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skitskatdacat63 · 4 months

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Tradition vs Modernity vs Comradery

+ context & lore:

In the first drawing, Fernando is wearing a capote de paseo, which is what bullfighters wear before the match begins, as seen below:

In the second, Seb is shouting the very familiar "Olé" which is shouted by the crowd to praise the matador. He's a little brat, so of course he's yelling it for himself, but he did get many 💐

The third(which was a random sketch I had that I didn't think I'd finish tonight, so ignore if its messy) has very important context to me. Before going to the final act and killing the bull, matadors dedicate their montera(hat)(and symbolically: their kill) to a a specific person in the audience(or just the public as a whole.) Seb and Fernando are finally in the same color! Seb is bowing!!! And Fernando is honoring Seb!!!! Also ignore that I drew Seb's post-retirement hair. Though, maybe this drawing is supposed to represent Fernando making a dedication to his now-gone rival 😔(Seb: stop telling people im dead!)

Now, some more lore :D

So I talked about this in my last matador post but I'll expand more. I think it's very funny to characterize Fernando in this au as this fun-hating traditionalist. Because you have to understand; he's only this way when it comes to Seb. Because you absolutely KNOW he was doing silly, unserious shit back when he was younger. But absolutely god forbid Seb do anything silly.

It's very ironic because there literally is a part in the third act of a bull fight where it's basically encouraged to be a bit silly. This is a tad morbid, but basically right before they deliver the killing blow, some show their mastery over the bull by doing some superfluous action(ex. kissing the bull, kneeling in front of the bull.) There's some guy who literally would lean on the bull and mime taking a call. But anyways, Seb would def do this. I've not been able to draw it exactly how I want, but he would bend down and do his little bull horn symbol and mime charging at the bull. (Fernando, trying to make up reasons to hate Seb: oh my god, look at this blatant disrespect, look how he is disrespecting the bull, I cannot believe how rude this boy is!)

Also there's something to be said about how the matador shows mastery over the bull by kissing it or bowing to it...and Seb is technically the bull in this au and Fernando is the matador. There's just this unfortunate level of weird power inbalance that still lingers even though their rivalry is over and can't be affected anymore. There was no succinct answer about who truly was better because Seb was forced out of it. So there's always gonna be this level of "is he just pitying me? Is he just mocking me? Is he just patronizing me?" on Seb's part whenever Fernando praises him or makes dedications to him. And Fernando's always going to be haunted by the fact that there's no answer to who is truly better because he'll never know if Seb had reached his full potential or not. Anyways, they also have nasty sex while wearing their costumes and do weird bull/matador roleplay :)

#god do not ask me at what time i am writing this post #its genuinely so bad and terrible 😭#i meant to only draw the first two but remembered i had the sketch of the third one #and thought hey might as well finish it!! at a uhhhhh already late hour #BUT HEY I DREW THEM ALL AND I LIKEY SO :)#third one is a bit messy tho cause im still not 100% on what i want their 'aston' era clothes to look like #but good enough for [undisclosed hour] so yes hello please take more matador au :)#was just pondering drawing more chibis bcs ive made more aus since those chibi sets i drew #and now have these so :) yayyy matadorsssss :D #but anyways the joke of this post is that whole modernity vs tradition meme so hope that makes sense :)#its super late and my brain is lacking comprehensive thought so i hope this all makes sense #catie.art.#f1 #formula 1 #sebastian vettel #fernando alonso #vettonso #matador au

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give-grian-rights · 3 months

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can someone tell me why im being abnormal about a character i've barely touched the content of. like yay yippie i watched like 20 hours of you. there's fucking 80 years of content get me OUT OF HERE?

#yeah this is about nightwing. yes im a freak about him no i don't do well with comics #shout out to duke thomas in the we are robin comic i've had in my browser tabs for three weeks now #sorry king.#i mean i guess it makes sense because theres So many characters in media that you can't even get 20 hours out of . but. BUT ITS NOT FAIR.#i want to read comics so bad. i try to. i have. i've started several #blue beetle 2009 nightwing 2016... superman & batman world's finest #i was able to finish teen titans world's finest but that was only. like. six issues #comics as a medium just has this thing where. you're dropped in and it kinda expects you to know what's happening #and leaves you feeling like you started on the wrong page. like blue beetle. loved you but man that was not the greatest first comic to rea #wait i forgot i read hawkeye 2011(?) and that also had the same issue. but more so each installment like #felt like it was starting on a point AFTER something happened like i was meant to be reading another comic before i got to that issue.#i got. like. idk 18? 19? comics into that one. and 12 into nightwing. nightwing wasn't as bad but it just. gah. like several-issue long #stories carried across batman and nightwing and its like.OUGH.#i know im mutuals with a comic person. hi. i know you're cringing.#there are so many good characters to come out of comics. its just SO HARD to get into.#rn i dont have an excuse with We Are Robin. just that i've been infected with needing to play the sims for 8 hours a day.#mika-posts

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demigod-of-the-agni · 1 month

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Spider-Man India, but... where from India?

A SUPER long post featuring talks of: cultural identity, characterisation, the caste system, and what makes Spider-Man Spider-Man.

I’m prefacing this by saying that I am a second-generation immigrant. I was born in Australia, but my cultural background is from South India. My experiences with what it means to be “Indian” is going to be very different from the experiences of those who are born and brought up in India.

If you, reader, want to add anything, please reblog and add your thoughts. This is meant to be a post open for discussion — the more interaction we get, the better we become aware of these nuances.

So I made this poll asking folks to pick a region of India where I would draw Pavitr Prabhakar in their cultural wear. This idea had been on my mind for a long while now, as I had been inspired by Annie Hazarika’s Northeastern Spidey artwork in the wake of ATSV’s release, but never got the time to actually do it until now. I wanted to get a little interactive and made the poll so I could have people choose which of the different regions — North, Northeast, Central, East, West, South — to do first.

The outcome was not what I expected. As you can see, out of 83 votes:

THE RESULTS

South India takes up almost half of all votes (44.6%), followed by Northeast and Central (both 14.5%) and then East (13.3%). In all my life growing up, support towards or even just the awareness of South India was pretty low. Despite this being a very contained poll, why would nearly half of all voters pick South India in favour of other popular choices like Central or North India?

Then I thought about the layout of the poll: Title, Options, Context.

Title: "Tell us who you want to see…"

Options: North, Northeast, Central, East, West, South

Context: I want to make art of the boy again

At first I thought: ah geez. this is my fault. I didn't make the poll clear enough. do they think I want them to figure out where Pavitr came from? That's not what I wanted, maybe I should have added the context before the options.

Then I thought: ah geez. is it my fault for people not reading the entire damn thing before clicking a button? That's pretty stupid.

But regardless, the thought did prompt a line of thinking I know many of us desi folk have been considering since Spider-Man India was first conceived — or, at least, since the announcement that he was going to appear in ATSV. Hell, even I thought of it:

Where did Spider-Man India come from?

FROM A CULTURALLY DIVERSE INDIA

As we know, India is so culturally diverse, and no doubt ATSV creators had to take that into account. Because the ORIGINAL Spider-Man India came from Mumbai — most likely because Mumbai and Manhattan both started with the same letter.

But going beyond that, it’s also because Mumbai is one of the most recognisable cities in India - it’s also known as Bombay. It’s where Bollywood films are shot. It’s where superstar Hindi actors and actresses show up. Mumbai is synonymous with India in that regard, because the easiest way Western countries can interact with Indian culture is through BOLLYWOOD, through HINDI FILMS, through MUMBAI. Suddenly, India is Mumbai, India is a Hindi-only country, India is just this isolated thing we see through an infinitely narrow lens.

We’ve gotten a little better in recent years, but boy I will tell you how uncomfortable I’ve gotten when people (yes, even desi people) come up to me and tell me, Oh, you’re Indian right? Can you speak Hindi? Why don’t you speak Hindi? You’re not Indian if you don’t speak Hindi, that’s India’s national language!

I have been — still am — so afraid of telling people that I don’t speak Hindi, that I’m Tamil, that I don’t care that Hindi is India’s “national” language (it’s an administrative language, Kavin, get your fucking facts right). It’s weird, it’s isolating, and it has made me feel like I wasn’t “Indian” enough to be accepted into the group of “Indian” people.

So I am thankful that ATSV went out of their way to integrate as much variety of Indian culture into the Mumbattan sequence. Maybe that way, the younger generation of desi folk won’t feel so isolated, and that younger Western people will be more open to learning about all these cultural differences within such a vast country.

BUT WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH SPIDER-MAN INDIA?

Everything, actually. There’s a thing called supremacy. You might have heard of it. We all engaged with it at some point, and if you are Indian, no matter where you live, it is inescapable.

It happens the moment you are born — who your family is, where you are born, the language you speak, the colour of your skin; these will be bound to you for life, and it is nigh impossible to break down the stereotypes associated with them.

Certain ethnic groups will be more favourable than others (Centrals, and thus their cultures, will always be favoured over than Souths, as an example) and the same can be said for social groups (Brahmins are more likely to secure influential roles in politics or other areas like priesthood, while the lowers castes, especially Dalits, aren’t even given the decency of respect). Don’t even get me started on colourism, where obviously those of fairer skin will win the lottery while those of darker skin aren’t given the time of day. It’s even worse when morality ties into it — “lighter skinned Indians, like Brahmins, embody good qualities like justice and wisdom”, “dark skinned Indians are cunning and poor, they are untrustworthy”. It’s fucking nuts.

This means, of course, you have a billion people trying to make themselves heard in a system that tries to crush everyone who is not privileged. It only makes sense that people want to elevate themselves and break free from a society that refuses to acknowledge them. These frustrations manifest outwardly, like in protests, but other times — most times — it goes unheard, quietly shaping your way of life, your way of thinking. It becomes a fundamental part of you, and it can go unacknowledged for generations.

So when you have a character like Pavitr Prabhakar enter the scene, people immediately latch onto him and start asking questions many Western audiences don’t even consider. Who is he? What food does he eat? What does he do on Fridays? What’s his family like, his community? All these questions pop up, because, amidst all this turmoil going on in the background, you want a mainstream popular character to be like you, who knows your way of life so intimately, that he may as well be a part of your community.

BUT THAT'S THE THING — HE'S FICTIONAL

I am guilty of this. In fact, I’ve flaunted in numerous posts how I think he’s the perfect Tamil boy, how he dances bharatanatyam, how he does all these Tamil things that no one will understand except myself. All these niche things that only I, and maybe a few others, will understand.

I’ve seen other people do it, too. I’ve seen people geek out over his dark brown skin, his kalari dhoti, how he fights so effortlessly in the kalaripayattu martial arts style. I’ve seen people write him as Malayali, as Hindi, as every kind of Indian person imaginable.

I’ve also seen him be written where he’s subjected to typical Indian and broader Asian stereotypes. You know the ones I’m so fond of calling out. The thing is, I’ve seen so much of Pavitr being presented in so many different ways, and I worry how the rest of the desi folk will take it.

You finally have a character who could be you, but now he’s someone else’s plaything. Your entire life is shaped by what you can and can’t do simply because you were born to an Indian family, and here’s the one person who could represent you now at the mercy of someone else’s whims. He’s off living a life that is so distant from yours, you can hardly recognise him.

It shouldn’t hurt as much as it does, yeah? But, again, you’re looking at it from that infinitely narrow lens Westerners use to look at India from Bollywood.

AND PAVITR PRABHAKAR DOESN'T LIVE IN INDIA

He lives in Mumbattan. He lives in a made-up, fictional world that doesn’t follow the way of life of our world. He lives in a city where Mumbai and Manhattan got fucking squashed together. There are so many memes about colonialism right there. Mumbattan isn’t real! Spider-Man India isn’t real!! He’s just a dude!! The logic of our world doesn’t apply to him!!!

“But his surname originates from ______” okay but does that matter?

“But he’s wearing a kalari dhoti so surely he’s ______” okay but does that matter?

“But his skin colour is darker so he must be ______” okay but does that matter?

“But he lives in Mumbai so he must be ______” okay but does that matter?

I sound insensitive and brash and annoying and it looks like I’m yapping just for the sake of riling you up, so direct that little burst of anger you got there at me, and keep reading.

Listen. I’m going to ask you a question that I’ve asked myself a million times over. I want you to answer honestly. I want you to ask this question to yourself and answer honestly:

Are you trying to convince me on who Pavitr Prabhakar should be?

... but why shouldn't i?

I’ll tell you this again — I did the same thing. You’re not at fault for this, but I want you to just...have a little think over. Just a little moment of self-reflection, to think about why you are so intent on boxing this guy.

It took me a while to reorganise my thinking and how to best approach a character like Pavitr, so I will give you all the time you need as well as a little springboard to focus your thoughts on.

SPIDER-MAN (INDIA) IS JUST A MASK

“What I like about the costume is that anybody reading Spider-Man in any part of the world can imagine that they themselves are under the costume. And that’s a good thing.”

Stan Lee said that. Remember how he was so intent on making sure that everybody got the idea that Spider-Man as an entity is fundamentally broken without Peter Parker there to put on the suit and save the day? That ultimately it was the person beneath the mask, no matter who they were, that mattered most?

Spider-Man India is no less different. You can argue with me that Peter Parker!Spidey is supposed to represent working class struggles in the face of leering corporate entities who endanger the regular folk like us, and so Pavitr Prabhakar should also function the same way. Pavitr should also be a working class guy of this specific social standing fighting people of this other social standing.

But that takes away the authenticity of Spider-Man India. Looking at him through the Peter Parker lens forces you to look at him through the Western lens, and it significantly lessens what you can do with the character — suddenly, it’s a fight to be heard, to be seen, to be recognised. It’s yelling over each other that Pavitr Prabhakar is this ethnicity, is that caste, this or that, this or that, this or that.

There’s a reason why he’s called Spider-Man India, infuriatingly vague as it is. And that’s the point — the vagueness of his identity fulfils Lee’s purpose for a character that could theoretically be embodied by anyone. If he had been called “Spider-Man Mumbai”, you cut out a majority of the population (and in capitalist terms, you cut out a good chunk of the market).

And in the case of Spider-Man India? Whew — you’ve got about a billion people imagining a billion different versions of him.

Whoever you are, whatever you see in Pavitr, that is what is personal to you, and there is nothing wrong with that, and I will not fault you for it. I will not fault you for saying Pavitr is from Central due to the origins of his last name. I also will not fault you for saying Pavitr is from South due to him practising kalaripayattu. I also will not fault you for saying he is not Hindu. I also will not fault you for saying he is a particular ethnicity without any proof.

What I will fault you for is trying to convince me and the others around you that Pavitr Prabhakar should be this particular ethnicity/have this cultural background because of some specific reason. I literally don’t care and it is fundamentally going against his character, going against the “anyone can wear the mask” sentiment of Spider-Man. By doing this, you are strengthening the walls that first divided us. You’re feeding the stratification and segmentation of our cultures — something that is actually not present in the fictional world of Mumbattan.

Like I said before: Mumbattan isn’t real, so the divides between ethnicities and cultural backgrounds are practically nonexistent. The best thing is that it is visually there for all to see. My favourite piece of evidence is this:

It’s a marquee for a cinema in the Mumbattan sequence, in the “Quick tour: this is where the traffic is” section. It has four titles; the first three are written in Hindi. The fourth title is written in Tamil. You go to Mumbai and you won’t see a single shred of Tamil there, much less any other South Indian language. Seeing this for the first time, you know what went through my head?

Wow, the numerous cultures of India are so intermingled here in Mumbattan! Everyone and everything is welcome!

I was happy, not just because of Tamil representation, but because of the fact that the plethora of Indian cultures are showcased coexisting in such a short sequence. This is India embracing all the little parts that make up its grander identity. This scene literally opened my eyes seeing such beauty in all the diverse cultures thriving together. In a place where language and cultural backgrounds blend so easily, each one complementing one another.

It is so easy to believe that, from this colourful palette of a setting, Pavitr Prabhakar truly is Spider-Man India, no matter where he comes from.

It’s easy to believe that Pavitr can come from any part of India, and I won’t call you out if the origin you have for him is different from the origin I have. You don’t need to stake out territory and stand your ground — you’re entitled to that opinion, and I respect it. In fact, I encourage it!!!

Because there’s only so much you can show in a ten minute segment of a film about a country that has such a vast history and even greater number of cultures. I want to see all of it — I want him to be a Malayali boy, a Hindi boy, a Bengali boy, a Telugu boy, an Urdu boy, whatever!! I want you to write him or draw him immersed in your culture, so that I can see the beauty of your background, the wonderful little things that make your culture unique and different from mine!

And, as many friends have said, it’s so common for Indian folks to be migrating around within our own country. A person with a Maharashtrian surname might end up living in Punjab, and no one really minds that. I’m actually from Karnataka, my family speaks Kannada, but somewhere down the line my ancestors moved to Tamil Nadu and settled down and lived very fulfilling lives. So I don’t actually have the “pure Tamil” upbringing, contrary to popular belief; I’ve gotten a mix of both Kannada and Tamil lifestyles, and it’s made my life that much richer.

So it’s common for people to “not” look like their surname, if that’s what you’re really afraid about. In fact, it just adds to that layer of nuance, that even despite these rigid identities between ethnicities we as Indian people still intermingle with one another, bringing slivers of our cultures to share with others. Pavitr could just as well have been born in one state and moved around the country, and he happens to live in Mumbattan now. It’s entirely possible and there’s nothing to disprove that.

We don’t need to clamber over one another declaring that only one ethnicity is the “right” ethnicity, because, again, you will be looking at Pavitr and the rest of India in that narrow Western lens — a country with such rich cultural variety reduced to a homogenous restrictive way of life.

THE POLL: REINTERPRETED

This whole thing started because I was wondering why my little poll was so skewed — I thought people assumed I was asking them where he came from, then paired his physical appearance with the most logical options available. I thought it was my fault, that I had somehow influenced this outcome without knowing.

Truth is, I will never really know. But I will be thankful for it, because it gave me the opportunity to finally broach this topic, something that many of us desi folk are hesitant to talk about. I hope you have learned something from this, whether you are desi or a casual Spider-Man fan or someone who just so happened to stumble upon this.

So just…be a little more open. Recognise that India, like many many countries and nations, is made up of a plethora of smaller cultures. And remember, if you’re trying to convince Pavitr that he’s a particular ethnicity, he’s going to wave his hand at you and say, “Ha, me? No, I’m one of the people that live here in the best Indian city! I’m Spider-Man India, dost!”

(Regardless, he still considers you a friend, because to him, the people matter more to him than you trying to box him into something he’s not.)

#long post + more tags that kinda spiral away BUT expand on the points above AND kinda puts everything together concisely #BROS THIS IS AN HONEST TO GOD ESSAY #THAT HAS BEEN COOKING IN MY HEART FOR A WHILE NOW. SIMMERING FOR MONTHS BEFORE FINALLY BOILING OVER IN THE LAST WEEK #genuinely hope you read MOST of it because yes it has Quite A Lot Of Exposition but it all matters nonetheless #put in a lot of thought into this so i expect you to do your part and challenge your thoughts as well #you see how i'm not asking for you to listen to me. but to actually Think. i want you to cook your thoughts and add some spice and flavour #and give it a good mix so you can come out of this a little more wiser than before #because!!! yeah!!!! spider man india is just that!! he's indian!!!!! we don't need to collectively agree on where he comes from #bc it gets rid of that relatability factor of spider man. at the most basic level #think of it as a schrodinger's. he is every single culture and none of them at the same time. therefore none of us are wrong!! sick!!!!#pavitr's first priority is making sure HIS PEOPLE are safe. that's probably as far as we can go that relates him back to peter parker spide #he loves his people and working in the name of justice to FIGHT for HIS PEOPLE is just the duty/responsibility he takes up #it makes sense that he loves everyone and every culture he engages with bc that's the nature of spider man i suppose #if peter parker spidey acts as the guardian for the regular folk.. then in my mind pavitr spidey stands as the bridge uniting the people #because society as its core is very fragmented. and having pavitr act as a connection to other folks.... mmmmm beautiful #that's what i'm talking abouttttt !!!#anyways guys this is literally 3001 words on my document EXCLUDING THE TITLE. THAT'S 7 PAGES AT 11pt FONT. i'm literally cryingggg wtf #pavitr prabhakar #spider man #spider man india #desi #desiblr #atsv #across the spiderverse #atsv pavitr #indian culture #india #desi tumblr #what the fuck do i tag this as #agnirambles

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godblooded · 3 months

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just an fyi, and it feels like it needs to be said here: your blog is your own space and you should be able to say whatever the fuck you want. if you’re sad? vent. get sad. maybe put it under a cut, definitely tag it, but get sad. if you feel like you need someone to talk to? drop a freaking message about how you’re feeling like you could use a buddy, or anything randomly engaging. if you’re having a hard time, you should feel safe and okay to talk about it in your own space. we’re writers and we’re people and while there’s a lot to be said for how engagement outside of oneself is necessary in rp (and really really needs to improve), i think there’s a lot that must be said about people reaching out to others. it’s become so solitary here — the whole ‘reblog from source’ thing when it comes to shit like about and musings is absurd. the whole refusing to like things is ridiculous. yes, curate your space, that’s important, but curating your space into a studio apartment only you live in doesn’t make this a community anymore, it makes it a studio apartment you live in.

just be yourself here. do whatever you want. but i’m always saying: remember you’re not alone, and don’t let yourself feel that way.

#ooc. o kaptain.#[this is illogically worded and after an argument I’m already upset but I just felt like this has to be put here. it’s been sitting on my #brain for so long and it’s something i just wanted to discuss. the way the rpc has become not even an echo chamber just… a shitty ny #apartment only one person lives in that can fit your fridge and your bedroom in the same room. the way literal fandoms have divided each #other through nothing but massive senses of entitlement and so much gatekeepy fucking language. it’s exhausting to watch this happen #literally all because i have no idea where interaction went and yes I’ve been virtually inactive for months now but. it absolutely isn’t for #lack of trying to come back. it’s hugely due to a lack of interaction whenever I reach out and then the feeling like I’m being either #entertained or dismissed. this is a social space and we’re people and everybody just needs to recognize that. like. last week my introverted #broski started discussing how as he’s older he feels loneliness more tangibly but he hates people and i looked right at him and said …yeah #dude. that’s natural. we’re humans. we need each other to live. we need spaces we create and communities we make. but like. there need to be #interactive people in those spaces. we’re social creatures. i love you guys and this is a ramble but… it’s been on my mind awhile. and #frankly? feels kinda good to finally speak my mind.]

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nerevar-quote-and-star · 3 months

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Okay, here are my current notes on the Markarth Incident. This is more of an evolution of thought rather than a final product, 'kay? 'kay. XOXO

4E 174 – The Empire recalls all Legions from the far corners of the Empire to participate in the final assault against the Aldmeri-held Imperial City. Every town and city not on the frontlines is left with a skeleton garrison.

The Reachmen of Western Skyrim chooses to capitalize on this movement. The Reachmen populate an area of Western Skyrim, Eastern High Rock, and Northern Hammerfell. Although they appear similar to the Bretons of High Rock, they are wholly distinct, worshipping gods completely detached from those of Breton culture. During the Second Era, they once ruled Cyrodiil as the Longhouse Emperors; in recent history, they have lived subject to other races, primarily the Nords, who rule much of the Reach. More often than not, Reachmen are second-class citizens, though very rarely have they received decent though not preferential treatment from a Nordic Jarl.

When the Empire recalls their Legions, the capital of the Reach, Markarth, is left functionally undefended. A Reachman leader, Madanach, takes this opportunity to seize the city and install a Reachmen government in place of the Nords. Madanach declares himself King of the Reach and succeeds the Reach from Skyrim. Contemporary Imperial documents show that Madanach sent emissaries to Emperor Titus Mede II in an attempt to have the Reach recognized as its own Imperial Province wholly separate from Skyrim. Titus Mede appeared to have taken this into serious consideration, though he was unable to give it his full attention as the Empire was planning their attack on the Imperial City.

Conflicting reports on the time frame of the Reachman takeover exist. Reports vary between the takeover beginning in Fourth Era 174 and 177 when the conflict was over. Contemporary Imperial and Forsworn documentation claim that Madanach’s rule was relatively stable, saying he was fair to the Nords, his people ousted from power, and allowed them to remain in the city so long as they recognized his government. It is said that live around Markarth continued in the same way as before, though under the Reachmen rather than the Nords. It may be important to note that Nord landholders who “mistreated” their Reachmen servants were put to death.

The Nordic perspective (as shared by Jarl Igmund in Fourth Era 201) claims that the Reachmen takeover was violent, leading to a chaotic period in which Nords were heavily discriminated against and no civil cooperation between races.

[Madanach’s version of events MAY be closer to the truth. N.B: During his rule, he seems willing to help a group of dissident Blades in exchange for a favor.]

The White-Gold Concordat is signed 11th of Sun’s Dusk, Fourth Era 175; Surviving veterans of the Battle of the Red Ring return to their homes, including large populations of Nordic legionnaires. Talos worship is outlawed. Talos temples are closed, though many continue to worship him in private. Ulfric Stormcloak takes offense to the banning of Talos worship, viewing it as a central aspect of Nord culture. His father, Hoag, the Jarl of Windhelm and Bear of Eastmarch, does not legalize Talos worship despite Ulfric’s religiosity. It may be that he wishes to avoid a conflict with the Empire. Jarl Hrolfdir of Markath, in exile by Madanach’s government, promises Ulfric and his supporters religious freedom should they take back the Reach from the Reachmen. This is in blatant disregard of the White-Gold Concordat.

Ulfric leads a militia across Skyrim to the Reach where they took back Markarth. A few Reachmen leaders were imprisoned, though others were killed, along with most of their warriors, though some were driven off into the surrounding wilds. The survivors in exile began to call themselves the Forsworn. They attack Nords and the Empire indiscriminately due to anger and feelings of betrayal.

Most of the Reachmen leaders are killed. However, allegedly at the request of the Silver-Blood family, Madanach is taken prisoner and held in the depths of Cidhna Mine. The Forsworn claim that the Nords, under Jarl Hrolfdir and Ulfric Stormcloak, took back the city through an excess of unnecessary violence, putting to death or imprisoning anyone who had even spoken to Madanach or said his name. It is also said that the family members of those who were deemed to be against the Nords’ rule were imprisoned or killed, even down to young children. Purported Imperial propaganda puts forth that Ulfric himself killed everyone in Markarth who would not join his cause.

It is true that there was bloodshed and death of innocents during the retaking of Markarth. The factuality of this claim can be traced to those Reachmen who survived the incident, sharing their experiences twenty-five years afterward.

Jarl Hrolfdir was assassinated during attempted peace talks with the Forsworn after the retaking of Markarth. It may be that the incident only grew violent after this point due to Nordic retaliation.

Why would Ulfric and Jarl Hrolfdir use that much unnecessary violence and brutality against the Reachmen if they intended to negotiate with them afterward?

Perhaps Igmund instigates the brunt of the violence against the Reachmen following his father’s death.

Jarl Hrolfdir was marked for death by the Dark Brotherhood. It is unknown who performed the Black Sacrament on the Jarl. It is possible someone from outside the conflict placed the contract on Jarl Hrolfdir’s head as a means of sewing chaos between the opposing sides (it could have been Igmund or Raerek [crack theory; maybe the brother was trying to Lion King his way into power and failed miserably? Or one of them opposed making peace with the Reachmen], or perhaps it was the Aldmeri Dominion?). Regardless, the Jarl’s death is the probable instigator for the deaths of many of the Reachman remaining in Markarth.

The Imperial Legion shows up not long after the city is retaken. They are seemingly thankful that Ulfric’s militia took back the Reach. When Ulfric lets them into the city, he asks that they recognize the free worship of Talos that Jarl Hrolfdir had legalized in the Reach; otherwise, the Legion would be fought off. The Imperial Legate (or general?) present at the time okays Ulfric’s request, effectively breaking the White-Gold Concordat. Again. Not long after, the Thalmor discovered this and took issue with this breach of treaty. They give the Empire an ultimatum: disband Talos worship in the Reach or prepare for the Great War to be renewed.

Ulfric and his followers are arrested and imprisoned by the Empire as Talos worship is again banned. The Empire must crack down on cases of Talos worship across the province. In consequence of the incident, the Thalmor gain access to Skyrim for their Justiciars through an Embassy. This is allegedly to enforce the terms of the White-Gold Concordat after it had been broken by the Nords in Fourth Era 176/7, but on an underground level, this allows the Thalmor to hunt, capture, and torture suspected Talos worshippers. The coming of the Thalmor Justiciars to Skyrim is technically a domino effect caused by Ulfric’s demand for free and open Talos worship.

Jarl Hrolfdir’s assassination happens during Ulfric and his supporters imprisonment. It may be possible that it was Ulfric OR one of his men who performed the Black Sacrament (though how could they do this while in an Imperial prison? Ulfric had to smuggle out his eulogy for his father’s funeral – what is the Imperial prison smuggling system like? Could any of them have had access to a dead body? Smuggled in or that of a fellow prisoner?). Whoever performed the Black Sacrament on Jarl Hrolfdir is the root cause for the retribution killings of the Reachmen. (Perhaps it was Thonar Silver-Blood?)

Ulfric is an uncooperative asset to the Thalmor, not because he ever cooperated with them in the first place, but because he is the (unintended) reason they have such a strong foothold in Skyrim now.

#yes I know the timeline is conflicted by different parties #but since tes lore is conflicting all the time i reserve to take what makes sense to me and run like oblivion #ulfric is at fault here not because he crazy killed people but because he was a stupid guy in his late 20s and he didn't get subtlety yet #i guess? also how long after his imprisonment/torture by the dominion was this? dude's head was HOT #kinda thought igmund would be the funny choice here but nah a silver blood makes more sense #everyone here is an idiot except hoag who had the good sense to NOT be a part of this #this is important now because leara is going to markarth in keeping count act ii and I HAVE ALWAYS WANTED HER TO MEET MADANACH #saw a thing comparing madanach to nerevar indoril as they both were the only ones to unite the warring tribes/clans/house of their people #i also need to take a crash course in reachmen and figure out what the HECK cael's deal is #neither cael nor the markarth incident were supposed to be in keeping count AND YET HERE WE ARE #gladly accept feedback and thoughts but also please don't hurt me lore is too messy and he said she said what even the crap to get mad abou #I didn't know you were keeping count #ulfric stormcloak #markarth incident #forsworn #the great war #the elder scrolls #tes #skyrim #mod post #stuff like this is why I don't do lore posts #lore #meta #maybe? dunno ANYWAY #aldmeri dominion #madanach

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