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weirwoodking · 3 years

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who do you think will be on the throne at the end? is there a chance it will be a woman? do you agree with the theory that bran will be king in the north bc he symbolizes winterfell? idk if i see dany on the throne bc i don't feel like she belongs in westeros, i think she would be better off with a throne on the other side of the narrow sea but i really don't know what i'm saying

It’s very hard to make predictions for ADOS, because we don’t have TWOW yet. So much can change about the story and the characters in one book, thematically and narratively. Think of how much the plot was influenced by just that final Bran chapter in ADWD.

But, here I go anyway.

My short answer is: no one. (And no, I don’t mean Arya)

Let’s get into it.

Part 1: How the Show Tainted Everyone’s Brains

Obviously, a lot of people care about the Iron Throne plot. Sometimes too much. I do believe that this is mostly because of how much the HBO show changed everything about the story to make the Iron Throne seem like it was more important than anything else. Like promotional posters of all the actors each sitting on the throne, the name of the series itself being changed to “Game of Thrones”, actors getting asked in every interview “who do you think should get the Iron Throne?” as if it’s the last cupcake at a birthday party that everyone’s fighting over, the final episode was titled “The Iron Throne”. The marketing for everything was “it’s the fight for the Throne!” up through the eighth season. It made the object itself become a huge pop culture symbol.

It almost felt like the show was trying to make it seem like the goal of the Night King (a character not in the books) was to sit on the Iron Throne! The show portrayed it as if the Others were just a little distraction that needed to be dealt with so the characters could get back to arguing over the Porcupine Chair. However, in ASOIAF, it’s the exact opposite. The Porcupine Chair is what’s distracting the characters from the real conflict, the Others.

It’s almost comical how that has somewhat transferred over into the fandom, the “game of thrones” is what’s keeping everyone from focusing on what really matters, the “song of ice and fire”.

Part 2: GRRM’s Quote

It wasn't easy for me. I didn't want to give away my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and "hold the door", and Stannis' decision to burn his daughter. We didn't get to everybody by any means.

-George R.R. Martin

So, he “told them who would be on the Iron Throne”. Something important about this quote is that he doesn’t say who. And, of course, the Iron Throne gets destroyed at the end of the show anyway. Show!Bran doesn’t really “end up on the Iron Throne”. Show!Dany does. George never said that who “ends up” on it in the books is who ends up on it in the show. He’s said that the Shireen thing and the Hodor thing will “happen very differently” in the books anyway. And, of course, another major part of that quote is “every character has a different end”.

I don’t think that who sits the Iron Throne last is necessarily going to be the ruler of Westeros at the end. For example, Cersei (or Aegon) may be the last person to sit the Iron Throne. Or even Euron (however, even though his goal is to rule post-apocalyptic Westeros as a god from the Iron Throne, I don’t think he’ll actually get there). If wildfire is hot enough to melt iron, I could see the throne being destroyed during whatever fiery shenanigans go down with Cersei and JonCon in TWOW. I think it would be fitting for the fight over the throne to end in the next book. ‘Cause the winds of winter are coming, baby, and it’s gonna be time to start dreaming of spring.

Part 3: The Weirwood King

The idea/theory of Bran becoming King has been around for a long time, long before the HBO show even started airing. This is because of the Celtic myth of King Brân the Blessed, whose name means “Blessed Crow” or “Blessed Raven” in Welsh. Other than the obvious connection with the name, Brân the Blessed’s story involves a magic cauldron that can bring the dead back to life.

In the myth, Brân’s head is cut off and continues talking (think of how Bran’s most powerful aspect is the magical powers of his mind), because in Celtic mythology the head is believed to be where the soul is.

Celts had a reputation as head hunters. According to Paul Jacobsthal, "Amongst the Celts the human head was venerated above all else, since the head was to the Celt the soul, centre of the emotions as well as of life itself, a symbol of divinity and of the powers of the otherworld." (source)

Catch that? “Otherworld”. There is another myth (Irish, specifically) called the Voyage of Bran, in which the title character goes on a quest to the Otherworld. The Otherworld is a supernatural realm in Celtic mythology. It is also where the sidhe (a.k.a. aos sí) live. Remember, the sidhe are what George has said the Others are inspired by. In Irish mythology, the Otherworld is called Tír na nÓg, Mag Mell and Emain Ablach, in Welsh mythology it’s called Annwn, and in Arthurian legend it’s called Avalon. Fun fact, “Avalon” was the title of the novel George was writing when he had suddenly had the idea of a scene in which a young boy and his brothers see a beheading and then find a litter of direwolf pups in the snow. And so ASOIAF happened.

I’ll leave that there, and try not to go down the great big rabbit-hole of Celtic (and other cultures) mythology connections in ASOIAF. The takeaway is: ASOIAF has been influenced by these myths.

I do believe that Bran is going to be King. Not just because of his ties to this mythology, but also because of symbolism in his own story. The most notable one being…

Under the hill, the broken boy sat upon a weirwood throne, listening to whispers in the dark as ravens walked up and down his arms.

[...]

The singers made Bran a throne of his own, like the one Lord Brynden sat, white weirwood flecked with red, dead branches woven through living roots.

[...]

His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child.

- Bran III, A Dance with Dragons

Bran is also the only one of the Stark kids who still thinks of himself as royalty:

What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins.

- Bran III, A Dance with Dragons

Bran is the heir to Winterfell. It doesn’t matter if Robb named Jon his heir in his will, the will was written under the pretense that Bran and Rickon were dead.

However, Bran doesn’t have any connection to the Iron Throne. It’s far more likely that he would sit on a weirwood throne, because of, y’know, everything about his story. So, if Bran was King of the Seven Kingdoms, I don’t think it would be on the Pincushion Stool.

If Bran is king of the realm, I do think there would still be a separate Lord/Lady of Winterfell, but I do think that there’s a possibility of a Pevensie siblings ending, where all the Stark kids would rule together as the Lords and Ladies and Winterfell.

Something that I’ve never really seen talked about regarding the idea of Bran becoming King of the Seven Kingdoms is the religious differences between the North and the southern regions of Westeros. Of course, the show didn’t deal with this at all. For fuck’s sake, they had Cersei blow up the Westerosi verison of the Vatican and face no backlash. It was so laughably absurd how Show!Cersei’s destructive reign was shown to have like… zero impact on the Seven Kingdoms.

In short, I’m not too sure that the Kingdom who is majority Faith of the Seven worshippers would react too well to a weirwood-tree-Old-Gods-warg-wizard-king. I mean, when Janos Slynt finds out Jon is a warg he calls him a “thing”, a “creature”, and a “beastling that is not fit to live”, and wanted to execute him not just for being a turncloak but for being a warg as well. And Jojen warns Bran of these things, saying that his own folk may want to kill him if they know what he is.

But… all of that anti-magic attitude might not matter after night falls.

Part 4: Winter is Coming

I believe that the Long Night is going to be very devastating for the Seven Kingdoms.

Martin is a big believer in making things have meaningful, permanent consequences in his stories. I don’t think that an apocalyptic event like the Long Night is something that’s just gonna get dealt with in a quick snap and have no lasting effect.

A lot of people are going to die. I don’t mean main characters, I mean people that would not survive a normal winter and sure as hell won’t be prepared for this one. Westeros’s food stores have been severely depleted by the War of the Five Kings, and we’ve been told multiple times in the text (particularly AFFC and ADWD) that feeding people during this winter is going to be extremely hard.

Besides that… the whole, uh, invasion of the eldritch ice beings thing might have a bit of an impact on the realm.

I won’t go into depth about how the Seven Kingdoms will be affected by the Long Night, ‘cause we really have no idea. But, however it all goes down, I do think it will have lasting changes for the people of Westeros. The impact that it leaves may make the concept of Bran being a wizard-king more acceptable. “Oh, well we’ve just seen zombies and winter elves, so what’s too surprising about a magical greenseer warg king?” I think that Westerosi culture becoming more aware and accepting of the existence of magic is the only way that Bran could become the king of the whole realm. The Westeros at the end of the series is not going to be the place that it was at the beginning.

Part 5: Dany: A Home, Not a Throne

To sum up my thoughts on our dragon girl, I don’t think Dany will end up on the Spiky Toilet. I don’t want Dany to be on the Spiky Toilet.

Now, my personal speculation (which a lot of people disagree with, which is fine) is that Dany will never see King’s Landing before the Long Night. I personally don’t think that Dany will ever meet Aegon or Cersei. I don’t see there being enough time in the story for that. Yes, GRRM said that there will be a second Dance of the Dragons, but he also said that the second Dance does not have to involve Dany. He may have originally planned for it to be Aegon and Dany, but probably not once the Meereenese Knot happened.

The Meereenese Knot is what Dany’s ADWD plot is referred to as. GRRM did not intend for Dany to stay in Meereen as long as she has, but because of his “gardener” style of writing, that’s where the story led him. GRRM has said that one of the hardest parts of writing the Meereen plotline (which involves Dany, Barristan, Quentyn, Tyrion, and Victarion) is trying to find a way to cut the plot knot he accidentally got himself stuck in. He has said that Tyrion and Dany will meet towards the end of TWOW, which means that Dany will most likely be spending a large portion of her story with the Dothraki. That part is a completely blank page, but I believe that Dany will meet Tyrion possibly ¾ of the way into the book, and sail for Westeros at the end.

I won’t write a full meta about this here (because that’s not what this post is about), but to summarize my prediction: Aegon VS Cersei is going to be the battle in King’s Landing, a battle which will destroy the city. Dany (who has already rejected sailing for the Throne multiple times) will still be stuck in Essos, dealing with everything she’s still got going on, and will sail for Westeros at the end. Not for the Throne, but to go North for the real fight (remember that Marwyn is also on his way to Meereen to tell Dany that they need her).

Because Dany's purpose is not to fight for the Iron Throne, it’s to fight the Others. Dany (fire, light, and life) VS the Others (ice, darkness, and death) is the main thing the title refers to:

“Well of course the two outlying ones, the things that are going on north of the Wall and Daenerys Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons are of course the Ice and Fire of the title, the Song of Ice and Fire.”

- George R.R. Martin, 2016

One of the most important excerpts that shows us where Dany’s story is headed is this:

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

- Daenerys III, A Storm a Swords

Dany has a short prophetic “this is what I was meant to do” dream. Dany could possibly have more dreams about the Others in TWOW, visions that will make what Marwyn has to tell her more believable. It’s not like that dream was the only one Dany has had that alludes to the winter threat, Dany has had visions about this since book one:

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

- Dany IX, A Game of Thrones

Anyway, there’s just a lot more foreshadowing in the plot that this is what Dany is meant to do. I think adding in another conflict into her story once she leaves Meereen would make the story feel bloated and would severely fuck up the pacing.

I don’t think Dany will ever see the Iron Throne. The themes of her story have never been about her wanting the Iron Throne for what it is, but for what it represents to her. It represents the possibility of a home and of feeling safe for the first time in her life, what Dany truly wants. I think that it’s absolutely fine if Dany never sees the Throne or sits on it, and that it makes more sense for her narrative arc if she discovers that she can find a home somewhere else, not necessarily where she thought it would be.

Part 6: Final Thoughts

So, in conclusion, I don’t really give a shit who ends up placing their ass on the Forbidden Laz-E-Boy, I care about the War for the Dawn. I care about seeing the characters I’ve followed for the past five books coming together to fight the real conflict of A Song of Ice and Fire. Also, even if we do get a Scouring of the Shire-type post-climax for ASOIAF, it doesn’t matter. People don’t see the Scouring of the Shire as the climax of Lord of the Rings, they see the climax as Aragorn leading the forces of good against the forces of evil and Frodo and Sam throwing the One Ring into Mount Doom. Whatever ending resolution comes after the climax of ASOIAF, it doesn’t change what the climax is.

"Do you think your brother's war is more important than ours?" the old man barked.

Jon chewed his lip. The raven flapped its wings at him. "War, war, war, war," it sang.

"It's not," Mormont told him. "Gods save us, boy, you're not blind and you're not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?"

"No." Jon had not thought of it that way.

- Jon IX, A Game of Thrones

TL;DR:

My prediction: Cersei will be the last person to sit the Iron Throne, which will be destroyed in the Wildfire of King’s Landing. After the Long Night devastates the Seven Kingdoms, Bran will become the King of this new Westeros that has been majorly affected by the return of magic. Also, it would be real nice if Dany found her red door.

God I hope my rambling made sense

#sorry that this took me over a week to answer #ask #anon #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #long post

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nbrook29 · 3 years

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Sobbe, 6: Teary kiss🥺

Another anon: 1!!

As always, apologies for the long post. Until someone shares the secret with me on how to make the read more thingy work, this is how it’s going to be :(

Again, I don’t know how to write plotless prompts, hence -->

based on But do you REALLY want the K?

Teary kiss + passionate kiss

***

Robbe lets out another shaky breath trying to gain control over his emotions.

There are people running back and forth next to them, yelling at their kids and dragging heavy suitcases on the tiled floor, rushing to get to their gate on time and yet it feels like the two of them are the only ones existing, foreheads resting against each other, hands reassuringly stroking bony hips and arms looped behind necks holding on for dear life.

They’ve been standing like this for a while, Sander swaying them a little as if to soothe the pain, both of them refusing to let go, not yet, not until that final call is announced.

It all still feels so surreal.

He knew it was coming, obviously, but he naively thought that he managed to prepare himself for this.

But now, when he’s faced with the cold interior of the airport at the early hour, gate number 5 looming over just around the corner, reality finally sinks in.

Five months apart.

He’s not sure how his heart is supposed to survive it.

When Sander burst into his bedroom that fateful Wednesday evening, elation in his eyes, talking a mile a minute about his project winning a scholarship, Robbe pulled him on his bed next to himself, placing congratulatory kisses all over his laughing face, calling him “His Artist” a bit teasingly but also with clear adoration easily detectable in his voice.

Once they calmed down a bit and rearranged their bodies to lie facing each other, the wide smile on Sander’s face started to slip, his hand reaching to touch Robbe’s cheek, thumb stroking under his eye as he opened and closed his mouth several times before uttering words that made Robbe’s smile slip as well.

Columbia University, New York City, five months

And then, he added in a small voice, “I don’t know what to do, Robbe.”

The selfish part of him instantly screamed at him to convince Sander, to beg him to stay, to not leave him. Not for five fucking months.

Robbe only needed five seconds to kill that thought and tell it to shut the fuck up.

His boyfriend lied there, next to him, licking his lips nervously, looking so lost and searching for an answer in his eyes, and Robbe could see he was moments away from declaring that nope, no way, he wasn’t going anywhere.

And that was absolutely unacceptable.

Instead of saying anything, he closed the distance between them and captured his mouth in a searing kiss, hoping it conveyed that he was one hundred percent on board with the plan.

When they broke apart, he shot him a beaming smile. “I can’t wait for you to send me photos of New York street art.”

Sander looked at him with wonder in his eyes, a little unsure if he actually meant it.

“Will you really wait for me for that long?”

“You know I’ll wait for you forever.”

It’s ironic that it was Robbe who spent the last two months reassuring Sander about the trip, squashing any doubt related to their relationship that arose, convincing him that he’s going to be okay left behind. That they are going to be okay.

It’s not that big of a deal, right? Robbe was about to start college anyway, so many exciting times were coming his way. Of course he’s going to wait. He’s going to enjoy his college experience at a film school and Sander is going to conquer New York City, living his best american life, video chatting with him everyday to tell him what he’s been up to. Then, he’s going to come back and they’re finally going to rent a place together. A perfect plan.

So yeah, it’s ironic. It’s ironic because it’s actually Robbe who is a mess now.

The thought of separation hurts so badly but Sander getting a chance to go to New York to study visual arts at fucking Columbia and rejecting the offer for Robbe and their relationship has been out of the question from the start. Robbe would never forgive himself for taking that away from him.

It’s the center of the art world. He needs to go there. If he had decided not to, Robbe would have packed him and pushed him through the plane entrance himself.

“You’re breaking my heart, baby,” Sander whispers in a shaky voice as his fingers catch a runaway tear on Robbe’s cheek.

Robbe can see that Sander is trying to be strong for both of them, as always taking care of him and his needs first and Robbe loves him so much for that that his heart is almost bursting.

But he also doesn’t want Sander to feel guilty or torn over this even for a second. This is supposed to be an adventure of a lifetime. He can’t take this away from him.

“I’m gonna be okay, don’t worry about me.” He shoots him a smile that he hopes looks convincing.

“I hate the thought of leaving you. Not being able to kiss you,” Sander connects their lips as if for emphasis, and the kiss tastes of salt, making Robbe realize that he’s not the only one getting overwhelmed.

Their bubble is brutally burst when the final call to board for Sander’s flight is announced over the speaker.

Robbe can feel his entire body getting filled with desperation all at once at the loud voice but before he can do anything Sander pulls him even closer and kisses him, burying his fingers in his curls. The kiss is bruising from the start, frantic as Sander sweeps his tongue in deeper and Robbe makes sure he gives as good as he gets, kissing him thoroughly, hands clinging to the lapels of his leather jacket.

It doesn’t matter that they already had their main goodbye last night. That they spent all those hours lost in each other, learning each other’s body anew, alternating between sweet and loving, and fast and passionate but not any less loving. It doesn’t matter that their bodies will be marked with mouth-shaped bruises and light scratches for days. It doesn’t matter that Robbe can still feel him.

It doesn’t matter because it wasn’t enough. It will never be enough.

It’s a good thing no one pays them any attention, everyone too busy with their own goodbyes and patting their chest all the time to make sure they have their passport, because the voice in the back of Robbe’s head tells him it’s probably not the most appropriate place for this kind of kissing.

It’s almost impossible for them to stop, to break apart but they don’t have a choice as the line to the gate keeps shortening.

“I’ll try to come home for Christmas, I promise,” Sander whispers into his mouth in between the kisses. “I love you so much.”

“I love you too.”

“You know, I left you my beige sweater so you don’t miss me too much.” Robbe’s laugh sounds teary, his body already mourning the loss of contact when Sander puts some distance between them, bending to grab his carry-on bag before letting out a miserable sigh.

“I have to go.”

The fingers of their right hands are still entwined though, neither of them strong enough to break the touch for good. It reminds Robbe of that cloudy afternoon in front of Sander’s school where the boy graciously granted him a second chance for which he still has been grateful every day.

In the end, Sander is the one to let go first but he only does it to then cup his cheeks with both hands and place the sweetest kiss on his lips Robbe has ever gotten.

Then it’s really time to go.

Robbe forces himself to keep the smile on throughout the entire process of boarding, twisting his fingers to keep the emotions at bay. Sander barely pays any attention to the flight attendant in front of him as he hands in his passport absentmindedly, his eyes flying over Robbe’s face as if he’s trying to memorize every single detail from afar, in case he somehow missed something during all those times before.

Once he’s all clear and the woman starts checking on the last passenger, Robbe knows it’s time.

So he watches, gnawing on his bottom lip with hot tears threatening to spill any second now. He watches as the love of his life hovers a bit longer next to the gate, blowing him that last kiss, mouthing “I love you, Robin” with glassy eyes of his own before turning around and disappearing in the long jet bridge.

It is only then that Robbe allows himself to break down completely.

***

Shoutout to @painfully-oblivious @dagcutie and @gele-gordijnen for helping me with figuring out Sander’s major when my brain decided to do me dirty <3

#wtfock

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voldemorthatesnose96 · 4 years

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An AU which Broerrs think Robbe is cheating on Sander because none of them knows about him getting a haircut and it’s actually a brunette😂it’s based on this ask I got from an anon, in case most of you didn’t know.

I’m sorry if it’s not as funny as you think, but I’m trying to make it as funny as possible :’)

There’ll be 2 parts! Hopefully I’ll make it tomorrow and post it too!🌝🌝🌝enjoy!

“Kill me. I’m fucking sleepy right now!” Moyo grunts while looking worn out. He completely forgets that today is the first day of school after... well... you know. And because of that, he was nearly missed the morning bus.

He and his two bestfriends—Jens and Aaron—are currently waiting for Robbe at the usual place. It’s very weird to see how the city and almost everything are slowly going back to normal, even though their lives are pretty much the same. Seeing the crowd and obviously, no social-distancing kind of making each of them baffled. Anyway, it’s been almost twenty minutes since they arrived and waiting for Robbe but as far as the eyes can’t see, there’s no sight of his usual brown jacket coming through the school gate.

Moyo lets out an impatient sigh, “are we even sure he’s gonna come up at all?”

“Yeah, what if he ends up still in Sander’s bed? Or Sander in his bed? Which one is more likely?” Aaron adds, looking back and forth between his other friends.

“Both of you shut up,” says Jens as he rolls his eyes. But just before he wants to say something again, his eyes has fixated to one of the most shocking things that he’s ever seen. He even makes the exact same face when he saw Robbe’s gigantic mural a year ago. “What the...”

Both Moyo and Aaron are following where Jens is looking at and mutters the same word too. If someone else ever tells them what’s going on, sure as hell they won’t believe in it; but fuck, IT IS REAL! Maybe this is how it feels to get struck by lightning. The three of them clearly sees Robbe is standing near the entrance, making out with a guy who’s CLEARLY isn’t Sander—because this guy has a really short, brunette hair, wearing blue cotton jacket and black Converse. In short, something that is SO not Sander Driesen. Both of them are looking too cozy with each other, completely ignoring that they’re on public space right now and keep on doing what they’re doing.

“Is he...” Aaron whispers in shock.

“Cheating?” Jens continues.

“No fucking way, man!” Moyo’s eyes widening. He quickly takes out his phone and turn his camera on.

“What are you doing?”

“Recording them, of course. Sander needs to see this!”

“Dude, it’s not a good idea.” Jens replies, but he leans closer to Moyo to see how he records their cheating-friend, who’s now whispering something into the stranger’s ear and smirks a little bit.

“I mean, Sander is incredibly good looking. Why would Robbe cheating with someone... brunette?” Aaron shakes his head in confusion. Muttering the words to more himself.

Jens raises his brows, “what’s wrong with brunettes? I’m a brunette, in case you’re suddenly going blind.” He demands in a rather offended tone.

Aaron just gives his friend a shrug, but his face is somewhat looking rather sad and disappointed.

“Okay, done!” Moyo eagerly says, putting his phone back in his pocket. “Now let’s take another way to the building. We can’t let Robbe sees us!”

“What will you do with the video then?” Jens asks, can’t help himself this time. What can he do, anyway? Being curious is one of his trait, and sometimes he knows more than he should.

“Show it to Sander, of course. What else?”

“You think he’ll believe us? What if we make him sad? What if we make them separated?”

Jens and Moyo turns their gaze to the worried-looking Aaron. They want to laugh at their friend’s expression at first, but seeing that he’s truly worried, Both of them hold it back.

The taller boy stops his step, puts his hands on Aaron’s shoulders; like a father who’s trying to console his son after such tragedy.

“It’s hard but we must do this! Robbe is guilty about this, and the truth must get out. If you don’t want to do it, it’s okay—Moyo and I can go instead.”

Aaron sucks a sharp breath. Hearing Jens speaking in a quite serious voice somehow brings his courage back. Moyo nods in agreement of Jens’ words.

“No, I’ll come with you both!” His face is full of determination. “When?”

“Later after school?” Moyo suggest. “I’ll text Sander where he’s gonna be today.”

“And Robbe mustn’t know about this. Understand?” Jens stomach begins to churn uncomfortably. Of course it hurts him to exposed one of his bestfriend like this, but if it’s not done, then it also feels wrong. Moyo and Aaron nods in agreement, pretty sure feeling the same way like him too.

“Should we make it for our Youtube channel?” Moyo is suggesting again, which gets him a slap in the back of his head.

Little do they know, Robbe and Sander are laughing in the distance.

#wtfock #wtfam #fanfic

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gondorosi · 4 years

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The gradual separation of show!Jon from book!Jon - Part II

Magic

The showrunners deciding that magic is an unimportant part of the saga and to be relegated to the background is utter horseshit. There’s a bloody REASON direwolves and dragons reappeared in the world when they did, more or less at the same time. There’s a fucking reason why in Martin’s version Dany’s fireproof nature was a one-time thing, the dormant magic in her reawakening as needed BECAUSE dragons needed to be brought back into the world. Dany, Jon and Bran are the three most magic-sensitive characters in the whole story - and only one of them have anything to do with it in a significant manner (though significant might be stretching it). With Dany, her magical nature is only sporadically referred to (the dragons are the be all and end all) and Jon has nothing.

Show!Jon is a mortal man on every level, without a drop of magic in him. Book!Jon is no Bran, but there are three fundamental factors which show how deeply he is connected to the land.

Ghost: Removing Ghost's importance to Jon is akin to removing part of his soul. He isn't just 'big, white fluffy doggo'. Ghost is part of him, his familiar. Ghost is the physical personification of the magic running in Jon's blood, the proof of the Old Gods awareness running through Stark children's veins. Direwolves have a deeper, subtler and less apparent magic than dragons, but no less potent, and no less essential to Jon than her dragons are to Dany. Out of all the Stark siblings, Jon’s connection with Ghost and Bran’s connection with Summer seem to be the most symbiotic. All the siblings have strong bonds with their direwolves, molded to their own personality - Arya’s connection with Nymeria persists even across the sea in Essos, all legends of Robb in battle are accompanied by legends of Grey Wind and poor Rickon becomes so enmeshed in Shaggydog’s mind that there’s little to distinguish between boy and beast. However, perhaps due to the nature of their POVs and story arcs, none of the Starks save Bran and Jon have their journeys so closely aligned to their wolves. Which is why it’s nigh impossible to even consider Jon’s story moving forward without Ghost, especially post resurrection. The show omitted the obvious implication that Jon warged into Ghost before he died, had no role for him in the BoB, completely erased him in S7 and relegated him to a damn stray in S8. On the other hand, the show AMPED up the Dragon Queen part of Dany to the detriment of all other aspects of her character.

Warging: In a universe where Martin has tried his best to weave in strong magic with actual medieval politics, concentrating all Northern magic into one single character (whose surface they barely scratched) is utterly lazy storytelling. Jon's warging abilities are mighty and second perhaps only to Bran, though I hold the belief Arya is as powerful a warg. But unlike both of them, Jon seems to actively resist exploring his warging possibilities. Some of the resistance may be explained by his environment - with both the NW and the Freefolk considering warging to be something of a ‘black’ art or dark magic. Sure, the Free Folk are more open about it, with Varamyr envying Jon’s gift with Ghost in his thoughts:

“He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.”

The show makes NO mention of it. Jon being considered a warg is a major reason behind half the NW hating and fearing him. I don’t remember the show ever bringing up the fact that Jon was feared - they seemed to make Thorne and Slynt’s animosity out of sheer spite and disgust at his bastardy.

The Lord Commander's Raven: This is a favourite obsession of mine. Old Mormont’s raven pops out at Jon at seemingly random moments, but for the reader bursting with conspiracy theories, the raven is just another nod to the fact that Jon has a far greater role to play in the story than is visible to the eye. There's a popular theory that Bloodraven wargs him from time to time, since Jon is the secondary piece on his chessboard. The raven has come to Jon’s aid atleast twice that I can remember:

When Mormont is attacked by the wight:

Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. "Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he'd ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands.

During the election for Lord Commander when Mormont’s raven flying to his shoulder is used as a sign by Sam to argue for Mormont’s approval of Jon as the choice.

Bastardy

Jon's entire sense of self is centered around two things:

Ned Stark is his father

He's a bastard

His entire character arc is trying live up to one of those and distance himself from the connotations of the other. His bastardy is the formative lodestone of his character and moral compass but in the EXACT opposite of how Catelyn and Westerosi society as a whole expect it to be.

However, there's a twist to that. Jon's inner desire is EXACTLY what Catelyn feared. He DOES want to be Lord of Winterfell. He DOES harbour resentment that Robb (seemingly) has everything handed to him while the best Jon can hope for is to die at his post, unknown and unsung. He DOES want glory and power and to exact some kind of revenge on a society which deemed him vile and detestable for no fault of his. All the elements for him to become the Starks' own Daemon Blackfyre is already present.

But there's one difference - Ned Stark is no Aegon the Unworthy. Even more than all of the above heart's desires, Jon wants to be like his father. He wants to do what is right. He wants his father to be proud of him. He wants to be nothing like the greedy, vengeful and lusty creature he's always been told he is. He wants to help people and stand up for the weak because that's who he is. At the very heart of it, he just wants to be loved by Ned as much as his trueborn sons. And thus he takes Tyrion's words to heart and wears his bastardy like impenetrable armour.

In show!Jon, ALL of this inner struggle is lost. Jon's bastardy is rarely affixed other than as a side. Show!Jon is a 'good' man. Yes, undoubtedly. But what makes book!Jon a great man is that he masters his baser desires to focus on what's more important. THAT'S what Jeor, Mance and Stannis all saw in him. That's why the Free Folk follow him. That's why half the NW will die for him (yes I know the other half will kill him).

When you have spent most of the show without anywhere referencing how vital the armour of bastardy, and being Ned Stark’s son is to Jon's psyche and sense of self, even the best directors will not be able to depict WHY the news of his parentage will have ripped out the ground from under him. Dany's quest for the throne is out there glaring at us thus atleast on paper making sense that having her undeniable right threatened will rattle her (I personally hate hate HATE the creative decision that Dany's immediate reaction to find out Jon's a Targaryen will be paranoia and concern for HER throne but I digress).

Intelligence, ability and cunning

Up until S4 and most of S5, show!Jon and book!Jon exhibited similar levels of intelligence and cunning. One of my favourite scenes is Sam trying to stop Jon from marching into Mance's camp to try and assassinate him. Jon gets in his face with his frustration and despair boiling and asks if he has any better ideas. At this point he's done a superb job commanding the defence of Castle Black but has also just lost Ygritte, Pyp and Grenn all in one night, a significant portion of the meagre Castle Black forces and is fully aware that they cannot survive another charge. He's beyond desperate and aware that his efforts are likely suicidal but he can't just retreat, lick his wounds and do nothing.

The show labours under the popular delusion that truly good guys can't be really smart, as being smart means preserving yourself and truly good guys will always jump into danger first to protect other people. Politics is bad so if you're a good strategist then you can't be a good person.

Both book and show characterizations of Jon have been criticized for being examples of the ‘Chosen One’ the ‘reluctant hero’ who turns out to be the right man for the job, and for painting ambition and the quest for power as negative pursuits. In the book however, Jon’s ambitions never really had a chance to form. He’s prideful enough in his abilities to believe he would be an immediate select into the elite Ranger ranks and is devastated when that doesn’t work out. By the time he’s come to terms with the fact that being Mormont’s steward means being groomed for command, the truth of the White Walkers is in front of him and that becomes his sole consideration.

To many readers, Jon’s election to Lord Commander was ‘contrived’ though I do believe Sam played the long political game as he believed his friend being in a position of power would lead to an easier path for him. However, Jon doesn’t crumple under the weight of the responsibility - his actions as Lord Commander are revolutionary enough to completely destabilize his support. The show entirely omits all the strategic parts of his negotiations with both Stannis and the Freefolk. Unlike show!Jon, book!Jon does not allow the Freefolk through the Wall only on the account of goodwill and the fear of a common enemy. He takes their children hostage to ensure compliance. He negotiates with the Iron Bank for a loan to stave off starvation come winter. He repopulates the Gift with Free Folk. He shelters, counsels and aids Stannis. He addresses almost every logistical and material issue he can think except for the most fundamental - his people.

On the other hand, there’s no strategic and political angle to Show!Jon in S6 and S7, instead being posited only as warrior extraordinaire.

'The greatest swordsman in the North' - but too naive to not keep the sister who tricked him almost to his death at arm's length. Brave, loyal and courageous beyond belief - but completely befuddled by politicking. Immediately trusting a sister he’s never been close to and who has been Littlefinger’s pupil for a considerable time.

Book!Jon's abilities as a leader are sorely underappreciated, especially considering that his tenure as Lord Commander saw the status quo of almost every aspect of NW life upended. The previous LC is killed in a mutiny. The Wildling army launch an attack. The Others finally rise. A King/King Claimant FINALLY takes the NW's warnings seriously. The Wildlings are brought south of the Wall.

Despite being a new beginning for all recruits, the Night's Watch is the one order in Westeros whose traditions and rules have not changed in millennia. Understaffed, under-resourced and facing a threat the likes of which people would struggle to comprehend, Jon does the best he can. His major mistake is one most young leaders make, and that is assume all of those under automatically understand his reasons for doing what he does.

Relationships

Brother:

If there's one role Jon takes more seriously than 'Ned Stark's son, it's that of brother. Book!Jon is pretty much the pinnacle of brotherly love - Robb's right hand, Arya's champion and dutiful protector to both Bran and Rickon. There's a subtle tragedy in this too - despite how much his siblings love him, all of them, including Arya, have othered him. He's brother, but only half. Snow, not a Stark. The last in the list. 'The last brother left to me' - as felt by both Robb and Sansa.

Book!Jon and Show!Jon are both shown to be loving, dutiful brothers but once again the show is incapable of portraying more than one character at a time in a certain way. Thus all of Jon's brotherly love is concentrated on Sansa, the sibling he was least close to. Show!Jon never mentions Robb after his death mentions Arya not at all when book!Jon never stops thinking about the two of them.

Maybe, maybe if the show had bothered to flesh out Jon Snow's emotional attachment to his home and siblings, his dilemma between his family and Dany wouldn't have been so shoddy.

Friend:

Book!Jon, despite his aloof demeanour attracts fast friends. His staunchest supporters in the NW are those who he befriended when he first stepped within the gates. He's the only one to ever have stood up for many of them. And it's his NW friends who do become truly brothers, as they see and stand beside him during his rise to leadership.

Show!Jon is no different - he's got his loyal friends but there was no apparent discord after him being elected LC. Which is surprising considering that this is the moment that Jon effectively decides to ‘Kill the boy.’ The Gilly baby switch storyline is completely done away with, probably because it is the one decision that very clearly paints Jon as grey. The book Sam struggles to understand this decision - in his mind his best friend would never have done that. Maester Aemon is the one who sets him straight - Jon is no longer just a brother of the Watch, he’s the Lord Commander now. He can no longer be taking decisions just as Sam’s friend.

The show never really dwelt on the chasm Jon’s position as a leader would have created with his brothers who till them were his equals. Book!Jon knowingly starts distancing himself and this is a flaw that comes back to stab him in the chest - again a misstep in one raised to leadership at a young age.

Lover:

This part will be a bit of a cop-out since at this point the only common love interest between the books and the show is Ygritte. The show axed Val, who’s one of my favourite secondary characters and my main preference for a Jon pairing pre-Dany. And of course, there’s far too much plot to cover before Jon and Dany even meet in the book (if they’re ever finished).

There are factions of the fandom who don’t think the Jon and Dany romance in S7 was set up convincingly. Admittedly that’s going to be hard for me to judge fairly as I’ve been in the Jonerys camp ever since ADWD made it clear how Jon was growing as a leader and as a magical touchstone in direct parallels to Dany. It definitely helped that Kit’s portrayal of Jon had FINALLY started to appeal to me once The Watchers of the Wall aired. I’d been one of the many fans who had been waiting for these two to meet on the show - and though I personally found the Jon-Dany relationship progression to be one of the few good things about S7, I can perhaps get why many neutral fans (i.e not commited to any rival ships for either Jon or Dany) think its out of character for them to be so involved so soon.

There are plenty of popular assumptions perpetuated by the show which have no backup in the original material - one of them is ‘dumb, lovable idiot’ Jon paired with the ‘awkward and oblivious as fuck with women’ Jon. Now, I’ll not deny that the latter portrayal works QUITE well with show!Jon (Kit’s face is the perfect cast for this characterization) but I just don’t see it working with book!Jon. The boy isn’t seeking out women but its not like he’s not around them. Alys Karstark was quite obviously taken with him, and I doubt Jon missed it, but there were far greater things of import to consider for both of them - I saw no awkwardness in the text. Jon dislikes Selyse and manages to be both cordial and deferential as required. Melisandre makes no secret of her fascination with him - there’s no bumbling awkwardness there either. And Val - he’s quite smitten and there’s some awkwardness there, sure but its hardly the bumbling variety.

As for Dany - considering that at this point the 7 seasons of the show is all we will ever have, I somehow think the softer show!Jon makes a much better pairing with the more hardened show!Dany. Its as if certain aspects of their personalities were flipped in the show - book!Dany is definitely much softer and gentle without her power and strength being diminished, whereas book!Jon is far more calculated and ruthless without compromising on his honour and integrity.

#jon snow #book!jon #show!jon #ASoIaF #game of thrones #nights watch #asoiaf val #jonerys

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owlsinathens · 4 years

Note

Greysnow with the questions on 002 and Theon with the questions in 003

Hey nonnie, thanks so much for the ask!

I'm sitting at work, which is a museum, and there's absolutely ZERO tourists coming and I'm bored out of my mind. You're saving me ❤️

Warning for extra long post and I'm on my phone and can't put it under a cut (it just doesn't work no matter what I try)

002 - Send me a ship and I will tell you:

• when I started shipping them

On August 07, 2017. That was the day I watched the episode The Spoils of War, and saw Jon and Theon's reunion at Dragonstone. Hit me like the mother of all tanks.

• my thoughts

In that moment? Uncoherent lol I just started bawling and couldn't figure out why 🙈 it was just so. there they were, after all that's happened to them and so much in common and so much separating them, and Theon goes, Jon, and my heart just exploded idk... Jon's look was so. Pain and anger and in my warbled mind something else too that I can't put into words. I just thought omg they belong together.

• what makes me happy about them

they have both been through so much and came out of it not only alive, but stronger. i'm not comparing their respective journeys - not comparable at all - but both are so incredibly resilient, such survivors (i'm yet again ignoring season 8) and there's so much potential for them (even in canon imo) to become something like at least allies, have someone in each other they can lean onto for support, share memories with... i know i know it's never going to happen, but a girl can dream :)

• what makes me sad about them

that they've lost so many opportunities back in winterfell. they could've been friends. theon was too jealous and flippant and arrogant, jon too stubborn and moody and well. also jealous. these idiots.

• things done in fanfic that annoy me

when Theon is only interested in Jon as a substitute for Robb, or to make Robb jealous. Any "greysnow" story that is really about throbb tbh. if you want throbb, make throbb, but leave jon out of it. i srsly despair when theon hooks up with both and in the end jon is left hanging. i love going ot3 though! (if it's a fair ot3, and not throbb with a sidesnack jon) ok sorry sorry it's a pet peeve i could rant about all day 🙈

• things I look for in fanfic

i don't care much about grammar or punctuation when reading fic. what i want from a greysnow fic is basically: it should be in a language i can understand. it shouldn't be too wildly OOC. it should contain actual greysnow (you'd be surprised 😂) and end happily or at the very least hopefully for them together.

• my wishlist

all of it. i'm serious, give me all the greysnow possible. happy or at least hopeful endings a must tho, because I can't bear anything else, I'm such a wuss

• who I'd be comfortable them ending up with, if not each other

In a non-canon world, and if being together was impossible (which it never is in my non-canon worlds lol) I'd say Theon with Robb and Jon with Ygritte. In a canon world I'd just want peace and quiet for both of them, if not together then for each in their own way.

• my happily ever after for them

growing old together and bitching at each other in between sappily romantic moments 😁

003 - Give me a character and I will tell you:

• How I feel about this character

i'm giving you the tl;dr right away or this would bust the seams of this already WAY too long post. I LOVE THEON. everything about him. with all my heart. with all my soul. i think about him WAY too often, i randomly cry about him way too often. i have way too much merchandise. and guess what? it's nowhere near enough 😬

• Any/all the people I ship romantically with this character

erm... Jon 😅

i do like me a bit of throbb sometimes, when Jon is happily engaged elsewhere

• My favourite non-romantic relationship for this character

Theon&Sansa. I absolutely love when they're besties (romantic Theonsa is my absolute NoTP)

Theon&Asha/Yara are my fave too, love them greyjoy siblings

• My unpopular opinion about this character

i do think Theon did betray - not the Starks as a house, or someone he owes allegience (he doesn't), but Robb. Who trusted and loved Theon like a brother (yesyesyes) and who Theon swore his sword to (now and always, anyone?). i do think Theon betrayed two young boys, not because they are Starks but because they were children who never thought he would harm them. i do think his childhood/upbringing explains a lot. but it doesn't automatically excuse everything. what does, imo, is Theon knowing what he did is horrible. Him owning up to it.

• One thing I wish would happen/have happened with this character in canon

show canon - do i need to say it? HE SHOULD HAVE LIVED!!! he should've had the opportunity to become happy ffs. he could've had so much more life and love and peace and GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

book canon - oh god if GRRM kills Theon i swear i will riot. Let the man atone for his perceived sins, as he himself sees it, by doing something, not by senselessly/"heroically" making him into cannon fodder for ANYONE ok

• favourite friendship for this character

Theon and Sansa!

• my crossover ship

hahaha ok i'm not really into crossovers, but i do wonder what would happen if you put teenage theon, teenage draco malfoy and teenage loki into a locked room. an orgy or a massacre, is my guess.

#anon ask #theon greyjoy #jon snow #greysnow #snowjoy #long post #really long post

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hergrim · 4 years

Text

Estimates of troop strengths in the Wot5K - A Game of Thrones

Introduction

One of several projects I’m working on at the moment is an analysis of the War of the Five Kings from a purely medieval military history point of view, taking a somewhat more critical view of the various commanders and their actions than is usual. Part of the ongoing process has been estimating the troop strengths and, where possible, the composition of armies. Since these calculations would derail any essay, I’ve decided to edit my notes into something resembling coherent thought and post them here, so I can just refer to them when I publish the essays.

Originally the essay series I’m working on was focused entirely on Robb, but it has now expanded to encompass the war more generally. As such, this first post will just be about the troop counts and army compositions featured in A Game of Thrones. As I do more on Renly, Stannis and Balon, I’ll post some estimates for A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords.

Robb Stark and the Northern host

The numbers given for Robb’s army in the ASOIAF wiki are actually what started me on the process of providing my own estimates for the various armies, as I think it makes a few significant methodological errors in the process, which has a knock on effect for how Robb’s decisions need to be interpreted. Primarily, I disagree with the numbers given for Robb at Moat Cailin and the breakdown of infantry vs cavalry.

Robb's initial Northern force consists of 19,500 men (AGOT, Catelyn VII), with slightly more than 1/4 being heavy cavalry (AGOT, Bran VI gives the figures of 3,300-3,400 heavy cavalry out of an initial muster of 12,000). This would suggest ~14,500 infantry and ~5,000 heavy cavalry in his Northern host.

Starting with with Bran VI, I have a slightly different interpretation of Maester Luwin’s breakdown of the heavy cavalry. His explanation of the numbers to Bran is that there are “Three hundred, perhaps four [hundred]” knights “among three thousand armored lances who are not knights.” The original calculator has taken this to mean that there are 300-400 knights in addition to the other 3000 heavy cavalry, and this is a perfectly valid interpretation of the sentence. However, I believe that Luwin’s use of “among” signals that the knights should be taken as part of the 3000, not as an addition to them for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, GRRM uses “among” in an inclusive sense elsewhere in AGOT. When Tyrion thinks on the Field of Fire, for instance, King Mern is “among” the 4000 men burned, not the 4001st man to be burnt, and Ned Stark thinks on the fact that he’d never spoken to Gregor during Greyjoy’s Rebellion because he was just “one knight among thousands”. So, while Luwin’s phrasing can be interpreted as meaning that the knights are there in addition to the other heavy horse, I think GRRM’s general use of “among” as an inclusive term means that they are intended to be included among the 3000 heavy horse, not separated from them.

Secondly, while the proportion of heavy horse gathered at Winterfell would be quite large even with the knights as part of the 3000, the general trend of what individual contingents we see is of very low proportions of heavy horse; just 13% of the Karstark forces is heavy horse (300 out of 2300), Roose has 500 mounted men (14%) out of 3500 men just before the Red Wedding (ASOS, Catelyn VI) and, in spite of having the highest number of landed knights, the Manderlys only send 240 horse (16% of 1500 men) to join Robb at Moat Cailin (AGOT, Catelyn VII). This general trend of low numbers of cavalry suggests to me that, when the numbers of cavalry can be taken in two ways, the smallest option should be taken.

This leads to the second major disagreement I have with the wiki’s army size estimates: the assumption that the 1500 Manderly men in Catelyn VII are in addition to the 18 000 men that Robb already has, not the contingent that brings Robb’s forces up to 18 000. This is a number that I’m more confident of; Robb’s statement that his "whole army” is 18 000 men strong comes well after the Manderlys have arrived, and the use of ravens for communications likely means that Robb knew how large the Manderly force was going to be shortly after they left White Harbour.

The reduction of Robb’s army to 18 000 total men and the reassessment of typical contingents from slightly over 25% cavalry to 13-16% cavalry also requires a lowering of the total cavalry from ~5000 at Moat Cailin to a maximum of 4000 cavalry. The number of foot, however, doesn’t need to be significantly reduced.

There are some references to Robb having 20 000 men (AGOT, Catelyn IX; ACOK, Catelyn II), which would better fit the wiki’s figure of 19 500 men. The problem is that we also hear of there being six thousand men with Robb at the Whispering Woods (AGOT, Catelyn X), which is far too few if we go with the wiki’s number of 5000 Northern cavalry for Robb. Between the Freys, the Mallisters (see below) and the other scattered Riverland remnants who join Robb, he’d have near enough to 7000 cavalry by the time of the Whispering Woods, and he wouldn’t be outnumbered by Jaime by 3:1, but by 2:1 (AGOT, Catelyn X).

My way of resolving this conflict is to suggest that both instances of people saying Robb having 20 000 men were exaggerations, not accurate accountings of size. In the first instance, Catelyn is angry with Lord Frey and is threatening him with the size of Robb’s army. In this scenario, claiming that there are “twenty thousand men” outside of Lord Walder’s walls is easier to say than “eighteen thousand men”, being a rounder number, and is also more threatening because it increases the size of Robb’s army. In the second instance, Renly is summarizing reports he has received of Robb’s strength, and there is plenty of room for errors to creep into these reports and for Renly to be generous in his estimates of Robb’s strength, as it only emphasizes the disparity in strength between Robb and Renly if Robb has fewer troops than Renly allows for (which he does).

On the other hand, Robb’s statement that he has 18 000 men occurs long enough after the Manderlys have arrived for him to have factored their force into his calculations and Catelyn is present with Robb at the Whispering Woods and should have a good idea of his strength. This is supported by Galbart Glover’s estimate of Jaime’s 14-15 000 men outnumbering Robb’s force by three to one. If Lord Glover is assuming that Jaime has 15 000 men, and Robb 6000 men, then Jaime outnumbers Robb by 2.5:1 which, rounded up, would be three to one. Additionally, Catelyn may have been overstating Robb’s numbers in her mind for exaggeration and contrast between his bodyguard of 30 and his army of 6000, neither of which she is certain can protect him from harm. Robb may well have had 5500-5750 men rather than 6000, which pushes the degree to which his is outnumbered by closer to three to one.

I think this proposal reconciles the contradictions in the text and offers support for my “low count” of 18 000 men. After all, if Galbart Glover is rounding up to 3 for effect, then why can’t Catelyn or Renly do the same?

Tywin’s army at the Green Fork

The size of Tywin’s army at the battle on the Green Fork is one of the few armies that we have a mostly reliable estimate for. Chella estimates it at twenty thousand men, “by their fires” and, based on the area the camp occupies, Tyrion thinks that she can’t be far wrong (AGOT, Tyrion VII). This is further reinforced in the next of Tyrion’s chapters where, after having settled in, he calls it a ”vast host twenty thousand strong”.

The one minor caveat here is that we don’t know how many men were with Addam Marbrand scouting Robb’s approach. The Neck is something in the order of 370 miles away from the Ruby Ford and the crossroads, which is 15 days of hard riding and 21-22 days of fast, horse preserving, riding. Marbrand is definitely operating quite near the Neck, as a number of his outriders are killed immediately after Robb debouches into the Riverlands, so there was an expectation that he would be facing down Robb’s army at some point and that means a sizeable force for protection during the retreat downriver to Tywin. There’s also evidence of skirmishing between Marbrand and Walder Frey’s forces, which relates to another point: the scouting force needed to be large enough to give Walder reason to pause and not immediately attack if he saw an opportunity.

Given the speed of communications between Marbrand and Tywin and the distance between the two forces, it’s likely that at least one castle with a resident Maester had been taken by Marbrand near Frey lands in order to reduce the delay in communication. While we haven’t heard of a such a castle being taken, it’s the only way that the message for Marbrand to return to Tywin, burning and harassing the Northern army, so soon after it entered the Riverlands.

Medieval scouting parties could range between dozens of men all the way up to several hundred men, largely depending on how far they were operating from their own army and how much opposition they expected to face. One of the largest forces was William Felton’s scouting/deeds of derring-do party prior to the Battle of Nájera, which had somewhere between four and five hundred men, approximately 200 of whom were men-at-arms and the remainder were mounted archers. This is probably the minimum size of Marbrand’s scouting force, although it would be mostly cavalry as mounted archers barely exist in ASOIAF, and I suspect that six or seven hundred men would be more likely based on the need to capture a castle for communications and then skirmish during the retreat.

Combined with Tyrion’s force, Marbrand’s scouting party might well raise Tywin’s army to 21 000 men rather than 20 000, especially if Tyrion and Chella were being conservative in their estimates of the army size and it was more than 20 000 strong.

This caveat aside, the important thing about Tywin’s army is that, unlike most armies in ASOIAF, we can create a fairly accurate breakdown of the army’s composition thanks to the detail GRRM goes into in describing the Battle on the Green Fork. He lists a total of 6800 cavalry (4000 on the right wing, 300 in the center and 2500 in reserve) and 2500 infantry (in reserve). From these figures, the mention of what the other troop types are and the overall size of the army, we can reconstruct the rest of the army.

Starting with the conventional 20 000 number to be conservative, we can remove 9300 men straight away, leaving us with 10 700 men. Of these, perhaps a thousand form the “swarming mass” that makes up the vanguard, as it’s likely that the “thousand other voices” screaming back at Gregor excludes Tyrion’s clansmen - any fewer and it’s hard to describe it as a “swarming mass” of low quality cavalry. This leaves us with 9 700 men to account for.

The center of Twyin’s army is made up of “squares” of pikemen flanked on either side by “three long lines” of archers, with “rank on rank” of men-at-arms behind the archers and a reserve of 300 knights. This is where we fully enter the realms of speculation.

To begin with, we don’t know what exactly is meant by “squares” of pikemen. Medieval pike columns could contain as many as 6000 men, while early modern squares might have as few as 100, so any size estimate is going to involve a lot of guesswork. I’ve gone back and forward about how to interpret this phrase and have finally decided to treat the “squares” as distinct units for the purposes of command, but tactically in a similar manner to 15th century dismounted men-at-arms. As a result, I’m estimating their strength as 250 men - to be deployed 10 deep - and their total number to be 3000 men (12 pike squares). This allows for a reasonable width of line in the center (300 yards), but also adequate depth to resist cavalry charges.

Estimates for the archers and men-at-arms follow directly on from this. The archers need to be in thousands because, as Philippe de Commynes points out, they’re only useful when employed in such numbers. Given that fully half of Jaime’s infantry are archers, I’m inclined to assign 4000 archers and 2700 men-at-arms to Tywin so that his overall archer to footsoldier ratio is about 1:2. The archers, each occupying a space of three feet, would occupy 667 yards on either side of the pikes and the men-at-arms, each occupying four and a half foot, would have the same frontage, but double the depth (6 ranks).

In all, I believe a conservative estimate of Tywin’s numbers, not counting Tyrion’s Clansmen, to be 7800 cavalry, 3000 pikemen, 2700 men-at-arms, 4000 archers and 2500 other infantry of an indeterminate type.

The Mallister forces

The number of men Jason Mallister can field, in spite of his importance during Robb’s initial campaign and later at the Battle of the Fords, has yet to be mentioned. While I’ve seen a number of estimates, with numbers as low as 1500-2000 men, the best estimate I’ve seen to date has been @racefortheironthrone‘s estimate in his Chapter-by-Chapter analysis of A Game of Thrones.

However, some interesting information in Fire and Blood has caused me to rethink the relative military power of House Mallister, and I believe I’ve also found a semi-reliable method of estimating their forces. The particular passage can be found in the chapter titled “Aftermath - The Hour of the Wolf” and runs thus:

House Tully was unique amongst the great houses of Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror had made them the Lords Paramount of the Trident, yet in many ways they continued to be overshadowed by many of their own bannermen. The Brackens, the Blackwoods, and the Vances all ruled wider domains and could field much larger armies, as could the upstart Freys of the Twins. The Mallisters of Seagard had a prouder lineage, the Mootons of Maidenpool were far wealthier, and Harrenhal, even cursed and blasted and in ruins, remained a more formidable castle than Riverrun, and ten times the size besides.

The main point of interest is that the four military powerhouses of the Riverlands are the Brackens, the Blackwoods, the Vances and the Freys, while the Mallisters are excluded from this list. Instead, they are singled out as having a better pedigree than the Tullys which, although not excluding them from having marginally larger armies than their overlords, does quite firmly give them fewer men than House Frey.

In re-examining the question of Mallister manpower, I was inspired by @racefortheironthrone‘s comment that Jason Mallister must have had substantial forces, as his men covered four fords by themselves. Since we know roughly how many infantry Edmure was working with (8000, ACOK Catelyn V) and the minimum number of fords (12, ACOK Catelyn VI), we can get a reasonable maximum number of Mallister strength by assuming that all fords had an equal number of defenders and that there were only twelve being defended. This provides a maximum number of 2664 infantry and, based on typical Riverland horse to foot ratios, about 890 horse, for a total of 3554 men.

These are, however, maximum numbers. While the ford nearest to Riverrun is very broad and at least 50 yards wide (ACOK, Catelyn VI), it’s likely that the other fords were much narrower and more easily defended. It’s also probable that there were more than a dozen fords, and that Tywin was simply trying to break through a broad stretch of the river rather than overwhelm every ford.

Based on the number of men stationed at the Blanchetaque by the French during the Crecy campaign (3500) and probable English numbers by that point (12-13 000), I would say that medieval commanders expected that someone attacking a ford needed an advantage of at least four to one to succeed. As Tywin can’t have had above 16 000 men at this point in the campaign and, being a cautious man who preferred to significantly outnumber his enemies, likely aimed to have an advantage of 5:1 over the defenders, the minimum number of men for House Mallister can be calculated as 1070 infantry and 357 cavalry, or 1427 men total.

This means there’s a difference of 2100 men between the maximum and minimum estimates, but I think we can discard anything close to the minimum number.

Firstly, the Mallisters are clearly a powerful house, even if they aren’t one of the four military powers of the Riverlands. There’s no reason to suspect that they are significantly less powerful than House Tully, which must be capable of raising at least a couple of thousand men, and they may still even exceed the Tullys in military might given House Tully’s typical weakness compared to their lords.

Secondly, the Mallisters saw off what, if not an attack by the main Ironborn fleet, was at least a major assault by the Ironborn during Greyjoy’s Rebellion and were placed in charge of what was probably one of the largest fords across the Red Fork. You don’t fend off even part of the Iron Fleet or get selected to defend a ford at least fifty yards across unless you can bring a lot of men to bear in the defense of these fords.

Ultimately, I don’t see the Mallisters having much fewer than 2000 foot and 668 heavy horse. As I like round numbers and don’t believe the Mallisters have as many men as the maximum calculation provides, I’m going to give them a total of 3000 men as an optimistic estimate, divided between 2250 foot and 750 heavy horse. This makes them quite a powerful house militarily, but keeps them sufficiently under the minimum army size for a Riverlands powerhouse (4000) that they noticeably fall short of this status.

#asoiaf #army size

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persephoneofhades · 4 years

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minachar28 replied to your post “minachar28 replied to your post “If Maddie and Ben never get together...”

I'm gonna point out that "coming onto my post" comment makes little sense on social media. Your post was public for the world to see so getting comments (even those you disagree with) comes with the territory. I looked up #Polymarine and found your post. On to your new post - I can see you point but you also missed some of mine. Bryndie was heavily entwined in the frabric of Siren. From Day 1 there were hints, then clear signs then they officially happened. Now its being dropped like it meant nothing. You seem to mainly be a Raddie fan (I may be wrong) but even they are slowing being put on the back burning. It becoming all about Bryn. I can see with this is all going. Sure Maddie in a interesting storyline with Ben & Ryn for now but how long will that really last? Maddie will be forgotten/left behind/out of the loop before long. As part of the main couple she gets to be a real lead. Bryndie is beautiful & their story can last but only if the writers don't give up on them. Relationships are up & down/not always perfect so the conflict isn't a bad thing but this extra distance will most likely get unnecessary. As for possibly dropping the show - if enough people stop watching then Siren will get cancelled which isn't helping anyone. Ben leaving Ian to drown was messed up but did you missed the point that Maddie would die? That was also a main reason Ben didn't save him which he should have told her instead of making look like it was just about protecting the merpeople. I'm not saying Ben was right but see how the merpeople was gonna be hunted down and enslaved/experimented on/killed. Ben had reasons. I'm all for Maddie having separate things outside of the mermaid stuff but that could still happen with her bring part of Polymarine. Obviously we can disagree but I needed to explain my point. In my 3rd comment I meant without Ben & Ryn. Also meant the Byrndie could last if the writers don't give up on them. Wasn't trying to start an argument just replying back.

You can point out that my post is public and it is and I have no issues with people responding to it, but you can also choose how you respond to it. Being negative on a post where I was trying super hard to be positive and telling me that you think the show is RUINED? Didn’t feel so good. I’m always up for discussions and debates about a show I’m this passionate about, I really am. Just... maybe try to keep it to discussion topics and not plain and simple bashing.

Okay, so responding to this with the perspective of having now seen episode 8, I’m... starting to turn towards the side of “this is total BS, Maddie’s being sidelined and it’s AWFUL and Polymarine may not last and I hate it.” There are quite a few moments in episode 8 that just... very visually represent that difference (Maddie getting a cheek kiss and then Ben immediately afterwards getting a lips kiss, Maddie not standing/sitting next to Bryn at the wedding, etc).

So like... yeah. I mean, you’re not wrong that I’m partial to Raddie over Bryn, for sure, but I did like Polymarine at least equally as much as I liked Raddie. And I didn’t HATE Bryn, they’ve definitely had some cute moments in the past, though I’m liking them less and less as this season goes on because they seem to be getting portrayed as more and more dysfunctional. But I have a whole post somewhere detailing why I think Polymarine perfectly represents the whole theme of balance and how the three of them together work beautifully to represent the two things each of them is always having to balance within themselves and how each of them works to balance the other two. Polymarine obviously does not exist without Ben and I have absolutely loved Ben in earlier seasons and really rooted for him. It’s just this season that they’ve made him less likable which has, in turn, made his relationship with Ryn somewhat less likable, too.

What I think you were missing earlier is that while I guess I didn’t necessarily disagree that there were some bad signs, I was trying REALLY FUCKING HARD to stay positive about it and see it in a better light, in a way that wasn’t indicative of this show I adore becoming a shitshow that drops some spectacular polyamorous rep with a beautiful wlw relationship and sidelines the main Black woman. I really really REALLY did not want to believe this show would do that, I’ve been working SUPER FUCKING HARD all goddamn season to try to come up with theories about why Ryn and Maddie have been getting a lot less affectionate scenes than Ryn and Ben have been getting, about why it was important for Maddie to have her relationship with Robb and (this is what my original post was about) why Maddie being with Robb didn’t actually cancel out the polyamorous rep or the wlw relationship since as far as we’ve been told, Ryn is still dating two people, which makes Polymarine still a polyamorous relationship, even if it’s a V instead of a triangle. And Maddie having feelings for Robb and maybe starting to date him means that Maddie is ALSO dating two people, turning that V into a Z. Or an N. Whichever letter you prefer. Which was UNHEARD of polyamorous representation. So while I definitely love Polymarine, I was not against the show exploring the different ways polyamorous relationships can happen, the different forms they can take.

After episode 8, though, I’m... really despondent. I’m losing some of my faith in this show doing right by us, doing right by these characters. Robb’s gone, Maddie definitely got sidelined in this episode both narratively and visually. None of that spells anything good. It’s like 3am so my mind is coming up with wild conspiracy theories about how some of what we’re seeing are more hallucinations in Ben’s mind, that the season 2 finale wasn’t a one-off, but FORESHADOWING. I’m tired, I’m upset, I’m kinda angry right now, so I’m probably MASSIVELY off-base, but it’s literally the only thread of hope I have left right now so I’m going to hang onto it until the show rips it out of my hands.

As for dropping the show, it didn’t sound like you were getting much out of it and I’m a proponent of not watching shows that don’t bring you joy. It’s not your job to try to keep a show from getting cancelled if you don’t like it anymore, even if other people do. I’ve dropped SEVERAL shows because they weren’t making me happy anymore, so like I said, no judgment on my end if this show just wasn’t doing it for you anymore. Personally, I wasn’t just sticking around for Polymarine or for Raddie, I was sticking around for Ryn and her baby, Ryn and her tribe, for Helen, for Xander, for the environmental message, for the beautiful theme of balance being the key to everything. There was (and hopefully still IS) so much in this show that I love and I 100% would stick around to watch this show for a while probably even if Polymarine stayed a V, or a Z. I might have problems if Maddie got sidelined and removed from Polymarine entirely, but up until this episode, that hadn’t entirely happened. This episode removed almost EVERYTHING that I enjoy about this show from the environmental message (all three of them agreeing to use the sonic cannon despite its known impact on all marine life), the message about balance (either Ben or Ryn has to give up their home to be together or they have to break up and go their separate ways but no in-between option) to Maddie’s role in the narrative and her relationship with Ryn AND Ben to Xander possibly DYING. So quite honestly, if the show continues the way it has in this episode, I’LL probably consider dropping it, because this isn’t the show I fell in love with.

Okay, so addressing your question about if I recognized that Maddie would have died if Ian had been allowed to live. NO. I don’t recognize that because it ISN’T TRUE. Did you forget the whole fact that this was a HALLUCINATION Ben had in which he mischaracterized both Xander and Calvin MASSIVELY and was working on some majorly incorrect information? We were told, point blank, that Ian could not have revealed ANYTHING without some solid physical proof, it’s why he was trying to kidnap Ryn. Without her, his article was DEAD. Had Ian lived, they probably could have forced him to give up his attempts given that they’d just SAVED HIS LIFE. We have NO IDEA what might have happened if Ben had let Ian live. But I HIGHLY doubt that it would have automatically FOR SURE meant Maddie’s death. The whole thing was a nightmare scenario based on Ben’s paranoia and very little else. Ben didn’t have “reasons”. At least, none that were actually REASONABLE. While Ben probably SHOULD have told Maddie about his hallucination, the reason he DIDN’T is because admitting to having hallucinations means he’d have to admit the reason WHY he was having hallucinations: namely, that he re-addicted himself to the Song. Nothing Ben saw in his hallucination is a worthwhile excuse for letting another human being drown when Ben could have saved him. Nothing. It helps us UNDERSTAND why Ben did what he did, sure, because it shows us just how not in his right mind Ben is, how far gone he’s become now that he’s listened to the Song again. But it doesn’t exonerate him or excuse the fact that he killed a man.

I think we have a very different definition of what “being part of Polymarine” means. For me, Polymarine is the relationship between the three of them (at least for now) and the three of them are still connected through Ryn. Just because Ben and Maddie aren’t dating EACH OTHER doesn’t mean that Polymarine isn’t still a relationship that exists, it just exists as a V instead of a triangle, as I mentioned in the original post you replied to and have mentioned in my replies a few times now. Maddie is still dating Ryn and her involvement in Robb wasn’t (for a while) taking her away from the main narratives. She was SUPER involved in the earlier episodes that dealt with the hybrids and the baby. In fact there was an entire episode in which Ben spends the whole time with his parents while Maddie runs around with Ryn, helping her train, helping her read, taking her to the hybrid doctor to deal with the cramps, following her to the ranch to find Meredith, etc. For a while there, in the beginning of this season, it definitely did not feel like Maddie was going to get sidelined just because she needed space from Ben or because they introduced Robb. I have been holding onto that hope those episodes gave me up until now. But while I agree that I’d prefer Maddie have side storylines AND continue to be involved in the main narrative, I think that’s exactly what was happening in the early episodes.

So look, am I starting to believe that all of the people who have been crying out in the tags that this season’s been a sign that Maddie’s going to be sidelined and the show is going to let go of the part that made it the unique and beautiful, might be right? Yes.

Am I still desperately trying to cling to what little hope I have that there’s something we AREN’T SEEING HERE that can turn this around in the 11th hour?

Also yes.

#minachar28 #siren #siren freeform #polymarine #bryndie #long post #siren spoilers #maddie bishop #ryn fisher #ben pownall

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stormcloudrising · 5 years

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A Match with Someone Brave, Gentle and STRONG

April 6, 2019

Ok, the title of this post is not a direct quote but if you are familiar with the books, you know the one to which I refer. However, here is the correct wording of the quote.

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me."

A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

Before you read much more of this brief essay, I advice you to watch this theory video by Joe Magician. I think it’s one of the best and most important fandom theories that I’ve seen in ages. In it he shows all the book evidence and comments from GRRM that points to the extinct House Strong from the Riverlands being an ancient branch of House Stark. The video is about 30 minutes but I guarantee that you won’t be disappointed in watching it all the way through. And this is true even if you are not a Jonsa stan because truthfully, the theory is that good.

youtube

There is a second companion video by Crowfood’s Daughter that discusses Ser Duncan the Tall but for now, I want to discuss what Joe Magician proposes in his video and how it my pertain to Jon and Sansa by posting some book passages. These excerpts will have greater meaning after you have watched the video and so I again advice you do so first.

Good...you’ve watched the video...hopefully! Now that you see how House Strong might have been a separated branch of House Stark, you most likely can see the additional importance of Ned using the word “strong” in his promise to Sansa. If you’re like me, you are also probably wondering if GRRM dropped any clues using the word that suggests we are meant to see Jon as the “strong” candidate who will marry Sansa. Well the answer is of course yes. There are actually quite a few book clues that point in this direction. Let’s look at some of them.

This first excerpt is from AGOT and occurs when the Lord Commander tells Jon that his father was executed in Kings Landing.

"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen. "My lord, what of my sisters? Arya and Sansa, they were with my father, do you know—"

"Pycelle makes no mention of them, but doubtless they'll be treated gently. I will ask about them when I write." Mormont shook his head. "This could not have happened at a worse time. If ever the realm needed a strong king … there are dark days and cold nights ahead, I feel it in my bones …" He gave Jon a long shrewd look. "I hope you are not thinking of doing anything stupid, boy."

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

The strong king that the realm needs is of course Jon. This next passage is about Ghost after he is injured by Orrell’s Eagle on the Skirling pass.

As if in answer, Ghost struggled to his feet.

"The wolf is strong," the ranger said. "Ebben, water. Stonesnake, your skin of wine. Hold him still, Jon."

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

As Jon himself tells us, Ghost is a part of him, which means that Jon is also part of Ghost. This fact is brought home to the reader in several ways including Melissandre’s vision Jon switching from wolf to man and back again. Mel’s vision is of course a portent of Jon’s eventual death at the hands of his men and him warging into Ghost just as he dies. The attack on Ghost by Orrel’s eagle is a similar omen as it presage the future ambush on Jon by the same bird as well as the neck wound he suffers when he is killed by his men.

Here is another instance when strong is associated with Jon and the Starks of Winterfell...this time by Maester Aemon

Grenn gave Pyp a strange look. "He doesn't know."

"Jon," said Maester Aemon, "much and more happened while you were away, and little of it good. Balon Greyjoy has crowned himself again and sent his longships against the north. Kings sprout like weeds at every hand and we have sent appeals to all of them, yet none will come. They have more pressing uses for their swords, and we are far off and forgotten. And Winterfell . . . Jon, be strong . . . Winterfell is no more . . ."

"No more?" Jon stared at Aemon's white eyes and wrinkled face. "My brothers are at Winterfell. Bran and Rickon . . ."

A Storm of Swords - Jon VI

These next three excerpts are extremely important. I make this statement because the memory of something Ned said to Jon occurs in three of his chapters and so the words obviously have had a strong (no pun intended) impact on his thinking. It’s also important because of one of Jon’s dreams that I will reference shortly.

All the same, Jon found himself hoping that Styr's fears proved well founded. If the gods are good, a patrol will chance by and put an end to this. "No wall can keep you safe," his father had told him once, as they walked the walls of Winterfall. "A wall is only as strong as the men who defend it." The wildlings might have a hundred and twenty men, but four defenders would be enough to see them off, with a few well-placed arrows and perhaps a pail of stones.

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

"Yes." Jon Snow glanced up at the Wall, towering over them like a cliff of ice. A hundred leagues from end to end, and seven hundred feet high. The strength of the Wall was its height; the length of the Wall was its weakness. Jon remembered something his father had said once. A wall is only as strong as the men who stand behind it. The men of the Night's Watch were brave enough, but they were far too few for the task that confronted them.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

The raven flapped its wings. "Kill, kill."

Sigorn's father, the old Magnar, had been crushed beneath the falling stair during his attack on Castle Black. I would feel the same if someone asked me to make common cause with the Lannisters, Jon told himself. "Your father tried to kill us all," he reminded Sigorn. "The Magnar was a brave man, yet he failed. And if he had succeeded … who would hold the Wall?" He turned away from the Thenns.

"Winterfell's walls were strong as well, but Winterfell stands in ruins today, burned and broken. A wall is only as good as the men defending it."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

The possibility that House Strong was an ancient branch of House Stark adds additional emphasis to Ned’s words to Jon about walls needing strong men to defend. It suggests that the magic in both the great Wall and Winterfell is tied to the Starks in someway. This is an idea that has been popular in the fandom for ages but Joe Magician’s theory backs it up.

Winterfell “fell” to Theon because Bran and Rickon were still children. Bran was injured and the two had not yet grown into the “strong men” they need to be to defend their home and the realm. Things might also have been made easier for the Greyjoys because Theon is an adoptive Stark and so he can be considered an adoptive strong who instead of manning the walls, opened the doors to the enemy. The Starks/Strongs were defeated from within.

You need “strong” men to defend the great Wall and the wall of Winterfell or in other words, you need Starks to defend the walls and protect the realm. The Wall protects the realm from the Others and strong men (Starks) have defended it for thousands of years. If the Great Wall falls, Winterfell is the last major defense to stop the Others from making it to the southern part of the kingdom. The Starks defeated the Others at Winterfell during the last Long Night and the strong men manning the walls will likely have to do so again.

In a way, the duality of the Starks and their direwolves is mirrored in the Starks and the Strongs. The Starks are the Strongs and the Strongs are the Starks. This brings me to Jon’s dream that I mentioned earlier.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

The word strong is not used in the passage describing Jon’s dream but it doesn’t need to be for one to see how Ned’s teachings have taken root in him. He is the last man standing but he is a Stark, which means that he is also a Strong and so even though he is alone, he will defend the Great Wall and the wall of Winterfell. Note how he also sees himself as the Lord of Winterfell defending the wall.

One of the clues that pointed Ned to the truth about Cersei and Jaime was the blond hair of their three kids as well as Jon Arryn’s last words, “the seed is Strong.” Lysa took it to mean that her husband was talking about Sweet Robin but as Ned discovered, he was talking about the Baratheons always producing black hair children...including all of Robert’s bastards.

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell's, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well. He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

A man’s seed is his gift to his future generations and so Varamyr’s thought that the “gift was strong in Snow,” has similar meaning to the “seed is strong.” The strong seed of Jon’s ancestors is why he and his siblings are wargs.

There are many other instances in the books where the use of the word “strong” can now be seen to have double meaning because the knowledge of this probable connection between House Strong and House Stark. And it is not just in scenes with Jon. The inferences can be seen with all of the Stark children.

Now, I’m sure that there will be those who will argue that Ned’s quote points to Gendry as the “strong” character who will marry Sansa and to that I would simply say...NO! That argument is really not worth much more discussion than NO. Yes, the phrase absolutely identifies Gendry Mya and Robert’s remaining bastards as being from his loins. However, Gendry is not a point of view character and so we only get a brief mention of his arc from Arya’s point of view. And his arc is never at anytime tied to Sansa.

The daughter of Winterfell is not going to marry a character that is basically off the pages for most of the books. She will marry an important point of view character and the one who fulfills this role and whose own arc is closely tied to Sansa over and over is Jon Snow! The End!

#jonsa #jon x sansa #house stark #house strong

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my-arya-underfoot · 5 years

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Starklings post-war speculation (book based)

You’ve talked before about Westeros after the Long Night and war and also a bit about the Starks roles (Bran being King in the North rather than Arya or Sansa). How do you think the Starks will fit into whatever happens ‘after’?

Finally answering your question anon, sorry for the long wait :/

Going off the theory of the post-Long Night Westeros undergoing social reform and breaking up into separate kingdoms again (maybe held together by a central council or alliance of some sort) - how do the Starklings fit into it all?

Not to get too emotional, but our bb’s are going to change the world. GRRM has put Bran, Arya, Sansa and Jon on specific development arcs, each honing particular skills, and I think those skills will be instrumental in the roles they’ll take on in rebuilding Westeros.

Arya

Based on the books so far, I’d bet a lot of money on Arya ultimately taking on a leadership role championing the smallfolk. (Linking back to Westeros’ probable social upheaval).

Her arc is saturated with witnessing the abuse of commoners and the warping of justice; from Mycah to Harrenhal to the Brotherhood to opposing the Faceless Men’s philosophy.

They'd let the queen kill Lady, that was horrible enough, but then the Hound found Mycah....And no one had raised a voice or drawn a blade or anything, not Harwin who always talked so bold, or Alyn who was going to be a knight, or Jory who was captain of the guard. Not even her father.

Arya watched them die and did nothing. What good did it do you to be brave? There were no brave people on that march, only scared and hungry ones. Most were women and children.

She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth.

Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right.

GRRM seems to be setting her up a a representative of the smallfolk, pushing for a more just, egalitarian society and reforming oppressive laws. If a united council/leadership of sorts exists, then it’s entirely viable that Arya will be the one voicing the needs of the common people.

Imo, the role brings together all of Arya’s many strengths: a) being able to connect with and befriend anyone b) caring fiercely about justice and trying to take it into her own hands c) protecting the underdogs d) being a go-between/liaison between the highborn world she was born in and the commoners she became part of, e) travelling over a lot of Westeros and beyond.

(Maybe she’ll even take over the Brotherhood without Banners from her mother?? A group that was about helping the helpless but got warped by vengeance along the way – exactly what Arya is grappling with right now).

Also, worth mentioning Arya has lived outside of Westeros in Braavos, which has a different type of governing structure, giving her a broader perspective on ruling and society than most characters.

While she may be based in the North, given how much time Arya spent in the Riverlands – where the worst abuses of smallfolk and injustice took place – she may end up becoming a key figure there.

(…+ Gendry)

Moving more from speculation to wishful thinking – though not so wishful nowadays – it’s entirely conceivable Gendry would be involved in Arya’s endgame.

Gendry is one of the most prominent smallfolk characters, is vocal about his disdain of highborns and attracted to the early Brotherhood without Banners. Him being someone who helps Arya with her work and reforms would fit.

"Gendry, do you swear before the eyes of gods and men to defend those who cannot defend themselves, to protect all women and children.” - Arya, ASoS

(Plus, with a side of forge sex and gowns of golden leaves).

Book-wise, I don’t think Arya will become Lady of Storms End: Ruler of one kingdom and lady of a castle seems very limiting for Arya, she’s had no connections to the Stormlands thus far and it would be weird for her resolution to suddenly become subservient to Gendry’s inheritance. I still think it’s more likely that Edric Storm will get Storms End.

(The show is a different matter and D&D have devalued Arya so much it’s anyone’s guess where she’ll end up).

So that’s my call for Arya.

Sansa

With Sansa, as a recurring foil to Arya it would make sense if her role in Westeros as the flipside of her sisters’ – while Arya is reforming the underbelly of Westeros, Sansa has been built to work amongst high lords.

Over the series, we’ve seen her hone her skills in court, among nobles and in politics; and apprentice to Littlefinger’s in the art of manipulation:

Sansa felt that she ought to say something. What was it that Septa Mordane used to tell her? A lady's armor is courtesy, that was it. She donned her armor and said, "I'm sorry my lady mother took you captive, my lord." - ACoK

Tyrion led Sansa around the yard, to perform the necessary courtesies.She is good at this, he thought, as he watched her tell Lord Gyles that his cough was sounding better, compliment Elinor Tyrell on her gown, and question Jalabhar Xho about wedding customs in the Summer Isles. - Tyrion, ASoS

Sansa was asleep on her feet by then, wanting only to crawl off to her bed, but Petyr caught her by the wrist. "You see the wonders that can be worked with lies and Arbor gold?" - Sansa, AFFC

". . . Lord Nestor's claim to the Gates will suddenly be called into question. I promise you, that is not lost on him. It was clever of you to see it. Though no more than I'd expect of mine own daughter.""Thank you." She felt absurdly proud for puzzling it out...” - Sansa, AFFC

GRRM has indicated that Sansa is ideally suited for post-Long-Night politics, particularly in whatever network or council that’s put in place between kingdoms: Managing relationships between nations, negotiating treaties and agreements, smoothing over conflicts, brokering peace between parties; winning leaders over; image-management; the nitty-gritting politicking.

It would be satisfying if Sansa – who the world originally saw as nothing more than a pretty, airheaded wife-to-be – ends up doing the hard, complex, political brainwork.

In connection to all that, I honestly love the idea of Sansa as a Northern ambassador: She loves Winterfell but knows how to play the game in the South – so let her represent her kingdom and Northern interests to the rest of Westeros.

(Sansa seems to be heading towards becoming a politician akin to Tyrion or Littlefinger; while Bran, Dany and Jon have trained more for leadership and that is an important distinction and separate skillset).

(Again, this is book not show based, as the show is hammering us over the head with Sansa becoming ruler in the North/Lady of Winterfell, which…ok. I’ve talked before how unfortunately the writers have trampled over the other Starks siblings’ connections to their home to justify Sansa’s position).

Bran

All hail, King in the North, Lord of Winterfell, Bran the Rebuilder.

There are a lot of reasons why it makes sense for Bran to be the Stark rebuilding Winterfell and doing the day-to-day governing of its people:

He’s the one who’s spent the most time in the North; he’s the one we’ve actually seen being taught to rule as Lord of Winterfell; he’s the heir and first in-line; he’s connected to the deep, mystical heart of the North of the weirwood networks and greenseers, he has the Starkiest-of-Stark names of the former Stark Kings and legends.

Unlike Arya and Sansa, he hasn’t been to other parts of Westeros (apart from further North) and built as many relationships and learned about politics or dynamics in other places. He’s fully rooted in the North, Winterfell and its people.

There’s a much more detailed examination of why exactly Bran should be King in the North and Lord of Winterfell here, which says it much better than I can, but I don’t see how you can read these quotes, and think it will be anyone but Bran:

Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked spread out beneath him… It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know.” – AGoT

"Your notion about the bastard may have merit, Bran," Maester Luwin said after. "One day you will be a good lord for Winterfell, I think." – ACoK

“The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.” – AcoK

“You are only a boy, I know, but you are our prince as well, our lord's son and our king's true heir. We have sworn you our faith by earth and water, bronze and iron, ice and fire….we are your servants to command.” - ASoS

(I’m not expecting robot!Bran to get king/lordship in the show – D&D massacring his character and turning him into an emotionless, Google search bar is still imo one of the worst things they’ve done imo).

As for all the theories for Sansa (and more rarely Arya) becoming Queen in the North, I actually think that role is too limiting for both of them – they’ve travelled over Westeros and seem suited to having much wider role than just Northerners. That’s not to say the two of them– and Jon if he lives – couldn’t have a place in their home, be based at Winterfell and travel further afield; it doesn’t mean they couldn’t advice Bran or work for the good of the North; it doesn’t mean they would be Princesses of Winterfell. It’s just there’s a hell lot more foreshadowing for King Bran.

(…+ Meera)

So, if we’re going to have any Queen in the North, it’s gotta be Meera. The gods only know how much the Reeds deserve it and Bran is literally hearteyes already.

Jon (...+ Dany)

Much as it physically pains me to admit it, chances are Jon and Dany will die saving the world: As many have said, they’ve got ‘messiah’ written all over them. As GRRM has always said – in the end the throne doesn’t matter, the ultimate fight is about the living. So, for Jon and Dany, it makes sense their ultimate fate wouldn’t be getting the throne but ensuring there’s a Westeros left to rebuild at all.

The only thing that makes me doubt them kicking it, is the sheer amount of time GRRM has spent giving the pair leadership training (see above point with Bran) as Lord Commander and Queen of Meereen respectively. GRRM’s issue with wanting to justify having a ‘good ruler’ in the end and not just ‘they ruled wisely’ gives me a smidge of hope the two of them might make it.

So, playing a fun game of if they survive; they’d logically be the ones getting the different kingdoms to cooperate, managing a central council/alliance, leading change, and acting as symbols of peace and the future. With the upheaval and massive change Westeros would be facing, they’re both leaders who would be equipped to forge a new way.

Both of them have experience in upending old systems, ushering in new eras and struggling to make different groups cooperate – Jon with the Nights Watch making peace with the Free Folk, the Nights Watch and the North; and Dany in Meeren with the slaves and former slave-owners.

Of course, it didn’t go perfectly, but they were learning and sure as hell have more experience than anyone else in taking on the role of rebuilding Westeros and forcing newly-independent kingdoms to cooperate.

Again, it may be Daenerys’ “I want to break the wheel” is a clumsy way of the writers trying to set that up.

Bonus: Tyrion and Davos

I’d put Tyrion’s chances of survival above Jon and Dany’s, but way below Bran, Arya and Sansa’s. In the books it does seem likely he’ll be the third head of the dragon and will be joining Jon and Dany on their mission to martyrdom.

That said, if he does survive, like Sansa he’d be ideal to play a role on a centralized council.

Out of the main characters he’s the one who spent the most time doing actual politicking in Kings Landing; he’s recognised for his brain; the main character who’s been up-close with the inner workings of government and was excellent acting as Hand. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility he’d be able to flex all those muscles in forcing post-Westeros leaders to work with each other and manage the logistics of rebuilding the kingdom.

Preferably Davos will get to retire, raise his remaining kids and live a quiet life. But in adding to the social upheaval and how he’s played the role of bringing in a different perspective to Stannis’ court and moved from commoner to lord, I’d put him in the running of being one of the main voices and architects of post-war Westeros.

#asoiaf theory #asoiaf speculation #asoiaf ending

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joytoasheshq · 5 years

Photo

below is christine’s sample application for ned stark. applications won’t be posted in full with acceptances. this is to provide another example of what i’m looking for in applications. a big thank you to christine for providing this sample, and making me cry over papa wolf! hope this is helpful and enjoy!!

OOC.

name: Christine

age: 26

pronouns: they/them

timezone: EST

triggers: {omitted}

in the game of thrones you win or you die, would you be open to your character dying?: as much as the idea crushes me, it would feel DISHONEST to say no (and I’d be more than happy to play another character after Ned ofc)

anything else: n/a

IN CHARACTER.

full name: Eddard “Ned” Stark

gender + pronouns: nonbinary, he/him it’s only recent that Ned’s felt comfortable exploring his gender identity and sexuality; raised in a family of cops, there were certain standards of masculinity that were expected of him and he never felt fully comfortable opening that particular box of worms. but within a supporting and loving relationship with a woman he trusts entirely, he’s felt better about exploring that side of himself and admitting that he never fully fit into the boxes he tried to fit into when he was younger.

age & dob: 35, July 21, 1983

faceclaim: Yahya Abdul-Mateen II

personality: + he’s reliable, above all: he can be counted on to do what he says he will do, no matter what it is. it makes him easy to trust, easier to understand. straightforward and loyal to those he’s promised his loyalty to. + a compassionate person, he has an understanding and empathetic soul. always willing to listen, to provide a word of advice. x being honorable is a double-edged sword, a coin with two sides: it endears him to some, makes him valued by those who have reason to value him. but it also makes him easy to manipulate – he is not playing the game that everyone else seems to be playing, which means that more often than not he ends up a pawn. x as a father, a husband, a brother, and a friend, he is protective; he’s lost too many people not to be. he’ll defend those he cares about as far as he needs to in order to keep them safe. - with all that, though, comes a naive optimism that can be dangerous in a world like this. it’s not that he expects anyone to be as honorable as he is, not that he doesn’t understand that people lie, and cheat, and steal, and kill. he knows this better than anyone. but he sees no point in going on if he can’t have some kind of hope, can’t let himself see the best in people. - his morality is inflexible, with no shades of gray: there is what’s right and what is wrong. and he knows the world is not so simple– knows people do wrong things for right reasons and right things for wrong reasons, knows there is always a way to blur the line. but that blurring is a slippery slope, and it’s easier to keep focus on that simple binary of right and wrong and let everything else fall into place around it.

headcanons:

( trigger warnings: pregnancy complications, death )

1. His father is a cop. His father is a cop, and his father’s father is a cop, and his father’s father’s father was a cop before that. He grows up in the shadow of it, never a question in his mind of what he would grow up to become: the men in his family, they protect the city, they always have, and so will he, when he’s old enough. Just like his father. Just like his older brother does, a few years before he can.

High school, college, the police academy. He is a star student. He prides himself on being a just and honorable man, just like his father. Just like Brandon. He models himself after them in every fathomable way. He admires them. His father, chief of police. His brother, charismatic and well-loved and engaged to a woman he so clearly adores. They are his heroes: he lives happily in their shadow, feeling a little like a child among giants, like he’ll always be reaching up to try to be as tall as them, like he’ll always be tripping over the shoes they leave to fill.

When they die– both of them, at once, as if one wasn’t enough to shatter him into pieces, as if one wasn’t enough loss to have him grieving for a lifetime– when they die, trying to subdue the riots, to stop the chaos, he tries to fill their shoes. He becomes a part of things, not just a rookie cop but a voice for the people, or, for Robert maybe, or– god, but he gets lost in it. The violence, the chaos, the city in turmoil. It is impossible to see a clear way out, through the fog and the confusion and the grief.

He’s not proud of it. But at the end of the day, all he’s got is the people he has left – Benjen, Robert, Jon – and a determination to never let it happen again.

2. She’s dying, when he finds her. His sister, little Lyanna. She’s always been little Lyanna but he feels it now more than ever, holding her hand in bed, thin and shaking. Complications with a pregnancy he had no idea existed. Complications that an adequate doctor could have fixed, if they’d gotten there in time, if she’d given birth in a hospital where the doctors would have had files about her history of blood clotting, if someone had been there to catch the signs of a pulmonary embolism, if only, if only, if only. If only she hadn’t felt the need to run away, when a pregnancy test confirmed her fears. If only she had felt like she could tell anyone. But she’s dying, already, and he’s not a doctor; he’s barely even a cop, 23 years old and only six months on the force.

There’s nothing you can do, she says, her voice weak. It’s okay, it’s not your fault. Just– promise me something, please.

And he’d promise her anything, in that moment, his little sister, promise her the entire world and do anything he could to deliver. When the doula hands him her son– premature, too small, tiny hands gripping at nothing, tiny mouth searching blindly in the air for a mother to latch onto– he promises.

He leaves Dorne with the baby in his arms, and when the baby starts to cry, he finds that he is crying, too. Can’t stop himself. He has buried too many people, for his age, and all in a year. A father, a brother, a sister. He knows it isn’t true– knows there’s Benjen, still, knows there’s Robert, knows there’s Jon– but for a moment it feels like his world has shrunk down, and the only things left in it are himself and this baby boy and the snow falling around them.

He is a good man. He will be a good father. He will keep every promise to his sister he ever made. He will keep her child safe, call him his own. Tell whatever story he needs to, so that no one knows what Lyanna didn’t want them to know.

3. Cat is… a revelation. An unexpected surprise. He knew her, of course, before it all. Brandon’s girl. He’d looked forward to calling her a sister-in-law, once. She is bright and she is clever and she is kind and she is too much, for him, too good to be true. He’s… trying, as far as fatherhood goes, but he never meant to be a father at 23, at 24. He’s quit the force, living off the meager inheritance his father left behind until Jon is old enough to go to school, because he can’t bear the though of leaving his son alone, of hiring someone else to watch him, of doing anything that might separate them. Because what if something were to happen? What if he were to lose Jon, too?

He agrees to dinner with Cat because he’s always liked her. He’s never thought of her as anything other than Brandon’s girlfriend, Brandon’s fiancee. Never wanted to: they were so in love. Brandon was so happy. Brandon would have done anything for her. He agrees to dinner with Cat because he needs someone who is sharing in his grief, and because she says she knows a great babysitter who can help out for the night.

He doesn’t mean to fall in love.

But she’s not Brandon’s anything, anymore. But Brandon’s gone. And they get along in so much other than their grief. More than he expects. And dinner one time turns into dinner once a week, turns into nights spent together, turns into moving in… and Catelyn makes him a better man. Makes him a better person. Makes him feel like maybe he can actually do it all.

She’s the one who encourages him to start something new. To build something from the wreckage. And so he starts Stark Security – he’s got the skills he needs, after all, even if he isn’t willing to risk his life anymore. Even if he isn’t willing to risk his family.

And they start a family.

4. Fatherhood suits him, it turns out. First Robb and then Sansa, and then the twins so soon after. And Jon, of course, a few years older than them all, and growing up so well. Just entering his moody pre-teen years. Stark Security means he can sit behind a desk, keep a regular 9-5, pick the kids up from school and be home in time for dinner every night. He takes up cooking, old family recipes. He reads bedtime stories and helps kids out of baths and into fleece footie pajamas. His face is sore from smiling, his voice hoarse from laughing. His chest feels warm, and large, and full, when he hears his childrens’ voices.

The loss still hits him, sometimes, like a wrecking ball. He wants to tell his father about something funny Sansa said. He wants to show Brandon a picture of the twins. He wants big family cookouts on warm June evenings. He wants someone to tell him they’re proud of him.

But there are better things to fill the gaps, better balms to salve the wounds. His kids, they give him purpose, give him a reason to get up in the morning and try to be a better person every single day. And his family gives him something to fight for, something to protect. They make him want to make Westeros a better place again.

INTERVIEW

vi. do you feel fulfilled in life?

“I do. I really do. When I quit being a cop, I thought I might never feel that way again. You know how it is: you grow up around all that, you start to think there’s one right path towards fulfillment or whatever. But my kids– It’s worth everything else I’ve ever lost, just to have them. They make me feel fulfilled every day, even if they’re a handful sometimes.”

vii. have you ever lost someone you loved?

“Yeah,” he says, and it comes out more as an exhale than as a real word, hardly any voice behind it. Just the word is enough that he almost gets lost in it, the memories. Dad and Brandon’s funeral – one funeral, two caskets, and the way the sky opened up as soon as they’d been lowered into the ground like the world knew how impossible it would be to go on without them. Lyanna, and all the secrets she carried with her when she went, all on her own. Sometimes, he remembers it and he thinks for a minute it might break him. It might, except that he’s got people now who will help him keep going.

“Yeah, a couple a’ people. It’s– it sucks, doesn’t it?”

ix. who was your last text to, and what did it say?

“Let’s see,” he says, sliding his phone from his pocket and unlocking it with his thumbprint. Opens texts, scrolling back through one or two unanswered ones to the last one he sent… CATELYN 😍 displayed across the top of the screen, and a few messages in a row below it, hey babe omw home / picking up dinner want me to pick up anything else? / 😉 / maybe–

As he reads the messages that follow, he can feel his cheeks grow warm, blushing slightly. Maybe not the most appropriate series of messages to read out loud… He clears his throat, scrolls back one message father.

“It was to Robert,” he says, before reading it out loud: “The good donut shop or the cheap one?”

EXTRAS (OPTIONAL):

x. pinterest x. inspo tag & edits x. playlist

#lsrpg #lsrp #got rp #asoiaf rp #mature rp #sample app

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solis3clipse · 6 years

Text

Gendrya and its chances of becoming canon - part 1

this post contains spoilers from most of the seasons of Game Of Thrones

Gendrya, also known as the shipname of Arya stark and Gendry Baratheon, has become a quite popular pair in our fandom. In this masterpost i will try my best to list and discuss most of the reasons why it has a huge potential of becoming canon.

DISCLAIMER:

in no way shape or form am i going to force someone into believing that they're going to be a romantic pair in the following season. There's obviously a possibility of their relationship staying exactly the same; this is purely based on theories and real facts from the show.

The masterpost will provide you with information from the show, not the books. In all honesty, George Martin treated the ship more fairly than the show and respectfully gave them way more scenes, so to avoid messing up the whole post, i'm going to be speaking about the show!gendrya.

i'm going to be using some very interesting information from the blog of my good pal @jj-justwriteit. They make some very thoughtful points so definitely check out their blog if you're up for some great Gendrya discussions. Please keep in mind that there are some things you might have already heard of; and definitely correct me if i get something wrong.

Before meeting each other.

I think it is best to start from the very beginning, and by that i mean even before Arya and Gendry first met.

A very interesting theory i've been thinking about is Robert Baratheon who is obviously the father of Gendry, telling Ned that they would join their houses with marrying their children.

''I have a son, you have a daughter, we'll join our houses''

. The first thing you probably think of when reading this is Sansa and Joffrey who were supposed to marry each other and as Robert hoped, join the houses to bring peace. Though we all know how that ended,-Joffrey (who wasn't even Robert's son in the first place) ended up dying and Sansa's future took a whole different path to the point where you'd think her desire for marriage had completely disappeared. This might be them foreshadowing the potential future of Arya and Gendry. I'm not saying they'll get married, but i am saying that this could simply represent the development of their relationship in a romantic way. It would be sort of ironic to see them getting married since Arya had been strongly against it since the very beginning of the show. that leads us to the noticeable twists game of thrones has,- Ned died in the first season when no one expected him to, Robb didn't even get the chance to rule Winterfell when half of the fandom was convinced he was going to be the next king, Jon fell in love with daenerys which was not only never mentioned in the books, but was also rushed and happened very quickly (unlike Gendrya who had plenty of time to develop feelings for each other, they practically closed an important chapter of their lives while they were together); that being said, you can never really predict where Arya's path takes us next. The show always hits us with changes and whether they're good or bad, they're often very unexpected. If you ask me, Arya's story is one of those that has not yet ended and there is exactly that one twist missing that is going to wrap it all up. I believe that ''twist'' has something to do with Gendry. All the other questions in her storyline are answered,- she chose to remain her identity and not become no one, she got back to her family and proved she would never betray any of them, she chose to follow her childhood dream and became her own hero. The last part is love, i believe. And Arya will need to figure it out and battle with making important decisions one more time. Their ''slow burn'' romance as i like to call it has been leading up to that all this time and i'm hoping they will be able to fit it in and drop the bomb in the last season.

Bringing the attention to Gendry, his purpose and identity is really interesting if you think about it. Let's go way back and start from the main point of his role in the show. Gendry Waters is the Bastard son of Robert Baratheon, right? That's very clear when you observe how he acts, how he looks and even talks,-if he had been around earlier the king would instantly recognize him as his bastard kid because Gendry is a perfect definition of the name Baratheon. His appearance - dark, rough looking hair and beautiful blue eyes flawlessly portrays the house. Anyone from Cersei's children could not even compare to how much Gendry looked like his father. There are countless similarities which you can read more about on @jj-justwriteit 's blogif you're interested, but i'm going to swiftly turn back to out main topic to avoid confusion. If you take a minute to observe the plot, the show could've been perfectly fine without him. That came out harsh but don't get me wrong, - i love him to death and he's one of my favorites, he has in fact done very heroic, important stuff but realistically speaking since he isn't technically one of the protagonists, Gendry could've been easily replaced with any random character be it male or female, with someone like Podrick, without messing up the whole story. Instead the author strictly made him to be a bastard son of king Robert who would later meet the princess of Winterfell. See? the puzzle instantly fits. Not to mention that there were quite a few characters similar to Gendry in the show who died or were very close to dying while despite disappearing for a entire season, the boy still remained alive and received a big development from just a bastard boy who wasn't even aware of his identity and spent his life serving others, to Gendry, the son of King Robert Baratheon who befriended Arya's brother a.k.a our future king and placed a huge role in helping the queen make progress in the battle. There are characters that you'd never expect to lose, there are characters that you know will die. but there are also a few people in GOT that have big chances of making it till the end for various different reasons, i think Gendry is one of them. May i mention how they brought him back in the last season and made him play a huge role? The writers would not make Gendry stand out if he didn't have a future in game of thrones, period. He is important and his story isn't over so killing him would be BLOODY DUMB. You started his journey and made it more significant than it could've been, now it's your job to respect your own decisions and not act like Gendry was nothing to the show. Like mentioned above, he could've been replaced with literally anyone who would be less relevant but noo. It’s Gendry Baratheon. As you keep watching the show and analyse his role in Arya's life, there are so many things about his persona that just make sense. His name makes is easier for me to connect the dots and get to the point which just screams gendrya. and That's one of the things that convinces me that Gendry is going to pull through this and stay in the show till the end.

A very significant scene to me is also his first meeting with Jon. Many people were upset because he didn't mention Arya and i'm not gonna lie at first that left me feeling kind of bitter as well, but after investing into it more i managed to find possible explanations. I like to look at it from the bright side considering that the scene is so much more than just some boys interacting. Gendry's meeting with Jon was done in a way that strangely seemed too much like Ned and Robert's and i can bet my whole life that it was done this way on purpose. It didn't feel too ''formal'', serious or tense, which is what you would normally expect since Jon is literally the legal king of the seven kingdoms. remember Ned and Robert meeting in the very first season? It went exactly like Jon and Gendry’s; They started off with a slightly tense atmosphere until shortly after it transformed into them laughing and hugging. the chemistry between the characters was undoubtedly there,- they jokingly made fun of each other and instantly got along which speaks a lot about his future relationship with the Starks; name any other character Jon talked to in such a friendly, ''domestic'' way as if they had known each other since forever. If Gendry left such a great first impression on Jon, that means there's a clear possibility of him being in contact with not only him but the others as well. and by others yes, i mainly mean Arya. Why would he want to become good pals with Jon? Because he's Arya's brother. He wants to make up for the fact that he was part of the reason they got separated in the first place and get as close to her as possible. As for him mentioning the girl, none of us know what was going on in Gendry's head and that's why there are so many thoughts and theories about this. Probably an opinion closest to reality is that as the fandom agrees,- Gendry might've thought Arya was dead. Obviously after being seperated for quite a long time plus Arya completely disappearing from Gendry's life, he would think she wasn't alive anymore. It seems logical. Even if you don't agree with that particular version, Gendry never really got a chance to ask about her either. Once he joined the others to help out on their mission, clearly all they were focused on was the duty, therefore i hightly doubt D&D would give us the fanservise and focus on anything else than the white walkers. If you think about it, all they discuss throughout the seventh season is the plan and how to accomplish it. Rescued from serving people he didn't want to serve at all, Gendry gave it his all to concentrate on correcting his mistakes, which is the best excuse for this situation. He put off any of his personal issues and wishes to devote himself to saving the world legitimately, meaning he never let himself catch a break and did whatever he could to stay right beside Jon. The boy prevented himself from expressing his emotions which is comprehensible,- even if he didn't think Arya was dead, i reckon Gendry wouldn't dare to ask about her when it was his first proper interaction with Jon, she was said to be his sister after all and the last thing he would want is to make things uncomfortable and awkward between them. Both reasons are quite coherent, believe whichever you want. His commitment towards Snow perfectly showed how much he cares. Not only about the people, Jon or the world. But how much he cares about helping out someone whose sister meant so much to him.

Gendry (still) is in the process of realizing that hey, he could be suitable for his highborn lady after all and if they get the confirmation from Jon(or Daenerys) who will probably become the king, there's no problem in them being together. It's apparent that Daenerys strongly dislikes Robert, but she was the one trying to prove that the child should not be punished for their parents' mistakes, which speaks a lot about how she might've reacted. By now it's obvious that she isn't cruel nor is she stupid. If Gendry and Arya did get together, i personally see no possibilities of Daenerys denying their relationship. Even if by some chance she did, Jon would proceed to convince her to make it happen because he would be perfectly aware of the fact that it could make Arya happy. Besides may i bring this back,- Gendry left a very good impression on him which assures Jon that his sister would not be in any sorts of danger. I firmly believe he trusts him by now. What i'm trying to get across is that in my opinion this just proves that Gendry shares his part of the story with Arya, that's why they are destinied to end up together. it just makes sense.

Lets move on to Arya before and after meeting Gendry. Unlike the boy, Arya did get screentime before meeting him since she's one of the main characters so it's easier to discuss what changes i spotted in her persona. In the first season, up to until the third one we see a tough little girl dreaming about becoming a warrior and being just like her father. It's obvious that she did not even want to imagine her and marriage and continouesly denied the idea, even making fun of Sansa for liking Joffrey. I think that's quite normal and does not mean that she is incapable of falling in love with someone. Arya was very young in the first season, still practically a tiny child so i think it's not surprising that she thought marriage was stupid. In no way am i saying that she suddenly changed her point of view when she grew up, but Arya had a very strict opinion about even considering liking someone romantically let alone spending her entire life with them and that's usually how most children think. Arya, around like 11 years old, would never admit anything like that. That's why i'm now emphasizing on the fact that her behavior and actions drastically changed later on, a very good example is her checking out Gendry's naked torso in the third season which i'm going to discuss more later. This sums up her growth quite well, she went from the kid who was convinced she was never going to dedicate any time to love, to a girl with her first crush. As i mentioned above, her and Sansa could be on the path of switching their roles. Sansa is either going to lose interest in getting married or finally find a good partner for her(which i doubt will happen to be completely honest) and Arya falls in love with Gendry despite starting off with different expectations.

during the time period when her and Gendry got separated, there isn't many scenes with Arya mentioning him either. Believe me i was hoping for gendrya the whole time as well but just like with his situation, i was able to quickly understand the case. Arya's storyline throughout season 6 was very important for her to get where she is now. I believe it was essential to make her go through all that stuff to prove a point: It was not for Arya. Besides the way i personally see it is that In the gap between their reunion, there really was no time for them to be mourning over each other's loss. Arya tried to become someone else and forget everything from her past. It didn't work out. She failed to become no one for a reason, she decided to keep calling herself Arya Stark for a reason. If her story contained no love,- be it platonic or romantic whatsoever, i don't think she'd bother to give up so easily OR come back to Winterfell. This may seem like a reach to some people, but for me it makes complete sense,- Arya came back because Joaquin's path didn't cross hers. The life she thought was perfect for her didn't turn out to be suitable at all and i'm glad she was able to realize that early enough. No matter how much she changed, she belonged (still does) to Winterfell from the very beginning, there were certain people in her life that she could not let go. The writers made her change her mind and come back because there was so much more waiting for her there, because that leads us to what comes next.

other ships

some people seem to ship Gendry and Arya with other characters and I'm certainly not here to fight them because of that, but for my fellow gendrya stans, i'm going to try and explain why there's no chances of either of them ending up with someone else. I guess what you could call ''the most popular ships besides gendrya'' are sansa and Gendry and Arya and Joaquin. Let's start with strongly denying the first one.

I don't know where to even begin because i find it challenging to comprehend what gave people reasons to ship Sansa with Gendry. On a very simple note,-they haven't even met. They have NOT interacted while Gendrya has had a major build up since the third season. When it is seemingly clear that both of them started gradually developing feelings for each other, i can't imagine Sansa proceeding to literally betray her sister and try to steal her man, lol. She grew up, became more mature and as i mentioned earlier, probably lost a big part of her interest in romance. I personally can only imagine Sansa hyping up their relationship and teasing Arya about how in love she is. Hear me out,- the writers have made tons of questionable decisions throughout the years of shooting the series, but i believe this is where they cross the border. They are perfectly aware of the fact that making Sansa and Gendry canon would stir up drama, not only because people ship gendrya, but also because it does not make sense. It would be wrong, rushed and very, very weird turn. Gendry has never expressed any interest in Sansa nor has he even metioned her.

As for Joaquin and Arya, i think i am able to get why people like the pair, though in no way do i encourage anyone to do so because it will never happen, obviously. Do i believe that Arya loved Joaquin? No. I personally see them as two individuals who had a very weird friendship connecting them. Arya never really had friends and Joaquin was one of the first people she dared to refer to as such, so of course she would be shown expressing some type of platonic feelings towards him, for instance her choosing him as her teacher or that one time she genuinely got scared, thinking he had died. Joaquin and Arya's friendship was one big rollercoaster which i'm struggling to fully figure out to this day. Probably the only aspect i'm completely sure about is that they weren't in love. Both of them knew they had found someone with similar goals and personality so obviously they were left on good terms and managed to even work together for some time. Joaquin taught Arya stuff that gave her a different view on certain stuff and more experience which came out quite useful in the following episodes. The two of them were never destined to be together and Joaquin's death was one of the things that proved that. Almost every pair in Game of thrones has a mutual connection, great chemistry and are visibly suitable for each other, however Arya and Joaquin never had that. There was not a bit romance in their scenes and they had no development in that terms whatsoever.

We already know Gendry has eyes on Arya and only.

That being said, anyone can ship what they want, but once again,-this is for gendrya shippers who think that either of the ships mentioned above have any potential of becoming canon. No they don't. I'm pretty positive that the author and the creators of the show would never do that to us.

Their scenes

As mentioned in the top of this post, George Martin spoiled us and included quite a few moments of Gendrya in the books. If you've read the series there's NO way you didn't interpret their relationship as a romantic one just because it's clearly coded that way. Like i promised i'm not going to be going in details about why George is amazing, but it will surely take more effort to analyse the moments from the show untill i manage to get every detail of like the three scenes we got written down and examined.

Starting from the very first scene we saw them together in. I have so many thoughts about it. We all know Arya and Gendry are incredibly badass together or separated and that scene was a very good example of how well they work together. The bull and the wolf,-they're a perfect team and it seems as if the writers wanted to get that across immediately once they had met.

I adore the first scene. Arya gains the courage to stand up for herself despite two strangers probably scaring the shit out of her trapped at a place she knows nothing about. As she finds the energy within herself to stand up and point Needle towards hotpie's chin, forcing him to steadily step back, Gendry joins from behind and threatens the boy to leave Arya alone. What i love the most about the scene is Gendry's bitter words mixed with humor (*insert his sentence here*) and the way he defended the innocent kid. It already gives you a general idea of how lovely and courageous his personality is, leaving the best first impression for a character if you ask me. The scene is done so well in the show, he doesn't even think twice before scolding hotpie and shrugging it off shortly, treating Arya quite decently. As if he already knew he was dealing with a princess.

look at them.

Now this is a tricky thing to discuss, though one of my personal headcannons that can potentially be very true, is that show!Gendry knew Arya was a girl from that exact scene. What i mean is that he didn't even need to try and figure it out since he knew in the first place, while others were confused even after finding out she wasn't a boy. ''do you think i'm as stupid as the rest of them?'' he says once he sees her surprised face after admitting that Arya had done a poor job lying to him; and it's true, he isn't. Gendry is incredibly smart despite not being perfect at reading and writing which by the way, was not his fault at all. Every scene with Gendry in it in the show truly does make him seem more intelligent and clever than the people he mentioned. It speaks a lot about his difference from the other boys and really makes him stand out; also adds another reason to the list of why they'd be a perfect pair. Despite being raised as a bastard and having to go through so much rough stuff at such a young age, Gendry inherited some of the best traits of a Baratheon and grew up to be a bright man. He is quite strong and fit physically, but he is also competent and wise which if you ask me, makes him perfect for Arya. It's her. There's no way she would fall in love with someone less cool than her, so i think it's safe to say that Gendry is the only one right for her.

Moving onto the scene where he finds out about Arya's true identity, that one is definitely one of my favorites. There's so much that needs to be said about it because it describes so many parts of their relationship. It's a good portrayal of their bond, trust, chemistry.

I love how Arya didn't expect him to find out about her at all and tried her best to hide her shocked reaction the first time he confronted her about it. Gendry was very casual and subtle about it, just sliding the topic into their small banter as if it hadn't even been a huge deal and i find that endearing in a way. It expresses how mature he was at the age of 15, any other boy would most likely freak out and act as if they'd seen a miracle.

Arya could've easily rejected him and found more ways to lie in order to convince him otherwise, yet not only did she come clean, but also trusted him enough to admit who she really was. That was an another clear sign of ''they met and instantly found the courage within themselves to trust each other even with their deepest secrets''. Of course the boy was very honest with her as well; Tell me Gendry apologizing for peeing in front of her and claiming he should've been calling her ''M'lady'' wasn't the cutest thing you saw throughout that season. What left me thinking is how he believed her immediately. Sure, Arya's explanation seemed pretty legit, but i doubt anyone else would let themselves to trust her that easily. He gained much more respect for Arya after finding out that the person he had been talking to wasn't just any other girl but the highorn lady of Winterfell. I love how Arya is already comfortable with playfully punching the guy because he had called her a lady; and the dialogue in that scene is hilarious and well done. They're already acting like best friends despite not even knowing each other that much and the apparent flirty tension often gets mixed within their conversations which i find very lovely. It's so sweet how the angry bean Arya makes Gendry full on giggle and look up at her with the most ''in love'' look in his eyes. That right there, is good acting.

I bet Gendry had a hard time hiding his shock when finding out that the highborn lady of Winterfell was that badass and fearless instead of a bit more girly and petite as he would've expected. And i'm strongly convinced that was the thing about Arya catching his attention and making him realize how different, stronger and better she was than any of the women he had met before.

One of my absolute favorite scenes is Arya sneakily checking out her man. The scene is so incredibly iconic and remarkable that it most likely popped up in your head instantly. That's when any viewer immediately realizes that the writers' intention was to show Arya's developing first crush.

As Gendry trains, fully focused on his weapon, Arya literally glances up and down his body with that hungry ass look in her eyes. sorry. had to be said. It's the truth.

We had definitely never seen the girl impressed on that level by a man in any previous (or following) seasons. Arya was just a tiny girl and as she grew up she started feeling different emotions, therefore i think it's quite obvious that we got to experience that with her in the said scene. Maisie's acting was so damn good. She managed to portray the exact same feelings Arya had perfectly which just added more reasons for people to ship the pair.

The most important scene in my opinion is of course, ''i can be your family''. I'm going to begin with firmly emphasizing on Maisie's comment about the scene.

Rolling stone: she obiously has family on her mind in this episode. But when she tells Gendry ''i can be your family'', it sounds like she might mean something very different - even if she herself barely realizes it yet.

I really love the way this was put because they tried to avoid any major spoilers, but gave us higher chances of finding out more about how Arya feels towards Gendry. Bless them for bringing this up. It's clear that everyone, be it people from the fandom or outside interprets their relatioship as a romantic one.

Here's what Maisie answers:

''At first i read it as ''You can come to winterfell, i'll show you how everything goes, and you can come and sit at the table with us'', i thought it would be a bit like Theon. But when i was doing the scene, director Alex Graves said ''when you say that last line, 'i can be your family', say it like 'i love you'''. And that's the take that they used.

To this day i'm still struggling to believe that's real, but it is. Maisie practically said that Arya never saw Gendry as a brother (like Theon) but as something else. Something more. With that exact words she realized she had certain feelings towards Gendry that made it so difficult to let him go and leave. I can't help but mention their acting one more time because it was absolutely phenomenal. Game Of Thrones has something for every type of viewers, Fantasy, adventure and romance,-that's one of the reasons it's so popular. That being said, we've had tons of different pairs with their love stories; The ones who ended up dead, the ones who survived. One aspect connecting all of them is the story of how they met and fell in love. Now this is a very bold thing to say so not many people might agree with me, but i personally think that Gendrya, the ship that hasn't even become canon yet, is the most romantic and epic yet, it leaves us with so much feels and want. I never felt so much love and passion towards any other ship from the show and it's very apparent to me why. I don't remember any couple from GOT that had such a slow burn, amorous and well developed plot. Gendrya does. They have so much potential. Both Maisie and Joe understand that and they give it their all to make Gendrya so obvious. In the said scene, Gendry looks like he is legitimately holding back tears as he rejects Arya's offer and decides to stay. He seems like as if he's having second thoughts and doubting his choices, there's so much pain depicted on his face and yet he doesn't have enough time to reconsider. Maisie does say the last like just like ''i love you''. There's indeed much more said than just ''come to Winterfell and stay with us'', it's her trying to express unconditional love and fondness. Arya is aware of her feelings towards Gendry and by the time she fully realized that, she had to leave. Just like Gendry, Arya looks just as upset and hurt. Looks like in that moment, it took all her willpower to turn around and go.

A classic Gendrya moment is her being immensely worried when the red woman took Gendry, disappearing without any explanations. I can't get over how mad she got and never stopped worrying about him. ''I don't talk to traitors'' CAN YOU BELIEVE HER. Arya was beyond aggrieved to the point where she even refused to talk. Her expression when Gendry gave in and they basically tied him up so he wouldn't be able to escape was priceless. I've seen the scene about a hundred times and it gets me every. damn. time. A simple question could sum up how much she cares for him,-have you ever seen Arya so worried and hurt about something (besides Ned's death because DUH) throughout the season? no. She learned how to control her emotions and literally never show them, but the agony was so visible on her face in that moment. That's not surprising since her friend got taken away to a place she knew nothing about, but again, i've never seen Arya so furious. She was worried sick and probably was ready to do anything to bring him back.

Gendry's Jealousy

Hoo boy. Don’t even get me started. It’s a popular headcanon in the fandom that Gendry is a jealous man when it comes to Arya, but i’d say we could freely call it canon since it’s painfully obvious that he’d kill any other man if he saw them kissing his girl. lol Emphasizing on the scene where Arya was talking about Joaquin; Gendry, visibly startled, literally asks: ‘you need him?’

Now obviously he didn’t know why Arya might’ve needed the stranger and that’s one of the reasons he got so uncomfortably surprised. The way Joe acts out the scene, it does seem like Gendry looks very uneasy and actually kind of pissed? rewatch the scene and tell me i’m wrong. Even before getting together the boy wants to make sure he has no competitors and that’s purely because he loves her so much. He would obviously never be controlling around Arya, but he would make sure to subtly but not really remind everyone that she was very much taken. It’s just how he is. I imagine Arya finding his behavior very cute and just laughing about it every time she’d notice him getting mad because of something so irrelevant. You know Gendry doesn’t actually have any reasons to be jealous, right?

I don’t know if we get more scenes of Gendry being jealous, but there sure are slight chances of that happening since he’s most likely going to reunite Arya and have tons of screentime with her. At this point i’ve stumbled across more than approximately 5 posts of people mentioning how Maisie and Joe were spotted filming together so i’m pretty sure we’re getting something. There are lots of expectations but who knows what might happen?

forgesex2019.

there has been a theory going around about Gendry and Arya's reunion which i personally really like. It's what they deserve and it's what we've been craving ever since we got to know them. I think it's a very logical explanation of the end for their relationship. @jj-justwriteit is literally the best at discussing how it could go so it would be great if you'd read here headcanons, but i'll talk about it here as well. Lots of other pairs got their moments. They even managed to fit Jonerys and their sex scenes in the last scene, so i have high hopes for this. As my friend exclaimed in one of her posts, forgesex is most likely going to happen which i believe on a high level. So far it's a headcanon, but it will hopefully become canon in the final season. If anyone is still worried about the age difference (which is literally just five years), both of them are grown up, nearly adults. There's literally nothing to worry or argue about since Gendrya isn't the only pair with age difference. Drogo and Daenerys? She was about 14 years old when she lost her virginity but people shipped her with Khal regardless. Gendrya is just pure and completely normal, non toxic. They're very allowed to do whatever they want without it seeming weird. period. Arya isn't a child anymore.The way i personally imagine forgesex is WILD. I mean imagine a Baratheon and a Stark in love, who by the way, haven't seen each other for ages so the passion, love, want all of that building up in them is going to burst into flames and boom. Clothes literally ripped, on the floor, hands on each other and kisses everywhere. It would be the most epic scene any other pair has had. I imagine their reunion would be calm and just full of love at first. It's a clichee thing to describe but Gendry would see her first and softly mutter her name, thought loudly enough for her to hear, Arya would flinch at the familiar voice and swiftly turn around, seeing him. I already know Maisie is going to kill this. She has been great at characterizing Arya's intentions and actions, so when they reunite, it's going to be good. No matter what, it's going to be outstanding. I feel it.I can't WAIT to see Arya, Sansa and Jon meeting Gendry altogether. Imagine the flustered girl trying to hide her blush while Jon, confused attempts to find out how her sister knows Gendry. Sansa would know instantly and jokingly tease Arya later.Back to forgesex, can you imagine them getting some time fo themselves and just going at it. It would be a one big sloppy mess but at the same time for them it'd be very special and beautiful. By now Gendry already knows that he's a Baratheon so he allows himself to not hold back, which will be the result of him pining her against a wall and. well, you know the rest. One thing i'm absolutely sure about is that Arya would still have to initiate the process and strike first. Gendry notices that yes, she is in fact sure about this and wants the exact same thing, so he would start playing along. Gendry knows he has a gorgeous body, okay. Besides Joe dempsie hasn't been working out for NOTHING. We will get more naked Gendry and it will be for Forgesex.

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i probably missed a lot of details and forgot stuff, so if anyone reads any of this at all, a part two will be added to the whole masterpost! this was just a very quick recap slash analyzing the ship so if anyone wants me to get even more in depth and write all my feelings and predictions, simply let me know.

a huge thank you to @jj-justwriteit ! you inspired me to even start this masterpost. I could never discuss this stuff as well as you do, please check them out and send love and gendrya in the ask box <3

#gendrya #arya stark #gendry baratheon #game of thrones

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asknightqueendany · 5 years

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Whenever I’ve seen u hate on Sansa you always point out her trusting baelish in s7 and her behavior with the Karstarks. Both were bad decisions but the reasons make sense. Karstarks- Sansa went through hell with Ramsay and she I think she wants to be strict making sure that the north knows there are consequences for their actions should they turn on her. Deep down she probably knows two children can’t hurt her much but since she’s been betrayed a lot and in the worst ways- she’s very paranoid.

Part 2- she is just falling into the bad habit of being overly paranoid. Next her trusting baelish- Sansa always ever since s2 knows that baelish is not trustworthy but she never had anyone else that seemed willing to actually take her home. Yes he betrayed her but at that point it had become a habit to trust him and to be manipulated by him. Dany took 7 seasons to acknowledge that drogo raped her. Sansa took 7 seasons to finally realize that baelish will NEVER be on her side.

Part 3- a lot of ppl also bring up the way she acted with the lords when they spoke abt Jon. Sansa has never been seen as anything but a pawn and now she’s actually valued by the lords so it went straight to her head. Also she did explain that the northern lords are always shifty and that she needs there support in the wars to come so she can’t anger them! I love all the asoiaf ladies and I think the reason some may not like Sansa is bc it’s harder to get inside her head and understand.

Separate ask but also about Sansa so I’m combining them (Anon 2):

You don’t have to like Sansa but if you ever become part of the Sansa fandom.. not all of us hate dany or hate every character besides Sansa. Everyone I follow loves Sansa and Dany and especially loves Sansa and Arya. Yes ppl ship jonsa (I personally don’t) and most ppl who ship jonsa dislike Dany but a lot of ppl that like Sansa don’t even ship jonsa. There are lot of vocal jonsa fans but that fandom is VERY small.

Okay. I am so tired of talking about Sansa on this blog. Why do her supporters continue asking me about her? My opinions of her have not changed. The first 3pt ask did not made me change my opinions about her. And I severely disagree with everything the first asker wrote. Surely Anon 1, you had to have know I’d deconstruct your argument in my answer, right? So are we to have a back and forth of you sending me anons in regards to Sansa, and me continuing to dig my heels in about her because I firmly believe where I stand on here and have canon to back it up? It’s kind of exhausting.

I will answer these questions today. But I ask that people stop sending me questions about Sansa. I don’t like her. I have never liked her. I have never wanted to be in the “Sansa” fandom. I don’t enjoy watching scenes with her character in them. I didn’t enjoy reading her chapters in ASOIAF. And I don’t want to discuss her character anymore. I don’t even enjoy comparing her to Daenerys and don’t see why so many people do because they are very different characters with very different stories and journeys but since her rabid stans (not the non-rabid ones) hate Daenerys and always make Sansa-Dany comparisons, I’m forced to do so also to refute the wrong and hateful assumptions made about Dany.

But from now on, I’m going to try to refrain from talking about Sansa as much as possible because...I really don’t want to and don’t like to. So again, please no more asks about her.

Anon 1: You admit Sansa is overly paranoid and that Sansa likely knew the Karstark and Umber kids wouldn’t hurt her and blame her paranoia on Ramsay and say her “bad decisions” as you call them - trusting Baelish and not trusting the Umber and Karstark kids - make sense.

Whoa, there’s a lot to unpack there.

Let’s start with Ramsay - Sansa is paranoid because of Ramsay (and likely all her other tormentors - Joffrey, Cersei, and Lysa). But who put Sansa in that position with Ramsay? And the position with Lysa? BAELISH. If Baelish hadn’t kissed Sansa out in the open where Lysa could see, then Sansa’s life wouldn’t have been threatened by Lysa in the first place.

It’s almost as if Baelish did it on purpose so he had an excuse to kill Lysa and further endear himself to Sansa. Lysa comes across as crazy. She nearly kills Sansa. Baelish steps in and “saves” Sansa. But Baelish only saved Sansa from the threat that HE opened her up to.

AND Baelish didn’t need to kill Lysa. She calms down once he tells her he’s only ever loved one woman. He could have continued lying to her but he wanted to get her out of the way so he killed her.

Sansa learns about Lysa being the one to kill Jon Arryn on Baelish’s orders. She learns that it was Baelish’s idea for Lysa to send the letter to Catelyn that it was the Lannisters who killed Jon when really it was Lysa, thereby starting the conflict between Stark and Lannister. Baelish doesn’t kill Lysa because he just doesn’t want her around anymore and doesn’t want to deal with her. He kills her because she knows too much. AND NOW SANSA KNOWS TOO.

Doesn’t this sound familiar? It’s just like with Ser Dontos. Dontos knew too much and was a drunk - Lysa knew too much and was not of sound mind. Sansa has witnessed Baelish killing both these people who know too much of his shady dealings and yet...she still keeps him around. WHY???

He’s also the one who sold her to Ramsay Bolton. Saved her from monsters who murdered her family and gave her to other monsters who murdered her family. Even if Ramsay was a stand up guy...Roose still plunged a knife into Robb Stark’s heart. Her father-in-law would be the man who killed her brother. That’s all kinds of fucked up.

And it’s all because of Baelish.

Knowing all this about Baelish, Sansa keeps him as her ONLY confidante. She doesn’t even seek Maester Wolkan’s council! The man who is MEANT to council and serve the Lord/Lady of Winterfell!!! We’ve only got one scene of the two of them together and Sansa is telling Wolkan what to do, she’s not asking for his advice. Wolkan would have been a much more neutral and wiser advisor and yet, Sansa never seeks his advice. Not on what to do about the Northern Lords, not on what to do about Arya - WHICH IF SANSA HAD CONFIDED IN WOLKAN ABOUT THE ARYA SITUATION AND THE LETTER SHE WOULD HAVE SNIFFED OUT BAELISH’S PLOT THAT MUCH QUICKER!!!!!!!! FFS I’m getting so mad about this. Wolkan was a man of the Citadel, sworn to the castle he served, sworn to HER. And she never sought his advice. Damnit this makes me so mad. How can anyone justify this? How can anyone say Sansa’s mistrust of people in general would mean she turns to the man she’s seen kill two people because of wanting to keep his secrets safe and not trust the man who’s sworn to serve her.

If Sansa is so goddamn mistrustful, she should have kicked Baelish to the curb. Not kept him in her presence whispering in her ear 24/7. How could she not suspect him of trying to play her? HOW???

Moving on....

On to Alys Karstark and Ned Umber. You say this was a bad decision but one that made sense for what Sansa’s gone through. I call bullshit. Alys and Ned are meant to be portrayed as children, Alys possibly of an age with Sansa, but Ned clearly much younger.

However, Alys’s age doesn’t really matter because Sansa treats her and Ned the same. She wants to kick them out. Anon 1, you say this is because Sansa wants the North to know what happens to people who betray her - which, hello, I’m surprised you even worded it like that because that’s usually the kind of accusation that gets hurled at Daenerys. So you’re saying Sansa is vengeful? She wants her people to fear her? Because that is ruling with fear. Making her people afraid of the consequences if they cross her and making an example of two innocent children - that’s ruling by fear. I don’t know how people can see it any other way.

And Sansa, who was a child with the label of “traitor’s daughter” after Ned’s whole ordeal, should know how children can often get caught up in their parent’s political mishaps. While she wasn’t forced from her home, she also couldn’t go back to her home because it was taken from her family. And yet, knowing what she went through, she wants to do the same thing to Ned Umber and Alys Karstark. I’m saying it was a bad decision...and it didn’t make any sense.

The people Sansa really should have been critical of and kept a watchful eye over - were the Lords who were directly involved with not coming to House Stark’s aid. Manderly, Glover, Cerwin. They were the ones who truly turned their backs on House Stark. Ned and Alys however are innocent, weren’t the ones who betrayed the Starks (it was their fathers who are now dead) and they both showed up to court at Winterfell when they were called to do so! Ned and Alys left their homes and went to Winterfell - likely at Jon’s command - knowing there was a possibility they may be going to answer for their father’s crimes. But they dutifully went anyway. Ned and Alys just by being at Winterfell in 7x01 rather than holding up in their castles fearing the Starks - shows way more loyalty and faith than what Manderly, Glover, and Cerwin did before the Battle of the Bastards. This has nothing to do with Sansa’s previous experiences with betrayal and Ramsay’s savagery and whatnot. It’s just plain ignorance and stubbornness. And it may have earned her enemies in Ned and Alys should the North get divided between her and Jon (not that it ever would, but just saying).

Now, Anon 2

As stated, I don’t want to be in the Sansa fandom and don’t care. However, I think you’re severely mistaken when saying the Jonsa fandom is SMALL. They’re not. They’re all over the place on Tumblr and have pretty much taken over the Sansa Stark tag here. I honestly don’t know how her fans who are not Jonsas or don’t hate everyone else, Dany included, can even operate on this site because of all the bile they spew. I truly feel bad for the Sansa fans who are kind and enjoy other characters and don’t post hate. I really do. I don’t know how you guys stay sane. It seems like an even more difficult part of the fandom to reside in than being a Daenerys stan to be honest. But I want no part of it. I am a Daenerys blog, a Daenerys stan. I love other characters, but Sansa isn’t one of them - though I will acknowledge her wins and achievements when it is appropriate because I am not so lowly that I think everything Sansa does is a mistake and try to hate on her all the time. I can see when she’s done good and has a win and I will celebrate her wins with the rest of the fandom because I love Game of Thrones and ASOIAF and if Sansa has a win, then that’s great.

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janiedean · 6 years

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But why do you hate Cersei that much? Is it because you are hardcore JamiexBrienne shipper? (Classic)

… this question was fairly fine until the classic, which denotes a certain passive-aggressiveness typical of the usual cersei stan so excuse me if instead of getting a nice answer I might have toned down a bit you’re getting all the ugly truth - next time consider not implying that I’d hate a character just because it’s in the way of my ship, thank you, since I tend to actually multiship and I don’t hate jeynew for being technically an obstacle to my main ship and so on. but okay. you wanna know? let’s go in order,

spoilers: this is gonna be ugly, I am not going to hold back any venom and so if you like cersei you’re welcome to not read this. I warned you.

one: classic. my dear anon, I’ll tell you a secret: 80% of the jb fandom actually likes cerse. I’m in the minority. most people I know who ship jb either also ship jc or like cersei as a villain/as the horrid person she is because they enjoy a well-written villain. i don’t, but most *hardcore jb shippers* actually LIKE cersei. if then you take ‘she’s horrible but I love her character’ as people hating her then it’s your goddamned problem.

two: I actually loathed her abusive, controlling, manipulative and murdering ass way before brienne even showed up in the book let alone reading asos.

NO, REALLY.

three: I find cersei a technically very well-built and written character. no, really.

four: too bad that if there’s one thing I hate in fiction is incompetent villains, and if there’s three kinds of people I hate irl it’s a) people who think they’re so much better than the others, b) people who use person X who loves them as an emotional punching bag/their own servant without realizing what’s wrong with it, c) people who don’t accept responsibilities of their actions. rings a bell?

ah, right.

five: I find cersei’s povs utterly, terribly and fucking boring. okay, she’s insane, okay, she’s completely out of this world, okay, she’s great in her being completely insane and wanting to rule, okay, she’s a great villain, I found it amusing for one chapter and then I fell asleep. I can’t care less to be in the head of a narcissist asshole who thinks the world is an extension of herself and digs her own grave while blaming everyone else for her shortcomings and not even getting it when she’s directly confronted with it.

six: cersei is a fucking disgusting human being. and before y’all go like BUT ROBERT, I’m just gonna say that I am in no way, shape or form required to be interested in someone who threw a 12 year old into a well because said person dared say she had a crush on her brother when she also was twelve herself. like. okay, maybe for some people she’s interesting, to me that’s child psychiatrist material.

seven: I have also absolutely no fucking interest in an abusive fuck who spent her entire life actively or not actively trying to prevent jaime from actually having an identity separated from hers or who sexually molested her other brother while he was in the crib and justifies it with WELL HE’S A MONSTER. no, fuck you.

eight: an abusive fuck who also thinks she’s her father and couldn’t do politics if they hit her in the face. I mean, I actually like roose as a character and I don’t hate him even if he actively put a knife inside my actual favorite character’s heart because a) he’s not an incompetent fuck, b) he knows when you should not do horrid stuff because it’s not politically convenient, c) just wanted to rule his damned land and isn’t going out of his way to mess shit up jUST BECAUSE HE HAS THE POWER. cersei is just that, all along, and I can’t give a fuck about it.

nine: I have absolutely zero sympathy for 99% of her plights - at most I can give her that marrying robert was miserable, but OMG I AM A WOMAN IT PREVENTS ME FROM BEING MY FATHER SO NOW I WILL HAVE TO BE HORRID TO EVERYONE ELSE WHILE EXCUSING MYSELF ALL ALONG is not my cup of tea.

ten: OMG SHE’S A WONDERFUL MOTHER!!!! yeah a wonderful mother who sends tommen to whip someone when he’s not tough enough, totally great. and fandom even buys that. blergh.

eleven: I can’t stand her treatment of jaime and tyrion but jaime especially and I find it absolutely revolting and excuse me but I might find it such especially since if you look at it she basically dragged him into doing sexual stuff when they were younger than eight and from then on she did everything to make sure he wouldn’t have a life apart from her when she was ready to drop him if rhaegar accepted to marry her? like, why the fuck am I obliged to like this kind of person if it’s not my kind of character? ah, and it’s not about the incest because if that was the problem I wouldn’t be here shipping thor and loki and the other three sibling incests I occasionally shipped throughout my life, I just hated it since book one. am I allowed?

twelve: I’m gonna tell you a secret now (not so much but whatever). I read books 1-5 in a month marathoning and I didn’t exactly have time to form opinions until after I was done, and I started shipping jb during asos but I mean it sailed at the end and I was mild shipping, not hardcore. you know when was the moment where I thought, re cersei, omg fuck you I hope you die in a fire we’re Done I’m never giving you second chances I don’t care you can choke didn’t even have anything to do with jaime, it was when they were discussing the red wedding post-thing and someone said that catelyn went insane when she watched robb die in front of him and she started laughing about it. and excuse me anyone who finds the red wedding funny ESPECIALLY someone who professes that they’re a wonderful mother who loves her children is completely banned from my list of people who deserve me giving them a second chance to get back in my ‘I like you’ list. okay? my favorite character is robb, cat is in my top ten and I actually love cat to bits even if I don’t agree with her on half of what she says/we are fundamentally different in a lot of fundamental aspects, except that cat’s not an asshole and I can like her because she has things I like about her other than being very well-written, cersei’s just well-written but for the rest she’s the sum of everything I hate in a) fictional villains, b) people irl.

thirteen: also, the fandom tends to justify basically everything this asshole does with the excuse that she’s a woman so SHE’S AN EMPOWERED PROTO-FEMINIST when no she’s fucking not and cersei stans regularly show up bashing on my jb shipping that I try to keep actively away from them for example not tagging anything I say about cersei because I know they don’t wanna read it, while the brienne tag is riddled with crap like OMG YOU SAY SHE HAS TO BE CISHET JUST BECAUSE YOU SHIP HER WITH JAIME BOOO, or gems like ‘omg jb fans are all ugly women who want to bang jaime and project on brienne how pathetic muahahaha cersei had it so much worse’ plus coming on anon at regular intervals to send shit to people in the jb tag (I even have a tagged/jb-wank tag for it, TRY IT), so her fans definitely made sure that I went to general dislike to full-on hatred and that’s not even counting d&d trying to make cersei more sympathetic. blergh. as if there’s the need.

fourteen: I also don’t need to like someone who has no problem condemning people to death, ordering TWENTY children dead without losing a moment of sleep on it (I mean theon did the same with two and has nightmares about it, jon swapped two didn’t even kill them and he has nightmares about it, this asshole hasn’t even thought about it once), ordering people tortured or unethically experimented on and ordering rape on other women (in the show at least) all along while thinking she’s the best thing that ever happened to this planet. I have a few limits and people who only think about themselves and see other people in terms of HOW USEFUL THEY ARE TO ME are one of them, thanks.

fifteen: and for that matter, my favorite fictional villain ever is randall flagg ie a dude who killed an entire planet once or almost and who’s an unrepentant asshole and unapologetically evil, except that he actually doesn’t think he’s this great person because of it. he’s just evil incarnated, but what the hell. I like competent villains who don’t try to tell themselves they aren’t villains and who don’t frame their actions as anything but horrid shit. I’m fine if they enjoy it and I’m fine if they have a skewed set of morals according to which they see it as perfectly acceptable, but cersei doesn’t have a skewed set of morals, cersei’s just fucking out of it and has the worst narcissistic disorder in recent literary history. and she’s an incompetent fuck who thinks she’s better than everyone else who abuses everyfuckingone she runs into, and I just said jaime and tyrion but if I got into sansa, lancel, tommen, myrcella and just about everyone she interacts with I’d end up the day after tomorrow.

sixteen: my dislike was thoroughly cemented by how much I didn’t enjoy her pov chapters in affc/adwd but that was way before I hardcore shipped jb because at that point the only things I HARDCORE shipped were jon/sam and sandor/sansa, I wasn’t even shipping t/rhobb at that point. and my hardcore j/b shipping happened by the end of affc/by the time I was finished, and even then it took me one year to actually get into that side of fandom for real. so, no, actually the fact that I ship j/b has absolutely nothing to do with my dislike of cersei ie a character I disliked in got, hated in acok, was disgusted by all of the damned time in asos and throroughly detested in affc for reasons that guess what had everything to do with her and nothing to do with me shipping jaime with someone else.

because really, as long as he got away from that abusive fuck that’s his sister, he could have done it with arthur dayne, catelyn, the blackfish, fucking jon connington, oberyn or tv!bronn for what I care. I absolutely hate her also because I want jaime far away from her, but as long as he is, the fact that brienne is there and she’s his canon love interest (deal - with - it) is just a good convenient thing. otherwise I still would want him a planet away from that asshole that’s his sister. clear? shipping jb has nothing to do with that. fuck’s sake, the two most popular jon ships are jon/sansa and jon/dany and I ship him with EVERYONE BUT THOSE TWO and robb, and guess what I don’t hate sansa or robb (they’re both in my top ten/fifteen) and I don’t care about dany either way. I’m not so fucking not objective that I loathe a character so much just because they’re canonically in the middle of my ship, I’d be an immature or it’d be an immature reason and I’m enough of an adult to actually admit it. she happens to be in the middle of my ship more or less, but believe me I don’t hate elia or lyanna for being in the middle of r/jonc, sure as fuck I don’t hate cersei because she’s in the middle of jb.

I hate cersei because all of us has limits when it comes to irl and fictional characters and she’s wildly beyond all of mine and guess what, that was clear since the moment I read book one, after which jaime was my second-fave overall and she was at the damned bottom of the list. ah, except that if you dare liking jaime but not her you’re suddenly a Bad Feminist because liking the man out of the two of them but not her means you’re somehow having internalized misogyny. when instead it could be that jaime’s actually not an asshole and she is, but since, oh, wait, this fandom villanizes jaime a lot because in order to justify the crap cersei does they have to go along with that fucking THEY’RE THE SAME PERSON spiel which the narrative had denied from page five of the first tyrion pov chapter or so, I also have to get told that if I like the lannister guys (who are grey and fucked up but not inherently bad people and ah wait, both abuse victims since the damned cradle while she’s not) but not her I’m a Bad Feminist TM and excuse me but that attitude should have died years ago and it also helped making sure I would never budge when it came to c.

seventeen: the fact that the more time passes the less I can’t stand her means I can’t stand her in the show either. wow, too bad. I also couldn’t stand the th/ramsay scenes and watched them muted. but did I go ask t/hramsay ppl how they found them watchable? no. because I mind my own fucking business. and I wasn’t gonna even say it until people basically had to tear it out of me keeping on telling me I should like cersei/lena’s portrayal better than kit/jon because she’s a better actress than he is. most likely, but I don’t wanna punch jon in the face. and I wanna punch cersei in the face. for all the above reasons.

that have nothing to do with jb and all to do with the fact that cersei is an abusive/manipulative/incompetent fuck. okay?

there. that’s why I hate cersei. satisfied?

ps: and that’s why I don’t talk about cersei outside of jb meta, because I know that 50% of this is most probably my flawed subjective opinion and that she irks me also because of personal reasons that don’t have to be rational (there’s a reason why I hate incompetent idiots irl and why I hate people who think your life revolves around theirs irl btw) and that people will like her for a lot of the reasons why I dislike her. it’s fair. and that’s why I usually don’t share.

but if you really had to ask, that’s your damned answer.

classic, my ass. 80% of jb fans around actually don’t agree with me on 80% of what I wrote. some of us just don’t fucking like cersei. deal. with. it.

thanks for coming to my fucking ted talk.

#1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #anti-cersei lannister #anti-cersei #swearing cw #i guess i cussed a lot in this one #va bene va bene va bene in verità #abuse cw #rape cw #torture cw #child murder cw #WOW WHAT AN UPSTANDING CITIZEN #Anonymous #ask post #long post for ts

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beneaththeweirwoodtree-blog · 6 years

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They were children, now they’re not: or Why the Stark sisters’ season seven arc makes no sense

Below are spoilers for season seven of Game of Thrones. I also quote the books because they reveal some of the characters’ inner thoughts that occur during the same time frame covered in the show. This is a Game of Thrones critical, book-to-show comparison post. You’ve been warned.

During season seven of Game of Thrones, I was really looking forward to the promised Stark sibling reunions. The reunion between Sansa and Jon brought me to tears and I had high hopes for the others. Sadly, I was left wanting, particularly the reunion and subsequent tension between Sansa and Arya. I think that season seven served neither character well (nor Bran, either, for that matter), and the tension between the Stark sisters--created by an ever-scheming Littlefinger--makes very little sense.

Point 1: They were children

When Arya and Sansa were younger, they didn’t get along. Typically this is when people bring up the fact that Sansa called Arya “Horseface” or that Arya thinks that Sansa is stupid. I’m not disagreeing with either of these facts. However, when these disagreements occurred, Sansa was 13 (11 in the books) and Arya was 11 (9 in the books). Arya shows some jealousy towards her sister because Sansa is praised for doing all the things that Arya is not good at. Sansa is annoyed with her sister for doing all the things that they’ve been taught girls are not supposed to do. Furthermore, Sansa doesn’t understand why her parents indulge Arya’s behavior when she’s been taught that those sorts of things (getting dirty, sword fighting, etc) are not appropriate for a lady. They may be living in medieval Westeros, but the Stark sisters are having a moment that most people with siblings are familiar with. They each believe that they’re being treated unfairly. Arya believes that she’s forced to do things she doesn’t like and then is compared to her sister, who is much better at those things; Sansa believes it’s unfair that Arya doesn’t follows the rules and gets away with it.

To a child, both of these complaints feel legitimate. However, these are clearly the thoughts of children and when the sister reunite in Winterfell, they’ve got years of growth behind them. They aren’t the same people they were when they left, so why would they have the same grievances? Their time apart and their experiences (as evidenced in the books) gives us reason to believe that both sisters think fondly on each other when they’re apart.

Just a few quotes from Arya’s chapters:

“She wished the Rush would rise and wash the whole city away...everything, and everyone too, espeically Prince Joffrey and his mother. But she knew it wouldn’t, and anyhow Sansa was still in the city and would wash away too.” A Clase of Kings, Arya I

“When she thought of seeing Robb’s face again Arya had to bite her lip. And I want to see Jon too, and Bran and Rickon, and Mother. Even Sansa...I’ll kiss her and beg her pardons like a proper lady, she’ll like that.” A Clash of Kings, Arya VII

“Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa.” A Feast for Crows, Arya II

And now from Sansa’s:

“Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rikcon, even riding through the winter town if she liked.” A Clash of Kings, Sansa II

“She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow...” A Clash of Kings, Sansa V

“In Sansa’s dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was a girl who looked just like Arya,” A Storm of Swoards, Sansa II

“ Sansa had chased Arya through the stables and around the kitchen until both of them were breathless. She might even have caught her, but she’d slipped on some ice. Her sister came back to see if she was hurt. When she said she wasn’t, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair when Jory came along and pulled them apart, laughing,” A Storm of Swords, Sansa VII

In the books, we are given textual evidence that once separated and exposed to the trauma of the world, each sister begins to reflect on the other. Yes, they’re still noted towards the end of each list of people they would like to see, but it is obvious that there is affection in their thoughts of one another. Now that they have matured (through horrific circumstances), they appreciate one another more. They recognize a fondness for one another that they couldn’t see as children. Given this, it doesn’t make sense that they would be reunited at home in Winterfell and immediately begin to dislike one another and hold petty grudges a la “You always liked pretty things because it made you feel better than everyone else.” They’re not gonna braid each other’s hair and exchange trauma stories, but they’re not going to cling to old grudges, either.

On a side note: I know that these quotes are from the book and not directly referenced in the show. However, they are pulled from moments/situations that are very similar between book and show, so it makes sense that the show versions of the characters would still think them.

Point 2: Previously, on Game of Thrones

Just a little recap on Arya: Before she comes back to Westeros, she was in Braavos at the House of Black and White, where she trained as a faceless man. She was trained in multiple ways to kill people and to be pretty sneaky about it. She was also trained to essentially be a human lie detector. Having decided that she is not willing to give up her identity, she declares that she’s Arya Stark of Winterfell and she’s going home. At home, she runs into some Lannister soldiers, chills with them, actually seems happy for the first time in a few seasons, and then heads to Winterfell after hearing from Hot Pie that the Starks have reclaimed it.

Recap on Sansa: She has helped her brother Jon Snow reclaim the North and was present when he was declared King in the North. She also expressed to him that “only a fool would trust Littlefinger,” the very same Littlefinger that she looks concerned about when her brother is declared King in the North.

So, why is the reunion between the sisters so frosty? Arya manages to be kind to strangers who fight for the opposing side in a war, but is less than enthused about seeing the sister that she was violently separated from? Sansa is the first family that Arya has seen in literally years and her reaction is flat as hell.

Sansa seems a little more enthused until she notices how odd Arya’s acting. Of course, then we fall into the mess of finding a letter that Sansa wrote (under duress!) when she was a child trying to save her father’s life. Now, if Arya were still a child, it would make sense that she was skeptical about the letter and confronts her sister. However, she is no longer a child and she’s been trained to spot a lie by a professional assassin death cult. It makes no sense that she would fall for Littlefinger’s tricks. Also, Sansa has been on the most horrific downside of one of Littlefinger’s plots gone wrong (see marriage to Ramsay Bolton, show only); she has confronted him about it; she doesn’t trust him.

So how does it make sense that two women who should be able to see through Littlefinger’s scheming get caught up in it again?

It doesn’t. the writers planned to kill Littlefinger at the end of the season and needed plot filler until then so we got stuck with a ridiculous sister-vs-sister plot that largely ignores Bran and only uses him as a plot device (which, if employed sooner, could have also avoided the entire fiasco). Arya’s faceless man training is available for use to threaten her sister but not to see through Littlefinger. Sansa’s political skills are available for use when she’s trying to appease the Northern lords, but she somehow conveniently trusts the man who confessed to killing the king and selling her to a brutal husband? Makes. No. Sense.

I’m not saying that the sisters would get along swimmingly from the get-go. The one moment of tension that didn’t feel completely manufactured was their difference of opinion in how to handle the Northern lords getting restless about Jon. It makes sense that Arya would want to chop heads because violence has been her story arc. It makes sense that Sansa would want to use a diplomatic solution because her arc has been more court-centered. However, the moment the argument tips into childhood bickering and not actually being about the issue at hand, it feels manufactured and ridiculous.

Conclusion: The writers giveth, the writers taketh away

If Sansa and Arya were still the exact same girls from season one, this tension would make sense. But they aren’t. The writers have spent the five seasons since their separation trying to convince us that they have grown into strong, capable young women with differing areas of expertise. But with the plot of season seven, they manage to undo all of that character development and fall right into the trap of pitting the sisters against one another because the writers can’t think of anything else better to do while they waste time until Littlefinger can be killed.

#game of thrones critical #sansa stark #arya stark #sansa stark meta #arya stark meta #game of thrones meta #asoiaf #Anti-D&D #the sisters stark #arya and sansa deserved better #sansa meta #arya meta #bran deserved better too #asoiaf meta

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the-jade-cross · 3 years

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The Lannister Wolf - Part 3 Chapter 7

‘Be calm. Determined. Emotional’. The dragon patiently told Evelyn.

The girl sat cross-legged at the entrance of the Temple of Fire. Lady and Zinzi sound asleep behind her while Calum taught himself to crawl with Ace watching him like a hawk behind them.

“I’m trying,” Evelyn replied, groaning when no fire came from the empty bowl that sat before her on the floor. “But nothing is coming out.”

Brisingr sighed. ‘You do not want it to come out because it is a part of you. You cannot let it out… btu rather let it show… speak… feel. The elements are built upon something vital in our being. Water is controlled by our souls… our good and our bad. Our natural common sense that comes on its own without trying. Earth is controlled by our physical bodies… our motions, actions, caresses or punches. The pain of a wound or the joy of a comforting hug. The wind comes from our minds… our thoughts and the things thought shape the strength. Like a memory of a little bird brings forth a gentle breeze while a painful memory brings a gale. For fire, it is your heart. When you feel pain, the fire rages and when you are happy, it is soothing.’

Evelyn frowned, “But I am not angry or happy right now. I’m bored if anything.”

Brisingr shrugged his wings. ‘I doubt you would be if I caught something on fire. You know, wolf hair is very good at burning… like kindling.’

Evelyn’s eyes widened and Brisingr could hear her heart beat increase.

‘And you know.’ The dragon said. ‘Because of the heat, your clothes have gotten so dry that they could catch fire from just a spark…. Like the child’s shirt.’

“No!” velyn yelled, throwing her hands down and flame erupted from the ground all around her like an explosion. Both girl and dragon stood in awe as the flame slowly lessened till only a small lick of flame glowed in the bowl on the floor.

Evelyn’s eyes were glued on the remaining flame and like a person in a trance, she slowly extended one hand to the flame. When the fire made contact with her bare skin, she felt nothing but peace wash over her. Brisingr watched the girl until he became aware of the tattoo upon the girl’s wrist and he smiled.

‘You bare the mark of the Royal Dragons’. He cooed.

Evelyn looked at the mark, then at him confused, “What do you mean?”

The dragon sat back on his haunches. ‘The mark upon your arm. Only a member of the royal Dragon family bears that mark. There is one person… a certain Daenerys Targaryen who believes herself to be the Mother of Dragons. But that is not so. Dragons do not kill and destroy but protect those they love and that is not what Daenerys is doing. She may be impervious to the flame of man and was present when the Royal Dragons hatched but only a dragon can withstand the flame of a dragon and actually give life to a dragon. You, Lady Evelyn, daughter of Stark and wife of Lannister, are the true mother. The Mother of Dragons and Queen of the Royals.’

“But,” Evelyn retorted. “I didn’t birth any dragon… only Calum…”

Brisingr nodded. ‘The night you gave birth to Lord Calum Lannister was the day the Royal Dragons: Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion hatched from their eggs. The day your body recognized the fire within you and gave flame to the dragons. Evelyn, you are a dragon and the true mother.’

“But what does that have to do with the mark Drogon gave me?” the girl inquired.

‘That is the sigil of the house of Dragons. It allows you to connect with your children, feel what they feel, sense what they sense. Royals can sense tragedy and joys all over the world.’

Evelyn looked down at her wrist in thought, “How do I connect with them?”

‘Give fire to the sigil.’ Was the simple answer.

Evelyn did as he instructed and hovered her marked arm over the flame. Instantly she saw what looked like a great hall, men of the North seated together… but blood trickled down the hands of those present, pooling on the clean floor. Evelyn could see three bodies lying upon the floor, wounds in their abdomens, blood over their clothes… faces void of life. Evelyn felt her heart freeze when she recognized the three faces… her mother…. Talisa….and Robb!

The girl let out a scream and she was ripped from the vision and found herself lying on the cold cave floor, the wolves and Brisingr looking down at her worried.

“I saw them… my mother, brother and his wife… they were dead!” She cried, tears trickling down her face. “I need to go to them!”

‘Where did you see them?’ Brisingr asked. ‘I can take you there.’

“Frey House,” Evelyn panted, fury raging in her heart. “They were at the House of Walder Frey.”

********

Walder Frey observed the scene before him in satisfaction. Robb and Catelyn Stark lay dead upon the floor at the hands of his family as well as the boy’s pregnant wife. They had never seen it coming when they came to visit. The night just couldn’t be better until the two double doors that had been barred closed just a moment ago were thrown open and there stood a giant, majestic black horse, full of power and rippling sinewy muscles as the horse puffed a cloud of air with his nose, pawing the ground angrily and Walder got the strange feeling that the horse was angry at him.

Atop the beast sat a cloaked figure, garbed all in black and a mask concealing their face. Walder was about to wonder who the person was when he spied the two huge dire wolves beside the horse, one a pale grey, almost white but more of a misty color and the other, as black as the horse it stood beside but slightly larger than the other wolf, legs spread apart in defense and a growl ripping through its powerful lungs. The first thing that came to Walder’s mind was that the person atop the horse was either a Stark, or a friend of the Starks.

The wolves charged forward and the Freys quickly made their departure but not before Zinzi and Lady snapped at their heels before guarding the doors to see that they did not return. Evelyn leapt off Chance’s back and rushed to the nearest body which was her mother. Her throat was slip and the blood had long dried… she had no heartbeat… not a breath of life in her. Choking back tears, Evelyn hurried to the next body… Robb. Fury coursing through her, she dropped to her knees next to her twin and dragged his head into her lap, stroking his still young face and saw that his big blue eyes were still wide open… but dead… obsidian like the eyes of a bird after it dies. Evelyn remembered Talisa and the baby and scurried over to the girl and almost cried for joy when she saw the girl’s chest rising and falling with breaths. However, she was bleeding badly from a wound in her stomach.

“I cannot control your blood for it has no fire,” Evelyn choked, trying to put pressure on the seeping wound when a thought came to her.

Grabbing her knife, she slit her palm and let the fire red blood drip onto Talisa’s open wound before her palm healed in a minute. When she was done, she focused on the fire blood she had dropped on Talisa and moved it to block the wound, stopping the flow. With the blood stopped, Evelyn pulled out needle and thread and hastily stitched the wound shut before turning her head to the door where Brisingr had arrived, watching silently.

“Take my mother and brother’s bodies. They will be properly buried.” The girl hissed.

The dragon complied, scooping up the two dead bodies into his claws before departing silently with Zinzi and Lady close behind. Evelyn helped the unconscious Talisa onto Chance before riding out. As she passed the double doors Chance had kicked down, she grabbed a nearby torch and looked back upon the place where her mother and brother were murdered in cold blood. Throwing the torch onto the floor, she let out a scream of pure anger and the fire exploded, swallowing the hall in flames. The Freys would have a hard time putting that out.

********

Evelyn looked up from where she had just completed carving her mother and brother’s names into two separate posts that would have to suffice as tombstones. Not more than ten meters away stood Brisingr, the two wolves, Chance, Ace and Calum. Brisingr was gently pressing his large foot down on the loose dirt that covered the now buried mother and son while Calum felt that he was being incredibly helpful by throwing handfuls of dirt at Lady who, as patient as an angel, allowed him.

Picking up her creations, Evelyn strode over to the others before carefully placing each post into their respective grave site. With a little help from Brisingr, she drove them deep into the earth till only the tops of the posts where the names were carved were visible. When she finished, she placed the crown of flowers she had woven together upon a nail she had pounded into the post of Robb’s grave, right above the S of the name Stark. The crown was woven out of wildflowers, vines of a tree and lastly tied off with a golden and blue ribbon.

“Do you intend to return to Frey House my lady?” Brisingr asked, his vibrating voice sending warm breath against Evelyn’s cold body.

The girl breathed in shakily, shoulders limp and face pale as she fought the tears. “No. I have to take care of Talisa. There may yet be hope for her recovery.”

The dragon bowed his head before turning to the woman, “Then I must depart from your noble and good company my lady. I must return to the Temple of Fire. Too much longer standing unguarded and it will send out a signal to all dragons of the world to request a new protector and Daenerys Targaryen will be informed that the three dragons she keeps chained to her hip are not the only ones… and in fact, no dragon has ever belonged to a human… but to a dragon.”

Evelyn smiled sadly at the beast before reaching up to stroke his scaly nose. “Thank you for all you have done and taught me. I will never forget you.”

The dragon cooed at her before nudging her upper arm where the dragon tattoo was now prominent and apparently permanent since it had not faded once in the past few days.

“You are one step closer my lady. You have completed your knowledge of the flame but if you truly wish to tap into golden fire within your heart, you must understand each of the four elements. You understand basic fire… next you must under the element of air… wind… breath. Travel west from here. You will find yourself in a perfectly flat land. There you will find the master of air.”

Evelyn nodded, “I will. Thank you Brisingr.”

The dragon smiled and nudged her head, “Thank you…. Mother Dragon.”

As the dragon rose into the air upon silent wings, Evelyn turned to Zinzi who was nuzzling the drowsy Calum with her muzzle. Bending down, Evelyn scooped her son into her arms and Calum snuggled against her chest, wrapping his little arms around his mother’s neck as she carried him back to the small camp they had made, the horse, owl and wolves close behind. There, in the small tent that Evelyn had built out of an old tarp swung over a rope tied tight between two trees lay Talisa. She was as sheet white as she was when Evelyn carried her into the tent with Zinzi’s help. She had managed to brush her brown hair out of her face and wrap her in Evelyn’s cloak to keep her warm, but she had still not woken.

Evelyn sat down beside Talisa, keeping the now sleeping Calum still in her arms as she checked Talisa’s pulse. She still breathed and her heart still pounded, and her wound was no longer bleeding and showed no sign of infection but there had been not a movement from the girl and Evelyn feared the worst. She wished that the girl was awake so she could ask her if she felt the child, giving them some sort of consolation that the babe survived.

Evelyn turned, about ready to place Calum down to rest when she heard a noise next to her and quickly spun around to see Talisa’s deep brown eyes cracking open. Trying desperately to not move too quickly so as to not wake Calum, Evelyn hastily leant over and touched the woman’s cheeks, still pale but the color slowly returning.

“Talisa!” the girl whisper yelled. “You’re awake!”

The girl slowly looked around and made to move but when she felt the pain in her side she froze, “Evelyn… how… how are you here?”

Evelyn smiled, “It is a long story. I was so worried you wouldn’t wake.”

Talisa looked around, worry working its way onto her face, “Robb…. Your mother…. Where….”

When the girl turned her eyes back upon Evelyn, the mere sight of the glassy look in Evelyn’s golden orbs, the puffy red of her tear-stained face and cheeks, her quivering lip… answered it all. Talisa’s face twisted into one of misery and pain before she buried her face in her hands, shoulders shaking with sobs.

“no…. no…”

Evelyn hastily went to lay Calum down before returning to Talisa’s side and taking her hand in hers, “Sh,” she cooed. “It’s alright. Everything will be alright. You must relax Talisa, or you will get worse again.”

The girl began to take deep breaths to calm her racing heart before a thought dawned on her and she touched her abdomen before her shoulders slumped in relief. “The babe is alright.”

Evelyn perked up at that, “You can feel him… or her?”

Talisa smiled and nodded, “Aye. Robb’s child still lives.”

Evelyn beamed, finding herself happier than she had been since she left Harrenhal. “I was amazed that you were still alive when I found you. Your wounds were not any less than Robb’s or my mothers.”

“I remember Robb,” Talisa told her sleepily. “Right before everything went black… he was crawling over to me and then he shoved something into my mouth… told me to swallow it…”

Immediately, everything made sense and Evelyn was taken back to the day she left Winterfell and placed a small leaf of the Healing Herb in her twin’s hand. “He saved you.” She whispered.

Talisa turned her dark eyes to Evelyn’s tears trickling down the side of her face. “What now Evelyn?”

The dark-haired girl sighed before shaking her head, “Wait and hope things turn out alright for you and the child. You are only three months along so there is some time yet. We need to keep your wound clean… perhaps we should find somewhere more secluded to stay for the meantime. Perhaps a cave or old abandoned hut.”

“Why do I feel like there is something else?” Talisa whispered.

Evelyn turned her golden eyes on her sister-in-law and Talisa saw pure fire in those orbs. “And then I am going to pay some visits.”

#got #game of thrones #jaime lannister #jaime lannister x oc

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