Sebek is mean to Silver but secretly cares about him so it’s ok ❌

Silver and Sebek have a very complicated relationship that goes deeper than just your generic tsundere “it’s not like I care about you” trope and has a lot of potential to be an interesting dynamic where they’re not exactly friends but can’t bring themselves to outright hate each other ✅

So I came upon your blog while looking through the asoiaf tag and explored it a bit. Would you please explain to me how are you against Targaryen incest, but find Jonsa fine? I’m genuinely curious, as I’ve just started reading the books (I’m half-way through a storm of swords) and find nothing fine about any form of incest, whether it is or not considered as such in-universe. I also find little to no Jonsa moments. Could you help me? Thank you!

okay so first of all i got sent an ask forever ago about what the appeal of jonsa is and i’ve been working on explaining basically where i see the plot going and why it’s thematically relevant and is2g i’m still actually putting it together it’s just doing that in a middle of a reread is tough bc my ideas are kinda all over the place lmao (just like this ask is about to be sorry!) (also once again, sorry if my tone comes across very weird, i swear i reread like twelve times to make sure i don’t sound too snarky and wasn't just vomitting up a thousand words of nonsense lmao!!).

BUT. Well there’s three points to this: what the characters may feel, what i feel about jonsa, and what i feel about targ incest. so first the characters:

I think it’s important to point out that first cousin marriage (and auncle/nibling marriage, esp if it’s a “half” relation) are not considered true incest in westeros and in many parts of our world. rickard and lyra, ned’s parents, are cousins. joanna and tywin lannister are first cousins. jonnel and sansa and edric and serena are uncle/nieces, and you’ll note that when alys karstark comes to jon for help, he is disgusted that her uncle is trying to steal her inheritance and not that he’s her uncle attempting to marry her. i point this out because not only is there nothing legally stopping a jonsa marriage, the characters themselves may also see it that way (as not incest). and if your next point is “well they grew up thinking they’re siblings” my answer is - yes and? One of the influences on this series is Mervyn Peake, who wrote gothic medieval stories, and both incest and pseudo-incest is very much a big part of gothic stories! A lot of the storylines in this world are dedicated to exploring incest as a force of socialization and romanticism, from Naerys pleading to live “as brother and sister” and Aegon insisting “we already are” to Alysanne’s “Alyssa is meant for Baelon” to Jaime’s “he heard none of it" in the sept. I don’t think it’s that far of a stretch to posit that two characters we have POVs for will fall in love and grapple with what that love says about them, about society, about their role in the world - and in fact, about half of Jon’s most popular ships are between him and a female relative. Sansa makes more sense to me because she’s closer to his age than Arya, has a more troubled relationship with him, is involved in the political aspects of the story just as much as he is, and isn’t likely to immediately start setting people on fire after they meet.

Now as for me, basically - i think both types of incest are the result of socialization + extreme trauma, and I fully expect that if Jonsa goes canon it will have a tragic ending. I think Jonsa takes some of the inherent misogyny of targ incest and plays around with it - Jon having significantly less societal privilege than basically every other Targaryen and what that means for Sansa as an heiress - but just because I think an exploration of that dynamic will be interesting, doesn’t mean I don’t expect it to be rife with problems.

because the problem with incest is the power dynamic ultimately, and you cannot escape that power dynamic bc people don’t exist in a vacuum. For all the Starks have some fucked up skeletons in their closet, Lyanna doesn’t show up in Ned’s bed naked and ask him to stop her betrothal to Robert, does she? This is the fundamental difference between targ incest and Jonsa or even Lannicest; Lannicest is rampant with toxicity from both of those deranged weirdos but they feel entitled to each other's bodies because of their own trauma surrounding their tumultuous childhoods (and probably some normalization of incest from their parents and proximity to Aerys/Rhaella/Rhaegar), but no one is saying "Jaime you are owed Cersei's body" or "Cersei your womb belongs to your brother and your brother alone." So I don't feel the need to sit here and go "Lannicest is toxic" like yeah? Clearly, lmao, these two feel like they are so damaged, and made so special by that damage, that they can only love one another, that's not what anyone would call healthy. I don't think it's necessary to sit here and explain that dynamic has abuse problems; it's right there in the text!

"well what about the power dynamic between jon and sansa?" YES WHAT ABOUT IT. that's the point! i'm interested in how a dynamic that is inherently abusive will play out between two people who were raised to believe some types of incest are okay but not others, who are victims of abuse and societal alienation themselves. because at the same time that i condemn targ incest, there are obviously real feelings and genuine care in these relationships and in these people, because again, people don't exist in a vacuum. daemon backs rhaenyra into this corner and then crucially does not kill any of her children because he realizes that's a step too far, she'd never forgive it, perhaps even because he grew to love them (i mean, Lucerys and Joffrey likely barely remember any other father but Daemon!). maegor is a monster who very specifically never harms rhaena's daughters! aemon is a useless pos but it seems likely he had a hand in raising naerys' son to be better than aegon because he could see the harm he and his brother were doing to naerys even if aemon was too much of a coward to actually stop that harm in any meaningful way! the difference, to me, is that jon will see that this relationship built on trauma and grief may be the only love he and sansa will ever allow themselves to feel but it is not healthy for them, and jon will leave! and sansa will realize she is not the impassive, frozen, detached symbol that the men around her want her to be, but a living, breathing person with her own wants and desires and agency, and will let him go!

Ultimately, while i think romanticizing and sexualizing the taboo is fine and even healthy, for me, there has to be some acknowledgement that you are in fact romanticizing the taboo. This is why the shitty dudes in asoiaf work for me in a way shitty dudes outside of asoiaf don’t usually - my general bitching about parts of the narrative that don’t click for me aside, there’s firm condemnation of the people engaging in these behaviors, from cersei sexually abusing lancel to sandor creeping on sansa. just because the narrative also shows us and wants us to feel empathy for sandor and cersei and why they’ve become bad people doesn’t mean what they’re doing isn’t bad. that’s what i like! i don’t want a story that holds my hand and drags me to the moral nor do i want a story that presents a god awful person who is supposed to be morally upright and not mean for us to dig deeper into them!

(this is why i like the pt but not the st of star wars, if you want an example - for all the prequels are um. flawed. lucas has an overreaching story about the effects of war, slavery, and interpersonal abuse that he’s dedicated to, and we are meant to be horrified by anakin choking padme just as surely as we’re meant to mourn their relationship and love for each other when palpatine gleefully tells anakin she’s dead and ani destroys the room in grief. vs like. what were the sequels even fucking doing man).

So the thing here is that I actually do in fact find Targaryen incest interesting while being morally repugnant as a practice, and I'm positive Jonsa will play around with both the morality of incest and the romanticism of it in a way that I find just as interesting, varied, romantic, and fulfilling as like, the Jaime/Cersei(/Brienne/Tyrion) mess or the Daemon/Rhaenyra/Laena/Harwin debacle! I like incest and I also hate it! I contain multitudes!