Do you have any thoughts about Jason attacking Tim at Titans Tower? For better or worse fandom seems to have latched onto that as a key moment for their stories, and I suspect the "pit madness" is in part trying to reconcile the wild inconsistencies in Jason's characterisation that acknowledging that event creates.
oh yeah im not a fan of Teen Titans (vol 3) #29 at all <3
FIRSTLY. i just want to lay out in more detail the distinction u make between (a) reconciling wild inconsistencies and (b) acknowledging the event. this will mostly be Kat Is Stating The Obvious Once Again (sorry) but i DO find it personally very helpful to be explicit about methodology so bear with me:
i think a lot of arguments about character interpretations are the result of people using slightly different interpretative frameworks when it comes to handling the large body of published content in comics
the two types of framework for handling contradictory content that you've noted here are: (a) trying to rationalise everything into a single story that accounts for everything depicted, and (b) omitting certain content when forming a picture of the character.
it's rare to see people entirely use one or the other, and neither is, in themselves, inherently better or worse (at least in my view). they achieve slightly different things, and i think the most appropriate one depends on the context and personal taste.
in particular, everyone already does use (b) to an extent, bc no one has read and remembers every single comic ever in existence that is set in the dc storyworld - so everyone is already inherently using only a selected body of texts to inform their interpretations.
i regularly use both - in particular, you've probably seen me using (a) with regard to kyle :)
with jason, though, i'm very firmly in category (b): when it comes to the many contradictions and inconsistencies in his published appearances, i omit a significant portion from my interpretation of him. this is because for me, this method makes for a more satisfactory story - working within it makes the subsequent reception i might engage in (art, writing, and meta) much more rewarding.
(b) isn't always appropriate when it comes to criticisng a text or doing deeper analysis, and it can be unhelpful when people lean on it extensively. further, not every comic or author has the same authority on a character - for instance, a character's initial appearances will often have more weight, or a character's solo is more likely to treat their character with depth than their appearances in an ensemble book.
so anyway. YES you're right, some people will use the lazarus pits as a plot device to try and engage in (a) with respect to jason. i'm very much working in terms of (b) though, so i personally disregard Teen Titans #29.
also just to note! i like working with multiple interpretations of a character at a time (like w bruce!), and i also genuinely enjoy when other people arrive at different interpretations to me while still engaging meaningfully with the text - that's part of what's been so fun about starting this blog actually :) like everyone's so smart and thoughtful and imo there's no point in reading what other people have to say if they're just going to repeat my own words back at me!!! so even though the approach of lazarus pit madness is not to my taste and i dislike the way it's used to sidestep familial conflict in the aftermath of utrh by significant portions of this site, i'm not like. trying to say there's an objectively right or wrong interpretation or way to engage with the text. that's slightly off-topic but i just wanted 2 say that like. things being not to my personal taste ≠ incorrect way of engaging w the text. u know????
TO ANSWER YOUR ACTUAL QUESTION. lol
i think with jason in particular, the levels of contradictions and inconsistencies in his story means everyone who's dealing with him is doing a significant level of interpretation. the way we do this will differ depending on what we prioritise about his story
for me, for example, i prioritise the emotional throughline in the final scene of utrh and the question it raises about bruce and jason's respective views on justice and familial obligations, and for that reason, i think it's important jason raise his grievances from a place of genuine conviction, and i'll disregard texts that aim to position his actions here as controlled by external sources or texts that conflict with the values he states in this scene.
this also means that if a text requires me to adopt a rationale like 'well jason was just particularly possessed by the lazarus pit that day' in order to explain his actions in it, i'd much rather just omit the text from my interpretation altogether, particularly given its content doesn't add anything compelling that makes that justification worthwhile.
so yeah. teen titans #29 is one such text. i omit it from my interpretation of jason altogether. it actively undermines the aspects of jason's story up to that point that i do like, and it doesn't add anything even if you do rationalise it using something like lazarus pit madness, and so for me it's not worth the cost of rationalising it into jason’s story.
more on the precise things i dislike about teen titans #29 below because i am CHRONICALLY incapable of shutting up. the important stuff is above its just me nitpicking from now on
so i dislike the entire way it frames jason's relationship with tim. i think there's a number of different and compelling angles you can take on how jason would likely react to his successor, and mostly i think any emotional reaction he might have would be directed squarely at bruce, alfred and maybe dick - i don't think he'd have particular interest in tim other than as an annex to jason's existing familial relationships. like u know, the way jason threatens tim in the hush storyline specifically in order to get to bruce. like i just genuinely don't think jason would care enough about tim outside his connection to bruce to go all the way to san francisco about it
and THEN there's just the absolutely bizarre choice to have jason beat tim with the explicit intention to, in Jason's words, "show you [Tim] what the Joker did to me." ????? like jason in utrh does some unnecessary and deeply cruel things, but in the final scene of utrh he is genuinely distressed by his own death and argues bruce should be entirely capable of murdering someone who would do that to a child, and in fact, that bruce has an actual ethical obligation to kill the joker as a result. having jason repeat the joker’s actions here is completely incongruent with his genuine convictions in the monstrosity of the act in utrh. so i think its contradictory with the entire underlying premise of utrh
so yeah i just think the grievances he apparently has in Teen Titans #29 make him seem weirdly petty and immature, overly concerned with tim, and also contradict his prior established character in a manner that Does Not Compel Me in the slightest. its a weird reading of his character!!!!!! it’s not an interpretation supported by any further textual material and i think it’s extremely safe just to ignore it. personally
anyway sorry 2 state the obvious 128732482 times and thank u for asking this!! i think it's interesting 2 talk about and i like picking apart interpretative questions :)
hello bffs making a new updated post bc its neverending but if u dont know im autistic and have a few disorders that i take some v expensive meds to treat at the same time that i have to like. afford college and house bills and etc and commissions online r pretty much my main source of income at the moment. SO! if u would like to support and help:
my commissions are open! i accept commissions for tumblr themes (both main blog / fansite blogs), layouts (headers, icons, sidebars, etc), psds, gifsets (even for fandoms i am not in), templates, tutorials, redbubble designs (this one i don't charge for the design and the price is the standard product price on the website)
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After watching the final episode of Netflix’s Wednesday, rewatching the whole thing a second time, and then letting it sit for a couple days to get my thoughts together, here are my overall likes/dislikes/critiques. Hopefully I don’t forget anything as I tend to do sometimes. I am notorious for long written posts, you’ve been warned.
❌ WEDNESDAY SPOILERS ❌ [obviously]
I still hold true that overall I quite love the show. While there are a few critiques and things I didn’t like very much or that I thought could be done better, I would watch it again and still enjoy myself. So now to get into my thoughts in the form of bullet points and lists :). The critiques may seem longer, but that’s mainly because I go into a bit of a rant in regards to writing and choices and stuff. Overall what I like does out way what I disliked or considered flaws.
-What I Liked-
• The casting and overall characterization of Wednesday Addams.
• Maintaining that she’s so bizarrely out of the scape of ‘normalcy’ that she’s an outcast even amongst other outcasts.
• Latino main characters and representation for once.
• Enid. I love her claws and just everything.
• The focus on being primarily Wednesday and not on the Addams as a whole. It’s a Wednesday show about HER after all. The whole internal conflict is her not wanting to be overshadowed by her mother.
• The further exploration of Wednesday not just being a mini-Morticia
• The inclusion of the supernatural, creatures and such and showing how being a different species does not necessarily make you the oddest one out.
• Gothic Aesthetics done wonderfully.
• Wednesday’s wardrobe.
• Wednesday actively listening to Spanish music and the language overall being used a bit more in dialogue by, yknow, Latino characters and not limited to the usual “hola” and “gracias” in the script. Have Latino characters speak more Spanish more often please I get so excited every time…I promise it’s accurate why do you think spanglish is a thing?
• The headmistress and how it didn’t go down the stereotypical “evil headmistress/the headmistress was the one behind it all or involved” plot twist.
• The school was more interesting and kind of better than Hogwarts and that’s coming from someone who’s a massive HP fan all my life. I just wish we could have spent more times at the school related stuff doing school things. Maybe go harder on the monster high vibes (OG monster high, not G3)
• The uniforms and having Wednesday’s be different was a great choice. This girl cannot be seen in any other color that would just be blasphemy and I can totally see her taking and dying the uniform herself.
• Cello, Typewriter, Gramophone (or as most people would refer to it “record player”). Made me very happy to see those as they are literally things I love as an antique collector and user.
• I love that she’s a writer. Not just cause I can relate as a writer myself. But because it just fits so incredibly well.
• Using the term normie.
• Fuck colonizers
• Blood dance visuals
• Dark Gothy tone with gothic architecture, a boarding school with very nice uniforms, Murder mystery, secret societies…this show is dark academia.
• young Gomez and Morticia was fun to explore.
• Thing. But that’s a given.
• I can go on and on about what I liked but then this will end up way too long.
Things I Felt Could Be Done Better But Did Not Hate.
• Morticia Addams. I thought the actress did a lovely job overall (she certainly got that Morticia walk down), and I don’t really agree with a lot of peoples criticisms. But I would have liked to see a bit more attention to the part she plays in the strain between her and Wednesday. Like I would have liked to spend a bit more time on that, it kind of felt like it just got dropped after that one episode where the parents come to the school and Wednesday’s complex about being compared to her just disappears a bit too quickly.
• Weems and Morticias whole thing going on. Loved the idea but sad it wasn’t explored more, it had such interesting potential. Especially in regards to Weems and Wednesday’s dynamic.
• The whole resolution between Gomez and the Sheriff dude was way too fast. Your telling me this guy that has held a grudge for years against Gomez, is suddenly going to be all friendly after it being proven he was innocent? An apology is fine but then that should have been it. I dunno that final interaction between them even if ht was really short felt a little too “we are friends now yeah my son likes your daughter haha isn’t that funny”. Just would have liked that executed a smidge differently.
• The drama with Bianca, I liked what we got but would have liked to see more of a rivalry and moments like that.
Things I Disliked/Critiques
• while the CGI wasn’t the absolute most amazing, it wasn’t the worse…until we get to the CGI and overall designs of large creatures. I’m sure you must know I’m referring to the Hyde, but Enid’s werewolf form is not at all exempt from this criticism. Granted the Hyde’s form is a lot more agreggious. The only thing I disliked about Enid’s wolf form was her face. As a furry that follows many furry artists including ones that work with 3D sculpting and stuff, I dunno. I felt like the face, the snoot mainly, could have been shaped differently? She looks kind of derpy, the body is fine but it’s just that face. Also the way her hair/fur in her head was shaped reminded me and my partner of bibble.The Hyde though? Everything but ESPECIALLY the face. And why do Tyler’s eyeballs have to be the first things that transform and bulge out I could not stop laughing it was so…wow. It reminded me of when cartoons inflate themselves by blowing into their thumb and their head is the first thing to expand like. I dunno I couldn’t take it seriously. The art Xavier drew of the Hyde looked way cooler and scarier than the actual model of the Hyde, which is such a shame because I think the model could have done the art justice if just a few tweaks and details where added. There wasn’t enough detail so I feel like that made the face look cartoonish in an uncanny way, and not in a good uncanny way.
• Why is Wednesday so eager to work with the police? You could probably argue that she only worked and cooperated with them because they had access to resources she needed so yknow she was using them but that’s not how it came off. This is I think one of two things I did not agree with In regards to this characterization of Wednesday. And yes there are really only two as far as I remember. She was way too cooperative with the sheriff, wanting to work together with him which is very out of character even to this very characterization of her. We are supposed to see how she commits all sorts of criminal activities no problem, I mean it’s in her nature, but she still goes and asks to work with the sheriff? It made it feel almost like a jarring 180 when she did what we expect her to do, disregard morals and torture/kill people without batting an eye. Not sure if I’m making much sense. I would have expected her to have acted like Bianca in that regard, not trusting the police and going straight to Weems instead like she had said to her.
• The second thing I didn’t agree with in regards to this characterization, and it is mainly because I don’t think it’s written well. Why is Wednesday, the girl that is writing and has written several mystery novels about a detective, probably has done in depth research on murders and crime and probably has read detective novels herself…committing the mistake of jumping to conclusions way too soon and forgetting evidence that would actually debunk that conclusion? Like the whole thing with Xavier. Her first inclination to confront him and accuse him? Yeah okay. That’s fine. She’s a teen she’s bound to be impulsive. But after she knew the DNA results had come back and didn’t match? Why did she ignore/completely forget that and continue to pursue, even arrest Xavier? As a suspect yeah he could have remained in her list of suspicious peoples but shouldn’t she have considered that very specific debunking fact SHE had sought out in the first place? Wednesday is a clever person, and she’s written here to be considered as such. But she’s conveniently written to forget or not consider things that I felt like she absolutely would have while sleuthing. Not only that, but just…I feel like after falsely accusing Xavier, and then being further made to question her own deductions thanks to the results of the DNA, why did she continue to go and throw out accusations so easily? It would have made more sense to me if the DNA results made her question her first conclusions and sort of take a step back and proceed more carefully when it came to investigating her potential suspects. She wouldn’t have continued to make the exact same mistake the next several times. I think this was done with the intention of showing how she interpreted her visions with too much bias and kept clinging to a story she put together rather than consider how her visions only show a small piece and not the full picture…but I feel like the over repetition of her kind of blindly going up to and accusing people didn’t quite show that.
• Everything with Tyler and Xavier portraying anything Wednesday did or said as “signals”. I’m fine with either of them kind of crushing on her. With Xavier, it did feel a bit more one sided and more like he was trying to get close to a girl he liked but then later I feel like that got ruined by him saying “you don’t know who your real friends are” just because his attempts and advances where ignored or rejected or obliviously brushed off. It veered into demanding a bit and not actually being considerate of how she just doesn’t work that way. She’s not selfish for only focusing on a mystery she’s been very clear about wanting to solve, she’s not selfish for not paying any mind to you or your advances. Same goes with Tyler but I feel like he’s kind of worse. At first I found it cute but when he said stuff about her “sending signals” and “I thought you liked me” I was like huh? When? Where? I was at first under the impression it would develop into a more obvious attraction between them as Wednesday learned to navigate any feelings she was beginning to experience for the first time, but by the time he says that there hasn’t been an inkling of development in regards to romance yet other than his very clear interest in her. But not so much the other way around. Also, while I understand being upset or jealous that the person you like is going or chose to go to a dance with someone else…you’re not entitled to them or their time? You can’t really get mad at them for not choosing you when they haven’t even made any actual advance or show of interest towards you. This goes for Xavier too. Why is it that when she went to ask for his help when he was locked up, and she told him about the vision she had that exposed Tyler as the Hyde, his focus was on her “getting action while he’s being framed”…wouldn’t you at least be more interested in how someone finally knew you where innocent and was going to help you? Basically…with both boys it just came off as very forced “obligatory Hetero love interests”. Because it was literally just “Boy like girl. Girl interacts with boy. Boy takes that as interest from girl who is clearly not in tune with those kinds of emotions and hasn’t shown a single whiff of interest. Girl ignores advances and puts epic mystery above any romance. Guy gets mad and views this as selfish and callous for not reciprocating and focusing on her case even though this is all she would talk about around them”. It just feels like they could have done the same conflicts and plot lines with these characters without it having to be love interest right off the bat. Developed in a later season? Yeah okay. But instantly? Instant love interests that are forced in? It feels a but pushing heteronormativity and kind of disregards how character development should be gradual. People growing and especially someone who is not in tune with emotions won’t suddenly be interested in a boyfriend when they don’t even have interest with friends. Someone like Wednesday that is used to isolation and only relying on herself needs to first develop an understanding of friendships and how it’s okay to let people be your friend, that it’s not a weakness, before jumping to insta romances.
• This might go back to the whole sleuthing thing before but I’ll put it in a separate bullet point cause I would not want to make them too terribly long. But…the way Wednesday figured out Tyler was the Hyde…she didn’t actually figure it out. It was pretty much spelled out for her, shown to her. And that could be fine if executed differently but it takes away from the whole whodunnit detective-ing thing. There’s a level of satisfaction we get when we watch or read our main characters finally solving a mystery and finding out the epic answers we witnessed them searching for this whole time, and I feel like having her figure it out because her vision power actually showed her takes away from her actually solving it thanks to her cleverness and the clues she gathered, as well as conflicts with the whole “don’t trust your visions so easily they don’t show the full story and you have to learn how to navigate them” plot.
• Next. Weem’s death. Why? I really wanted to see that character arc between her and Wednesday flourish and conclude properly, maybe even have them bond a little? Explore more about her as a character and her past through Wednesday? But she died. They killed big tall lady headmistress >:(. And so quickly too not even a final word to Wednesday or anything. I get why but still. Such a loss of great potential.
• The vampires are there…but…where are they? We introduce sirens and their existence, we explore werewolves and how they work. Adequat introductory lore for those. But Vampires get one mention, and that’s it. I didn’t even realize Yoko was a vampire until I realized all the vampires wore sunglasses. I would have liked an actual main character with more than two lines to have been a vampire. I would have liked to explore a little of what vampires in this world were like the way we got to explore the wolves and the sirens a little bit. As a vampire enthusiast this made me sad.
• It kind of feels like they where too scared to go full Wednesday Addams level of cruelty and immorality. Like they kept her personality in tact but things where a bit too almost sanitized to keep her as the “good protagonist” when she’s a very very very dark grey. She’s always had a strong sense of justice but she’s not above vengeance and carrying it out in the most fucked yo ways possible. You can’t have her gush over serial killers and but then call the murderer behind the killings a “psychotic murderer” in a derogatory way but then admire murder cases. When we all know she would have been impressed by it at least a little. Cause she’s morbid that way. Also I read someone say that she would have driven her therapist insane and I wish she had that would have been so perfect. There’s ways to differentiate a character like her from the actual antagonists without watering down those aspects. Like when she was down to torture Tyler. But that ended up conflicting with some other things due to that “watering down/sanitization” of her actions.
•I didn’t mind Ajax as character but he also felt particularly empty and like he was only added in to ensure heteronormativity love interests for the mains. He especially had not much to him, no real development, hardly a personality, and on top of that it’s just established that Enid likes him but we never explore any of that so it feels empty and thus forced and shallow.
• Why are there no gay guys? Or non-binary/trans? I see the lesbian parents and potentially lesbian Yoko and that other girl but like…can we have some gay men too please? And gender inclusivity? Non-binary/Trans people would be a nice inclusion to this allegory about outcasts and being different to societal norms.
That’s it for now. If I remember anything else I’ll edit it in probably :) sorry it’s so long I just have lots of thoughts in this silly skull of mine.
Bonus section, personal headcanons I agree with :)
• Autistic Wednesday
• Morticia is totally aware of weem’s resentment towards her and considering how the Addams tend to have a very different perspective on things most people view as a bad thing, she’d likely consider it a nice aspect of their friendship. Don’t all friendships include the spice of bitter resentment?
• Bisexual Enid
• Wednesday starts listening to true crime and supernatural podcasts.
• Puerto Rican Wednesday and no one can take that from me.