#wakanda forever meta
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It's been a week since I saw Wakanda Forever, and ever since, it's consumed my thinking. There are a million things I'd love to discuss about the film, but what keeps me up at night is Shuri and Namor.
Shuri had every right to gut his ass. Namor brought flooding and destruction to her home, killed her mother, all while knowing she was suffering from the death of her brother. Hell, Namor nearly killed her (by impaling her, which how did she survive that idk, anyway). And what was the worst thing that Shuri had done to him? Say no to his alliance to go to war with the surface world? Shuri wasn't the one who killed Namor's two subjects. She actually tried to save them. Yet just like T'Challa, she's forced to deal with the consequences of other people's actions, and when she stands over Namor with a blade to his neck, her internal struggle with this flashes across screen. It's a powerful sequence, but the one that captures me the most is when we hear her mother telling her to show Namor who she is. Not only is it one of many callbacks to the first film, but really, who is she? Who is Shuri? She is struggling with her identity, as grief often does to a person.
When audiences first met Shuri, she was the genius younger sister, the comic relief, who took solace in her lab. But now all this has been taken from her, and taken so suddenly. She's now front and center, now her country's most powerful figure, no longer the jokester, no longer a sister, no longer a daughter, and feels like a failure. The moments where she stands over Namor is us watching her return to herself but also become someone entirely new. She sees the destruction reverse. Sees Namor's hope. Sees their mothers and their nations. She understands that they are similar just as much as they are different. She finally realizes that ending Namor's life cannot reverse the destruction nor her pain, but sparing him is the answer to ending the cycle of it. She recognizes that even though her mother and brother are gone, she is still sister, still daughter. Death in Wakanda is a beginning.
Above all, Shuri understands she cannot think of only herself anymore. She cannot push her people to war because of her own grief and vengefulness. She becomes a leader, in granting mercy. A protector. And extends this protection by offering it to Namor and his people. This brought a bitter taste in my mouth at first, but it isn't about who's right or wrong, especially when both sides have a little right or a little wrong to them. It's about navigating the actions of their forebearers in the best way they can.
Her multifaceted character is symbolized by her panther suit--it's reminiscent of T'Challa, Kilmonger, and her past self. Now that she's burned her mourning clothes, hopefully in the next movie, we'll see her accept this role with newfound confidence and surity of its purpose. I'm also hoping that Shuri kept Namor's little baby ankle wing that she sliced off and puts it up somewhere to serve as a reminder that she bested him. Can you imagine? I can't wait to see more of her.
Then there's Namor. And dare I say it, he was justified in his feelings of wanting to kill Queen Ramonda. She was cunning and tricked him and had two of his people killed in the process. Remember the scene where he's cradling his subject's face as she dies? And she asks if he can save her and he does not answer because he knows he cannot? And then--was it Namora?--who says, with such blame dripping in her voice, that he was busy meeting with the queen during Nakia's attack. Namor is so angry, and very possibly, so ashamed (and scared?). His ultimate goal is to protect his people, and he failed. He's a god and Ramonda made him look like a fool. To him, she had to go.
Ryan Coogler said that despite Namor being about 500 years old, he wanted him to still feel somewhat childlike. And is he! He's rash. He focuses only on the immediate response without thinking of the ramifications. He seems almost charmingly innocent in his hopefulness that Shuri would want to join him. There's no doubt they wanted us to feel a romantic connection betweeen them, or perhaps just from Namor's end. I don't know who gives clearance on the music, but whoever does, they are always very intentional and unique about it, and a love song plays during That One Mesmerizing Scene. The theories that Namor is infatuated with Shuri just weaken me. She's the first person to ever see Talocan. The bracelet. The mural. Him acknowdging her power. Him waiting for her to beckon him. I. have. folded. No one look at me.
I really hope the MCU explores their relationship. And though I'm sure it would never be a romantic one, that does not make it any less intriguing. Ryan is phenomenal with his villains. Just like Kilmonger challenged T'Challa not just with war, but challenged his core beliefs, Namor did the same with Shuri. The only difference now is that Namor is still alive, and this sets us up for a delicious exploration of a complex relationship between two leaders who have similar wants but conflicting perspectives.
Man. I love them. MCU, please let us see more of them. And if we do, please. Be careful with them.
#and the fact that this is between a black woman and brown man like PLEASE#seeing black women in multilayered relationships is something I did not know I starved for until now#shuri#namor#wakanda forever#shuri x namor#anyway let me talk next about how killing queen ramonda was a thematic mistake!#wakanda forever spoilers#black panther#black panther spoilers#wakanda forever meta
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Why Namor x Shuri makes sense in terms of story structure
So if we go off context, Nashuri was already planned by the writers, as seen in interviews and the og script. Which isn't surprising because viewers picked up on their chemistry and romantic undertones in the movie already. The only reason this was changed is because they wanted to focus on the theme of grief and dealing with loss. Which has been the main theme for phase 4 in general since we're moving on to new heroes.
Also not sure if people are aware of this but the choice to kill Ramonda was more or less a last minute decision by Ryan. Angela only agreed to it after Ryan brought up how often it is for characters to come back.
So this could mean Ramonda's coming back to life or will continue to make appearances. If she does come back to life this more or less weakens the "but he killed her mom!" Argument.
Now let's talk about Shuri's story and Namor's role in it. Because at the end of the day this is Shuri's story.
Shuri's story in WF is her journey from childhood to adulthood. Tenoch has said this is his favorite thing about her story.
In the beginning she is a girl by the end she is a woman.
The particular kind of story structure Ryan used is called "The Heroine's Journey" a popular method to use in storytelling with female leads.
You'll find similar stories following this method in movies like "Star Wars, Labyrinth, The Hunger Games, The Wizard of Oz etc."
"The Heroine's Journey" is a female version of "The Hero's Journey" which is used for male leads. T'Challa actually goes through his hero's journey during "Civil War" and "BP" so im not suprised Ryan used the female version for his sister.
If you look at the structure of the heroine's journey Shuri pretty much hits all of these.
Distancing herself from her mother, venturing out of Wakanda (both in America and in Talokan) aka leaving the nest, and having her time to shine.
Both the hero and heroine's journies are a method to mature your lead in a way that makes sense and is relatable since hey, we all gotta grow up some times.
Also a subtle thing Ryan incorporated was how both Ramonda and Okoye treat Shuri like she's a child while Namor treats her like an adult, because she is.
Now something that is not always included but is common in both, is the hero or heroine's being presented with sexual incitement, at times for the first time. This signifies them coming into sexual maturity which is why you won't see it in every story or may just get subtle hits of it.
Now if it wasn't obvious Namor is ment to be Shuri's expirence with sexual enticement. Possibly her first encounter since we don't know her history.
And this isn't a "maybe" situation he literally just is. Firstly, this role usually is presented when the hero leaves the nest, not to mention Namor takes up every single trope of this role.
-Invades the hero's space (hut scene)
-whispers to them (again hut scene)
-touches or caresses them (First holding her hand then putting his mother's bracelet on her)
-shows them something new and exciting (Talokan)
-Is usually older then the hero (20s vs 500)
-Often times wears clothing that is either tight fitted or very little clothing (bro is literally walking around in nothing but jewelry and booty shorts)
Secondly, sometimes you'll straight up get subtle hints and/or introductions of sex it's self.
-In Star Wars there's a scene where Leia has to sit on Han's lap and the ship starts bouncing up and down...
-Again, in Star Wars Kylo Ren wipes his mouth which we see has water on it after meeting with Rey through the force...
-With Shuri in Namor, their fight has a weird amount of grappling and holding, not to mention the back scratching...
Namor treats and speaks to Shuri like she's a grown woman. He doesn't handle her with kid gloves like everyone else, he respects her as an adult who can make her own decisions.
In a dark sense even when it comes to either raging war after Ramonda's death or the alliance. He leaves it up to her to decide.
Also Riri, just isn't this to Shuri. This is not to say people can't ship it cause you can ship whatever you want, their all fictional. But Shuri refers to Riri as "a kid", "a child" or "a girl" depending on what translations you watch. This is to show the audience that Shuri does not view Riri as an adult. They're confirmed to have a sisterly bond. Shuri lost a sibling and gained a sibling.
But back to Namor, he also is noticeably kinder to her then he is to literally anyone else in the movie besides his people. Not to mention it's canon that he finds her charming and interesting. He also likes her smile.
It's confirmed by Ryan that he never wanted to kill her even during their fight which some fans noticed, he never tries to kill her even when he has an obvious chance.
And lastly, he sees Shuri as an equal by the end of the movie, showing he has respect for her as a protector of her nation and possibly even views her as a god now but we have to wait and see on that one.
As quoted by Ryan, Namor is ment to be a Peter Pan archetype and when you think about it he really is. He's black and white way of thinking is very childish, he's incredible stubborn, he's arrogant and cocky, yet at the same time, curious and charming. Like Peter he's a father to his people (he literally refers to them as his children) and their sole protector.
There's innocence to his character that's very compelling and shows how young he is in mind.
-he collects (maybe steals, very Killmonger of him) Mayan artifacts from the surface since he never got to see Ancient Maya.
-speaking of collecting things, he even collects random surface world stuff. He has 2 gramophones in his hut, which he most likely got from a ship back in the day.
-he's suprised and charmed by Shuri's kindness. Which makes session since she's the first surface person he's ever spent time with.
-and hey, he got his love of drawing from his mama.
Now what does all this mean for Namor and Shuri in the future? Well for one you got a good amount of back up for them no longer being enemies.
1. Shuri's heroine's journey is over now.
2. Namor was the one who forced her into womanhood.
3. We concluded the story at her finalizing her grief
4. It's canon that Namor was humbled by Shuri after their fight.
5. Wakanda and Talokan will be working with each other.
6. Namor may play a mentor like role with Shuri
7. Dispite many romance scenes being removed they still chose to keep enough hints for people to pick up on.
8. Their fight is described as "intimate" by both writers.
9. Namor and Shuri are described as "two sides of the same coin" and "twin flames" (these are the same descriptions that were used for Rey and Ben Solo in Star Wars)
Why does them having a possible relationship make sense? Well the most basic answer? They're the only two people that can understand what the other is going through.
Their both protectors of great nations that are centered around a resource unique to their land and have a culture and ancestry untouched by colonization. They both know grief of losing people they love. (Namor's mother and his two handmaids, Shuri's brother and mother) Their both EXTREMELY intelligent. (Namor build a vibranium sun underwater and I don't remember where I read it but he learned English in a week.) They both find each other interesting. They both see each other as equals. They both have alot of growing to do.
So will they have some kind of relationship? Most likely. Will it be romantic or platonic? Who knows. But we know they won't be enemies so we have to wait and see.
#namor#shuri#shuri udaku#namor meta#shuri meta#wakanda forever meta#wakanda forever#black panther wakanda forever#black panther#nashuri#namuri#story analysis#heroine's journey
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random wakanda forever brainrot post but here goes
namor saying that “only the most broken people can be great leaders” is a saying I understand a lot better now as an adult. i used to hate it as a kid, and hated it even more as a teenager.
why should anyone suffer in order to be a capable leader? the answer is pretty stupidly simple.
it’s not just that suffering makes them more resilient, but that they gain the ability to empathise with perspectives no one would be able to unless they go through it themselves. it allows them to fully and viscerally understand and consider the costs of the actions they are going to take or endorse, and then considering the gravity of it all, make those decisions.
and it shouldn't be this way, but it is, and it is true - only the most broken people can be great leaders.
#and i kinda hate that it took me so long to get here but hey#maybe i needed to go through my own suffering to get here#there are some people whose tribulations forge bitterness into them#like killmonger#and then there are people like namor and tchalla and shuri and ramonda#who forge themselves into cautious kind and noble leaders despite it all#wakanda forever#wakanda forever meta#black panther 2#erik killmonger#namor#kukulkán#shuri#tchalla#queen ramonda#king tchalla
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the rage of princess shuri
very few character arcs have been as substantive and transformative as the arc given to shuri in wakanda forever. and what makes it so powerful is her undeniable rage.
shuri angry. at herself, at the ancestors, at the world. and there’s so much range in her anger. it’s cold and dismissive to her mother’s faith in the spiritual. it’s painful and untethering to herself and her beliefs. it’s hot and all consuming towards namor and the harm he causes.
and then with how mythical and fairytale-esque wakanda forever is in general. shuri plays with the princess archetype and instead almost becomes a vengeful goddess. eternal war was one death away. it just happens that the person she longed to kill was her mirror image.
a black heroine having the space to transform, rebirth by fire and fury, was an experience. i don’t really know how to put it into words.
“Is my mother’s life not worth eternal war?”
that might be one of the most heartbreaking, and relatable lines in the mcu. grief and anger crystallised into one question.
#shuri#so tempted to write out a full ass analysis of shuri’s arc because i am obsessed#mcu shuri#wakanda forever spoilers#wakanda forever#black panther#shuri x namor#mcu#meta#marvel meta#marvel#nashuri
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you don’t get it. you don’t get it. i will always think about how shuri all but ran to the ancestral plane, despite not believing in it. how, despite her misgivings, it was a chance to see her mother or brother again;
and i will always think about how she met killmonger instead: someone she deemed an enemy and a threat to those she loved and stood for. always separate and far away, always just a warning—look, this is the wrong path. you should never take it.
and how killmonger convinced her that they were the same. you chose me.
i will always think about shuri after, waking up on that cold metal slab, now hollow in a way no one else will ever be able to comprehend;
how, as she stood up, her loss finally seemed real to her, because even in a place where her wishes to see her family could have been granted, they weren’t. they didn’t come. to her, they chose not to, and so a man like killmonger guided her into her first breaths as the Black Panther instead.
i will always think about how broken by grief she sounded, and angry, and most of all, above all, so utterly alone:
“I saw no one Nakia! I SAW NO ONE! Why did they not show up? Why did they abandon me?”
#the grief in this movie is just so#WELL DONE#black panther#black panther wakanda forever#shuri#erik killmonger#Nakia#black panther wakanda forever spoilers#queen ramonda#marvel meta#mcu phase 4#grief#t’challa#n’jadaka#ramblings
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Just sayin'
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Guys I will defend NAMOR until death do me part. Yes he killed the queen of wakanda. He fucking drowned her and probably a lot of other fictional people too. But am I the only one reading into the theme that imperialism pits marginalized groups of people against each other.  and by doing that it can cause drastic affects in marginalized communities that might make us lose sight of the systems in place that’s function is to harm us. And by succumbing to vengeance we only cause more damage to ourselves.
I would even personally understand if Shuri killed Namor but just imagine the effect It would’ve had on his people. If shuri had killed Namor I would still think the best option is for the people of Atlantis to forgive her and understand what she was going through.  but honestly how could you ask that of them 2 when all they see is someone who killed their Protector just like namor did to shuri killing her mom. If they don’t want perpetual war at some point somebody is gonna have to forgive somebody else and it’s better if it’d be earlier than later so less damage is caused.
It’s either forgiveness or damnation on both empires and never actually dealing with any of the problems that got them they’re just worsening them.
Neither of them are the center of the problem at the end of the day in the story. The problem is Those who want to cause Instability with vibranium. The battle between their armies is just causing both fictional empires unnecessary harm. They Need to stop their war and if they really want to reduce these kinds of tragedy. They need to focus their strength on those who threaten their empire/communities and who oppress people across the marvel Cinematic universe. if they want to reduce harm they need to kiss and make up.  They need to fight together and not against each other anymore.
That’s a strong fucking message about how we all need to stop falling for scapegoats. And how we all need to become more critical of our justice system for Blinding us by seeking vengeance instead of healing The wounds it has caused.  how we need to become more critical of just actively causing our communities more harm instead of trying to actually reduce the harm. By radically changing systems that keep people oppressed. and that’s how I’m choosing to connect to the story the protagonist, antagonist, and team that worked on Wakanda forever presented us. 
#transformative justice#black panther spoilers#bpwf spoilers#wakanda forever spoilers#black panther wakanda forever#black panther#black panther 2#wakanda forever#bpwf#namor#shuri#namor the sub mariner#namor x m'baku#shuri x namor#namor x shuri#nam'baku#meta#marvel
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Namor & Talokan
So these are my thoughts upon watching Black Panther: Wakanda Forever twice now.
I loved Namor. I truly feel they captured the characterization so well in so many ways and it’s amazing how good of a job they did in this movie, how Tenoch owns that role, how perfect everything is. This is what it means to adapt a character, changing things but keeping the essence of the character and tbh the changes were such a great choice because in the end it served to enhance the character and bring him to new audiences and fans to enjoy and he is still NAMOR. So many people complaining about how bad it is they stripped Namor of everything obviously think that Namor begins and ends with Atlantis and know nothing of his character.
The overarching theme of Mothers, and their children, Namor & Fen, Shuri & Ramonda, play a central role amidst all the grief of the past/losing someone. Colonization is the enemy, not Namor who was just Wakanda’s antagonist.
Talokan mirrors Wakanda but asks the question: What if Colonization had won, what happens to the survivors who escaped? Wakanda never had to deal with the Invasion of their homeland, while Talokan did.
In the comics Namor is often the “Voice of Reason” when placed within a group dynamic, such as the Illuminati, it’s Namor who points out their plans are stupid or finds the most straightforward path to his goals, he is a very honest character and doesn’t hold back his words/thoughts. So it makes sense that just as Coogler holds up Talokan to mirror Wakanda so he would hold Namor up as a mirror to Shuri and gives her the option that others in Wakanda could not, to take on the world and give into those feelings of Rage. Ramonda (and by extension Wakanda) wants Shuri to grieve properly in a healthy and begin to move on with her life, which Shuri cannot do because in part she blames herself for not being able to save T’Challa. Survivors guilt is strong within her even though she really couldn’t do anything but that’s how guilt works. Which plays off really well because Coogler wasn’t afraid to let Namor be exactly like his comic counterpart and follow through on his word/promises even if that meant he was going to do things no Morally White/Good aka Hero character would do, since Namor is a Morally Grey character he has the space to make and follow through on choices he finds benefits himself and his people.
Spoilers beneath the cut, so this is your warning.
While Namor is much older and had time to rule over his people and deal with the grief of losing his mother for hundreds of years he chose Rage & Vengeance as his crutch to get through losing her. He focuses his anger on the world. He isn’t wrong, the Spanish Colonizers are the root cause for all the evil done to him and his people and by extension the surface world. Namor is a Hero to his people and he is their Protector. Which means he will be viewed as an enemy of the surface world. Namor was superhero comics first anti-hero and Tenoch!Namor is the same.
As a general overview before I get into details, Namor’s arc is very complete. His goal was an alliance with Wakanda, he makes it clear the first time he comes to ask them for help because Namor does not ask for help, not in the comics, not unless he trusts that person or is willing to trust that person. Namor + Trust is a very important trait. Listen if you think Namor couldn’t find the scientist and kill Riri where she stood on his own than you don’t know how capable Namor is. He and his people are not primitive/lacking of skills or smarts, he doesn’t need Wakanda’s help but he recognizes it would be smarter in the long run to have an ally that would empathize with him and his people. He chooses Wakanda because its the Nation his mother told him about, and he recognizes that they and Talokan are both very similar. Namora and Attuma were literally using a hunting trick for Riri, have someone else draw her out into the open before taking them down. Why else would they have been waiting close enough to take Riri if Namor had asked the Wakandans to bring her to him? If Namor had truly trusted them to find AND bring Riri to him he would have waited instead he had a back up plan which were Attuma and Namora. Namor’s trust of the surface, even Wakanda only goes so far.
Let me get into details. You don’t know how much it’s killing me to not have pics to go along with my text but I will have to wait till the movie is out on dvd to be able to gif/screencap everything.
I’m starting off with character design first:
Wings.
His wings are AMAZING. There was no easy Superman gliding and swooping here! His air walking was astounding, at times it felt like he had to really push himself to get up to a certain height level like a bird putting more effort into its wings getting off the ground vs catching a air current. He was so agile and FAST, turning on a whim and aware of his surroundings, honestly some parts felt like he was just swimming or dancing through the air, the way he twists his body/hips to change positions. I am so happy they included the wings because it’s so important to his character.
His wings flap rapidly like a hummingbird, and it’s always been one of my personal headcanons that’s how Namor’s wings move and it was really cool to see! There’s a sound you hear when his wings move, like a rattlesnake/buzzing, I think its because he is called K’uk’ulkan, Feather Serpent God, so that rattlesnake buzzing is a nod to the serpent aspect of that.
Edit: AresisKander on Twitter added this comment after reading this post and I am including their comment:
About the sound of the wings or when he flies, I think the reference is to the ayoyotes or chachayotes many people in Mexico still use to do/reenact traditional dancing
A photo of Ayoyotes.
/End Edit.
I did some searching online today to try and figure out what bird/feather pattern they modeled Namor’s wings off of because in the movie it’s not pure white wings and had some light patterns of grey/light brown with the white. I think its modeled after the Osprey (Pandion Haliaetus).
The parts I’ve highlight here are what stood out to me the most in the movie, the tops of his wings had the same white feathery look and his lower feathers had that pattern. The bird makes sense for Namor as the Osprey is found near rivers/bodies of water and is a fish eating bird of prey, with excellent eyesight to see underwater to hunt their fish. They are excellent divers too.
Tenoch’s ears were so cute, and while Namor has pointed ears, the rest of his people do not, so some people like Namora, use jewelry to give themselves the pointed ears like Namor, others use jewelry on the outside of their ear to mimic the pointed ear shape.
GILLS.
THE TALOKANIL (or is it Talokaneil?) HAVE GILLS. I AM SO HAPPY THEY KEPT THAT FROM THE COMICS!!! The Gills have always set Marvel’s Atlanteans apart from DC, and even Namor has gills in the comics even though artists forget to draw it but it was an important plot point in a couple of comics. Seeing their water masks covered not just their mouth/nose but also the gills on their necks was so cool. I can’t wait until high res stills come out so I can show you all how cool their costumes were! the gill masks were soooo pretty!!! There is just so much detail on their look/costumes/mayan influences that I can’t do it justice with words but it was beautiful, Namora had a few outfit changes through the movie which I loved.
Speaking of Namora, she was not at all like her comic counterpart and like I guessed before she is basically a mix of Namora and Andromeda. It makes sense why they wouldn’t use the character Andormeda since she is Attuma’s daughter in the comics so they wouldn’t have time to explain why his daughter is the same age as him etc. since comic atlanteans are long lived and look the same ageish. Andromeda operates as Namor’s right hand woman, the captain of his guards/army, a highly respected close friend and long time ally who would always fight beside Namor and offer advice.
Namora is smart, loyal, and such a badass in the movie. Mabel played her beautifully and I adored her. Anyways I loved this interpretation of Namora and I hope we get to see more of her and Attuma. Attuma’s character does not get alot of lines, we have no clue to his motivations and if he hates Namor or not like in the comics, in the comics they were enemies, but the recent King in Black: Namor tells the story of Attuma’s origin and friendship with Namor before it all went bad.
Namora, Attuma, and Namor all wear different outfits throughout the movie. The character designs were brilliant, and the costumes were gorgeous, so I really hope they win an award for that again.
It also feels like they each have an “Avatar” of sorts. Namor is the Feathered Serpent, Attuma is a Shark, and Namora is a Lion Fish, remember the Lion Fish is a deadly venomous creature so those spines Namora wears are a warning threat to her enemies.
The Plot
I will be focused on the Namor/Talokan plot mainly.
The first scene we get with Namor is literally ripped from the pages of Marvel Comics (1939) #1. In the comic, two divers go exploring a ship and Namor darts by too fast for them. Later Namor cuts the lines of one diver killing him, then goes after the second diver.
In the movie the divers are sent to check on a drill in the ocean, it had struck vibranium, which the Americans were after since they had a Vibranium detection machine. Namor swims by too fast for them to see, they are too focused on their find, however one diver’s life support signal stops, when the scientist lady on the ship asks the second diver to turn around to check on her partner and see if he was ok, she turns only to find cut life support lines. Namor comes for her next. I want to say very quickly that while Vibranium was included in the backstory/plot of the movie it also has it’s roots in the comics but only since the 90s:
Golden age - two divers on an exploratory mission - Marvel Comics (1939) #1
Silver age - expanded: two divers were sent there because the captain of the ship was Captain Leonard McKenzie on his return to the Antarctic waters after decades to search for Fen. The Sub-Mariner (1968) #44
Modern Age - The original cause of two ships coming to Antarctica is because the first one (The Endurance) was on a mission to find Vibranium, while the second one {The Oracle, Namor’s father’s ship) was on a mission to find The Endurance. Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #52
So as you can see they just cut off the Leonard part since Fen’s origins have changed as well, and they kept the scene from the first comic and their motivation is Vibranium. There was a very Depths!Namor vibe to the character which I adored because Sub-Mariner: The Depths is such a good comic.
Meanwhile above there is a siren song luring the crew to their deaths in the sea. I loved the Sirens, they are a highlight of the Talokanil. The ship is now under attack by the Talokanil, and the scientist lady escapes into a helicopter. Attuma and Namora arrivals are great! The Talokanil are efficient at their tasks.
Namora watches as the helicopter goes higher into the sky but doesn’t do anything because she knows Namor will stop them. The first scene showing Namor’s full strength is amazing, it cannot be understated how Namor is a Power in the comics, he is literally called a one man navy. Namor is the guy the other characters call in when they need the Big Guns. He wrecks that helicopter and the scene ends with a visual of Namor hover over the sea in the dark, it really reminds me of this visual.
Marvel Fanfare (1982) #16
So as you see Namor has been called Devil, Sea Devil, Sea Demon in the comics which makes the Spanish Priest’s words to a young Namor really hit home because humans have always viewed him as something not human, evil, and otherworldly even though they themselves are not good people.
The next time we see Namor he is rising out of the water in Wakanda to speak with Ramonda and Shuri, he carries with him a shell, a conch shell, which in can be symbolic of a declaration of war or something else depending on the context as written here and here by Aztec Empire on twitter. The soundtrack to Namor’s arrival is freaking awesome, and Namor’s first show of pure astonishment/wonder at Wakanda is so endearing. Alot of people complained about this online saying he wouldn’t do that, but the truth is Namor does know how to smile, he loves the wonder and beauty of Nature, he isn’t a scowling angry fish man all the time. Tenoch’s micro expressions are amazing, he goes from wonder to being a Threat in the space of seconds. What I really like is how he captured Namor’s humor which is not an easy thing to do since in the comics Namor has a very dry gallows humor that makes people around him think its very serious but he’s actually telling the joke more to himself than for the benefit of others. Namor says “- I took care of it” meaning he totally killed all those people but he’s acting like it was nothing more than a small chore or something. lol. Also there is something else I wanted to point out about the beginning of this scene, Ramonda and Shuri are alerted by elephants who sensed Namor and ran, in the comics when Namor is running amok in New York for the first time he releases several wild creature from the zoo, which also had elephants. Now I don’t know if that was in reference to that scene in Marvel Mystery Comics (1939) #8 but it did remind me of it.
And as stated earlier, Namor was willing to extend his trust but still Attuma and Namora followed Shuri and Okoye in the later scenes.
MCU!Attuma is strong and a capable warrior, I greatly enjoyed him baiting Okoye on the bridge into a fight. The way he looks at Riri (whom Namora told him to kill) and decides she isn’t going anywhere so he might as well have a fight for fun with Okoye was Peak Character for him. Namora is annoyed and snaps at him to stop playing around. I love their dynamic with Attuma playing the Strong Muscle character and Namora though tiny was clearly in charge. Both of them have consistent characterizations, both are very loyal to Talokan and they get stuff done. Attuma is 100% ready to kill Riri and so is Namora. They are looking out for the future of their people. BUT when Shuri asks them to take them to Talokan alive they confer with each other, they treat Shuri like the royalty she is and they take her wish seriously since they also know Namor wants an alliance with Wakanda. If Namor had ordered them to kill the scientist at all costs, I don’t doubt they would have been done there on the bridge.
When Shuri and Riri are in Talokan, Shuri is treated as according to her social status, a Princess, with all the respect given to her from one Nation to another which really stood out to me. They give her traditional clothing, and they aren’t unknind, they care for Riri and give her food while Shuri goes to speak with Namor. I’m just pointing out that Coogler isn’t depicting the Talokanil as some hostile people who are unreasonable in wanting to kill Riri, they are only hostile when the safety of their people is in question.
The biggest change I would say character wise in regards of the transition from the Atlanteans to the Talokanil is that the Atlanteans actively hated and looked down on Namor for being half human/atlantean, its a major source of isolation for Namor. Namor’s character is rooted in his biracialness, is rooted in being a man of two worlds without fitting into either world and struggling with his two people. Changes seem to have taken away that biracial aspect in the form of two different races of human/atlantean since it seems Namor is a full Mayan/Talokan now however it doesn’t mean it’s lost, Namor is never a part of the Talokanil proper, he is respect and revered yes but also set apart in isolation because of his slowed aging meaning he would outlive all of his people, and that he is seen as their deity. When Shuri meets Namor he is open and honest with her. He RESPECTS her in a way the Elders of her people didn’t, because they saw her as a child. He respects her because she is a Princess and because Namor respects women. I know there is alot of bad Fanon out there regarding Namor’s treatment of women in the comics but as a person who has read all of his comics, so much of it comes down to out of context weird fanon and also some moments of really bad writing however Comic!Namor was raised by his single mother Fen and has great respect for women, so of course Namor would respect Shuri and treat her in accordance with her social stature.
I’ve already begun to see NamorShuri shipping discourse so let be preface this by saying I literally do not care. I don’t care what people ship. However this meta is my, a comic fan’s, thoughts on Namor’s character and the rest of the movie, and I would appreciate it if people don’t use my words out of context nor they drag me into any shipping wars. Once one of my other metas was used out of context to promote racism and I don’t appreciate that. Also I personally believe that shipping is not the end of all things. I believe shipping is a fun addition to the source BUT it’s NOT the end all reason behind character’s actions. So people saying Namor was totally hitting on Shuri, or flirting with her, or whatever, that’s fun fanon for you but I personally do not see it that way.
Namor is charismatic in the comics and Tenoch!Namor captures Namor’s charisma, anger, sorrow, and light heartedness but most of all he captures Namor’s loneliness. When Namor opens up to Shuri and tells her the story of his people, of his mother, he is trying to find a connection, some empathy, a friend.
Princess Fen and her people.
They don’t say Fen is royalty or some high ranking woman in their Nation, however they don’t not say that either. Until we get more information about her then I will only speak on what I saw. Fen and her people are suffering from smallpox brought over by the Spanish Invaders, her people are dying, and she is pregnant. We see Fen place a stone, a funeral rite, into the mouth of a dead man who was placed in a dug grave, he had already passed. The unnamed man died of smallpox, and I personally believe this could have been Namor’s father but also it simply could have been a person who was her family/friend/she had some connection to since we aren’t exactly sure who he was. In the comics Fen is the most beautiful Atlantean ever, and I love the actress they chose for Fen, Maria’s beauty takes my breath away to be honest. In the comics Fen meets Namor’s father after she was sent to spy on the Americans and she falls in love with him. She is strong, smart, and fierce princess of her people. I have very strong feelings about Fen as she is one of my favorite characters.
The Shaman creates the potion/serum they drink to turn into water breathers/Talokanil, however Fen hesitates because her concern is her child. The Shaman promises her that this will save her child and her and then swears that her son will be their new king since he will be the first born of their new people. This new backstory for Namor fits the tone of the movie. I loved both Fen and the Shaman, their actors were so good.
Fen being a central character in Namor’s life is so important and I’m really glad that the movie didn’t skip over that. Fen is a guiding force, the reason why Namor is the way he is in the comics, her love and protection, even her naming him “Namor” which in the comics/atlantean it means “Avenging Son” all shaped Namor into the character he is. Fen and Namor are so important to me.
Namor speaks about how he grew up slowly and his mother aged normally, and how for her death she wanted to be buried in her homeland on the surface. Namor carries out his mother’s wishes. Fen in the comics is also buried in her homeland in the antarctic waters of her youth.
Now. This scene. The Child without Love. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I have not been able to stop thinking about this since.
Namor is the AVENGING SON, he gets his identity from his mother. When I learned she wouldn’t be naming him that I was honestly very upset because its so central to who Namor is, but then I saw the adapted scene and I feel it works in this context. In the comics his name is a warning to the surface world/white people who hurt his people in the original comics. In the movie the name was bestowed upon him by a Spanish Priest who calls him a devil after Namor saw their evil and punished them for it. Namor wears his name as a promise to his people and a threat to his enemies,“My enemies call me Namor”.
Honestly the burial of Fen was so sad, Namor even places a stone in her mouth as well. She missed her home and wanted to be returned there. This really speaks to me about immigration and displacement, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard my own family members, the older ones, who don’t live in the homeland anymore talk about how they must be buried there. I think its something that only people who leave their homeland (not out of choice but a need for a place that will be better for lives because their home isn’t safe or they have better opportunities in foreign land) can really understand that no matter how far away they are, the need to return there, be buried there for the rest of time is a such a human need. The themes of immigration/displacement/colonization is prevalent throughout their story.
In the comics Namor’s first motivation is to wage war against the surface (white) people who hurt his people and he does cause a ruckus but then he faces the true Evil of Humanity when he finds out about the Nazis, he fights alongside the humans to stop them in WWll because he knew that they would come after his people next.
In the movie, the Evil of Humanity is the Spanish Colonizers. There is no romanticized version of this, there is no Spanish colonizer myth of them being benevolent people bringing advancement to the Natives. They are shown in their full evil glory as colonizers who hurt, killed, and destroyed Nations of Native people. This is the first time Namor sees humans, and its the worst they have to show.
When Nakia is searching for Namor/a way to find Shuri and Riri, she speaks to an old woman who tells her where Namor was sighted, and how he returns, and those who go after him with ill in their hearts do not return. So it means Namor is standing on a beach, returning over the years, because there is only one thing that would bring him to the surface world, his mother’s grave. Namor was visiting Fen’s grave in her ancestral lands.
The Sub-Mariner (1968) #17
Namor’s core character is that he is a hero to his people, and their protector, which the movie displayed so accurately. After the story of his people’s origins, Namor takes Shuri on a tour of his capital city. Another time one of his jokes comes into play, he is telling her all the ways her body would die under the deep water, and then goes “We have suits!” he neglects to mention its the SAME suits that he had taken from the scientists he had killed in the beginning of the movie! lmao. I love him. I really love this character even more now even though I’ve been such a huge fan of Namor for years.
Talokan’s Capital City is so pretty. I can’t wait to zoom in on all the details.
I honestly wish I could get my hands on that 400 page Talokan design book of it’s history/lore. I wish I had better pictures of the stone ring in which Namor does the Rising Sun hand gesture to activate the water currents that take them from the cave to the capital city. It’s clear the Talokans have advanced science/machines which they use all the time, and how they harrassed the power of undersea vibrainum like the Wakandans. Namor even says “I brought my people the sun”. I know there is like 30 minutes of cut footage so I will be waiting for that to come out in an extra dvd feature soon I hope.
¡Líik’ik Talokan!
The term means “Rise Talokan” or “Talokan Rises” the Mesoamerican symbol is the hand symbol connected to the sun (source & source) Namor and the Talokanil use it in greeting to each other.
The Mesoamerican worldbuilding of Talokan is more than I ever hoped for. One of my main ongoing complaints of Namor’s world in the comics is that Marvel is more interesting in destroying it than building it up so it’s just really great to see that Coogler and team had Mesoamerican experts and a language teacher (who played the Shaman) to make sure everything is the best it can be. I know this is a fantasy take of Mesoamerica but I feel they really respected the source material, and Namor’s transformation from Prince/King of Atlantis to K’uk’ulkan is a wonderful way to bring about the comic fantasy coding of native (atlantean) people to actual native mesoamerican people representation.
After their tour Namor gives Shuri his mother’s bracelet. The bracelet is made with fibers of the blue vibranium plant that the Shaman gave to Fen and her people. I know people are saying “it’s romantic, he gave her his mom’s bracelet” but like, if y’all could just take off those shipping glasses for one second to understand not everything has a romantic intention behind it. Imo Namor gives it to her as a gift, a sign of trust, everything he’s done so far has been to extend his hand in trust to what he hopes will be allies to his people. That has been his motivation, that’s what compels him to go to Wakanda, he is seeking an ally, and why not the Princess who has a chip on her shoulder, who wants to burn the world as he does?
While Namor is gone, answering Queen Ramonda’s summons/falling for her distraction tactic, Shuri and Riri escape with Nakia and in the process one of Namor’s people, a young woman, is killed. Namor and Ramonda’s confrontation is tense, and again he carries the shell, remember it’s significance of a object that represents war or other intentions.
Until now Namor had been trying to reach Shuri and get her to see things from his POV about why the scientist should die, but he makes it clear to Ramonda that he will kill Shuri along with Riri if it ensures his people will be safe. That is a character who all throughout the movie has made his goals very clear and then the rest of his character follows through on his threats/promises.
When Namor comes back to Talokan he finds that the entire ruse had been a betrayal, a trick, to get him to leave and in the process it costs him the life of one of his people. If there was one thing in the comics that was always sure to set Namor off was one of his people dying, and it’s no different in the movie. He gathers his people to make a speech about how his hopes was for naught.
The attack on Wakanda was Namor’s retaliation for the murder of one of his people.
In the comics the first time Namor attacks Wakanda, he was possessed by the Phoenix Force and not in control of his mind/actions. However there is a Namor and Shuri plot where Shuri sends her warriors to slaughter Atlanteans because of the Phoenix Namor attack, and then he sends the Black Order to Wakanda. Shuri in the comics does have innocent Atlanteans killed and Namor retaliates. Again they adapted stuff for the movie, and it plays out differently but I just thought to share that to showcase how different things were done. You can read Namor and Shuri’s interactions (they don’t have alot in the comics) in my Black Panther (T’Challa) & The Sub-Mariner thread here.
Edit:
I forgot to add another scene that was Comic to Movie:
Black Panther (2009) #1 - there is a scene in the movie that is exactly like this, where they fly above and comment on how fast Namor is in the water.
/End Edit
The action scenes, every time Namor is flying around fighting and breaking stuff. Once again they show that Namor is A THREAT, and he will follow through on it. And again, the Sirens are so pretty, I love them. One thing I really found interesting is how we see Namor’s moral code even in battle, even after Ramonda, he knows he could crush them but instead he gives them time to grieve. Some people might go “why did he give them a week, etc.” but like, it makes sense for his character, he isn’t a murderer because he likes killing, everything he does is in accordance to his moral code and no one elses, honor is a huge thing with Namor in the comics too. Not to mention Namor’s over all goal throughout the movie, he wants Wakanda on his side, he will do what he can to get that. He points at Shuri and says “You are queen now.” He puts the heavy burden of caring for an entire nation on her shoulders, now she will finally be forced to either step up or let it crush her. Namor is pressure that presses Shuri’s character into change, either she will crack or become a diamond.
Good characters are not stationary, good characters grow and change.
The final three scenes I want to talk about:
The big Wakanda vs Atlantis fight takes place on the Sea Leopard, now this could just be a fun name they gave the ship but it could also be a deep dive reference into a Namor comic character, a villain called Sea Leopard.
Okoye vs Attuma fight again and I loved it. Namora was such a badass!!!! I didn’t mention the water bombs the Talokanil use but its so freaking cool, they use it all throughout the movie and they also use Whales to launch their people out of the water with their tails, or the people ride them. I just love all the worldbuilding of Talokan. I know I haven’t talked about other parts of the movie so far, but my favorite characters are M’Baku, Okoye, and Nakia. I enjoyed every moment M’Baku was on screen!!!
Namor vs Shuri, the big fight, Shuri has finally taken the mantle of the Black Panther, and this action scene was so freaking good. Shuri’s plan to use Namor’s weaknesses against him gains her the upper hand and to be honest all those whiney fanbois crying “but SHE is a girl and SHE can’t fight and beat Namor!!!!” need to shut up because they are WRONG. They aren’t jobbing Namor, they aren’t writing him out of character, these weaknesses are the same weaknesses Namor has in the comics!
Namor’s main weaknesses are: Pollution/Poisons, Being dried out/overheated, his wings being hurt, and some forms of mind control/amnesia.
The fight was more than fair imo and Namor isn’t flawless, he has weakness that were used against him. Honestly I would have been mad if he somehow was unaffected. ALSO I LITERALLY FREAKED OUT WHEN I SAW “IMPERIUS REX” ON SCREEN. lol, my arms were flailing for real.
Shuri weapon is against Namor’s throat and she has the power to avenge her mother, to kill Namor, to take that step further into violence and vengance, to burn the world and move further away from healing and dealing with her greif.
“When my mother died, the last person who truely knew me died with her” Shuri’s loss drove her to become the Black Panther.
Namor’s mother dies, and the last person who truely loved/knew him for him, for being him, not a protector, not a leader, that love dies too.
Ramonda’s words “Show Him Who You Are!” is echoed to Shuri, it’s the same words Ramonda yells at T’Challa in Black Panther, when he fights M’Baku at Warrior’s fall. This is Shuri’s defining moment, her path forks and she has to choose mercy and moving on, dealing with her grief or accepting vengence to forever take a place in her heart. Shuri demands Namor yields, and Namor yields, he got what he wanted, Wakanda’s alliance.
When Namora confronts Namor about him yielding, he even says as much, that what he hoped to achieve he got, and now Wakanda would turn to them when it was time (for them to face the surface world/colonizers)
The action scenes in the movie are amazing, I could watch it a hundred times, the final confrontation between them ends in peace between their peoples.
As I’ve said, this post was mainly focused on Namor & the Talokanil, and I didn’t go into depth with the other plots/characters because I’ve been a Namor fan for years so all my interest is hyperfocused on him and his people.
My complaint: Everett Ross’s entire plot was not needed in this movie, it literally could have been a phone call with the first scene and we could have gotten more scenes with Namor & the Talokanil.
Personally my one biggest gripe is that in the end Wakanda & Talokan should have gone after the main people who were a threat to their nations which was the american government, it was a earlier plot point with Queen Ramonda at the United Nations that was just dropped as the focus shifted over to Namor. I do wish they had keep that plot thread going and both Wakanda and Talokan had teamed up to fight the Government/Surface World etc. but this is a MCU Marvel/Disney movie and Disney/Marvel is never going to do anything so controversial as calling out the American or other governments in present day for their colonizing ways, which is why I feel keeping Colonization as something that happened in the distant past isn’t true. I know the realities of the studios politics and the message the movie was sending and tbh it really followed through on alot of things and my complaints are minor and doesn’t take away the sheer enjoyment and happiness I felt watching Namor and the Talokanil on screen. Also I’m so glad we got to see Namor’s artistic side, which he has in the comics as well.
Once again I am so glad that Namor is shown as a Man of Color and his people are Native Mesoamerican. I’ve always personally felt the coding in his comics meant that we would lose the impact of his story if they stripped him of his biracial poc coding and cast a generic white man. It was always my biggest worry when it came to thoughts of Live Action Namor.
I love how multifaceted Tenoch’s acting was with Namor. Tenoch Huerta is MY Namor, he is the perfect choice for Namor and I’ve stood by his casting since it was first announced.
Created in 1939 by Bill Everett, Namor is imo one of the best characters ever created in comics, and the mcu version is one that is equally as wonderful and complex. I love both versions very much.
#mcu namor#namor#mcu attuma#attuma#mcu namora#namora#black panther: wakanda forever#bpwf spoilers#meta#comic meta#mod: imperiuswrecked
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I love the fact they really put in effort to make Shuri different from T’Challa. The line about T’Challa being “too noble” was amazing, because that IS his story. “It’s hard for a good man to be a king”. That’s a huge part of his inner conflict in the comics. He struggles between putting Wakanda first over the rest of the world. He struggles to be king over being an avenger. Even in the mcu, there was absolutely no reason for him to offer Zemo or Killmonger any hint of sympathy or kindness or understanding, but he did. He kept Zemo alive (despite the man being responsible for his father’s death) and he was absolutely willing to save Killmonger. Because that IS the kind of person he is.
He revealed vibranium to the rest of the world to help. “You are wrong to turn your back to the rest of the world.” He wanted to provide aid and to protect not just those in Wakanda. He offered to heal and protect Bucky. He offered to house Steve as well (I’m assuming). He opened his borders to the avengers and stood right alongside them as they all fought Thanos. But his decisions that were made with good intentions, and to SAVE people, also came with repercussions as we see in bpwf.
With Shuri (at least this is my interpretation of what happened, supported by several scenes and her comic counterpart) I think she took everyone else’s words to heart in that moment with Namor. Unlike Zemo and Killmonger, Namor had an army. A powerful one. He wasn’t just one man. He and his entire underwater nation was a very real and powerful threat, and killing Namor, like M’baku had said, would’ve caused eternal conflict between their people, which would’ve hurt more Wakandans. And so she didn’t do it. Because Shuri, especially during this movie, and everything she and Wakanda had been through, will put her country first. She’s dutiful. That’s who she is in the comics as well.
It’s a beautiful contrast and I love them both for it.
#shuri#t'challa#black panther#bpwf#black panther wakanda forever#black panther wakanda forever spoilers#mcu#marvel#marvel comics#black panther comics#black panther spoilers#wakanda#layl.text#layl.meta#mcu meta#marvel meta#500
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lmao, not Namor stans saying “He was aiming for Riri, he didn’t mean to kill Romanda!” and “Wakanda should’ve persuaded the Tolkans into a peaceful alliance” When
1): Namor explicitly told Romanda he was going to kill her the moment she double-crossed him on any level to save Shuri and Riri from his abduction.
2): The Wakandans were never given the option of peace or a genuine alliance with the Talokans. Namor literally threatened them with death if they didn’t abduct a teenage girl (unaware she’d been goofed by the CIA) so he could kill her to protect his secret society.
Like, fam,
Let’s appreciate that he was full stop was not interested in peace or a situation where he wasn’t in complete control of the Wakandans, lording over folks like the god he thought he was.
That’s like pretending Killmonger didn’t use the US Military and the CIA’s warmongering ways to achieve his goal overthrow (white) America, and upend Wakanda to avenge his father’s murder. (Or simpler, intentionally kill his girlfriend once she became superfluous to his goals.)
Namor intentionally killed Romanda in Wakanda. Riri’s death was a bonus at that point.
(Like, there is a reason Shuri cooked him in a flying air fryer, burned him with an explosion close enough to kill her, then tore off one of his ankle wings.)
#black panther wakanda forever#anti mcu#fandom looked like fandom#greatrunners meta#queen romanda#namor#riri williams#erik killmonger
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namor loves his mother so very much. the loss of her has informed his every decision for half a millennium. it's a pain not even 500 years could soften
you would think, then, that the one line he refuses to cross is to take someone else's mother away from them. you would think.
#it just makes what he did feel so much worse#to inflict that trauma onto someone while knowing exactly how that kind of pain feels.. and onto someone who didn't even do anything to you#wakanda forever#shuri#namor#wakanda forever meta
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Thoughts about the MCU version of Namor and Atlantis? How do you think their very specific Mayan nature might play (or not play) into future films that are less concerned with colonial legacies than Wakanda Forever?
So I only just watched Wakanda Forever once it hit Disney +, and by and large I really liked the change of the, let's be honest, rather genericly sci-fi kingdom of Atlantis which has appeared in Marvel Comics to the much more historically, anthropologically, and culturally interesting concept of the Talokan being a group of Mayan refugees from Spanish imperialism who've created their own underwater civilization in the Caribbean.
After all, one of the things that used to make Namor such an interesting anti-hero in his first appearances in Timely Comics in the 40s is that Namor is depicted as non-white and having a beef against "the white man" (itself part of the Yellow Peril tradition of pulp fiction that goes back to Fu Manchu) and then only gradually shifts his ire to being more specifically anti-Nazi. A lot of this got removed in the Silver Age, where Namor gradually became depicted as whiter and whiter and his motivating animus becomes more broadly an environmental dislike of the "surface world" for polluting the oceans.
Having the Talokan be Mayan refugees and having Namor/K'uk'ulkan be motivated by his resistance to the Spanish Empire's systems of repartimiento, haciendas, encomendia, etc. gives him a very different and fresher and more specific reason to hate and oppose all forms of empire - including the American national security state. (I also didn't mind him being a mutant either.)
The one thing I was less enthused about was the link between the Talokan's origin and the whole idea of a second vibranium meteorite. I sort of understand why they went this way with the script - it ties them into the plot of Western nations trying to get their hands on vibranium through foul and fair means for national security reasons, it gives them a connection to Wakanda and Wakanda's broader political interests in the world, it provides the solution for Shuri to become the next Black Panther, etc.
But for my money, vibranium really should be exclusive to Wakanda and I think it makes Talokan a bit too similar to Wakanda when they can just be their own thing who dislike oceanic drilling by the U.S government because they live in the ocean and don't want anyone further industrializing their environment.
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Talokanil Clothing, Part Two
thank you to everyone who engaged with this post!
seeing more bts footage plus reading interviews and doing my own research has had me reevaluating some of my earlier assumptions, so here's a part two!
i've been sitting on the idea that the talokan plant is like a coconut (aka the tree of life in the tropics) equivalent to the talokanil for a while, but i wasn't sure if there was enough canon or real historical equivalent evidence to support this.
this post suggests that early talokanil clothing was made of the talokan plant's fibers. initially i was unsure about this bc i thought it was some kind of succulent, but then i came across this post suggesting it's a type of agave & suddenly everything made sense!
this gets long, but hear me out: agave is endemic to the americas and its variants hold historical and cultural importance in central america (pre-hispanic up to present). it takes a long time to mature, the exact length varying from species to species (hence the moniker century plant), and flowers and seeds only once before dying (radding 2012, 84-115). parts of the agave are edible, but its two most prominent uses are for fibers and alcohol production. two agave cultigens, A. fourcroydes (henequen) and A. sisalana (sisal) are known fiber producers, and are both native to the yucatán (trejo-torres, gann, and christenhusz 2018, 366-379).
another variant, A. americana aka maguey (although it seems the term maguey is can be used to refer to other agave species), also produces fibers that can be used for woven and non-woven textiles and even paper (hulle, kadole, and katkar 2015, 64-75), and is a species of agave that can be used to produce the alcoholic drink mezcal. A. tequilana is the sole agave species used to produce tequila (which i believe can be technically called a type of mezcal). both mezcal & tequila are distilled from the fermented, roasted "hearts" of the agave. the method to distill mezcal (and later, tequila) was introduced during the colonial era, likely by indigenous filipinos who arrived via the manila-acapulco galleon trade (walton 1977, 113-132).
pulque is the pre-colonial equivalent of mezcal/tequila, made from the fermented agave sap (many species can be used). its consumption was highly regulated & associated with religious rituals (escalante et al. 2016). described as a white, slightly viscous liquid, pulque does somewhat call to mind the liquid the shaman made from the talokan plant, although the latter was, of course, blue. this is a side note, but a mural in cholula, puebla, mexico, depicts a gathering of people purportedly drinking pulque. the production team may have taken some inspiration from this as well for the flashback scenes.
the goddess mayahuel is associated with maguey & pulque, as well as femininity & fertility (guzmán 2016). (i'm a bit confused bc wiki says she's aztec, but escalante et al. & guzmán don't give a specific indication. her name though is nahuatl-derived.)
so anyway! we have a wonder plant with cultural and religious significance that can provide both food and clothing, and may even be used in construction (including in composites)! it makes so much sense that the talokan plant is a type of agave, albeit of course one with properties that no irl species has.
i've read several hannah beachler interviews but i haven't come across one where she talks about whether or not there was more of the talokan plant. the rest of this post hinges on the assumption that the talokanil are actively cultivating the plant, or something similar (which i'll be referring to as talokanil agave from now on), so if later canon lore proves me wrong — well, i'll cross that bridge when i get there lol.
for additional context, since i'm only here to speculate on the materials used in-universe, this twitter thread here provides a breakdown as to the accuracy of the clothing styles of the talokanil vis-à-vis pre-colonial maya.
now that's done, let's get to the actual speculation:
i'm inclined to retract my previous assertion that coconut coir was used in the warriors' uniforms; instead, what i took to be coconut coir is probably talokanil agave. (although they could probably still use coconut if they really wanted to!)
when i wrote the first post, i didn't realize how many outfit changes k'uk'ulkan goes through during the talokan scenes, but from what i can tell of the textures, they could all very well be made of talokanil agave or even just regular maguey. while cotton was more associated with elites over maguey in irl pre-colonial mesoamerica (tremain 2020, 1-11), i haven't seen anything yet that would indicate that nobility wouldn't wear maguey.
i'd thought namora's ceremonial dress would be heavy but we see it in action in mabel's ig post and it's actually very light! iris van herpen, the designer, has said in an ig post that the cape feathers are made of silver-lined silk organza. underwater, the effect is something like seagrass or kelp moving with the currents, which is very pretty. when i look up silk in mesoamerica, many of the sites are, strangely, associated with the church of the latter-day saints, but one textile-focused website at least indicates that widespread silk production began and flourished during the colonial era, so i think we can rule out actual silk as the in-universe material for the dress. maybe very high quality cotton or talokanil agave (especially for the silver lining. unless it's vibranium!).
we also see one of namora's surface outfits used underwater in a bts clip from mabel, one which i thought would be too heavy to wear in the water. i mean, i guess, technically, you can wear anything you want underwater, but comfort is a different matter. in my previous post, i'd said i'd thought this particular dress and the others she and the handmaidens wore were made out of some kind of barkcloth, but, surprise, again, it's probably talokanil agave or regular maguey (agave sisal is resistant to seawater).
the twitter thread i mentioned above has some insights into attuma's ceremonial outfit, including that he's wearing a jaguar pelt. the talokanil could very well have some kind of coming-of-age ceremony where they go to the surface for the first time to hunt. or attuma could just be an adrenaline junkie lol. hammerhead sharks, jaguars — it's all the same to him. as for the rest of the outfit, i'm gonna say different grades of talokanil agave bc why not!
at different points in the film, namora and shuri both wear body jewelry primarily made of jade. iris van herpen has said that shuri's also has pearls and Spondylus shell beads (the orangey-pink ones). namora's doesn't appear to contain Spondylus but perhaps other precious stones (maybe obsidian?). that might indicate some kind of difference in status, or some kind of oblique reference to namora being a warrior, since obsidian was often used for weapons (saunders 2001, 220-236).
shuri's second talokan outfit has feathers on the back, reminiscent of the tail plumes of the resplendent quetzal (yes, as in the bird associated with quetzalcoatl, the aztec equivalent of kukulcan. this man is never beating the egocentric allegations 💀). however, the color is wrong. resplendent quetzals have primarily green plumage & only the males sport the iconic tail feathers. moreover, resplendent quetzals live in the highland rainforests, not the coastal areas. so i'm not sure if this means that the feathers are from a different bird species altogether, or, like namora's headdress, they are not actually feathers but fish fins. i haven't found a high-res enough photo of the outfit so i still can't be sure.
the rest of the outfit appears to be a mix of fabrics, heavier on top and lighter on the bottom. i'm intrigued that the bottom half is pants, because we haven't seen any talokanil wear anything similar. could this be a leftover from the cut scenes where shuri & riri were supposed to work on something for k'uk'ulkan, & this is an outfit she came up with herself? they might have given her the fabric & told her to go to town, which could explain why the design looks very different from what we've seen of talokanil fashion. i think riri also gets a different outfit but i can't find good photos of it.
now her scenes were cut from the final version of the film, but one of the talokanil extras posted some intriguing bts footage. her character was supposed to a scientist (likely from the cut scenes with shuri & riri). she's not blue & isn't wearing face/gill masks, suggesting her parts take place underwater.
her outfit is pretty unconventional compared to namora's or the handmaidens'. she appears to be wearing more plant life (probably some sort of kelp & seagrass, among other species i don't recognize), but the main body of her outfit looks strangely artificial. i'm not sure if this is intentional or if her final appearance was meant to be tweaked with cgi (the mesh underneath is throwing me off). i would like to say her outfit is probably mostly made of talokanil vibranium, but i'm not sure if that would be realistic in-universe (would that mean she is of high status? another relative of k'uk'ulkan perhaps? or does jade still mean more to the talokanil than vibranium, therefore her use of it doesn't necessarily indicate status?). in any case, she's the only talokanil we're aware of who eschews traditional clothing styles.
additional bts footage from jewelianna ramos-ortiz (the scientist) also show other talokanil who are dressed differently from the regular warriors we see. they aren't blue either, but we do see that they have on red body paint (which we have not seen other talokanil use). google scholar is being reticent but as far as i can tell, body paint in pre-colonial mesoamerica, when not in a funerary context, was associated with ceremonies or festivals. the latter likely used organic compounds such as cochineal or achoite (that's achuete/atsuete for us filipinos), while the former employed the toxic cinnabar (source). with the talokanil, it could really go either way; we don't know if they're as immune to toxins as they are to stab wounds. i'm not sure about the seawater resistance of either type of pigment though.
interestingly, they appear to be wearing the leaves of surface plants (none of which i recognize, unfortunately, even after some googling of native yucatán flora). their different manner of dress may indicate the nature of their role in talokanil society, though as to what that role is remains to be seen.
one funny implication though of practically everyone in talokan wearing talokanil agave is that shuri could've just taken anyone's clothes to re-create the heart-shaped herb, including the ones she was given 💀 but the talokanil still could've cultivated the plant in the past centuries such that the variant they use for clothing differs quite a bit from the original so it wouldn't work as well. like maybe they have a "drink this to save your life. for emergencies only" cultigen & a "for everyday life" cultigen lol.
aaaaand that's it! if you're still reading this, thank you! this was a fun research exercise, although i probably still missed a lot. this was practically a whole damn research paper lmao. let me know your thoughts!
#black panther: wakanda forever#bpwf#wakanda forever#namor#namora#attuma#shuri#riri williams#talokan#i needed to get exorcise this from my brain#calemonsito notes#long post#mcu namor#mcu namora#mcu attuma#mcu k'uk'ulkan#mcu shuri#mcu riri williams#sorry the tone is all over the place my brain couldn't decide if it was writing meta or a scholarly article lmao#'i needed to get exorcise this from my brain'??? lmao sorry i was half-asleep when i posted this
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the courtship of princess shuri
should we talk about the courtship of shuri?
let’s be real, namor is gambling a lot on shuri accepting any type of proposal. he’s showing her his home, he’s being vulnerable about his trauma, and he is risking the wrath of wakanda with holding her ‘hostage ’.
so why shuri? i got three reasons- the mythical, the political, and the romantic.
firstly, it’s because she’s his mirror image. not to bang on the same drum but wakanda forever is extremely mythic. i’m comfortable in believing some soulmatism is at play here. despite never meeting her before, he recognises something that is within himself. and he is drawn to it. like two halves of the same soul trying to stitch itself together again. despite being princess and god king, they are mythic equals. they burn with the same fire.
secondly, she’s the princess of wakanda. if there was anyone who would be the best person to strategically seduce it would be her. why? because he overhead both the queen and princess on the beach. while the queen was reaching for peace, the princess was reaching for anger. he knew which one to charm. winning over the heir to the throne would a massive win for his kingdom’s strategic interests. a defence alliance would be inevitable and he would have achieved protection for his people. it’s straightforward politicking. and this hope of an alliance drives him through the entire movie. he’s blinded by it.
thirdly, he’s intrigued by shuri. i have no doubt that he knew of shuri before they met on the beach. it’s not the biggest reach that he would be aware of the princess who’s a scientific genius, scoffs at tradition but is also ready to go into battle to protect her people. i think this reason is solidified during her visit talokan. her compassion, empathy and sense of justice, even in the midst of her grief, threatens to bend him slightly. you see him pause and bargain with her. the more he’s around her, the more he wants her to stick around.
i think all three reasons are correct. it’s a mixture of hope for an alliance, meeting a mythic equal, and shuri’s attractive characteristics which makes namor pursue her and this ‘courtship’.
and how did her court her? well:
he gives her a beautiful talokanil gown that is dripping is jade (one of the most valuable stones and has many connotations with love). it was specifically made for her. his symbol is also embroidered in it. he is also dressed to the nines, regal- he wanted to dress up for her. which makes sense. he wants to impress her.
he gifts her a valuable family heirloom. the bracelet is gorgeous, but also was the symbolic promised made to his mother that namor would be king. he’s openly trusting her with an object that holds so much history and it’s a gift of gratitude. what is he thanking her for? her openness, understanding, empathy? she has obviously left a stunning impression on the god king.
he tells her the story of talokan. knowledge is power and it’s a scene of both trust and vulnerability that he lets her know the history of his people. and he emphasises the why over the how. he needs her to understand why the protection of his people are so important to him.
he makes her one of the only people from the surface to see talokan. it isn’t clear whether he planned this from the start or if shuri’s eagerness made him throw caution to wind. again he remarks how he was blinded by hope, so maybe the latter. he is also very proud to show off the sun he gave to his people. a scientific genius seeing an underwater sun that he built?! yeah, he knows what he’s doing
maybe most importantly, he listens and offers her understanding when she is opening up about her pain. he talks about his fears and vulnerabilities too. as a god, he is constantly grieving the lives of tolakanil who age normally. he is unable to answer her questions, but gives advice from his ancestors and alludes to the fact she could still be a great leader, even if she feels broken.
and let it be known that namor was written to be seductive. ryan coogler says as much. coogler also lists the key principles that they couldn’t change about namor, a few of these things being his charisma, confidence and hitting on other people’s wives. simply, namor was written to have that seductive swagger and charm that could win over people.
and it was working. at the end of their little moment, shuri has a greater understanding and respect towards namor and talokan. she accepts him putting the bracelet on around her wrist when she could have easily refused. she truly admires what namor has done for his people. this is the guy who threatened wakanda with an army the first time he met the queen and wants to kill riri williams. and shuri let her guard down and allowed him to charm her. but not to the point of throwing away her own sense of justice. something namor tries to bargain with but has no such luck.
but even after shuri is ‘rescued’ it’s still so telling that shuri keeps wearing the bracelet until someone brings attention to it. namor is literally caressing the shell he gave to wakanda after shuri leaves. he teases and calls her princess in the midst of battle. whatever they had didn’t just die when she left talokan. only there’s no time to dwell on it when war comes knocking.
it could have been different namor remarks after everything. after attacking wakanda, killing her mother and finally stabbing shuri onto a rock. it’s interesting that’s what his mind goes to. their unofficial ‘courtship’. and he doesn’t seem victorious in that moment. just deeply disappointed. the hope he had cruelly taken away from him.
shuri revives that hope. with a spear at his throat, she is reminded of her time in talokan, of namor’s smile, at his love for his people. she draws parallels and sees herself in him. it’s what brings back her from the brink of eternal war. and she offers an alliance on her terms.
so the question is, was the courtship a success?
namor seems to think so. or at least he knows this isn’t the end. he believes princess shuri will inevitably be back for his help soon enough once the world turns on wakanda. and then the control would be back in his court. i can’t help but think he has other reasons besides politics as to why he wants shuri to turn to him. the lonely god craves an equal. but these reasons might get him into trouble with namora.
it is clear that the ‘courtship’ of princess shuri was not a failure, but warm up for next game between panther and feathered serpent which namor is eagerly awaiting. i don’t believe shuri could be so easily charmed this time round, but i’ll never underestimate a relentless god who has found his mythical equal.
#i love looking at their dynamic like this#wakanda forever spoilers#wakanda forever#namuri#namor x shuri#shuri x namor#meta#marvel#mcu#black panther#nashuri
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Shuri Meta: A Dark Prince and his Kidnapped Bride...
Once upon a time...
There were (and still are... see: Red Riding Hood for free on youtube rn, which also uses some of this construct), girls who embodied a kind of beauty and innocence, with a suggested hint of darkness and the beginnings of exploring desire, being seduced by a dark figure.
These constructs were (and still are) popular...
Pretty girl, embodying beauty, and purity (but with an obvious dark streak, that comes from grief, neglect, and so many other possible places) and a dark prince who is struck by that.
He gives her gifts...but he also takes. A baby brother, killing a unicorn in order to drape the entire world in permenant darkness.
Hell, even the gown is a common trope...(within WAKANDA FOREVER they name some of these in Riri's lines noting it and still....*woosh!*)
Ultimately, the goal is for her to be his bride, to dwell in the dark with him. To mutually destroy and then rule over it together.
This was and still is a basic archeotypical space girls play in, either as a way to explore burgeoning desire in womahood in a fictional imaginative space or to tread a well-worn road, they enjoy.
...And I mean ANCIENT. These stories been around since BC and AD in most cultures all over the world.
But in Hollywood...
That particular space was almost exclusively *white*
And envisioning an Afro- and/or Metzo/Indig-fantasy construct??????
*PSSSHHHH* To even begin to bring up that was possible, would likely get a WTF look and then, laughter and tears.
And this is despite the fact that these constructs are at their oldest in these cultural spaces.
And yet, here we are...
In a film, that bravely and fully jumps into the grief pool...and still has laughter, character development, and an arc, that includes the beauty being seduced by the dark prince trope.
And this time....She's *not* snow white skin.
She's deep brown skin.
She's not long dark wavy hair...
She's short carefully beautifully constructed coils...
She's not embellished with sparkly blush and pink gloss...
Her brown skin is dotted with white mourning ritual paint.
She's not *even* biracially acceptable, with beige skin and long curly hair...& not even as a dark-skinned young woman, has she been "softened" in a way that comfortably signals "we still added these things that subliminally signals feminine/desirablity markers for you to help soften the fact that she's dark", i.e. long micro-braids, false eyelashes, et al
...and yet, here she is, with a story-arc, that heavily samples this construct and even some black women & girls are startled by it.
#short meta#wakanda forever#shuri#I tweeted through the musk that the thing that got me and is super-rare#is the conversation#that conversation you rare-to-never see but *needs* to be more common#of mutually oppressed groups being like ‟they suck let's get them‟#angela bassett lives yall#her losing everything is her darkness#that she didn't succumb is her hero's journey#those bars aren't curtains
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Hello, you asked me about my thoughts on the wardrobe choices in Wakanda Forever but it's too long to put where you asked the question so I thought I'd just put in in an ask.
When Ramonda and Shuri are at the river where they first meet Namor Shuri's clothes are yellow and teal. I thought those interesting colours at first because she's never worn them before - then I realised they are the colour of his gold and jade he wears. So that wardrobe choice implies they're in sync with each others' sentiments.
There's the bridal dress (obviously). I honestly thought when he offered her clothes it would be like the ones we'd seen on the people of Talocan or Namora. So this pale dress covered in jade took me out. By the time the bracelet turned up I was legit worried that Shuri was accepting a marriage proposal in ignorance.
There's also the second wardrobe change Shuri has in the cave when she and Namor are just talking - which is also yellow and teal again (contrast this with Riri's which is a similar style but plain blue) showing she and Namor are still in sync - until she escapes.
Then there's Ramonda's dress on the beach where she meets Namor. Correct me if I'm wrong but l don't think we've ever seen décolletage on Ramonda in any dress, even during the first film. Most interesting is the metal detailing accenting around and drawing the eye to it. It seemed by implication that Ramonda was trying to distract Namor from Shuri, meaning that part of her anxiety for her kidnapped daughter was sexual. Worse Namor gives her that horrible smile and says Shuri's staying put - it wouldn't put me at ease nevermind that he follows it woth threats.
I think Ramonda knew what was up and it was a hell no from her - so I always side-eye that Namor didn't try to work with her or even one allay her fears (which seemed counter to his claim of wanting an alliance). Which makes me think the alliance he actually wanted was one with Shuri only - and none of his actions have convinced me he wasn't (and still isn't thinking political marriage).
OH WOW 🤯 THIS IS AMAZING
I'm really intrigued by what you say about Ramonda's style of dress when she asked Namor about her daughter...you're right, I never saw her dressed like that before in any of the movies. The idea that she was trying subconsciously to "distract" Namor from being interested in her daughter has my jaw dropping to the floor!
And I'm also still not over Namor not trying to bargain with Ramonda for an alliance with Wakanda or even doing better to ease her fears about Shuri's safety. What was he thinking? I'm with you- was a political marriage what he was subtly aiming for???
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, this is awesome!
#namor x shuri#shuri x namor#namuri#nashuri#seaprincess#analysis#meta#wakanda forever#black panther 2#black panther wakanda forever#answering asks#thanks so much this is giving me a lot to think about!
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