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noonaishere · 7 months

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All of the Times Ateez Has Been Plagiarized (That I Know Of, So Far)

For legal purposes, these are all allegations.

So, I’m making this little essay/list/thing partly for myself (because I know *I* keep forgetting all of these instances) and partly because I always see incomplete lists going around and it annoys me a little that some of the people on this list seem to have been forgotten for whatever reason. Also, a lot of lists I’ve seen aren’t in chronological order? Which I just find odd. I’m going to try and include as many links as I can to articles, videos, etc, and I’ll be including pictures from them here, just to make it easier for you lovely readers.

(Also, if you think I'me being biased towards koreaboo articles, it's only because they embedded the tweets they used correctly, so they actually click through. Other sites I looked at, either the tweets show an error, or they're static images of low quality.)

Here's the incomplete article that inspired this.

So here is the list of:

All of the Times Ateez Has Been Plagiarized (That I Know Of, So Far)

---2020

MONOPOLY, HOLY MOLY – 2020 (Sept)

I can’t find anything about this artist, it seems to be only one person so maybe they’re just releasing it for fun? They plagiarized Treasure: Epilogue Action To Answer (and not even well, if you look at the shape of the black bar closely).

They did end up apologizing and changing the cover to something else, so at least they have more integrity than some of the other people on this list.

---2021

Ammonit, Reverse – 2021 (Oct)

Another small artist or group, Ammonit plagiarized the style of the Fever series album covers. Like Monopoly, Ammonit also changed their cover later. Though I haven’t seen whether or not they issued an apology, at least they changed it.

TRINITY, Life Ain’t Over – 2021 (Dec)

For their 2021 release of *Life Ain’t Over* Thai three-member group TRINITY copied Ateez’s Deja Vu photoshoot (the one member even having the same shirt as wooyoung), and their Fireworks mv. I’m actually not sure if they had ever acknowledged that they were being accused of plagiarism or not or apologized when I tried searching. (I thought someone had made a video comparing the two, but I can’t seem to find it.)

Now we get into Ateez’s worst year for plagiarism (so far)...

---2022

Soyeon, Sun – 2022 (Feb)

This is probably one of the biggest ones to happen, I won’t lie. I remember the indignation of Atiny, the disappointment of (G)-IDLE fans, and general disappointment and confusion by Knets.

This was the finale of the survival show My Teenage Girl, and the song in the video, Sun, was written for the contestants by (G)-IDLE member, Soyeon. The chorus sounds like a pitched up version of the chorus from Ateez’s Wave.

Sportskeeda article

Koreaboo article

At first people wondered if it was maybe a sample, but it wasn’t. To sum up the initial discussion:

Then on Feb 28th it got weird, because suddenly EDEN-ary (Ateez’s production team) had a credit on the song on Bugs (though this wasn’t changed on other platforms).

Also on the 28th, KQ issued a statement after receiving reports from fans about the similarity:

“On the 27th, the Challenge Team’s stage, called ‘SUN’, was broadcast for the first round of the FINALs on My Teenage Girl. Afterward, we received multiple reports through the company’s official channel and mails from webmasters that the song’s chorus melody was similar to ATEEZ’s ‘WAVE’, which was released in 2019. As the company was monitoring the related issue, they discovered that the company’s producing team, Eden-ary, was listed in the credits for ‘SUN.’ We want to clarify that we did not have any discussions before with the company or Eden-ary. In hopes of respecting creators and their unique works and in hopes that any misinformation can be corrected, we ask everyone to refrain from making unreasonable assumptions regarding the issue. Thank you.”

So they did not have discussions with CUBE about the use of Wave prior to the premier of Sun on MBC.

CUBE then released a statement:

“Hello, this is CUBE Entertainment. We would like to explain what happened on MBC’s My Teenage Girl regarding the song ‘SUN’ and (G)I-DLE’s Soyeon. First, we sincerely apologize for the concerns caused by the production of the song ‘SUN.’ Following the broadcast, through monitoring the episode, we recognized some of the similarities in the two melodies. Our artist immediately reached out to the original composer to explain the situation and apologize. In this process, especially since we admitted the similarities, we decided the song credits should be edited and properly given to the original composer. Soyeon discussed this option with the original composer and we asked the producers of the show to implement the credit change.”

So their statement seems to be that they realized the similarities after, and that Soyeon contacted EDEN-ary and then added them to the song credits. Their statement continues:

“An hour before the song’s release, however, the original composer’s agency declined our suggestion to be credited. We asked the producers of the show to undo the credit change but the change could not be applied and the song became released as-is.”

So, an hour before the show aired, they called up KQ, KQ declined a song credit (I would guess because it sort of made it look like a collaboration and let CUBE/Soyeon off the hook for plagiarism), and it was too late to change it.

Soyeon’s statement is a little different:

“After the episode aired, I thought I should apologize to the original composer for some of the similarities that have been suggested. So I got in touch with the original composer, explained what happened, and apologized for it.”

In that, in her recounting of events, her apology took place *after* the show aired.

Koreaboo article

As one person observed:

So yeah, kind of a Grade-A Mess.

After everything died down, CUBE registered the song copyright and it seemed like comments regarding the controversy were disappearing? No clue what that’s about.

Koreaboo article

NMIXX, OO – 2022 (Feb)

Welcome to: A Bigger Mess.

Koreaboo article

Someone at JYP is a BIG Ateez fan, I think. There are similarities between the look of their mvs (NMIXX even having some locations be the same as Ateez’s mvs), but there’s similarities with lyrics, graphic design choices, and lore. Basically, the only thing that isn’t similar is their sound.

The studio DIGIPEDI has worked with Ateez before and worked on NMIXX’s O.O video, but Illusion (the mv that NMIXX’s debut seems to mirror most strongly) is not one that DIGIPEDI worked on.

Now, while it’s not as if another group can’t have a pirate ship, can’t have a dreamy landscape - in fact, the group Treasure has a flying ship and a dreamy landscape in some of their mvs - but, as someone observed:

(I apologize for having to screencap a tweet from an article, but Mr. Muskrat has made his website so unusable that I can’t even find the original tweet.)

Even if the production team at JYP somehow happened on the same concept and look that Ateez has used for years, it would still be on them to realize, “Oops, this is too similar, we need to change something before people think we’re copying,” and then change the things that were too similar so they didn’t look like they had no ideas. Marketing research is a thing that companies that make stuff (even music) do as a prelude to starting a project, so I don't understand why it seems like JYP's team didn't do any.

Like, Charles Dickens had books where people were arrested for stealing bread, Les Miserables has a main character arrested for stealing bread, the Disney movie Aladdin has a character almost arrested for stealing bread; having the action “someone stealing bread” doesn’t mean that all of those creators have stolen the idea from each other, the idea exists as an idea a lot of people have. Just like flying ships and flying whales (Gojira, anybody?) and pirates and dreamlands aren’t owned by anybody - not even Ateez - it’s when you use all the ideas someone else has already used, and you use them in a way that looks JUST like the person or people you got the ideas from that it starts to become a problem. You can take inspiration from someone or something else, but you can’t just take That Thing and make it “2 inches to the left,” you know? For instance, I might read Lord of the Rings and want to write a book with elves and dwarves and a terrifyingly evil bad guy with a ring - those are all things in other stories that no one owns - but I CAN’T write a story where a group of people take a ring once owned by a terrifyingly evil bad guy and bring it to a volcano to throw it in, I have to write a different story where the ring does something else and the elves and dwarves maybe won’t even work together and there’s a different type of battle, and the bad guy looks a different way and maybe isn’t even a guy, and the world doesn’t look like Middle Earth-- and definitely I can’t use hobbits because they’re legally owned by the Tolkien estate because they were his original idea (that’s why they’re called “halflings” in DND, because of legal reasons.)

Anyway, back to normalcy. Please direct your attention to the lyrics portion of this video:

There’s a lot of similarities with their lyrics as well, so I don’t think NMIXX’s look kind of being “Ateez but 2 inches to the left” is as coincidental as some people wanted others to believe.

(PS: this is not me hating on the girls in NMIXX at all, they seem talented and nice. This is about one of the Big Three companies having a production team that doesn't need to copy others but seem to have done so anyway. But, since their look and even their sound seems to have changed a whole hell of a lot since debut, it seems like JYP has sort of abandoned NMIXX’s look at debut?)

Eltee Skhillz, Odg – 2022 (Mar)

(Sorry for the quality.)

I don’t even have to say anything, the evidence is right there.

youtube

I think I have a moral obligation to make the joke, “His name is Eltee Skhillz [elite skills], but the only thing he’s skilled at is not having his own ideas.” (I think I’m allowed to be salty, he really went frame by frame as he copied.)

Eltee Skhillz (or someone in his team) put in the youtube description of the mv, “Partly inspired by ATEEZ "The Real" and "Say my name" music video”. Please see my earlier tangent about how inspiration and copying are not the same.

Vata, New Thing choreo – 2022 (Oct)

This accusation was about a point of choreography. On the dance competition show Street Man Fighter, We Dem Boyz leader Vata performed a dance move that looked pretty similar to Atinys:

This is straight up the Driving move from Ateez’s first comeback, Say My Name. It’s in between a “starting a bike” move and a “getting off a bike move”, but the move in between is the SMN Driving move.

Interestingly enough, there’s a moment in Street Man Fighter where We Dem Boyz is unhappy that it seems that another group has copied their choreography, and they say, “They copied about four counts,” of the choreo, from 1:48 - 1:54:

youtube

I WISH I could find this other video, where they were in the middle of a dance battle on the show, and Vata copied another groups move. The other group got annoyed and started arguing and Vata and his group said, “If it’s three beats, we’ll consider it copied.” Meaning: if someone does 1 oe 2 beats of someone else's move, it's not copied, but 3 or more beats is. I just found that so funny because Vata insists he didn’t copy the SMN move, but it’s 3 or 4 beats, both of which match with WDB's (conflicting) arguments for why they didn't copy other teams during Street Man Fighter.

(If anyone finds that clip, please let me know. I saw it around the time everything was happening but I can’t find it now. It was sort of dark and the two groups were in kind of a tight ring as the members of each were dance battling and the camera angle was from higher up.)

During the show the groups were allowed to “vandalize” each other’s rooms earlier in the season, and other groups wrote some interesting things on We Dem Boyz flag:

From this Koreaboo article:

(Written on the paper) “Melvin copycat ㅋㅋㅋ” and “JBLAZE copycat” (the comment circled with the hearts) “JBLAZE copycat” “This is SMF but they said they’re going to do Street Boy Fighter after!!” “Tristan copycat” “We Dem Kid” “Some people might think you made Fear of God” “Some people might think you also made Essentials” “If you mess with us” (knife) “You need to practice dancing. ‘You should dance the same dance at least, you guys are a team'” “Vata [cut off] Melvin copycat”

JBLAZE (along with Anze Skrube and Josh Smith) are the choreographers who created the dance for Say My Name (Anze credited Josh with creating the Drive move). Coincidentally, Melvin Timtim is another choreographer who also worked with Ateez, so that’s kind of interesting that the other groups accused WDB of copying him as well. It seems as if Vata has a well known history (in the dance community) of copying other choreographers.

Anze Skrube took to Instagram to reblog some posts regarding the situation (there was more than just this, he was popping off for days) and talked about it on his Stories:

(“I thought you are a friend of San” is in reference to San and Vata having done a challenge together a few weeks before and KQ uploading it to social media.)

Allkpop article

Mnet also coddled Vata, not taking a stance, but saying "We are in the midst of arranging a position while respecting the situation of the artist (Vata) as much as possible." Which fans HATED, because - if anyone needs to be respected here - it’s the people who were stolen from, not the one doing the stealing. (What the *fuck* Mnet? Why are you like this? This is why kpop fans use a snake emoji when they talk about you and how shady you are.)

Koreaboo article

Vata made an apology:

“This is Vata. I thought this would be a cold wind that would breeze by, but I am writing this to stop the misunderstandings. When I first heard the song, I thought of the wilderness and so I made the intro of riding a horse or motorcycle. That’s why in the beginning, there is a motion of kicking to start the engine and a motion of getting off the bike. These are parts of one move that transition from one to the other. I think the choreography its being compared to has a different transition and means something different entirely. As someone who loves the dance culture, I believe it is at its best when the artist and dancer respect one another. It saddens me to see that this isn’t taking place. Regardless of the reason, I apologize to viewers of Street Man Fighter and to those who root for We Dem Boyz for any controversy that had occurred on my behalf. I will repay you by putting on a better stage.”

Koreaboo article

I just have to say: this really reads like one of those youtube apologies, where the youtuber deflects and doesn’t want to be held accountable for their actions. He also seems to say that Wooyoung and Anze are being disrespectful by calling him out. (And he even said "I was hoping this would blow over" I don't think you're supposed to say that in your "apology" even if you were thinking it, homes."

Because, PS!: Wooyoung called him out with the “biting” motion during a stage at Kcom Saudi Arabia:

And here are some other shorts that have clips from Anze and his IG:

Short 1

Short 2

While everyone was doing WDB's dance on tiktok, San did the LAW challenge instead (which I feel is a better song anyway, but that's just me) and it seemed that, aside from Wooyoung's call out, and San's snub, KQ was not commenting on it.

Atiny, meanwhile, streamed Say My Name and made art about respecting artists (what Vata had NOT done to Ateez). There were hashtags and SMN challenges and tweets galore:

The thing that made this whole incident REALLY strange, is that the dance Vata had plagiarized the Drive move for was for the kpop artist Zico… who is managed under KQ. So, when the music video for Zico’s song, New Thing, came out, it lacked the drive move at the beginning:

Dance Performance video

So all the people trying to say that it wasn’t copied or tried to defend Vata (I saw someone say they would defend him because he’s more famous than Ateez… please lick boots somewhere else) didn’t matter because… Zico and KQ thought it was too similar to let it slide.

(Oh! Also, Carats, EXO-Ls, Shawols, Ahgases, Monbebes, ARMYs, ELFs, and Inspirits were spotting tweeting on Atinys’ behalf, so I would like to personally thank our friends who stan other groups for their help and support. The kpop world needs some love more often than not, because we are not each other’s enemy… capitalism is our enemy.)

(Love you, bbys 💖💖💖)

---2023

Super Dragon, Revolution – 2023 (Feb)

I hate trying to look this group up because the SEO for their name is GOD awful. Like you could not pick two more common words to name something. It’s also the name of several restaurants, the co-creator of a California wrestling promotion, and - of course - part of a title for a Dragon Ball series.

Maybe that’s why this is probably the incident I see the least. Maybe it just gets lost in the SEO sauce and no one even sees it so it’s just flying under the radar? Which is weird, because it’s like a combination of the TRINITY incident and the incident that will come next. A Frankensteinian amalgamation of a lack of imagination, if you will.

But oh, oho! I have twitter-- I don’t have twitter, I have *a friend who has twitter,* and she messaged me very early in the morning on February 21st to send me a bunch of tweets of this band:

It’s the sound of Wonderland and the look of Fireworks.

The two songs played at the same time:

The thing that - I don’t know if I find it the funniest or if I hate it the most - but the thing is… there’s such a *severe* LACK of imagination. I’m inspired by things all the time, people, places, things, any kind of nouns, inspire me… but like I said earlier, there’s a difference between writing a story with elves and dwarves and just rewriting Lord of the Rings and pretending it’s your own. And this is just a poor man’s version of Wonderland.

3WICH, Kicking Your Face – 2023 (Sept)

On the Taiwanese music competition show, Music Maker, group 3WICH had a song that didn’t just seem similar to Ateez’s Guerrilla, but seemed to be almost a carbon copy:

If you listen to the whole song, it’s literally just been skinned so they could put new lyrics. Originally, 3WICH and their composer, Jhen F, did a livestream where they denied there was any plagiarism, and at first the song had been left up pending investigation, but was soon taken down until the copyright issues could be clarified. The president of the TV station that ran Music Maker, Huang Liang-hsun, made a statement:

(translated by @ananmiyabi630 on twitter (I think))

Koreaboo article

This story is still developing as I write this, but it seems to have affected the president of the TV channel Music Maker is on a lot:

If he goes, I hope he has fun. 3WICH and Jhen F can sit in the parking lot and think about what they did while they listen to the stadium scream “Break the WALLLL!” at the end of the concert.

------

So yeah, those are All of the Times Ateez Has Been Plagiarized (That I Know Of, So Far). I hope you enjoyed all of this mess, and maybe people won’t try to plagiarize them so much, now that they’re a bigger group and it’s more apparent that people are paying attention to them.

Idk.

Probably not.

I’ll update if I see any new ones in the future.

#ateez #plagiarism #thank you for coming to my ted talk #I was thinking of making this multiple posts #but I think one is enough lol #so sorry that it's a bit long #I got tired of forgetting things on the list so I made it so I can see it and others can if they're looking #I literally never see the Super Dragon one and it's like the worst one #like did their producers think that combining the music of one song with the mv of another would stop people from thinking they copied?#please have your own ideas #and thank you to my friend for being my twitter liaison lol

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starry-bi-sky · 6 months

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I saw a post a few months ago (and damn was it really months? In PLURAL?) that was a cracky dpxdc au where the LOS were making Damian clones but the clones kept getting snatched by ghost portals and dropped into Danny’s lap and Danny just goes “ok ig this is my life now” and takes care of each one until he has his own mini army of Damian Clones.

And I remembered it a few days ago, and now I've been thinking about it again. Because I love clone aus (see: clone danny au, the 'danny is thomas wayne' au) because it itches the part of my mind that loves exploring personhood and the exploration of identity and what it means to be clone.

(What do you do when nothing about you is unique? When your face, your eyes, your hands, your hair, your voice, all the way down to your heart, all belong to someone else?)

(When it comes to nature vs nurture what of you came from your environment and your experiences, and what of you was already programmed into you from the DNA that made you?)

(What do you do to make it unique? What do you do to make you unique?)

And if I could remember who made that post I'd @ them right now because it was their original post that inspired this, but I'm just thinking of if the au only had One Singular Damian clone that fell into Danny's life.

(a read more because im apparently incapable of making posts that are less than 1k words...)

One Damian who knew he was a clone and knew that he was to either bring the original back to base or kill him to take his place, who was being trained the same way but kept getting compared to his original over and over again. Like an older sibling who you can never match up to. Who is still a child who craves adult affection and validation and praise, and can't get it because nothing about him is original.

One Damian who, at six years old, in a twist of fate is sucked through a swirling portal and lands in Amity Park, directly on top of, in front of, or in line of sight of one Daniel Fenton, half-ghost extraordinaire and local hero.

What happens next?

Well, for one, Danny recognizes him immediately. He would recognize the face of Damian Wayne anywhere because his best friend was ranting about him all week about Damian Wayne's environmental stuff he does.

And for two, he would recognize that the Damian Wayne in front of him was not Damian Wayne. Because Damian Wayne was a teenager. And the Damian Wayne in front of him is a child. Six years old.

Getting this not-Damian but also-Damian to go along with Danny is not, not an easy task. The tiny Damian is aggressive, regal, and at this point in time, six years old, barely understanding english. He also has a sword.

It takes all day and a google translator to get this Tiny Damian to finally agree to go home with Danny. It's a miracle. Seriously. A tried and true miracle. And its also only when Danny has to fight a ghost does he finally agree, saying something in arabic that Danny doesn't understand.

Danny flies them both home, carrying Tiny Damian like a koala. The ensuing conversation in his room is not any better. It is tiring, long, and exhausting. Tiny Damian is six years old, and every single thing he says when Danny asks where he came from is met with a poorly translated "that's classified".

Danny keeps an eye on the news. There are no reports of Damian Wayne going missing, in fact he's been rather public. Bruce Wayne is not one to lie about his children going missing, and Damian's secretive behavior and young age draws Danny to one conclusion: Damian is a clone.

He doesn't know why Damian Wayne is being cloned. Frankly he doesn't really wanna know, because whatever organization that did it doesn't seem too pure-of-heart if tiny-Damian's immediate attempt of murder when they first met is of any indication. But he's too busy taking care of his city, that he doesn't have time to deal with whatever shady business Tiny-Damian was produced from.

In the end though, he decides that this Tiny-Damian is not going back to whatever place he came from. Tiny Damian disagrees. It is a long, nebulous problem of Damian trying to run away, Danny catching him, and Danny pulling him back home.

In that time, Danny downloads a language app and starts learning Arabic so that they can talk to each other properly. Damian slowly, slowly, starts picking up English.

In that time, Danny also has to inform his friends and his sister about Damian. Tiny Damian is not a fan of this. That is another argument they have. Tiny Damian does not like Sam or Tucker for a long, long while. He only really "listens" to Danny, citing something in arabic that Danny still cannot understand, but has a repeated use of the word "lieazir". It's the only word that Danny can catch in a sentence immediately, because its what little Damian calls Danny.

Tiny Damian, in that front, is very interested in Danny's powers and in his parents work. He finds tubberware of ectoplasm in the fridge once while they're down in the kitchen and calls it something with the word lieazir in it. The other word is something that Danny later learns means water in arabic.

It makes him feel even more uneasy of whatever place little Damian came from.

It takes weeks for little Damian to finally give up on escaping, and then a few weeks more for him to almost entirely lose his spunk. Danny isn't sure what started it. It was as if he'd been flipped with an off-switch.

(Damian had been so confident that the League would go looking for him after his disappearance. He was wrong, and he is crushed. He is still a child, alone, in a country very big and very busy, where nobody understands what he's saying. He feels powerless, helpless.)

(The lazarus boy who calls himself Danyal is nice to him in a way the league has never been, and he's making an effort to learn Damian's language. But he leaves for hours at a time and Damian doesn't have much else to do but wait in this house for him to come back.)

(He tried leaving, many many times, but he doesn't understand the street signs, the roads, the people. He doesn't know where he is, and he feels scared in a way that he's not felt in the League. Danny finds him every single time, hours later when Damian is lost somewhere in Amity Park)

(And he never yells at him. Never. The first time this happens, Damian puffs himself up and prepares himself for this strange lazarus boy to yell at him. Damian feels like he's tripped on the last step of the stairs when Danyal doesn't yell at him.)

(He can tell he's frustrated by the tone of his voice, but when Danyal lays eyes on him he just looks relieved. He gets scolded on the flight home, but Damian doesn't understand any of it other than Danyal just sounds worried. Not angry. He gets a proper scolding once they get back, with Danyal typing into the google translator and playing it for Damian to hear.)

(This happens every single time until Damian finally agrees to stop running away.)

It's with Jazz's help that Danny finally realizes that Damian was depressed. It's with her help again that Danny tries helping with it. It's like trying to get a stray cat to trust him. And with everything else they've done, it takes a long time.

And it is so, so worth it when it all works out.

Tiny Damian doesn't really like Sam, or Tucker, but he likes Danny. And he finally starts calling him his name. His full name, but his name nonetheless. Danny doesn't bother correcting him. He's not looking a gift horse in the mouth. And it's endearing hearing Damian call him Danyal.

Damian in this time, also begins to take more initiative into learning English. And they teach each other words they know. Danny buys flash cards and writes the english alphabet on them, and then finds a book on arabic to teach himself and Damian. Sam and Tucker and Jazz start learning as well.

And then when Danny knows enough arabic and Damian knows enough english, and Damian trusts Danny, Damian tells him he's a clone. It's a quiet moment, late at night when Danny takes Damian up to the ops center to look at what stars they could see through the light pollution.

It'd be very easy for Danny to tell him, "I know. I could tell from the start.". He doesn't, it's not the time nor the place, and Danny's matured enough to know when to open his mouth and when to keep it shut. He lets Damian, almost seven now, tell him that he's a clone of Damian Wayne. Lets him tell him why he was made, what his purpose was.

(Danny will need a minute later to process the fact that Damian Wayne originally came from some kind of... assassin league with an obsession with immortality. But he's focused on Damian.)

In the end, he puts an arm around Damian Wayne's clone and pulls him into his side. Thanks him for trusting him, it must've been hard to tell him, that he's brave for being able to. And if he wants to, they can find a way to get into contact with the Waynes and let Wayne know about him.

Damian hides his face in Danny's ribs and holds him tight, and tells him he doesn't want to. Danny leaves it at that.

Perhaps it would be more morally ethical to alert Damian Wayne that there was a clone of him running around, that his... uh, grandfather was making clones of him. Hell, Danny would have liked it. But little Damian has asked him not to say anything, and little Damian needs someone to rely on; someone he can trust.

And in the end, its not that hard of a decision to make. Danny knows little Damian more than he knows Damian Wayne, and while Danny likes to think he's a good person, he knows he's not a great one. Nor a perfect one. He cares more about someone he knows than someone he doesn't.

If Sam tries to argue with him about it, then Danny will just double down. If Damian doesn't want to tell Wayne about his existence, then it's not their place to say otherwise.

There's a lot more to talk about over Damian's cloning, like what he wants to do moving forward. But that's a long conversation not meant to be one taken late at night. Little Damian is falling asleep at his side, seemingly much more relaxed than he did before, and Danny wasn't gonna ruin that.

And later he's right, it is a long conversation, and a slow one. Talking with Jazz about it helps him figure out what to do moving forward, and their best bet is to let Damian figure out what he wants to do. So he sits Damian down at the dinner table the next morning and tells him before breakfast that he doesn't need to be Damian Wayne.

He doesn't need to learn all the same things Damian Wayne did. He doesn't need to do anything that Damian Wayne does. And little Damian is seven, and he's smart, but Danny still has to word it in a way that's not too complex for him to realize.

And in the end, what he says essentially boils down to "You are not Damian Wayne, you are just you. Don't be anyone else but you." and it'll take more time to drill that into his mind when all he's ever heard and learned from is that he was a copy of Damian Wayne, and he must act like Damian Wayne. But it'll happen.

It's a hard task when Danny's the only person Damian really trusts and he can't be by his side all the time, but he starts to warm up to the rest of Danny's family. The Fenton parents know of him, it's hard to keep a six year old child a secret for as long as Danny did without eventually having to come clean about it. His parents, much to Danny's relief, are very welcoming to Damian.

Damian figures out what he likes. Slowly. He's six years old, almost seven, and nobody expects of him to figure out who he is immediately. No child knows who they are right off the bat. So like any child he begins to explore. His english is better but still rough, and he struggles to read said language, but the Fenton family are happy to help even if Damian learns words that no normal seven year old does. (Many of them scientific.)

Damian realizes he likes stars, even if said interest is influenced by the association to Danny. Danny is all too delighted to tell him all about them, and in the process takes him flying out somewhere where the light pollution doesn't reach and showing him where constellations are.

Damian is six-almost-seven, so he doesn't find all of them, but Danny helps him figure out the easier ones. He tells him the scientific facts behind them, and then tells him about the mythos of the constellations. Later on they make their own constellations and make up stories about what they are.

(Damian adores Danny out of anyone else in the Fenton Family. The name Danyal turns to Dany. If anyone asks, Daniel Fenton is Damian's big brother.)

(He still refers to Jazz as Jazmine, and Danny's parents as Mrs. and Mr. Fenton.)

He realizes that, like his original, he loves animals, and he becomes vegetarian too. Sam is smug and Tucker is disappointed, but Damian doesn't super care about their opinions. ...he's getting better at liking them, even if he thinks Manson is a bit snobby and Foley is too much at times.

Its inevitable that the conversation of school comes into play. Damian can't stay home all day and he needs proper schooling. So after a long talk with Damian, they agree to send him to elementary school.

...And before they can do that the Fenton Family goes through with legally adopting Damian into the family as Damian Fenton. It takes convincing to get the administration to enroll him into the first grade without a proper schooling background.

(On his adoption form, Damian asks to change his birthday to the day he met Danny. Perhaps its not the most responsible thing to agree to, but Danny wants Damian to find himself. And its not like they know when his actual birthday was.)

And despite where he learned it from, Damian quite likes sparring. And he quite likes sparring with Danny in particular. Danny makes it fun, something that was foreign in his old league training, and Danny never hurts him. It's a lot like roughhousing.

Danny tells Damian how he got his powers, and how his parents don't know. Damian wakes up late at night to Danny sneaking out of the room (their house is not big enough to give Damian an individual room, and Danny agreed to share his) to go fight ghosts.

It's upsetting. Damian knows that Danny gets injured in those fights, even if Danny never comes home until after those injuries have been fixed up. He wants to help, and he voices it, and Danny shoots him down.

It becomes an argument, something that has happened less and less over the months.

Damian is experienced.

Damian is a child.

Damian knows how to fight.

Damian is mortal and fragile. He is a tiny, squishy human boy and the people Danny fights are ghosts who are near-indestructible. Who are intimately acquainted with death but also do not remember that humans are capable of it. Especially when they're fighting.

Damian says that Batman's rogues are capable of the same thing, that he lets his Robins help him fight.

And Danny says he is not Batman and he will not allow Damian to fight ghosts with him. Those ghosts will kill him and it will hurt. Dying hurts in a way that is terrifying and unimaginable and he will not risk Damian experiencing it. Not even Sam and Tucker help him in his fights most of the time, they are not able to. Not in the way Danny can.

Damian doesn't talk to him all day the following morning, but Danny does not budge on his decision. Damian tries to follow him out the next night, and Danny catches him and takes him back. Over, and over, and over again.

Until finally he gets intercepted by Skulker while taking Damian back home and is forced to fight him in front of Damian. (If it had been his choice, he would not have let Damian see it at all.)

It's not pretty. Skulker has new weapons, weapons that hurt, a lot. Danny is stuck between trying to take him down and trying to protect Damian from Skulker's attacks at him and from all the debris being created from the fight. It's with Damian's quick thinking and fast feet that finally helps Danny take Skulker out. But Danny is badly injured in the aftermath.

He doesn't have time to take Damian home and get medical attention. So he takes Damian with him to wherever he has his supplies stashed. He doesn't call Sam or Tucker or Jazz, and has to stitch himself up alone, with Damian watching.

Damian is quiet the entire time, he feels awful. Danny's not mad at him -- well, he is. But not because he had to protect him. He's just tired, and a little disappointed in him. Damian doesn't sneak out again. But he still feels helpless.

Danny tells him that that is why he doesn't want Damian to help him. Ghosts, his ghosts, are hard to fight. They are powerful, and his 'rogues' are mean. They will not care that Damian is a mortal child, if he picks a fight with them, they will fight back. And Damian is not immune to certain ghost powers like Danny is.

Damian is silent. He wants to help. But Danny is right: he is a squishy, mortal, living child. There is not much he can do to help Danny. Not without any gear to do it. Not without any powers to do it. He wants to help. He cannot.

Damian, almost-seven-years old, begins to cry. It is the last thing Danny was expecting, and for a moment he is at a loss of what to do.

Damian reaches for him -- in the Fenton family, physical affection is expected. Damian is getting used to it, but Danny is the only one he likes touching him -- and then stops, cringing away like he only just remembered that Danny was hurt.

He only cries harder.

Danny meets him halfway and pulls him into his arms, situating Damian between his knees from where he's sitting. Through his tears, Damian says he wants to help. He wants to help. He doesn't want Danny to get hurt anymore. He doesn't want Danny to fight ghosts alone anymore. He's scared that Danny will stop coming back.

Danny doesn't have anything to say to reassure him. Can't say anything to reassure him. It'll all just be lies. He's not going to stop fighting ghosts, he can't. He's not going to stop getting hurt, he can't. He's not going to bring Damian with him, he can't. He'd never be able to live with himself.

"I'll always come back." He says though, because that is something he can promise. Whether dead or alive, he'll come back.

When the tears finally stop, Damian doesn't say anything again. He sniffles, and presses his ear to Danny's chest, listening to the steady, slow heartbeat. If he puts his ear to his sternum and strains his ear, Damian would almost hear the low hum of Danny's ghost core, like a small dwarf sun.

"If you die, I'll drag you to the Lazarus pools myself." Damian mumbles eventually, his voice sleep-full. It's spoken in arabic, and Danny only understands half of it.

He laughs quietly, and smoothes his hand over Damian's hair. He hasn't had a haircut since he arrived, it's gotten long and there are curls beginning to form. "Okay."

Damian falls asleep shortly after, and with much consideration to his own injuries and Damian's sleeping form, Danny flies them back home.

It's hard to say, but not much changes in routine afterwards. Damian hovers close to Danny, more than usual. Danny still goes out at night, he still stitches himself up before going back, he still goes back home where Damian is waiting worriedly for him. Damian doesn't like falling asleep without knowing Danny is there.

Now the hard question is: when does little Damian finally meet the Waynes for the first time? There's plenty of ways to go about it, both easy and hard. Perhaps we go this way:

The Fenton family are visiting Maddie's sister in Arkansas. And Damian is dragging Danny around through the surrounding forest. It's his first time being in a forest this large since he moved in with the Fentons. Safe to say he is delighted by all of the nature, and he's dragging Danny along with him.

Danny likes the peace and quiet it gives him, he's found that he enjoys the rural area more than he likes the city. He's happy to let Damian point out every plant he recognizes, even if some of it is in arabic.

They walk around all day until Damian gets tired, and then at night when the sky is clear Danny and him go look at the stars. It's peaceful at first.

On the third day of their visit, Damian drags Danny out far from the house. It's slightly worrying, but Danny can always fly them back if it gets too late.

It's in the woods that Danny and Damian stray much too far from Alicia's house, and from there in the early evening that they run into Batman and Red Robin, both of them in rough 'just got out of a fight' shape.

Safe to say, it was the last thing any of them expected to run into. Damian and Danny had stopped at a small crik to rest, and the two vigilantes came through the tree line on the other side.

It was... quite the staring contest.

Damian, now seven years old at this point, forgot to mention that the Waynes were vigilantes when he told Danny he was a clone. But he was told that Batman was his original's father.

Before anyone can say anything, little Damian wraps his arms tight around Danny's middle and stares Batman and Red Robin down. His sharp edges have softened around the Fentons. But he makes no exceptions to anyone else outside of Danny's immediate social circle.

Danny's arm automatically goes around Damian's shoulders, and he looks between both Red and Batman uneasily. If they were here then it meant that there was something unsafe nearby. Danny did not fight the living, and he wasn't going to put Damian in the crosshairs of anything that does.

"Should... should we leave?" He asks, brows knotted together with a frown. He stands. "Is there something going on nearby?"

Batman suddenly grunts, and looks at him. "It's been handled." He says, and his voice is gruffer than Danny imagined it. Lower. Danny is not all that comfortable with that answer.

"Do you guys live nearby?" Red Robin asks, and Danny can't help but notice that he keeps looking at Damian. Warily. In fact, so is Batman.

He pushes Damian behind him slightly, and Damian's grip tightens on him. "Not... exactly." He says, his eyes narrowing slightly. "My family's visiting my Aunt and my brother wanted to explore since it's his first time out of the city, I guess we wandered too far away if we're running into you."

There's no visible indication of whether or not both Bats reacted to him calling Damian his brother. But he can all but feel little Damian preen at the title, it makes Danny's mouth twitch into a smile as his hand finds Damian's hair.

"Would we be able to go back with you?" Red Robin asks, startling both Danny and seemingly Batman, who looks at him instantly.

"Red Robin." He growls out, and Red Robin throws Batman a look of annoyance.

"We are lost, B. They jammed the comms and our trackers back there and it hasn't come back on yet, his aunt may have the signal we need to let the others know where we are."

They end up walking back with Danny and Damian. It's silent, and awkward, and Danny has Damian walking on his opposite side so he's not near the vigilantes. Red Robin is fiddling with a phone but still can't get a signal.

Batman is silently brooding.

Red eventually gives up and shoves the phone into a pocket on his belt, then turns to make conversation with Danny. "I never thanked you for letting us walk with you. Thanks, by the way."

Danny blinks at him, and smiles awkwardly. "No problem, man," he says, "I'm uh, Danny." He glances down at Damian, who looks up at him with big green eyes, and Damian nods quietly.

He looks back at Red Robin, and says, "This is my little brother, Damian." And Damian peers over his side and glares at Red Robin -- and Batman, who looks over when Danny says his name.

"He looks like Damian Wayne," Red Robin notes, head tilting like he's inspecting him.

Danny huffs dryly, "We get that a lot."

Red Robin smiles at him, its a tilted thing. It makes Danny uneasy. "Where did you say you were from?"

"I didn't," Danny says bluntly, and he really doesn't want to tell them where he's from. Not when Red Robin was acting strange, but they're vigilantes and notorious for their detective skills. If he's suspicious, they'll look into him. "But I'm from Amity Park."

Damian in that moment, peers around Danny again and scowls at Red Robin. Full on scowls at him, as if it were the first months when he met Danny. "You're being nosy." He sneers, his hand squeezing Danny's.

"Damian," Danny hisses, suppressing a smile. Damian jumps like he's been startled, and looks up at him with big green eyes. "He's just being curious."

(He lets his smile slip through briefly, just to let Damian know he's not that upset. A tension leaves his little brother's shoulders.)

"But he is." Damian continues, a whine leaking into his voice. Danny jabs him in the ribs with his fingers, and Damian jumps, swatting away his hand with a squeak.

"Would you rather have us walk in dead silence, Dames?" He goes for Damian's ribs again, a grin stretching across his face as Damian jumps back again and swats his hand. "Hm? Hm? We could just walk in awkward silence for the entire trip back, I know you just love awkward silence, little brother."

(It's funny, saying little brother always sounds so uncomfortable when he reads it in books and watches it on tv. But Jazz always makes it sound so natural when she does it, and Danny finds that he sounds the same too.)

Damian continues to bat away his hands, but it's not enough to prevent him from squealing with laughter when Danny gets a good hold on him and starts tickling him. Danny's grin only gets bigger, and he swoops Damian up with his arm and holds him like a football.

"Is that it? Huh? Me, you, and two vigilantes walking back to Aunt Alicia's cabin in complete, utter silence." He says, "You won't get to hear any of my amazing jokes."

Damian's wriggling, trying to pound on Danny's ribs, he's giggling uncontrollably. It's the best sound Danny's ever heard. "Your jokes are awful! Laeazir! Put me down!" He cries, grinning from ear to ear.

(From the side, both Red Robin and Batman tense up.)

Danny chuckles, and through a short series of flips, has Damian sitting on his shoulders. "I will not. You're sitting up in air jail for insulting my hilarious jokes."

Damian tugs on his hair in revenge, harrumphing at him but making no move to get down. Danny squeezes his ankles playfully, and looks back to Batman and Red Robin.

Both vigilantes look at him like he's grown a second head.

....Red Robin looks at him like he's grown a second head. Batman just stares, and then looks away. Danny tilts his head at them, his smile waning. "You guys look like you've seen a ghost or something."

(Damian tugs on his hair again. A silent boo at him.)

Red Robin jerks, "Oh, sorry." He says, not sounding all that sorry. "It's just... I've lost count to how many times I've saved Damian Wayne from the occasional kidnapping and he's always been very... serious. It's just weird seeing a kid that looks like him be... not serious."

From his shoulders he feels Damian hide his smile in his hair, that's another thing they can put on their "Things That Damian Does That Damian Wayne Does Not" list. It started as a joke, but it's been surprisingly helpful for when Damian is questioning himself.

However, Danny is not a fan of the comparison, and he smiles widely, perhaps a tad passive-aggressive. "It's a good thing that my Damian isn't Damian Wayne then." He says, giving him the slight stink eye.

Red Robin picks up on it quickly, and nods.

The rest of the way is spent in idle conversation. It's oddly casual, even if most of the conversation is Danny talking about himself. It's annoying, but he unfortunately understands the reason. Secret identities and all that.

Damian interjects a few times, some parts to talk to Danny, and other parts to throw shade at Batman and Red Robin. Mostly Red Robin, who seems begrudgingly used to it.

("I'm surprised you haven't asked me much about myself." Red Robin says at one point into the conversation. Over his shoulder Batman glares at Red Robin. "A lot of civilians do when they're able."

Danny stares at him. "You're a vigilante." He says, frowning, "Isn't it superhero 101 that you don't ask superheroes for their secret identity?"

"You'd be surprised."

"Huh. Well, no. I'm not gonna ask you about yourself. I quite like talking all about me.")

When they finally reach the cabin, it's late into the night and Danny has moved Damian from his shoulders to his front in a koala-like carry. Damian's fast asleep with his head on Danny's shoulder.

His family was also frantically searching for him, and Jazz sees him first. She immediately turns behind her and yells "I FOUND HIM!". And then sprints over to him, his parents thundering not too far behind.

Both vigilantes are subsequently ignored as Jazz dotes over him and Danny, and soon enough so is his mom and dad. They're all talking all at once, asking him where he was, they were worried sick, did he know how late it was.

He shushes all of them, loudly. And whispers that Damian is sleeping. His family then immediately quiet themselves, and go back to yelling at him in a more appropriate manner.

"Me and Damian walked too far by accident." Danny finally says when he can get a word in, and then he jabs his thumb in Red Robin and Batman's direction. "We also found two superheroes who need assistance."

The speed of which his family all snap their heads over to the direction he's pointing is almost comical. As is all of their expressions of shock.

His mother is the first to regain her senses, and she sighs at him. She sighs! "Only you, Danny." She says, and Jazz snorts into her arm.