#anti-Greek propaganda
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I HATE WITH A PASSION THE END OF ARIADNE
I cannot express how much I hated the ending of Ariadne. Because Jennifer Saint just completely destroyed everything. The message that i get the way she has written the ending is that all men are bad, bad, bad. Do not trust them, they will fuck you up. (I knew to be wary of the so called feminist retellings, but no, i decided to read this book). Sorry to break it to you honey, but Theseus can't be blamed for everything. Phaedra was the one who accused her stepson of rape; you cannot just make her a martyr. I'm not touching the way the gods are considered, and don't get me started in the roman version of the myth of Medusa.
And, my dear, since you've written a feminist retelling (ο φεμινισμός σε μάρανε τρομάρα σου) maybe you shouldn't make Hera, the goddess of women, evil. Just saying. 😘
#anti Jennifer Saint#very anti#ariadne book#sigh#my nerves#book#retelling#greek mythology retelling#feminist retelling#book complaints#book critical#anti hera propaganda
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feeling weirdly defensive over nuclear energy tonight crazy what being on your period does to you
#saw some bullshit anti nuclear propaganda on a supposedly progressive page#first of all the reason it would be a bad idea for greece to have nuclear power plants isn't because of the seismic activity#it's bc everything in this country gets neglected and all we ever do is cut corners. thats not an inherent issue with nuclear power#it's just that we suck and wouldn't maintain such an intricate system properly to keep it safe enough#but that goes for literally any mode of energy production in this god forsaken country lol i don't think our coal factories are any safer#im just BEGGING people to at least read up and TRY to understand nuclear energy production and then form an opinion on it#because it seems most opinions are shaped from collective mythology from the chernobyl disaster#which btw most of us don't know how or why it happened!!!!! it all just gets boiled down to ''nuclear power bad''#of course radiation is dangerous and nuclear power production should be handled with extreme care and precision#and nuclear incidents and accidents are serious!!!!! don't get me wrong!!!!!#but ppl acting like a nuclear power plant will just spontaneously combust is so ignorant#I HAD A SMALL HYPERFIXATION PHASE ABOUT THIS OK LEAVE ME ALONE!!!!!!!!!#anyway greek progressives and leftists exhaust me more and more every day#just say you don't know enough to have an informed opinion it's not that hard!!!! instead they straight up spread misinformation#just to support their political arguments
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before yom hashoah ends, i want to remind folks that sephardi, maghrebi, and mizrahi jews were also deeply affected by the holocaust.
this is by no means inclusive of all communities who were affected by the holocaust and its aftermath, i do not have the emotional bandwidth for that, but hopefully this gives you some insight into jewish experiences outside of what's usually talked about.
the jews of morocco, algeria, tunisia, libya, and italy were all subjected to the racial laws of the vichy regime or fascist italy, which prevented them from attending educational institutions, holding public office, and owning businesses and sometimes property. moroccan jews were protected from some of the violence faced by other jews of the mediterranean and north africa because of the moroccan sultan mohammed ben youssef, who was vocally opposed to the anti jewish laws. he reportedly told the vichy government, "there are no jews in morocco. there are only moroccan subjects." he believed he had a god-given responsibility to protect moroccan jews. "moroccan jews are my subjects, and it is my duty to protect them against aggression."
unfortunately, other jewish communities did not receive that kind of protection. algerian jews faced a pogrom by the local arab population in constantine, killing 25 and destroying several jewish homes and businesses. 2000 algerian jews were sent to concentration camps in bedeau and djelfa, where many died from hunger, exhaustion, disease, or beatings. 5000 tunisian jews were forced into labor and detention camps where over 400 of them were killed. in libya, there was a violent pogrom which killed 500 jews out of a community of 4000. 2600 of the survivors were sent to the giado concentration camp, of which 526 died. in tunisia, there was a violent pogrom which killed over 130 jews (including 36 children), injured hundreds, and left 4000 homeless. italian jews faced pogroms, the jewish ghetto in rome was raided and over a thousand jews were detained and sent to concentration camps. a total of 7680 italian jews out of a population of nearly 45,000 were killed.
in greece, thousands of jews were deported to auschwitz. as many as 50% died en route, and only 10,000 out of over 75,000 survived, a nearly 90% death rate. their homes were looted and their property was stolen, and when the few survivors tried to return after the war (a difficult task as the greek foreign ministry attempted to delay or prevent their return to greece), most were unable to regain their property and possessions, forcing most to seek asylum in israel or other countries.
egyptian jews were not directly affected by the axis powers, but extremist organizations like young egypt and the muslim brotherhood sympathized with the nazis and even secured nazi funds to distribute thousands of antisemitic propaganda pamphlets. sporadic pogroms took place throughout the 40's, stoked by political leaders like mahmoud an-nukrashi pasha who said to the british ambassador, "all jews were potential zionists" and dr heykal pasha who said "if the u.n. decides to amputate a part of palestine in order to establish a jewish state, ... jewish blood will necessarily be shed elsewhere in the arab world ... to place in certain and serious danger a million jews." this political extremism prompted the 1948 cairo bombings that killed 70 jews and wounded 200, with many more being killed in the riots following, and eventually led to the expulsion of nearly all egyptian jews, whose money and posessions were all confiscated by the egyptian government.
similar political persecution was directed at iraqi jews, leading to the farhud, a pogrom which killed 180 jews and forced tens of thousands to flee. though there were many who did not support the nazi regime or agree with their views, there were just as many in arab countries who did, in no small part because of active effort by the nazis to gain sympathy from arab populations who already did not get along with their local jewish populations. this led to several other pogroms that took place in the 30's and 40's across lebanon, syria, and british mandate palestine, including a pogrom in jaffa which killed 9 jews and forced 12,000 jews to flee, and another in tiberias which killed 19 jews (including 11 children), most of whom were stabbed to death.
it's understandable that most of what the general public knows about the holocaust is the stories of ashkenazi jews from central and eastern europe, because they comprise the vast majority of the victims. hopefully, this encourages you to do further research into the ways other parts of the diaspora were also affected.
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Let this be a living example that knowing the beliefs of any individual who wrote any piece of text- be it literature, articles, or posts- can and should drastically alter your perception on what the text is actually communicating, even if that knowledge has, on its face, changed none of the actual printed words. This is how application of real-world context works, and this is how it applies to any recorded medium.
It reminds me heavily of a quote from video essayist Jacob Geller, regarding the 1938 film Olympia- "It's different when Nazis do it".
Olympia is a film that, on its face, simply depicts an artistic documentation of the 1936 Berlin Olympics. But within the context of its production taking place during the Nazi regime, with its director being a well known Nazi propagandist... The way the movie fixates on the power and elegance of the human form and Ancient Greek statues quickly shifts from being completely innocuous appreciation to the worship of what is perceived as the ideal forms of the "Aryan race". Suddenly, you understand the movie not to be a pretty inoffensive documentation of a historical event, but a propaganda piece.
Understanding the time period in which something was made, as well as the setting it was produced in/for, and whatever ideologies an artist may hold and experiences they've had is absolutely critical to getting a full understanding of anyone's work. There are some things that are near completely anodyne on their face, but the revelation of what the author thinks and feels about other people and the world around them totally redefines every word on the page.
This image is such a prime example of why context matters. This opinion, laid bare, stripped of context, is both inoffensive and nonsensical. No one's ever thought it to be lame to create your own nickname... But on its own, that's a harmless kind of wrong.
... But with the addition of them being marked as Anti-Trans (red) on Shinigami Eyes, a browser extension dedicated to crowdsourcing keeping track of Trans Friendly and Transphobic creators... Suddenly, "Nicknames" doesn't mean "Nicknames" anymore. Suddenly, you realize that "Nicknames" is code for "Chosen Names of Trans People". Suddenly this isn't about thinking choosing your own nickname is lame, this is about thinking that trans people shouldn't have the right to name themselves. Suddenly it's about invalidating identities, thinking they're worth mocking. Thinking that people who identify as trans are "just trying to be cool", and that they're not actually what they say they are, because you don't get to choose your gender nickname, that's something already decided for you.
Suddenly, you realize, it's not about "being lame".
It's about Transphobic Violence.
This is why you cannot ignore when an artist, author, essayist, developer, musician- so on and so forth- is bigoted. This is why you can't ignore the context behind their upbringing. This is why you can't ignore the context behind their lived experience, their ideals, their goals, their message. Yes, it may appear innocent on its face. Yes, it may look fine stripped from the context of it being written by an inevitably flawed human being. But what's really being said here? What do those words mean... To the one who wrote them?
Context redefines Text.
Even if the words didn't change.
#this post is a bit random. not apologizing. it was just such a perfect encapsulation#i am still tagging this as homestuck because this is ultimately EXACTLY how i feel about hussie + their works. you must understand this.#its so applicable to hussie + homestuck + analysis of homestuck that it is fucking painful. PLEASE understand this. PLEASEEEE#homestuck#homestuck meta#homestuck analysis#andrew hussie#context#literary analysis#essay writing#cw nazi#cw transphobia#nekro.pdf#nekro.txt
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My 2024 bookish predictions:
The Dragon Renaissance - With more Fourth Wing sequels in the works and season 2 of HOTD coming out in the summer, I think there's a good chance dragons and dragon-shifters could become the next big thing. Maybe they'll replace the fae as the "big" fictional creature?
The Percy Jackson Renaissance - It will be in full swing, accompanied by a noticeable Greek Mythology Renaissance among locals on Twitter whose knowledge of Greek Mythology is limited to... Percy Jackson. The Hunger Games renaissance will see its last days in January/February or so.
(Poorly written) military fantasy will become popular. Again, I think this will be an unwanted side effect of Fourth Wing's popularity. But I think the Gaza Genocide and institutions endorsing Zionism will play into this as well. I thinks we're about to see a lot of military propaganda in the book world and military-themed books trending.
Dark academia will enter into the beginning stages of its flop era. I say this as someone whose blog is largely dedicated to dark academia, but with Kuang not publishing anything in 2024, with Olivie Blake's Atlas trilogy coming to an end, and ST Gibson's An Education In Malice being... not that good, I can see people moving away from dark academia by the end of the year.
Colleen Hoover will release something. I don't particularly care for this, but I can easily see it happening. She didn't release anything this year so it makes sense she may have a 2024 release (and maybe one designed to improve her reputation).
The ACOTAR series adaptation will get chopped (officially, that is).
People will become less open about enjoying smut and dark romance with all the Twitter radfem discourse and backlash against poor quality romance ruling publishing. There will also be more "discreet" book covers. There will be a lot of anti-erotica discourse.
The Nobel Prize winner will be a POC.
Rivals-to-Lovers will replace Enemies-to-Lovers as the top trope. Less hate and more competition. More academic rivals, magic rivals, popularity rivals, etc. I can see people vibing with this in 2024 instead of the "I hate you but I wanna make out with you" vibes of full-on Enemies-to-Lovers.
JK Rowling will accidentally get herself arrested and/or indicted and she'll be all White Woman about it.
George RR Martin will announce that he "intends" to publish The Winds of Winter before the end of 2025.
A former Disney/Nickelodeon/child star/boyband member will write a memoir describing their trauma and they'll thank Jeannette McCurdy for giving them the courage to do it. The revelations will be insane and unprecedented.
#books#book blog#book community#book commentary#bookish#booktok#anti booktok#acotar#anti fourth wing#anti jkr#books and literature#rivals to lovers#enemies to lovers#dragons#pjo#dark academia#military fantasy#anti colleen hoover#book opinions#book criticism#2024 predictions
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Gehenna, the greek name for the Valley of Himmon, is a valley surrounding Jerusalem and is often referred to as a place of divine punishment.
In the Hebrew Bible, the Book of Joshua states in 28:3 that King Azah “burnt incense and children in the valley.” 33:6 mentions that his grandson continued this ritual. The children were sacrificed to the god Moloch. In 7:31Jeremiah(prophet) says to end the practice and all the shrines for it. So King Josiah answers this call and destroys the shrines to prevent the sacrifices. Important to add that this was never proven in any sense. The name Moloch only appears 8 times in the hebrew bible, so its not 100 percent confirmed that its even a god. A lot of theologists think that this ritual wasn’t actually a sacrifice but more like a rite of passage for a child. Plus that its actually just anti-pagan propaganda of that time.
In Aramaic translations of the hebrew bible, Gehenna is used for verses about resurrection, judgement and fate of the wicked.
In the christian Bible, Jesus refers to it as a dump where the habitants burn their trash and criminals. He calls it the pit of eternal fire which never burns out. Jesus uses Gehenna to symbolise the eternal suffering of the second death(The second death here refers to the punishment of sinners after death.). Its not the same as the eternal lake of fire as in the Book of Revelation but it corresponds to it. So gehenna is not Hell itself but more a symbol of it.
The reason why a lot of people call it hell is because 16th century translaters translated hades and gehenna both as hell. In Islam, the islamic name for hell, Jahannam derives from the word Gehenna!
So originally, Gehenna was just a valley but then became a place of sacrifice BUT this may be misinformation and it actually was used for rite of passages. It then became a dumping place, where the wicked were burned. It was never referred to as Hell but became synonymous with it after 16th century translations and the concept being analogous to the eternal lake of fire in BoR. The word Gehenna itself is referred to in verses about resurrection.
But how does this correspond to The summer Hikaru died?
A lot of those points fit the story very well! Like how they sacrificed their own people to a pagan god and how the village sacrificed heads to Unuki-sama. Im not entirely sure about this one point about the misinformation aspect. We know that the village believes that Nounuki-sama is some inherently evil spirit. But it’s not actually true, it’s more a man made thing. The villagers came to Nounuki-Sama. Like how Gehenna wasn’t inherently associated with hell but more so over the years. It also fits How Gehenna is often used in verses about resurrection, which kind of is what happened to Hikaru after being taken over by Nounuki-sama. AND how Josiah abolished the shrines and therefore the rituals may be what will happen in the story, how Yoshiki (and Hikaru) will overcome the village tradition and kind of put an end to what the elders and everyone before them have been doing. Maybe maybe idk these r just my thoughts would love more thoughts on this
#hikaru ga shinda natsu#the summer hikaru died#hikaru indou#yoshiki tsujinaka#spoilers#maybe#???#idk#theology#wanted to ask my old islam teacher about this but hes on vacation
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Lloyd Garmadon Ninjago propaganda/ anti Antigone propaganda:
- Ninjago universe is a representation of more than just Eurocentric concepts of philosophy, culture, myth, and folklore in the tragedy genre because Asian people deserve to have great tragic stories too
- Ninjago and specially Lloyd’s arc contends with the implications and effects of child soldiers, conquest and colonization, war and who benefits/profits from it, among others
- The play Antigone by Sophocles, which everyone is referencing, was as part of a larger play cycle that used the myth of Oedipus as Athenian supremacist propaganda after Athens lost the Peloponnesian War to Sparta. Specifically, these plays (including Antigone) criticize Sparta while lionizing Athens as a beacon of democracy, morals, and the favor of the gods. Friendly reminder that Athens actually conquered/colonized the rest of Greece later and was NOT a true democracy and also had some of the strictest rules limiting the rights of Athenian women. The modern day glorification of Ancient Athens is to the detriment of the rest of Greek history and is linked to the formation of Western supremacy/white supremacy
- on a less serious note Lloyd is superior to Antigone in every aspect so vote for him
[Propaganda]
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Hello!! I am extremely new to demonolatry as I have very recently discovered it and I would like to know if you have any resources for beginners to read/watch that are helpful. Don’t worry about it if you don’t or if you simply don’t feel like it, I don’t mind!! Ty and have a nice day!!!!
Hey there! Terribly sorry for answering this so late. Xx So I've only been into Daemonolatry for about a year now, though I have learnt a lot thus far and I'd be more than happy to share some really important pointers to aid you in walking this path. ^.^
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So first and foremost before I get into the main blogpost, I really cannot stress this enough...
Please educate yourself on closed practices and steer clear of cultural appropriation in your personal practises. There are a group of people in the Daemonolatry community who appropriate the heck out of Jewish daemons, especially Lilith. Judaism is a closed practise and therefore it's only respectful to not incorporate Judaism into your personal practises. Appropriating Judaism is actually a form of anti-Semitism, so please be mindful and respectful of these things! 🖤
I'm ashamed to admit this but I actually used to think it was completely fine to appropriate Jewish daemons last year, thanks to subreddits like r/DemonlatryPractices who would constantly try to push propaganda about Lilith being a "Mesopotamian Pagan Goddess" and other excuses for appropriating her. That same subreddit decided to attack me when I merely mentioned (on a completely different subreddit, mind you) that I disagreed with them appropriating Lilith, and in turn I got witch-hunted so that's great lmao. 🤡
Please avoid that subreddit at all costs, it's an absolute cesspit of cultural appropriation and passive anti-Semitism, and honestly they exhibit cult-like behaviour if you do so much as simply disagree with the appropriation of Jewish daemons. It's pretty disturbing... But yeah anyways sorry for rambling lol.
I'd also recommend avoiding people and organisations such as S. Connolly, V.K. Jehannum, Satan & Suns/Sons, BlackWitchCoven, The BecomeALivingGod Forum, The Satanic Temple, Joy Of Satan Ministries, The Order Of Nine Angles, scarletarosa (a user that literally exists here on Tumblr... yikes), etc. They engage in Jewish appropriation, and some of them even have ties to Nazism, racism, and other forms of bigotry too.
Some other Jewish daemons/spirits that you should avoid appropriating alongside Lilith are; Naamah, Agrat Bat Mahalath, Eisheth Zenunim, Samael, Abyzou, and the Grigori / Watcher Angels.
There are many other closed practices too, but if you'd like to do further research I can leave that up to you. ^.^
Okay sorry about that huge ramble lmao, just thought I would get that out of the way before getting into the main post because I think it's an important point to make and I don't want you to fall down a cultural appropriation apologist pipeline like I did at the beginning of my practise lol. Xx
Anyways, let's talk about The Infernal Divine!
+: GIF Credit :+
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So we'll start with some really basic stuff. What exactly are daemons?
It's not commonly known outside of Daemonolatry that daemons themselves actually predate Christianity. The term 'demon' (alternatively spelled 'daemon') comes from the word 'daimon' which originates way back in Greek mythology. Daimons were a type of tutelary deity as well as guiding spirit whose divine nature was that of both mortals and deities. They were also sometimes regarded as bringers of knowledge, wisdom, and destiny. In this sense, they could be considered deities in their own right.
Contrary to popular belief, daemons are not evil and never were to begin with. It was only until the coming of Christianity that daemons as well as other gods were vilified and ostracised due to the cultish, radical, monotheistic mindset a lot of Christian extremists held back in the day. Lucifer himself was a "demonized" Roman god also known as Phosphorus, associated with light and the planet Venus. From that description alone, I don't really get evil vibes lol.
In my opinion, our world cannot simply be split up into just black or white, and daemons are no exception. Daemons aren't evil, but they aren't completely love and light either; They're neutral. Much like humans as well as the universe itself, the Infernal Divine are various shades of grey, and all daemons are unique and differ in personality.
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So with all this in mind, what are some good resources that don't endorse and/or engage in appropriation of closed practices?
The YouTube channels ESOTERICA and ReligionForBreakfast have great information on the history of various religions and practises!
~ Book Recommendations ~
Livre des Esperitz
Dictionnaire Infernal
Pseudomonarchia Daemonum
Pandemonium: A Discordant Concordance Of Diverse Spirit Catalogues
I personally am working towards being a daemonolatry resource myself, but I haven't been able to post much lately due to my mental health issues. I also took an active break last year, as it was pointed out by a friend of mine that my belief of thinking it was fine to appropriate closed practises was obviously problematic, and so I took time off from posting in order to educate myself and delete any problematic blog posts I had made endorsing that in the past.
But nonetheless, I hope that what I was able to provide in this post was helpful! I wish you well on your spiritual path. 🖤
❀ ~ Many Blessings ~ ❀
-Korv
#asks#daemonolatry info posts#demonolatry#daemonolatry#demonology#daemonology#paganism#pagan#witchblr#theistic satanism#satanism#spiritual satanism#theistic luciferianism#luciferian#daemons#demons#infernal gods#infernal divine
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Are antis capable of arguing darkfic does any real harm without using a slippery slope fallacy?
No. We know that fictional depictions of crimes don't usually correlate to real crimes. People studying Greek Mythology don't cheat on their spouses more than average. People that enjoy mysteries don't tend to get in the way of police investigations.
There will, of course, be one in a million chances, where people are influenced by media to do crimes, but if someone lacks that amount of agency and critical thought, they probably shouldn't make a social media account in the first place. There are also far less drastic measures you can take to help those people than complete censorship of anything morally objectionable.
There's also intentional propaganda and stereotyping, which are separate conversations we could have if you actually felt like meaningful conversation over death threats.
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How do I explain to a very close friend that what is happening hurts me, an American Jew? That seeing people deny Jews as having a homeland in the area that is Israel reinforces antisemitic stereotypes and that stating there is an imbalance of power where the Jews/Israel have more power is inherently antisemitic. One of the things that hurt me the most was her inability to say that Jews had a right to live in Israel; she couldn't say what a solution would be, even when I have explained the idea of a two state solution, even when I would have been fine with some kind of generalized "I believe in a world without borders and everyone is equal". She played the "antizionism is not antisemitism" card. She kept stating "all the research I have done shows me x" but wouldn't say where that research was done. I care about this person deeply and in all other regards in politics she seems completely able to grasp the nuances and complexities of situations. What are some resources and ideas of how to start a conversation?
First and foremost, stay very up to date on what's happening. It is so so so important to understand that, a lot of the time, these awful views come from ignorance. These people are only seeing one side, the side Hamas wants them to see. Being informed, both on what they're seeing and what makes those things untrue, is central to battling misinformation.
Ask your friend if they would define the hatred for any other minority. Would they tell a Black person what anti-Black racism looks like? Would they explain to a queer person what is or isn't homophobic? Would they say that it's important to see the ableist's perspective to a disabled person? It's important to recognize and point out those double standards.
Also, what happened and is happening in Israel affects all of us around the world physically, mentally, and emotionally. I don't know whether you have any blood relatives in Israel, but I know you have family there. About seven million. We are all still in shock and mourning over what happened, and that is completely valid. But also, there has been a drastic spike in antisemitism globally. I know that as a Jewish college student living on campus, I am not safe. It's not just that I don't feel safe, I'm not safe. None of us can be safe or feel safe while Hamas propaganda is so rampant in our society. The fact that what is happening in Israel affects you as an American Jew is not just your opinion or perception or point of view. It's a fact. Anyone who denies it is ignorant and/or antisemitic.
The inability to recognize the indigenous heritage of Jews in relation to Israel has been so so so harmful in this issue. I highly recommend Rootsmetals on Instagram for learning more about these things, she makes very comprehensive informative posts.
Antizionism is antisemitism, because Zionism is a foundational Jewish value, and to deny it is to deny Jewish heritage and history. In the Torah we are referred to as one of two things. "B'nei Yisrael" and "Am Yisrael", children and nation of Israel, respectively. Every year after pesach we say "next year in Jerusalem" and this isn't new. This is an ancient tradition recognizing our roots there. During the Amidah prayer we turn to face Israel, yet again highlighting our connection to the land. The letters written on our Hanukkah dreidels vary depending on whether they were made in Israel or not. Heck, Hanukkah itself is a holiday about us reclaiming our homeland from Greek imperialism.
Also explain that Hamas's foundational goal is the genocide of Jews. Their charter is available on the internet, if your friend doesn't believe you she can read it herself. This isn't a war of land. This is a war of survival, and it is a war Israel did not start.
I'll be honest with you. All of the facts and rationality in the world will not be enough to change some people's minds. If that is, G-d forbid, the case with your friend, then it'll be up to you how you deal with that. There is no pressure to cut her out of your life if that doesn't seem like the right option to you, but you also shouldn't feel like you have to stay friends with her for any reason if that makes you uncomfortable.
Frankly, there are two questions that pose the ultimate test. How does she feel about the October 7th massacre, and can she confidently say that Hamas is a violent terrorist organization.
Failure to condemn both or even one of those is despicable and inherently antisemitic due to the goals of Hamas.
I'm sorry if this wasn't much help, but it's all I have to offer.
Am Yisrael chai, stay strong.
#Israel#am yisrael chai#jumblr#jewish#judaism#antizionism is antisemitism#antisemitism has no place here#fuck antisemitism#fuck hamas#discussion#advice
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notes on Minoan religion
I would personally refrain from reconstructing Minoan myths from later Hellenic myths that feature what are most likely Minoan deities; basically all of the latter, as far as I can tell, take the form of anti-Minoan propaganda. in particular—
most obviously the birth of the Minotaur to Pasiphaë, in which a Cretan queen is reduced to a lecherous witch-goddess enslaved by her appetite for literal bull-fucking. grim. I don't think you even have to consider Pasiphaë a Minoan goddess (as some do) for the message to be clear
the birth of Zeus, the quintessential Indo-European god if there ever was one, to Rhea, whom I consider to most likely be the reflex of a Minoan goddess through whom the monarchs of Knossos (at least) justified their right to kingship. the birth and nursing of Zeus at Ida (a Minoan shrine), then, acts as a kind of Mycenaean legitimising myth in which Zeus is identified with the indigenous Minoan monarchs—it's possible the myth contains elements of Minoan coronation rituals/symbols of kingship (the swarm of bees that flew out of the cave at Zeus' birth is the motif usually mentioned in literature), but I'd avoid making too much of it
the vanquishing of Talos, the protector of Crete, by Hellene heroes; some authors (Hesychius of Alexandria, for instance) identify Talos w Helios, and Wikipedia (but not Wiktionary) claims talos to be the Cretan reflex of Attic helios (Wiktionary, for what it's worth, claims abelios ~ awelios to be the Cretan form of helios). as evidence of Talos being a transmogrified Minoan sun god, this is—insufficient, though I do find the idea of Minoans giving a solar deity the task of protecting Crete (the Minoan state? civilisation? monarchy?) aesthetically attractive
Minoans were probably unrelated to the pre-Greek inhabitants of southern Greece; I think Beekes' comparison of (tbc, his reconstruction of) pre-Greek with Etruscan is pretty convincing, and I'd be careful about using Etruscan religion for the reconstruction of Minoan folkways—at the very least, until Linear A isn't deciphered, I believe the Etruscan language was probably closer to Chechen than to Minoan. not to mention the pre-Greek substrate language being Tyrrhenian doesn't make it Etruscan; it's unknown how much did pre-Greek religion share with mature (and thoroughly Hellenised) Etruscan religion
but! Minoan colonies on the Greek mainland predate the Hellenisation of southern Greece—evidently there was some kind of communication going on between the two, though iirc Minoans preferred to establish new settlements or settle in existing ones only after they've already been abandoned
more broadly, evidence of a theonym being of non-Greek origin shouldn't be taken as evidence of the divinity itself not being Greek—Athena is a pre-Greek (but not Minoan?) name, yet Athena the goddess is evidently of Indo-European origin
Minos itself, for what it's worth, is claimed to be a Greek name by Wiktionary—it compares the name to Sanskrit muni, 'ascetic; sage', partially on the grounds of 'the legend of [King] Minos living in Cretan caves' (so, about the connection between the birth of Zeus and Minoan coronation rituals...). Rhea is claimed to be a metathesised form of Greek ἔρα, 'ground', by some Classical authors and later quacks (without either denying the Cretan origin of the goddess's cult); I have my doubts. Ariadne is most likely a Minoan name, though I'll have to think more about the conventional identification of her with the 'Mistress of the Labyrinth' mentioned on Linear B tablets. and then there's Britomartis...
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Look, I am saying this as someone who admits her still enormous ignorance on the subject, but I am wondering how much of the general view of Neoptolemus as de fact a bloodthirsty psychopathic with no morals come from Virgil, the Roman and their anti-Greek propaganda
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Hello Dr. Reames!
Like many of us who follow you on this Hell-site we call home, I started watching Netflix's Alexander: The Making of a God. I'm an awfully shy person, and have been meaning to say hello, but a deadly concoction of anxiety and imposter syndrome has kept me away until a part of the docuseries lit a burning fire of a question.
I'm an Early Modern historian (18th century France), and although I have an obsession with Alexander the Great (going as far as begging my parents from around age 10 to 18 to legally change my name to Alexander) I never took a deep academic dive into the ancient Mediterranean world.
I think it was episode 2 where Alexander and Darius finally face each other at Issus, and after the battle Alexander has the captured "Greeks" (I can't remember now if he said Greeks or Macedonians) from Darius' army killed for fighting on the "wrong side." This kind of rubbed me the wrong way, especially when they switch to the talking heads and they kind of touch on it being known that people from the Greek poleis were mercenaries and were throughout the known Mediterranean world. That scene had a sort of 'Alexander as a Macedonian Nationalist' feel, and I assumed that Alexander was more open to the blending of cultures or at least there wasn't a single correct way to live and rule. That whole sequence of scenes felt contradictory: the mercenary system is well known yet a betrayal against "blood brothers"? Would Alexander actually have mercenaries executed for being hired by Persia?
Thank you for your time!
I'm glad you decided to finally step forward and ask a question! Nice to "meet" you.
Ah, yes, this is a matter of Real Politik.
After Granikos, a number of Greek mercenaries were captured, although their commander, Memnon, got away himself as he’d have been on horseback. Alexander had the men executed.
Greeks had served as mercenaries in Asia as far back as the Assyrian Sargonids. In fact, arguably, the archaic full hoplite panoply developed to fight on the broad plains of the middle east, not in Greece. (See John Hale’s chapter “Not Patriots, Not Farmers, Not Amateurs” in Men of Bronze, Kagan and Viggiano, eds., from Princeton; I find his argument convincing.) And, of course, Xenophon’s famous Anabasis told about the flight west of Greek mercenaries who’d served under Cyrus the Younger in his disastrous clash with his brother Artaxerxes for the throne.
For Alexander, the problem was that he—or really his father—had positioned this campaign as retribution against Persia for Persia’s earlier invasion of Greece, especially that under Xerxes. The invasion was, officially, under the aegis of the Corinthian League, with the Macedonian king just the hegemon. That made it a “Greek” campaign. This was all propaganda of course, but important for Philip, then Alexander, to maintain as it gave a patina of acceptability, not a naked power grab for more territory. While conquest wasn’t looked on then nearly as badly as it is now, it helped to have at least a plausible excuse.
His own troops included a number of Greek allies. After Chaironeia, they didn’t really have a choice. But a lot of Greeks were not happy to be in the Corinthian League. Sparta outright refused and would later be the center of an anti-Macedonian revolt.
At Granikos, the Persians had more Greek mercenaries than Alexander had Greek allies! (If one doesn’t count the Thessalian horse.) The optics were really bad. Ergo, as I think it was Carolyn who pointed out, Alexander had to send a clear message that fighting for the Persians against “the Greeks” wasn’t an option. In the Greek mind, mercenaries had always occupied a liminal status: not fully trusted because they fought for pay, but typically better than citizen troops, so used extensively post-Peloponnesian War. It was easy for Alexander to cast them as “just in it for the money” and as traitors to the Greek Cause. Like Thebes in the earlier Greco-Persian Wars, they’d “Medized,” which had a similar force to calling an American a “commie” in the 1950s.
The executions weren’t well-received in the rest of Greece, and resistance continued until it came to a head a couple years later with Agis’s Revolt (Agis III was the Spartan king who led it.). But Alexander was never afraid to send a harsh message when he needed to: Thebes, Tyre, Persepolis…. Philip did too. He could be just as brutal (Potidaia, Amphipolis, Stagiera), and Alexander learned well from him how to use carrot and stick.
So that’s what was going on there. Alexander was trying to turn Darius’ Greek mercenaries (who were some of the best troops in Asia Minor), and to send a message back HOME not to unite behind him and cut his supply lines. This was not successful; in fact, if Curtius can be believed, the Greek mercenaries were more loyal to Darius after Gaugamela than Bessus and friends. They figured they couldn’t go over to ATG, so they stuck with Darius who’d treated them well. Ironically, these same guys later did surrender after Darius’ death and were pardoned because, by then, showing clemency worked better for him than punishment.
Due to time constraints, and the desire of the showrunner to focus on Alexander and Darius, a lot of the details behind the campaign weren’t explored. So to the average reader, it looks like it was just Macedonians deciding to invade Persia because Persia killed Philip, although Philip says before he’s murdered that he wanted Alexander back for the Persian expedition. Not sure the casual viewer caught that. But this isn’t entirely wrong, as it really WAS a Macedonian campaign covered in the sheep’s skin of “Greek revenge.” Nothing is shown of ATG’s Greek campaigns, not even the infamous siege of Thebes because, again, the creators wanted it to be a clash of Macedon and Persia.
Alexander’s career is just so sprawling it’s really impossible to cover everything in limited time. But I hope that helps to contextualize why the Greek mercenaries were killed, and why it was presented as being traitors to the cause.
#asks#Alexander the Great#Alexander: the Making of a God#Greek mercenaries in Persian service#Memnon#The Corinthian League#Philip's campaign of “revenge” against Persia#Alexander's campaign of “revenge” against Persia#ancient Persia#classics#ancient macedonia
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hi! do you happen to know why queen frederica gets such bad rep? is it justified at all?
Hii! Thank you for your question and apologies for taking a while to respond.
It is fascinating how even after 40+ years after her death she, 'Queen Horror' as some call her, continues to be a thorn in the side of many anti-monarchists and others (especially current-day Greek journalists).
She was intelligent, intellectually curious (one of her main interests was nuclear physics), opinionated (perhaps too opinionated for her own good and position), and iron-willed. The two main reasons for her bad reputation are undoubtedly meddling into politics, as well as her inability to remain reserved about her political viewpoints (unsurprisingly, she was staunchly anti-communist). The second one is her ancestry — her being the last Kaiser's granddaughter was often used by left-wing politicians as propaganda against her, and the fact that as a young girl she had been part of the Bund Deutscher Mädel (League of German Girls), a branch of the Hitler Youth group for young women. Her supporters argued that it was impossible to not be part of the organisation in Nazi Germany at the time.
With so much said about her, I decided to read her autobiography A Measure of Understanding to get to know her better, and it did not disappoint. Politics and conventions aside, I discovered a dutiful Queen, a loving wife, and a devoted mother. Here are a few excerpts, some of them referring to the points mentioned above:
I cannot for the life of me find this particular one, but it's about her saying that she feels and is Greek when somebody reproachfully alluded to her German ancestry. I'll add it here once it's found. There is, however, another one that conveys a similar idea:
"Sitting in the beautiful garden in Alexandria, surrounded by many-coloured bougainvilleas, I mused upon our past experiences. We had lost so much, our home and family life. We had lost Greece, the country I had learned to love not only with my heart but with my whole being. Now it was occupied, and suffered under the people among whom I was born. I could not understand why all this had to happen. Why did Germany stab us in the back when our people had fought so heroically against one enemy already? It was so unjust that it broke every emotional link I had with the land of my childhood. It freed me to love and to serve Greece and the Greek people to a point of identification with them."
2. About her being part of the Bund Deutscher Mädel.
"One day two women in uniform were shown into my parents' room and I was asked to leave. It had become the law that all children must join the Nazi Youth Movement and the women had called to remind my parents of this duty. From that day on, once a week, I had to wear a uniform which consisted of a white shirt, black scarf and black skirt. Dressed in this fashion I would walk down the hill into the village and join a group of girls in some empty schoolroom. I did not like wearing uniform and have never liked it since, but I looked upon it as something that brought me, at last, into contact with other children. We used to knit and sing. [...] An older girl would usually lecture on some national subject but I do not believe that any of us ever listened; we were much too busy gossiping with each other. My father was not sympathetic to the Nazi movement but he could not discuss it openly. We had a very big staff and many were in it - some fanatic, some not fanatic - but you had to be careful what you said around the house. After a couple of weeks in the Youth Movement I had a long private talk with my father. He explained what all this uniform business really meant and we both decided that it would be better for me not to have anything more to do with it. As long as I was in Germany this would have been impossible, according to the law, so I was sent to England."
3. Her welfare work (there are many stories, I can’t write all of them 😅).
"Early one morning I left in Thomas's car. Thomas was my husband's personal help. I sat on the floor so as not to be spotted by our police who would then have followed me. I wanted to see for myself, unrecognised, how the poorest of the poor have to live. [...] I found one family actually living under an umbrella. The squalor and misery were great. They were a legacy of the Asia Minor tragedy, when a million Greek refugees had to leave Turkey and settled around Athens and Piraeus. Even there I could find the beauty of our people's soul. [...] In one small hovel I found a woman cooking some evil-smelling fish. There was no chair to sit on, no window, just a bed with a few rags on top. The young woman was very friendly. She told me that a fisherman had given her the fish as a present and so her children could have a warm meal. Usually they ate some bread and olives or tomatoes. [...]. I found a blind old man living in a dark cave. The food he ate was given to him by his equally poor neighbours. I asked him if nobody had ever suggested that he go to a home for blind people, where he could be well looked after. 'You see, I do not know anybody who could help me', he said, 'Sometimes I think of appealing to Frederica. She would help me I know, but I do not know how to write to her.' It was strange to be talked about while standing in front of him. I took steps to see that he was helped."
"On the way up I watched a young boy with a hunchback. He tried to keep up with us but could not. The crows pushed him around as everybody tried to get near us and he reached the top long after us, just when we were leaving. I caught a look of despair in his eyes. Too many people were milling about near me, so I could not talk to him, but on the way down I looked back every now and then and I would always meet his eyes while he was falling and stumbling down the hill. I felt there was something he wanted to say to me so I asked Palo [King Paul, her husband] to wait and let him catch up. When he reached us I asked him if there was anything I could do for him. 'Please, take me with you', was all he said. He was in rags, had nowhere to live and moved from house to house to eat and sleep. Dimitraki boarded the destroyer with us, rags and all, and became a member of our official party. He got a tremendous ovation from his villagers as he waved goodbye to them from our ship. Later he returned having learned a trade and now able to look after himself."
4. When Churchill thought he did something by reminding her that Kaiser was her grandfather at Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip's wedding, and I just really love her response.
"At one of my first meetings with Churchill, at the time of Princess Elizabeth's wedding, he said to me accusingly, 'Wasn't the Kaiser your grandfather?' 'It depends on how you look at it,' I answered, 'The Kaiser certainly was my grandfather, but Queen Victoria was my great-great-grand-mother. If you had the Salic Law in England my father would be your King today.'"
5. Due to her strong character and being able to charm (almost) every man, it was believed that she was the one wearing the pants in her and Paul's relationship, not to mention all those silly rumours about her having lovers left and right. I admire their relationship, as it was one of mutual understanding, respect, and naturally one of profound love.
"Palo was very wise and I was always learning from him but he was so modest that people often thought I ran the family. This distressed me but did not bother him. 'People do not have to know everything', he would say. 'I enjoy it this way.'"
The epilogue dedicated to her husband is written so beautifully, it honestly baffles me how anyone can think that that woman was unfaithful.
"Palo is my husband and my love. I cannot see him, but that doesn't matter; he still is my husband and I still love him. [...] We love in each other that which we never see. How can we ever lose each other? The true self is there, as much as before. The loss is theirs who do not know, it is not mine nor his who truly loved the changeless me. He said: 'I carry you in my heart, for ever and ever. We shall always be together. There is no separation, there is just one road. You and I, we know the road.' [...] I sometimes wonder, Sweetheart, if you knew what would happen to me when your battle was won. You were so keen that I should walk with you already, now, the road you saw on the other side. 'Come,' you said, 'come quickly, what are you waiting for?' It still rings in my ears and my soul. [...] Greetings, my Sweet. The dream for you is over. The Light is shining in our hearts. There is no sorrow, no shadow, and no night. Your peace, your joy, your love, help me to stay awake, and keep my eyes upon the glory that Heaven's Grace bestowed upon us."
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List of Hetalia ships I cannot fucking stand and why, in no particular order ✨
UsUk: I don’t even think I need to explain this one but I will. They call each other brothers, England raised him, they call each other brothers, ENGLAND RAISED HIM, THEY ARE BROTHERS, ENGLAND RAISED HIM, THEY A-
DenNor: This one I don’t see as problematic, more just my personal views. I see the Germanic Nordics as brothers. All 4 of them. And to add onto that, they have referred to each other as brothers, and I just think it makes more sense for them to be brothers, and not lovers. So this includes DenNor, SuDen, SuNor, and ESPECIALLY ships with Iceland. He is too young. He is a child. Anyway
PruAus: They’re… canonically… cousins… no… just no… they don’t even get along…
TurkGre: No. Absolutely the fuck not. 1. Turkey killed Ancient Greece, aka Greece’s mother, would you date your mother’s murderer? I thought the fuck not. 2. Greece is SO much younger than Turkey is. 3. I am Turkish and we and Greeks do not get along in the fucking slightest so even if the first two weren’t relevant, we literally just don’t like each other
RusPol: If you ship this I will actually avoid you like the plague. Russia has done so much bullshit to us, so the toxicity level in this ship is unreal. It’s toxic AND abusive. Historical context makes this a HUGE no no.
Spamano: No. No. No. NO. Romano was a CHILD. Spain made a child do hOUSEWORK. He was a CHILD. A TODDLER. A TEENY GUY. HE WAS LIVING WITH SPAIN WHEN HE WAS STILL WETTING THE BED. WHY. WHY.
TurkIce: I don’t think this one needs much explaining but here we go: Iceland is a child. He is a minor. His country may be old but he is physically 17. Which means developmentally he is 17. He has the mind of a 17 year old. He is 17. He is 17. He is 17. Turkey is OLD. EW. WHAT IS WRONG WITH Y’ALL???
RusLiet: Have y’all ever read about what Russia has done to Lithuania??? This is abusive as fuck. Period.
RusAme: I just can’t see it. On a world stage, America and Russia are enemies, and have been enemies for a long time. I cannot see an “enemies to lovers” type deal either. I just can’t
LietBel: This one I used to not hate until I figured out what kinda relationship Lithuania and Belarus actually have. I’ve yet to see one Lithuanian person who doesn’t claim Belarus rightfully belongs to Lithuania. Not only that but most of them refuse to call it “Belarus” and will usually call it “Belarussia”, or even more often, “White Russia”. This would be abusive, not from Belarus to Lithuania, but from Lithuania to Belarus.
PruLiet/PrusPol/PrusPoLiet: The only reason I categorise these as one is because I usually see them all lumped together anyway. But anyway, abusive. Abusive. Abusive. Abusive. Prussia had a TERRIBLE history with both Poland and Lithuania, especially when they were one country. The commonwealth and the Teutonic Order were constantly fighting each other, not to mention when you read up on how the Knights would talk about Lithuanians especially, it would be highly abusive. Read any part of the Livonian Rhymed Chronicle. The Teutonic Knights were literally read pro-Teutonic, anti-Lithuanian propaganda poetry to increase morale.
Germano: This is just eh to me. Could not care less. These two haven’t had near enough screen time (both in the show and manga) for this connection, and when they have communicated it wasn’t super pleasant. I wouldn’t call this ship abusive or toxic, not that far, I just don’t believe they’re close enough for this relationship.
BelaLiech: I am BAFFLED at how popular this ship is. Definitely not as popular as UsUk for example, but still concerningly popular. Belarus is 19 in canon, and Liechtenstein doesn’t have a canon age, but the fandom site says 12. I’ve seen people say 15, so she’s 12-15 years old. Aka: A MINOR. A CHILD. A C H I L D. NO.
EstLiet: Not much of the fandom knows this I think just because of his appearance and his mannerisms, but Estonia is 17. His physical age is 17. He is the same age as Iceland. While Lithuania’s canon age is 19, he is still an adult. Estonia I don’t think should be shipped with anyone older than 17, or younger than 16. My personal opinion.
Here are the ones from Balkantalia, aka not canon (mostly) but still relevant enough to include here
BulMace: This shit makes my blood fucking boil. It makes me want to commit a crime (for legal reasons that is an exaggeration). Bulgarians are so fucking terrible to us. Not even as a joke, Bulgarians hate us. They want to claim our country, they want to eliminate Macedonians as an ethnicity and a culture, they recognise Macedonian as a dialect of Bulgarian (we don’t even use the same letters???), and there is laws that prohibit us from identifying as Macedonian.
GreMace: I don’t know if that’s the correct ship name but regardless, this one is CONSIDERABLY worse. I haven’t seen it too much, but the fact I’ve seen it at all disgusts me. Did y’all ever hear about the Macedonian genocide? Did you know Greek neo-Nazis just tried to march in Lerin (the city my Macedonian family is from) to protest our existence? Did you know Macedonians are regularly attacked for being Macedonian on our own ancestral land? That we are not legally recognised as people in Greece? That Macedonians face police brutality in Greece? They want us fucking dead. My family did not flee genocide in Macedonia for you to make cute art of them kissing. Fuck you. Personally, and with full disrespect.
SerbCro: I am appalled at the amount of Serbs and Croats who actually ship this. Serbian and Croatian history is FULL of violence and bad blood, and the things they’ve done to each other historically is disgusting. Not only with the Ustaša and Yugoslav massacres. Not only do I HC the Serbo-Croats as brothers, but brothers who cannot go 5 seconds without fighting. Why? Because that’s how they are in real life. They cannot get along. If I had a dollar for every time I saw a Serb and Croat not fighting, I’d maybe have 50¢.
SerbMonte: No. No ❤️. Absolutely not. At least from the POV of one of my Montenegrin friends who used to live in Belgrade, Serbs do not like Montenegrins. They get bullied, harassed, and they’re considered to be second class Serbs. So no. Absolutely not.
I’m here to remind you guys this isn’t a show like most others, where the characters are fully made up and have no actual context. Hetalia, while a comedy show, is still based on history and culture of actually countries personified to be people. You cannot erase historical, cultural, or social context.
When I see my countries being shipped with their aggressors, or being shipped with people they aggressed, it doesn’t make me feel good. I don’t just “Ope well they’re characters oh well” those are representations meant to show you a little bit of the history.
They’re not always accurate, because one man from Japan who writes manga about countries he isn’t from will not always be right, but these are still representations.
Historical context in Hetalia is crucial. ESPECIALLY when it comes to shipping.
#Hetalia#Ships#Hetalia Ships#Ships I literally cannot stand#Most of these if you ship please stay at least 50m away from me
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I love this whole furry bait thing because have yall seen how they used to draw Satan he was usually Half human half goat? So it really wouldn't be out of line
I know this isn't a part of the convo, but I had someone tell me Vivzie was culturally appropriating voodoo. That's because they said that it was being done by a white person and it being seen as "demonic". First of all, I think we all know that Alastor is mixed and not white (not that it matters, anyone of any skin color can practice Voodoo) and that person clearly didn't know what cultural appropriation was.
You know what is appropriation? Using a satyr (Greek) for biblical figures, while ignoring the fact that Catholics demonized pagan Greeks and specifically used that to shun them. They even made Poseidon's trident into a pitchfork.
Funny that these guys will play into the anti-Greek propaganda that Catholics probably still use, while saying Viv is anti-Voodoo because a bad person is doing bad things.
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