Thinking about how, at the end of the day, at the fatal moment, the sunset of the Republic, it wasn’t Yoda, or Obi-Wan, or even the Chosen One himself standing in the way of Palpatine. It was Mace Windu.

Mace Windu, the inventor of Vaapad and Master of Form VII, the Jedi's strongest duelist, the only person to ever defeat Palpatine in combat. Mace Windu, Master of the Jedi Council and the youngest Master ever appointed to it, the revered leader of the Order. Mace Windu, who forgave even those who tried to kill him, who risked his life over and over again for his troops, who, after 3 years of desperate war, tried to negotiate with battle droids. Mace Windu, who knew the clones were created by the Sith and chose to trust them, who saw every Shatterpoint in the Republic, and loved it still, and fought for it until his last breath, until he was betrayed by Anakin, who he believed in and trusted despite everything.

Mace Windu, High General and hero of the Republic, the embodiment of the Light, the last and greatest champion of the Order, the best Jedi to ever live.

why do so many people hate on Mace Windu?

'Cause he's too much of a badass for them to handle! Jokes aside, this is a subject I came across a few times. If I had to guess why?

1. "Mace was a jerk to Anakin!"

A lot of people see Mace as "always being antagonistic towards Anakin". When - if you look at the facts - that's not really true.

In Episode I, sure, Mace initially votes to not let Anakin into the Jedi Order. But shortly after, when it's put to a vote a second time, Yoda is the only one still not wanting Anakin to join.

Implying... that Mace was cool with it!

Hell, there's even a non-canon comic that covered this, with Windu actually arguing letting Anakin into the Jedi Order against Yoda because he thinks Anakin will bring Balance to the Force.

In the comic, he also suggests giving Qui-Gon’s lightsaber to Anakin.

In Episode II, he's actually defending Anakin. He and the Council are confident in Anakin's ability to have his first solo mission, praising Anakin's skills and - in a deleted scene - even reminding Obi-Wan to have more faith in his Padawan.

Finally, in Episode III, at a first glance, it looks like Mace is indeed written in a way that makes him antagonistic to Anakin (the same Anakin who turns to the Dark Side in the same film, so maybe his instincts weren't so off after all...)

A lot of people say "he says he doesn't trust Anakin!" and I've already covered what that's really about here:

TLDR: he says he doesn't trust Anakin when he's 1) on a secret mission 2) with Palpatine. Which makes sense, because Anakin isn't exactly subtle and he has an emotional attachment toward Palpatine who everyone can see has Anakin wrapped around his finger.

Also, if you wanna count it... the novelization of Revenge of the Sith justifies this by the unbearable stress he is under.

A stress due to the Clone War and his whole Order being drafted into being warriors when they're supposed to be diplomats, thus causing hundred if not friends of his comrades to die (and don't even get me started on how hard the loss of clone lives must weigh on him).

Jedi of the Republic: Mace Windu writer Matt Owens seems to echo this sentiment:

"The Jedi are like atomic bombs: they have so much power, but they really don’t want to use it. Mace is a masterful warrior who doesn’t relish fighting. Such use of his power goes against his code, but if he doesn’t use it, what will become of the Republic? As a member of the Jedi Council, he is under pressure because he is a leader. He’s forced into an uncomfortable situation where he is doing something he doesn’t entirely agree with for what he believes is ultimately the greater good. But he has to be sure of himself because he has so many others looking to him for direction." - Matt Owens, Star Wars Insider Special Edition, 2021

So it's not personal toward Anakin at all, but Anakin's whining and making it all about himself certainly isn't relieving the stress.

But hey, let's suppose he is a dick to Anakin in Episode III (he's not, but let's go along with it).

That's still one movie out of three. So if there's a change in attitude toward Anakin from Attack of the Clones to Revenge of the Sith...

... what spurred it?

What event would make Mace go from telling Obi-Wan to have faith in Anakin to having him be adversarial toward him?

It would've been nice to see that in an episode from The Clone Wars, which partially exists to fill in the gaps between AOTC and ROTS.

I mean, was there a time where, for example, Anakin prioritized saving Ahsoka over a bunch of people in a building, leaving Mace to do it himself?

Still, we get moments between them, and they're not all negative:

They have fun banter, at times, right? But then we hear Dave Filoni say that Mace had an issue with Anakin from day one.

"You see, Mace Windu’s the guy that tells little Anakin ‘no, he will not be trained’. You cut to Anakin and he’s like, ‘What??’ There’s this look on Anakin’s face like, 'I’m gonna remember that, you’re a negative, why are you doing that?’ So you have to look at it, the Jedi are - though they mean really well for Anakin – they’re always telling him 'no’. They’re always saying 'no, you’ll be expelled, you’ll have to leave the Jedi Order’. [...] So when you get to that point-- all these things I’m talking about get you to that point where Palpatine’s on the ground and Mace Windu has a lightsaber at his throat and he’s saying “he’s the traitor”. So Anakin’s there and he’s choosing between the guy that’s always told him “no” - that, while he respects him and [Mace’s] not a mentor, but he’s a fellow Jedi - and the father figure [of Palpatine] who holds the key possibly to immortality and you saving this person you love in Padmé." - Dave Filoni, Rebel Force Radio, Star Wars Fan Days III, 2009

So... I honestly don't know who to listen to.

If we're meant to see Mace as "negative toward Anakin" then the episodes failed to convey that properly.

If we're not, then why is Dave Filoni saying the above?

Same thing goes for the recently-published novel Brotherhood, written by Mike Chen.

Like, I want to give the novel the benefit of the doubt and say "yeah, but we're only seeing Mace through Anakin's eyes, so of course the opinion is biased and exaggerated." But then I hear Mike Chen say stuff like this...

"And, like, [Anakin’s] constantly pulled in every direction and the finally, when you go from that to Revenge of the Sith where it’s like “hey, my wife is going to die unless I listen to my cool uncle, who has never been mean to me” and then you have Mace Windu who’s like “TAKE A SEAT, SKYWALKER!” y’know, it’s like who’re you gonna listen to? It really makes sense, it feels very organic, from that perspective." - Mike Chen, Beyond the Blast Doors, 2021

... and it's clear my arguing "unreliable narration" would just be me expressing a headcanon.

2. "Mace represents everything wrong with the Jedi"

Then, another argument I heard once is that he embodies everything wrong with the Jedi Order. As said in this comment here:

Wow, that's a whole bunch of hate hurled in Mace's direction.

Also inaccurate.

The fact is, Mace is - like most Jedi - a space shaolin/buddhist monk. He's incredibly wise and spiritual as heck. But when it comes to it, he's a no-bullshit kind of guy, especially when considering the Jedi being forced into a war.

As Samuel L. Jackson put its:

"Mace is a voice of reason. He thinks before he speaks. He's pretty calculating, mostly even-tempered, and he's not to be trifled with. He knows that the war is coming and he has a pretty good idea who is behind it. [...] Mace Windu has known Obi-Wan Kenobi for a very long time. Mace was a contemporary of Qui-Gon Jinn. He understood his faults and admired his qualities and can see that Obi-Wan has taken on some of Qui-Gon's strongheadedness by wanting to train Anakin Skywalker." - Samuel L. Jackson, as reported in Star Wars Insider: The Skywalker Saga Collector’s Edition, 2021

That doesn't mean Mace isn't compassionate or empathetic. On the contrary:

Here’s Mace taking down a criminal who was using child soldiers.

See that teenager who shoots at him in the final panels? At the end of the comic, he tries to have her freed.

Then, here’s Mace going out of his way to save a Twi'lek girl.

And this post, right here, lists a ton of examples of Mace putting others before himself in The Clone Wars.

Oh, you wanna go Legends? Let's go Legends.

Here’s Mace before and after saving an old lady from thugs.

Here’s Mace being kind to a starving Sith worshipper who tried to start a mob to kill them, choosing talk and mercy over violence.

Here's Mace praising Anakin!

One time, Obi-Wan almost died on a mission. Mace stayed by Anakin's side the whole time Obi-Wan was undergoing surgery.

Here’s Mace calmly agreeing to disagree with a Jedi who thinks the Order shouldn’t have joined the Clone War.

Hell, here’s Mace being nice to animals.

Mace Windu embodies everything right about the Jedi Order.

3. Misc "arguments"...

A number of silly, small things I hear sometimes:

"Oh he called her 'citizen' what an asshole!" He refers to her the same way she referred to herself. Ahsoka's been gone for months she doesn't have context and letting her into the fold in that particular instant would spell disaster. It's not personal, Mace even gives her a respectful nod before the call ends.

Then there's:

"Mace never apologized for the way the Council treated Ahsoka!" Because Plo Koon apologized on behalf of the whole Council.

“You have OUR most humble Ahsoka.” Plural. He’s speaking for all of them, nobody contradicts him, thus showing they agree. It’s a 22-minute TCW episode, they’re not gonna have each Council member apologize individually. It’s common sense. I'd also hazard that the "this was your real trial" line lingered from the first draft of the script as originally, Ahsoka didn't leave the Order at the end of "The Wrong Jedi" and prolly got promoted to Jedi Knight.

Also:

"Mace Windu once believed himself to be the Chosen One, he was jealous of Anakin!"

Uh... I'm just gonna post this one again...

Then there's this one I read which just made me cringe:

*sigh*

Yeah that TOTALLY sounds like something Mace “You Can’t Kill The Zillo Beast 'Cause It’s An Innocent Living Creature” Windu would do.

Intentionally leading his Jedi brothers to slaughter is so typical Mace “Get The Men To Safety While I Risk My Life For Them” Windu behavior.

So, why do some fans not like him?

I honestly dunno.

The only other reason I can think of (like the other Jedi, he's not as flawed as Anakin, some see him and the Jedi as holier than thou, he's nothing like Luke Skywalker) is explored more in detail here:

what do you think are some of obi wan's character flaws

Throughout TPM and AOTC, his flaw is primarily a lack of faith. He questions Qui-Gon's just "belief" in the Force's will and the prophecy etc in the first film, it's one of the reasons Qui-Gon tells him he has "much to learn of the Living Force" or whatever. In AOTC, it's more specifically about faith in Anakin and that Obi-Wan has done as much as he can do to help Anakin be a good person and a good Jedi and at some point he has to just trust that Anakin will figure the rest out for himself and Obi-Wan has to let go of his worries and doubts.

The lack of faith tends to manifest as arrogance a little bit, as a belief that he knows better than other people like Qui-Gon and the Council and Anakin, and it's pointed out several times in AOTC as specifically that.

This is the character flaw that he actually has OVERCOME by ROTS and that's why a lot of people have apparently decided that Obi-Wan is "too soft" on Anakin or whatever as a character flaw. I don't really see that as true, especially given how much of a nag he is and how quickly he puts Anakin in his place throughout AOTC. In ROTS, he is CHOOSING to have more faith in Anakin and not be quite as harsh because he wants to believe that Anakin can and will always make the right decision in the end, even if he struggles. So yes, he doesn't put Anakin in his place as much when Anakin throws a temper tantrum about not being made a Master and he vouches for Anakin in the conversation with Mace and Yoda later (an obvious parallel scene to the AOTC one where those roles are swapped) and he desperately wants to believe he can change Anakin's mind and save him after Order 66. But he also isn't like Padme in his refusal to believe that Anakin did the things we know he's done and he doesn't try to let Anakin get away with it either.

Obi-Wan isn't soft on Anakin, he just learned to have faith and that faith happens to not be rewarded because Anakin is, well, a selfish turd.

And if we go into the Kenobi show, the lack of faith actually comes BACK as a character flaw, but this time it manifests not as arrogance but as defeatism. He's lost everything, his faith last time was horrifically proven wrong, and he doesn't have a single ounce of support anywhere from anyone anymore. So he pins his entire identity on looking after Luke, but he doesn't trust himself OR Luke much because the last little Force-sensitive Skywalker kid he tried to train ended up ruining everything and Owen presumably picks up on some of that desperation and that's why he's not super keen on letting Obi-Wan spend time with Luke, even without the context to understand it. By the end of the series, he has to let go of all of those worries and doubts again and just trust that he gave Luke to good people who will ultimately raise him into a good man and that Luke won't make the same mistakes Anakin did and that Obi-Wan won't make the same mistakes either.

The lack of faith is a really important and relevant character flaw because Obi-Wan by ANH is Luke (and the audience's) whole introduction to the Force and the Jedi and their faith. He IS faith personified, he has to get LUKE to trust and believe in the Force in the first place so that the audience can believe in it, too. He is calm, settled, confident, and sure, but in a way that we need to believe is completely earned. That faith is the CORE of his character and it's why watching Obi-Wan learn to KEEP faith, even in dark times, even in the face of loss, is so so important. It doesn't just help us understand how he came to be the character we know from ANH, but it obviously also helps him be a foil to Anakin who never has faith in anything, especially in dark times and in the face of loss.

(This is also why I really really hate the whole backstory with Satine and how he nearly left the Order for her because it just demonstrates such a lack of understanding of who Obi-Wan actually is as a character, his place in the narrative, and why he's a foil to Anakin at all, but that's a different post.)

He can also get cocky in his own abilities sometimes and he's obviously something of a sarcastic bastard who enjoys pointing out other people's mistakes as a form of teasing friendly banter. Neither of those things are quite as narratively relevant as his lack of faith, but they're fun to play with.

Ah yes that comic. The one where Palpatine pressures Mace into letting him spend time with Anakin and Mace allows it. I want to get something out the way here first, because ppl so often seem to talk euphemistically around the elephant in the room, which is that Mace basically gets accused of handing Anakin over to a potential child molester in that scene. Which is certainly a take away you can have if you are so inclined, but I find it a little overblown, partly because I’m always aware that jedi are empaths skilled in sensing intent so their red flags would look different and partly because that was categorically not Palpatine’s intent and partly because it just seems like an unneccessarily bad faith reading of Mace Windu.The term ‘grooming’ does actually have multiple meanings.

So with that out of the equation is where it gets interesting to me. Palpatine: a lot things that are evil, but not that specific kind. While hiding his true intentions from jedi is a particular skill of his, what is interesting to think about is that he may not have needed to hide much. Sure, maybe he’s got a benevolent grandfatherly interest in the kid who saved his planet, or maybe he’s outwardly pretending at that while quietly projecting that Anakin is a promising little jedi with a lot of raw power and Palpatine has a political interest in cultivating his political views and a friendly relationship with him for future benefits. Exactly none of that is even a lie.

So with that take away, should Mace allow him to befriend Anakin?

Honestly I don’t have a concrete position on that. It touches on... a lot of current issues. But this isn’t about me, this is about how the jedi approach such things.

Overall it doesn’t seem like they’re inclined to try and control what influences and information padawans are exposed to. We see this repeatedly with Ahsoka, who has about a dozen mentors over the course of tcw. And they really don’t coddle padawans, which is something that clearly makes some viewers uncomfortable. I tend to assume that it’s less about controlling input and more about teaching critical thinking. In the case of Anakin, it would be Obi Wan’s job to teach him to navigate a friendship with the chancellor. Our view of that is pretty limited, so all we actually see is him cautioning him over Padme: “she’s still a politician. they cannot be trusted.” Which well. I guess in a sense that does sum it up.

And then there’s the concept that all jedi in the republic have to on some level learn how to manage senators. There’s a jedi who’s whole job is to liase with the senate. We see Obi Wan maintain friendships with Bail and Padme, and no one actually objects to Anakin being friends with Palpatine and Padme, at least until they think Palps is close to setting himself up as dictator-for-life and they’re not 100% sure Anakin wouldn’t help him. It kind of just seems like cultivating good relations with politicians is an unfortunate but necessary part of jedi life?

From that perspective it might even be considered a vote of confidence on Mace’s part, both in Anakin’s maturity/ability to parse manipulation and in Obi Wan’s guidance. And that... does fit with his deleted scene in AotC where he encourages Obi Wan to have faith in Anakin.

The Tragic Hero Full of Fear

Hello everyone! Before I get into this, I’d like to thank @jasontoddiefor​ for both the name and being the main enabler of this fun piece of writing. I also want to thank all my wonderful friends over on Discord for letting me bounce ideas off of them and helping me. You are all amazing!!

Ok, so let’s get into it!

The first six Star Wars movies (the Original and Prequel trilogies) are commonly referred to as “the Tragedy of Darth Vader.”  But what makes these movies a tragedy? How is Anakin Skywalker himself, the main character of said tragedy, a tragic hero? In this meta/essay, I will discuss how Anakin himself is definitionally a tragic hero and outline his story as it relates to the structure of a classic Greek tragedy.  

This essay will focus solely on Anakin’s character as he is canonically portrayed.

The Hero

Let’s go through the main traits of a tragic hero (as per early literature) and discuss them in the context of Anakin Skywalker.

Possesses immense courage and strength and is usually favored by the gods

Anakin’s courage is evident throughout his entire life, such as when he participates in the pod race in TPM or on the front lines during the Clone Wars. 

While we cannot definitively ascribe Anakin’s abilities to any deity, we can associate them with the Force. The Force is able to somewhat influence the happenings of the universe in certain ways and takes the place of any sort of deity.

Whether Anakin is the “Chosen One” or not, his connection to the Force is stronger than that of any other Force-sensitive being, so he is consequently closer to it than most, if not all, other Force-sensitive beings. 

Extreme loyalty to family and country 

Anakin is consistent in his demonstrations of loyalty to those he has strong feelings for (whether those feelings be romantic or platonic).

His devotion to Padmé surpasses his loyalty to the Jedi, and he is always willing to go to great lengths to ensure their safety and well-being.

Anakin also exhibits a strong sense of devotion to his mother, Shmi. His devotion to her, and by extension her wellbeing, surpasses his duties as Jedi. 

In ROTS, Anakin says, “I will not betray the Republic… my loyalties lie with the Chancellor and with the Senate… and with you” (you, in this case, referring to Padmé). In this quotation, Anakin’s loyalties are made quite clear. At this point, he is not faithful to the Jedi, but to his government, its leaders, and, of course, his wife.

Representative of society’s current values

During the Clone Wars, Anakin is known by the moniker, “the Hero with No Fear,” and is one of the Republic’s “poster boys.” He is charismatic, kind, seemingly fearless (obviously) and a strong fighter, thus representing the values that were important to the Republic at the time. The last characteristic is especially important because of the assurance it instills in times of war. As a representation of the Republic, Anakin’s prowess on the battlefield creates hope for its citizens that victory is possible. 

Anakin also empathizes with the opinion that the seemingly outdated Jedi Code holds them back. In the Citadel Arc, Tarkin remarks that “the Jedi Code prevents [the Jedi] from going far enough to achieve victory.” Anakin actually agrees with this statement, replying that “[he’s] also found that [the Jedi] sometimes fall short of victory because of [their] methods” (Season 3, Episode 19). He shows a sense of allegiance not to the ancient ways of the Jedi, but to the newer, more modern ideals regarding military action. 

Anakin claims to have brought “peace, justice, freedom, and security” to his “new Empire.” While the Empire's interpretations of the aforementioned values are skewed, Anakin continues to represent them as Darth Vader. 

Anakin’s statement to Obi-Wan also mirrors Palpatine’s declaration to the Senate: “In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society which I assure you will last for ten thousand years.” The people applaud this statement, demonstrating a general sense of exhaustion in regards to the war and a yearning for what this new Empire is promising them.

Lead astray/challenged by strong feelings

Though there are many, many examples of Anakin’s emotions getting the better of him, we’re simply going to list two:

Anakin’s fury and anguish after the death of his mom leads to his slaughter of the Tuskens

Anakin’s overwhelming fear of losing Padmé is ultimately what leads to his Fall.

Every tragic hero possesses what is called a hamartia, or a fatal flaw. This trait largely contributes to the hero’s catastrophic downfall. Anakin’s hamartia is his need for control, which partially manifests through his fear of loss. 

Let’s explore this idea in more detail. 

Though Anakin grows up as a slave, the movies neglect to explicitly cover the trauma left from his time in slavery. However, it is worth noting that slaves did not have the ability to make many choices for themselves; they didn’t even own their bodies. After being freed, Anakin is whisked away to become a Jedi. He does not possess much control over his life as Jedi, for he is simply told what path he is going to take. While Anakin does make this decision on his own, becoming a Jedi is a disciplined and somewhat-strict way of life and not one that allows for an abundance of reckless autonomy as he is wont to engage in. 

(Side note: I’m not here to argue about Qui-Gon’s decision-making abilities, nor do I wish to engage in discourse regarding the Jedi’s way of life. I am simply presenting and objectively stating these facts in relation to Anakin because they are pertinent to my point.) 

During AOTC, Anakin is unable to save his mother from death. As Shmi dies in his arms, Anakin is absolutely helpless. The situation is completely out of his control, and he is forced to contend with the reality that despite all of his power, he cannot control everything that happens. 

He also feels that he has a larger potential for power and is being held back by Obi-Wan: “although I'm a Padawan learner, in some ways... a lot of ways... I'm ahead of him. I'm ready for the trials. I know I am! He knows it too. He believes I'm too unpredictable… I know I started my training late... but he won't let me move on.” Anakin believes Obi-Wan, his teacher and mentor, is holding him back. He expresses a self-held conviction of his status and skills and does not trust the word of his superior. 

In ROTS, Anakin starts dreaming of Padmé’s death. Considering what occurred the last time he dreamt of a loved one’s demise, Anakin is justifiably (or at least justifiably from his point of view) worried. He consequently wants to stop these dreams from coming true in any way possible. His fear of death, especially that of his loved ones, represents his need for control over everything, even things that are uncontrollable. This overwhelming desire leads to Anakin’s drastic actions.

As Darth Vader, he no longer possesses such fears, for everyone that he loved is either dead or has betrayed him. He is the epitome of order and control, eliminating any who disturb this perceived equilibrium. 

However, this changes because of one person: Luke Skywalker. 

Luke reintroduces something that was (arguably) long-absent in Vader’s life, which is interpersonal attachment. Vader yearns for his son to join him by his side. When Luke refuses, Vader continues to attempt to seek him out. In ROTJ, Vader is forced to choose between the Emperor, a man he has long trusted and followed, and Luke, the son he never knew he had. Out of a desire to protect and keep what little family he has left (and likely a sense of “I couldn’t save Padmé but at least I can save her legacy by keeping her child(ren) alive and safe”), Vader defeats the Emperor and saves his son. Though his actions are definitionally heroic, Anakin never truly overcomes his hamartia. 

The Structure of a Tragedy

Classic Greek tragedies follow a specific story structure, which, according to the German playwright Gustav Freytag, is as follows:

We’re going to focus on the three aspects that best represent Anakin’s story as a tragedy: The peripeteia, the anagnorisis, and the catastrophe/denouement. These occur during and/or after the climax. 

The peripeteia is the climax/the turning point in the plot. Said change usually involves the protagonist's good luck and prosperity taking a turn for the worse. 

Within the tragedy we are discussing, the peripeteia occurs when Anakin chooses Sidious over Mace Windu and solidifies his allegiance to the Dark side, becoming the very thing he swore to destroy. It is at this point that things really start to go downhill. He kills children, chokes his wife, fights his best friend, gets his remaining limbs cut off, etc. 

The anagnorisis is the point in the tragedy when the protagonist recognizes their error, seeing the true nature of that which they were previously ignorant of, usually regarding their circumstances or a specific relationship (such as Oedipus’ realization that his wife was actually his mother). In most tragedies, the anagnorisis is in close proximity to the peripeteia. In Anakin’s story, the anagnorisis occurs during ROTJ. After being wounded in his fight against Luke, Vader watches as his son is brutally electrocuted by Sidious. It is at this moment that Darth Vader realizes that Luke was right—there is good in him, and he still has the chance to redeem himself. 

The catastrophe/denouement (since this is a tragedy, we’re going to go with “catastrophe”) is the end of the tragedy. Events and conflicts are resolved and brought to a close, and a new sort of “normality” is established. The catastrophe often provides a sense of catharsis (release of tension) for the viewer. The protagonist is worse off than they were at the beginning of the tragedy. 

The catastrophe within “The Tragedy of Darth Vader” transpires soon after the anagnorisis at the end of ROTJ. Though the realization of his capacity for good is the anagnorisis, the follow-through (via his actions), as well as what consequently occurs, is the catastrophe. As previously discussed, Vader saves Luke by killing the Emperor but does so at the cost of his own life. This serves as the resolution of the tragedy, for the hero’s fate has been confirmed—Darth Vader fulfills his destined role as the Chosen One and, in doing so, brings about his own redemption and dies as Anakin Skywalker.

In conclusion, the categorization of Star Wars as a tragedy is a choice that heavily influences Anakin, the protagonist and hero, of the story. He is without a doubt a tragic hero whose fatal flaw leads to his downfall. In accordance with Aristotle’s theory of tragedy, Anakin’s tragedy is constructed not by personal agency, but by the narrative itself.

Works Cited

“Darth Vader.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 15 Mar. 2021, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_Vader.

“Dramatic Structure.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 20 Feb. 2021, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure.

“Hero.” Encyclopaedia Britannica, Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc., 19 Oct. 2016, www.britannica.com/art/hero-literary-and-cultural-figure.

Lucas, George, director. Star Wars: Episode III— Revenge of the Sith. Lucasfilm Ltd., 2005.

Lucas, George, director. Star Wars: Episode II— Attack of the Clones. Lucasfilm Ltd. , 2002.

Michnovetz, Matt. “Star Wars: The Clone Wars, ‘Counterattack.’” Season 3, episode 19, 4 Mar. 2011.

“Sophocles: the Purest Artist.” Encyclopædia Britannica, Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., www.britannica.com/art/tragedy-literature/Sophocles-the-purest-artist.

“Theory of Tragedy.” Encyclopædia Britannica, Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., www.britannica.com/art/tragedy-literature/Theory-of-tragedy.

“Tragic Hero.” Dictionary.com, Dictionary.com, www.dictionary.com/browse/tragic-hero. 

Just popping in to say, I agree with you on the Master/Padawan ships being ew. But, as an Obidala shipper, I kinda want to ask that anon why Obidala would mean not understanding the characters? I mean, I've read books upon books in the EU and have a fairly good grasp on the two of them and I feel like they're more compatible personality& morality wise than anidala. (Not saying anidala is bad, because it's not. I ship it, too, just not as much as obidala). Plus there's just the whole part in the RotS novel where Padmé realizes that although she loves Anakin, she doesn't trust him. But she trusts Obi-Wan. Which, for me, is why I ship Obidala just a bit more than anidala because trust is everything, and it's canon that anidala keeps so many secrets from each other.

Also just... Insert that tik tok that's like "So you're telling me Padmé Amidala, former queen of naboo..." Here

I don’t know about the other anon but the reason I don’t ship Obidala is because I don’t think they are compatible. I view Obi-Wan as someone who puts duty and the Jedi council above everything else (I mean it literally took Anakin being burned alive for Obi-Wan to tell him he loved him) and also him being alright with lying to Luke about Vader being his father. Also, both in canon and legends, he chose duty over love (with Siri and Satine). Obi-Wan falls in love with them, that’s for sure, but it’s very different from Anakin as he notes in the book Secrets of the Jedi: 

But the way Obi-Wan had spoken had been so measured. With a temperament like that, it was impossible to love, Anakin was sure.

Padme, on the other hand, is someone who puts love above duty and chose that many times (especially when she decided to marry Anakin, and then overlooking his crimes on Mustafar and giving him a chance to be with her). Anakin has the same sense of compassion and values love more than duty and I think that’s what she admires about Anakin too. I think Anakin and Padme have a lot in common than she could ever have with Obi-Wan. I see Obi-Wan as the type to value the order he’s in whereas Padme (from AOTC novelization) also longed for a life free of responsibilities but ultimately couldn't because she felt she had a duty. But you are entitled to your own opinion so it’s cool.

Even Anakin notes they are very similar in AOTC novelization: 

Anakin shook his head doubtfully, but he wasn’t bothered by the possibility. In a strange way, he was glad that Padmé knew the rhyme, glad that it was a common gift from mothers to their children. And glad, especially, that he and Padmé had yet another thing in common.

 Ah yes. I remember that Tik Tok about what Padme ever saw in Anakin but I think there’s a lot of admirable qualities in Anakin (especially in movies, I don’t mean in TCW because I don’t like TCW’s take on their relationship which fundamentally changed their characters from the movies) so we may be talking about completely different versions of the characters here. 

Here’s some excerpts from novelizations regarding what made Padme fall for Anakin: 

She could see him now, not as a Jedi Padawan and her protector, but just as a young man. A handsome young man, and one whose actions repeatedly professed his love for her. A dangerous young man, to be sure, a Jedi who was thinking about things he should not. A man who was inevitably following the call of his heart above that of pragmatism and propriety. And all for her. Padmé couldn’t deny the attractiveness of that. 

But still, as she stood there looking upon him, his face now serene, she couldn’t deny the attraction. He seemed to her like a young hero, a budding Jedi—and she had no doubt that he would be among the greatest that great Order had ever known. And at the same time, he seemed to her to be the same little kid she had known during the war with the Trade Federation, inquisitive and impetuous, aggravating and charming all at once. 

She loved the way he was reacting to this place, to all of Naboo, his simple joys forcing her to see things as she had when she was younger, before the real world had pushed her to a place of responsibility. It surprised her that a Jedi Padawan would be so ... She couldn’t think of the word. Carefree? Joyous? Spirited? Some combination of the three?

Padmé’s hand slowly dropped to her side and she sat listening in amazement at how honestly he was opening up before her, baring his heart though he knew she might tear it asunder with a single word. She was honored by the thought, and truly touched.

A man who knew exactly what he wanted and was honest enough to simply ask for it; a man strong enough to unroll his deepest feelings before her without fear and without shame. A man who had loved her for a decade, with faithful and patient heart, while he waited for the act of destiny he was sure would someday open her own heart to the fire in his.

He is not a perfect man: he is prideful, and moody, and quick to anger—but these faults only make her love him the more, for his every flaw is more than balanced by the greatness within him, his capacity for joy and cleansing laughter, his extraordinary generosity of spirit, his passionate devotion not only to her but also in the service of every living being.

So, Padme loved Anakin for all his honesty, recklessness and flaws, and I think they were both people who loved too wholeheartedly (and maybe a little selfishly), wanted a family together, and idealized each other which made them overlook each other’s flaws. I don’t really agree they didn’t trust each other. There were many lines at the beginning of ROTS about them trusting each other. 

He could feel her patience, and her trust, and he was so grateful for both that tears welled once more.

I don’t think they started keeping secrets until the very end of ROTS because Padme had given her word to the other Senators to keep all the Rebellion stuff a secret and even then she wanted to tell Anakin but he was siding with Palpatine and refused to listen. And even then she was very uncomfortable about having to keep a secret from Anakin so it’s safe to guess they didn’t have a habit of keeping secrets from the other. 

Don’t make me lie to my husband was her unspoken plea. She tried to convey it with her eyes. Please, Bail. Don’t make me lie to him. It will break his heart.

Also, Anakin in ROTS was really unstable and sleep-deprived and he was constantly being manipulated by Palpatine and the Jedi weren’t helping either. Obi-Wan is more collected and reliable and they were good friends so it makes sense why Padme trusted Obi-Wan about this more than Anakin. Also, didn’t Obi-Wan sneak into her ship and betrayed her in a sense? 

That said, I am not against Obidala and it could work in fanon but I personally don’t see them growing close in the actual story. 

I love Anakin but sometimes I feel like I’m too dumb to understand the complexities of his character lol. One thing I was thinking about is how Anakin is clearly disenfranchised with the Republic (like how he says the system doesn’t work in AOTC). So how come he stresses how important his loyalty is to the Republic in ROTS, (like how when Padmé suggests the republic is corrupt he immediately retaliates and says she sounds like a separatist)?

You’re not dumb, anon. I promise you. Anakin’s story is complicated because it’s spread over decades of content. There was only so much they could explore in the movies and not everything translate well to the scream. Inner monologues sometimes are better left for the pages. And that’s exactly where that part of Anakin is explore. 

When the war was over he’d go back to Tatooine and see. When the war was over he’d buy any child he found enslaved to Watto and find them a home where they might live and love in safety. Belonging to no one but themselves. I should have done it before now. Wasn’t that my other childhood dream? Become a Jedi and free the slaves. Instead I became a Jedi and let myself forget. Let them convince me that it’s not our job to remake the Republic. The Jedi were keepers of the peace, not legal enforcers. That was the Senate’s job. How many times had he been told that? He’d lost count. But the Senate was falling down on the job, wasn’t it? What was the use of having anti-slavery laws if the barves who broke them never paid for their crimes? It was enough to shake his hard-won and harder-kept faith. If scum like Watto and Jabba and the other Hutts kept on making their fat profits on the backs of living property—and if the Senate continued to turn a blind eye—how could anyone believe in the Republic? How could he? Padmé says she understands, but she hasn’t pushed for a Senate hearing. And Palpatine—he’s promised he’ll tackle the problem but nothing’s been done. It’s too political. Too corrupt. Too complicated. There are credits in slavery—and credits trump justice. Always have. Always will. And the Jedi? They didn’t want to get involved. Even Qui-Gon …[Karen Miller. Star Wars: Clone Wars Gambit: Stealth]

Anakin is loyal to the Republic because he’s an extremely loyal person and because that’s what he was taught for over 10 years of his life. He was rescued from slavery by the Jedi, the great, heroic protectors of the Republic and, as a kid who dreamed about becoming a Jedi, of course he would want to do the same. Anakin also daydreamed about saving people, as a Jedi, and part of him associated the three. In his mind being part of the Jedi Order = being part of the Republic = saving people. 

But Anakin wasn’t a blind loyalist, as evidenced in AOTC. Anakin is fully aware the Republic is broken and people are suffering for it but, after years of being told there was nothing he could, he kind of resigned himself to the fact and accepted the Republic was ‘the best they got’. 

At the same time, because he was so loyal to people around him, he couldn’t accept the Republic was broken because then what was he fighting for? He needed to justify all the suffering around him and he chose to believe the was fighting a righteous cause. That’s why he reacted so badly to Padme´s words:

“What if the democracy we’re fighting for no longer exists? What if the Republic itself has become the very evil we’ve been fighting to destroy?” “Oh, this again.” Anakin irritably waved off her words. “I’ve been hearing that garbage ever since Geonosis. I never thought I’d hear it from you.” “A few seconds ago you were saying almost the same thing!” “Where would the Republic be without Palpatine?” “I don’t know,” she said. “But I’m not sure it would be worse than where we are.” All the danger, all the suffering, all the killing, all my friends who gave their lives—? All for nothing—? [Matthew Stover. Revenge of the Sith]

Anakin wasn’t fighting out loyalty for the Republic, he was in it for his friends, for Obi-wan, for Ahsoka, for the clones and for the innocents he always wanted to save. 

It was okay; they’d always told him so. He was fighting to save his men, and if he did terrible things out of compassion, out of love, then he wasn’t turning to the dark side. That was the Jedi way. For my mother. For my men. For Padmé. [Karen Traviss. The Clone Wars]

Anakin tightened his belt and felt for his lightsaber. They had to pull this off. His feelings about Hutts didn’t matter. It wasn’t about the kid; it was about his men, the Grand Army, about getting the war won and over with. He focused on that. The troopers were now lined up at both hatches. [Karen Traviss. The Clone Wars]

“For Anakin,” Obi-Wan said at length, “there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I have ever met—loyal beyond reason, in fact. Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are the heart of being a Jedi, he—he will never, I think, truly understand.” […] Obi-Wan guessed they were remembering the times Anakin had violated orders—the times he had put at risk entire operations, the lives of thousands, the control of whole planetary systems—to save a friend. More than once, in fact, to save Obi-Wan. “I think,” Obi-Wan said carefully, “that abstractions like peace don’t mean much to him. He’s loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him.”[Matthew Stover. Revenge of the Sith]

Another person Anakin was blindly loyal to was Palpatine and Padmé’s doubts about the Republic triggered him because it meant Palpatine was somehow in the wrong.

He bit down on his temper. “Everybody complains about Palpatine having too much power, but nobody offers a better alternative. Who should be running the war? The Senate? You’re in the Senate, you know those people—how many of them do you trust?” “All I know is that things are going wrong here. Our government is headed in exactly the wrong direction. You know it, too—you just said so!” “I didn’t mean that. I just—I’m tired of this, that’s all. This political garbage. Sometimes I’d rather just be back out on the front lines. At least out there, I know who the bad guys are.” [Matthew Stover. Revenge of the Sith]

Of course, Anakin wasn’t exactly stable at the time and definitely influenced his reaction.

do you think anakin and obi-wan ever severed their training bond?

my first instinct was to immediately say ‘NO’ but. I haven’t watch/read everything star wars related (and I’ve read the books a long time ago, so a reread is in order in the next weeks) so there is a possibility that in canon, they did it, like they were probably supposed to. But we don’t know a lot about training bond, or just force bond in general, do we? 

stop me if I’m wrong, but talks and explanations about bonding are… vague at best. When I read your question, I immediately thought about all the fics that used it as a plot device because it’s way more common in fics than anywhere else, and yeah, it’s kind of amazing and most of the time it really adds something deeper to their relationship. 

But in canon? I honestly don’t know. Wouldn’t Obi-wan have sensed that something was wrong with anakin when he was on utapau and anakin was having a meltdown and, you know, falling to the dark side??? I know he had his own things to deal with at the time and was pretty far away, but still?

But like I said, I still want to say that they didn’t break their bond because it makes more sense to me. The clone wars started right after aotc and anakin was still a padawan, so with all that was happening it makes sense that they just didn’t take the time to do it and also because it would have been a great help during the war! Keeping a bond would have been pretty useful during combats, but also psychologically, to keep something they always had between them and bring them comfort. They’re The Team, everyone knows they work better together, (at the cost of cody’s blood pressure I’m sure,) but they also bring balance to each other and can always count on each other when one reaches his limit or can’t deal with something. This really makes me think about Anakin in the rots novel, when he learns that Palpatine is a sith and he immediately thinks:

“If only Obi-Wan were here - Obi-Wan would know what to say. What to do. Obi-Wan could handle this.“ 

‘OKAY THIS IS TOO MUCH FOR ME WHERE IS OBI-WAN TO TELL ME HOW TO REACT TO THIS’ 

tell me again how he’s not used to Obi-wan always being there for him after that, even if he hasn’t been his padawan for years now (And do not get me started on how much FAITH Obi-wan has in Anakin, he basically keeps saying to everyone that Anakin will NEVER fail him and that he trusts him with anything, so you know)

If we keep talking about books, there’s also this scene in Wild Space where Obi wan is injured somewhere, and anakin literally follows the force to guide him to Obi-wan:

“Obi-Wan’s presence was weakening… fading… the outline of his spirit was starting to blur…

No! No! I will not let this happen! 

Oblivious to the organized mayhem surrounding him, the destruction, the teeming emergency responders and their blaring horns and amplified voices, he flew like a blaster bolt to Obi-Wan.

The stinking smoke was really bad now, thick and chocking. It was harder to see. But he didn’t need eyes, he had the Force. It guided hom lower, prompted him to slow down, slow down, slow down again. To nudge his way left-more left- just a little more left- 

There.”

I mean, I guess we could say that because they’ve known each other for a long time, even if they don’t have a bond anymore, they could probably still recognise each other’s presence in the Force. But I’m pretty sure not all Jedi can use the Force as a GPS tracking system to Obi-Wan. 

And of course I reblogged recently the scene from WIld Space again where Windu reluctantly acknowledges their bond:

“Which is more worrying? said Mace, fingers drumming his knee. “The fact that he confirms your concerns… or that at his age, with his still-limited experience, he can sense something’s wrong when thousands of light-years separate him and Obi-Wan?” 

You could say that this is actually a confirmation of Anakin being way more powerful than anyone, but I prefer to think about how Windu is really tired of those two who don’t even TRY to hide that they’re still bonded to a level the council doesn’t even want to THINK about.

So no, I want to believe that they didn’t sever their bond and because I love to suffer, I also choose to believe that they didn’t completely break the bond even after mustafar because Vader thought it would help him find Obi-wan one day and Obi-wan probably couldn’t bear to do anything about it. And that’s why when Obi-wan died on the death star, Vader realised he was completely alone for the first time in more than 30 years. 

I guess my final answer is ‘I don’t know, but definitely NO’ but once again, I haven’t watch/read everything (and I’m really not an expert in Legends material) so I’m just choosing what I want because I’m more focus on enjoying what I like than what is really canon or not 

HEY, COOL, SO I’M CRYING ABOUT OBI-WAN KENOBI AND ANAKIN SKYWALKER AGAIN. This is such a fascinating look at their dynamic when Anakin was younger, that Anakin is clearly boiling with frustration and Obi-Wan’s reaction is to give him leeway, to understand that he’s working on it, that nobody’s perfect and nobody expects Anakin to be a perfect Jedi, but he’s getting there.  Obi-Wan praises Anakin several times in this issue alone and, when Anakin has an outburst at him, the whole, “You never wanted me!” thing, Obi-Wan is hurt and concerned about this, so he makes sure Anakin knows he’s wanted. He gives Anakin space for a couple of hours, lets him cool down because Anakin needs that breathing room for a bit, then trusts him when they land on the planet and helps save himself from the pirates.  He gives him an important job to do, he trusts Anakin to use his training to help, and then he sits down with Anakin, gently and warmly explains to him that Obi-Wan felt like Anakin would be the one who didn’t want him. Obi-Wan makes himself vulnerable with Anakin, shows that he has worries and fears as well, that if he couldn’t save Qui-Gon, someone who could already take care of himself, how can he save someone who’s just learning?  But that’s the whole point--Obi-Wan listens when he needs to, understands that he needs to understand himself just as much as he needs to understand Anakin, that this struggle is just as much for him as it is for Anakin.  That he doesn’t hate himself or rip himself to shreds over this, because Obi-Wan’s emotional foundations are the bedrock of all good (THANKS AGAIN FOR THAT QUOTE, “MASTER & APPRENTICE”) and he’s so incredibly emotionally stable that he can take stock of himself and Anakin both, that he can look outside his own feelings, that he can know himself and recognize when he falls into perfectly understandable and human pitfalls, that he can recognize that Jedi wisdom is:

(The Last Jedi novelization by Jason Fry) This is why I will always defend Obi-Wan as a teacher, because he makes sure to talk to Anakin, to show that he understands maybe not everything of what Anakin’s going through but still a lot of it, Obi-Wan doesn’t chastise him for being moody or misunderstanding, instead he praises Anakin when he does well, offers him things he knows Anakin will like, and makes them a team.  Yes, sometimes he gets frustrated, yes, sometimes Anakin oversteps his bounds and will continue to do so long beyond when he should have learned more control over himself, but even then Obi-Wan makes sure to ask how Anakin’s doing (asks about Anakin’s dreams in AOTC, until Anakin changes the subject on him), he makes sure to joke and laugh with him (when Anakin is panicking in the lift, Obi-Wan jokes with him to calm him down, and it works), he makes sure to tell Anakin things that will make him happy (points out that Padme was glad to see them, when Anakin was getting upset that she didn’t seem to care). This entire issue really seemed to be keeping Attack of the Clones in mind, that Anakin has trouble with not being ahead of where he’s ready to be, that he’s teetering between being ready and not ready to come along on a mission here, that he’s teetering between being ready and not ready to be on his own during AOTC, that Anakin is champing at the bit at 19 to be allowed to go beyond their mandate and to be seen as a big shot before he’s ready, that Anakin is surly that he’s being put with the “babies” in order to catch up before he’s ready to move on.  That 19 year old Anakin should know better, where 13 year old Anakin is given far more leeway, but ultimately Obi-Wan’s approach is the same--that he keeps being warm and understanding with Anakin, that even when he puts down boundaries, he still cheers him up and offers to talk whenever Anakin needs it, still understands that Anakin is a work in progress. Just as they all are.  That a Master is meant to be a student just as much as a Padawan.  Obi-Wan is still learning and so of course he supports Anakin as he’s learning, whether it’s when he’s 13 or 19 or 23, he’s never expected Anakin to be perfect.  Only to keep learning.  And to talk to him whenever Anakin needs to, because Obi-Wan Kenobi doesn’t have to be vomiting his feelings everywhere to be warm and caring and open. He talks about Qui-Gon.  He talks about his own worries.  He says the Jedi Council is wise, but they’re not perfect, he shows such faith and trust in Anakin, shows that his feelings are understandable, but he’s absolutely wanted. Obi-Wan tells him he’s doing well, that Anakin handles himself admirably.  OBI-WAN KENOBI SUPPORTED HIM, TALKED WITH HIM, AND TAUGHT HIM.  OBI-WAN KENOBI WAS SO GOOD WITH HIM AND THIS IS WHY THEIR LATER FALLING APART HURTS SO MUCH, BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH GOOD AND CARE HERE. That, at their very foundation, they are inherently an incredible, wonderful, warm combination for each other.  Anakin and Obi-Wan, even at this young stage of their relationship, bring out so much good in each other, allow all these good things to flourish, and we get to see how good they were together.  THANKS, STAR WARS, I’M CRYING ABOUT THE TEAM AGAIN.

The Last Skywalker or Homecoming of the Children or It’s About Family

This is my very own interpretation of the outcome of the Star Wars saga and its wrap-up, after having rewatched the movies twice last year as well as made researches in the web and thought about it for some time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The final battle on Crait in TLJ mirrors, with many visual parallels, Anakin’s assault on the Jedi Temple in ROTS, which had its terrible climax in the annihilation of the Jedi children padawans. In Kylo’s case, the attack is a total failure: the Resistance escapes, and Rey has brought with her the sacred Jedi texts from Ahch-To ensuring that their philosophy will not die.

In the final scene on Crait we see a frame of Kylo’s / Ben’s face which shows the opposite of Anakin / Vader after the battle at the Temple - on his knees instead of standing, bathed in white instead of yellow-reddish light, bare-headed instead of shadowed, his features vulnerable instead of hardened, his eyes directed up at his left instead of down at his right. That this story is going in the opposite direction of the prequels, closing up the saga making a circle and leading Ben Solo to his redemption, is undeniable.

Ben’s anger against his family led to nothing, and he wanted to eliminate Snoke to be free of him, not because he had an ambition for power; he strained for freedom and purpose and belonging with Rey, whom he feels as his equal. But we have already seen that General Hux would not hesitate to kill the new Supreme Leader at the first occasion; so it would not surprise me if the next and last chapter of the saga would begin with an act of state which would disempower Kylo / Ben and force him to flee across the galaxy, kicking over the traces. He killed Snoke to become the master of his own fate at last, thus mirroring and growing beyond Anakin, who had told Padmé he could overthrow the Emperor and rule the galaxy with her but remained Palpatine’s slave until shortly before his death. Both Anakin and Ben are no leaders or governors by nature; as Force users, their task is the galaxy’s spiritual welfare, not its political union. However, this union will not be possible unless the populations know and feel that there is an all-encompassing ideal behind it, that of a Force being and remaining in balance.

Although many fans lamented its seeming lack of purpose, in my opinion Finn’s and Rose’s journey to Canto Bight was pivotal for TLJ. It was important that they meet D.J. and hear his point of view as an outsider, i.e. that war is a dirty business which only makes people rich who have no qualms selling weapons (often to both sides), and that every kind of war is useless in the long run because “you blow them up today, they blow you up tomorrow.”

Even more important, in my opinion, is their encounter with the enslaved children who take care of the fathiers. These children seem insignificant sidekicks, emphasized by the fact that they only communicate with Finn and Rose through gestures and by the end we hear one of them speaking in an alien language; thus, they seem estranged to the story. Nevertheless, in all three scenes when they appear their features are very clearly discernible, including the few seconds when Finn observes them through the binoculars.

The children enjoy the fathier’s liberation because they would love to have the opportunity to run away, too. And the ending scene of TLJ shows that one of these children is a Force user and that he dreams about being a Jedi - a parallel with Anakin, who was a slave himself and dreamt, when he was a child, of being a Jedi and coming to free Tatooine’s slave population. (Another small detail: Cantonica, too, is a planet almost entirely covered in desert.)

The role of children in Star Wars always is very important. Anakin’s friends on Tatooine were slaves like himself, but the Jedi padawans we see at the temple don’t seem to be in an enviable position either: they are separated from their families at a very young age and taught to learn emotional detachment, since Jedi are not supposed to have close connections. In AotC and RotS we see how the affectionate and protective Anakin cannot endure his isolation, and how his intelligence criticizes the Jedi’s chief interest in politics and their lack of compassion. (As in the classic trilogy, it always comes up to him to speak the disagreeable truths nobody wants to hear.) His attitude results in setbacks and humiliations by the Jedi, who are convinced of being unquestionably in the right. All of this, in a chain reaction beginning with his mother’s cruel and senseless death, leads to his damnation; even though they had no really evil intentions, the Jedi were for a large part responsible for the disaster initiated by the future Emperor and then continued by him and his apprentice, turned into the ruthless Darth Vader.

Anakin’s ultimate moment of damnation is the carnage of the Jedi children, who were completely innocent and who additionally, before he raised his light sabre against them, had approached him with respect and trust, even calling him “master”, obviously not knowing that the Jedi had humiliated him additionally by denying him the title.

If we now assume that Kylo Ren’s / Ben Solo’s journey is basically an inversion of Anakin’s fate, it seems most logical to me to assume that he will have to meet the Canto Bight children (maybe also other children, but I would assume these, since they were already introduced in detail) and to find his future by bonding with them.

Let us consider his character as we have known him until now. Ben does not seem aggressive and violent in his nature, he has to hide behind Kylo Ren’s mask to do his evil deeds. On Crait he makes a fool of himself; the only successfully cruel act he commits bare-headed is Han’s killing, which he only manages because Han lets him do it, and which traumatizes him to the point that he can’t kill any more except in self-defence. During his interactions with Rey we meet a timid, awkward youngster, who is however also patient (he never gets angry despite Rey’s repeated aggression) and empathic (he is the one who listens to her and supports her after her experience in the Dark Side cave).

Kylo’s / Ben’s personality, like Anakin’s / Vader’s, is torn in two, but the fracture is much less deep, which can also be seen from the names: while Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader sound perfectly dissimilar, there is not much difference between Kylo Ren and Solo Ben. He is not physically maimed and handicapped like his grandfather, amply shown when he easily takes off his mask, when we see him shirtless, or when he offers Rey his hand - the right one, which distinctively is not a robotic hand. Luke could sense Vader’s inner conflict, proof that this conflict was always there but so deeply buried that only a Force-sensitive close blood relative could feel it; while Kylo’s / Ben’s outbursts of anger show that his own conflict is much more below the surface.

We can only conjecture what led Kylo to kill his own father; Snoke called it a “test” for him, probably threatening to kill Kylo himself if he didn’t commit the deed, but we do sense that there is also some personal reason. When he says to his father that Ben was “a weakling and a fool who deserved to die”, this leads us to understand that he has never learned to accept his introverted, thoughtful and vulnerable nature, even less to value it: Ben is practically his roguish, charming, good-looking father’s opposite. Knowing Snoke, he probably threw salt into Ben’s low self-esteem making him believe that by giving up the name and life of Ben Solo and becoming “the mighty Kylo Ren”, a persona modelled on Vader’s example, he would become someone “strong” as opposite to his attitude towards the Ben Solo persona. For the purpose, Snoke suggested that Ben had to kill his father, of whom he allegedly “has the heart”. But the exact contrary happens: Ben is traumatized by the act and finally understands that Snoke only used him (proving that Han’s words to him were right), destroys Kylo’s mask and never speaks to Snoke or even looks at him again. Allowing Ben to kill him, Han committed his last and most significant act of heroism - forcing his son to look at him while he committed the deed, the horror of which never leaves him again. This closes the cycle to Anakin, who had first become a killer, annihilating the tusken village, after his mother’s senseless death.

As we know Anakin when he is a child, he is intelligent, fort-right, self-assured and supportive of others. When we see him again in AotC, he is a padawan - frustrated, isolated, suffocated by the Jedi’s expectations and the lack of chances they offer him, and burdened by his master’s lack of faith in him. The child he was seems gone for good. (Another parallel: his son Luke, who had grown up with his aunt and uncle in a normal family until he was about twenty, is a pure, authentic soul full of dreams and ideals, and we even see him play with a toy aircraft in one scene on Tatooine.) We have never seen, until now, a “normal” family with mother, father and children in the saga; our heroes grew up in surrogated families or without one altogether, like in Han’s or Rey’s case. We can only speculate how far Ben Solo’s family was “normal”; their parent’s marriage was difficult, his mother busy with politics, and he was sent to training to his uncle at a young age - we do not exactly know when, but he assuredly wasn’t an adult yet. This is a big hint, for me, that peace throughout the galaxy will be possible if children could grow up in a safe place, well-educated but also loved and respected. The purpose of peace, in my opinion, is always to make the concept of a home possible. Superficially seen, Star Wars is a story of Good and Evil, but it’s not; it’s about Love and War.

At the end of TLJ, Ben is in love with Rey, but his feelings are not requited and now he has no one to whom he can offer them. I believe it would be a godsend for Ben to meet the children and learn to love them and be responsible for them. Among other things this would make him grow and find again the child he once was, the son of Han and Leia who, despite the mistakes they made with him, most certainly loved him. When they meet again in TFA, Leia immediately takes responsibility speaking with her husband, saying that she never should have sent their son away from home. She was convinced that her brother, the Jedi, would protect him, but by now she has understood that in his family sphere he would have been safer from Snoke’s evil influence. At the end of RotJ Luke was already showing the emotional detachment he retained until TLJ; this was, on the long run, neither good for him nor for his pupils. He could teach them the ways of the Force, but his wisdom was not enough to protect them. Tragically, and unknowingly, as a master he had gone a similar path as Obi-Wan and Yoda, who were wise but not truly compassionate because the Jedi ways had taught them to be detached, i.e. not to really care. Luke could not offer his nephew the comfort of a home, and this probably applied to his other students as well. Spiriting a dozen of powerful young men off to a distant planet, away from the happenings in the galaxy and without distinct purpose, and trying to teach them to suppress their emotions, Luke was unwittingly sitting on a powder keg, repeating on a smaller scale the disaster that had been caused by the Jedi Order during the times of the Old Republic. The young man who once was compassion incarnate became, ironically, uncaring precisely due to his commitment to the Jedi rules. Only after being shaken by Rey’s anger and later by Yoda’s advice he finds back to himself one last time and projects his image to Crait in order to rescue his sister and apologize to his nephew, giving up his life in the process.

If there is anything we can learn about the Jedi is that they were no heroes; Luke truly was a hero, but he was not infallible, and his story also teaches that being a hero is not a happy and fulfilling task. As beautiful as the classic trilogy is, it’s a story about longing for the past, about the desire to bring back the “past order”. None of the rebels seems to consider that the old Republic can’t have been all that good if it enabled the rise of the Empire or at least couldn’t foresee it. What the galaxy needs is not the old, but a new order, and children are demonstrative of a fresh and better start.

Ben Solo is the last from the Skywalker blood, and the Skywalkers are notoriously family men: Anakin wanted nothing more than a home. He got mad with grief when his mother died, he married although he was not supposed to, and the day Padmé told him that she was pregnant he declared that it was the happiest day of his life. Luke himself, even before knowing so, always did anything he could and ignoring the risks, to save and keep his family together (his sister, his father) and adding to it (befriending Han, who by marrying Leia became his brother-in-law). It’s when the Sykwalkers are united as a family that the galaxy is at peace. Ben has turned his back on his family feeling rejected and betrayed; all we see him do with the First Order’s means has only one aim, finding Luke and confronting him with all of his pent-up anger. So we can assume that he is not cold towards his family but on the contrary feels a lot for it, else he would not be so frustrated and disappointed. But by the end of TLJ Luke as well as Han’s dice, his last keepsake, have dissolved; a sign that his anger has literally gone up in smoke.

We have heard repeatedly the opinion other people had of Ben: his parents and his uncle feared that he might be or become like Vader, Snoke accused him of having his father’s heart… but in my opinion, Ben shows his Skywalker blood most by having, like all of them, his mother’s heart. In TESB Han pointed out that Leia would not be so angry with him if she didn’t care; and it was always she who comforted the others when they were hurt or traumatized. Ben killed Snoke in cold blood, but his extremely aggressive demeanour against Luke shows that he still cares a lot about his uncle; and in the scenes with Rey we have repeatedly seen his underlying compassionate nature. Although he is raw and immature, we feel his mother’s passionate heart in him. He has his father’s shrewdness at times, but the way he feels comes all from Leia.

Once again, the saga’s love for figurative speech helps us, emphasizing the theory of Ben Solo’s redemption: at the beginning we met a child who had no father, and the young man who is his reincarnation is the only one whose sword has the form of a cross. I do not doubt that Ben Solo will indeed “finish what his grandfather started”, as he had promised. He is the Chosen One now, Anakin being dead. That is also the main reason why I’m sure Ben will not die in the end: in Darth Vader we already had a figure who died for his sins and it would be unoriginal, mildly speaking, to simply go there again. But most importantly, Vader had left something good in the galaxy in form of his two children. If Kylo / Ben dies, the power he has inherited from his grandfather, his loving upbringing by his parents and the teachings from his uncle will all be gone with him, too: which would mean that the Skywalker family was begotten only to bring death and terror to the galaxy. This family was always meant to bring peace and stability, but it was often prevented from doing so by influences stronger than them.

The last Skywalker is now free from all outward influence - Snoke, his father, his uncle; and he has no past sins to repair for but his own, differently from Luke who spent the rest of his life trying to atone for Vader’s crimes. Ben finally has the freedom to make his own choices and to go his own way; he is the last Skywalker, but he is also the first who must learn to live without a father figure. In theory, he could now go anywhere: Snoke (albeit not voluntarily) left him his power, Luke his knowledge, Han his love.

Many viewers are of the opinion that Kylo Ren can’t hold a candle to Darth Vader in his villainous role. But this is deliberate: the tormented galaxy does not need another Vader. When the saga began, the central figure was Darth Vader, the Dark, the Evil Father; yet as we meet him when he is a child, he is the Good Son. When we first see Kylo he is the Evil Son; so narratively, I assume that his goal is that of becoming the Good Father. With a family of his own, the last Skywalker would finally find his balance and thus, bring peace to the galaxy.

On a side note, Ben may have an encounter with his grandfather aided by the Force, in order to get to know him how he truly was: an affectionate, protective person whose alleged “power” as Darth Vader hid the tragedy of a torn soul and dismembered body.

I am not quite certain about the galaxy’s political goal, but I would suggest that the only viable solution would be through matriarchy; the few working political systems we briefly know of are Naboo under Padmés rule and Alderaan under Breha’s, both of whom queens. In any case, none of them was a Force user; they did not reign using the Force the way Anakin / Vader / Kylo wanted. But not being Force users, they had never been padawans: thus they had not learned their caring and responsible attitude from the Jedi.

Ben Solo is by now the only known person in the galaxy who was actually trained in the ways of the Jedi and also knows the Dark Side. (In theory there are also the Knights of Ren, but their destiny is unknown as of yet.)

I believe it will be Ben’s task, together with Rey who is his equal in the Force, to find and keep a new and better balance in the Force without suppressing the Dark Side, and growing Force-sensitive children in a more natural way; not separating them from their families (respectively giving them one in case they don’t have it), not teaching them emotional detachment but compassion, and leaving them the choice as to whether they want to become Jedi or not. (Keep in mind: the Skywalker men from all three generations had the ambition of becoming pilots, and were pushed into becoming Jedi because it seemed to be the right thing for them. None of them actually wanted or ever was happy with being a Jedi.)

Most viewers were irritated on first seeing Kylo’s face without the mask: the reason for that being that his looks are diametrically opposite to Vader’s, he inspires trust and sympathy instead of fear. My assumption is that Ben would win the children’s confidence easily, and that his connection with them would lead to his salvation. Also, the girl he loves and whom he saw as “his” right from the beginning is someone who desires nothing more than a family, which would give both of them what they truly need - a home, and a sense and purpose in life. This would at last put an end to one of the central rules of the Jedi Code, which is that they are not supposed to marry and have families of their own. Ben Solo is the father figure the Skywalker family, and with him the whole galaxy, has been waiting for.

Carrie Fisher, whenever she was asked why she thought the saga was so loved, allegedly always answered “It’s about family.” This is perfectly true: the importance of an intact family where children can grow protected and loved is perhaps the most crucial theme of the entire story. And what makes Ben’s and Rey’s relationship so touching and inspires so many people to think and dream about them is that we instinctively feel why they fit so well: officially they impersonate Dark and Light side of the Force, but deep down they both are lost children, who desperately wish for nothing more than a home.

The technical preliminaries fit to this theory, too - George Lucas is father or three adopted children himself, and he sold the rights to the third trilogy of the saga to Disney, a production firm that knows like no other how to tell family stories and happy endings.

Narratively, it would close the circle with the other third chapters of the saga, which also deal with a return, a reckoning: after the revenge of the Sith and the return of the Jedi, now it would be time for the ones who are neither one nor the other to have a chance.

I am quite certain Ben and Rey two are meant to be together, but not on their own. Their task is to start another Skywalker story, one that is about love and not power. Ben and Rey are the beginning of the new Skywalker family, one to which everyone is invited, boy or girl, from a good family or poor and abandoned, Force-sensitive or not; the Canto Bight children are only the beginning. The “Reylo” love story so many fans are imagining these days is, in my opinion, a red herring just as Rey’s family background was in TFA, when after all of the speculating and fantasizing whose child she was, she turned out to be an absolute nobody. Her name was a dead giveaway, by the way - “Rei” in Japanese means “zero”. I know more than one Japanese manga or anime where the protagonist is named Rei which hints at her not having a belonging or family, and having to find her place in life through her own abilities and the friends she makes.

Ben’s name makes things clear, too: he bears the name Obi-Wan assumed while he was in exile; Obi-Wan / Ben was a Jedi, a mentor and a father figure, so now it’s up to Ben Solo to pick up this task.

The relationship between Ben and Rey will not lead to a grand romance but to their “place in all this”: as mother and father. The authors are drawing wool over our eyes to keep up the suspense and make us imagine all sorts of romantic outcomes, or terrible retaliations in store for Kylo / Ben, instead of the obvious truth staring in our faces.

Anakin never found another home after he had to leave his mother on Tatooine. His marriage to Padmé was secret, so they could never share a home together and present themselves in public as husband and wife. His children never knew him the way he was; and later they didn’t talk to anyone about him, Ben learned only at age 23 that the infamous Darth Vader was actually his grandfather. Luke had forgiven him and called him “father”, but even he didn’t accept the truth of his heritage, he tried to amend for the evil his father had done, but never learned about the good man he had once been. As for Leia, who had been imprisoned and tortured by him, she probably never wanted to waste a thought on him.

But Ben, who is Anakin’s reincarnation, reinstalled his place in the family the moment he called him “grandfather” in TFA. And if he manages to have a family in the end, Anakin, too will at last have come home again.

This is what I think the scene at the ending of TLJ is anticipating: we see the Force-sensitive boy sweeping the platform in front of the stables and then dreaming about being a Jedi, lifting the handle of the broom which in the starlight begins to gleam like it was a light sabre. The platform recalls a stage, and the little boy is not dreaming but, effectively, playacting.

Message received: free the stage, it’s time for us - the galaxy’s children.

Yet another SW AU idea that no one asked for

So.. this thing that started from a prompt that no one asked for has spawned a part 2 and ended up as part of prompt fics and is now becoming a Thing (thanks to kind commentors on AO3 and ffnet).

Base premise is Anakin gets spooked and runs off on his own after the Trade Federation Blockade battle on TPM, before Qui Gon’s funeral but right after Obi Wan got Yoda’s ‘permission’ to train Anakin. (There was a lot of communication crashes that day that ended up saving gffa)

I’ve been exploring the idea and trying to see if it’ll work or not... The One Where Anakin Grows Outside The Order is something done often and yet I’ve never really found a fic or even an outline that I really liked, enough to think that maybe I just don’t like non-Jedi Ani AUs. (And the few that I did find have all been dead for 3+ years) I also like lightsaber wielding master swordsman Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker a little too much to entertain the notion where he doesn’t get that.

...And now I’m thinking about it. (<- hypocrite)

So here are some of the ideas that came up.

Plot point #1: Obi-Wan’s reaction.

This would be two-fold: Obi-Wan’s reaction to finding Anakin had run off, and then his reaction to discovering why that happened. He’d be a bit of a mess, because now he can’t even fulfill Qui-Gon’s dying wish. I don’t think he would leave the Order, but he would still try to find Anakin whenever he has the time. Obi-Wan would be resentful at Qui-Gon for making him do this and Anakin for making this even more difficult, but also a little worried because the Sith problem is still a thing. The Council wouldn’t be very supportive of this little sidequest young Obi-Wan took for himself and I imagine Obi-Wan himself would eventually... let go and move on with his life.

Positive change: Obi-Wan can address his grief without accidentally hurting any Chosen One child prodigy who needs help dealing with a host of trauma of his own. And the Council isn’t breathing down on Obi-Wan’s neck so that’s a bonus too.

Negative change: Without Anakin to constantly shake things up, Obi-Wan would be more of a stuck-up than he canonically is. On the other hand, he isn’t that much better at not being a prick in AotC and seems to only get better by the time of TCW and RotS, so maybe there isn’t that much of a difference. (This is my opinion though...)

Plot point #2: Padme’s reaction

This was more interesting to speculate, because Padme would have quickly realized Anakin disappeared and she’d want to know why. And the Jedi would tell her some certain point of view truths but she wouldn’t be satisfied with it. I imagine this would affect her relationship with the Jedi, possibly even with Obi-Wan. Thinking about that meta post about how Padme’s faith in the Jedi as the ultimate force of good is getting shaky in TPM, the Jedi losing the little boy they were supposed to be in charge of is only going to erode her trust even more.

What I can’t figure out though, is how Padme would react when she and Anakin meet again. Would she be mad? Relieved?

Positive change: This might actually motivate Padme to send people back to Tatooine to check on Shmi, possibly even freeing her. On the other hand, Shmi’s reaction to the news that her son had disappeared is a whole new can of worms actually...

Negative change: Padme falling out with the Jedi is going to be exploited by Palpatine. *sigh*

Plot point #3: Anakin

The one you’ve been waiting for. The idea that I have is Anakin gets picked up by a Nabooian spacer. Someone who works more or less independently and spends most of the time traveling through space. (Not a smuggler though) Anyway, this spacer just assumes Ani is a boy who got orphaned during the battle and takes pity on him, without knowing who he really is.

Anakin just sort of rolls with it, and all he really wants is to get back to Tatooine, but of course things don’t work out very well and they get delayed because reasons. I haven’t figured out the details but I’m guessing it has something to do with Palpatine.

The spacer is a good person, but Anakin doesn’t get it much easier, because Palpatine, Padme and possibly even Obi-Wan might have sent people to look for him. Palpatine would definitely have gone as far as to send bounty hunters. After getting chased across the Galaxy, Anakin would become more wary and extremely distrusting towards Jedi. (Which means it’d be a challenge figuring out how to make Anakin more cautious and still... himself)

Positive change: His trauma isn’t going anywhere, and having strangers come after him is going to introduce a new set of emotional baggage. But at least he isn’t getting gas-lighted left and right.

Negative change: His Force training and bonding with Obi-Wan is going to get pushed back however long it took for them to reconnect. This is more of an issue because I really think those two work together as Force sensitive team really well. (And I want to drag in Ahsoka as well at some point :3)

(More to come, because we haven’t even touched on what Anakin’s really been up to and how everyone reconnects)

The deleted scene that summed up Obi-Wan and Anakin's arcs in AOTC.

I sorta touched on this subject in this post (although it's buried all the way down because it's the longest post I've ever written), but I was reading an earlier draft of the screenplay for Attack of the Clones from July 4th 2000, and landed on THIS scene (Scene 51):

And I'm fucking geeking out.

So Scene 51 is an older iteration of this scene:

It was re-shot and placed earlier in the film because they wanted to add Yoda to the scene, and it's intentionally placed right after the scene where Anakin talks to Palpatine to contrast how Anakin and Obi-Wan interact with their mentor figures.

Anakin gets told what he wants to hear, Obi-Wan is told what he needs to hear. In Lucas' words:

"You can see that Palpatine is sort of boosting his ego to make him feel that he's better than possibly he really is. A lot of his philosophies and things are repeated, later on, by Anakin when he gets into situations about how he should be allowed more freedom, more assignments. We contrast that with the three Jedi and show Obi-Wan's concern about the fact that his apprentice is getting ahead of himself, and he's arrogant. Obi-Wan is put down a little bit by Yoda there 'cause Yoda says that that arrogance exists in the older Jedi too, which is a way of warning Obi-Wan that he may be suffering the same hubris." - Attack of the Clones, Commentary Track 2, 2002

But here's what we lose from that original iteration... ahem... THE EXPLICIT FORESHADOWING OF OBI-WAN AND ANAKIN'S ARCS IN ATTACK OF THE CLONES!

That one conversation with Mace spells out Obi and Ani's inner journeys throughout the film.

Obi-Wan’s arc: learning to have faith in Anakin.

So a character arc is driven by that character's inner flaw. In Attack of the Clones, Obi-Wan is being a stern, overprotective, helicopter parent.

Anakin is better and much more skilled than your average Jedi and so a lot of the concerns Obi-Wan expresses aren’t necessary, he’s just nagging and questioning him pointlessly. 

Does he overcome this flaw, in the film? Yes.

Obi-Wan learns to have faith in his Padawan’s judgement and abilities. He listens to Anakin's suggestion and they take down a whole destroyer. He gives Anakin his lightsaber, trusting his apprentice's fighting skills.

Anakin’s arc: duty over emotion & controlling his arrogance.

This one's a two-parter.

On the one hand, Anakin's in love. But he's a Jedi.

At some point, his love needs to take a backseat because if it keeps distracting him, he can't do his job as a Jedi.

Does Anakin complete this part of the arc, in the film? Yes.

Anakin hesitates, he protests... but eventually, he does focus on his duty before his personal wants. Obviously, this is just a first step in a long journey, but that step has been taken.

On the other hand, Anakin is arrogant.

Because he's so skilled, Anakin will keep pushing the envelope, he'll get overconfident and cocky. He'll jump into danger, overestimating his abilities, and it usually bites him in the ass.

Like, Obi-Wan may be overly concerned at times, but he's also right on the money when it comes to this.

Does Anakin overcome this flaw? Nope!

Still angry for having to leave Padmé behind and seeing his Jedi brothers and sisters get slaughtered in the arena, Anakin rushes Dooku, thinking he can take him on by himself, and gets blasted out of the game, leaving Obi-Wan to fend for himself. When he rejoins the fray, he overestimates himself, which costs him an arm.

CONS & PROS of the reshoots in AOTC.

If we look at this scene as it used to be, it gives us a clearer idea of Obi-Wan and Anakin's dynamic, being as it helps set up and frame their arcs more explicitly.

Also, while Windu still tells Obi-Wan to get off Anakin's back in the final version, once again, in this version of the scene it's done more explicitly. Had this stayed in the film as it was, future portrayals and receptions of Mace Windu would've been more charitable. Instead of framing him as someone who "always disapproved of Anakin" we might've seen a slightly more nuanced take on his relationship with the young Jedi in future books, for instance.

But the "show don't tell" saying in screenwriting and filmmaking is a classic. And in this case, while George removed a few lines that told us this arc, he added a few moments in the film to show it to the audience. Among other things:

Obi-Wan and Anakin's elevator scene. Originally, this wasn't in the film. George decided to insert it to establish that, on a normal day, Obi-Wan and Anakin have a pretty good symbiotic relationship. But Anakin meeting Padmé for the first time in 10 years is a catalyst event that makes Anakin act more petulant and arrogant than usual, which in turn makes Obi-Wan more stern. (the argument could be made that this would be more efficient if we were shown the "nest of Gundarks" incident, rather than told about it, but hey)

On Geonosis, when Obi-Wan compliments Anakin for successfully taking down a Core Ship, that moment was added during reshoots.

More importantly, the whole "put the ship down" interaction was drastically changed.

Originally, it was shorter, and the conflict in that scene wasn't as strong. It originally felt as simply Obi-Wan being a stickler as usual and Anakin pulling another one of his tantrums, without realizing that "dude, Padmé's fine, look!"

They shot it like this, and in the editing room one of the Assistant Editors pointed this out to Lucas. There was no tension.

So George reshot it and turned this exchange into a pivotal character moment. Now, there's a whole new meaning.

Obi-Wan needs Anakin by his side, he can't face Dooku alone. If he does, he will get killed. Anakin thinks Padmé is in danger, or worse, that she's dead (and we're not robbed of this tension by immediately showing she's fine).

Obi-Wan reminds him of his job. Anakin still only listens to his own emotions.

Obi-Wan warns him. He'll be expelled form the Jedi Order; real shit. If the roles were reversed, Padmé would put her duty first too. So, moment of truth, what's it gonna be?

Anakin looks inward... and makes a decision.

Says George Lucas:

"This scene with Padmé falling out of the ship - when I originally wrote it and we cut it together - it didn’t quite work. [...] We looked at it, and one of the Assistant Editors said “you know, it really looks like something should happen and it doesn’t”. [...] So we reshot this scene, with Hayden and Ewan, and really brought out the central issue which was not in the first time I shot it, which was ‘if you go back, you will be expelled from the Jedi Order’. And that level of confrontation hadn’t been there." - Attack of the Clones, Director's Commentary, 2002

So yeah. Little something I noticed.

I love this BtS stuff.

Oh and you can read the older AOTC script here.

hi! :)

short answer: nah, i don’t

long answer: i actually don't think there's any point in the movies or TCW where it's stated that the Jedi Order has banned "romantic relationships and marriage and all that."

more (too much, my apologies) under the cut:

does that mean i think the Order was out there encouraging its members to fall in love all over the place?  nah.  and yeah, i agree that "the jedi don't encourage romantic relationships/marriage" is the more reasonable inference to make.  but i also think it's important to note that we've never actually gotten any piece of canon containing enough info about the Jedi way of life to really say we know anything at all about the Order's proscriptions/history/philosophy.

our perception of what the Jedi Order does/does not allow is built on assumptions. the ubiquity of these assumptions makes it very easy to forget that when it comes to the movies and TCW, we have almost zero information about what the Jedi Order actually encompasses, never mind their stance on romance/marriage.  for example, when we watched TPM, there was no mention at all about marriage/romance/etc being "banned," which led to a fascinating (and, retrospectively, bizarre-feeling) phenomenon where official-ish (EU) material created between TPM and AotC included plot points like Ki Adi Mundi or Thracia Cho Leem being married and/or having kids.  

then Attack of the Clones came out, and everybody started reevaluating their assumptions (by making new ones, ironically enough) - because in AotC, what we actually hear about Jedi philosophy re: relationships is really only three exchanges:

Anakin: I'd much rather dream about Padme.  Just being around her again is... intoxicating.

Obi-Wan: Be mindful of your thoughts, Anakin.  They betray you. You've made a commitment to the Jedi order, a commitment not easily broken.

which...doesn't really tell us anything about the Order's stance on romance at all. obi-wan, in this moment, can tell that anakin is so completely caught up in thinking about/desiring/grasping for padme that it's disrupting his focus, displacing what is supposed to be a commitment to service, thoughts of the bigger picture.  anakin is, for the moment, overwhelmed with personal desire, rather than the appropriate Jedi impulse towards selfless devotion to others. this is not explicitly a “relationships will break your commitment to the Jedi Order” conversation; it's a “capitulating to personal, individual desires is not in line with the philosophy we choose to serve.”

Padme: Must be difficult, having sworn your life to the Jedi...not being able to visit the places you like or do the things you like.

Anakin: Or be with the people that I love.

Padme: Are you allowed to love?  I thought that was forbidden for a Jedi.

Anakin: Attachment is forbidden.  Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life.  So, you might say that we are encouraged to love.

i've written about this one before, but again, this conversation, as well as yoda's admonition to anakin about loss in RotS, are as explicit as Jedi philosophy ever gets, in canon.  that's it.  those two conversations are as deep as it ever goes. everything else is just conjecture.

this scene makes the important distinction, though - love is not the same thing as attachment or possession.  pretty much everybody likes to take jedi philosophy in the direction of 'romantic love/marriage etc is forbidden,' but canonically, at least, it's just as possible that the philosophy is actually ‘these types of relationships are not technically forbidden, but it is very difficult to engage in them without succumbing to the desire to possess another, to attach ourselves to something that is not actually ours to cling to, to greedily cling to the things we love and so relegate our service of the Force's will to a secondary priority, and so therefore such relationships are not encouraged/common/etc.'

it's more complicated than a romance ban, essentially, is what i'm saying.  you have to get down to the heart of what a Jedi strives for, which has nothing to do with surface things like "i have a kid/i'm going to get married/i have a significant other" and everything to do with where your inner self is oriented in relation to these relationships/your priorities/your place in the Force/your chosen path of service to the Light.

Anakin: Put the ship down!

Obi-Wan: Anakin!  Don't let your personal feelings get in the way! Follow that speeder!

Anakin: Lower the ship!

Obi-Wan: I can't take Dooku alone!  I need you! If we catch him, we can end this war right now!  We have a job to do!

Anakin: I don't care! Put the ship down!

Obi-Wan: You will be expelled from the Jedi order!

Anakin: I can't leave her!

Obi-Wan: Come to your senses!  What do you think Padme would do were she in your position?

Anakin: ...she would do her duty.

again, this has nothing to do with a ban on romantic relationships; it's about anakin placing personal desires above the whole good.  the jedi order wouldn't expel anakin because he’s experienced romantic feelings for someone, but they certainly would question his suitability to walk this path if he casts aside his responsibilities to the greater good in order to fill his own personal wants.

and that's it for Attack of the Clones.  

in RotS, we get even less.

Anakin: I won't let this [dream] become real.

Padme: This baby will change our lives.  I doubt the queen will continue to allow me to serve in the senate.  If the Council discovers you're the father, you'll be expelled -

well, maybe!  for lying about this stuff for years?  definitely a possibility.  this is padme talking, though, and for all that i appreciate her, it's worth noting that she doesn't actually have much inside access to understanding the inner workings of the Jedi Order on more than a basic level.  and this isn't a basic issue.  it's also worth noting that anakin has never once tried to discuss his problem with obi-wan or get help, despite obi-wan giving him openings to do so (see TCW for that), so even anakin can't accurately say that the consequences would be so dire.  he doesn't truly know.

i like this excerpt from Rogue Planet (partway into the linked post) as an example of Jedi disciplinary proceedings (i'm aware that as this isn't part of the films, it's not Canon, but i'm not arguing that it's the truth; just that it's as likely a scenario as any other, given what little we actually know about the Jedi in practice).  The focus is not punitive, but exploratory, and restorative - what is the root of the transgression?  what is out of balance?  what inner understandings must be adjusted, and what, situationally, can be changed, to make things better?

a process like that, embarked upon in good faith, would be less likely to result in "expulsion" and more likely to result in the mutual realization or acknowledgement that the jedi path isn't where anakin skywalker belongs. fulfillment, for him, lies elsewhere, and that's okay - there are many ways to serve and do good.  the jedi order isn't the only option for someone who wants to be a hero.

Yoda: The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

Anakin: I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

Yoda: Death is a natural part of life.  Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force.  Mourn them, do not.  Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy.  The shadow of greed that is.

Yoda: What must I do, Master Yoda?

Anakin: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

again, nothing about marriage/romance/etc.  the stumbling block is attachment - which doesn't mean love.  it means inappropriate clinging to other beings, who belong to the Force and are not ours to possess; to possible futures, which are not ours to control; to relationships, which enrich our lives but should not steer us into selfish waters.

and..........that's it.  that's all we get about the Jedi Order and romance in the movies.  TCW gives us two other conversations, which i can certainly include, but generally i consider the movies as Canon, and TCW as lying somewhere outside that (yes, i'm aware that this is not the official position.  i grew up on comic books and my interest in slapping canon/not-canon labels on stuff according to any criteria but my own personal preferences is null.  blame batman.)

but anyway, TCW:

Anakin: You didn't stay to help her?

Obi-Wan: That would have been...problematic.  My duty as a Jedi demanded I be elsewhere.

Anakin: Demanded?  But it's obvious you had feelings for her.  Surely that would affect your decision.

Obi-Wan: Oh, it did.  But I live by the Jedi code.

Anakin: Of course.  As Master Yoda says, "A Jedi must not form attachments."

not much more to add here that i haven't said above.  this is, again, not about surface level things like romance and marriage - it's about the deeper underpinnings of behavior, an examination of internal motives, a voluntary commitment to a way of life that prioritizes service to others over personal pursuits.

Obi-Wan: Master Yoda feels that your judgments concerning Rush Clovis are clouded.

Anakin: I believe he can't be trusted.

Obi-Wan: Yes, but there is more, isn't there? I sense a deep anger in you by my simply saying his name.

Anakin: He almost got Senator Amidala killed, and I would have been responsible.

Obi-Wan: The Senator has risked her life many times.  She's quite capable of taking care of herself.

Anakin: They had a relationship once.  I simply feel she is vulnerable to her emotions.

Obi-Wan: She is, or you?

Anakin: What are you implying?

Obi-Wan: Anakin, I understand to a degree what is going on.  You've met Satine.  You know I once harbored feelings for her.  It's not that we're not allowed to have these feelings.  It's natural.

Anakin: Senator Amidala and I are simply friends.

Obi-Wan: And friends you must remain.  As a Jedi, it is essential you make the right choice, Anakin, for the Order.

again - obi-wan flat out says "it's not that we're not allowed to have these feelings; it's natural."  the real problem isn't anakin's romantic feelings, it's his "clouded judgement," it's anakin being ruled by his emotions, overruled by them; it's him beating clovis to within an inch of his life and trashing padme's apartment; it's anakin, ruled by attachment/jealousy/greed, saying stuff to padme like, "as your husband, i demand that you tell the chancellor you are stepping down [from your job, from the duties of a career to which you've devoted your whole life]." that's the problem.

obi-wan says that “as a jedi” it’s essential that anakin make the right choice. but anakin doesn’t have to be a jedi, if he finds that his true path is taking him elsewhere.  that point has been addressed with him (in the expanded universe, at least) several times, at least twice directly by obi-wan (and again, yes, it’s not in the films, so i’m not going to argue that it’s Truth, but if we’re going to make assumptions about what the Jedi allow/don’t allow based on no explicit canon evidence, i feel comfortable making a few inferences using expanded universe material *shrugs*.)

so, in response to the question "do i think it’s wrong for the order to ban marriage etc" - the answer is first that a) i don't think we have concrete, irrefutable canon evidence that they do, and b) if they did (which, yes, despite the entire above essay, i do feel it's a reasonable inference that the jedi at least discourage these kinds of attachments) i don’t think it’s wrong at all.  the jedi order is a culture, with its own history, values, and sacred philosophy.  “jedi” isn’t just a synonym for "superhero."  there are lots of ways to do good in the world and help people, but jedi culture is more that just that - it's a way of life, a way of thinking, living, and dying which extends far beyond the identity "guardian of peace and justice in the Republic."  

and this means that jedi culture is not for everybody.

plenty of real life organizations/cultures/religions require certain things of their members.  belongers, or believers, give of themselves willingly, voluntarily choosing to pursue a certain way of life or to sacrifice certain things, because those choices are in accordance with their values.  the jedi are the same, and just as entitled to their own internal structures.  the fact that one of the things a jedi might choose to eschew is engagement in romantic attachments isn't really that odd - and it isn't really a problem, given that anyone can leave the Order at will.  like i said before, there are multiple instances in the expanded universe of obi-wan or someone else reminding us of this, sometimes directly to anakin's face - the jedi are not jailors, and they aren't wandering around the universe trying to make everyone conform to their way of life, telling people who don't belong to their Order that romantic relationships are dangerous and the jedi way is the only way to be a good person/do good deeds.  the jedi are aware that their choices are their own, that they are just one of a billion different galactic belief systems, that not all good-doers in the world were meant to walk their particular path.

anakin skywalker is one of those good-doers.  he isn't truly jedi, because being jedi doesn't mean being able to use the Force and swing a sword around; it means living your life according to a certain set of values and philosophical/cultural mandates.  anakin, who ultimately does not believe and cannot accept many of those 'pillars of faith,' is a hero, certainly, but he is not a jedi.  and there's nothing wrong with that - or at least there wouldn't have been, if anakin had been able to accept this and use his new self-understanding to make slightly better decisions.  

if he'd been able to do that - if he'd accepted that where he really wanted to be was with a lover, with a child, still doing good but in his own way - then it would have been wrong, if the Order had tried to force him to stay.  but instead, anakin never asked to leave.  he couldn’t let go of the things he feared to lose, even when those things were bad for him, even when they made him unhappy.

if only he'd been able to push through that dilemma, and ask for guidance, so many things would have been different.

your posts about the comics just reminded me of something that's been at the back of my head for a while: how do you view anakin's and obi-wan's relationship as padawan and master? i've seen people argue that it holds abusive elements since obi-wan (as an extension of the jedi council) doesn't help anakin with his trauma (or plays a part in fortifying it? possibly by things like making him call him master) and brushes his worries about the nightmares aside in aotc. (1/2)

i’m not really convinced by the latter since the movie doesn’t show any context for it, but i’d like to hear your thoughts about it. i’m really not prone to putting any blame on obi-wan personally or especially but he’s my favourite character and i tend to overlook his flaws :D (2/2)

THIS IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE LONG, sorry not sorry etc.  :D  I’m going to stick to a gen interpretation on them in this post (and, as always, I have no problem with people who are squicked by them as a pairing for whatever reasons!) and, while I haven’t read much at all in this line of commentary (nor do I care to), I have thoughts on the points you mentioned!During Attack of the Clones, our establishing shot of them, the one that tells us who these characters are now and how they relate to each other, ten years down the road from The Phantom Menace, is one of two people teasing each other and making each other laugh.  Obi-Wan sees that Anakin is nervous and so he makes a joke that’s very obviously something he wouldn’t misremember as a way to jolt Anakin out of his spiraling thoughts, he puts the weight of the joke on himself.  When they’re talking with Padme, Anakin is behaving like an absolute brat, he’s overstepping their authority, he’s promising things that aren’t theirs to promise, he’s acting up and actively disrespecting his teacher to impress someone rather than actually thinking things through.  And Obi-Wan doesn’t dress him down, he pretty much just gives him a WE WILL TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE CAR (TM @forcearama) response.We see that Anakin is getting ahead of himself–he says he can sense everything that’s going on in Padme’s bedroom, except he doesn’t.  The assassin centipedes are already crawling around and it’s not until a bit later that Anakin senses them.  The whole point is that Anakin is working himself into a state in an attempt to impress Padme and Obi-Wan is telling him to get ahold of himself–and then, afterwards, leans in and smiles, telling Anakin (who is upset that Padme doesn’t seem to see him in the same way he sees her), “She was pleased to see us.” to cheer Anakin up.We see, during the Obi-Wan & Anakin comic that Anakin is absolutely smitten with Obi-Wan, HE’S THE BEST is literally a thing Anakin says this close to having actual stars in his eyes.  Obi-Wan listens to Anakin, he takes his upcoming decision seriously, makes it clear that he’ll respect Anakin’s choice whichever way, even as he continues to help guide him.  We see that Obi-Wan is dedicated enough to Anakin that he would leave the Jedi Order with Anakin, if that’s what was necessary.  We see even through The Clone Wars that Obi-Wan gives Anakin his space, lets him be as independent as he can, but that Anakin still wants to go running to him, still calls him Master half of the time, showing us just how much Anakin still values that guidance, still values Obi-Wan’s presence in his life.

Back to Attack of the Clones, Anakin tells Obi-Wan NOTHING of his dreams other than that he’s having dreams.  He doesn’t say if they’re bad dreams (if they even were at this point, Anakin doesn’t look panicked, just wistful and like he misses her–the AOTC novelization said they were nightmares, but that was never from George), and Obi-Wan’s tone and face are deeply caring.  If this were any other situation, his advice would be right, especially for someone who is on the cusp of Knighthood, who would have entirely valid reasons to be dreaming things that he has issues with when he’s about to take a bit step forward in his independence.  It would really make sense if Obi-Wan was speaking from a place about his own dreams of Qui-Gon, which did pass in time, as they’re meant to.Further, we don’t have any context for what the Jedi did or didn’t do in regards to Anakin’s trauma.  We don’t even know when they found out about Anakin’s past, because we never see Qui-Gon tell them where Anakin came from (and Obi-Wan wasn’t there and he never mentions it later, despite that it would be a really good thing to bring up for why this is a bad idea of Qui-Gon’s, to try to get Anakin to be a Jedi) and nothing they say says they for sure knew.  And Anakin himself likely wouldn’t speak up about it, fearing that it would damage his chances in the eyes of his new caretakers–whether he’s right or not about that (and that’s a separate discussion, whether Anakin was a good fit for being a Jedi or not, it doesn’t make him bad if he’s not, just that it’s not the right path for him personally).Here’s the thing, though:  We see some pretty clear examples that Anakin refuses help.  Even setting aside the times in Legends where Obi-Wan did try to talk to him about it, we see Padme in Revenge of the Sith say that they should talk to Obi-Wan about this and Anakin shuts it down hard.  We see that he knows he shouldn’t want more, but he does and it’s because he does not want to change his mindset.  Someone who does not want to talk about these things (even with Padme! he doesn’t even seem to want to talk about the future of their baby, he avoids the subject at every turn, either not answering or changing topics, she is the one making plans) and someone who doesn’t think their mindset is wrong is a lot less likely to get help out of therapy (fandom’s often go-to suggestion for What Anakin Skywalker Needed) than someone who wants to change.  And I have tried getting people into therapy who don’t want to be there and it is not some magical fix it.  It only helps if you want it to help.Also as a side-note, nowhere in Immovable Objects of Star Wars History can I find an example of Anakin calling a slave owner “Master”.  That’s come up a few times in Legends (because people just automatically assume all slavery must follow a 1:1 relationship with US history’s chattel slavery) but never in canon itself as far as I’ve seen.  Anakin expresses no distaste at calling someone “Master” as any sort of indication that it has any negative associations. Is it something fans can play with?  Obviously!  And I have issues with the way slavery is presented in TPM, don’t get me wrong.  But “Master” is only ever used in the sense of a person with a highly developed skill/set of skills.  (eta: To clarify, because I worry some people need it, that does not negate that it was traumatic for Anakin or an absolutely horrifying thing, especially for a child!  But it’s still presented/not presented in specific ways.)But I’m getting side-tracked away from Obi-Wan and Anakin’s relationship.  Yes, they have conflict and issues, but both AOTC and ROTS set up their first scenes as ones that show us how much these two like each other, how much they care about each other, how well they work together.  Obi-Wan and Anakin laughing in the elevator, the kind words Obi-Wan has for him.  Obi-Wan and Anakin fighting together above Coruscant, their fighters MOVE IN SYNC with each other, Anakin refuses to leave Obi-Wan twice in the first half hour, Obi-Wan smiles at him, they bicker like old friends, they have their own special hand-signals.  The entire emotional climax is on their fight, which wouldn’t have any meaning if they didn’t love each other.  It wouldn’t mean anything if their relationship was awful and abusive and terrible in the first place.I’m not saying that Obi-Wan and Anakin’s relationship was perfect.  I do think Obi-Wan’s faith and belief in Anakin blinded him to the true depth of the cracks in his foundation–”He will not let me down.  He never has,” Obi-Wan says, absolutely believing this.  He believes in Anakin’s ability to come through, he shows that every time he puts his life in Anakin’s hands, trusts him to be there when Obi-Wan needs him to show up, that Anakin would never turn to the dark side, because he sees such good and brilliance and wonderfulness in Anakin.  He loves Anakin so much that he cannot see the truth about him.Anakin, in turn, cannot trust what Obi-Wan gives him, he cannot accept that Obi-Wan’s care and love for him are true, unless Obi-Wan’s practically shouting it from the rooftops.  Anakin is a bucket with a hole in the bottom, all that love and praise fills him up and then drains out again by the next day, so he needs more.  Even Padme constantly pouring love into him wasn’t enough to keep Anakin from believing that she’d betrayed him and turned on him, nothing was ever going to be enough for Anakin, and the war emotionally ground them all down and was designed to put strain on their relationship (literally on their relationship because Palpatine wanted Anakin’s relationships with both Obi-Wan and Padme brittle, because he had to whittle down those relationships or Anakin would never fall).But the whole reason we’re invested in it is because they loved each other, because they were so good together.  Because no one else could have done as well as Obi-Wan did with Anakin (I WILL FIGHT THE INTERNET ON THIS), Anakin would never have loved anyone as much as he loved Obi-Wan.  And what we do see of them in canon is littered with Obi-Wan thinking of Anakin and doing kind things for him, checking in on him, offering him support, telling Anakin that he’s proud of him, not taking another Padawan because his previous one still needs him.No relationship in Star Wars is perfect, it wouldn’t be an interesting story without conflict!  They make mistakes, they’re human, and often times they’re in a war that leaves them with little emotional reserves or they’re manipulated into positions where they have to make really shit choices.But they were so good together and there’s dozens of little moments to show the genuine care there, how genuinely good they were for each other, how they made each other better.