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flower-boi16 · 13 hours

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”you want everything to be spelt out to you!” “The show doesn’t need to explicitly spell it out for you!” “You can just infer it!”

This is the exact same defense I always get whenever I argue with Viv fans when I criticize Viv’s piss-poor writing. And the thing is this IS true; shows don't need to explicitly spell things out to the audience, as there are conclusions that the viewer can draw on their own without having to be explicitly told by the text, usually by the text giving direct hints to that explanation.

The problem is that Viv fans' definition of inferring isn't "drawing conclusions on our own with direct explicit hints given from the text that is the canon explanation the story wants you to come to" it's "making shit up to try and explain and/or justify Viv's terrible writing".

There are three times where I got this defense when arguing with HH/HB fans all three times I lost several brain cells in the process.

The first time was in a discord server where I posted an HB episode tier list and put Truth Seekers in C tier (the mediocre one). One of users commented on this and I explained my reasoning why I thought the episode was meh. One of these reasons was the plot hole of why the Dhorks didn't send the footage they already had to the government.

The user then countered that with "how do you know didn't send that old footage?". Well, the reason why I know that is because the episode gives no actual indication that they sent it, and when I said that the user countered that with "because there was also no indication that they didn't send the footage". And then after that the argument spiraled into both of us repeating the same counterarguments over and over again.

The user says that it's logical for the audience to assume they sent the footage because it's the logical thing to do cuz why would they keep it. Which, ok, you can assume that they did send the footage but there's no indication of that within the story. This does not change the fact that this is an unanswered question that the story itself didn't answer, did they or did they not send the footage?

That's a pretty important question to answer and the show can't just leave it there. And then the user tells me "you don't need to be told, Its in your face how they act". There is no way to infer if they did send the footage because the story gives a SINGLE hint that they do, and the story DOES need to say if it they sent it or not.

This is not inferring. This is making shit up to explain Viv's writing for her. Did they or did they not send the footage? This is a big question that the episode does not answer even though this is a major plot hole and it can't just leave it hanging there for fans to just guess. The episode gave no indication that they sent the footage, so I have no reason to believe that they did. You can't infer ANYTHING from this.

This explanation is simply something made up, not a conclusion that's given direct hints from the show. If the next never said it happened, it did not fucking happen. This assumption is literally just headcanon.

The next argument was from an ask I got calling me media literate for my point about how fans shouldn't have to create fan theories to explain Viv's writing for her and Viv should explain her world-building herself. It stated that the explanation for why sinners are confined to the pride ring (making the exterminations more efficient/easier) is the clear explanation that the show doesn't have to spell out because 1) The show says that there are annual exterminations which aren't viable without the confinement and 2) Lucifer gets control over which ring his subjects go to.

Both of these explanations suck, here's why.

The exterminations simply being there does not explain the confinement. Also, this explanation doesn't work to begin with as I've talked about before

Lucifer having control over where he sends his subjects to doesn't inherently explain why he sends them to the pride ring specifically.

The "sinners are confined to the pride ring to make exterminations easier" was a fan theory created by the fans to explain this because the show itself didn't bother giving an answer. That's bad world-building.

The show itself needs to explain these things rather than having fans create explanations for it. There isn't any way to infer that because the show never once gives any hints that this is the reason. And, like I said before, the explanation doesn't even work anyway.

There is no way to infer why the sinners are confined to the pride ring at all, this explanation is once again a headcanon. But when I pointed this out, the anon said that I just want everything spelled out for me.

The third and final instance of this is with our good ol friend truffhollowell. Ya know, the person who's been going around on Hazbin critical posts spouting nothing but complete bullshit.

This argument was under this post about why Vaggie's turn around made 0 sense. In the post truff tried countering my argument with "uuuuh, actually, not all murderers are heartless monsters!" even though that is explicitly what the exorcists are shown to be.

They then go around and say that Vaggie could've been thinking "how could a child end up in hell" and she realizes Heaven's corrupt systems and develops her own identity (at least that's what I remember them saying since they deleted all of their replies once they lost the argument lmao)....even though there is NO indication within the show that this is what's happening.

This is not inferring. This is just a headcanon. But truff says that you CAN infer it because...child murder is bad...

...umm...WHY TF WOULD THE EXORCISTS GIVE A SHIT IF CHILD MURDER WAS BAD IF THAT CHILD IS A FUCKING SINNER????? And THEN they hit me with that same fucking claim of "oh, you want shows to spell things out for you!".

Ya, well, guess what, I can't infer any of this because that's not what's happening. This is not what's happening in the scene, this is just a headcanon truff made up.

There's more to their arguments than just that but that was the general point they were making.

I'm so sick of always getting this stupid-ass defense because NO, I DON'T want everything spelled out for me, I want things to actually make sense. I'm looking at specifically what the text itself is saying, the information that it gives out and what's happening within the show.

Not your headcanon you made up to explain Viv's terrible writing. None of these explanations are people infering things based on direct evidence from the show. They are just headcanons/theories with nothing in the text hinting towards it.

So, to anyone who is going to give me the "you can just infer it yourself!" excuse to defend these shows whenever I criticize them...

Shut the fuck up.

#vivziepop critical #hazbin hotel critical #helluva boss critical #vivziepop criticism #helluva boss criticism #hazbin hotel criticism #arguing with viv fans is a headache inducing nightmare #sorry #I just wanted to vent about this #because it's SO FUCKING ANNOYING getting this same argument over and over again whenever I complain about Viv's shit writting

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codenamesazanka · 2 days

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I'm sorry, I'm fixated on The Walk because it has seemed like such a pivotal point in Shigaraki's life, and in the story. And then when it finally came time for Deku to save Shigaraki/Tenko... it gets relegated to two measly panels.

In Chapter 69, Shigaraki reveals his resentment of basically the entire world for being so carefree when they know, logically, someone is out there suffering - "someone, somewhere...is off killing people, for whatever reason... these fools keep smiling and laughing... living their lives."

Later, building on this idea, he realizes - and states out loud to Deku - that All Might annoys him because All Might has created a false sense of peace. Plus, All Might himself smiles so bright and cheerful, as if he's invincible, as if he can and has saved everyone: "The reason these fools can smile and live their lives... is cuz All Might's always got that grin on this face... Smiling wide, as if to say... There's no one he can't save!!"

Paired with a flashback of a severed hand, much like the ones Shigaraki wears, the implication is clear: Shigaraki resents how no one came to save him when he had a quirk accident that killed his dad/family; moreover, specifically, he seems to hate the bystander effect - that tragedy and suffering can happen but the people around such incidents can just not give a single crap. There are people in trouble, but the majority of the world doesn't bother to help, because they think Heroes will take care of it - All Might, especially, has made them feel like it's just not their problem.

This was before Shigaraki regained his memories, but his life since the amnesia hasn't really disproven any of that. He was picked up by AFO, a Villain, first of all; but he would later create the League, all members of who have clearly suffered from something and was never saved - not by Heroes, but also not by people who are supposed to protect them, like parents and family, and not by their fellow humans.

There's a reason Shigaraki targeted Bakugou to kidnap and recruit - he saw someone who seemed to be restricted and suppressed, literally bound and gagged on live television, a thing allowed and even awkwardly laughed at by the people around him. All Might was smiling as he presented a medal to the clearly upset boy. And so he thought Bakugou would understand.

When Shigaraki remembers his past, his memories also don't disprove the bystander effect and his hatred of it either. In the house his father built, everyone saw he was suffering, but did nothing. They never stepped in to stop Kotarou’s harsh punishments; in fact, they only ever come to him in the aftermath to try to coax him to stop crying - essentially telling Tenko that hey, they aren't going to stop the actual problem (Kotarou), but they will try to make Tenko accept it. As if it's not their problem, but rather Tenko's. Tenko says that all he needed was just to hear a word of encouragement from them, but they couldn't even give him that.

All this passivity in the family eventually leads to the moment when Kotarou slaps Tenko hard - twice! - and yet his mom and grandparents only stood by and watched. (Afterwards, they apparently also allowed Tenko to be forced to stay outside, crying, until nightfall.)

Then, of course, is The Walk.

Dozens of people saw a clearly-distressed lost child walk past them, and did nothing. Tenko at that moment is tragedy and suffering made manifest - he's a tiny little boy, alone, scared into silence, bloodstained, barefoot on concrete in a city. He's not hidden away or in some unknown corner of the shadowy edges of society - he's there in front of everyone, in broad daylight.

And no one bothers to give a crap. Or, even if they do, briefly feeling troubled at the sight, they look away. The one lady who did try to help ends up deciding this was above her pay grade and explicitly states never mind, Heroes will take care of it. Everyone at the scene feels it's not their problem.

(And the thing is - Tenko knew he deserved to be saved. There's one line that always stuck out to me: "I thought maybe the reason no one helped me was because I was being punished for killing my family."

Tenko knew he did something bad, he was feeling immense guilt, so much that he was rendered mute, but he wasn't expecting to be punished then and there - he hadn't written himself off. Not being helped wasn't a foregone conclusion yet. He killed his family, but he wanted help - he knew he should be helped. Basically, it wasn't immediately, "I did something bad, so of course a Hero won't be here, now I need to run away and hide" - it was "[I did something bad, but] somebody... anybody, just me tell [what to do]. Someone help me." The idea that he deserved being ignored because of what he did seemed to have only come afterwards.

This is why, I believe, in Chapter 365, Inner Tenko thought, "I wasn't broken back then... but it's not like anybody reached out a helping hand to me. It's not like anybody even looked at me."

Two of the flashbacks are scenes from after he did a Bad Thing - Hana running away after he killed their dog; the old lady turning away, after he wandered into the city post-massacre. He did a Bad Thing, but "I wasn't broken back then..."

There's also the flashbacks of the family pre-massacre. Scenes of his grandparents trying to pacify him, of his mom looking sad, of Kotarou being angry with him - all likely because Tenko was in trouble for talking about Heroes again, which was against the household rules, but wasn't/shouldn't be a strike against him. He was restricted and suppressed and couldn't fit in with the family, but "I wasn't broken back then..."

All those people in his family, on the streets - none of them ever helped.)

The Walk is the ultimate embodiment of his long and ongoing issue of Heroes and regular people doing shit nothing. It's the exact complaint Shigaraki was giving in Chapter 69. It's completely damning.

This is what Shigaraki means when he says "everything I've witnessed..." in Jaku in Chapter 281 (and again in Chapter 379). He's seen it all - how there's all this pain, but Heroes have not done anything about it. And because Heroes are pillars of the community - because Heroes are civil servants, essentially representative of the governing system - the regular masses of citizens both follow their example while also becoming complacent. Now they just smile and laugh, living their lives, as if Heroes will and should take care of everything and all will be and is fine.

Early on, Shigaraki put most of the blame on Heroes and so focused most of his plots on them - the USJ attack and Camp Raid were on Hero students - but he very much disliked the civilians and their bystander apathy too, and was already starting to make plans to destroy the system that enabled that. It’s remembering the Shimura Household Dysfunction and The Walk - the lack of help, the rejection, all civilians that passed him by - that really solidifies his hatred and conviction, causing him to fully embrace destruction - his attacks post MVA doesn't target just Heroes, but everything and basically everyone.

AND YET. Barely any of this shows up when Deku comes to save Tenko in Chapter 418.

In fact, it starts in Chapter 417, when Nana and Deku intervene in Kotarou's slapping of Tenko. The rest of the family is noticeably absent. The only thing Deku and Nana needed to do was stop Kotarou. That Tenko also had an issue with how the family kept taking Kotarou's side and abiding by the abuse? Not relevant anymore, I guess.

(Also, Tenko actually does believe he's broken, been broken from the start for being born with Decay. He even wonders why Deku would come help him. Somehow "I wasn't broken back then... but it's not like anyone even looked at me," has become "I'm broken and who could ever look at me given the way I am?" Note additionally that Deku doesn't actually discourage this notion. He only says "Well, I'm here to take your hand and give you peace.")

Meanwhile, The Walk is no longer part of Tenko's origin - or at least, not significant enough to warrant a Memory Environment. Yes, it's true that stopping and saving Tenko at The Massacre means Tenko wouldn't go on to walk The Walk, and I suppose you can argue that technically the issue of bystander effect has been solved since someone did finally show up to help. Deku didn't have to help, but he did. He made it his problem to figure out why Shigaraki seemed so sad inside, and he reached out a hand.

But like. The Walk is still a thing that happened? It's still a problem? All those people still ignored a five year old? Deku saving Tenko doesn't mean the old lady suddenly gained a backbone and conscience to not walk away. In fact, it just makes it even more 'not her problem' because after all, a Hero did show up! She did exactly what she was supposed to do - nothing.

It’s just not addressed. To quote @stillness-in-green, “Shigaraki gets way more dangerous to the common civilian after he gets his memories back, and it's a real crock that the story doesn't address that specific turn and what causes it, instead retrenching to "The Slap Bad; AFO Bad.””

I don't like Deku much, and I probably would've rolled my eyes at it, but I did really think Deku would get to be at the memory of The Walk, and he was see all these civilians ignoring Tenko, and he would be gutted and horrified, and maybe he’ll hear what the old lady say about “the police or a hero or somebody will help” as she leaves, and he’ll think something like ‘that's right, a Hero should be helping… but that doesn't mean all you civilians can't even ask if Tenko’s okay and walk him to a police box’, and he would chase after Tenko to save him, and maybe even say something like ‘What you said at Jaku about civilians being coddled. I know it too well that they didn’t want to get dirty. They're trying to support Heroes better now, but they should also support each other. We should all help each other. Let’s change things. I’m here now.’ Because it would make sense and provide a conclusion to this whole thing???

But no. Shigaraki wants to destroy because Tenko was sad he was born with an evil quirk and because of that he doesn't know how to love himself and so the source of the problem ultimately lies with himself. Deku is here to validate his existence so Tenko can feel better that someone accepts him so he can learn to love himself and stop all this nonsense. Except wait it turns out AFO gave him Decay and also turns out AFO manipulated his life since even before his conception so who knows what's even real anymore. Maybe the people on the streets really wanted to help Tenko but AFO made a gas leak fill the city with Asshole Gas and so no one helped and Shigaraki has been operating under a gaslit delusion for the past 15 years and his grievance against bystander apathy is completely invalid. Bummer.

The series hasn't ended yet, and it's possible that the Walk will still be addressed. I've seen it theorized that civilians will show up to help stop AFO and finally save Shigaraki/Tenko like he had wanted all those people on the streets to do all those years ago.

However, without the problem explicitly stated or even known - Deku never sees the family passivity, and he seems to have only caught glimpses of The Walk (and of course has no reaction/introspection/opinion on it) - this feels unlikely. Plus, the recent chapter hasn't filled me with hope or inspiration. The best the civilian could do was offer an All Might t-shirt. That's not exactly "I won't assume a Hero will take care of it and I'll take action myself"; it's more "I'll trust in Heroes even more to take care of the problem." I know that's not exactly fair, in that fighting AFO and helping a lost child are problems of very different magnitudes. But the fact the story hasn't given the civilians an opportunity to ‘redeem’ themselves, so to speak, in the latter case kinda proves my point, I think.

So far, the story seems to think that Shigaraki's issue with passivity and complacency is actually irrelevant. Or has been solved by Deku. Who took on the immense task of saving Shigaraki because he possesses a drive to save others that eclipses all common understanding. So Deku is special, and thank god someone so special existed to save Shigaraki. Because otherwise, Shigaraki wouldn't have been saved. Due to the majority of people being passive and complacent. Which isn't a thing that needs to be dealt with.

(Or, I guess you can say that it was All For One who planted the hatred of bystander effect into Shigaraki/Tenko (if he didn't somehow manipulate the people on the streets (and the Shimura family, previously) into ignoring Tenko), since he did say “Everyone just passed by, pretending not to see, thinking some Hero would save the day. Who decided to make the world this way?” when he first found Tenko. So even that hatred and grudge isn't ‘true’ and we can dismiss it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

#nalslastworkingbraincell #very long rant #sorry

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