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hollowed-theory-hall · 5 days

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How does the protection magic that Lily's sacrifice placed on Harry work? On that note- how do the blood wards placed on the Dursley household operate?

Like- does the latter act as a notice me not/ fidelius of its own? Protecting Harry's location from other magicals? (It would have been easy for another Longbottom tragedy to occur after all) from what I remember the blood wards have no affect on the protection cast by Lily's sacrifice, and instead sort of extend the effect to the household???

Also on the topic of the protection- we saw the end Quirrel met. And... I just wondered- why didn't this sort of reaction extend to all the people - the Dursleys included- who laid their hands + spells on Harry with the intent to harm? By all means the blood wards should have fallen the moment The Dursleys tried to physically harm Harry. Can't see a protection powered by Lily's intent, extending to people who mean her son harm.

Unless of course the magic and the wards are targetted at Riddle specifically. Which brings the question- why didn't it set on fire/ harm anything considering even the traces of Riddle's presence/ influence. Eg. The people with the death Eater brands, the horcruxes, the soul shard inside Harry himself??

Ugh. Just so many questions.

Ps. Could the blood wards have been transferred/ worked in a residence comprising of the people Harry considered as his family and who reciprocated this sentiment? (based on the importance of intent to keep the spell going)

Wow, @ana-lyz, just like with the veil and death asks, I just started drafting a post about Lily's blood protections and what Dumbledore says about them. So...

Lily's Love Protection and Dumbledore's Blood Wards

Alright, strap in...

Okay, so let's start by seeing what we're told about the blood protections and whether we can gather something cohesive that makes magical sense out of it.

We have Voldemort's statement on this piece of magic:

“...I wanted Harry Potter’s blood. I wanted the blood of the one who had stripped me of power thirteen years ago . . . for the lingering protection his mother once gave him would then reside in my veins too. . . . “But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy’s future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy’s protection as long as he is in his relations’ care. Not even I can touch him there. . . .

(GoF, 657)

Notice there is the lingering protection from Lily's magic and the ancient magic Dumbledore invoked. These are, I believe separate spells.

Dumbledore's statements:

“But why couldn’t Quirrell touch me?” “Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn’t realize that love as powerful as your mother’s for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign…to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever. It is in your very skin. Quirrell, full of hatred, greed, and ambition, sharing his soul with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason. It was agony to touch a person marked by something so good.”

(PS, 215)

“But I knew too where Voldemort was weak. And so I made my decision. You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated — to his cost. I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day. I put my trust, therefore, in your mother’s blood. I delivered you to her sister, her only remaining relative.” “She doesn’t love me,” said Harry at once. “She doesn’t give a damn —” “But she took you,” Dumbledore cut across him. “She may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you, and in doing so, she sealed the charm I placed upon you. Your mother’s sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you.” “I still don’t —” “While you can still call home the place where your mother’s blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort. He shed her blood, but it lives on in you and her sister. Her blood became your refuge. You need return there only once a year, but as long as you can still call it home, there he cannot hurt you. Your aunt knows this. I explained what I had done in the letter I left, with you, on her doorstep. She knows that allowing you houseroom may well have kept you alive for the past fifteen years.”

(OotP, 835-836)

Here again, Dumbledore mentions the ancient magic he made the decision to protect Harry with as a separate thing from the lingering protection from Lily.

And (as per this post) the Dumbledore Harry hallucinates statement:

“He took my blood.” said Harry. “Precisely!” said Dumbledore. “He took your blood and rebuilt his living body with it! Your blood in his veins, Harry, Lily’s protection inside both of you! He tethered you to life while he lives!”

(DH, 598)

And then we have what happened to Quirrell:

Quirrell raised his hand to perform a deadly curse, but Harry, by instinct, reached up and grabbed Quirrell’s face — “AAAARGH!” Quirrell rolled off him, his face blistering, too, and then Harry knew: Quirrell couldn’t touch his bare skin, not without suffering terrible pain — his only chance was to keep hold of Quirrell, keep him in enough pain to stop him from doing a curse. Harry jumped to his feet, caught Quirrell by the arm, and hung on as tight as he could. Quirrell screamed and tried to throw Harry off — the pain in Harry’s head was building — he couldn’t see — he could only hear Quirrell’s terrible shrieks and Voldemort’s yells of, “KILL HIM! KILL HIM!”

(PS, 212)

What we know from this

Well, from the above quotes we can divide the magical protections on Harry into 2 different spells as I mentioned above:

Lily's sacrificial love protection - the intention magic Lily cast by protecting her son. This is the magic that blocked the Killing Curse and killed Quirrell.

Dumbledore's blood ward - this is the spell Dumbledore cast that (supposedly) protects Harry in his relatives' home. Voldemort says Dumbledore invoked this magic, and Dumbledore also mentions it's a ward he left that built upon Lily's protection, but it's not a spell Lily left.

So, what can Lil'y Sacrificial Love Protection do:

Makes the Killing Curse not kill Harry.

Returns the Killing Curse back to the sender.

Continues to hurt that initial "sender" whenever he tries to kill Harry.

What about Dumbledore's Blood Wards what do they do:

Nothing.

Dumbledore and Voldemort say this magic exists but it never does anything. We never see it active, it never protects Harry from anyone, neither his relatives nor Death Eaters. So, we don't know what it's supposed to be doing since it doesn't do anything in the books.

Voldemort says it won't allow him to touch Harry in his relatives' house.

How I think these spells actually work

I'll start with Dumbledore's Blood Wards:

I simply don't think this ward actually exists.

Dumbledore isn't very consistent with how this protection works. He says Harry needs to return for a bit to live with Petunia for the magic to work, but if that's all the requirement, why long weeks? Couldn't he return for a shorter time? And each year he spends a different amount of time at Private Drive? Couldn't he always be sent back just for the minimal required time? At first, the ward was about love but then it isn't, he says this: "While you can still call home the place where your mother’s blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort."

Harry didn't think of Private Drive as a home:

Harry could hardly believe it when he realized that he’d already been at Hogwarts two months. The castle felt more like home than Privet Drive ever had.

(PS, 123)

“I believe he had several reasons, though he confided none of them to Professor Dippet,” said Dumbledore. “Firstly, and very importantly, Voldemort was, I believe, more attached to this school than he has ever been to a person. Hogwarts was where he had been happiest; the first and only place he had felt at home.” Harry felt slightly uncomfortable at these words, for this was exactly how he felt about Hogwarts too.

(HBP, 431)

Harry never considered Private Drive and the Dursleys his home. Hogwarts was his first home.

If there is no love and it isn't a home, even if Dumbledore did cast a blood ward based on Petunia and Lily's sacrifice it won't actually be active. But personally, I don't think this ward actually exists.

Dumbledore needs a reason to keep Harry with his relatives.

Dumbledore needs Harry malleable, low on self-esteem, and lacking in a support network. Because he knew since October 1981 (but probably before) that he'd likely need Harry to die. He suspected Harry was a Horcrux from practically day 1:

Under a tuft of jetblack hair over his forehead they could see a curiously shaped cut, like a bolt of lightning. “Is that where —?” whispered Professor McGonagall. “Yes,” said Dumbledore. “He’ll have that scar forever.” “Couldn’t you do something about it, Dumbledore?” “Even if I could, I wouldn’t. Scars can come in handy...

(PS, 13-14)

And being raised by the Dursleys ensured that when the time came, when Dumbledore needed Harry to die to destroy Voldemort, Harry would be willing. Because Harry would not put much worth in his own life. Because of that, I think it's not outside the realm of possibility Dumbledore would lie about this ward to have an excuse to keep sending Harry to the Dursleys.

(Sure, Dumbledore would've preferred not to kill Harry if it could be avoided, but he had been preparing for the situation since October 1981)

It's not like he did anything to better their treatment of Harry until book 6, when he needed Harry to start trusting him more...

And like I mentioned above, even if the ward was there, it would not be active because Private Drive was never a home for Harry. And after year 4, when Voldemort took his blood, any protection from any blood-related magic would be moot. Because Voldemort would not be counted as a threat by the ward.

So Dumbledore sending Harry back to the Dursleys after he knew the wards he left (if they were there at all) were gone, proves to me Harry's placement at the Dursleys was never about the wards to begin with. Because if the blood wards are gone, literally anywhere else around wizards who could protect Harry would be safer than at the Dursleys, even when thinking of Death Eaters and Voldemort as the only threat. If they came to find Harry at Private Drive, nothing would've stopped them (except Harry himself).

I could guess wards like this, if they actually were active, would have been an extension of Lily's protection and stopped Voldemrot from being able to enter the Dursleys' residence. From what's said, it seems this ward seems to target Voldemrot specifically, and no one else. But, as I mentioned, I don't think it's really there.

Lil'y Sacrificial Love Protection:

I mentioned in the past how intention and emotion mean a lot for magic in the HP universe. Lily, a witch who we are told repeatedly was powerful, intelligent, and talented, could very well cast a powerful protection out of her love and intention to protect her son. That is 100% possible with what we see magic is capable of and how magic seems to work.

That being said, the fact this never happened before suggests to me Lily did something different than just having a very strong wish for her son to survive. Dumbledore says it's because she had a choice, and in a way it is, but not because Voldemort gave her the option not to die, but because she chose to die instead of Harry.

I'll try to explain it, bear with me.

“Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!” “Stand aside, you silly girl. . . stand aside now.” “Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead—” “This is my last warning—” “Not Harry! Please . . . have mercy. . . have mercy. . . . Not Harry! Not Harry! Please—I’ll do anything—” “Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!”

(DH, 297)

This is the "spell" Lily casts — the incantation. This is her wish moments before her death: "Not Harry, kill me instead," that's what she says, that's her promise, that's her wish, that's the magic.

Lily's protection only works on Voldemort because her spell essentially made a bargain with Voldemort (that he didn't agree to). that he'd kill her instead of Harry. Once he killed Lily, he couldn't kill Harry because that was the protection she left him, and Voldemort won't be able to kill him because she died in his stead.

That's why we don't see the same thing happen after James dies to buy Lily and Harry time, why when others die to protect someone they aren't protected from the killing curse. What Lily did is a combination of a few extraordinary circumstances coming together:

She's an incredibly powerful witch (shown by her childhood magic that was very controlled and advanced (not unlike Tom Riddle) and Slughorn's boasting)

She loved Harry dearly. Loved him enough to power an accidental spell.

Chose and intended to die instead of her son. She had intent when making her plea, intent required for any spell.

So what essentially happened is that Lily created a situation where Voldemort physically can't kill Harry because Lily died in his stead. If, for example, Quirrell touched Harry without intending to kill him (like he did when they shook hands in Diagon Alley or when he pulled Harry to stand in front of the mirror) the protection won't activate. All it does is stop Voldemort from killing Harry because he already killed Lily in Harry's stead.

So, Voldemort, as I mentioned in the past, wants to kill Harry, this is his only ambition in the 2nd war. So he takes Harry's blood into himself so the protection won't work anymore. And we see it doesn't in the woods when Voldemort casts the killing curse and it doesn't rebound back on him (which would've happened otherwise).

This love protection from Lily doesn't require anything to stay active. It was cast because Voldemort killed her and Harry doesn't need to do anything to keep it active. Staying with the Dursleys wasn't for the sake of Lily's spell but for Dumbledore's ward.

As for Lily's spell not protecting Hary from anything else, like I mentioned, the bargain was that Voldemort would kill her instead of Harry, it would only protect Harry from being killed by Voldemort. If Voldemort just asked a random Death Eater to kill Harry it still wouldn't have worked, but that won't be because of Lily's love magic, but because of Harry pretty much always being the Master of Death.

Basically, Voldemort was doomed because he had no chance of killing Harry. Ever.

But what about when Harry died in book 7 and said he cast the same sacrificial love?

Well, I don't think Harry cast the same sacrificial love. His feelings and intentions were completely different. In his case, I think he just took the mastership of the Elder Wand so it wasn't performing as well for Voldemort afterward.

Conclusions

There are actually two different and distinct spells referred to by the characters when it comes to the protections Lily left for Harry.

The first is Lily's Sacrificial Love Spell which worked like a bargain. She pleaded with Voldemort to kill her instead of Harry and after he killed her, he could no longer kill Harry because he was protected.

Voldemort taking Harry's blood does indeed circumvent this spell and allows him to kill Harry in the woods (if temporarily).

The second is the Blood Ward Dumbledore talks about that is supposedly placed on the Dursleys' home. This spell was invoked by Dumbledore and is not part of Lily's spell.

It's supposed to build on and strengthen Lily's protection from what's implied.

this second spell would've stopped its activity the moment Harry stopped considering number 4, Private Drive his home (which happened quite young, as he doesn't remember ever considering it a home)

Personally, I don't think this blood ward ever existed, but even if it did, it was moot from the get-go and never done anything.

Voldemort taking Harry's blood in year 4, circumvented this ward too.

Basically, Dumbledore kept Harry at the Durselys less because of the wards and more because it suited him to ensure Harry would become the martyr he needed him to be (something I should write a full post about eventually).

#harry potter #hp #asks #ana-lyz #harry james potter #lily potter #harry potter meta #hp meta #hollowedtheory #albus dumbledore #lily evans

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jessicafurseth · 2 months

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Reading List, Anaemia edition.

"I am doing my best to not become a museum of myself. I am doing my best to breathe in and out." - Natalie Diazem

[Image: Washington driftlog by Phillip Lachman, via AnonymousWorksInc]

"The therapist couldn’t help me ask him to do more if I didn’t feel like I deserved it, if I couldn’t bring myself to ask him myself. I had to learn how to ask." The Lure of Divorce [Emily Gould, The Cut]

"I was afraid of rejection, and I was afraid of getting addicted to crumbs of affirmation. I was a sober alcoholic who hadn’t had a drink in a decade, but from the way I chased “likes” on a tweet, it was clear that the old self was still there, thirstier than ever. I was afraid that giving her an app would be like giving her a glass of wine: She’d just want more, and more, and more. The apps felt like an explicit confession of intentionality and desire: I want this, I’m seeking this. And that intentionality made me uncomfortable. I preferred the version of things in which the universe just ambushed me with a meet-cute in a coffee shop and I didn’t have to claim responsibility for all my wanting." On Dating — And Dating Apps — After Divorce [Leslie Jamison, The Cut]

"There’s so much quiet misery, and we’re always looking to each other to say, “When is it bad enough? When do I get to choose myself?” And I think that concept of a woman choosing herself is really destabilizing." Lyz Lenz is possibly the most happily divorced woman in America [Hillary Frey, Slate]

"There are very few stories about how romantic it can be to sink down into the muck of your real life and meet your partner there, in that compromised place where you’re both a little worse for the wear, a little disappointed, a little impatient, wondering if things will ever feel exciting again." [Ask Polly]

In praise of solo holidays for older women [Joanna Moorhead, The Guardian]

In praise of notebooks and journals and all the other blank paper books that writers keep around [Anna Codrea-Rado]

My Autism Assessment, Age 40 [Esme Wang]

His Latex Goddess [Anna Holmes, The New Yorker]

24 hours in Paris with no phone service [Glynnis MacNichol]

Losing San Francisco [Rebecca Solnit, The London Review of Books]

“Look at your country! It’s amazing.” Armistead Maupin on moving to London [David Shariatmadari, The Guardian]

"Just because I don’t care about someone else’s pain, so to speak, doesn’t mean I want to cause more of it. I enjoy living in this society. I understand that there are rules. I choose to follow those rules because I understand the benefits of this world, this house where I get to live, this relationship I get to have. That is different from people who follow the rules because they have to, they should, they want to be a good person. None of those apply to me. I want to live in a world where things function properly. If I create messes, my life will become messy." What It’s Like to Be a Sociopath [David Marchese, The New York Times - free link]

I read this twice - it's a hell of a ride: How I Fell for a Scam Call and Handed Over $50,000 [Charlotte Cowles, The Cut]

#reading list

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ambivalence-and-torpor · 1 year

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//PINCHES LYZ CHEEK AND PULLS LIKE MOCHI...

Kinship? Certainly you're aware that Milo doesn't 'bond' with others for being alike or in some same vein... though you've had your own struggles as Milo has had their own.. But in all honesty, maybe I don't see what's between them as some affections.. Perhaps because I might know more.. but I think that's something to inquire? or are ya scared to confirm something you don't know the true answer to it?

I think maybe you should look to the positives.. don't go trudging in the hurt.. You're gonna not enjoy yourself! But maybe having some time together can shift your opinion?

AA: ♡♡♡ O-Oooowww... please don't do that again... ♡♡♡

They gently smack away your hands.

AA: ♡♡♡ W-Well... if you know them so well, then... why are you talking to me? Why are you asking me about them? ♡♡♡ AA: ♡♡♡ I-I don't... I don't get it... ♡♡♡

AA: ♡♡♡ Are you trying to... to convince me to... do something? ♡♡♡ AA: ♡♡♡ I-I don't... I don't like this... weird... beating around the bush... ♡♡♡

AA: ♡♡♡ Speak plainly to me, please... ♡♡♡

#yaebloom #Elyzia #Fantroll #OC #ask #goldenguillotines

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goldenguillotines · 1 year

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Natani! I heard you're into the lil hoot hoot, Lyz? Is it true?

“Oh come now. So *I* might enjoy that prude. They’re fun to rile up and mess with. Makes *me* glad *I* showed to that little get together at the beach.”

“Why, are they speaking about *me*? Surely if they are.. they’re frustrated or getting all twisted about *me*~”

#Natani #ask #ic #Tender riposte #<3 hehe

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gentlyepigrams · 1 year

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When the scale weighs the mother against her child, the mother always loses. Sometimes she chooses to lose. Or so it seems. When you are faced with the choice between hitting yourself with a rock or throwing that rock at your kid, and you choose yourself, that wasn’t free will. But the culture lauds these maternal sacrifices when they are really tragedies. These choices are a false binary. There is always another way. And often choosing the mother is choosing the child because the two are inextricably linked rather than existing in opposition.

Dividing Women Against Themselves - by lyz - Men Yell at Me

Cisheeteronormative terms here, but this speaks to a lot of the bad things in US culture.

#why we need feminism #i blame the patriarchy #read the whole thing

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brokenmousepad · 2 years

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about me !! [ header and pfp by me ] call me swizzy !! or anything is fine really go wild w names /gen my preferred pronouns are

he / they / it as well as xey / xem / xir / xyrs / xemself , bee / buzz / bugs / boops / bugself , bee / bem / bee / bees / beeself , ar / lyz / ars / lyzs / arlyzself , fizz / fizz / fizzes / fizzes / fizzself , but any neos are fine !! i dont use any emoji pronouns but they are def awesome !! :D please im begging you use any pronouns besides my preferred praying emoji im nd , poc , but i dont want to reveal that specific information as well as my age anon is on if you want to chat but please dont dm me !! my dni but its on another post woah :O fandoms im in but i need a separate post because holy shit /lh more about me under the cut !!

i love : - reading / books / romance / angst / horror / slice of life - writing [ the above !! ] - the fandoms im in - listening to music - space / astronomy / aliens / stars - science / biology / physics / psuedoscience / math - dogs / cats / pandas / ducks / dolphins / and more !! - the ocean / marine biology / koi !! / fish - nature / bugs / earth / rare sights / trees / plants - food - learning new things - the little things in life [ ex : a weed growing on the side of the road , a cloud that looks painted in the sky , etc ] - creepy things / spooky ones / the abnormal - and more !!

typing !! : - i mostly use more than end punctuation like !! or ?? - i dont use periods because it makes lh stuff seem too neg or srs :[ - i only use periods when it IS something neg or srs or putting dot dot dot - i put spaces between punctuation ex : hi hey hello !! , what is cheese ?? - i dont use emojis only emoticons unless its something that cant be put in emoticons - i type in all lowercase - i use tone indicators !! please use them w me as well !! - i swear and use caps a lot :O

tagging system !! : #block this tag im talking /j - swizzy speaks : talking tag #literally no clue what im doin - the swizzy random posts tag : anything random tag #woah look at this you really wanna look at this /ref - swizzy big things : anything important #literally in my pinned im just stupid - stuff in my pinned thingy : self explanatory #im an artist ??? what ??? really ??? and a mentally ill one at that ??? - swizzy can draw : art tag #just sys things amiright - swizzy thinks systems are cool : sys tag but whether im a singlet or not is none of your business #just nonhuman / kin things amiright - swizzy thinks nonhumans / kinners are cool : nonhuman / kin tag #woah oh my god so /pos this is cool wow wowie stareyes - swizzy likey : anything i like in general #im mentally ill please excuse my ramblings - swizzy and fandom junk : my nd ass and interests #its a silly goofy moment for me B] - swizzys endorphins are increasing : memes and shits n giggles #i have messages ?? no way ?? - swizzy gets inbox : anons or smth idk #the brain is a strange thing tbh - mentally ill related stuff : im nd soo nd related stuff misc !! : - im an infp , taurus , pst time zone , i have a guilty pleasure for coffee , writing my random thoughts , and funfacts , i have two dogs , i have a fern named Fern , and a cello named Fierre i hope you enjoy your stay here and that your day / night / afternoon is very swaggy !! [ will be updated when needed ]

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snackzimmerman · 3 years

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- tag 9 people you'd like to know better - (thanks @conartisthaiji!)

favorite color: purple or blue or gold!

currently reading: strong female protagonist and the goldfinch (yes both are a reread)

last song: promises by ryn weaver

last movie: some netflix movie that was so terrible i didn't finish it

last series: shockingly, attack on titan - please don't expect me to talk about it, friends of mine are determined to get me through it and i miss them so i'm going along with their facetiming plots

sweet, spicy, or savory: probably sweet? i'm a wimp about spice ha

craving: i've got ice cream in the fridge i'll raid soon

coffee or tea: both!

currently working on: a jujitsu kaisen fic themed after the song home to me by the devil and the deep blue sea, which i love - likely 3k, T

i'll just tag @queen-of-broken-hearts-posts, @cricketnationrise, and anybody who wants to?

#inky speaks #me reading lyz's responses: and that's taste

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conartisthaiji · 4 years

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i had a paper due today so i opened up a new tab to submit it and then went “do i post this to ao3 or tumblr first” so guess who needs a fucking break

#lyz talks #see like u KNOW im tired bc its always ao3 first #then i cross-post to tumblr #so the fact that i both forgot how i upload things #AND that u dont post essays on ao3 #speaks volumes about how my week has been #my friend pointed out that i'd get a plagiarism check if i put it on ao3 #which like. imagine THAT conversation #so u got this off...archive of our own #well u see that's my account so it's still my work...

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runayachi · 10 months

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next gen captain friendship is so goddamn important to me because like. futakuchi yahaba and shirabu are immediately trying to verbally eviscerate each other, kenma's playing video games the whole time, terushima is actively making things worse by cheering for whoever is winning (or losing) the futakuchi-yahaba-shirabu fight, ennoshita has to threaten everyone into behaving, and akaashi wants to go back to tokyo SO BAD but can't because he's too nervous to say that. worst friend group in existence. they're ride or die. they'd sell each other to satan for one corn chip. if one of them needed help hiding a body the others would immediately get a shovel.

#lyz speaks #next gen captains #futakuchi kenji #yahaba shigeru #shirabu kenjirou #kenma kozume #terushima yuuji #ennoshita chikara #akaashi keiji #btw i dont even think ennoshita is being responsible about things...hes like stfu or ill dangle u out the window by ur toenails #he has head bitch in charge energy but its against his will. ya know

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larkandkatydid · 4 years

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“I grew up being taken to rallies protesting Roe v. Wade. I spent twelve years married to a man who believed abortion was murder. I have spent a good portion of my life (let’s hope I live long enough so that it’s not half my life) in churches where abortion was treated as a sin. So, I’ve heard the usual argument, the claim that the most vulnerable person in the room is not the woman, but the baby. The baby is the voiceless one. Who will speak for that baby?

The thing is, the whole premise of that question is bullshit. It creates a divide where none exists. Birth isn’t about saving a baby from the person whose body has been sustaining and nurturing it, even at their own expense. It’s about a person bringing new life into the world. The only relevant voice in that room is the pregnant person’s. They are the one who chooses. They are the only one who can speak on their own behalf and that of their body. Their desires are not in opposition to the baby’s but are part of creating that new life. To ask who speaks for the baby is to force a question where no question exists. It is to privilege the voice of another—a culture that wants the pregnant person to have less sex, be less poor, less black, less queer, less disabled, just less.”

- Lyz Lenz, Belabored: A Vindication of the Rights of Pregnant Women

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hollowed-theory-hall · 14 days

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Any thoughts on the mystery behind the Veil of Death and the three brothers?

ana-lyz: So... What does it mean to be the Master of Death in HP universe? And like what does being MOD mean specifically for Harry?

Okay, funny thing is I got the first of your asks like an hour after I added to my drafts a post titled "Master of Death", so I was just thinking about it. And then I started answering it and you sent the second ask, so, great minds think alike, I guess.

Long post ahead:

The Veil, Death, and its Master

I'm going to cover what we know from the books, my opinions on it, and some of my evidence-based headcanons, since there is a lot of speculation on my part.

The Afterlife and the Veil

So, I wanna talk a bit about death, as it appears in the Harry Potter books. We know an afterlife exists in the HP world both when Harry dies and when he speaks to Nearly Headless Nick after Sirius dies.

I want to start with the scene in Deathly Hallows in the King's Cross limbo. Specifically these few sections:

Barely had the wish formed in his head than robes appeared a short distance away. He took them and put them on. They were soft, clean, and warm. It was extraordinary how they had appeared just like that, the moment he had wanted them. . . . He stood up, looking around. Was he in some great Room of Requirement?

(DH, 596)

“Where are we, exactly?” “Well, I was going to ask you that,” said Dumbledore, looking around. “Where would you say that we are?” Until Dumbledore had asked, Harry had not known. Now, however, he found that he had an answer ready to give. “It looks,” he said slowly, “like King’s Cross station. Except a lot cleaner and empty, and there are no trains as far as I can see.” “King’s Cross station!” Dumbledore was chuckling immoderately. “Good gracious, really?” “Well, where do you think we are?” asked Harry, a little defensively. “My dear boy, I have no idea. This is, as they say, your party.”

(DH, 601)

“Tell me one last thing,” said Harry. “Is this real? Or has this been happening inside my head?” Dumbledore beamed at him, and his voice sounded loud and strong in Harry’s ears even though the bright white mist was descending again, obscuring his figure. “Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?

(DH, 610)

I don't think this place Harry was in is the Afterlife, or even connected to the Afterlife. I think it is in Harry's head. Harry having complete control over it, actually calling it out as behaving like the Room of Requirement, Dumbledore not knowing where they are until Harry knows where they are, etc. All this doesn't fit with it being a limbo on the way to death and the figure there being the real Dumbledore. Dumbledore, throughout this scene, acts kind of strange, way more helpful and finally says all the right things Harry wants to hear.

Not-Dumbledore himself tells Harry he already knows everything he explains to him:

“Explain,” said Harry. “But you already know,” said Dumbledore. He twiddled his thumbs together

(DH, 597)

So, I truly believe it isn't really happening. That this isn't death and it isn't Dumbledore. throughout the scene, Dumbledore doesn't actually give Harry new information Harry couldn't guess on his own. He's just going over things Harry already knew and creating a nice narrative out of them. At some points, he asks Harry what he thinks, and only starts explaining once Harry knows the answer (or what he wants the answer to be). I think this is Harry's subconscious coping and not actual death.

Additionally, there's the disturbing baby Voldemort thing. Now, the real Voldemort is still alive, so contrary to what Not-Dumbledore says, it isn't actually Tom Riddle:

“Oh yes!” said Dumbledore. “Yes, he destroyed it. Your soul is whole, and completely your own, Harry.” “But then . . . ” Harry glanced over his shoulder to where the small, maimed creature trembled under the chair. “What is that, Professor?” “Something that is beyond either of our help,” said Dumbledore

(DH, 598)

What I believe it is, is the soul in the Horcrux in Harry. Separated from Harry's own soul within his mind. That's the only thing it can be, in my opinion. I don't believe the soul shards in the Horcruxes could pass into an afterlife, or even to limbo. They were created to be bound to life and passing away is against their very nature (unless, maybe, if you through them through the veil).

Besides all these oddities in the scene, it just doesn't make sense for Dumbledore to be there. Nearly Headless Nick gives some insight about death and the Afterlife:

“He will not come back,” repeated Nick quietly. “He will have . . . gone on.” “What d’you mean, ‘gone on’?” said Harry quickly. “Gone on where? Listen — what happens when you die, anyway? Where do you go? Why doesn’t everyone come back? Why isn’t this place full of ghosts? Why — ?” “I cannot answer,” said Nick. “You’re dead, aren’t you?” said Harry exasperatedly. “Who can answer better than you?” “I was afraid of death,” said Nick. “I chose to remain behind. I sometimes wonder whether I oughtn’t to have . . . Well, that is neither here nor there. . . . In fact, I am neither here nor there. . . .” He gave a small sad chuckle. “I know nothing of the secrets of death, Harry, for I chose my feeble imitation of life instead. I believe learned wizards study the matter in the Department of Mysteries —”

(OotP, 861)

From the way Nick speaks, ghosts are caught between life and death, part of them remains among the living while the rest moves on. Hhosts live in limbo, unable to be alive or dead. From his words, it also implies the properly dead, those who chose to move on, stay dead. They stay gone.

If that is the case, how could Dumbledore have come to greet Harry in limbo? He's dead, truly gone, and death has no exceptions. There is no reason Dumbledore could speak to Harry in limbo and his parents won't. Once you're dead, you reach the afterlife and there you stay.

So I don't think the white King's Cross in Harry's death vision was connected to the afterlife, nor was it the real Dumbledore there. So, what is the actual afterlife?

Well, we don't really know. But, I can cover what we do know about the nature of death in the HP universe.

From Nick's words, the afterlife is the better option, than becoming a ghost. Nick describes ghosts as imprints left behind, but imprints of what specifically?

I talked about this already when I discussed how to make Horcruxes, but in alchemy, everything is comprised of three things:

Sulfur - soul

Mercury - spirit (that binds the body and the soul)

Salt - body

A ghost doesn't have a body, and we know all that moves on to the afterlife is one's soul. Therefore, it stands to reason ghosts are an imprint of a soul, while the spirit leaves at the moment of death. That's what an Avada Kedavra does, it removes the spirit, the connection between the body and the soul. That's how it kills instantly and without a trace.

So, when someone passes into the afterlife, it's their soul that passes away.

What about the echoes of Harry's parents and Cedric in Voldemort's wand during the duel in the graveyard?

Well, they're dead, they moved on, so it can't be their soul. The figures aren't even described the same way as ghosts or diary Tom, figures we know are made of souls:

and then something much larger began to blossom from Voldemort’s wand tip, a great, grayish something, that looked as though it were made of the solidest, densest smoke. . . . It was a head . . . now a chest and arms . . . the torso of Cedric Diggory. the dense shadow of a second head, If ever Harry might have released his wand from shock, it would have been then, but instinct kept him clutching his wand tightly, so that the thread of golden light remained unbroken, even though the thick gray ghost of Cedric Diggory (was it a ghost? it looked so solid) emerged in its entirety from the end of Voldemort’s wand, as though it were squeezing itself out of a very narrow tunnel . . . and this shade of Cedric stood up, and looked up and down the golden thread of light, and spoke.

(GoF, 665-666)

Their bodies are buried, and Cedric's is just lying there, neither are they physical enough to be bodies. I believe this is their spirit. Remember what I said about the Killing Curse just now, it severs the tie, and as such, it keeps the spirit. So, Harry is speaking to his parents' spirit, the echoes of their lives, not souls.

Now, let's talk about the veil. The veil is one of the most fascinating things introduced in the books, and the way it is introduced is fascinating on its own, but that's for later. The veil is a physical archway into the world of the dead.

The concept of such an entrance exists in multiple mythologies. In Greek mythology, many heroes (Odysseus, Orpheus, Heracles, Theseus, etc.) all travel through the underworld in one way or another, this is why the hero's journey goes through the underworld, it's very common. In Mesopotamian mythology, Gilgamesh and Ishtar both travel to the underworld. The point is, a gateway into the afterlife you can travel through, is a concept humanity has been toying with for millennia.

What's interesting is that, like Thestrals, those who've seen death (Harry, Luna, and Neville) can hear whispers from it. They experience it differently from others who haven't witnessed death (Ron, Hermione, and Ginny) who feel unnerved by it (although, Neville and Luna react differently from Harry, but more on that later). Not much more can be said about it, except that unlike all these gates into the underworld from myths, the veil is meant to be a one-way ticket.

In general, the afterlife in the Wizarding World is a one-way passage. Once you're gone, you're gone. Hence the closest thing to proper necromancy they have is creating inferi, which are soulless since the soul can't be pulled back from the afterlife.

The veil was also there before the Ministry of Magic, which was built around it. My guess is that some ancient wizards made it, and how or why were forgotten over time.

As the Peverell brothers were born around the 1210s and the Ministry of Magic was founded in 1707, it's possible, that the same Peverells from the story have built the veil. I actually think it's quite likely.

Death Himself

The idea of death personified is just as old and prevalent in many myths and cultures as a gateway leading into the afterlife. Whether Death, as a being, exists in the Wizarding World, I'm uncertain, but I don't think it's likely.

God-like spirits like Death feel out of place in the world in a way. Like, having a pantheon of gods feels wrong for the world of Harry Potter. It feels out of place with the established lore and magic. We don't see any evidence of wizarding society having any kind of unique religion in which such beings exist. Death, in the tale, is also described as similar to a dementor, making the idea that the author based Death's appearance on that of a dementor plausible.

That being said, Death's similarity to dementors could be the other way around. As in, the dementors look like death because of their connection to him. And, Death from the Tale doesn't really act like a god. How he behaves and is spoken of in the Tale of the Three Brothers reminds me a lot of a fae-like creature. Like, a powerful being who's a trickster that twists your wishes into something that he can use against you.

However I look at it, I still don't feel a being like this would fit in the world of Harry Potter, it feels wrong to add gods (or fae) in there. We don't see any hint that such beings might exist, which makes me feel they don't. So, I don't really think a personification of Death as appearing in the tale actually exists, but they do have an afterlife, as established above.

The Peverells and the Hallows

So we all know the legend about the three Peverell brothers who cheated death and received his gifts. Dumbledore (the one Harry imagines in his death fever dram) is certain it went down a little differently. That the tale is to explain incredibly powerful magical artifacts made by extraordinary wizards:

“Oh yes, I think so. Whether they met Death on a lonely road . . . I think it more likely that the Peverell brothers were simply gifted, dangerous wizards who succeeded in creating those powerful objects. The story of them being Death’s own Hallows seems to me the sort of legend that might have sprung up around such creations.

(DH, 602)

While it's not really Dumbledore and more Harry's own mind, I agree with him the Peverell brothers were probably no run-of-the-mill wizards, and I agree it's unlikely they've met Death, as I don't believe he exists.

Now, all the Hallows have a sentience to them beyond just any magical artifact. Even the wand is more sentient than any other wand, which are already quite sentient ("the wand chooses the wizard").

The wand of the first brother is a Hallow I already wrote about how it chooses its master. It is a wand intrinsically connected with death, having a core of Thestral hair. (I wonder if a core from a Thestral would agree to work for a wizard who hasn't seen death, but I digress)

This wand is actually the least impressive Hallow, in my opinion. Even though it says to be unbeatable:

Naturally, with the Elder Wand as his weapon, he could not fail to win the duel that followed. Leaving his enemy dead upon the floor

(DH, 352)

Its user is beaten quite often, that's how the wand changes owners, after all. This wand's tendency for even more sentience than other wands is what is particularly unique about it. How it chooses its master repeatedly, and sometimes even decides it prefers another over its current master, something unheard of for any other wand.

The Resurrection Stone has the supposed ability to pull a soul imprint from the afterlife:

“Yet she was sad and cold, separated from him as by a veil. Though she had returned to the mortal world, she did not truly belong there and suffered.

(DH, 352)

Something that I just discussed above should be impossible. Once dead and in the afterlife, nothing comes back out. Harry uses it as well for the same purpose and describes them as being similar to Tom from the diary:

They were neither ghost nor truly flesh, he could see that. They resembled most closely the Riddle that had escaped from the diary so long ago, and he had been memory made nearly solid. less substantial than living bodies, but much more than ghosts, they moved toward him, and on each face, there was the same loving smile.

(DH, 589)

Because that's what the stone brings back, echoes of souls, but they aren't what Tom Riddle was in CoS.

“We are part of you,” said Sirius. “Invisible to anyone else.”

(DH, 590)

This line, made me believe the resurrection stone does something different than its name suggests and more similar to the lie Tom in the diary told Harry. They aren't souls, they're memories, echoes from within Harry himself. "Memory made solid"

Magic, in the world of Harry Potter, can't bring back someone who has moved on to the afterlife. It's a one-way ticket, as I've established before, once your soul moves on, that's it (if you try to resurrect someone immediately after they died and their soul hasn't yet moved on it's a different story). So I think, these shades are based on Harry's memories, and not actual souls brought back. It'll make more sense magically since his thoughts and memories are there, but the souls have gone on.

It also makes the tale of the second brother make more sense. He suffered because it wasn't really his wife that came back, but a shade based on his own memory. The tale said that she suffered, but I think it was Cadmus who suffered, not truly having her back. However, depending on how she died, her suffering might've been his memories of her that the stone resurrected, or the tale made it all up just like it made up Death.

The stone is just as picky about its master as the wand. It does not seem to have worked for anyone other than Cadmus Peverell and Harry himself. We don't hear of any Gaunts who used the stone, nor do we hear from Dumbledore he succeded in using it (I don't think it's actually Dumbledore in the conversation in King's Cross as I mentioned above). Regardless, I think the real Dumbledore probably did try to use it, and I will hazard a guess he failed. Since the stone didn't choose him.

The Cloak is unique in many ways. Lasting centuries, way longer than any invisibility cloak can, passing from parent to child for generations. It also does a better job of concealing you than another invisibility cloak, if, it still has its limits:

“...We are talking about a cloak that really and truly renders the wearer completely invisible, and endures eternally, giving constant and impenetrable concealment, no matter what spells are cast at it. How many cloaks have you ever seen like that, Miss Granger?”

(DH, 354)

The cloak is similar to the other Hallows in how picky it is regarding its master. The cloak wouldn't belong to anyone who just possesses it, it's not enough. It has to be passed willingly on the owner's deathbed, as they great death as an old friend. It means that in the books, no one but Harry could be its owner.

All artifacts are powerful, but they aren't capable of anything that breaks the laws of nature (as the stone doesn't really resurrect), they are also sentient and picky, but it isn't something beyond the capacity of wizards. Why, we know of four wizards who made three sentient magical artifacts already — The Hogwarts founders.

The four founders enchanted the sorting hat together, but more relevant to the discussion of the Hallows are the Book of Admittance and the Quill of Acceptance.

At the precise moment that a child first exhibits signs of magic, the Quill, which is believed to have been taken from an Augurey, floats up out of its inkpot and attempts to inscribe the name of that child upon the pages of the Book (Augurey feathers are known to repel ink and the inkpot is empty; nobody has ever managed to analyse precisely what the silvery fluid flowing from the enchanted Quill is). Those few who have observed the process (several headmasters and headmistresses have enjoyed spending quiet hours in the Book and Quill’s tower, hoping to catch them in action) agree that the Quill might be judged more lenient than the Book. A mere whiff of magic suffices for the Quill. The Book, however, will often snap shut, refusing to be written upon until it receives sufficiently dramatic evidence of magical ability.

(from pottermore)

The idea of multiple sentient, powerful magical artifacts that need to agree is something wizards are capable of. And that, I think, is the secret to becoming the Master of Death — having all 3 Hallows pick you. Just like the book and quill need to agree a student should be admitted to Hogwarts.

Master of Death

Or more specifically what does that actually mean and why I think even if someone retrieved all 3 Hallows they wouldn't have become the Master of Death if their name isn't Harry James Potter.

This is definitely more in the headcanon territory, but the first scene that really made me think about it is the one in the Death Chamber in the Department of Mysteries. Because I think Harry and death always had a weird connection, it might've been around before the failed killing curse, and it was definitely around before Harry mastered all 3 Hallows.

So, why do I think Harry was always bound to be the Master of Death, and even if Dumbledore or Voldemort had all the Hallows it wouldn't have helped them?

There, are a few things that led me to this conclusion.

First, as I mentioned above, the cloak can not belong to anyone other than Harry in the books. It means that no one but Harry could master all of the Deathly Hallows, regardless of what they did.

Second, This first scene in the Death Chamber with the veil. I'll copy parts of it below and ask you to note, as you read, that Harry, Neville, and Luna are the only three who can see Thestrals and therefore should react more to the veil:

“Who’s there?” said Harry, jumping down onto the bench below. There was no answering voice, but the veil continued to flutter and sway. “Careful!” whispered Hermione. ... He had the strangest feeling that there was someone standing right behind the veil on the other side of the archway. ... “Let’s go,” called Hermione from halfway up the stone steps. “This isn’t right, Harry, come on, let’s go. . . .” She sounded scared, much more scared than she had in the room where the brains swam, yet Harry thought the archway had a kind of beauty about it, old though it was. The gently rippling veil intrigued him; he felt a very strong inclination to climb up on the dais and walk through it. “Harry, let’s go, okay?” said Hermione more forcefully. “Okay,” he said, but he did not move. He had just heard something. There were faint whispering, murmuring noises coming from the other side of the veil. “What are you saying?” he said very loudly, so that the words echoed all around the surrounding stone benches. “Nobody’s talking, Harry!” said Hermione, now moving over to him. “Someone’s whispering behind there,” he said, moving out of her reach and continuing to frown at the veil. “Is that you, Ron?” “I’m here, mate,” said Ron, appearing around the side of the archway. “Can’t anyone else hear it?” Harry demanded, for the whispering and murmuring was becoming louder; without really meaning to put it there, he found his foot was on the dais. “I can hear them too,” breathed Luna, joining them around the side of the archway and gazing at the swaying veil. “There are people in there!” .... “Sirius,” Harry repeated, still gazing, mesmerized, at the continuously swaying veil. “Yeah . . .” ... On the other side, Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the veil too.

(OotP, 773-775)

The interesting to note:

Luna, who can see Thestrals, also hears the whispering. I assume Neville does too.

Ron, Hermione, and Ginny are mesmerized but unnerved by the veil. Ron and Hermione seem to fight this memorization in their fear for Harry as he nears the veil.

Harry is the only one who is drawn to the veil He is the only one that moved, the only one whose feet take him against his will to the dias with the veil.

Harry thinks of it as oddly beautiful.

He has an urge to pass through that no one else does. All of them are frozen in place.

Harry is so affected he needs to be reminded twice that he's there to save Sirius before he can draw himself away from the veil.

Third, later in the book, after Sirius fell through the veil, there's this part:

He had reached the floor, his breath coming in searing gasps. Sirius must be just behind the curtain, he, Harry, would pull him back out again. . . . But as he reached the ground and sprinted toward the dais, Lupin grabbed Harry around the chest, holding him back. “There’s nothing you can do, Harry —” “Get him, save him, he’s only just gone through!” “It’s too late, Harry —” “We can still reach him —” Harry struggled hard and viciously, but Lupin would not let go. . . . “There’s nothing you can do, Harry . . . nothing. . . . He’s gone.”

(OotP, 806)

Harry's instinct to go through the veil to get Sirius out is so odd. The way he thinks that he himself can pull him out, not anyone else, but he... I don't know, but, this scene is interesting. It almost makes me feel Harry could pull Sirius back out. He defied death already once and will defy it again in the 7th book, so why not? Why wouldn't he be able to pull someone back from beyond the veil if they fell through just now (the timing is relevant, I don't think Hary could pull, say, his parents out).

My headcanon is that in that very moment if Lupin let Harry pull Sirius out, it would've worked. Caused a pandemonium about the fact Harry can apparently resurrect the dead (even if it's not really what he did), but that it would've worked. (I actually really want to write a fic like this)

Fourth, throughout the 7th book, once Harry finds out about the Hallows, he can't let the thought go. He knows his cloak is one, he is convinced the stone is in the snitch Dumbledore left him, way before he opened it. He just has a sense about it, and a fixation on it that's almost instinct:

Dumbledore had left the sign of the Hallows for Hermione to decipher, and he had also, Harry remained convinced of it, left the Resurrection Stone hidden in the golden Snitch. Neither can live while the other survives. . . master of Death. . . Why didn’t Ron and Hermione understand? “‘The last enemy shall be destroyed is death,”’ Harry quoted calmly

(DH, 374-375)

So, these are my reasons why I believe Harry is the only character in the books that could or would be the MOD. It's just that he always was, in a way. The Hallows already chose him before he ever held any of them.

But what does it mean to be the Master of Death?

“Well, of course not,” said Xenophilius, maddeningly smug. “That is a children’s tale, told to amuse rather than to instruct. Those of us who understand these matters, however, recognize that the ancient story refers to three objects, or Hallows, which, if united, will make the possessor master of Death.” ... “When you say ‘master of Death’—” said Ron. “Master,” said Xenophilius, waving an airy hand. “Conqueror. Vanquisher. Whichever term you prefer.”

(DH, 353)

We don't really get much besides this. Along with what's written on James and Lily's grave:

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(DH, 283)

Harry believes all phrases, along with the prophecy are connected and lead him to believe he should become the Master of Death:

Three objects, or Hallows, which, if united, will make the possessor master of Death. . . Master. . . Conqueror. . . Vanquisher. . . The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. . . . And he saw himself, possessor of the Hallows, facing Voldemort, whose Horcruxes were no match. . . Neither can live while the other survives. . . Was this the answer?

(DH, 369-370)

So what can the Master of Death do? Death isn't a personified deity, what is defeating or contouring death mean? Does it mean immortality?

I don't know if I'll say full immortality, I think the Master of Death can die the same way Ignotus Peverell did. I think Ignotus Peverell was the first Master of Death, in a way, he at least represented the concept:

And then he greeted Death as an old friend, and went with him gladly, and, equals, they departed this life

(DH, 352)

He was death's equal, he could escape it and live a fulfilling life, before choosing to meet Death on his own terms. I think that's what it means, that Death won't find Harry until he is ready to move on, and when he finally chooses to move on, Death would greet him with open arms.

The crux of it is the choice. That death can't touch you until you choose to allow it. And those who become Masters of Death, would always eventually choose to greet death, as these are the type of people the 3 Hallows would choose. It's all about choices.

(For the record, yes, I think there could be more than one MOD, I think Ignotus was until his death, and then in the books, Harry is)

And considering how much emphasis is put on choices and intentions in the magic of this world, it seems only right to be so relevant here too.

Like with the Mirror or Erised, which only let someone who wanted to have the Philosopher's Stone but not use it, have it; the Hallows won't choose a master who wouldn't, eventually, be willing to accept death. Because mastering death, isn't only not dying, it's understanding it, and accepting it. Both the deaths of others and eventually your own.

Also, as I mentioned above, I headcanon that Harry could pull Sirius out the moment he fell in through the veil. I don't think anyone but Harry could. I believe, as a Master of Death, Harry is the only wizard (well, being) that can go into the afterlife, walk past the veil, and come back out. A Master of Death is the only one who the afterlife isn't a one-way ticket for.

(Although, I think it's possible that if you wear the invisibility cloak you might be able to pass into the veil and come out even without being the MOD, but, I wouldn't bet on it)

Summary of my thoughts

The afterlife exists in the Wizarding World and nothing that passes beyond the veil can return. It's a one-way ticket.

The scene in Deathly Hallows with Dumbledore in King's Cross station limbo didn't actually happen.

Death, as a deity of sorts most likely doesn't exist.

The Peverell brothers were powerful wizards who made the Deathly Hallows and perhaps the veil too.

The Resurrection stone can't bring a soul back from beyond the veil so it does the next best thing — reviving an illusion of a memory.

All 3 Deathly Hallows are very sentient magical artifacts like the sorting hat. Each of them is very picky when choosing its own master.

When all 3 Hallows choose the same master, this person is the Master of Death.

Being the Master of Death means the MOD won't die until the time of their choice. But the MOD will always choose to die eventually because that's the kind of person the Hallows would pick.

There can, over time, be more than one MOD (not at the same time though). And it's possible Ignotus Peverell was one, in a way.

The MOD might be the only person who can go into the veil and come back out.

The invisibility cloak might also allow you to make a trip into the veil and then back out.

#harry potter #hp #harry potter thoughts #hp thoughts #harry potter theory #hp theory #hollowedtheory #wizarding world #asks #death harry potter #Peverell brothers #hollowedheadcanon #deathly hallows #master of death

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kivrin · 2 years

Text

reading

this week I read

Across the Green Grass Fields by Seanan McGuire (#6 in the Wayward Children series)

Whistleblower: My Unlikely Journey to Silicon Valley and Speaking Out Against Injustice by Susan Fowler

Becoming Eve: My Journey from Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi to Transgender Woman by Abby Stein

and started

God Land: A Story of Faith, Loss, and Renewal in Middle America by Lyz Lenz

Indian Tales of the Raj by Zareer Masani

Are You There, God? It’s Me, Margaret by Judy Blume

and acquired but did not start reading

An Underworld at War : Spivs, Deserters, Racketeers and Civilians in the Second World War by Donald Serrell Thomas

#books #reading #randomness #recording for my own interest #since time has no meaning

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goldenguillotines · 1 year

Note

58, 23 and 1!

58 - Let's Kill Tonight | PATD

Tragically thinks about Navika and Orvear... Artistic muse my abhorred. Specifically about Orvear becoming Navikas muse so to speak? It PAINS me.

23 - Mx. Sinister | I DONT KNOW HOW BUT THEY FOUND ME

Akaiss core. I hate that man. But it's him. I would even argue and ramble about how this fits his red/pale/pitch ngl but I will be normal.

1 - Lemonade | NCT 127 (I listened to this over 213 times. yes)

MILO. Milo. Milo. Milo. Milo. This song literally keeps their muse alive for always. I even thought about it kinda applying to their early relationship with Lyz where they were at a huge impasse.. I'm normal about this song.

#ask meme #ask #TY

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southitaly · 4 years

Text

On Historical Hetalia Collective

TW: anti-blackness and anti-Indigenous racism, Islamophobia, abusive language, gaslighting.

Posting on a burner acct mainly because I’ve survived tumblr death threats/doxxing before and don’t want to deal with it again. I’ve been contemplating coming forward about this for a while — it’s been three and a half years since this transpired. In the historical APH fandom in particular, we are especially prone to thinking we are different from the “fashy” fans who don’t have a problem with Nazi Germany being a character in the show, with its casual dismissal of colonial and genocidal history, and its erasure of the Shoah and the war crimes of imperial Japan (amongst scores of other things). Those of us who enjoy playing with the premise and focusing on a more faithful depiction of history seem to think we are exempt from recreating those same oppressive structures in our own work, in our own fandom groups and relationships. This is absolutely not the case.

Most of this took place approx. January through May 2017. I was freshly 21 at the time and the people responsible were ~19-20; I recognize that people change, and make mistakes, and grow, especially at that age. But I can also safely say at 19 I was not doing or saying these kinds of things to people, and that if I did and have forgotten, I believe I should be held responsible for those things. That being said, I also believe that these events must be brought to light.

I joined historical hetalia collective in the late summer of 2016 at its founding. At the time, I did not emphasize my Métis identity because, as someone who is also Italian and has a strong interest in Italian history, it was not the focus of why I wanted to join and what I wanted to discuss. I was very excited to talk with other creators in what I assumed was an anti-racist, canon-critical setting. Lyz, then “yelyzavetaart” on tumblr, along with one other person was a founder. I was the first person appointed as a moderator, eventually joined on the moderator team of about five people, including Alex stirringwinds and a white Ukrainian-American person who went by “ilaaer”.

It was around winter 2016 that a user named Baguette (at the time petitebaguette on tumblr) joined. Baguette very quickly began saying incredibly racist things in the server; most did not address it. Baguette maintained that reverse racism was real, that white women were targeted specifically for sexual violence by men of color, & that Europe does not owe reparations to First Nations and other Indigenous people, amongst other things.

When I voiced discomfort — pointing out that as an Indigenous person, much of her racism was pointed at people like myself in particular and not necessarily at the non-Black, non-Indigenous others to the same extent— people on the mod team were quick to tell me that I was being out of line and aggressive in my approach. When I advocated for her to be banned, others on the team were quick to give her another warning, another chance, instead. This resulted in an incredibly hostile environment; instead of a racist European being told to examine her bigotry, the group decided it was more important to tell me to watch my tone.

I truly began to question my own experience and all of my relationships on the server. All of these people who I loved to speak to about history and things I cared about did not actually care about my well being, let alone that of others experiencing similar things. I was not more important than the collective’s optics; standing in solidarity with Native people was less important than any bridges that might be burned in doing so. I was concerned about the effect that such rhetoric going unchallenged would have on younger members; I did not like what kind of conclusions were being encouraged.

It culminated when Baguette posted about the “preferential” treatment Muslims got from the French government over Christians, a major Islamophobic dogwhistle. As someone who has also lived in France I decided to challenge her on her beliefs. When she reacted poorly, I was blamed, stripped of my moderator title, and effectively banned as well.

Upon telling me I was being removed, Lyz said something to the effect of me being “hostile” towards a person who said genocide, as a European, was not her problem, and that members in the collective should not be “caught in the crossfire” of our dispute. I would argue that being on the receiving end of a racist tirade is not a “personal dispute” -- the team absolutely failed to address the problem and then also blamed the person who was being targeted.

While I commend Lyz for trying to be diplomatic at the time, Lyz had zero problem banning an openly homophobic European (by the name of Nessai) a few months prior. Somehow, when the question of Native people came up, Lyz — and the other non-Natives on the administrative “board” — could not summon that same conviction. Somehow, a Native person could not be given that same empathetic treatment. Baguette’s racism was condemned in private, sure, but decisive anti racist action was far too “radical”. I should not have to elaborate on how and why this is racist.

In short, tumblr user petitebaguette (now sartreslemonade) was a virulent racist. Users Alex stirringwinds, Lyz neviart, ilaaer, and many others were not only complicit, but enabled that behavior by systematically gaslighting and then deplatforming the one Native person on the moderator team who demanded she be removed for her actions. All of them should be held responsible, and creators of color (especially Black and Indigenous creators) in the APH fandom should be aware of this.

I have included screenshots of some of these conversations below — I sincerely invite others to make the judgment themselves. I know of at least one other Native person who had similar problems in this same collective, not long after I left. I do not know if there are others — I know people can and do change. I hope that by the time this is posted, all those mentioned can and are doing better by Native and Black people. I hope that my story does not repeat itself in other mouths with the same cast of people. I have included what I have been able to recover/keep over the years: my letter of dismissal from Lyz, some of the things Baguette was saying, the interaction between myself and Baguette when talking about anti-indigenous racism in France, and Alex’s response to that conversation.

Lyz’s letter:

Some examples of the things Baguette was saying:

Interaction between myself and her about reparations for Native people:

Alex’s response:

#aph #hetalia #axis powers hetalia #historical hetalia #hetalia: axis powers

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