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under-lore · 7 months

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Toby Fox once made a post saying that he didn't want to sell merch of Chara because it would trivialize what they meant in game and the message they carry, do you have any idea what he could have meant by this?

Well, obviously this topic is inherently speculative so take it with a grain of salt, but there still exists some room to try and analyse it nonetheless.

Here is the post in question :

First, he uses "i" in the first sentence, and then "Because".

This immediately tells us that Toby Fox personally is the one that is opposing merchandise of Chara being made, and that all the things which will come afterwards are about what he was intending to do with them as a character in Undertale and why that makes the idea of Chara merch bothersome to him.

This isn't the only time Toby has shown to be picky about Chara-related content. For example, he has only openly promoted fan content containing Chara once since the game was released (and they were not the main focus of it) whilst the rest of the cast is seen quite often.

In general, Toby is quite dodgy when it comes to the first fallen human as a character. Sometimes even acting as if they didn't exist.

But as the mail also repeats, that isn't because Toby doesn't care about Chara, but rather because he does care about their character. Like how Toby actually went ahead and personally intervened to change Chara's Tarot card (Along with removing the Gaster one entirely), even if those weren't even official merch anyways. He does care about how they're being portrayed at least.

Okay, so next is our main puzzle piece.

The reason why he doesn't want Chara merch is because Toby considers that merchandise of Chara would have to portray them in a way that does not allow to properly represent what Chara stands for in-game, and thus fail to convey the message that they were intended to carry.

To rephrase this, he considers that if he were to make Chara merch, then "merch Chara" would be incapable of portraying correctly what he actually intended "in-game Chara" to be, and thus miss out on a significant portion of their character & what could be taken from it.

So he would rather not have merch at all rather than to have merch that misses the point of who "in-game" Chara was intended to be.

Since the only direct hint we have about this is that what Toby meant couldn't have been portrayed with merch properly, then the only way to obtain more insight into what he meant exactly is to go about it the other way and to ask which pieces of Chara's character merch could have portrayed and work backwards.

A prime example of what could have been done for Chara merch would be content similar to the Tarot card mentioned earlier.

As that card shows, it is far from difficult to make designs that capture most of the concepts and themes that are explicit-genocide-route-dialogue-specific & are said by or associated to the character.

To cite only a few that can be seen from this card, life & deat & killing, power, demonic parallels, the number 9, the absolute, statistics, consequences, souls, knives, nothingness,...

(Side note : The person who made the Tarot card actually did not even know about the name "Chara" at the time, they weren't really a fan of the game and mostly went along with their first impression of the genocide route & the fanon of the time.)

Aside from perhaps their relationship with the player, there is frankly nothing about the direct Chara appearance at the end of genocide & the heavily Chara influenced flavor text of the end of the route that cannot be easily shown through merch. (Just look at all the fan content over the years)

And considering the way Toby acts merch-wise with Frisk and with Kris respectively, we can be pretty confident that their relationship with the player is not the reason that Chara merch is being blocked either.

So with that, we can be pretty much sure that what he meant wasn't about the explicit-genocide-route-only parts of in-game Chara.

Aside from the genocide route, the only other direct appearances of Chara are that of pre-death Chara. Between their fall into the underground and their death after the failure of the plan.

While we don't have clear cut examples like the Tarot card here, we do still run into the same problems.

The game implies a lot of things about pre-death Chara in many different ways. But all of those details or personality traits are either not much of a problem to portray or are also shared with other characters who do have merch made of them, meaning they can't be it either. (Its usually Undyne)

Not to mention that, when it comes to pre-death Chara, the game itself does show us some sepia artworks of Chara & The Dreemurrs. Like this one for example :

If properly representing those character traits of pre-death Chara was truly what this was all about, then why not simply make merch out of a colored version of that image if nothing else ?

It's in the game, right ? So surely it can't possibly be misrepresenting the game...

A trivialisation means to downplay something or to reduce it to something simpler.

If both pre-death Chara and genocide route-Chara & what the game shows about them could be represented with merch like any other character, but that Toby considers that doing so would still be missing out on an important part of Chara's character & their message, then the only conclusion would seem to be that Toby is not refering to any of the direct appearances of Chara in the game at all, but rather to another seemingly very important side of Chara that isn't shown directly in-game, and couldn't be through merch either.

While those could still be accurate in theory by themselves, making merch of Chara like this sepia art or the Tarot card would still be trivializing them in Toby's mind in the sense that it would be limiting Chara to only those things, and thus exclude that core part of their character from "merch Chara". Something that Toby refuses to do.

So our situation would seem to be : There is more to Chara than just what we are told about pre-death Chara and genocide route Chara. However, this part of Chara's character cannot be properly shown with merch yet is too important to ignore in Toby's mind.

There is one last thing we can say about what this part might be, though.

Toby seems quite insistant on the fact that this particular part of them was absolutely key to understanding what was Chara's role as a character in the game, and to understanding the message that he was trying to convey through this character.

A character's role & message can be conveyed through their story, through their actions, and through their mentality.

As we've seen earlier that this part of Chara was not an explicit appearance, the "actions" part is either minor enough to miss, or absent.

So it would seem we can be somewhat confident that this piece of Chara's character that Toby is worried about also either adds more implicit parts to Chara's story or gives important insight on their mentality (or both).

That would make Toby's core reason for not wanting to make merch of Chara be less about Chara's character itself and more about what the player is to understand from the way he constructed their character, which would match up with his words about it being "something that cannot be bought in a store", too.

Anddd... As far as purely impartial analysis goes, i think that's pretty much all that you can deduce, unless i've forgotten about something.

If you want my personal opinion on it, though, i would have to say that using NarraChara theory would be a really elegant way to fill up all those blanks.

Considering that the theory, if true, would constitute 90% of Chara's character & be absolutely crucial to understanding the character's mentality and the way they think or behave in different situations or routes, that would certainly make it key to understanding Toby's intent with the character relative to their message or what they would stand for.

I can also hardly see plausible alternatives. Considering that pre-fall Chara and post-game Chara are pretty dry wells in that regard and genocide Chara's words about when they were "brought back to life", the only moments left timeline-wise for this key part of Chara's character to happen would be during neutral/pacifist routes or during the part of the genocide route that weren't already brought up earlier. That would make it seem like a pretty natural answer.

But more importantly, anything to do with the NarraChara part of their character (if the theory was intended) literally couldn't be properly represented through merch.

Because, unlike the common fanon portrayal of it which exists for that same reason, NarraChara according to in-game flavor text wouldn't be a ghostly figure floating around Frisk, but rather a foreign entity sharing their body and their mind. Which is a crucial part to both how NarraChara would work in-world and to the morality-wise implications of it.

Of course, that didn't prevent some fans from sweeping that under the rug anyways, even though it misses one of the most important points of the character they're trying to represent.

That might just be why Toby would rather just not.

How would you make merch of that ? You would just be making merch of Frisk instead... Let alone portraying correctly such a complex character. It just wouldn't work. This is a pretty common problem for media with bodysharing characters, those mechanics and all the implications that follow genuinely just cannot be "sold in stores."

They are a purely psychological experience.

#undertale #chara #chara undertale #undertale chara #toby fox #narrachara #Also toby has already shown to like bodysharing dynamics in the past too

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carlyraejepsans · 7 days

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Ok genuine question, and if this comes off as rude I’m sorry, but I’ve heard you dislike No chocos interpretation of Chara I I wanted to ask why.

I allways thought there take on Chara’s aid of the player during the genocide run was pretty good.

well from my vague understanding of that blog it was actually run by multiple people (?) so my beef might be with someone specific and I'm just lumping all the mods together under the url.

i think the essay where they try to argue that asriel is being abused by chara is just about the most idiotic, self referential piece of "analysis" I've ever read. like, nearing jaru levels of "you cannot seriously believe what you're saying there HAS to be a catch right". chara... forced asriel to pick the buttercups for them because they would've blistered his hands which is a sign they're physically abusing him? seriously?

anyway, sure, i might even agree with some of their analysis of how NM chara plays out. yknow... if they didn't completely disregard every other run in the game and how it plays into their metanarrative as the pseudo-player character. they've gone on record multiple times saying they don't believe in narrachara unless it's in NM.

now I'm not the strictest narrachara believer myself—in the sense that I don't believe most flavor text is supposed to read as direct quotes from them, more as a nebulous representation of our/their feelings on what's going on. which is fitting! i think direct quotes would be detrimental in a run where our identification with chara isn't questioned (or is even affirmed, like in flowey's plea after the pacifist ending) because it would be needlessly driving a wedge between Us and Them. that... doesn't make it discardable though???

it feels like they got obsessed with their own idea of chara as a vicious "narcissistic" manipulator and cherry picked information from the canon that would make chara look bad while disregarding everything else. which, inevitably, means disregarding the metanarrative. and that's undertale analysis crime numero uno to me baby. tomato tomato etc

#answered asks #biscia hater moment #also like. they tried to ''gender'' chara in one of their essays. like try to find evidence of what they were #which tells me everything about how fundamentally wrong they interpret their character AND role in the story

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chara-flavored-text · 6 months

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Stay Determined #2 is underway!

Exams and Project due dates wrapped up, and I have a small time frame of freedom so I started working on Issue #2!

Really trying to take this srsly now and I fleshed out some new designs that matched the old ones in Determination. I hope to have it out soon, but I won't rush myself like the prev. issue (made it in 2 days lmao) as I want it to look good.

#undertale #chara-flavored-text #not plot #announcement

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insanelyadd · 2 years

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Knight Papyrus Theory

Before we start I am going to lay out everything we know about the Knight so far in Deltarune:

The Knight is choosing abandoned and little used rooms as locations for the fountains.

The Knight seemingly only makes one fountain a day.

The Knight hid in the closet from Noelle and Berdly, making the cyberworld fountain in there which rules out anyone with an alibi for this incident.

The Knight is a lightner because darkners cannot make fountains.

"Evidence" about the Knight I will ignore on purpose because it holds no weight to me:

The use of exclusively it/they pronouns for the Knight because the use is obviously to maintain the mystery.

The Queen’s holographic depiction of the Knight’s hand cannot be taken as a literal and accurate depiction because the actual film in the mansion states outright that the stream of darkness from the fountain obscures the Knight's true appearance, and the implication is that the Knight immediately left this world unlike the abandoned classroom.

The line about Communion from Spamton because Spamton is deeply unreliable as half of what he says are infomercial taglines. The words in parentheses can easily be interpreted as being synonyms or associated words to what he actually means to say. Plus the line is divorced from its full context in the conversation where his first use of communion without relation to the Knight is about his "transformation". The use of the word communion here is very unlikely to be literal or even religious (as the word communion's very definition has a non-religious variation). Spamton speaks in religious terms because a good chunk of spam emails are about religion, not because it's a legitimate hint.

The rest of this post will be under a read more because this is a Big Boi, like literally almost 4k

Step 1: Discussing Alternative Theories

I thought Kris was the knight?

We may have seen Kris open a fountain at the end of chapter 2 but this doesn't mean they're The Knight. I feel like the end of the chapter is another misdirect just like chapter 1. "Oh is Kris evil? Are they possessed by Chara?" Nah, they're just a little shit who wanted to go eat some pie. Chapter 2 brings about the same kind of gut reaction questions, which is a fair response, though I feel the need to point out that no mystery in UT or DR is ever so easily handed to us.

Kris, upon seeing the first dark fountain they and Susie encounter, reacts by fearfully backing away. Kris seemingly doesn't know what it is and their gut reaction is that it is scary. This wouldn't be how you'd expect them to react if they had already made one. Secondly the computer lab dark world had to have been made when Noelle and Berdly were already inside (with the closet flavor text implying that the Knight was in there). When the fountain is dispelled they're sitting at a desk with their homework out and they just think they fell asleep while doing it. Kris and Susie come to that world when it has already been made and when it's dispelled they're by the door.

If the characters' physical, light world bodies moved in conjunction with their dark world selves then at the very least they should all be right next to each other because they're so close together in the dark world. I also don't think Noelle and Berdly would have been able to easily dismiss the dark world as a dream if they had (somehow) walked into a Pulsing Darkness. I highly doubt Berdly would have needed more than one look at that to realize it was probably evil and shouldn't be messed with. Noelle is easy frightened and likes to be afraid but I think Berdly isn't the type of person who would make Noelle feel encouraged to do something spooky.

I heard a theory that a dead person reanimated by the dark world is the Knight?

Well to start I know this theory! And darkners can't make fountains. This is not subtext or implications, this is directly stated in chapter 2 by Queen, and Ralsei, who knows even more about how dark worlds work, does not refute this claim. This is why she tried to get Noelle to make a fountain and didn't try to make one herself.

Now this also applies to every theory that supposes a Darkner like Rouxls for instance could be the Knight.

What about Alvin?

I find the supposed motivations for this character to be completely disconnected to what we actually know about him. Beyond that Alvin is literally such a minor character that you could simply never interact with him and that doesn't build very much feelings towards him that would be in some way dismantled by the reveal of him as the Knight. Also the game itself sees him as such a minor character that he doesn't have a talk sprite and if you pick his name when you make your character before chapter 1 the narrator makes no remark about him at all, not even an "Interesting".

What about Asriel?

The man is not even in town. As previously stated the cyberworld fountain had to have been made with Berdly and Noelle already in the room.

What about Sans?

Sans doesn't feel like he wants to end the world or find escapism (the two major Knight profiles that could be argued). There's really nothing I can think of that casts suspicion on him at all. Yeah Sans is a little weirdo but not in DR. All the weird stuff about him is text options we say, that Toby wrote with the major Sans theory hype in mind. Nothing about him specifically is actually suspicious or unusual.

What about Gaster?

Gaster is already heavily implied to be in some way responsible for the creation of the secret bosses. The person responsible for making Jevil lose his mind is talked about by Seam in a way that implies they are a separate character from the Knight as well as giving the impression that Jevil (and Spamton if you consider where he is) were made to be what they are and in the positions they're in for some time before the fountains were made.

Using Gaster, a character we know nothing about, feels like an easy answer that is simultaneously not very compelling because we don't know anything about him. His supposed motivations could be anything, whether he's got good intentions or evil intentions are irrelevant because there's just no way to know. Narratively it means nothing if a man with no history is trying to make dark worlds for reasons none of us can properly guess.

What about the mayor?

Once again the cyberworld being made with two people already in the room (especially since one of them is Noelle) would imply that the mayor left in the middle of the day, but when we check with her aids in the office none of them mention her having left which feels like something notable since she keeps herself so busy. I also want to propose the idea that while she may come across as potentially harsh, I think there’s a non-zero chance that she just threw herself entirely into her work after whatever happened to Dess and has lost touch because of her grief.

What about Dess?

Dess is seemingly lost or even dead with one major possibility being that they are trapped inside the code. For a character in such a position we can't even say if it's possible for her to open the dark fountains. But there's also the still remaining factor that the Knight is sneaking around and doing this. Choosing little used rooms on purpose and hiding in a closet when people enter a room to use it, which isn't something someone who is trapped in seemingly total darkness would feel compelled to do.

What about the player?

Since we are the player I think we can rule us out since we didn't do anything.

The Knight is someone we haven't met yet and have never seen before

For the same reasons as the Gaster theory this doesn't make sense except it would be even worse because we have scraps of info on Gaster (speaks like how old people text, science nerd, possibly malevolent, perhaps deceased but very likely undead)

Step 2: Building a Profile of the Knight

Does the Knight have bad intentions

I feel like there is insufficient proof that the Knight is acting with malicious intent by making these dark worlds. At the moment what we have seen is that the Knight seemingly makes only a single dark world a day. If the Knight wanted to bring about the Roaring, there's no need for them to actively choose little used or totally abandoned rooms and no need for them to do so slowly, if they even know about the roaring at all (which seemingly no one but Ralsei did before the end of Chapter 2).

I feel confident that the probability the Knight even knows about the end of the world side effects is low. If they do know about it, it’s also possible that how ever the Knight even found out how to make dark worlds gave enough information about how they function that they could reason themselves into continuing to make them by saying “oh just one a day isn’t so bad” which once again circles around to the Knight being more irresponsible than outright. Homicidal. Plus it really doesn’t vibe with Toby’s storytelling methods for there to be just a straight up villain who wants to end the world (if you mention Chara I will stomp you to death with my hooves, they have nuances that people ignore).

Does the Knight have "good" intentions

So if it's very unlikely that the Knight wants to end the world on purpose then conversely we must consider the possibility that they have "good" intentions. It's very likely that they could have intentions that align with the kid's intentions in chapter 2. Every single one of them (including Kris despite their lack of vocal approval) loved the dark world because it gave them a sense of purpose and importance, it made them feel like they had control and were given the recognition they craved.

These are not purely noble intentions of course, they're pretty selfish even, but in this scenario the Knight doesn't know about the apocalyptic side effects of opening dark fountains, so self-fulfillment from stabbing the ground until it gives you a magical world doesn’t sound so bad. The desire to feel wanted, helpful, strong, and in control in ways you are not in the light world, I feel, could be a strong and compelling motivation for making dark worlds. Plus, since the Knight hid in the closet knowing two others would be in the dark world when it formed it could also be the desire to be seen as a cool figure since the leader of the dark worlds always seem to revere the Knight to some extent for what they've done and this effect may bleed over onto them, or maybe the Knight thinks that they’ll come to love the dark worlds like they do.

Inferences that can be made if the knight just has similar intentions as the kids did

The Knight feels like they lack purpose in the light world. The Knight is unlikely to have very many friends or social connections and is likely lonely. The Knight may feel strongly powerless about something. The Knight is unsatisfied with their life and wants to find an escape.

Step 3: Papyrus Points of Interest

Papyrus is the only main UT character who has yet to even speak to us, and that feels significant somehow. The steam page mentions him, and says he’s “busy”. I know some people who are worried that he won’t even make an appearance but he definitely will, when you type in his name when you make your character you get the response “Interesting” to typing in Papyrus, and also his text voice blips are in the game files.

A quick reminder of something that I find “interesting” is that in UT when you check Papyrus’ closet he says “There’s no one in my closet, except me sometimes”, which, given the place the Knight undoubtedly hid in chapter 2 it’s. Interesting.

You know what else is interesting? All the references that seem relevant to Papyrus (and Sans) specifically that are in Deltarune. The teleportation doors are identical to Sans’ door from undertale, the lounge chairs that Lancer and Susie relax on are almost identical to the one Sans is seen relaxing on in a kickstarter trailer for Undertale, Susie says she invited the guard she beat up to visit the garbage can which is a reference to something Papyrus says if you check the garbage can while on your hangout at his house, Ice-E’s pizza and the word search of course, I think it’s interesting that the first dark world is completely puzzle themed, checkers, legos those make sense for a room for small children but playing cards? CHESS? Those feel out of place for a kindergarten-preschool type room.

Continuing on with the references in the second hospital room when you check the two sinks it says “Perhaps there was one tall sink that was cut in half to create both of them” which is simultaneously a reference to the theory that Sans and Papyrus are pieces of Gaster and to Papyrus’ own Tall Sink from UT that is also referenced in the winter alarm clock dialog. This one probably isn’t a reference but the popup about making a knife out of spaghetti is interesting.

This concludes the little interesting tidbits section.

Step 4: Connections Between Papyrus and the Knight Profile We Have Built

What could Papyrus’ motivation for making these dark worlds even be?

My first instinct with this is actually solely based on the fact that when I was younger my family moved nearly once a year and I never was able to make long time friends. He just moved to town, it’s very unlikely that he knows anyone there, so I think he’s lonely. Sans’ first thought was trying to get Kris to hang out with his brother so surely Sans must be aware that his brother needs to make friends.

Now, I feel it isn’t a stretch to assume the base personality of every character is roughly similar to how they are in Undertale. Toriel is still motherly and a teacher, Alphys is still a pop culture nerd with anxiety who wants to be liked, Undyne is brash and assertive but good hearted, etc etc. There are - of course - notable differences, but not knowing people or disliking someone they normally like doesn’t really change the core of who they are.

So if we assume that Papyrus’ base personality is the same then it is very easy to say he is lonely and wants friendship, it’s also easy to assume that he would be a bit single-minded and ignore potential risks in his pursuit of his goals.

How could Papyrus even make the dark worlds?

I feel like just like you could presume that your preferred Knight candidate read about it in a book or heard about it online or something, you could presume the same about Papyrus. I feel like how the Knight even learned it will probably be explained in a later chapter, because it must be something that’s not written anywhere, but that’s all theory crafting for a different post.

Here’s a single sentence about the circumstantial evidence to support Knight Papyrus: The fountains only recently started opening and only recently have the skeletons moved to town. An interesting coincidence.

The Thematic Evidence

Now it’s time for the thematic evidence. There’s actually two sets of thematic evidence I want to go over with this.

I won’t tread too much on this ground when I can just link to the post that goes over one thematic point of your choices not mattering and how that matches Papyrus. Essentially, no matter what you do with Papyrus will change the outcome of your interactions with him, which matches the stated theme of your choices not mattering in Deltarune, which also reflects Flowey and his set up as the main antagonist of Undertale by making the stated theme “kill or be killed” which is something the player must show defiance towards by being merciful. In Deltarune it’s very likely that the final confrontation with the Knight will involve showing that the choices the Knight has made are detrimental and dangerous and they need to change their choices.

As for the other set of thematic evidence…

A continuously recurring theme in all of Deltarune is the theme of being forgotten. From Don’t Forget and nearly every song in chapter one having the leitmotif of it, to all the main characters feeling in some way left behind and abandoned, to all the dark worlds, even the one Kris makes, being in rooms no one uses anymore, and above all else ESPECIALLY the secret bosses.

Kris possibly feels left behind by their brother, Susie was basically left behind by the whole system and all their classmates, Ralsei literally lived alone in a completely empty dark world, Noelle lives essentially all alone because her sister is missing, her father is in the hospital, and her mom is a workaholic, Berdly outright says that he feels like no one cared about it before he became “smart”.

The three dark fountains we’ve seen so far have all been made in rooms that see no use or are totally abandoned, the classroom has likely not seen anyone since Alvin was a child, the computer lab has had a few people in there but is definitely not the bustling hub it presumably used to be with the internet down in town, even the living room hasn’t seen much use because Toriel and Kris just aren’t TV people, leaving the TV dusty and the room unused.

Now the secret bosses are the epitome of this theme, I actually realized this entire thematic throughline and connection to Papyrus because I was using it’s thematic connection to the secret bosses to try figuring out who the secret boss of this next dark world could be. Jevil is forgotten even amongst those of the forgotten classroom not just because he’s been locked away in prison for who knows how long but also because joker cards aren’t needed for most card games and you have to specifically buy packs that include them.

Spamton is forgotten not only because he was evicted from polite society and all traces of his existence have been pasted over with images of Queen so now he lives in a dumpster (the trash bin on a computer), but also spam emails most of the time are automatically flagged and put directly into a special folder you probably don’t even look in unless you’re trying to find an email that might have been accidentally put there by the automated system.

Papyrus is a character in Undertale who tries in every way that he can to be noticed and appreciated. Despite this, you’d be hard pressed to find a single character in Snowdin who even knows his name. His mailbox in comparison to Sans is surprisingly empty, and while you can read it as him just checking his box more often, he refers to his mailbox as his “emptiness” and the already discussed implication seems to be that he just doesn’t get mail from anyone. He says that he’s a dozen followers away from double digits online. He says “I NEVER WONDER WHAT HAVING LOTS OF FRIENDS IS LIKE” which is an obvious lie.

And of course. In the no mercy route, what does his check information say?

Forgettable

Papyrus has been on theme for Deltarune since 2015.

Step 5: But What about These Things?

How did he know of the classroom

Toriel spoke with Sans the day before Kris and Susie discovered the dark fountain in the abandoned classroom, it’s very possible she mentioned something about it to Sans and Sans passed that information on to Papyrus.

How did he get in there

There’s this sick little thing called Breaking And Entering /lh But also yeah it really isn’t out of the question that he broke in. Any Knight candidate that doesn’t actively go to school there or work as a teacher would have to break in to make that world? Seems not out of the realm of possibilities at all.

Why would an Undertale character get such a major role in Deltarune

This is just a personal observation but I think Toby obviously likes Papyrus a lot. He has the most lines of any character in UT by a long shot and is only about 300 lines behind THE NARRATOR. Toby Fox commissioned art of him over a year before the game's release. Toby made a special version of bonestrousle for UT trailers and it has been featured in nearly every single undertale trailer that’s been made.

Outside of that rather subjective line of reasoning I also think Papyrus could have a major role because, as I have previously laid out, he thematically has very strong ties to deltarune, and we know literally nothing about Papyrus’ backstory in UT. I feel like Papyrus, despite all the lines he gives, is rather understated in his presence in UT. Like you can’t get the TP ending without his help, and if you kill him and only him, Undyne still manages to rally monsters to overthrow Toriel. But these aren’t big flashy moments like Sans’ fight, so they’re rarely acknowledged.

I feel there is potential for him to be important, and it is irrelevant that he was originally from Undertale. The amount of lightner characters (specifically because only they could open the fountains) exclusive to Deltarune are miniscule and most are very obviously not the Knight. Just from a pure numbers perspective the odds of the Knight being a character exclusive to DR are much smaller because there’s still more characters that are here that are also in UT.

Also Toriel is obviously going to be in the darkworld in this next chapter, so the Undertale characters are obviously not totally banned from partaking in the actual Plot.

Why would he be similar to his UT counterpart

As I mentioned, none of the characters at their core are super different to their UT counterparts. This isn’t like the fandom where you can make up whatever personality you want and then have it inhabit a Sans shaped shell. Toby has an obviously different interpretation of AUs, and in his AU the characters are a lot like they are in UT. It would be way more unusual at this point if Papyrus is revealed to be drastically different than his UT counterpart at all. He’s not going to be an asshole, he isn’t going to be internet famous, we’ve already observed that he isn’t outgoing (which, contrary to popular belief, does still fit how UT Papyrus is). You could even take the sounds of trousled bones growing farther away from us when we check the door to mean that Papyrus is moving away from reality and sinking further into the fantasy of the dark worlds.

#papyrus #knight papyrus #deltarune #undertale #deltarune theory #deltarune analysis

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stainedglassthreads · 1 year

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Thinking about it. People have discussed to death and debated over whether Chara was ‘good’ or ‘evil’, and talked about their feelings on fandom’s early tendency to cast them as a villain. But now I’m wondering why a lot of fanworks cast them as a hyperactive little shit who swears a lot, gets mad easily, argues with everyone, and is sassy as hell.

Sassy and sarcastic I can see if you’re going by Narra Chara. But rude, hyperactive, yandere-esque, and especially the swear words... not so much?

And yeah, I could make arguments about how hiding their face paints a very shy and quiet image. But I’m not going to grasp at straws from still images. I’m going to use dialogue very few ‘Chara is evil’ believers are willing to argue DIDN’T come from them.

In No Mercy, which is the one route basically everyone agrees they narrate, they’re direct and to the point and usually distant and unemotional. They’re not yelling that you’re a fucking donkey for believing you’re above consequences and can take back control, or heartlessly ripping into the monsters for being so foolishly naive and weak, or gloating over their victory. They calmly explain who and what they are, and what they want. The few times they do insult you, they use sophisticated words like ‘perverse sentimentality’. When they dismiss the monsters they’ve met until now, they don’t go out of their way to be really cruel and insulting. They remain direct and to the point, and are usually cold and harsh statements of fact.

Toriel’s check in No Mercy is ‘Not worth talking to.’ They’re not wrong. In every other route, talking does nothing, only persistently sparing her lets you make progress.

Papyrus gets ‘Forgettable’. Again, they’re not wrong. Very few monsters really take notice of him, most only remembering him in relation to other people. As ‘Sans’ brother’ or ‘Undyne’s trainee’.

Monster Kid is just ‘in my way’. Cruel, but objectively not wrong. It’s less of a ponted insult, and more how little they think of them.

For Undyne, the narrator isn’t even particularly cold or disrespectful. In two out of three possible flavor texts, they refer to Undyne as ‘the heroine’. Quite a compliment, and one that isn’t wrong, considering how she’s standing up to a mass murderer and protects Monster Kid.

Mettaton, in No Mercy, gets similarly positive or neutral remarks. ‘Dr Alphys’ greatest invention’ and ‘Mettaton NEO blocks your way’. He sure is blocking your way. And most of the Underground sure does know him as Dr Alphys’ greatest invention. I guess it could be read as sarcastic, but with the tone of all these other bits of flavor text, it feels more like a neutral statement...?

And of course. Sans. He probably has the absolute biggest variety of No Mercy flavor text. ‘The easiest enemy’ could be read as insulting, but this is corrected to a more objective statement of encouragement. ‘He can’t keep dodging forever. Just keep attacking.’ Other bits of flavor text are objective assessments of how tired Sans is, how YOU feel, and how dwelling on the flavor text isn’t a great use of time. At no point do they call him smiley trashbag, that comedian, or...anything really insulting.

At no point do they call ANYONE anything especially insulting. They’re not like Flowey, calling everyone idiots. If anything, a villainous and murderous Chara comes off as more cold and distant. Even the Save Points don’t tell you ‘5 more idiot babies to slaughter’ or specifically demand that you finish everyone off before moving on. Until you reach Sans, Chara makes no effort to discourage or persuade you. They just state objectively ‘x left’ or ‘but nobody came’.

They just... don’t care. They don’t care about any of these people anymore, not even enough to waste energy on insulting them. All they care about is reaching ‘the end’. (Or one could argue they’re at least trying to act like they don’t care.)

Chara states that they were confused upon awakening and chose to follow your lead. Personally I’m inclined to believe that they’re not lying. They choose to follow our orders to the utmost, even when they do not understand those orders, even when those orders lead them to the edge of annihilation.

On a final note. It’s kinda sad how Chara’s systematic completionist mentality is cold and horrifying in No Mercy... but in the Winter Alarm Clock dialogue, it’s a funny anecdote of a more lighthearted time which both Asgore and Toriel remember fondly, and a behavior Asriel still continues to emulate even after he stops idolizing Chara.

Any trait, when taken to the extreme, can become nightmarish.

#undertale #undertale meta #undertale analysis #chara #chara dreemurr #undertale no mercy #no mercy

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