubic laughter peal out in the background*** Random reminder: Angels (in Homestuck) are terrifying demons that should be taken as harbringers of the apocalypse. Alt!Calliope has already played this job once along with Lord English. Is her presence outside canon an ill omen by definition? (I am not sure Calliope the younger entirely counts, given her special circumstances, by the way. Hard to say.)

Beautiful. It’s almost like he’s an open PAGE of Hope, waiting to be written!

This is a somewhat wise impression. But it’s complicated, and great power means great responsibility. Especially when the nuclear genie has already been let out of the bottle on account of someone’s great ambition. (Note: I actually find Jane’s impulse to rule over her creation to be a reasonable one to have, all things considered. I am not judging her negatively for this. I am just not 100% certain that it is the right path to go on before they get a few dozen more years to wise them up, or maybe a few centuries. Wisdom is a very important thing for leadership, and it comes with age! Of course, experience also helps, but it might be useful to have some sort of smaller-scale experimentation with politic-- oh, wait, wasn’t she made a mayor at some point, according to the credits? That really hasn’t been emphasized in the epilogue at all, but probably should be more heavily considered. It’s still not enough experience for me to feel confident in her, but it’s something. Hmm.)

I mean... I can hear you. I thought your awareness was still there. I guess maybe having your position of control taken away from you might have sapped that as well, maybe. And yes, it is very interesting, indeed. Now, please put down the gun and try to negotiate more reasonably and in a more civilized fashion than the mistaken cowboy diplomacy idea you’re now engaging in. I will give Dirk some slack insofar as he is still getting used to her identifying as such, but he is sortof making a fool of himself by lashing out at Alt!Callie like that. It’s rather irrational, and doesn’t reflect very well on his character. It makes him out as being rather petulant and inflexible when it comes to identity matters.

Yeeeeep.

This is true (regarding the last part). It is also really sad to see them fighting like this. >:

Dave, you are being a dummy. You should really stop.

Aww. That is a very cute reaction. :3 Also, that is somewhat dishonest, Alt!Calliope. You should say “seemingly” nothing. ***harrumphs and wags my finger at them!***

It is somewhat rude of him to laugh, but I am almost tempted to laugh too, specifically at the fact that this is Alt!Calliope confirming emphatically the beauty of their other version in Roxy’s eyes. It has a sort of ironic tension and silliness to it. Possibly some pride. I therefore cannot entirely blame him for his laughter, for I do not know whether that is what he is laughing at, or if he’s laughing at the idea of finding an alien skull monster beautiful (which she really is).

It is sortof nice to see this encouragement from Dirk, albeit it is probably laced with irony and sarcasm. Knowing one’s self and admitting/accepting the things one feels is incredibly important to a person’s health! It feels brotherly of him.

I wonder if Roxy actually feels that way (that it is none of her business), or if it’s Alt!Calliope’s somewhat cold (and sarcastically-directed) interpretation of things. Hmm.

A very important question to ask for someone who is dealing with their own identity issues and/or worries about their friends judging them for them. This is really all there is to say on the matter.

That is a complicated question. The answer is this: Identity is only partially self-deterministic. You can certainly struggle and hope and wish for certain things, indulge in certain behaviors, and see what rubs off on you, or what you feel right about, but in all honesty, you are who you are. This CAN change over time, and that is something that most people don’t think about. To say you “change your mind” about “the person you wanna be” is not an accurate statement: you don’t necessarily choose anything at all, other than whether you want to actually embrace who you are and/or are becoming, and if you will actually tell anyone about it. In that sense: whether it is too late to change your mind about who you say and outwardly project you are?--- no, it is not too late. However, it can potentially be pretty fricking confusing to people, and some friends may not be able to handle it, especially if they have pretty deeply imbedded themselves in your own journey/identity, and/or anchored themselves in it as part of their own. This can cause them to be pretty put off, and potentially to have difficulty maintaining their relationship with you. As such, in summary: one should be careful and always very much self-reflective about identity issues. The choice to come out with any sort of change or difference is not an easy one, and someone should not be blamed for either side they fall upon--- whether they want to keep who they are a secret and/or for how long, or if they want to project it to the world (unless they are really violent about it and/or attempt to shame someone/force themselves upon another person as a “necessary” thing to do for their own growth/impulses or whathaveyou: that is just abusive and wrong).

No. While there is some degree of social capital involved and thus you should attempt to time things properly and take the needs of others into account (which means you have no right to get upset at them if they don’t react a certain way and/or are too involved with whatever is going on in their life right then to grapple with your assuredly stunning revelation), one does not owe their friends any sort of bombshell moment, and any sort of desire for one and/or push on someone else’s part for identity-related drama and/or revelation is actually what is greedy.

***shrug*** I guess it’s funny insofar as it has psychological humor wrapped into it and it makes the phraseology more cutesy (thus more approachable, I guess), but it’s not mind-blowing or anything.

And that’s okay. Someone can be casual about these things and not make it a federal fricking issue if they don’t want to. It’s also okay to have repeated revelations and/or constantly wrestle with who you actually are. It’s not something to be embarrassed about or paranoid with in a social respect, especially in a world with numerous different species of alien humanoids that have different and somewhat conflicting types of identities and drives. Almost indisputably, that should make identity issues less of a socially big deal.

Yes. Just like you helped him before. Oh wait, what was that? You had years to figure it out, but did nothing? Ah, well. Couldn’t be helped, I guess. Brothers do have their own separate matters to consider, after all.

***snickers*** Honestly, he’s probably right, but for different reasons than he’s expressing.

***cough time travel, cough*** Note: I actually don’t want to read that. It would feel like a really awkward sort of waste of narrative time. I’m just annoyed at the very ironic lack of time manipulation he’s been doing. Though in this case it sortof does suit him, insofar as he is using time concerns that he obviously could get around as if they were a suit of armor and/or armaments for him to verbally exploit. Very knight-y. Aaand this feels like about the right time to end this post.

#Homestuck Analysis #Identity #Homestuck Spoilers #Homestuck Liveblog #Homestuck Epilogue

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webscene-remade · 5 years

Text

gigantic homestuck liveblog post

hello. I hope to god that tumblr’s readmore function works across platforms because otherwise this may just be the worst thing I ever inflicted on anyone’s dashboard in the history of this hellsite

warnings for my pure, unadulterated opinions (including relentless character-hate for characters that I personally do not like), spoilers for literally everything, reading the epilogues in the most asinine order possible, and the same content warnings that were given at the beginning of the epilogues themselves

general thoughts: i liked some of it, didnt like some of it. the parts that i didn't like would have been more bearable if they literally weren’t painful to read. i’m of the opinion that, while things dont have to be daisies and roses all the time, i don’t want to have a completely horrible reading experience when things aren’t daises and roses.

other complaints: part of homestuck’s appeal is its amazing cast of girls, and they were severely under-utilized. also, i had to see gamzee again.

but, like i said. i liked some of it. a lot of it, in fact. i did think it kept with the spirit of homestuck in that it made me feel every single human emotion possible.

I had a lot of Feelings while reading, and if I went into all of them here, I might as well write out some meta to flesh out the 2.5 concrete thoughts I had while reading, but I’m not going to do that. instead, i’m going to dump my several-thousand-words of live reactions here so that no one has the patience to parse out what the hell i’m talking about. because I just spent a total of 21 hours reading this and I am so incredibly braindead.

MEAT 1

Okay I’m clicking on ‘meat’ first. I’m so scared LMAO I’m not ready for this.

Gross. This is already very upsetting.

MEAT 2

Lmao WHAT

FUCK. Dave this is NOT ALLOWED.

Homestuck is very very good actually

Alright I’m going to have to stop screenshotting every single thing I find funny or else I am never going to get through this

I Love You Dave Strider

This is so fucking weird to say and I have no idea what the psychology is behind it but reading homestuck always makes me weirdly ambitious…like reading about dave doing shit like making comics and motivating karkat to run for president makes ME want to do shit.

also the biggest mystery in homestuck is that people like jake English

MEAT 3

The fridge pops open and out roll Aranea and Gamzee. Gamzee honks and his codpiece jiggles ominously. Aranea staggers to her feet, looking rather pleased with herself.

Fucking gross.

JOHN PUNCHED ARANEA

Waaaaay back in the day “aranea gets punched in the face” was on my homestuck bingo card, back when we all thought the comic was gonna end after the gigapause or whatever it was called

Also is this going to be in fic form the whole time because if so I’m going to have a hell of a time concentrating long enough to finish this in one go

You wisely decide that this clown will lend nothing valuable to the narrative whatsoever if he is allowed to remain outside of your childhood refrigerator. You put both hands on his chest and shove him into the fridge where he belongs. He goes easily, issuing only a pair of weak honks in protest. You slam the fridge shut and resolve to never think about Gamzee Makara again.

Bye bitch

I know you’re going to be back soon but still

(also I skimmed the first few pages of the candy epilogue and it looks like gamzee might have some relevance in that one too. Homophobic if true.)

MEAT 4

Oh jesus fuck I just remembered caliborn’s stop-motion Claymation thing where all the kids die. And now john’s gathering them all up. This is going to fucking SUCK isn’t it

MEAT 5

Lmao

Jake can’t help but watch the motion, raking his eyes over the muscles shifting beneath the skin of Dirk’s neck and arms.

Calm your fucking boner dude

Also dirk is ripped apparently

With a casual flick of his wrist, Dirk snaps out a bright red tranquilizer handgun and shoots Jake in the neck. Jake’s glasses crack when he hits the mat.

What the fuck

MEAT 6

You wonder. Do you see these teen versions of your friends as “real”? Are you treating them, at Rose’s behest, as simple puppets? Doing your part to insist they fill friend-shaped recesses in an essential plan to stabilize all else that can be considered important, a distinction no longer applying to them? Do you care at all about whatever fate it may be that you are sentencing these children to? Are you becoming as complicit in the fatalistic evils of Paradox Space as Lord English himself? Are you becoming a monster, John Egbert?

MEAT 7

I Love You Rose Lalonde

Also, same old Dirk, huh?

Dirk & rose conversations are some of the best but. Dirk. Dirk. He reminds me so much of myself and I constantly want to shove him into a locker.

MEAT 8

I hate how much I love caliborn. Also I am Very Afraid.

MEAT 9

The blurry, distorted face of your laughing nemesis was the last thing you saw before the chest door slammed shut and plunged you into textual obsolescence.

And here, you are now stuck. You will not emerge from this holding cell, from an outside perspective, for quadrillions of years. It is not long at all until you begin to wish you had brought something to read.

Jesus Christ

Well. At least it’s quadrillions of years “from an outside perspective.” Hopefully it won’t be THAT long for them. Maybe like, an hour?

Also john you broke your glasses. How are you supposed to read.

MEAT 10

No, surely this must have been Dave’s idea. The kind of plot hatched from their little nest of mutually supportive, codependent, interspecies... whatever it was they had going on over there.

Jane is straight-up EVIL, I guess

This what capitalism does to you, folks

Also, karkat (true leftism)

MEAT 11

This is exactly what I expected when I realized john would be overseeing a group of teens

Would you tell them about Terezi...

For some reason her name feels like nails in your heart. Makes sense, you guess, cause there’s a lot of sharp letters in it. She had sharp teeth too, and sharp elbows. Sharp words. Terezi Pyrope was a sharp girl, and maybe what these sharp feelings are trying to tell you is you miss her more than you realized.

Do NOT talk about terezi in the past tense you fucking GOON

Also if I don’t see terezi again I will fucking riot

Me like 2 years ago

MEAT 12

Asfdhkajlfh

Jade you are NOT subtle

This is oppression

Dave and karkat HAVE KISSED MULTIPLE TIMES. I will not be convinced otherwise

Jade “didn’t think Obama was a real person” Harley

Also Dave “doesn’t think Jesus was a real person” Strider

Speaking of. Where is homestuck-is-a-sin nowadays

Jade will you please chill

but also. Marry me. dave and karkat are clearly not comfy with this, but I would be very comfy with it.

MEAT 13

> Be Vriska.

Oh fuck yes

Well, that didn’t last long. Bye, vriska!

Oh fuck

God this is all so intense. I feel like I should’ve read candy first

MEAT 14

Really, the only surprise is how long it took to happen. Jane is a beautiful lady, that’s for sure. She always has been, but she’s only grown more ravishing as she’s come into the full blossom of her womanhood. Smooth, silky skin... thick, dark lashes... full, feminine lips... not to mention curves like the dickens.

This is so hard to read lmao

Jake can’t stop thinking about dirk….ouch

MEAT 15

Roooooooooose

ROSE ):

Fuck jade too

This is going pretty much as well as could be expected

Just two bros…fighting lord English…everyone dying around them…

DAVEPETA

…v…vore

Great minds

Dave ): ): ):

There was no way that wasn’t going to happen but I am. Extremely upset.

The black hole—the gaping, implacable, cosmic embodiment of the dead cherub, his long-departed sister—finally welcomes Lord English home.

Yo I’m

It’s bananas that this webcomic still manages to have a monopoly over my emotions after all these years

MEAT 16

Oh fuck

Loving the aspect talk though

Rose’s eyes have grown distant, almost mirrorlike. Dirk can see himself reflected in her vacant stare.

Oh jesus oh Christ

Oh no

FUCK OFFFF

MEAT 17

All I’m thinking about is the narration about jake watching dirk’s rippling muscles

Dirk: I heard that Dirk has an 8-pack

MEAT 18

It’s been 3 hours and I’m only on meat 18

I need a fucking drink

MEAT 19

Jade’s got this disarming combo of head-in-the-clouds flightiness and the kind of legit, down-to-earth cred that can only be earned by having done something like cutting open your own grandfather and stuffing him full of polyurethane foam.

Why is homestuck so funny

I LOVE YOU ROXY LALONDE

Fucking same

MEAT 20

What is Happening

Will these motherfuckers Please Stop trying to remove the objects that are impaled in their chest

CALLIOPE????

I am actually astounded by the amount of things I retained from homestuck even though I haven’t quite understood what’s going on for like 6 years

MEAT 21

I missed her so much

I hate this stupid fucking webcomic

Please god kick his ass kanaya

MEAT 22

Fucking owned

MEAT 23

Kanaya PLEASE kick this fools ass

MEAT 24

TEREZI

I’M GOING TO GO APE SHIT

SHE LITERALLY HASN’T SAID ANYTHING YET AND I’M LOSING MY GODDAMN MIND

I’M GOING TO VOMIT

MEAT 25

…hmmmm

I’m actually almost tempted to do this?

Like I know it would make way more sense to finish reading meat first…BUT…

I’m gonna do it lmao

CANDY 1

At each fork in the veins, he supposes the leaf as a whole is making a certain kind of “decision,” to go this way or that. It certainly seems like one way of looking at a leaf, now that he bothers to really scrutinize one. It also seems to him, with just as great a sense of clarity, that not one of this leaf’s decisions ever mattered even the tiniest fucking bit to anybody.

Alright! Great start!

Hm! I don’t like this at all!!!!

Fuck gamzee lives

CANDY 2

Sensing that this is probably something he shouldn’t be seeing, he tiptoes towards Gamzee’s would-be sarcophagus as carefully and quietly as he can, and places his hands just above the thick aluminum hull. The moment John’s palms hit the fridge, Dirk turns to look at him. His head only moves an inch.

………what the fuck

OKAY SO…JOHN’S JUST GONNA…DROP GAMZEE ON EARTH C…THIS IS FINE

Oh what the FUCK is going on

I forgot how fucking headache-inducing gamzee’s quirk is

Literally this is almost impossible for me to read for some reason

She pats him on the back, nods very slowly, issues an “mm-hm” now and then. Only while he is distracted by his own sobs does she steal a glance at her phone, tipping the fact that she too wouldn’t mind if this redemptive soliloquy could hurry itself along.

I pretty much sound like a broken record at this point but. What the actual fuck.

Gamzee stans be like

John: *sends a picture of gamzee to terezi*

Me: Gamzee Is Not Allowed to Exist In The Same Narrative Space As Terezi

“HE”….

I just realized that the narrative isn’t in second person any more

I mean…I’m assuming we’re outside of ‘canon’. Like this isn’t the ‘essential’ timeline anymore, so things are…fucking wacky, to say the least

But even in the other timelines, shit isn’t this wack

And john seems to be aware of what’s going on

So like. What’s happening.

CANDY 3

At least dirk’s bitch ass is also sweating over all this

CANDY 4

Rose opens her eyes. She stares at the knob of her wrist and frowns. She’s not sure why this sensation should be concerning. It’s not like her memory is slipping away. She remembers the conversation she had with John this morning quite clearly. As she does the previous years of declining health, and troubled, obsessive thoughts about canon, dissipation, and other such abstractions. What’s slipping away instead is the feeling that any of it mattered at all.

I have. Very mixed feelings.

Like OBVIOUSLY I don’t want rose to continue to suffer existential dread but this feels like post-retcon all over again. Which is to say, everything feels off.

But. Post-retcon was, like, canon. And post-retcon (post-game over, really) is where I kinda stopped caring about homestuck as much as I had before

And perhaps that’s just me not “getting it” but. Oh well.

Fucking OUCH dawg

Rose and kanaya…damn son…….

They were my first f/f ship ever. Can you believe that? Can you believe homestuck?

CANDY 5

She retrieves one of her bras from where it’s hanging over the back of the couch. She starts changing it right there, doing that mystical sleight of hand girls seem to be born with the knowledge of, where the bra goes off and then on again without the shirt being removed.

Very unrelatable

Now THIS is relatable

Jade CHILL

I’ve always liked the idea of jadedavekat but this shit is not fun

Karkat fucking bit her afdhlfasdkfh what the fuck

Picsthatmakeyougohmm

CANDY 6

Yall are gonna think I’m evil for saying this but how on earth are there people out there who like Jake English

Okay I took a break to eat something after 5 straight hours of reading

I bet there’s people out there who have read this shit 3 times over but I take so GODDAMN LONG to read anything

And to think. I’m an English major.

Anyway back to it I fucking guess

That’s depression, babe!

I’m heterophobic now

Do I REALLY have to read another Jake-Jane makeout sesh. Do I really.

It turns out that I don’t. thank god.

But that was all still incredibly uncomfortable

CANDY 7

In the time that I was eating I managed to forget that gamzee existed. And now I am reminded. How unfortunate.

I do not often find myself agreeing with John and only John but. Here we are.

Also I am Not Down For johnroxy. Especially with how wack everything is.

Roxy DO NOT leave john alone with this literal clown

Oh fucking Christ

HELLO?? IS THIS ALLOWED???

CANDY 8

The,, hornographer,,,

There’s a third member of their social group who definitely hasn’t arrived at the conclusion that his power and influence should be meted out responsibly either. Neither of them speak his name, however. For some reason, it feels like a shadow passing over the sun. A brief spike of pain flickers through Rose’s head, a bolt that strikes between her eyes and splinters out. There is color and light behind it. A vision that tears through the material reality in front of her and gives her a brief glimpse into a parallel reality where things are very different.

Hm! Not great!

Yes, it would be very awkward

Also, don’t even fuckin g MENTION vriska unless I get to see her

Don’t think I haven’t noticed that this epilogue has been hellishly vriskaless

Like youre gonna make me see GAMZEE MAKARA?? GAMZEE??? WHERE’S VRISKA??

CANDY 9

Jade. Jade. Jade. Fucking CHILL, jade.

CANDY 10

Get you a girl who lesbian marries one of the two remaining eligible human females

Eyes emoji

He whips his head around to see... Dave? He’s running down the street, looking back and forth like a hunted man.

Dave: *is flirted with*

Dave: *books it to an entirely different time zone*

I Love You Dave Strider

Why on EARTH are you going to john Egbert for relationship advice, though

CANDY 11

Daaaaaaave ):

CANDY 12

This is the fucking worst

I hate this so much

CANDY 13

It’s obviously a robot, but it’s a complete mess. The form is feminine, but the head is still bald, and the face has no cover, revealing its skull-like interior. The body doesn’t have any proper protective plating yet, so it’s all a mess of wires and loose mechanical bits. Clearly a work in progress. But Dave can’t help but wonder what exactly it is that Dirk’s been working on here?

Then Dave notices the note. It’s carefully folded in the limp palm of the robot’s hand. His heart jumps into his throat, and something in his stomach drops.

Oh, no.

what the fuck is this fucking robot

Also did dirk fucking kill himself

CANDY 14

We’re back in the 2nd person now for dirk’s shit

What could you accomplish in a dead-end existence like this? There are no stakes. No meaningful challenges. No structures or themes—only residual chemical reactions in a dying brain, a physical system’s obligate compulsion to exhaust its own lingering momentum.

Literally me every time I realize that life isn’t a story and I’m not a character with a heroic arc

And like I get that homestuck has been thematically interested in...well…life not being a story. And I have a feeling that these epilogues are going to cement that, with all the talk of meta/canon. And I can already tell that I’m going to be disappointed with the lack of narrative resolution

Because like…life’s not a story, okay……………but homestuck is

Anyway this fucker is really about to kill himself isn’t he

Yep…jesus.

CANDY 15

Wow this feels INCREDIBLY shitty considering. That’s exactly what happened.

I am not Feeling Great my dudes

Dave’s got his suit jacket unbuttoned and pulled over Karkat’s head to shield him from the rain. Karkat’s the one talking—his caterpillar eyebrows furrowed, but his gaze soft. Whatever he’s saying makes Dave turn his face away, but Karkat winds a hand in his shirt and tugs him in, forces him to make eye contact. They both go still, seeming to finally realize how close their faces have gotten, how Karkat’s fingers are brushing down the length of Dave’s torso. Dave dips down so that their noses are bumping.

I will NOT be distracted by this cute shit

(I am distracted by this cute shit)

Thinking about how roxy said they don’t want to have kids in meat and I’m! Not feeling great about this!

Also I hate that I have to call it ‘meat’

(also the narrator refers to roxy as ‘she’ in candy and so like. Idk which one I’m supposed to use)

CANDY 16

6 month time jump. Very relieved that I don’t have to see the johnroxy wedding

Fucking. Skullface emoji.

Asdasfasljk John don’t dump on your sister like that

Straight fucking savage though I’ll give you that

John and terezi are talking about vriska I’m going to fucking vomit

This is all I’m going to get, huh? Huh????

I’m so starved

Vrisrezi is literally the most compelling part of homestuck and it’s like. So not going to be relevant at all in the epilogue, is it

CANDY 17

Did rose and kanaya literally name their kid ‘vriska’

Like they did not have to do that

John is the only one who hasn’t lost his goddamn mind

Also the idea of someone just changing their kids name a year after they were born is. Hilarious. It’s extra hilarious when you remember that the kids didn’t get a name until they were 13.

John SNAPPED

“please come make sense at me”...This is……..A Lot

CANDY 18

Jane is still dedicated to eugenics which is like. Pretty fucking awful.

You know it’s bad when GAMZEE MAKARA argues with you about morality

Fucking GROSS

Also jake is sitting right next to them akbfdabkjknsfn

Welp! Homestuck’s over, everyone!!!! The furries won!

CANDY 19

I have been reading this goddamn webcomic for 8 goddamn hours

I’m pretty sure that I’m not even halfway through

HIS RELATIONSHIP IS A FLAMING WRECK OF AN INTERSTELLAR WARSHIP HURTLING TOWARDS THE PLANET AT TERMINAL VELOCITY WITH THE ENTIRE CREW BRUTALLY SLAUGHTERED UPON REENTRY, SHOVED STRAIGHT DOWN THE CHAGRIN TUNNEL AND THEN IMMEDIATELY SHAT OUT THE OTHER SIDE, THUS FLOODING THE ENTIRE FUCKING NEIGHBORHOOD WHEN IT CLOGS UP THE LOAD GAPER.

This is what this epilogue has been missing…karkat-isms

Yo WHAT

I probably definitely should’ve read meat all the way through but. Oh well!

I never thought that I would be glad to see a dead teenage jade fall out of the fucking sky but at least its providing a brief reprieve to feeling of absolute dread I’ve had while reading the entire candy section

Also strange that dead teenage space jade is the one thing that DOESN’T fill me with absolute dread

CANDY 20

Karkat SNAPPED

CANDY 21

I somehow managed to forget that calliope exists

Funeral TWO

As fucking rough as dirk’s suicide was, I absolutely cannot imagine him in any of these situations

Like the only narrative choices were to kill him or to lock him away in his lab w/o a single mention of him and I gotta say the former makes more sense given his characterization

I am. Upset.

ARADIA

Aradia please save me from this nightmare

Asdfghjlkjhgf

I changed my mind I love candy

Never mind jane’s talking about eugenics again

I’m laughing???? What the fuck is happening?????

Okay alt calliope is using dead teen space jade’s body as a vessel

Should’ve put two and two together since I got close to that part in meat but I have been reading for like 9 hours and things are starting to blur together

*heavy metal music plays*

CANDY 22

3 year time jump! Alright!

Fucking same, john

Okay so the dead trolls that got consumed by the black hole are showing up on earth c, or something?

WAIT DOES THAT MEAN LORD ENGLISH IS GONNA GET PLOPPED INTO THIS TIMELINE

idk if I’m misunderstanding but……..i am……nervous

Those are my 20-something-year-old children

Cant believe karkat rose and kanaya are in antifa :’)

Actually I can absolutely believe that

I hate this

I was 100% unprepared to see Eridan fucking Ampora in the year of our lord 2019. I’m calling the fucking police

This is the worst

Oh I Do Not Like This

CANDY 23

John was serious about the whole kidnapping thing huh

Christ almighty

SILENCE, CLOWN.

Jokes aside the child abuse is like. Very vey upsetting.

But why has this human child adopted the ‘uh,,’s of Tavros’ quirk

I think I’ve said this before but homestuck is very good, actually

Hm this shit with kid tavros is making me sick to my stomach

Also I’m approaching hour 10 and I may have to take a break for sleep soon.

But. I defo have shit to do this weekend that doesn’t involve reading homestuck

We’ll see how much longer I can stay awake, I guess

Dave said this about dirk (jake also said this about dirk, in meat) and I’m. not psyched about it.

I suppose it’s possible that gamzee retained it from dirks funeral, but still

John has his breath powers back?? Passively, at least?

And where the fuck did alt calliope go

And aradia and sollux

Unfortunately I still think it is kidnapping

Especially because you’re like, 5

It’s probably, like, a bad thing that I was rooting for john’s kidnapping plan to work. But.

CANDY 24

Okay theres alt calliope aradia and sollux

I am. Compromised.

Oh fuck

It’s actually kind of insane that dirk and jane are like. Straight villains. I kinda would’ve guessed w/ jane (relation to the condesce and all that) but dirk being a villain shocked the fuck out of me. it really shouldn’t have, though, considering that dirk was capable of becoming bro.

): ): ): ):

I’m actually tearing up LMAO

I can’t tell if it’s because of how much I love terezi or if it’s because I’ve been reading this for 10 hours straight

Probably both

CANDY 25

Karkat I love you

Also this is buried deep enough in this post so I think it’s safe to say w/o anyone actually reading it: when I was 14 and reading homestuck for the first time I had a crush on karkat and used to daydream about us going on a date at the county fair

I’m sorry to anyone that had to read that with their own eyeballs

Hard labor in the cake mills

Bucket jokes are dead, folks. You heard it here first.

Oh Christ I just remembered that group of cosplayers who took a bucket into a restaurant and passed it around and spit in it. Scandal of the fucking decade.

Asdfghjk KANAYA

This is only going to make things more complicated, I imagine

KARKAT: I’M ALSO FUCKING ORDERING YOU TO STOP MAKING GARBAGE FISH PUNS FOREVER.

LMAO

Okay…on that slightly…lighter note, I think it’s time to turn in for the night. I’m at the 11th hour (literally) and I’m losing my ability to pay attention to what the fuck is going on

Plus my head hurts like a motherfucker

If I remember correctly, each epilogue has 45 parts, so I’m a bit more than halfway done

I’m setting an alarm because I’m dedicated to finishing this tomorrow

CANDY 26

Okay I got my hat on backwards and I’m ready to fucking party

Even Alternia had beauty in it. But John is sure that Earth C probably replicates it the same way it replicates everything else: thin and garish and fake, fake, fakity FAKE. A bad photocopy with the ink settings turned to high contrast. A sunrise that casts no shadows.

This is not a party

Also I’m getting flashbacks to my thesis that I wrote on the left hand of darkness which never shut the fuck up about shadows and the lack thereof

A streak of teal, smudged along the top ridge of the seat cushion, at the center of a red, bloody handprint. With wide eyes, John reaches out and runs his thumb over it. It chips under his nail, the same consistency as human blood. The same color as Terezi’s text.

He rubs the flaky crust between his fingers. He only stopped talking to her a few hours ago. Time passes differently out there, as he’s often reminded. She was so sure she was dying. Was this it? Was this how she —

John reels back, nausea striking him in the pit of his stomach. What kind of twisted coincidence is this? Why is he finding this now? If Terezi was here, why? Who was she bleeding with in the back of his father’s car?

I’m guessing john was bleeding with terezi in the back of his father’s car?

I mean when I left off with meat terezi had just shown up to find john impaled in the chest with one of LE’s teeth

But I’m like. SUPER not psyched to learn what happened to terezi

A choked sob forces its way out of his chest. His fingers flex into claws, gathering up dirt into his shaking fists. He bears down until his knuckles turn white and his fingernails press sharply into the flesh of his palms. The pain makes him feel real.

All he’s ever wanted is to be fucking real.

Maybe it’s because this is the first thing I’m reading this morning but I absolutely cannot take this seriously

CANDY 27

Ten year time skip. Jesus.

So everyones in their late 30s, now

I’m love them?

Also things are super not great on earth c, huh

Like imagine being jane crocker & playing a game where all your friends die a bunch & then showing up to an idyllic planet and being like ‘you know what this world needs more of? Fascism and eugenics.’

Also didn’t jane’s dad make it onto earth c??? where is THAT motherfucker??

I’m glad that sollux and aradia are still like. Chillin.

Karkat sure does know how to sweet-talk people

Also karkat still misses dave ):

And dave still misses karkat ):

This is so fucking rough

CANDY 28

VRISKA???

Yeah this is the vriska that got punted by LE after releasing the juju

She is taking things as well as I would imagine vriska to take things

CANDY 29

These chapters are getting shorter. Maybe I’ll actually finish this today

…lord English?

CANDY 30

Okay, so jane’s dad was on earth c, and now he’s dead

Jesus Christ

I shouldn’t be laughing but adjsgklfgfs

Leave it to karkat to try to assassinate someone with a fucking rocket launcher

Also leave it to dad to jump in front of a FUCKING ROCKET LAUNCHER

I cant believe gamzee fucking Makara is still here. I was hoping that had all been a nightmare

Yikes! Yikes! Yikes! Yikes!

Asdfghjkjhgfdsdfghjkjhgfdsdfghjkljhgfrvghkhgf

I-

I don’t know how I didn’t see this coming

BEGONE, CLOWN

CANDY 31

I missed their interactions

John is so fucking funny sometimes

I’m laughimg so fucking hard

Also I’m going to keep calling her vriska and calling rose and kanaya’s child ‘kid vriska.’ Otherwise I will get incredibly confused between this vriska and actual (vriska)

Vriska I love you

Also I like how john straight up hates kid vriska

God she’s so intolerable. I love her.

Also vriska and dirk are so similar but I love vriska and can’t stand dirk

am I a misandrist

(I know it’s probably their differences; vriska is dedicated to being a hero and not a author/villain(?) and still, like, values people, even if it is in her own fucked up way. Also she’s like a billion times more critical of herself than dirk is)

oh god theyre talking about terezi

yeah that didn’t go anywhere I wanted it to

CANDY 32

fukcing. Gamzee.

Please god vriska beat this clowns ass

“brutal Double Axe Handle” “European-style Uppercut” “knife chop” “Discus Back Elbow”

Am I supposed to know what any of this means

I like how john is just watching this happen

Gamzee grabs (Vriska)’s foot by the bridge. Instead of yanking her off-balance, he opens his huge, bloody maw of a mouth and... runs his tongue along the rubber bottom of her shoe? (Vriska) freezes. She watches him lap the mud—and his own blood—out from between the grooves of the sole. His lips drag lewdly over the ridge of her footwear and begin sucking at where her big toe would be, if it were not safely ensconced in several layers of rubber and canvas.

Fucking GROSS

I hate this clown so goddamn much

This is the absolute Worst Outcome

Like I cannot imagine a more upsetting scenario than gamzee and vriska making out in canon

Dirk’s suicide would be a fucking palate cleanser at this point

That was a bad joke to make but that’s what homestuck does to you I fucking guess

CANDY 33

*I* don’t even remember the three pillars of canon

And I read that shit literally yesterday

I, unfortunately, have no idea what this means

Well. At least rose is happy. For the first time in the entirety of homestuck.

CANDY 34

“immoderately lit”

I’m going to say that all the time now. Thanks.

Vriska’s huge, mischievous smile freezes on her face. When her eyes pass the image to her brain, and it finally makes sense of this incomprehensible jumble of gray limbs, blue and purple slop, tangled black hair, and stunned faces, her expression begins to slowly melt. It then drifts quickly, from phase to phase, to one of wonder, then anguish, and finally, abject horror.

This is so fucking unfortunate

CANDY 35

At least all the vriskas are on the same page about this being the nightmare scenario. At least theres that.

Gamzee calling vriska “problematic.” I’m laughing really hard but I’m also like. Enraged.

And then, she lets go. His face is frozen in a repellent mask exhibiting the perfectly undetectable difference between terror and ecstasy. He’s dead.

I hope to GOD this is true but I’ve been tricked before

I don’t know if I will ever be truly free of gamzee fucking Makara

CANDY 36

Jake and his kid showed up to johns house and jake is wearing nothing but underwear

At this point this is one of the least strange things to happen

All the same, John finds it hard to feel much sympathy. Who is Jake? The one standing in front of him now, anyway. Has he always been this contemptibly pathetic, or is this too a function of the absurdity of this contorted reality? It’s hard to be sure. Are Jake’s “struggles” worth any more of John’s guilt and emotional energy than a Sim stuck in a pool without a ladder?

Jesus Christ. John did not come to play today. Fuck.

Also I feel incredibly bad for jake. I’ve never liked him but I’m not, like, a monster.

Or maybe he is doing exactly what Jake has always done. In a certain light, isn’t ascribing all this mess to some unconscious influence he might have had over the metaphysical shape of reality just a way to brush off his simpler failures as a man and a father?

God why is homestuck kicking my ass so bad

John constantly misses his dad and all I can think about is how often his dad told him that he was proud of him. And now john thinks he’s failed as a father.

John and jake are. Dancing.

I absolutely have not forgotten that jake is still in his underwear

CANDY 37

I’m living for this conversation between vriska and kid-vriska

Man I bet dirk hates john’s guts LOL

Like I imagine john’s retcon powers infuriate him

Though I bet dirk wouldn’t want the retcon powers for himself. It might take away the “challenge” of it. Idk.

Jesus Christ

How the turntables….

I Am Going To Vomit

Vrisrezi is so fucking legendary. No one can ever change my mind.

I also I just ate a ham and cheese sandwich and it was really fucking gross. Legit cant tell if I’m nauseous about that or vrisrezi

[CHANTING] VRISKA AND TEREZI ARE IN LOVE! VRISKA AND TEREZI ARE IN LOVE! VRISKA AND TEREZI ARE IN LOVE!

I’M SHAKING I FEEL SO VINDICATED RN

I forgive all the other dumb shit in this epilogue

Seriously. Transcends quadrants. I have been saying this for half a fucking decade. Vriska and terezi are in gay love. Eat shit, haters.

Asdfghjkl

I hate this stupid webcomic

I have nothing intelligent left to say anymore (as if I ever had anything intelligent to say) but. Homestuck good.

I am going to Lose My Shit

CANDY 38

Thank Fucking God

Also ever since dead teen space jade fell out of the sky, all of the characters have felt a lot more real

I’m not sure if that’s in the narrative or that’s just me getting over my disgruntlement at the incredibly batshit things happening in candy

Hatchi fucking matchi

Also getting some real dirk-fading-into-the-ether vibes from john here

Roxy is fucking laying into john damn

But it’s not like they arent making completely valid points

………..hmm……..

God I’m so depressed

I’ve spent 80% of my life worried that I’m doing the Important and Right thing

And in the last 4-5 years I’ve been confronted with my cosmic insignificance and I have not been able to get over it

Like I get it’s kind of asshole-ish. Narcissistic. Selfish. To think of your life and the people in it as something….sidelined. and to be all mopey over that.

I WANT to be all “who cares” about it because thinking that your life has any Grand Significance In The Scope Of The Infinite Universe is 100% impractical and frankly batshit

This is all to say that I have problems and homestuck if calling me tf out

CANDY 39

dave is in the FUCKING WHITE HOUSE

I swear to god if Obama shows up I will shit my fucking pants

He steps closer to investigate, wiping away at the layers of moss and dirt to reveal a surface he most certainly does recognize. It’s a transportalizer.

I am shaking in anticipation

It’s a mounted god tier costume, about the size an adult male would wear. He recognizes the symbol. It’s the same one Jake used to wear when they were teens. It is the symbol for Hope.

Obama played fucking sburb didn’t he

Why is homestuck so fucking funny

OBAMA LMAOOOOOOOOO

This is the most homestuck thing to ever happen in homestuck

Hologram throwing all this inspiring bullshit at dave and dave just repeatedly asking how Obama died

He tells himself there’s nothing wrong with crying. Of course there isn’t. Just... not in front of Obama. He’s GOT to keep it together.

I’m just gonna. Put this here.

Obama ships davekat

Daaaaaave ): ): ):

Yes I’m 21 years old yes I’m tearing up at a conversation between a fictionalized barrack obama and a fictional man who wears sunglasses from a ben stiller movie all the time

Hate this fucking comic LOL

“wake up”. What. What is happening.

The sliding panel reveals a recess, and in the recess stands a robot. It’s a gleaming, polished silver replica of Dave, but without shades. It stands totally still, unpowered. Dave struggles to make sense of what he’s looking at.

Is THIS the robot that dirk was building??

Wait Obama said he built it

What the actual fuck

Fucking. WHAT. DAVBOT?

This is so fucking weird

CANDY 40

Asdfghjkl

I love you aradia

Wow that conversation was…………..something

So calliope is fighting dirk for control of the narrative?

and dirk is like, an irresponsible author

especially interesting convo in light of dirk’s status as andrew’s self-insert

also I knew LE was gonna show up

CANDY POSTSCRIPT

rose…..bot……………..

I’ve got a bad feeling about this scoob

Also not feeling great about fucking davebot

That’s it for candy……………………..

Hopefully meat is more conclusive that

I’ve been reading for 15 total hours now

Might as well keep going

MEAT 25

Didn’t think I’d actually do it, huh?? Snide bastard

Also rose is going to straight die real soon isn’t she

And then become rosebot

Oh fuck right off

MEAT 26

Get wrecked you punk-ass bitch

MEAT 27

Okay so alt calliope is taking over jades body in this reality. Cool cool.

Also. Interesting that calliope said the way events are telegraphed, not what events are telegraphed. Goes back to importance of the speaker convo from candy

Dirk’s text is getting smaller asfgshfjk

Also good to know that calliope is completely Freaked The Fuck Out in this reality too, re: alt calliope occupying jade’s body

……….man

Also I’ve said this before but. Dirk and vriska. Are so alike.

MEAT 28

Terezi dear god I fucking missed you

It probably hasn’t been that long but it feels like forever

Yeah I suppose terezi’s been talking w/ the john that’s aged into his 30s

Also I was thinking about this lastnight & I forgot that time works different here in ye olde paradox space and I was kinda super weirded out thinking about a 30 y/o john flirting with terezi. I actually had a nightmare about it lmao. But this morning I remembered that terezis probably been at this forever.

I think the fact that john is even worried about this at all means he’s in pretty good shape

John: *thinks a girl is cute*

John: oh shit am I being a creep

Okay, terezi says she feels like she’s been out there for a hundred sweeps. That defo makes me feel better about her and john flirting

Okay, so I was right. John was the one bleeding in the car

Terezi’s not bleeding though so I am. Nervous to find out how that happens.

OF COURSE terezi is still looking for vriska, you fucking goon. Theyre in love.

Though I gotta say I wasn’t that down with johnrezi before the epilogue but. I have to say. It’s actually very cute.

Terezi just. Ate shaving cream.

MEAT 29

Oh, hi, jane

I kinda forgot how far along she is in her development as a full-blown fascist in this timeline

Dirk: *speaks*

Me: bitch

Jesus Christ

Waiting for dirk to call jane problematic

Calliope SNAPPED

MEAT 30

Why is karkat hiking around in a fucking suit

I love karkat

I love dave

Dave starting to explain super pacs to jake

And using sbahj for campaign ads asgdhadkjl

Why is he like this (I say, fondly)

Dirk is really out here being Like That

I’m

I have no words

Also I promise that this is unrelated but jake has inexplicably grown on me a little (not a lot)

MEAT 31

Now terezi is eating tobacco

She’s disgusting. I love her.

Terezi ):

John: *talks about how great terezi is*

Me: *nods solemnly*

I Am In Pain

GOD I love Terezi

Terezi: hold on. Lemme just do an impromptu surgery real quick.

Terezi: *is, very unsurprisingly, turned on by doing an impromptu surgery*

Oh ok this is happening

Good thing I found the time to get down w/ johnrezi I fucking guess

Not completely sure how I feel about this

MEAT 32

Is dirk about to fucking assassinate jake

He wouldn’t do that right

Dirk said transphobe rights??

God I hate this motherfucker

Dave: come…’out.’ What is this you speak of.

Roxy, dave, and alt calliope: Let’s talk about gender

Okay, so. Assassinating jake is something that dirk WOULD do

Calliope struggling to keep dirk back w/ the power of their narration is very fun to read though

Dirk: *slices the bell in half*

Me: that would’ve…made good content for a flash

Not to sound ungrateful but not one panel? Not one flash animation? Instead I have to read all these WORDS?

Of course if this were in a flash animation I probably wouldn’t understand fuckall of what is going on

On the other hand, it wouldn’t be taking me a billion years to get through this

God can roxy please get a pair of sunglasses to match dave. Please.

Hour? 17.5? Maybe?

Anyway I am being forced to take a break so I can participate in easter festivities (by which I mean eating dinner with 2 whole people)

Okay I’m back

I defo should be able to finish this tonight

Okay I guess killing Jake is NOT something that Dirk would do

At least. Not right now. And probably not permanently

dude…

you got to FLIP it

TURN-WAYS

Time to be back on dirk’s bullshit I guess

Meat 33

In the two hours that I was gone I managed to forget that john and terezi boned

Dirk saying things like “incel” and “cuck” make me want to Kill

Meat 34

Wow it so incredibly awful to read Dirk’s narration

I hate this stupid motherfucker so fucking much

Meat 35

*sees more orange text* oh jesus Christ

God why is he being so fucking cruel

Also if john dies then like. WHAT is the point.

Aw man I’m fucking crying

Man what the fuck

This shit fucking sucks

I gotta take a break

Meat 36

Now that I’ve taken like a 5 minute break to stop fucking crying it’s time to get back on the pain train I guess

Since I actually let Tears Fall there’s an increased chance that I’ll cry again

So I cannot be held accountable if I do that

Why the fuck does this clown keep misgendering roxy

Terezi: *pulls johns corpse out of a wallet to smell it* nothing weird about this

Also how tf is terezi gonna show back up shortly after john goes missing and no ones gonna suspect anything

Is it vriska. It’s vriska isn’t it.

Why do I feel like I’m either never going to get to see this conversation or I AM going to get to see it and its going to cause me immense personal distress

TEREZI SAID TRANS RIGHTS

Also terezi can hear dirk???????????

And are roxy’s pronouns him or them

Like did terezi just assume based on roxy’s appearance or did she talk to kanaya about it

Also I hate dirk’s stupid fucking guts

It does NOT help that I didn’t like him before the epilogue

God he sucks shit

Say it with me, now: we love terezi pyrope

Terezi DO NOT trust this clown ass motherfucker

Meat 37

Dirk is actually the worst dad. Don’t sweat it, john.

ROSE: Are you sure Kanaya is going to be ok with this?

No, rose. She absolutely will not be ok with this. What the fuck.

This shit sucks so goddamn much

I am going to be so depressed after finishing this arent I

Goddammit I’m crying again. I fucking knew I would.

Meat 38

Unfortunately I agree with dirk

FUCK

Davekat is so GOOD what the hell

Also

Karkat ):

Dirk will you fucking fuck off

I’m seriously okay with dave and karkat hopelessly pining forever if it means dirk doesn’t literally FORCE them to kiss. Like, what the fuck.

I take a deep breath and get myself under control. My light psychological intrusions may have only made things worse. Invested as I am in the outcome of this encounter, I know forcing their hand would be a mistake.

That’s the smartest thing you ever said you stupid fuck

Thank Fucking God

Meat 39

I’m nearing the end of this whole things and dirk still has narrative control. Not psyched about that.

He’s gently stroking the side of my arm now, making no effort to disguise his interest in the contours of my muscles. I use that arm to put a hand on his shoulder in an affable way, so that he’s forced to stop.

Dirk: I heard that Dirk has an 8-pack

Wait I already think I made that joke

He takes in every drop of light reflecting from my beautiful face. The sculpted cheekbones, the warrior’s eyebrows, the deadly serious yet exquisitely kissable mouth. This is the face he lives for now. A visage that, in mere minutes, will vanish from his life forever. The tears drop. His voice cracks.

Fuck OFF dude. I hate you so goddamn much.

I miss gamzee. GAMZEE. Can you believe that shit?????????

Also it’s so incredibly shitty that jane won the election against karkat

like there’s no way there’s gonna be any kind of resistance now for like, plenty of reasons, one being that it wouldn’t even start in the first place. Now jane’s gonna slide to Literal Genocide but with no opposition this time

god this is wack

Meat 40

I am so tired of seeing this fools orange text

Please god

Also I hate that homestuck has me counting exclamation marks to make sure theres not a significant number of them (8. 8 is the significant number)

Thinking about dave’s speech at dirk’s funeral and Not Feeling Great

Does dirk actually think dave is going to be the one to kill him or is that just his weird decapitation fetish talking

Meat 41

Kanaya I love you and this is not your fault but jesus Christ

Kanaya: I Have Been Bamboozled

Oh shes fucking mad

KANAYA: ***I SWEAR THAT I SHALL MAKE HIM PAY DEARLY FOR STEALING MY BELOVED WIFE!***

I know that I’ll never see it happen but I hope kanaya beats dirks ass into the goddamn ground

Remember when chainsawed eridan in half and put on bloodied lipstick afterward? That’s the shit I’m talking about

Welp. Bye, jade.

Fucking. My sentiments exactly.

Alright alt calliope is using ‘he’ pronouns w/ Roxy so I’m assuming that’s right, considering alt calliope has access to Roxy’s thoughts and shit

fuck you you punk-ass bitch

Meat 43

I have never in my life been more relieved to see red text instead of orange

Things are still pretty fucking awful, though. I haven’t forgotten that.

sdfghjkl

see things are 100% Very Bad rn but this isn’t like completely impossible to read? Like I enjoyed parts of the epilogue, didn’t enjoy other parts. But the a lot of the parts I didn’t enjoy just were so painful to read. It was damn near impossible sometimes. And like, I get what you’re trying to do, but imo tough subjects don’t necessarily need to be written in a way that makes me so viscerally upset lol

anyway what I’m saying is that I’m not viscerally upset right now. Considering I’m nearing the end, this is a good thing.

karkat is talking about how dumb the concept of incest is and is being a jerk about how roxy’s dressed. I am upset again.

Thank god dave is here to save the fucking day

I just sneezed and heard crackling in my ears. I’ve been hearing shit like that for a solid two months now. Is there fluid in my ears? Do I have an ear infection? How long do ear infections last?

I’m love them

They still don’t know john is dead ): ): ):

Thank fucking god

At least there’s the possibility that they’ll see john again and that calliope is going to provide some fucking guidance

Also arent epilogues supposed to RESOLVE SHIT and not like. Leave me hanging like this. I can tell it’s to leave me hanging and listen. Listen. I just want to be free.

I’m going to be 40 goddamn years old and homestuck: the sequel is going to come out and the characters are going to be 42 and dealing with the exact issues that I’m dealing with as a 40 year old and it’ll launch me into an at-least-a-month-long spiral of fruitless self-reflection while I cry about it

Oh god fucking dammit

What was his sacrifice, even? Having sex with terezi?

Sorry. I’m just bitter.

In any case, in addition to like, weakening LE enough for alt calliope to presumably kill him, I do think it has something to do with terezi. I don’t think her role in things is quite over yet.

Meat Postscript

Okay so we’re back to candy?

Or, at least, where candy left off

Did. Alt calliope eat LE. Is that what happens when cherubs defeat one another. Did I manage to forget this cannibalistic detail.

Did dirk influence Obama to make davebot so davebot could join forces with alt-calliope to go against dirk, or was that Obama intentionally going up against dirk

Did I really type that sentence with my own fingers

Above this line resides all that matters. Below exists all else. Never again the twain shall meet.

These are a dope couple of paragraphs

Also I know that this probably goes against everything I just read but I hope this means I never have to read about an offshoot timeline again

Like I get that that was all Homestuck Brand Fuckery but I need like 300 months to recover

21 hours of reading later and I don’t really know what to

#derseday #homestuck #upd8 #also this looks fucking wack on mobile #so dont even look i guess

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blaperile · 4 years

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Homestuck Meat Epilogue - Reactions Page 40-43

Page 40:

Hopy shit!!!

THAT was not what I was expecting Jade to say!

I was getting so worried when Dirk was describing Jade's state, that she was going to overexert herself and that her body would immediately collapse or that she'd accidentally hurt someone.

It seems like the experience she had has triggered something within her. I wonder though, seeing as the description is deliberately vague... is it just the Game Over Jade whose memories she's accessed, or also her other selves? As in, has she begun tapping into her ultimate self, similarly to what Rose has been going through?

It was exactly for that latter reason that I feared her body was going to collapse and not be capable of handling it.

Oh man though, so she REALIZES what's going on with Dirk. That's spectacular!!! But how come she realizes it? Does she hear his narration now? Or is it because of being used as a vessel by Alternate Calliope that the latter passed on some information to her (or just the awareness)?

I definitely didn't expect this first move against Dirk to originate with her though, my shortlist was basically Dave, Roxy, Kanaya and Terezi. Because Roxy seems to tbe invulnerable to his messing, Dave realized SOMEONE was toying with him, Kanaya just lost Rose because of Dirk, and Terezi knows Dirk has the power of narration now.

So, it wasn't any of them, but Jade instead! Very interesting.

But still, she IS in the room right now with 2 of those 4 people, AKA Roxy and Kanaya, so that's really really good! The only thing I'm afraid of is, Dirk pulled quite the number on Kanaya's state of mind so it might be hard to get her along in the resistance against Dirk? And who even knows if Roxy will believe that her dear old friend needs to be stopped and will be willing to assist in it.

Hopefully they'll get in touch with Dave soon.

And then, as for Terezi, we'll first have to wait and see what Dirk's got planned for her.

Page 41:

......WOOOAAAAH!!!

Okay, even though that was a short page and we've basically been listening to Dirk talk almost this ENTIRE Epilogue, this is EXACTLY the kind of info dump we needed.

I'm still trying to process what he just said here...

So he KNOWS he can be seen as a villain here, and basically EXPECTS to be stopped at some point. But along the way, he'll try to execute his plans anyway and try to get done what he believes needs to be done?

Holy shit.

That's... so like Dirk, and also... so much like Doc Scratch / Lord English?

I mean, think about it, the masterminds taking control of the narration and/or the events that take place, ensuring that over a long timespan their plans will be executed and while at the same time basically seeding the opposition that will eventually stop them!

Woah, now we know for sure where THAT part of their genetics came from!

I mean, obviously Caliborn is no fool himself, but this is exactly the kind of mastermind thing that fits Dirk most.

Also, the part of the text here where Dirk claims that he's afraid of not existing, that fits so well with his conversation with the Auto-Responder just prior to becoming Arquiusprite, where the latter claimed that he was afraid to not exist.

And... did Dirk just confirm exactly how he's going to be stopped by the end of this Epilogue? That Dave will cut off his head and cause a Just death?

Dang.

So the entire time in this Epilogue, where Dirk had a running gag with Dave telling him that the solution to every problem to decapitate him wasn't just a morbid joke referring to what happened in [S] Collide, no... he was giving him hints how to stop him for good.

Fucking hell!

Talking it over with plainWonder here, we were debating if further up in this Epilogue there are going to be some more callbacks to earlier moments from Homestuck, that will turn out to have been (retroactive?) foreshadowing for stuff that's yet to happen, similarly to how Dave(peta)sprite flew up to the sun like a piece of garbage.

And let's not forget, Terezi listening to John bleed while she smells him die! Holy shit I can't believe I forgot to react to that part on that earlier page, because god DAMN that was an insane callback I can't believe actually came true after all this time.

Anyway, I really needed this page. It helps to at least get a better grasp on, yes, this is still Dirk and this fits with his personality, and he knows exactly what he's doing and that he will be stopped.

And actually, it also fits very much with what happened with [S] Dirk: Synchronize and [S] Dirk: Unite where he pulled of a great masterful plan to "fix" everything, and didn't even hesitate to sacrifice his own real self to accomplish it. And now again, he's doing the same thing, though in how far what he's doing is actually needed to "fix" things this time around will remain to be seen...

And yet, there's still so much unclear. Like, what the heck is Dirk actually planning to do here?? And if he's leaving Earth behind, how will anyone follow him? Is he "just" going into space with that ship o Jake's, or is he actually leaving the reality behind (because how would he even do that first of all, and how would anyone even be capable of following without John's retconning powers?)?

Lastly, I just want to mention that I really like he gave a sneaky compliment to Dave there: "Who could wield such control over people’s choices and the course of events without ultimately becoming the enemy of anyone who notices? Maybe only a stronger person than I could manage to pull it off. Someone like Dave."

Page 42:

Holy SHIT this is an epic series of pages!

God you wouldn't BELIEVE how hard I was cheering here when Kanaya regained her sanity and started thinking clearly again. I'm so happy that she truly realizes now what's going on, and Roxy as well.

It's unfortunate that Jade couldn't give all the information in time. I mean, she did manage to give some hints that Dirk was feeding Kanaya thoughts, but she couldn't explain that he was actually controlling their every action.

But this is good, this is a really good start.

And okay, it's unfortunate that Jade has fallen away again. But at least I do trust Alternate Calliope much more as a narrator now than I trust Dirk.

In general, she doesn't actually seem to influence anyone into doing something they wouldn't want to do anyway. Okay, maybe she let herself go with Jane's obsession with the Sucker, I'll give you that. But other than that, she seems to be doing fine?

And being the very definition of passive, she probably won't directly address Roxy or Kanaya here and tell them exactly what's going on or what they should do. They'll unfortunately have to find out for themselves and do something about it.

So, we did get a bit more of a hint as to what Dirk is going to do exactly:

"Who’s doing the thinking, and who’s having the thoughts?

Does that mean he's going to look for Andrew Hussie??? The guy who wrote Homestuck and was controlling the narration for so long?

I mean, CAN he even do that? Is that guy even still around? Last we saw of him he was in the Furthest Ring, right where Lord English was wreaking havoc.

To go back to my earlier theory, did Aradia round up a bunch of survivors in the Furthest Ring, and is Andrew among them? Is Dirk going THERE? And how is he going to reach it from Earth?

For that matter, how did Terezi reach it in the first place? Did John zap her there? Or can they actually "exit" the Genesis Frog into the Incipisphere by going to the very boundaries of the universe, and can Dirk go to the Furthest Ring that way?

Or, like plainWonder is suggesting to me here, was Andrew's original home on some weird ass planet in Universe C? And that Dirk's headed to there now?

Okay, there should be nobody left there anymore seeing as Andrew's dead and probably still lying around there somewhere, Spades Slick, The Felt, Authour II, and Ms. Paint all went through those Fenestrated Walls into Doc Scratch's appartment and then the clock to go into the Furthest Ring.

...

Hmmm

There's a bunch of possibilities here.

Maybe Dirk's going to look for Andrew's typewriter and/or computer in his castle, that we saw him use sometimes during Homestuck.

Or he's going to retrieve Andrew's corpse for whatever reason.

Or he's going to take those Fenestrated Walls into Doc Scratch's appartment... which should now be inside the Black Hole??? Is he going to take it to Alternate Calliope or something? Or maybe the appartment still exists within the Green Sun due to spacetime shenanigans, and he's going to take the same route that Spades Slick took into the Furthest Ring and go to Aradia that way?

Or Dirk is planning something else entirely of course and I could be entirely wrong!

I'm getting more and more excited to find out!

It's interesting how Dirk mentioned that "a bunch of them" will be leaving the planet to go after him. So, definitely not everyone. Just Kanaya, Roxy, Dave and...????

Also, Dirk states he's already gone. What does that mean then for the offer he gave Terezi to come along with him? Did she accept or refuse off-screen then?

Page 43:

God DAMN the awesome string of pages continues!!!!

First of all, I'm so glad that Roxy and Kanaya went to Dave and Karkat, those were exactly the right persons to contact for this.

There were a lot of really precious good moments on this page: Dave and Karkat's adorable interaction with each other, Roxy being "his dad" now, DAVE SLIPPING INTO HIS OEDIPUS AGAIN, Dave being so worried about John, and Karkat assuming the role of leader again!!!

This page is such a goldmine.

I'm so glad Karkat's taking up the role of leader again, by himself and without any urging. It makes sense, all other people who have assumed leader-like roles before are on the other ship (Dirk, John, Rose, Terezi sorta)

And so if I read correctly, it seems like starting from the next page we'll be going back to more regular narration? So Alternate Calliope will completely omit her "personality", to make the narration as objective as possible.

What I don't entirely understand is the things she said about swapping "speaker". First I thought she meant she'd leave Jade's body and take over someone else's, but perhaps instead it means she will attribute the "you-ness" to other characters?

So that we'll "be" Dave, Roxy, Karkat, or Kanaya at different points, or not?

And the implications from the narration seem to be that John's corpse, and by extension Terezi, are indeed on Dirk's ship, alas. :(

I wonder if we're now going to continue from solely their perspective and their chase of Dirk, or if we're still going to see some things from Dirk's perspective.

Plus, is anyone else going to join this crew? Jane's probably going to stay behind seeing as she's now the president, but what about Jake and the other Calliope?

Also, I wonder, did Squarewave go along with Dirk or did he merely bring some stuff on board and then leave again?

I'm worried about what Alternate Calliope's implying here, that John's role seems to be done. Are we really going to see nothing more of him in this entire Epilogue?

It's so hard to believe, kind of, with how crucial he's always been to the plot of Homestuck.

On the other hand, perhaps it's now truly the time for his friends to shine. Maybe at the very end of the Epilogue he'll turn out to be capable of being revived by Jane after all? That would be nice.

And else, well, I'm already curious what the Candy Epilogue will have in store for him. :P

Man, these pages really were a breath of fresh air after the last few heavy ones. Finally a bit of clarity to Dirk's actions, and finally some signs of hope! :D

#Homestuck #The Homestuck Epilogues #Meat #reaction #Dirk #Alternate Calliope #Jade #Kanaya #Roxy #Dave #Karkat

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analytic-chaoticism · 5 years

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Who’s Going To Die In The Homestuck Epilogue Tomorrow?

Homestuck is finally ending for real now so, obviously, somebody is staring down the barrel of Hussie’s final Chekhov’s gun, except also for real now. After 10 years, the shed wall has more bullet holes than wood knots and the proverbial horse stands dutifully awaiting the next shot in a series of hundreds, but it might actually get put out of its misery forever this time, with John and Vriska - in my mind - the most obvious candidates for permadeath. I’ll briefly discuss the (de)merits of both outcomes - and how both could (maybe, hopefully, please?) be averted - under the cut.

For context, I’m assuming that John will meet Terezi and Vriska at the Green Sun/Black Hole before he goes gallivanting with them through time and space.

We’ve known John Egbert for 10 years and for all the characters and perspective switching we’ve done since 4/13/2009, he is our protagonist. Homestuck is a story about breaking free from fated suffering - the will of Lord English - and becoming an independent agent, so it should only make sense that the main character is an embodiment of that freedom: the Heir of Breath.

It’s for this reason that John dying forever at the end of it all - having survived the death of his dad, an omnicidal dog god, the reset of reality, misadventure in the bubbles, a solo retcon journey through Paradox Space, a fight with Caliborn and another on the horizon, killing the Condesce, and making it to Earth C - would be really bad narratively and philosophically! There are no merits! Let’s go over why it Just Won’t Happen.

1. As the quintessential bildungsroman character (a story requiring the survival of its protagonist to gain experience of the world, find their place in it, and mature with hope for the future) and audience surrogate, killing him in the final act would just be bad writing. It goes against the story’s holistic narrative and philosophical arc and totally undermines Act 7 thematically.

2. In a story about overcoming fated suffering, the depressed character with the most repressed trauma - who represents freedom and is working to help everyone escape that suffering - dying without coming to terms with sadness and reconciling with his friends and purpose to find happniness? It’s even worse writing. The only possible merit to his death is having to directly confront that trauma in a super sadstuck way; what stakes will it take for him to overcome his disaffected ennui, right? But killing him is a real shitty way of dealing with those problems. Dying with regret is just... super lame. It could be said many characters die with possible regret in HS but if a character doesn’t at some point get revived in one way or another and their death served a purpose, then, on word of God, they just weren’t that important.

3. It defies the narrative of fantastical escapism. At one of its many cores, Homestuck is a story about kids playing a crazy game about wish fulfillment: bringing the dead back to life, meeting their friends, having an adventure, and becoming super heroes. As the Heir of Breath, especially with the retcon powers, John is ALL ABOUT fantastical escapism. John dying for suffering, subverting escapism, is 100% counterintuitive thematically. Super unsatisfying conclusion to his arc.

4. People cite this scene with Scratch as evidence that John is going to have a permanent heroic death one day, but I would argue that the metaphysical way in which John would permanently be tying himself to the narrative to ‘maintain canonicity’ (whatever the FUCK that entails) would be a little bit more than a Just or Heroic thing. For me, this was more about Scratch acknowledging John as - though not infallible personally - a totally good guy. And note that reference to Vriska and her ‘Justness’ at the end there:

Instead, I imagine the whole situation, despite the seeming distinction between Meat and Candy, COULD go something a little more like this -

A story that is just meat - dense with exposition, action, violence, and tension (plotcentric) - is bad, and a story that is just candy - light with fluff, fanservice, frivolity, and comfort (charactercentric) - is bad. In isolation neither is of consequence to the reader, and reader investment is what this whole epilogue and the quest to avoid ‘dissipation’ is about. You need both to develop the other in a healthy and satisfying way, ultimately producing a well-developed set of characters. Homestuck is the best story of all time and it’s been meat and candy all the way, I don’t foresee that changing. For me, the ‘dual epilogue’ is a 1+1=3 situation. Typheus’ choice for John here was a practice for a metacosmic-scale third option regarding the meat/candy ‘binary’ he’s faced with now.

The whole story, John - though he represents freedom - has never made his own choice besides in this moment. He’s gone on quests for prophets, just like he’s doing now, and done whatever people told him or expected him to do. Becoming a free agent is the capstone of his character arc and what better way to realize that than assuming control of the narrative and Doing Whatever You Want For Real - the Ultimate Riddle (as many people theorize) which I imagine we’ll see more of soon being ‘do as you will.’

But let’s imagine that John does become in every way a martyr for the narrative itself in a Christ-like sacrifice befitting of the Easter Sunday I will probably be reading this upd8 on. How could he get out of it because, trust me, John Is Not Dying Forever:

Transcendence. We’ve descended and ascended, so what comes next?

Juju nonsense. The house or something else, who knows?

Denizen nonsense. I’ll get into this in a second.

A second John takes his place and we get ours back. ‘2 endings,’ right?

The Ultimate Self is gearing up to be important. It’s Jesus 101 people.

So I’m expecting Abraxas, Jake and possibly Karkat’s denizen, to make a significant appearance in the epilogue. The epilogue itself, as the rest of the story, is geared up (with it’s black and white symbolism) to basically revolve around the cherubs which I fully expect to get more lore on. As @revolutionaryduelist details in this video, Abraxas is “technically at the center of Paradox Space, as a deity that represents both everything in the multiverse that exists ever both physically and conceptually,and the very process which leads to the creation of those things.” Abraxas is, as the true god in enlightenment, the opposite of Yaldabaoth, the false god in ignorance: more relevant, truthful, and essential as a deity - representing the 3 pillars of canon. Yaldabaoth was Caliborn’s denizen, giving him the clock and juju he required to assume ultimate power in the first place. It makes sense that Abraxas would have a hand in his undoing. Abraxas also shares a connection with the cherubs physically and metaphorically, and considering the importance of the cherubs, I think it’s safe to assume this similarity will become relevant. In this way, Abraxas could Just Get Up To Some Nonsense to save John (who is related to Typheus, a potentially Christ-like figure within the denizen genealogy as John is to the story). Resurrection of Christ anybody? Our snakey parent who art above Paradox Space? As somebody connected to magic, it also makes sense that Abraxas could pull off the miracle of the century if needs be.

All in all, John’s not dying. So what about...

Vriska?

Vriska dying forever is almost ALL merits. This is NOT because I hate Vriska: she is one of the best characters ever written, has never done anything wrong, if she dies I will weep, and I NEED Vrisrezi to become Earth C endgame, but I can’t deny the narrative quality of a potential sacrifice.

Vriska has never had direct karmic comeuppance for anything she’s done besides Make Her Pay and getting killed by Terezi: all other forms of punishment for her actions were either problems with self-hatred or people she cares about suffering - there’s been little direct consequential action taken against her. Even when She’s 8ack with a second chance she gets to dominate and bully others and still be the leader. And look at what she did to Tavros. That was just mean (but will hopefully be relevant in the epilogue because I love GCATavros oops). Her character is also marred in the emulation of Mindfang, and being an inauthentic individual is a Great Crime in Paradox Space which you could say she has been punished for but we can always squeeze a few more drops out of the cloth. Key to understanding Vriska is knowing that she has little ill will. She said herself, she wants to be a hero. That’s why she’s obsessed with becoming the Most Important Person. She wants to save everyone. It just so happens this conflicts with her selfishness (coming in parts from Spidermom, Mindfang, and her caste) which sweeps people up as collateral damage. The important thing is that she feels really guilty about losing control to her ego/persona and hurting people.

And she turns to John for absolution. For freedom from her circumstance and misery.

EB: i guess i had no idea how different we really were.

EB: what i am hearing is seriously scaring the shit out of me!

AG: Yeah, I know. I wish we didn't have to 8e so different. I'm just trying to 8e honest with you, 8ecause like I said, I have nowhere else to go.

John is ignorant of her culture and her behaviour at large, and his kind, innocent disposition makes him the perfect person to tell her that she hasn’t done anything wrong, or - at least - can become a better person. That’s why his opinion matters so much to her when nobody else’s does.

And even knowing that she’s not a flawless person, she still doesn’t think that she deserved to die. She has never been truly absolved of her guilt, and turning to a stranger - and an alien, whom you manipulate even though NOT doing that is the WHOLE point - to do that for her is cheating in the same way Tricksterism was for the alpha kids.

That said, John does present a genuine avenue of character development and emotional vulnerability for the girl who would become (Vriska). (Vriska) became her own person free of Mindfang’s shadow, having overcome the trauma of her past and the need to be ‘the best,’ which is as close to well-adjusted as we could hope for Vriska to be. But this character arc - a form of redemption itself - ends with the death of (Vriska) with GO!Terezi as Paradox Space collapses around them in the most emotional and romantic moment in storytelling history. John’s effects have yet to take hold on post-retcon Vriska as they did on pre-retcon Vriska starting from the above interaction forward, as Vriska is still a 8ig 8itch. John has come to recognize this, and I’m sure it will come up at some point, perhaps inspiring some kind of change in our anti-heroine.

Sacrificing herself for canonicity - maintaining all relevance EVER in a mostly selfless but still kind of selfish act that represents a major step in a redemption she would never get to complete but may not fully deserve besides - is the perfect end for her personally and thematically. Vriska saving John would be wild after their entire relationship including but not limited to the pivotal moments of their ghosts meeting and him saving her life so she could once again experience relevance in the first place; she’d basically be repaying him: something she has never done willingly for totally selfless reasons in good faith and karma before. Wouldn’t that be the most bittersweet character growth to end on? John would FINALLY be a mechanism for her absolution. It was cheating when John didn’t know her. Now it’s been earned after their relationship has evolved so thoroughly and John sees her for what she is, presumably removing his ability to absolve her from the equation entirely. What a 180 that would be. Her arc would technically be incomplete as a character who never fully matured, but what a beautiful step in that journey to end on. It would also be a form of direct recompense to John, having manipulated him in the past as Scratch alluded to! The (Just) master becomes the (Heroic) student! What a great fuck you to Scratch that would be after he ruined her life and fucked up her personality (so would her surviving to become a better person outside of Scratch’s narrative but we’ll get into that).

Vriska has been primed to destroy the Green Sun for a loooooooong time.

Within the scope of the story before we were introduced to serious meta like ‘dissipation,’ destroying the Green Sun would have been the most significant thing a person could ever do. But there’s a reality beyond Paradox Space and a wider ‘canon’ that needs to be maintained both within and outside of the Green Sun’s influence. Vriska never truly got to cash in on the Green Sun imagery. What if she got a second chance to do so?

Assume in some way that the most significant object within Paradox Space and its resulting black hole eating all of reality - which, as Terezi showed us in the Credits (making it still canon) has something strange at its centre - plays a role in maintaining canonicity. I know, a bit of a gimme, right? Presumably,we’re going to explore the confrontation with Lord English as part of the ‘unloading’ of the house juju. If the mechanism for canonicity lies in all this green mess, we’re killing 2 birds with 1 stone! Her relationship with John serves its original purpose in a newly genuine context and the green sun foreshadowing would finally amount to something.

I think Vriska would be almost perfectly content to die like this. It fulfils her philosophy and places her in canonical lore as the most significant, undeniable hero. As Hussie discusses in the Viz book 4 author notes, one of the dynamics Homestuck revolves around is Vriska inserting herself into everything and the Scourge Sisters’ karmic cycle that arises from that, so wiping it all clean would be a fitting end.

That said, I don’t want Vriska to die forever, because I love her with all my heart and I would never want to do that to Terezi, and Earth C would be way more fun if Vriska got to fully develop as a character with friends outside of canonical restraints/pressures. Let her enjoy candy after a life of meat! (Vriska) got to enjoy candy with Meenah and Terezi after she gave up on meat. Vriska has never had true candy comparatively. All of her relationships and romantic leads have had undertones of contention and manipulation that it would be fantastic to be free of in a new world where she can leave the burdens of ‘importance’ behind. This happening, I feel, is one of (if not the best ways) Hussie can further the commentary on candy being just as important as meat: making someone who has prioritized meat her whole life happy with candy once she learns to let it into her life. Meat is NOT the only important thing, Vriska.

How could she escape dying forever if she wanted to sacrifice herself to save John from doing the same? Sounds pretty final. I can’t imagine the ultimate self is in her near future, she doesn’t have retcon powers, and unless she pulls a juju out of her ass (maybe auryn somehow???) then the only mechanism I can see working is denizen nonsense. Beyond this, we know Terezi would not be content to let Vriska be dead forever. I was thinking maybe, on Earth C once the dust has settled and canon is Gucci, the kids could use their god tier powers to recreate Vriska (Terezi/Dirk for memory and self, life from Jane, a body from Roxy/Jake/Jade etc.) but that might be a long shot. Who knows. But also resurrecting Vriska as a free person in a free world would be... really Cool. Like, wow... what a scene. Ultimately, I think both potentialities would be pretty rad and would make me weep like a baby. I’m open to anything here.

In the end, we’ll see what happens tomorrow! I started Homestuck when I was 12 and its influence on me for the last 6 years as both a person and a creative is incomprehensible. I cannot imagine who I would be without it, and I don’t want to. Making analysis/theory posts and getting involved with community discussion has been one of the best things ever and I’m glad I could squeeze this one in before the end of everything. I’ll have plenty more to write about Homestuck and Hiveswap in the future, but it’s crazy to think this is the end of theorizing for Homestuck proper. Homestuck as a property has plenty more to give and I’ll be here with ideas for all of it :)

Thanks for reading!

#Homestuck #John Egbert #Vriska Serket #Homestuck Spoilers #Homestuck Epilogue #Epilogue #Abraxas #Homestuck theory #My theory #Me

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abundantchewtoys · 5 years

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HS Epi: Meat p10 reaction

So, with little fanfare, we've passed the point in time that is the Masterpiece.

I wonder if John's next interaction with the outside world will be granting himself retcon powers, or whether from his perspective the next thing is being summoned by Vriska. That being said, I wonder how Vriska will react to seeing these people emerge from the house artefact, you'd think she'd be very surprised. Will John & co. have felt it to be hours from their perspective, being trapped? Or longer? Can't have been years, or their relative age difference wouldn't matter any more.

Also, is Davepetasprite^2 nearby for their confrontation with LE? If not, this definitely won't be the final showoff! But if she is, well... I wonder how things turn out, this almost can't already be it for Lord English. Then again, if the perspective now switches back to Earth C for a long time, by the time we switch back the plot could be culminating.

I also wonder if there will be any interaction with the people outside the Black Hole's event horizon (I know, contradiction in termini there). Like, post-retcon Aradia, who'd been watching the mayhem unfold.

---

"Jane Crocker sweeps into her office" Well then. That answers that. Mary Poppins-style entry for them, then? :P Courtyard Droll isn't around to be wielding an umbrella, fortunately.

I'm interested to get a good look into her mind, given all we've heard said about the state of Earth C, and Dave's mistrust in her. Also wondering how her relationship with her Dad has evolved over the years. Wouldn't at all be surprised if he was still leaving supportive notes as well as confectionary in her office.

Blaperile has a good point, Dirk might be coming around, being her campaign manager. Their relationship was always interesting, due to the similarities to as well as the differences with John & Dave's.

"The sun cuts through her venetian blinds, painting butter-yellow strips of light all the way from one end of her impeccably tailored office to the other." In other words, exactly the state in which a private investigator likes their office to brood. :P Stations may change but demeanors don't do as quickly.

"It’s a lovely day, like most days, so not terribly remarkable except for the horrid news that she has just received at her customary morning press conference." There's competition afoot and its name is Vantas.

"[Jane] brushes her hands over her hips to smooth the wrinkles out of her powder-blue pencil skirt. Then she hems, haws, puffs out her cheeks, and takes a very deep breath before snatching a pillow off the nearest couch so that she can scream into it." So majestic. And such a Jane thing to do, too (even though Rose started the whole screaming into pillows for Homestuck), remember the time she was being 'supportive' when Jake was contemplating Dirk's affections? Both times, really.

"There are, surely, a multitude of ways for a person to find out that an acquaintance is running against you in a presidential election. From a carapacian reporter, in front of twenty-six other members of the interspecies press, was not the method Jane would have personally chosen." Welp. Well, yeah, it stood to reason Dave wasn't going to say anything, given his misgivings about her. 27 reporters, huh. Kinda wondering about how representative they were to the entirety of the populace. All the bigwig stations must've been represented, of course, but then it would seem humanity has an overly large representation in those already.

"She cannot believe that Karkat would do this to her. This is no longer a political fiat (which the election would surely have been had she run uncontested by any other civilization-founding celebrities) but rather a battle between “friends.” What did Vantas think he was doing?" Well, uh, it seems that he's giving you fair competition where you seemed to be of the idea there wouldn't be any. That's not really a good starting point for a politician, Jane. Seems like her business-minded attitude is indeed influencing her campaign strategy.

"This could not have possibly been Karkat’s idea." Yeah, I'd thought she'd be on to it quickly.

"He is not cut out for politics, neither intellectually nor in the very important matter of social constitution. Certainly not when it comes to economic policy. In fact, Jane is pretty sure that Karkat Vantas would probably literally burst into flame if too many people happened to look at him at the same time, like a vampire walking out into the sun." I was going to say that's unfair of her, but then she's never known Karkat when he's aflame with purpose, only the Karkat that's been hurt too much and suffered too many losses to remain motivated. Also, of course she'd "think of the economy" first. :P That's hilarious given Dave's concerns.

"Wait. Jane lowers the pillow from her face and stares at her brass-and-glass art deco ceiling. Was that vampire thing xenophobic against Kanaya?" Well, at least we know that IF Jane's really xenophobic, as Dave fears, she's trying to become aware of when she is and doing something about it. Of course, trying and succeeding are two different things - just as Karkat.

As for it being hurtful, well... Good thing she never met Game Over Kanaya, she might have had some objections to death-by-light-from-above.

"Dave was certainly no Dirk Strider, no Rose Lalonde, no Roxy, but he had that same scheming gene, buried deep down beneath his transparent onion layers of posturing and, frankly, rather outdated humor. An instinct to plan." Well, I wouldn't have said as much - if it was genetically determined there's no reason Dave couldn't have just not inherited those genes. But then, I'm all here to see Dave's take on scheming, sure. He's had a great example in John planting ideas about apple juice in his head. The bar is already set.

"And despite being inarguably the dimmest of his family’s impressive ecto-biological stock...

Oh, dear. Stock. That’s likely a problematic word, isn’t it?" Yep, seems like Jane really is trying. Can't believe I'm saying this, but if Kankri were here, he might have some good advice for her. A lot of bad, too, but still.

"Despite being the least mentally gifted member of his family" Eesh, okay, but she's still got a lot of prejudices to work out.

"Dave has always had an awful lot of opinions on the economy. In fact, Jane cannot remember a single conversation she’s ever had with him that wasn’t about the economy. She thinks back to one time at John’s eighteenth birthday when Dave engaged her in a rigorous and rather one-sided debate about deregulation and the failure of “neoliberal austerity measures” until Karkat had to come over and put his hands over his roommate’s mouth to make him stop talking." Well, I guess he's really, REALLY concerned. Can't blame the guy, though, but poor Jane, Rose knows what that's like, being on the other side of that trailing, lumbering monologuing. At least Rose's monologue's don't meander. :P

"carapacians were widely known to be swayed by underdog populism." That's because their civilisation was founded by WV, isn't it?

"And the consorts? Who had even given them the right to vote in the first place? In any other year..." Oh, so... Does that mean the consorts only got their right to vote so recently, after 5000 years. That's... Well, that might just be indicative that until recently, their political activism was nothing to write home about.

Jane starts to chew a pencil and it's just so FITTING for her, she's so fidgety, it's probably how Jade ended up being so giddy.

"In any other year, this wouldn’t be a problem. She’d be happy to accept a graceful, temporary defeat and let Karkat play president for a couple of years. After all, unlike her, he was not immortal." ... Eesh, so, yeah, that confirms that Karkat's godhood isn't expected to be eternal, unlike the humans. They could be wrong about it.

But what is so special about the current year, is the political situation on Earth C THAT volatile, or is Jane aware of things about to unfold on a cosmic scale - or even pan-cosmic, if she knows about the events back in canon with the Black Hole 'n all.

"But Earth C’s paper-thin idyllic history was very close to a boiling point—its very first boiling point, in fact, which will have everything to do with the problematic nature of troll reproduction." Ahhhh, right. So that's why she's aiming for the reigns. Didn't think her 'political takeover' had so moral reasons. ... Or, well, at least humanitarian.

"The first generation of natural-born trolls obviously cannot be entrusted to a troll." ...

Well that's just cruel. I know she'll have reasons given troll history on Alternia and B2 Earth alike, but it's their purpose as gods to change the world for the better, together.

Guess now we get to see the parts of her thinking that gave Dave reason to brand her a fascist, semi-serious or not.

"The citizens of Earth C were able to rest easy knowing that the government held careful rein over the... well, over matters of equity. No one could possibly trust something so important to a troll, knowing what everyone knew about their violent history." So it's the hemospectrum she fears would be reinstated. She's equating their biology with their ideology then, thinking natural-born trolls are fundamentally more oppressive as to those birthed through scientific means. Oooh boy. That's a whole steaming pot of problematic thinking.

"Jane presses her eyes shut and runs her fingers along the fine-grain patterns in her mahogany-paneled desk. She is about to think something that she has promised herself never to think again. In fact, she is about to say it—this horrible, ghoulish, girlish thought that used to rule her world and make her so terribly weak. The shameful thought is expressed out loud in the form of a defeated sigh." ... Is it... "I wish Dad was here?" Even if he's still alive, she might have tried to become her own woman, cutting more ties than is healthy.

"JANE: I need Jake." Pfffff, okay, yeah, that I understand. She needs his support to swing the voters. Guess Jane is also trying very hard to be "over him", just like Jake with Dirk. I can see how well that is going for her. Now I wonder how the Nannasprites are doing.

"She spins around and, still sitting on her desk, presses a familiar entry on her phone’s contact list." Either it's Jake and it's familiar to her because she still looks at it ten times every day, or Dirk's because they get along so well and are working together on her campaign.

"JAKE: Ahoy ahoy!" ... Yeah, this is going to be so cumbersome for Jane, I can just feel it, her old feelings now causing quite the opposite response towards everything that makes Jake who he is.

"the ol’ horse tranquilizer trick." Just... just how many times has Dirk pulled this on him already? And how many more times is Jake willing to go through with their show?

"JAKE: Which i suppose i should have seen coming, as dirk has ended all of our matches in this fashion for the past week." ... Jake. Jake, honey, you need a coach. A non-robotic one. Or settle for a non-shitty spirit guide. I know that narrows it down to basically zero, as far as sprites are concerned, but still.

"JANE: Oh dear. That sounds absolutely terrible, Jake. Is there anything I can do to help?" I wouldn't like it if Jane keeps pretending to care for Jake if there wasn't any truth left to the gesture.

"JAKE: Help? Gadzooks woman! I hardly think myself in need of help. JAKE: Its a jolly good adventure working with someone so predictably unpredictable as our good friend dirk!" Then again, it would be hard not to get exasperated by all of this... airheadedness, well meaning as it is.

"You would think that Jake enjoyed the sadomasochistic nature of his and Dirk’s personal and professional relationships. Judging from the last conversation about election strategy with Dirk, he seems to be perfectly aware of this feature of Jake’s personality. You can’t be too nice when courting his endorsement, Dirk would say. He doesn’t respond to nice." So Dirk is still being rather methodical in his interactions with Jake. :/ But I mean, Jake does respond better to challenges, at least initially. He appears not be scared off/by Dirk though, I wonder how he's worked through his feelings about their breakup?

"something big and hollow and metal connecting with Jake’s head. When Jake comes back to the phone, he’s yelling into it." Jake's life is just like a cartoon on even the best of days, isn't it?

"I appreciate very much that you have called me out of the blue to say such nice things to me with no ulterior motive!

From anyone else, this would have been a portentous statement. However, Jane knows that Jake English could not have possibly meant this with anything but the utmost sincerity." Well, I wouldn't mind it for Jake to have developed a level of self-awareness, but yeah... That's unlikely by now, isn't it?

"JAKE: Because i must note that although i try to stay sporting about what comes at me, i cant say that i am chuffed about how much of my correspondence lately has to do with the marketing of my image. JAKE: Its beginning to feel like all people want from me is to stick my derriere on a signpost for their own profit." ... Well, okay, he's become self-aware to the extent he realizes people idolize him and pine for his affections. But that's just because he was so very much affected by that during the session. It'll take a lot longer for him to pick up on more subtle and rarer things, though.

"It must be so difficult. For you more than the rest of us, due to your, let’s say... JANE: Natural gifts? JAKE: Huh?" Well, guess he doesn't realize his good looks yet, at least.

"JANE: But you know that I have always wanted what’s best for you, right? JANE: And I am ready to give that to you. JAKE: To give me what? JANE: The best, Jake. The very best." That could be very ominous, "what's best for you". But what would it be if it were sincere? A way to follow in his Grandma's footsteps, while ensuring he doesn't blunder and blow up anyting unintentionally?"

Jake is quiet a moment, and Jane can hear the rusty gears turning in his head." Insert "*thinking*" smiley here.

"JANE: You should stop by to see me this evening! JAKE: Do you mean my evening or yours? Were in different time zones right now and i dare say that the sun just went down here so if you wanted to have a soiree on my time youve missed your chance." It'd be a fair question, assuming Jane could've been in his neighbourhood. I'm sure their meetup won't go quite as nefarious as pretending they're dating to the press, right? ... Right, Jane?"

Jane feels her fake smile flexing so hard that it was beginning to hurt. Oh yes, she loved this man in basically every category that you could possibly love a person, but sometimes talking to him is like trying to build a house of cards while riding a mechanical bull." Ah, so they were facetiming? :P Note the past tense in 'loved'. :/ Well, old flames do still elicit feelings of friendship, a lot of times.

"JANE: Mine, of course! I’ll have the best year of your favorite crocodile-made scotch flown in from the Consort Kingdom and we’ll have a little catch-up.

Jake actually hates scotch, and only drinks it for appearance’s sake. But for this—for this unbelievably pivotal moment in the history of the planet that they created with their bare hands—Jane is willing to spend a few thousand boonbucks to watch her old friend pretend to sip at the same glass for a couple of hours while prattling on." So: A) Crocodiles might be living in Scotland, if the scotch authentic. Highlander Crocs in kilts and playing bagpipes. Glorious. B) Boonbucks are the currency running the economy, which explains how they can all be so rich. Of course, their influx of cash could've disrupted the economy, but if it had Dave's would've already complained about it. C) Guess there's never been something as disruptive to happen to Earth C as the Mother Grub, then. Not even natural disasters. D) Plan Fake Date is apparently, actually going to happen.

"Time to work your magic, Crocker." Magic being ruthless business-minded political scheming, I hope. Since she's serving Jake drinks he doesn't like, it'll all be for pretense, down to the drinks too. But I wouldn't like to be in Jake's shoes if she starts to fake-fancying him.

#homestuck #homestuck epilogues #homestuck liveblog #reaction #upd8 #spoiler alert #jane crocker

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momestuck · 5 years

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Epilogues: Meat ch 1-8 [Epilogue 1]

I’m eating so you get one more of these before I try to salvage a bit of work from today.

We’ve read through the whole of the ‘Candy’ branch of the story. It went places! Spoilers for it below.

Somehow Jane turned into a fascist dictator, Karkat became a heroic resistance leader, a whole lot of ships were made and broken, Dirk killed himself but somehow it was fake (???), John went through multiple existential crises and a failed marriage, Jade destroyed Dave and Karkat’s relationship but ultimately got with Dave, Gamzee was brought back to perform a ‘redemption arc’ and was generally awful but ultimately ended up getting sexually assaulted and then murdered by Vriska, let’s not forget that the cast had three entire fucking babies and one of them ran into her own namesake... and Obama was there. And that’s not even covering all of it...

But that was all in a universe that was ‘inconsequential’; it was in a bubble disconnected from ‘canon’, spread out on the event horizon.

Now we wind the clock back, and consider what happens if John chooses on that day to go forth, recruit a group of other selves from elsewhere in Paradox Space, and fight Lord English, as ‘canon’ dictates he eventually must...

Chapter 1

This one is in second person, and features narrative prompts, which was also true of the first chapter of Candy.

This time, John eats the meat in a really gross way, manages to not puke everywhere, says awkward goodbyes, writes a bunch of letters, and fucks off back into Canon(TM).

Not a lot to say about that! P much what we expected. Wonder where he’s gonna end up?

Chapter 2

I pretty much expected them to dive straight into Canon, but no, in fact similar plots as the first one seem to be abrew. We meet Dave and Karkat - no Jade here, this time - as Dave breaks the news of Jane’s presidential bid.

So, Dave proposes, Karkat should run against her. Which was a possibility floated in the other story... it does feel rather like, at this point, whatever V said, I might have read them in the wrong order.

Dave brings up Obama as a reason he’d want to see a good president - Obama who, in Dave’s timeline, got killed by meteors before he could ‘fix the economy’. Which I guess makes his appearance in the other branch a little less of a non-sequitur, though still fucking weird don’t get me wrong!

DAVE: or maybe not... maybe there was like an escape hatch in the white house that led to his own secret presidential session of sburb

DAVE: what if hes just chillin there now

KARKAT: DAVE, I THINK WE’VE COVERED YOUR “OBAMA’S SECRET SESSION OF SBURB” THEORY WELL ENOUGH ALREADY.

So the Obama chapter was all payoff for a very long term brick joke? This is not the revelation I expected to be having in Meat.

Anyway, Dave basically explains how scary it is to have the human government in charge of troll reproduction, echoing Karkat’s words back at him. Apparently the way the whole weird eugenic system got put in place was that, before Kanaya arrived with the Mother Grub, the government reproduced trolls exclusively ectobiologically.

The other issue is... The Economy. We get a little note that, indeed, this is an alchemy-based post-scarcity economy:

DAVE: ok if shit goes sideways i guess we arent gonna see like raggedy turtles and pauper chess men standing in bread lines or anything

DAVE: thats just the nature of alchemy-based post-scarcity economies the depressions tend to be pretty mild

DAVE: but it will still be bad

DAVE: a healthy economy is fuckin IMPORTANT

DAVE: if for no other reason than it protects the societal context for what it means to be fucking rich, like us

So uh what do they spend money on... I guess there’s services, those can’t be alchemised (except for the fact that ludicrously advanced robotics exists?). someone actually has to work the alchemizer...

Anyway most of this chapter is... electoral strategy.

DAVE: consorts overwhelm the other kingdoms in sheer numbers but due to unscrupulous gerrymandering, all kinds of fucked up voter suppression policies and some electoral “counterbalancing” measures to account for their ridiculous population growth rate their voting power per capita is kind of pathetic

DAVE: also its hard to drive turnout

DAVE: this may come as a shock but legions of easily distracted low information amphibians primarily concerned with eating bugs and farming god damned mushrooms arent the most politically motivated demographic

The chapter ends with Dirk calling Dave... to... cut off his head. Yeah. That joke again.

OK, this sure is a direction. Welcome to Homestuck Electoralism Edition I guess. They probably won’t have quite as many kids?

Chapter 3

John apparently has a specific list of retcon interventions, apopros of Rose. The first is to appear on the battleship during the three year journey in the non-canon, pre-retcon timeline, open a fridge containing Aradia and Gamzee (god I’ve forgotten so much), and take the ring that Aradia is holding (which ring is that again?). Then, John decides to shove Gamzee back in the fridge.

> Do everyone a favor and put an end to his preposterous narrative relevance.

So... we’re going with that, huh.

I’ve said enough about the Gamzee Issue already perhaps. But I guess I thought they were going to do more than to bring Gamzee back mostly to mock the idea of ‘redemption arcs’, and ‘punish’ him some more for being a bad character.

Chapter 4

John interrupts two other retcon-Johns, one trying to cancel out the other, a Dave, and a grimbark Jade during some of the shit that happened when Jade got mind controlled or whatever... it’s been a long time...

Dave’s the first recruit, along with Jade. John gives him a rather half-assed explanation about why, after several years of ‘boring adult lives’, they need to go and fight Lord English now.

Chapter 5

Back to the real story: Dave and Karkat’s electoral bid.

Dirk has apparently been... playing the heel in televised rap battles to Jake’s face so that Jake’s endorsement of Jane’s political candidacy would be more effective. Yeah.

Also he disagrees with Dave on fiscal policy. The cad.

He has a rather weird conversation of alternately discouraging and encouraging Dave and Karkat’s opposition. Then, to round out the chapter, V and Cephied deliver... an entire stanza of Jake’s rap. Oh boy.

At the end, Dirk... tranquilizes Jake (????????) to take another call from Rose.

This is the ‘real’, ‘canon’ storyline now? Oh Homestuck.

Chapter 6

John’s assembled a group of god tier kids in his back garden. The alpha and beta kids are present, but there are no trolls.

There’s a rather uncomfortable moment (for the reader, as well as John) when young Roxy hits on adult John.

You weren’t prepared to get passively hit on by the Definitely Not Legal version of a girl you used to have a crush on at the age she was when you first met her, only a few hours after you watched the Actually Legal version of her engage in passionate hand-holding with her possibly aromantic skeleton alien monster girlfriend.

‘Legal’, really!

Anyway, John feels rather strained watching this rather rushed rehash of the reunion scenes from the original comic. He wonders about the ethics of all this...

foooof i mean he’s not wrong! let’s call them the ‘child soldiers’ from here on out...

Chapter 7

Time to catch up with Rose. We finally learn what’s wrong with her: she’s ‘ascending’, taking on the full burden of the ‘ultimate self’.

The same is also happening to Dirk, but he is somehow more resilient to it. So that’s what Obama did to Dave, huh.

Also this puts the prompt ‘Dirk: Ascend’ before his suicide in a rather different light.

The pieces are thus falling into place: this is why Dirk was building a Rosebot. Quite possibly the Dirk and Rose who were flying away from Earth C in the Candy timeline actually entered it out of this timeline, which would explain how Dirk was alive.

Chapter 8

Time to see the full events of Caliborn’s ‘Masterpiece’.

This is all Caliborn dropping an extremely corny buildup:

CALIBORN: BUT NOW. THE TIME HAS COME.

CALIBORN: FOR EVERYONE TO SHUT UP ABOUT HOW GREAT MY MASTERPIECE WAS.

CALIBORN: AND THE TIME IS NOW AT HAND...

His laughter turns into a low, cracked gurgle. It spikes towards you in waves, distorts and pitches low. He is beyond pleased with himself, and with the line he is about to deliver.

CALIBORN: FOR YOU ALL TO *BECOME* MY MASTERPIECE!

We need more organs to give that the proper level of scare chord...

End of Epilogue 1

Well that explained at least some of the wild horseshit we experienced in Candy, I guess.

So somehow this is all according to keikaku, which is to say Dirk’s design - he fancies himself as an engineer, putting each piece in its proper place. Rose isn’t entirely in on it, but she will be. We still don’t know why Dirk’s doing this, why he needs Jane to be president, why he’s ultimately going to need a new SBurb session...

As for themes and stuff... this just felt like ‘setting the board’. Rather hastily, even though it’s a full eight chapters. Compared to the emotional heft of some of the stuff that happened in Candy, anyway... this is all plot.

#momestuck

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ardenttheories · 6 years

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can you explain why people don't like the ending? sure it make it ambiguous as to whether lord english dies, but I thought it was good

It’s not the Lord English thing that I saw people dislike when it came to the ending, honestly, although that was a significant issue a lot of people had that ended up being argued back and forth as a “lazy ending” or an “ambiguous ending”. It was the abruptness and the lack of clarity. Just off the top of my head, I know people were frustrated about:

- The confusion over the Alpha trolls and what had happened to them (as well as pretty much all the ghosts in general; we didn’t know if they were dead or not immediately after the game ended)

- The uncertainty over MLM relationships (Dave and Karkat, from what I saw some people complain, never had an official “yes we’re dating” moment in the same way RoseMary did, particularly since RoseMary ended up getting a wedding. Similarly, Dirk and Jake are left particularly ambiguous with us seeing them talk, and then seeing the Credits with them spending time together; there is never any closure on their relationship)

- Some people felt that a significant amount of plotholes were left open, and some characters were left completely undeveloped in comparison to others (for instance, the intense focus on Dave in the Retcon timeline but little focus on John; the uncertainty of what happened to Terezi and Vriska; Caliborn’s Masterpiece - a lot of it goes unexplained or lazily explained for a comic that is usually so dialogue-heavy).

- A lot of people were very upset over the fact that the Retcon timeline seemed to trash the development of characters, and some things just jumped out of nowhere. While I’ve seen people argue this away, I have to admit, some character development parts I really just don’t understand as well.

- I’ve seen a lot of confusion over the abuptness of the ending. People were expecting something big, and instead got a (substantially long) flash, and some silent panels, a tiny bit of text, and then another flash of them winning… and that was it? Homestuck was done, just like that. I think that is a lot of the dislike for the ending in general, admittedly.

- Some people were upset with certain choices in character meetings. I’ve seen a few people express dislike that John gets a reunion with Jane’s Dad because:

a) it means Jane doesn’t get that reunion, despite it being her dad, who she hasn’t seen in months

b) it means John is given a cheap “he finally found his dad!” after several years inside the game, when it isn’t his dad and has nowhere like the same effect as him actually finding his dad

I mean, just read this, from the r/homestuck subreddit from two years ago:

The pacing of when the last few panels were released left plenty of time for people to think some kind of twist would happen. Terezi: remem8er seemed to introduce a ton of new ideas and had lots of possible implications, exactly none of which turned out to be relevant. There was no twist, everything just worked out.

Several huge plot points went unexplained. We simply do not know what the house juju does, where Hussiespace is, what universe Caliborn and Calliope are from, or how the fuck Caliborn’s Masterpiece could have taken place. What happened to the Condesce of the Game Over timeline? What happened in the timeline John created by taking the Ring of Life? There are (mostly conflicting) theories for each of those points, but it’s looking like we will simply never know.

We also don’t know the ultimate fate of Vriska, Aradia, Sollux, the ghosts (including Meenah and Aranea), Davepetasprite^2, Jasprosesprite^2, GCATavrosprite (who literally did not appear in Collide), either of the Nanasprites, or Gamzee.

There was literally no character development after Terezi: remem8er. John and Jane should have had dialogue about/with their (“)father(”). Terezi and Vriska should have talked again, and Terezi x Happiness become a joke ‘ship’ because her character was left ambiguous. Karkat should have had some dialogue about how he felt about his role in Collide. Davekat deserved more development than I HOPE HE’S OK at the end. GCATavrosprite deserved some role and or dialogue in the new universe. John Terezi was completely abandoned.

Then there are the small issues, which are easily explained but never will be. Who flipped the frog switch? (Probably Jack with his first guardian powers) How did Caliborn and Calliope get the lollipop jujus? (Probably from Gamzee). How did Gamzee end up on Earth with the Cherubs? (Probably Aradia’s time Machine) Why is Gamzee immortal? (Probably because of Bard of Rage/clown powers) Why were Meulin and Kurloz’s actions important? (They probably weren’t) What did Echidna ask Kanaya to do the first time? (No idea) What about the second time? (Probably to knock out Karkat).

Worst of all, the very best explanation that anyone has been able to come up with for why the ending took this form is “baby’s first metafictional story.” The metafiction elements in Homestuck used to be side gags and jokes for the most part, but now they are the only way to justify the ending. - sportsracer48

While some of this was cleared up to an extent - we see several of the sprites in the Credits, for instance - you can get a general idea of why people were upset with the ending almost immediately after the comic had ended.

For someone as colossal as Homestuck, the sudden ending was severely lacking for a lot of people - and I have to admit, one of my own gripes about the ending is the lack of development on John, so I can completely agree with this.

#long post//#ardenttheories out of theory #Anonymous #homestuck ramblings

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utopianparadoxist · 7 years

Photo

Part #1: Flight of the Movie & Anime References

This section is pretty much setup for the next three essays. There’s a couple sections here that I have a fair bit to say about, but probably just as many where I’ll close out with some minor observations, or reference to someone else’s Good Post(tm).

What I think is important is noting the consistency and similarity with which Homestuck engages in meaningful reference. I just want you to have this list in mind as I flesh out the three truly impactful references I want to talk about in this series.

So here’s a short list of cases where Homestuck outright leans on other stories to structure itself, with accompanying references:

1) The Game Over Arc - Plot Structure & Dragon Ball Z

We’re starting with Dragon Ball Z because the references here are relatively simple and straightforward, and they largely set up either pretty clear structural parallels, rather than thematic ones.

The clearest of these examples is the section of the story that begins with the joke Arquius makes above. In case you don’t know, the “over 9000″ meme has its roots in this iconic, hilarious sequence from DBZ:

youtube

What’s notable is what follows. From the moment this joke happens, the very structure of Homestuck changes to following the loose structure of some of the most memorable DBZ arcs.

I’m no buff on the series, but the memories it calls up for me most strongly resemble the Namek/Freeza or Buu arcs, and expert DBZ consultant @alotofmomos (who hates me for writing this) confirms these are the arcs that most perform the particular structure Homestuck will now be mimicking.

And what does that structure consist of? A particular mix of “pacing” choices, cinematography, and sheer scale of spectacle that I find hard to source to anything but DBZ. I can’t even think of other Shonen series that mix all these elements in quite the same way, though again, I’m no expert.

Some of these elements are:

A) Drawn out, massive power-up sequences:

youtube

B) Conflicts that carry out on planetary scales, and indeed often destroy the planets hosting them.

youtube

This pretty much speaks for itself, doesn’t it? Do I really have to say some stuff to make it look like I’m doing anything other than pointing out some obvious goddamn parallels that blew my mind because they took me years to notice?

Alright, fine. I’ll say this much: I think it’s quite fitting that Homestuck would borrow from the DBZ playbook for the section of the story that illustrates the sheer mind-boggling scale of power our protagonists have reached.

There’s very few stories out there that demonstrate this sense of mortals achieving such bonkers dominion over reality through sheer force of will, and the homage certainly hammers home the idea that these kids are Gods with levels of power we’ve barely scratched the surface of.

But I don’t think there’s a big Narrative Payoff to this particular reference. Instead, I think what Homestuck takes from this is functional in terms of narrative. Because the most interesting things this narrative model adopts are structural.

C) Convenient plot-structure.

Namely, what we end up with is a bunch of characters grouped into disparate conflicts across the same larger “playing field”, separated by considerable amounts of distance--and thus, isolating them into distinct narratives.

As a natural consequence of this, the pacing slows down to an excruciatingly slowness, as we cut from conflict to conflict, each one progressing in small snippets of minutes or even seconds at a time. All of this is par for the course for Dragon Ball Z, particularly in the Namek saga.

So what this provides us with isn’t a profound, revelatory moment of thematic meaning--but instead, an effective backdrop on which to flesh out that meaning elsewhere. In fact, this very arc does that like twice with two other stories!

So let's move on from this and take a look at a couple of character arcs whose resolutions are telegraphed by way of reference.

2) Terezi as Dorothy

I don’t have too much to add to this, but it’s useful because in the eyes of much of the fandom, it’s already accepted. Check out madchen’s excellent post on the subject here.

The bottom line is: Terezi janks Jade’s shoes, and adopts the role of Dorothy in Homestuck’s symbol logic. This leads her home--to Vriska and their memories of growing up together, and ultimately to embracing her red feelings for her.

Terezi’s resolution is one of two relationships resolved in the wake of [S] Game Over. Let’s take a look at the other.

3) Jake as Buttercup

Don’t have much to say about this one either, cause I already wrote most of it. I will say I don’t think it’s an accident that the arcs to coincide here are Dirkjake’s and Vrisrezi’s, since the two relationships are in many ways direct parallels. But that’s another essay for another time.

I have received some rightful criticism on my writing on Jake in particular, and this is a good place to clarify my position, however. I do not think it’s particularly “Good” or “Healthy” for Jake to indulge his own desires at the expense of Dirk’s (or Jane’s) feelings.

My point has never been that Jake’s selfish behavior is inherently good--merely that Jake’s reasons for being in love with Dirk are his own, and not imposed to him from Dirk himself, or anyone around him.

As with all things in Homestuck, the key is for Jake to grapple with the negatives in himself and come to balance with the tension between his own wants and his relationships with others. This is true of literally everyone in Homestuck.

And there’s an easier way of saying what I am getting at. Because Homestuck literally gives us a guidebook to understanding Jake and Dirk’s relationships to each other, as parsed in Jake’s head--a guidebook that provides context to their entire relationship.

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Just as you can read Terezi as Dorothy, so too can you read Jake as Buttercup. This is the crucial distinction I seek to make. In common readings of Dirk and Jake’s relationship, Jake acquiesces to Dirk’s pushy forcing of the relationship despite Dirk’s control issues.

In this one, Dirk is a flawed but committed provider and protector, and Jake picks up on and begins internalize a belief that Dirk will always be there for him, prompting him to fall for him. This reflects the fundamental core of their attraction to each other. It does not present a solution to their communication issues. They both have to work through that and be more aware of each other’s needs.

Now, The Princess Bride is a comedy action-adventure movie, but it’s also a philosophical fairy tale. Buttercup and Westley aren’t just in love, they’re in True Love, and the driving force of the movie is how Westley’s love empowers him to do anything it takes for his beloved.

What’s more interesting is Buttercup’s relationship to that same love, and how it reflects on Jake. Buttercup has to struggle to learn how to believe in True Love, even when it seems difficult or even impossible. Along the way, Buttercup is even forced into an arranged marriage, and seemingly forsakes her feelings for Westley to avoid the consequences of being honest, a choice she then tortures herself over.

A big part of her journey is learning to truly commit to not just Westley’s love for her, but her belief in that love as something both true and powerful. Something that can transcend all odds and obstacles.

Which is. You know. Exactly what Jake does when he’s fully immersed in the power of his own faith.

Now let’s move on, and note two more movie references that the comic makes outside of the context of this DBZ-mini arc.

4) Tavros as Peter Pan

There’s not a terrible amount of depth to be drawn here, either. I think most people accept that Tavros is deliberately invoking Peter Pan in his narrative victory here, with the ghosts as his Lost Boys. I will add, however, that if Peter Pan is the role Tavros is emulating in reaching his full potential, well...

Peter Pan isn’t exactly known for being Selfless, is he? He’s a hero, for sure, but self-centeredness is pretty much his calling card as a hero. To the point that Wikipedia claims that

“In the play and book, Peter symbolizes the selfishness of childhood, and is portrayed as being forgetful and self-centered.”

More fuel for the fire as far as my writing on Tavros as inherently self-centered in his building of the Ghost Army goes. Anyway, the fundamental reference is secured, right? I’m not really looking to make a Classpect argument here, I’m just compiling interesting notes. Let’s move on.

5) Caliborn as Jigsaw

This one isn’t exactly subtle, either. I’ve already written quite a bit about how Lord English defines and dominates everything in the story of Homestuck, as have others.

Understanding Caliborn as a Yaldabaoth is one way to contextualize his power over the reality all the characters preside over, and we’ll definitely touch on that further in the next three sections I’ll be covering.

But one easy way to contextualize Lord English’s power is as...well...Jigsaw.

Like Jigsaw, Lord English builds a massive, highly controlled gauntlet that he exploits and terrorizes his victims through. The only difference is that Lord English’s dungeon is bigger than some creepy gray cellar.

It is in fact, Literally Everything that occurs within the context of the Alpha Timeline. Every homeworld that every character originates from--except for, arguably, Beforus, which is still under his sway enough to be doomed, but also presented as borderline Eden-like by comparison to Alternia.

While Yaldabaoth’s control seems very distant and abstract, Jigsaw’s is crystal clear and vicious. Everything the characters of SAW suffer is, ultimately, in the hands of the orchestrator of their misery. Their puppetmaster, so to speak.

In the same sense, pretty much every single way the characters in Homestuck suffer has Lord English at the root of it--even the thing they do to themselves and each other as a result of cultural memes.

Troll Violence, heteronormativity, quadrant normativity, and hypermasculinity--all are memetic structures that exist because Lord English himself disseminated them, in the context of Homestuck. They’re thought-traps rather than literal physical torture devices, but they’re torture tools all the same.

And you can even see Jigsaw as a symbol for Lord English’s influence, since it is, after all, one of the primary differences setting apart Bro and Dirk. Dirk has no interest in the SAW franchise at all, whereas Bro makes a point of mocking Dave with it. (thanks to @jadedresearcher for pointing this out, by the way!)

So yeah. Not only does SAW tell us a lot about the nature of Caliborn’s effect on our characters through the Alpha Timeline, it also acts as a mark for his influence. That’s...pretty much all there is to say on the matter.

For now.

That wraps up this little introductory round-up. Now I can get to talking about three of the biggest influences on Homestuck as a story: The Neverending Story (the book), Earthbound & Mother 3, and Gnostic Myth. Hope you’ll follow along with us over the next couple of weeks to find out more.

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Keep rising.

#Homestuck #The Princess Bride #The Wizard of Oz #SAW #Peter Pan #Tavros Nitram #Jake English #Terezi Pyrope #Caliborn #Lord English #Dirk Strider #Bro #Dave Strider #My MSPA Analysis

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