unsundered

"My people. My brothers. …My friends. Stay strong. Keep the faith. At duty's end, we will meet again. We will. We will.”

More of these: Ancient edition! This is the first time I get to look at all of them together and I really like it. It's like they're looking out their windows and doing their little things.

(For those wondering where Lahabrea's birds are, look behind him, there's a big one there)

So my friend is in the post patch for ARR

Like, baby sprout hasn't even gotten to the bloody banquet yet

Here's the Ascians so far, according to her:

Blahblahbrea

Nabs/Nabi

and

Oldbus

OLDBUS

I'm saving this for posterity for when she gets to the Panda raids one day

I am Elidibus! And it is my duty to steer mankind and the very star upon their true course. This I swore to...to someone.

We spoke, and I swore...what? What did I...?

An elidibus piece I made for an event back in august, went a bit experimental on this one bc I wanted to capture that crystal/glass-like look to reflect the crystal tower where his trial takes place

I think i rushed this piece a lot bc i needed to move onto other things i wanted to sell for the booth and there were some ideas i had to discard during the wip stage but overall i'm glad i got to do a little tribute to my favorite unsundered :')

Most Punchable Ascian (Onscreen)

Note: this poll contains the Ascians who have appeared in person as part of either MSQ or (in one case) a raid series. The remaining Ascians can be found here.

Yeah. Thats Definitely Azem.

The Unsundered

Available as a print on my shop!

The Unsundered and Tempering

There's apparently some kinda post going around ruffling jimmies about the Ascians versus the Ancients, with extreme assumptions about a society we see precious little of ourselves in game and mostly get informed of by people still grieving it millennia later.

Most of them antagonists, that like many other antagonists and allies, folks seem to want to take at face value for a lot of what they say, while often ignoring what they do and how, while speaking.

This is something I have noticed among fandom and roleplayers for decades, so it's nothing new, but there's a lot of times the text of any situation is making it clear that even if a character isn't outright lying--even thinks they are being "honest"--that is not necessarily the case.

It also comes back to making sure one is using all the available information--goodness knows I've made a fool of myself before by missing scenes or text that did explain someone's position on lore and characters!

Regardless of how one feels about certain plot points, storylines, or characters, they all inform each other in canon. Different characters say different things at different times in different company. A scene from two expansions ago may inform a new patch cutscene. Actions may contradict words. It all works together.

For an example, since it's come up elsewhere, I've had doubts about how Tempered the Unsundered were from the moment Emet-Selch claimed it, due to one of the last scenes in ARR, cutscene #5 in "Before the Dawn" where we see Lahabrea and Elidibus speak just before Urianger arrives in response to the Emissary's request for a meeting:

Lahabrea: The earth is fertile, and the seeds well sown. By my will, they shall reap salvation unlike any the world has known. Elidibus: By His will. Lahabrea: …By His will.

The Ascians in ARR and HW spend a lot of time telling the WoL about their One True God. Here though, in a moment of privacy before the Archon's arrival, Elidibus has to remind Lahabrea to check his ego as his actions are for Zodiark, not himself.

This is an early indication, alongside Nabriales's actions in the previous patch quests, that not everyone's on the same page in regards to the Ascian agenda. Nor is Zodiark's hold on each red mask absolute--even the ones initially at His summoning.

EDIT: Not to mention Fandaniel's actions in their entirety in Shadowbringers and Endwalker; killing one's god to usher in the end of the world is not the act of a tempered man!

Further doubt is placed on Emet-Selch's claim by Tiamat. We get more of her situation in the Shadowbringers patches, in the "Righteous Indignation" cutscene:

Tiamat: Recall, mortals, that it was I who did first summon my beloved, praying with all my being to bring him forth. You who contend with eikons cannot well be ignorant of the consequence. Alphinaud: …You too were exposed to his influence. That you are yet in possession of your own will is testament to the indomitable strength of your soul. Alphinaud: But were you to meet with Bahamut again, you fear you might succumb. Tiamat: Indeed. Ask the dragonslayer, and he will tell thee the power we of the first brood wield. Were I to lose myself to the eikon's influence, all would pay the price. Tiamat: But it is of little matter. For even had I the strength to resist, I yet lack the strength to break my shackles. This prison shall be my tomb. Alisaie: On the matter of Bahamut's influence, at least, I believe we can be of some assistance. Alisaie: If you're afraid of being enthralled, don't be─we have a cure. And while we've never tried it on one such as you, its basic principles are universal. Tiamat: Speakest thou in earnest? Alphinaud: There is no future for those bound to the past. Alphinaud: That you committed a terrible sin, I do not dispute. But if you feel remorse, you may yet make amends. We offer you that chance. Take it, or you will forever remain a prisoner, not of these cruel shackles, but of your own guilt. Tiamat: A chance to make amends… To lay Bahamut's memory to rest… Tiamat: When our own star faced annihilation, Hydaelyn granted us sanctuary. And now your foes would bring about Her destruction. This I cannot allow. For the debt I owe to Hydaelyn, and to all who have suffered for my sins…I shall fight with you, children of man.

Tiamat is a victim of the purposefully corrupted summoning magic the Ascians distributed. Yet she is not entirely enthralled by the Bahamut she summoned; she fears she would be if she were exposed further to a primal. Tiamat, as a Great Wyrm of the First Brood, is more akin in her aetheric composition to the Unsundered than most others on Hydaelyn. She knows she is influenced by the primal she summoned, and part of her remaining bound is to protect herself and the world from that consequence.

And then she chooses the cure and to move forward with her life, when given the option. As do other enthralled figures among the tribes when granted the option.

While there wasn't yet a cure when still fighting the Unsundered, entreaties to end their crusade and move forward fell on deaf ears--but I doubt very much it was due to Zodiark's influence entirely, and more their own stubborness after having clung to this course for ages.

The first cutscene of "Unto the Heavens" in Endwalker presents finally the intersection of original creation magic and modern summoning, as preparations are made to board the Ragnarok:

Livingway: You've done a fine job of readying the Ragnarok, but for it to take flight, we'll of course need the power of the Mothercrystal. Livingway: Given its immense size, however, transporting it would be an absolute logistical nightmare. Not to mention we'd need to shatter it into tiny shards for feeding to the engines. Livingway: But a brilliant idea came to me: we convert the crystal's energy into forms that can transport themselves! Urianger: Thou wouldst employ summoning…or should I say its precursor─creation magicks. Thancred: Care to explain for our benefit? Urianger: As you may have witnessed at Bestways Burrow, the Loporrits are capable of creation magicks, which they use to shape the moon's environment. Urianger: Yet simple though they make it seem, 'tis a highly advanced and exacting art. To perform it correctly requireth that the wielder holdeth the object in his mind's eye in clearest detail. Alphinaud: Hence the ancients' meticulous management of concepts. Urianger: Drawing upon this art, the Ascians conceived of summoning as we know it. Urianger: A derivative that replaceth the complexity of concepts with the simplicity of zealotry to make manifest a creation. Y'shtola: I see… By combining the Loporrits' magicks and the tribes' faith, we convert the Mothercrystal into primals of purer form and greater obedience. Y'shtola: Summoning as it was intended, one might say. Livingway: Indeed, indeed! Livingway: While Hydaelyn gave us the ability to use creation magicks, She forbade us from using it to make anything possessed of a soul─or similar. Livingway: She didn't say anything about fulfilling the desires of others, though. So! Borrowing our friends' faith, we'll create deities using the Mothercrystal's power, and send them to the Ragnarok! Alisaie: Am I the only one here concerned about the risk of being turned into a tempered minion? Livingway: Oh, right, I was getting to that… From what I've read in Sharlayan tomes, it appears the Ascians incorporated an additional nasty element into their summoning method: the fervent desire to assimilate others into one's belief. Livingway: Beings thus created are instilled with the selfsame desire, and use their powers to enthrall people─starting with the summoner. Livingway: In contrast, our creation magicks─the original and the best, accept no substitutes─don't incorporate any of that rubbish, so there's no risk of tempering. I mean, if the being was on the scale of Zodiark, you might feel a little “tug”…but I think we'll be safe enough.

From what we get here, summoning is quite obviously an offshoot of the original creation energies of the Ancients, but twisted by the thinness of the sundered mortals' aether and using faith and collected aether as a substitute. The tempering part was a later, intentional addition, possibly after the Unsundered had opportunity to examine the effect of Zodiark's summoning on themselves and extrapolating that.

Now, is some of this likely retconning to explain discrepancies in how characters acted and how tempering has been used? Probably! There was supposedly a rewrite of the main Ascian/Hydaelyn/Zodiark storyline, inherited from 1.0, which Stormblood allowed the time and consideration going forward on how they wanted to resolve this long arc. There's a lot in ARR and HW that has been recontextualized to fit, though some things still stand out a bit oddly; they did as good a job as they could, especially given the many years and writers involved.

But from the more recent writings, the intention is not to excuse the Unsundereds' actions with "they were tempered." And the final proof comes from Emet-Selch in Ultima Thule in cutscene #4 of "You Are Not Alone", having been through the preliminary wash cycle of the Lifestream long enough to have had various enchantments removed from him, while yet retaining his self before that too is washed out before reincarnation:

Alisaie: You're leaving!? Emet-Selch: Of course. The encore is finished, and I will not suffer myself to live again by Hydaelyn's magick. Emet-Selch: But more than that, the future you seek is not the past we loved. That is why we fought. And why I lost. Emet-Selch: But though you defeated me, my ideals are inviolate. Invincible. Emet-Selch: Spare me your pity. I have no use for it. If you would do something for me─save our star. Emet-Selch: See this tale to a triumphant conclusion, and with elation in your hearts, bid the final curtain fall. Emet-Selch: Only then may it rise again and a new tale begin─with new parts for all to play.

Through Shadowbringers, Emet-Selch claimed to want to cooperate with the Scions, while only giving bits and pieces of carefully considered information, and moving the goal posts whenever they did prove to him they were able to pass his tests and meet his expectations. It is not until this moment where, his duty to fight finished and the fate of his beloved world in any form at stake, that he is truly honest about what he did and why.

(I may also have an analysis WIP about comparing him and The Sandman's Morpheus and that stubborn refusal to change his mind and ideals, but it's slow going)

So while we mostly do have to go by what characters say, directly to WoL or to other characters in other scenes, each conversation cannot be taken in a vacuum; it is taken into account with their other conversations, with their actions, with other characters' input. And sometimes, the writers change direction, and new information will overwrite the old, even as it builds off of it.

The game is not consistent about Tempering and Summoning, though the double acts of Shadowbringers and Endwalker's story tries to clean that up. I just seriously doubt, from all the evidence, that the Unsundered were as entirely under Zodiark's thumb as say, one of Ifrit's over-hammered thralls and therefore not responsible for their choice and actions, the plans they made and came up with and clung to in stubborn guilt and grief and rage for so long they couldn't do anything else, even when presented proof of other options and chances to change or move forward.

Because another thing ShB and EW have shown us in both MSQ and in the Pandaemonium storyline, is who these men were, to become the Ascians we know, and how their own beliefs shaped them individually when faced with such loss--and how in each case, those past, pre-Zodiark selves would look at the eldritch beings they became by the Seventh era, and be horrified. Not because of any god's influence, but what they were capable of on their own.

...Well OK, Lahabrea already had a pretty good idea of what kind of monster he was capable of becoming. He also chose the worst way to handle it, and never seemed to learn from that. Elidibus and Emet-Selch though, while adamant in their beliefs, were also warped by what they chose to do and be, to where Elidibus even refused to remember his past to avoid the pain, tunneling into his duty with no wavering. Only Emet-Selch chose to remember, wallowing in it, acknowledging the monstrosity of his actions...and choosing to commit them anyway.

EDIT ADDITION: Relevant lore info directly from Banri Oda on Tempering and many other things.

So... I a bit forgot to share with you that I'll be taking part in a market in june so I'm trying my best to make some merch that will be more then simple postcard (but there will be postcards too OwO) I'll try my bext with HSR art I made lately and now it's FFXIV turn. I have wonderful series with grapes and my dear ancients but... They all made in traditional art soooo.... I need to redraw them as digital. Here the first one - Emet-Selch.

Thinking about the time I teleported to Lakeland wearing my Ascian glam, unexpectedly loaded into the middle of an fc event with 2 groups of warriors about to face off against each other, and made everyone do a double take

Some Thoughts on Elidibus (and Why We May See Him Again)…

I know it’s technically end of the embargo, so I’ll spoiler tag just in case, but phew…let’s talk about Elidibus' character arc and that ending in Pandæmonium, eh?

I admit that as far as the unsundered went, Emet-Selch has always been my favorite. But boy howdy did Pandæmonium shoot Elidibus to the top spot for a tie.

One of the things I noticed that the raid series as a whole did beautifully was show just how close Elidibus and (our) Azem was in the past. We like to think that the Emet-Hyth-Azem trio was the strongest relationship (and it probably was), but Pandæmonium hints that Elidibus was probably just as close to Azem, very similarly like G’raha Tia is with the WoL. Elidibus calls Azem “his dear friend”, just like Emet-Selch, and from what we can gather (he being the 13th seat and Azem being the 14th), they worked closely together. Elidibus mentions in a side comment that Azem would take over his duties while he was in Pandæmonium, and it was the both of them who initially started the investigation.

I used to wonder why the devs compared G’raha to Elidibus, when in the final showdown in Shadowbringers, I didn’t really see the connection. But now that we see the full picture, it’s a lot more clear. Emet-Selch mentions in “Ere Our Curtain Falls” that Elidibus really looked up to the Convocation members. But in that same story, we see Elidibus pondering “Azem’s fresh perspective on things”, much to Emet’s chagrin. Lahabrea even makes a side comment in Pandæmonium about Azem’s influence on Elidibus, and just like G’raha is inspired by the WoL, Elidibus is inspired by Azem.

But there’s another interesting tidbit that may be a bit of a stretch, I admit, but I can’t help but wonder all the same (and it relates to our influence on him.)

I think Elidibus’ journey with us in Pandæmonium inspired him to leave Zodiark.

We know that the Convocation (aside from Azem) was very big on observing. Let things happen naturally and all that. In the start of Pandæmonium, Elidibus is clear on investigating things like a typical Convocation member would. But after seeing the Warrior of Light and Erichthonios’ devotion to rescuing the other warders, and how successful they were at it, Elidibus’ tune begins to change. In our last conversation in the Aetherial Sea, we see Elidibus mention that seeing the Warrior of Light “cross this vast expanse” simply due to being devoted to their allies was something he could now understand.

Did the devotion he saw in us (and even Erichthonios) become the catalyst that made him leave Zodiark? It’s hard to say, but he mentions in the Crystal Tower that he left Zodiark to return to his people because they were disagreeing and he was needed. He wasn’t content to sit back and observe like he was supposed to. Instead, he left his spot as Zodiark’s heart and jumped back into the chaos (much like Azem/WoL would’ve done.)

Speaking of Zodiark, Pandæmonium makes a clear point just who was the real Elidibus. Throughout the raid series, despite revealing himself as Elidibus, he is called "Themis". Even after the raid's conclusion, his true name remains. Yet throughout ARR-Endwalker, he retains his title.

In "Ere Our Curtain Falls", Emet-Selch mentions that the change in Elidibus' personality and being started after he separated from Zodiark.

One of the most common questions that has come up over the years as who the Ascians are (and what motivated them) is, "Are they villains? Heroes? Or a bit of both?" Depending on who you ask, you'll get a different answer, but I think Pandæmonium revealed a tragedy about Elidibus. While Emet-Selch and Lahabrea made clear and concise choices (with some tempering from Zodiark, but as the Loporrits said, it was more of a gentle tug than full-blown mind control), Elidibus' was more...muddled. At the time of the sundering, he was essentially a primal. His actions and motivations are guided by the hopes and prayers of the people. Were the decisions he made as an Ascian his choice? And if they were, how much influence did being a primal have on those choices?

We often compare Ysayle/Shiva to Elidibus in explaining becoming a human primal, but Ysayle's Shiva was based on her choices and hopes. Elidibus' was based on an entire people. And as Erichthonios says in the Aetherial Sea, "Themis would never have wanted to be your enemy." Words in a story matter - and I can't help but wonder if this was the writer's way of saying that had Elidibus not had that primal influence, perhaps he wouldn't have gone down the Ascian road.

All that is to say, Pandæmonium showed us the real Elidibus. Not the primal, not the Ascian, but Themis - the young prodigy who looked up to heroes and wanted to be one himself (cough cough G'raha Tia).

And so that leaves us with a final point - what was up with that ending?

One of the things Elidibus mentions in both Seat of Sacrifice and in Pandæmonium Circle 11 is immortality. I've seen some mention this as well as it's a bit odd that Elidibus keeps mentioning it. "I am immortal" and "I am the emissary, and I shall never die" are sentences that have big meaning and aren't to be thrown around lightly (especially since the guy saying it is dead at this point.)

I think his talk on immortality is in regards to his soul - that despite the cycle of death and rebirth, his soul lives on. And as we see in his journey through the Aetherial Sea, his soul is still going strong. But Pandæmonium throws a curve ball at us, showing Elidibus pondering on the state of the star. The victors write history, he muses, but then he mentions the path the star is taking, almost as if he's concerned. I've heard others mention that with the sundering, the other shards tend to gravitate towards unbalance and that can cause calamities, and with Hydaelyn and Zodiark out of the picture, there's really no one to make sure things stay in place. Perhaps this is what Elidibus is thinking about? How perhaps there's something going on and the star is headed towards disaster, and as the judge who weighed the scales and kept things in balance, he felt as if something needed to be done.

I agree with a lot of folks that him "seeing the light" at the end was him being reborn. How, when, and where is, of course, a mystery, but I do think that this was him "jumping back into the fight" like Azem. He's not one to sit idle and observe like the others, and out of the unsundered, he'd be the first to skip the nap and dive right back in. But as I've said before, words in stories have meaning. And especially with game writing, because words are few and far between in these cutscenes, they carry an even bigger importance.

Why show Elidibus being "reborn" if we don't see him again?

Grant it, it could just be a poetic end where it's a story of his redemption and it's meant to make us say, "Yay! Themis is going to get a second chance and maybe be a hero this time!" But I think there's more to it.

First, seeing the light I think means more than just being reborn. It could also symbolize that he's coming back as a true-blue Warrior of Light (or at least as close as one can be now that Hydaelyn's gone.) Second, his soul was originally left in the First. Somehow, he ended back up in the Source (and we aren't sure how), but perhaps seeing the light means he's going back to the First to be reborn? With time being a bit funky between the shards, it wouldn't be impossible to see a young Themis gallivanting around the First as a hero soon. And then there's the influence of him being Zodiark's heart. Did it somehow affect his soul and the cycle of rebirth? Is he truly immortal as he's been saying and somehow, we'll see Themis pop up and say, "Surprise! I'm back!"

Time will tell and I'm sure in the coming expansions, we'll get answers. Either way, bravo on the writers for such a touching and wonderful send-off to Elidibus.

"Even should you lose all that is dear to you. Even if it should cost you your life… You bear the burden and fight on, kicking and screaming until your last breath is spent!"

Elidibus

Pocket-sized speaker

Most Huggable Ascian (Onscreen)

Note: this poll contains the Ascians who have appeared in person as part of either MSQ or (in one case) a raid series. The remaining Ascians can be found here.

Hydaelyn in Endwalker

At the risk of looking stupid online I'm going to field my perplexions about Hydaelyn that've been bothering me for months lol This post is... a little Hydaelyn critical. But I do offer that in good faith, I LOVE the character and I'm not trying to just trash her, I'm genuinely interested to hear other perspectives about it. (But please be nice, everyone is entitled to their own take)

Also this is not in response to anyone else's post. I haven't even seen any Hydaelyn posts circulating lately. I'm not vagueing anyone or trying to start drama. Just trying to sort out my own feelings about this character.

So my main takeaway from MSQ was that love is, ultimately, what saves you. That humans (including Ancients!) aren't perfect, and cannot love perfectly, but the shared love of you and others is still what saves you.

And, also, that grief is a part of life. Mistakes are a part of life. Conflict and loss happen, but they need not destroy you. Stand for doing right as best that you can, forgive yourself and keep trying, keep loving - both yourself and others.

There was an incredible amount of emphasis on not judging or hating one's enemies, about accepting the humanity in all of us and coming together, which I really loved.

There was also, of course, a huge rejection of self-sacrifice and martyrdom.

I saw all those themes in the Dark Knight quests a LOT (especially before the English translation changed so many scenes), and I assume Ishikawa was continuing that theme from Shadowbringers onward.

So again! I don't hate Hydaelyn!

But I feel like... at least in the English translation, she is still treated with excessive reverence, like a goddess, by the Scions - even ones it didn't really make sense to after her origin came out, like Y'sthola.

And at least on my first playthrough, while I like Venat a lot and love the drama of the Final Days pushing everyone into points of desperation, to their breaking points, and her decision to sunder the world definitely did ultimately help (help!) make it possible for us to defeat the Endsinger... I dunno.

To me she was still subject to the same arrogance as the rest of the Ancients. Whether her decision paid off or not, she still took into her hands the fate of the entire Star, she still made a decision that would result in millions of deaths.

And if we're going by Hydaelyn's own assertion, that each reincarnation is their own person, not just a missing piece of a whole... then to achieve her goal of a better world, she killed all the remaining Ancients except those three.

She chose to create a world where death and trauma would affect generation after generation - and she can say that it was for the greater good, for the world to survive. But that was essentially the Convocation’s justification too, in creating Zodiark and orchestrating the Rejoinings. Committing genocide to prove that genocide is wrong… is not noble.

The cutscene with her sundering the world, where the people insist they'll return to a world free of sorrow underneath a burning sky, could also NOT be how it actually happened. It had to be representational of her feelings and conclusion. Becoming Hydaelyn took coordination with her followers and planning.

At least in English, idk about the original Japanese, Hythlodaeus's shade describes the time of the Sundering as if the world wasn't in utter ruin at that point. It was beginning to heal, they had restored some natural systems, but the Ancients were short in numbers. At that point, they were done sacrificing their own people, in time they were going to sacrifice other life - plants and animals, to restore those lost brethren.

At the very least, Hythlodaeus's completely different account shows that the two sects of people post-Zodiark were viewing their sacrifice and end goal in completely different ways. Ethics aside, whether the competing goal was achievable or not… we will never know, because Venat stopped it from happening.

But I don't think either recounting has a monopoly on the truth. There was no One Truth, there were just competing needs and perspectives. And though Venat insists that unity is necessary to avert the Endsinger - she perpetuates this division. Azem refused her followers call to help summon Hydaelyn, and I think that's significant.

But I'll also acknowledge that Azem didn't manage to save the Ancients, either.

And you could argue that the Ancients were their own worst enemy. They kind of were.

Hermes was a really, really great caricature of severe, untreated Depression. And he had the powers of a god. His creations were sent to find a specific answer in the world beyond, and like their creator, they didn't have the tools to process hearing an answer other than what they were expecting. They were trapped in their own perspective. He was looking for answers in the stars, instead of in himself. Their own pain and inability to engage with emotion in a healthy way overwhelmed every encounter they had and created the very reality he so feared.

He did not use the proper channels for peer review before sending them out on their mission. Those rules, those checks and balances, that community approach to design, existed to protect the Ancients from their own power, and he deliberately acted in secret. He isolated himself from society, convinced himself his pain was something nobody could understand, made an island of himself and doubled down on his own jaded beliefs.

I don't know what kind of mental health facilities were available to the Ancients - we just don't have that information. But I do know that he was treated with patience and forgiveness by a significant number of colleagues, and his quirks weren't held against him. People did try to help and accommodate him, even if they didn't always understand. He had been promoted to a powerful position. I don't know if it's fair to blame anyone in particular, or even their society, for what happened. Because again... everyone was doing the best they could with what they had.

If anything, the problem was that literally any Ancient could have made a similar mistake in the right situation. They were ALL that powerful. Eventually chaos would happen. Sundered souls can certainly create destruction, but not on the same scale.

I don't personally agree with Hydaelyn's decision not to reach out to the Convocation. I understand being careful, and thinking through what the next step should be before acting. But there's a LOT of "maybes" in this argument:

And ultimately, it's her doing the same thing as Hermes, putting the power of judgement over an entire people in her own hands. She's assuming that she is in a unique position to decide the fate of the entire Star. It's not evil. But it's arrogant. She wasn't special among the Ancients, gifted with some unique wisdom. She was doing the best she could from her own perspective.

Plus... if half your population, and then another half again are about to sacrifice themselves... what have you got to lose by outing Hermes and/or trying to work with the Convocation to avert that loss of life? We don't have all the details, I'm willing to accept that there were circumstances that made it impossible, or at least made Venat decide against trying it. But even so. What did you have to lose leading up to the summoning of Zodiark? There was already panic and destruction at that point.

Hydaelyn sacrificed a lot of people to accomplish her goals. She made a goddess of herself and manipulated people like Minfilia on that basis. She killed so many children and stole so many lives even just by reincarnating Minfilia over and over on the First. She misrepresents the nature of the Ascians to the WoL, keeps secrets, and essentially charges you with being a crusader in her Holy War.

It's Emet- Selch who tries to bridge the gap. Not Hydaelyn. It's him who's willing to consider trying to achieve his goals without bloodshed, if you, the WoL, are strong enough. He says this to himself, out of anyone else's hearing. There's no reason for it to be a lie.

And just before Mt. Gulg, you can see Emet starting to question his beliefs about humanity because of the WoL's accomplishments. Hydaelyn has nothing to do with that. It's all you. And Emet succumbs to his own weaknesses too, so we never get to know what that might have happened if you'd had more time with him. He's not better than her.

But I think it's significant that he's the one who reaches out. Who's willing to consider a compromise at all.

In war you make sacrifices, I get that. But she was not more heroic, somehow, than the Ascians. Both sides were doing terrible things and denying the agency of mortals in order to achieve their ideal world.

So to me... she was not a benevolent incomprehensibly wise mother figure. Much like in real life we go from being kids who trust our moms implicitly, to adults who realize our mother was human and made mistakes, I think we’re supposed to recognize that Hydaelyn didn't do everything right and its our job to carry the future forward for subsequent generations, to learn from what came before, and hope that our own children do the same and forgive us for our own mistakes.

I think its very important to note that the WoL is just as much the Convocation's creation as Hydaelyn's. Without being rejoined as many times as they were, the WoL wouldn’t have survived. She saves you from the Ultima Weapon, Emet-Selch saves you from Elidibus, and its their powers combined that save you and your friends from the Endsinger. You are the legacy of each side’s imperfect love, equally.

WHICH brings me to my point of perplexion. Hydaelyn continues to be venerated. NPCs who know what happened continue to emphasize her side of things. I feel I must be missing something, because to me, the finale of Endwalker essentially shattered any idea that this was a Light vs Dark kind of story. People made choices. People made mistakes. It wasn't good or evil. It was human. We survived in spite of our mistakes because love was more powerful than our imperfections.

The Scions sacrificed themselves one by one just like the Ancients. And got brought back using energy from the Star... not all that different than what the Ascians had planned to do with their own brethren. I just don't see much functional difference there in the sentiments between either side.

I don't think we're supposed to hate Hydaelyn. I don't think she was evil. But I don't think she was better than the Ascians.

So while I don't expect, or want, characters to be condemning her left and right in the narrative, it's still baffling to me that there's such consistent, explicit reverence for her.