#and a little on the raimiverse version of harry | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

kits-ships · 1 year

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💕 with ur spiderman si ?? 😏

by GOD did i infodump. thank u sm for the ask!!

holly is my s/i that has gone thru the most atrocious experiences. not that the other's haven't experienced anything awful, but with holly they dont stop coming and they dont stop coming and they-

she has three major au's; one for the raimiverse, one for the mcu, and one for the spiderverse. you can typically tell the difference by their hair colors if i don't mention which one i've drawn! spv holly has a short, brown bob, rv holly has longer, dyed hair, and mcu holly is bleach blonde.

for all three versions, her "great responsibility" moment took place in psych ward and was originally in reference to her art, but it took a new meaning when holly failed to protect the nurse that she'd grown attached to. it felt like she'd lost so much at this point, so she was determined to change her destiny from that point on. that's what drove to become the night-web!

she managed to find herself living in nyc (greenwich) after her mentor passed and left her home to holly. the woman's son had already passed away prematurely and didn't have many other people to put in her will, so she decided to hand it off to the closest thing to a child she had left. of course holly graciously accepts the property- even if she hates the city environment- because who can afford a home in this economy??

however, it branches off a lot!!

before graduating, raimiverse holly finds herself working in the shadow of spider-man. she's not too much of a fan of this dork, but her college internship gives her an excuse to go to the city and fight crime, so she does her best to deal with him. of course peter is excited by the presence of someone just like him, so he's a little upset when she goes out of her way to avoid him.

she can't even escape him as she works under otto octavius, because he shows up anyways! holly is just trying to work on designing the man's arms and fusion reactor- not talk to some random guy that harry brought in. but, in the end, they grow a bit closer after otto passes away. after all, watching ur man boil in the manhattan river is a great bonding exercise. unfortunately for them, tho, this friendship is kind of shattered during spider-man 3. holly will NOT allow some nerd to bully her- especially with some emo bangs.

after college, mcu holly finds herself working alongside matt murdock to take down fisk. she learns of his identity one night after he was especially roughed up- doing her best to take care of him with the help of claire. she doesn't quite know how the woman knows him, but it's nothing, right? from then on, holly often finds herself taking heavier blows for matt as she knows her healing factor and resilience make her a tougher target to beat down.

unfortunately for her, though, things change when elektra enters the picture. suddenly, matt is avoiding her, he kissed his coworker, and he's hanging out with some murderous gal?? it breaks her heart knowing that she was putting so much effort into their relationship, so she has a bit of a meltdown once frank castle catches the two of them and gives them his little speech from the rooftop. holly decides frank has a point, matt is a prick, and so she swings off to do some thinking. but, in holly's saddened state, she bonds with a symbiote named malice and ends up doing a little bit of murder to try and grab matts attention. she ends up needing dr strange to exorcise it from her body and, after a bit of research, becomes penpals with eddie brock <3

i don't have much about spiderverse holly, but i love her. she's the most optimistic of the three and is also absolutely enamored by the younger spiders. like, she would probably break someones legs to protect them.

much like the others, holly ended up in miles' timeline and was found by peni. it was all very confusing to her- everyone was named peter or something parker- but she felt better when gwen stacy showed up. there isn't a peter parker in her universe, but she quickly begins to wish did after meeting spider-noir. i mean, the man likes to punch fascists?? sign her UP. but, besides that, i don't know much about her story. i do know that she confesses to noir right before returning to her universe and is thoroughly embarrassed by the others' reactions, but she's still happy she got a lil kiss <3

#blueskiesforholly #redskiesforholly #greyskiesforholly #transdimensionallove #sketchingthedoc #goodness #ask game #psych ward tw #psych warch mention #holly; feelings are fatal

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sparklesphobia · 2 years

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Random Spiderman Artdump!!

These are all sketches/drawings that I've just been piling up for a little under a month so I thought I might as well share them with ya'll

These are all my versions of the characters (which is a mixture of Raimiverse, some comic canon, and The Spectacular Spider-man 2008 series) I'll give an explanation/description/fun facts on each drawing under the cut :P

Just a base drawing of I want my Otto to look. He starts out much like the Raimi ver. but after the accident (much like what happens to TSSM Otto) he becomes cold and quite egotistical like in the comics.

Just a base drawing of I want my Norman to look. His personality is a good mix between Raimiverse and TSSM Norman(s) but the Goblin is both a mental construct (DID, protector alter that gets twisted by the serum) as well as a physical transformation (I just think that's cooler and hate the idea of Norman just going around in a rubber mask)

Some cute Goblin sketches with him being flustered (Otto complimented/flirted with him) as well as him waking up already out, and then finally him sharing a cute kiss with Otto

I just like the idea of Goblin sitting on Otto's lap in front of the rest of the Sinister Six bc he's a little shit who likes showing off his "leverage"

Just Goblin being a little flirtatious shit with Otto who is not having it lol (this is before they actually start "dating")

Just some random sketches, mainly wanted to draw Harry bc I love him <3. So drew his and Normans profiles, drew a quick Peter, and then colored a cute Parkborn sketch bc they deserve to be in love and do the classic Spiderman kiss -w-

#green goblin #doc ock #doctor octopus #harry osborn #peter parker #norman osborn #otto octavius #spiderman #my version #artist of tumblr #digital art #art dump #sparkles sinister six #sparkles art

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youknowwhoiamassbutt · 2 years

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Norman Osborn’s many different abuse tactics

I’ve watched quite a few Spiderman things in my lifetime, not as much as many, but a fair amount. Every single time I watch something with Norman Osborn in relation to Harry Osborn, I notice a pattern of abuse. It isn’t a consistent pattern, because Norman’s character and motivations shift and change as all comic characters do, but the pattern is still there. The pattern is that Norman Osborn, implicitly or explicitly, is abusive to his son.

Norman’s abuse presents in different ways depending on the story and his development, which means each version is a correct representation of the character, whether it’s our interpretation or not. I’m not here to explain why one version is more accurate than another, or here to call out his character arc in any particular instance as right or wrong. I’m simply here to talk about the aspects of Norman’s abusive behaviors that I have noticed and liked to see in the media I have seen him in.

It might sound odd that I love watching a character (Harry Osborn) go through similar trauma’s that I have gone through, but I do. There are probably many complicated reasons as to why I’m this way, but I have a feeling I don’t need to explain myself to any Harry Osborn fans that feel intrigued to read this, as they probably feel the same.

Full disclosure: the type of parental abuse I experienced was Narcissistic abuse, which means, there was a lot of *gaslighting*, manipulation, and verbal abuse (there will be a terminology glossary at the end). This means that I am drawn to the more narcissistic versions of Norman, as I understand that type of abuse, and it helps me relate to Harry on a deep level.

One last disclaimer: I may misremember a few details here and there when talking about these shows and movies, so please forgive me. I don’t have time to sift through every scene just to get everything exactly right. As long as I’ve got the basic gist, I think we’re good.

Raimiverse (spoilers ahead!)

The first depiction of Norman Osborn that I ever saw was in the Raimi trilogy. There are quite a few pieces of emotional *neglect* and verbal abuse that were sprinkled in to those movies. First of all, Norman blatantly favors Peter, Harry even acknowledges that in the first 40 minutes of the first film. When Peter meets Norman outside of the museum, he tells Harry how amazing his father is. Harry makes an offhand comment about Norman only appreciating geniuses.

During the thanksgiving scene, we see Norman angrily storm out. Harry quickly follows behind him. They have an argument about Mary Jane and Harry’s mother. While there isn’t much to pull from this scene’s dialogue, there is a lot to say from Harry’s non-verbal reactions. Harry sticks up for MJ as much as he feels he can, which, isn’t very much (which is sucky). The fact that Harry doesn’t feel comfortable to say anything more than “You’re wrong about her, dad” lets us see that they have probably been in worse altercations. Harry keeps his voice level and calm at all times. He tries to keep the conversation from escalating while still sticking up for himself and his girlfriend.

The Goblin’s first attack, shows us how little Norman really cared for Harry. He attacks the ledge that Harry and MJ resided on overlooking whatever event/parade was going on (I was never quite sure what was happening right then). He shows a disregard for Harry’s safety here. He throws deadly weapons right next to his son.

Later in the trilogy, in the third one to be exact, Emo-Pete/Venom-Peter has a fight with Harry. He tells Harry how much of a disappointment he was to Norman and how little Norman actually loved him. This rings true. While we didn’t get to see much of it due to (I’m assuming) the writers intentions to make Norman a sympathetic villain, the words would not have been uttered if there wasn’t a grain of truth to them. We don’t see Norman neglect Harry’s emotional needs, we don’t see Norman verbally berate him over his grades or his life choices, but we don’t need to see it. If you’ve experienced abuse, you will have already spotted it.

What I really enjoyed about the dynamic in these films, was that we saw Peter, a complete stranger to Norman before the museum, become Norman’s *golden child*. We see how Norman would have preferred Peter to be his son, and we see how much Peter looks up to him as a father figure. Because of Peter an Norman’s dynamic, Peter implicitly gaslights Harry. He sees nothing wrong with their relationship, because he’s blinded by his own want for a father figure. Peter only sees the version of Norman that Norman presents to him, and he accepts that presentation without question.

The Amazing Spiderman (spoilers ahead!)

In the Amazing Spiderman 2, we are introduced to Harry and Norman in the same scene. Norman is on his death bed when he informs Harry that his disease is hereditary. He seems to find glee in watching his son realize his impending doom.

There wasn’t much there in terms of Norman Osborn, so there isn’t much to talk about. Obviously, Norman never really cared to have Harry, as the moment he became difficult to care for (after Emily, Harry’s mother, died) he shipped Harry away to another country. The detachment to his son shows us just how emotionally neglectful Norman was.

Ultimate Spider-man (spoilers ahead!)

Ultimate Spiderman is my second favorite depiction of Norman Osborn to date, but it also frustrates me the most. The show focuses less on Norman’s abuse and more on the impact it’s had on Harry. This is fine, I love that! We’ll get to why it frustrates me later (if you’ve seen the show, you probably know where I’m going with this).

First of all, Norman places an immense amount of value on Harry’s grades, and he rewards good performance with his attention. This is a problem because Harry never lives up to Norman’s expectations. Now, I don’t believe that Norman was intended to be abusive in this show, but that’s exactly what he was. If Harry didn’t meet his expectations, Norman would pay him no mind. He wasn’t worth Norman’s attention or energy if he couldn’t provide Norman pride. Harry struggled with his grades, he had little interest in athletics, and he had no unique talent, therefor, he was worthless to Norman.

In a flashback to the time Harry and Peter became friends, we see the Raimiverse pattern reemerge. Harry and Norman give Peter a ride when his bike is broken down by the side of the road. Norman makes a comment on Harry’s grades in comparison to Peter’s. Harry passively complains to Norman that he wishes Norman would stop micromanaging his life. Peter, of course, sees only what he wants to see. Peter is blinded by his desire for a father figure. Peter steps in where he doesn’t belong, and he sides with Norman. He tells Harry that he thinks it’s great that he has a father who cares so much. He gaslights him. Peter’s words reinforce the ideas that Norman had established, the ideas that he is a good father trying his best, and Harry is just misunderstanding and being insensitive to Norman’s situation as a busy single father.

I love seeing that dynamic, the one where Norman favors Peter, and Peter accidentally gaslights Harry. It’s one of my favorite versions of these characters, because it’s so relevant to real-life situations.

When Harry is infected with Venom, we really see the extent of the damage Norman’s neglect has caused him. He lashes out and continuously tries to attack Norman. When Harry realizes that there’s something wrong, that he can’t control the symbiote, he goes to his father for help. Norman immediately shuts Harry down. He tells Harry that he doesn’t have time for his teenage drama. He brushes Harry off when he’s told that it’s not about Harry’s grades improving. This is when Harry lashes out and tries to kill Norman.

Obviously, Norman is Harry’s father, so, in this stage of Harry’s life, he still loves his father and simply wants the attention and care that every child deserves from their parent. Once Peter helps Harry “purge” Venom, Harry continues to try and chase Norman’s approval. Peter even states that Harry is always searching for Norman’s approval, but that he’ll never get it.

For the longest time, the only time we see Norman proud of Harry, is when Harry is Venom. When Harry is an uncontrollable weapon that Norman designed. When Harry is no longer Harry. Norman prefers his son as a dangerous killing machine to be used however Norman pleases, rather than the human he helped raise.

We see a lot of emotional neglect. Norman frequently neglects Harry’s emotional needs, however, he provides him with money for his other needs. This only makes children of abuse more confused. Clearly Norman cares for Harry if he’s keeping up with his basic needs, and even spending lavishly for his son to have entertainment, right? No. He’s not a present presence in Harry’s life, which leads to Harry being fairly isolated when MJ and Peter aren’t around.

One of my favorite lines in the show is “I just wanted to make you proud. But since that’ll never happen, I’ll just make you go away.” This is really where we see the full extent of Harry’s pain. This is where we see how much Norman has affected his life negatively.

A moment that ties into why I get so mad at this show is in the same exact episode as the line above. Harry had just rescued Peter from Carnage by taking the Venom symbiote out of his friend and he faced his father with the help of Spiderman. The battle was about to be over, Harry and Peter were about to be safe, when Norman takes Harry. He says that they have unfinished business. So, out of spite that Harry tried to kill him, Norman tries to take his revenge, by dropping Harry from a large building, Gwen Stacey style. Now, don’t get me wrong, I love this scene and I’m so glad they put it in here. But…now I can talk about why this show frustrates me.

In my opinion, from dealing with abuse and researching it for probably around 6 years of my life, they should have kept their relationship at that level, or escalated it. There should be no coming back from that. A disregard of someone’s life or a blatant murder attempt is not something you can work through. Ultimate Spiderman let me down the moment they started Norman’s redemption arc. Having an abuser in a kids tv show change for the better, in my opinion, can be very damaging. A common lie that children of abuse tell themselves is “If I loved my parent more, if I showed them how hurt their actions make me. Their love for me will win out and they will change. If I work hard enough, my parent will love me enough to not hurt me anymore.” By giving Norman a redemption arc, the show reinforces this very dangerous lie.

Marvel’s Spiderman (2017-2020) (spoilers ahead!)

This is my absolute favorite version of Norman Osborn. He is so accurate! The show focuses on Norman’s abuse, rather than Harry’s response. As apposed to the neglect Norman showed Harry in the other versions of his character, he micromanages Harry and manipulates his son’s life behind the scenes.

The show starts off slow, only showing us snippets with ominous camera angles and suspenseful music. We’re supposed to feel unease around Norman, but we don’t yet have the information to figure out why. He is framed above Harry and Peter, he towers over them, a looming threat. This is a way to show us that he holds the power in these scenes. Harry is meant to look small and weak against him.

As the show progresses, we quickly see more interactions with Harry and Norman. A perfect scene is one where Harry is preparing for his return to school party at Horizon High. His father calls him into his office to speak with him. Norman starts with manipulative questions designed to guilt Harry. He tells Harry that he never believed Harry to be at fault for the mishap that caused Harry’s suspension from Horizon high. This is incredibly nefarious when we learn later that Norman had orchestrated that suspension to get his son into the school he wanted to build, so that he could use his son’s suspension as a reason to build the school, and therefore, provide him with even more ammunition against Harry. Harry tells his father that he knows Norman believes in his innocence. We watch Harry’s body language change throughout this scene. The moment it becomes clear what type of conversation this is, Harry avoids Norman’s eye contact for as long as possible, until Norman crouches in front of him. Norman takes Harry’s bowtie off, and replaces it with his own. A gesture that could be taken as innocent and even sweet, but it could also be taken as an exertion of power and ownership. Norman tries to control Harry’s life so closely, that Harry’s bowtie isn’t even good enough.

Norman tries to convince Harry to stay at Oz academy, Harry explains that he wants to make a name for himself, independent of Norman’s legacy. Norman gets upset by this and grabs Harry’s shoulders in a threatening manner. We see that Harry is scared by this from the expression on his face and the way his body tenses. Norman warns Harry that he will never be able to escape the name Norman provides. Harry backs away from Norman to “check his tie in the mirror” but we all know he just doesn’t want to look directly at Norman, but he needs the safety that knowing where Norman is provides him. We watch Harry watch Norman through the mirror for the rest of the interaction. Harry’s body language throughout all of his interactions with Norman, prove that he has been dealing with abuse his entire life. We often see him go into a *trauma response* when interacting with Norman. He keeps himself fairly still, he avoids eye contact to prevent a challenge, and he keeps his voice steady and calm to avoid escalation.

Eventually, after spider island, right when you think they’re about to make the same mistake Ultimate Spiderman did and give Norman a redemption arc, Harry strays from the path Norman had envisioned for him, Harry is booted from being the golden child. While in Ultimate Spiderman, when Harry and Norman’s relationship is at it’s worst, Harry is the *invisible child*. In MSM, Harry becomes the *scapegoat*. Norman takes matters into his own hands when Harry no longer wishes to believe Norman’s manipulations.

Norman gaslights Harry into believing that he has been attacking Spiderman. He uses his son’s ill health to convince Harry that he’s going insane and trying to murder his best friend. He goes as far as to dress Harry in his Hobgoblin gear and place him on the floor to convince his unconscious son that he is doing what Norman wanted him to do.

Once Harry figures out that Norman is the person framing him, everything comes to a head. There’s a battle in which Harry chooses Peter over Norman. Norman angrily shouts to Harry “You’ve failed me, and deserve what you’ve wrought.” We can assume from the look on Norman’s face that he was willing to kill Harry if necessary. There is an explosion which Norman is caught in, and Harry and Peter get away.

I love this scene, and specifically that sentence within the context of the whole story. The season, and their relationship is ended on such a violent note, and yet…when they bring Norman back in season 3, Disney XD doesn’t shy away from this. They pick things up right where they left off. Norman is still just as angry and heartless as he was when he “died”.

I must say though, my favorite part of the entire show is that Harry not only got to live out a revenge fantasy by accidentally killing his father, but he also got to have a healthy ending, where he cut Norman out of his life and can try to move on and heal away from the influence of his abuser, and without the need for punishment as justice.

In the finale for these two, Peter introduces Harry as the one person Norman always underestimated. And I think Peter couldn’t have been more right.

To gaslight: To make an individual or group question their perceived reality. It is often used by abusers to make their victims feel insane and therefore their feelings unjustified. An individual can be gaslighted by one or more people. Societal gaslighting happens when others outside of the abusive system reinforce the false reality an abuser has established, further forcing the victim into that false reality.

Golden child: a golden child is the child of an abuser that “can do no wrong”. This is the child that the parent/parents proudly present to others and shower with attention and praise. It is important to recognize that the type of attention a golden child receives is not the fulfilling kind. A golden child receives attention for their outward accomplishments, the things that look good to others. They have high expectations placed upon them. In some family systems, the title of golden child can be given and taken away at a moment’s notice. It can bounce between children depending on who the most outwardly impressive child is at the moment. Or, a golden child can be a permanent golden child. The child that gets away with everything and can truly do no wrong.

Invisible child: The invisible child is the child that is often overlooked in abusive familial systems. The name is pretty self-explanatory. They are not as scrutinized as either the golden child or the scapegoat. They get away with more things than the scapegoat, but they don’t receive the amount of attention or praise that the golden child does, infact, they tend to receive none. The invisible child is the forgotten child.

Scapegoat: A scapegoat is a child that is blamed for everything. If something goes wrong, it is blamed on the scapegoat. The scapegoat is always in trouble and often picked on by the abuser to instigate a fight that will eventually be blamed on the scapegoat. The scapegoat is the punching bag of the family system and is often labelled as a problem child, no matter how docile or pleasant that child truly is.

Neglect: It is important to remember that neglect is not just physical. A parent can provide for the financial and basic needs of a child, much like Norman does, but still be emotionally absent from that child’s life. Emotional absence is considered neglect, and it is considered a form of abuse.

Trauma response: An automatic response the body/brain have to a situation that reminds the person of past trauma. A trauma response is different than PTSD. They can be mild behaviors that one does not notice, such as freezing and making oneself as small as possible (trying to go invisible if you will) because they’ve been taught that engaging makes the situation worse. It is any unconscious, learned response to a triggering situation.

#spiderman #green goblin #norman osborn #harry osborn #parksborn #ultimate spiderman #marvels spiderman #raimi trilogy #raimi spider man #tasm 2 #amazing spider man #this took way too long to write #why did I just waist two hours of my life?

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crab-withaknife · 2 years

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spider-man (for the blorbo ask game) 👀 - any versions

OUGH THANK U >:]]]

• blorbo (favorite character, character I think about the most) = RAIMIVERSE DOC OCK ABSOLUTELY

• scrunkly (my "baby", character that gives me cuteness aggression, character that is So Shaped) = Spiderverse Miles is like a beautiful son to me i think he can be a scrunkly

• scrimblo bimblo (underrated/underappreciated fave) = Harry from Raimiverse !!! i love him a lot

• glup shitto (obscure fave, character that can appear in the background for 0.2 seconds and I won't shut up about it for a week) = Raimiverse Dr. Connors he's barely in it but i am such a big fan of this guy

• poor little meow meow ("problematic"/unpopular/controversial/otherwise pathetic fave) = does Hoffman count i think he's pathetic and i love him

• horse plinko (character I would torment for fun, for whatever reason) = Harry from Webbsverse, yucky

• eeby deeby (character I would send to superhell) = Raimiverse Eddie Brock though i admire that he prayed for god to kill peter parker the reporter

#ask game #thank uuuu :]#spiderman #spiderverse

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danwhobrowses · 2 years

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Spider-Man: No Way Home - Review

At 10:30am I sat in a cinema, a tad concerned that there was people sitting next to me, ready to watch something we had been anticipating for a long time. Marvel and Sony's most ambitious crossover story had finally arrived, so now I can review it

Obviously, there will be spoilers for this movie, so go and watch it (warning though, the 'second post-credits scene' is not a post-credits, it's a trailer for another movie)

So it's no surprise that I enjoyed this movie, but alas it wasn't the best Spider-Man movie as it could have been, definitely a strong showing but it had some messy content too: which I will get into.

What wasn't great about the movie

Please bear in mind that while these are criticisms, these are not dealbreakers in my enjoyment of the movie, they're more observations that made me pause a little.

The Usual Problem of Trailer Content While the trailers did do a good job in keeping most of the trailer content in the first half of the movie, I will stay consistent and say that there were some scenes in the trailers modified in the movies. It didn't change the tone of the plot but still, it's a nuisance to promote something that's not in the movie.

Flash Thompson is just terrible I've had a bit of a mixed feeling towards MCU's version of Eugene 'Flash' Thompson, but No Way Home did nothing to help that. The guy's main character point is that as much as he's a dick to Peter, he is Spider-Man's biggest fan; he believes in him, he admires his strive and commitment. So it sucked that when he found out Peter was Spider-Man the first thing he did was seek to profit from it: writing a book and pretending to be Peter's best friend, without getting any of the harassment, cancel culture or negativity his actual friends did - it's off is what it is. Plus it makes little sense why Peter needs to go through Flash to plea his application to MIT - which Flash somehow got into despite all this profiteering.

The First Act is perhaps a little too slow One can understand starting the movie where Far From Home left off, however, it left a lot of repetitive stuff of Peter and co being treated differently now that everyone knows he's Spider-Man. For some reason though Peter's charges are dropped thanks to Matt but Stark Industries is taken down because the drones are Stark's (also we do no service towards actually clearing Peter's name, like it should be really easy to prove that Mysterio was lying) so it basically kills off all of Peter's AI advantage, but he can still use the spider-limbs that one time. It is necessary, but it's annoying that it took so much time out of the movie AND that the straw that broke the camel's back is going to MIT, it did feel like there were worse times where MJ and Ned suffered which could've warranted Peter going to Dr. Strange better. We could've sped through the initial aftermath and gotten to the same destination.

The film still struggles to leave Tony Stark's shadow A common criticism of the MCU Spider-Man is how most of his stories still end up revolving around Tony Stark in some way: Vulture and Mysterio being disgruntled Stark-haters and Peter uses Stark tech in his suit. While No Way Home will end the Stark dependency, much of its Second Act ends up being due to Tony Stark's tech: the Fabricator. This magic 3D Printer thing becomes key to Doc Ock being 'healed' - not to mention how the nanotech of Stark's suit is what nullifies Doc Ock's tentacles - as well as providing an Arc Reactor for Electro to use, while not as blatant as prior movies, I am tired of Stark being the reason for Spider-Man's success and enemies.

They got rid of the Goblin Mask! Green Goblin's suit in the Raimiverse was cartoony yes, but it also fit the manic alternate personality Norman had within him. To shatter it really early in the film did make me feel a little sad, not to mention replacing it simply with some goggles and a hood like Harry's Raimi Goblin, which of course looked less striking, would've been cooler to keep it around, or even remake it.

Some major characters felt wasted It can't be much of a surprise given the massive amount of character and famous actors in this movies, so unfortunately some characters fall through the cracks. The biggest letdown in that is Lizard, his arrival is him already captured, then he spends most of the movie hiding in a van until the fights happen, given how he was a similarly tragic character to the Raimi villains it was a shame that Lizard didn't really get some time to flesh himself out. Similar criticism can be said for Happy and MJ; while they're present a lot in the movie they do little in the grand scale, watching others do the thing. Also Dr Strange, while it isn't his movie of course he is a key part of why this is happening, so it's surprising that after their mirror dimension fight he's just gone until he needs to properly clean up the mess.

Sandman's motivations to turn are weak I can understand Sandman wanting to go home, and I can understand him not fully trusting Holland's Peter, but Flint deciding to fight with the villains on the Statue of Liberty was, daft. He wants to go home right? He's supposed to be a crook with a heart and yet he acts pretty heartless towards Holland, and then when Tobey is here he shows zero sympathy there either, almost drowning him in his own sand. Sandman could've easily just been a hero that the villains neutered like Norman 'curing' him before his deception was revealed to keep him off the board.

Aunt May felt kinda fridged The idea of making Aunt May's death the Uncle Ben for Holland didn't land for me. Marisa Tomei put on a good performance for her death but we already saw this from the PS4 game and this death does kinda come out of the blue, only to serve a moment where Tobey gets stabbed stopping Holland from killing Norman. I can understand the direction, but it did feel like we put Aunt May in the fridge, not so long after Peter got over Tony's death, to make him vengeful towards the end.

Tobey barely encounters Norman While Garfield got some time to chat with Max and Tobey time with Octavius and Flint, it was a shame we didn't retread the baggage that comes with Tobey's Peter and Norman. A minor shame, but still one, especially since he steps in to stop Holland from killing Norman. They don't even exchange in dialogue, despite how a lot of Tobey's character baggage with MJ and Harry come from his confrontation with Norman, we don't get closure on that.

'I was kinda hoping you were black' Small thing but I felt it kinda unnecessary for Max to say this to Garfield. I mean Into the Spider-verse is one of the most popular Spider-Man films, we know about Miles Morales (and very much enjoy his version of Spider-Man), this quote just felt a little bit forced to me, especially if the MCU doesn't intend to build on it.

The Spell's rules are broken almost instantly Remind me, when did Electro find out that Spider-Man was Peter? Better yet, when did Tom Hardy's Venom? Strange said that those were the parameters and yet they still showed up. The spell itself is wonky from the start anyway, it's clear that parameters can be set since Strange has done this spell before which he can remember but not Wong but why do the old parameters still stay mid casting? Why couldn't Strange just cancel the initial versions of the spell like he has done with other versions, it is for lack of a better explanation a convenient plot device. As a result of this spell too it was weird also that Lizard and Octavius don't remember their repenting but it was implied that it was before their defeat. Then came the retcon when suddenly it's okay for the symbiote to stay around, and the idea that everyone will just 'forget' is not so airtight.

According to Jameson's post-battle report, they still remember Spider-Man's actions, just that they don't know it's Peter, so surely people will still connect the dots. Ned, Happy and MJ don't just forget that they worked alongside Spider-Man after all? So wouldn't Ned and MJ retain knowledge of the places they hanged with Spider-Man, remember being with Aunt May and Spider-Man? It seems a bit too convenient that the spell picks and chooses this way. Also there's still that huge mural in his high school, does that get erased? I mean it belongs in-universe so it can't be retconned right? There'd also still be paperwork; blogs, articles, paper trails, Matt Murdock's consultant fees, arrest warrants, negotiation tapes, Mysterio's video, the spell may've erased Peter Parker from memory but there's still physical evidence of his existence and his appearance.

The Ending is a Downer While I expect MJ and Ned to return in the later sequels - since Holland is signed for 2 more movies - it was a bit of a sour taste that we went as close as the MCU could get with the infamous 'One More Day' plot - the main difference being that Aunt May is still dead and Peter was never married anyway. I can understand Peter's reasoning to not involve MJ and Ned, but as I noted earlier they would still remember helping out Spider-Man, it's not exactly an avoidable situation, plus he made a promise to them.

I can see the ending being hit or miss with a lot of fans, but for me it was a miss. We spent a lot of the film with Holland's Peter noting how he needs MJ and Ned for support and kinda proving that he can't do this all alone, only for him to break his promise and try and do this alone. Almost an attempt to combine Raimi and Webb's Spider-Man 1 endings into one, even though Raimi's was earned because Peter was just starting out and Webb's was criticized for quickly deciding to break a dead man's promise, it was kind of a letdown after such an exciting climax we finish with Peter friendless, auntless, no academic career (since nobody will be able to verify that he even went to high school), jobless, without the tech he inherited from the last 2 movies, and without any backup his contributions in the MCU could offer him...but at least he has a new suit?

Spider-Man is still a public enemy in a lot of people's opinion too, the Mysterio stuff still doesn't just up and go away. In terms of progressing the Spider-Man character in the MCU, a lot of it is a step back, Peter is somehow worse off at the end of this film than he was at the start. While it's not awful, it's deflating to end this way for such an anticipated movie.

This, tampers things though right? While it was nice to see the Peters seek to help their enemies, you do have to wonder about the repercussions. With the Goblin gone, Norman will return to his time and likely not die, which will mean Harry won't take over Oscorp and fund Octavius, but since Octavius has to go back too, we'll now have three Raimiverse timelines: untampered, good Norman, and good Octavius (which'd be the same as untampered since Octavius would return to the machine and still have to drown himself), this is the same with Electro being depowered: this'll likely prevent their Goblin from figuring out about Peter and thus Gwen won't die. After going through Endgame and then Loki talking about how you don't mess with the timeline, we seem to continue messing with the timeline.

A TRAILER IS NOT A POST-CREDITS SCENE I'd have rather been told that it was a mid-credits scene and a trailer for a future movie, rather than wait for the credits to roll - desperately needing the bathroom - just to see a trailer of Dr. Strange 2 which will likely be released in a few weeks anyway. Would not want more of that please.

PS: Where's Bruce Campbell? More of a joke criticism, but it was a shame that Campbell had cameos in the full Raimi trilogy - intending for him to be the Raimiverse Mysterio - but didn't sneak in a cameo for this crossover, it probably would've completed it.

What was great about the film

It could be easy to say 'the rest of it' because between Norman being at FEAST all the way to the retconning the film was great. So let's try to break down the specifics of what was great about it.

Hello Charlie The film is full of worst kept secrets, but seeing Charlie Cox's Matt Murdock was still fun to see. Canonizing Daredevil in the MCU once more, I can't be upset that Cox nor Vincent will reprise their roles as the Red-Eyes Blind Devil and the Big Bad Fisk Man in the future. It still gives me hope to see Agents of Shield, Jessica Jones and others will return to canon too, if only a small hope...Quake could certainly work for SWORD with Monica, Carol and the Skrulls right?

Come for the Money, Stay for the Thrill Alfred Molina is iconic as Dr Octopus, and as the first enemy Holland's Peter encounters he definitely makes an impact. Although, angrier and erratic, he still maintained his character and as I predicted earlier proved an asset to the Peters at the end by catching Electro off-guard. While Molina jokes this is a cash-grab role, he makes his minutes worthwhile, only being outdone in the villain department by one other.

Peter vs Strange is visually great There was a lot of fun with the very disgruntled Dr Strange being annoyed by Peter's relentlessness and quick-thinking (conscious or unconscious). Bringing out the reality-bending effects from Doctor Strange made for an entertaining action scene, ending with Peter outwitting Strange with his own unique intelligence and then fanboying over it as he wins the villains' trust. The fight aside too, Peter proving to Strange that people are worth saving even if they're bad was a nice little arc, even if Strange won't remember Peter doing it, this will hopefully bleed into Multiverse of Madness with Wanda and Mordo, but it serves to also show that heroes each have different ideals and priorities which make them stand out without showing off their powers.

Electro is salvaged Jamie Foxx had a bad hand with Amazing Spider-Man 2; blue and poor motivations, Foxx was allowed to portray a more realistic-looking version of Electro while also making his character a little cooler. Don't get me wrong, him getting a power boner was a bit limp, but they salvage it in the end by noting that Max for the most part just wanted to feel like he was important, and thus once again rescuing an iconic villain from the depths.

Ned is magic! While an initial gag, seeing Ned use the sling ring is definitely something I feel we should explore, it became helpful in summoning the Peters and helping him and MJ escape the Lizard. It was a fun little addition which added a new flair to the MCU Spidey friend-trio, Strange did acknowledge his ability to - on a whim remember - do what Strange himself struggled to do after several attempts, the story owes it to Ned to look deeper into this.

Dafoe - unsurprisingly - is amazing I said only one person outshines Molina in the villain department and it is the definitive Spider-Man Villain. If it wasn't clear: Willem Dafoe is a tremendous actor, and his Jekyll & Hyde persona in Spider-Man is excellent and it's on full show in this movie, luring the audience with more sympathy as a broken Norman while doubling down on the evil as the Goblin. His physical, almost pro-wrestler esque brawling with Peter was equal parts scrappy as it was visceral, they make no sugarcoat that Norman is an old man smacking around a teenager, but there's also method in his madness: sneaking goblin bombs that kill Aunt May (part of me hoped he manipulated the original serum to be full Goblin when May injected him) and threaten to break the multiverse. Dafoe's Goblin ended up being the perfect big bad, even if he is 'cured' at the end to repent.

The film knows when to laugh at itself While some of the comedy doesn't land, Electro does try a bit too hard to crack a joke every time, the film was good with poking fun at its own mythos. Electro and Sandman talking about their similar origins, the Peters, Ned promising not to turn evil, Lizard being able to talk, even Otto's name, it did help alleviate the tension and make the fanservice a bit more organic, so it was appreciated the attention put into the jokes, even if some were just direct winks to the camera. Even the mid-credits scene with Hardy's Eddie Brock (and Venom) getting drunk and trying to make sense of the Avengers and Thanos was a nice bit of fun.

Marvel's Worst Kept Secret It feels like it was almost willed into existence by the fandom, but finally we got it: and it was great. Tobey, Andrew and Tom, individually they were a lot of fun in the film, maintaining their own personal charms while also keeping the spirit of Peter Parker intact. I could easily watch the three Spiders just chatting about their experiences for hours, from them freaking out over Tobey's organic webbing, encouraging Andrew's feelings of inferiority, to grasping the concept of the Avengers and still supporting one another in an awkward nerdy manner. The three Spiders delivered together, with their respective villains, and with the other MCU characters such as Ned and MJ, because for this movie to work it absolutely needed to.

Development, Redemption, Closure It would've been very easy to just have gratuitous cameos of Tobey and Andrew to further Tom's story, but each of the Peters got to progress in the story and the previous Spiders got to close their chapter much more neatly than their abrupt franchise endings. After consoling Tom over May's death by sharing their own experiences with their Uncle Bens' deaths, we got to learn that Tobey did indeed make it work with MJ, finding balance between Peter and Spider-Man - which is good enough given how well-rounded Tobey was thanks to having 3 movies rather than 2. It's Andrew who gets the full 'redemption' and closure by successfully saving MJ, a fulfilling and relieving moment for the character which feels earned, Garfield really shows how much it means to him to save someone, but layer it with regret that he couldn't do it with Gwen. Garfield's actions give him closure and allow his character to start opening his Peter side up - just as Tom starts closing off his Peter side when memory of him is removed - which makes it more than just glorified cameos for the Spiders.

Also J Jonah Jameson develops, not in a good way but when he outs Peter you can see that he's in a basement studio with a green screen, and at the end he's now got a full crew and LED board. Unlike Flash's profiteering, it made sense how Jameson would profit from his anti-spiderman propaganda, given how we know this is his character, and he did in fact prove to be a platform and a thorn in the side for Peter when it came to public opinion.

Conclusion

As I said, it's not the greatest Spider-Man movie, but it is definitely a great movie. All the major cast put on a great performance, and while it started slow and ended a bit sadly, it was definitely an experience.

It is worth reminding that there was extremely high expectations for this movie too, everyone wanted the three Spiders, Sinister Six, Daredevil, Strange and the Multiverse, and they got it! Just because expectations were met rather than exceeded should not dissuade you from watching the film with pessimism. This is still a very strong 8.5/10 for me, and with all the Spider-Man media we've been feasting on these last few years with still Across the Spider-Verse and the game sequel still to come, it is still a great time to be a Spider-Man fan.

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miss617 · 7 years

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Re: Shattered Dimensions the Movie

I made a throwaway joke post about this idea long ago, but this post made me realize how much I want it. It would give the past two series some much needed closure, unite all the fans, and thus make Marvel all the monies. For anyone who cares to read, my ideas for such a film are below the cut.

Warning: it's is suuuuper long and basically a Peter/MJ magnum opus.

So, we keep the same basic plot as seen in the game. A Spider-Man breaks a MacGuffin while fighting Mysterio and consequently breaks reality. I would like this to be Raimi!Peter. In the game the "original" Spider-Man (Amazing) breaks the Tablet of Order and Chaos. Raimi!Peter is the original movie Spider-Man. Also? Bruce Campbell as Mysterio. However, there's a better case for MCU!Peter breaking the MacGuffin. The MCU has established supernatural elements, for one thing. Plus he's young and still in the beginning of his hero career so it's understandable if he messes up. We keep Bruce Campbell as Mysterio, though. That's non-negotiable.

So MCU!Peter has broken reality. The pieces of the MacGuffin have spread across the MCU, Raimiverse, and Webbverse. All three Spider-Men must work together to restore order. Their guide is Doctor Strange instead of Madame Webb, because of that one line in Spider-Man 2. For the sake of plot, it's the same Strange in both realities. He got into some shenanigans and ended up in the Raimiverse circa the early 2000s for a bit.

The game keeps the dimensions separate until the very end. A film would probably have them all together around 2/3rds in, at least. That said, each universe should have some time to establish what has happened to Peter since we saw him last. And I am an unrepentant shipper, so I'm going to define the Spider-Men in relation to their respective MJs. I'm not even sorry.

Raimi!Peter: It's been ten years, so I'm confident in saying that he's married to MJ by now. They got married on a hilltop, like he said in Spider-Man 2. We know because there is a picture of it in their house. MJ is in the Lobster-Man phase of her career. Peter has his Daily Bugle staff job from Spider-Man 3. They have a little girl, May, and she's a sort of amalgamation of Mayday and Annie. She has her powers already and wants to help fix reality as "Spider-Girl" but MJ and Peter want her to stay safe. Near the climax someone tries to kidnap MJ because, well, that's what happens in the Raimiverse. MJ tells them "that bit got old ten years ago" and accosts them with a baseball bat. May finishes them off with her ability to repel objects. By the end of the film, Peter and MJ agree that Spider-Girl is pretty much an inevitability. They resolve to support May when the time comes.

Webb!Peter: It's only been a few years so he hasn't changed much, for better or worse. He met his reality's Mary Jane and they're in an on-again-off-again relationship. It's off right now, because he's having commitment issues. He feels it hasn't been long enough after Gwen's death to move on. Throughout the course of the film he learns that it's okay to love MJ. Seeing that they're drawn to each other across realities assures him that his love for her is real. It's different from his love for Gwen, but no less real, much like the other realities are different but real. He also sees what the Raimiverse Peter and MJ have and wants something like it. In particular, he thinks little May is awesome. At some point he rescues Raimi!Gwen. Before swinging off he says "Goodbye, Gwen," indicative of him finally letting her go. In the end he tells MJ that he's Spider-Man, but she's known all along. She wants to know why he's suddenly so trusting. He says it’s because he loves her and can see his future with her and he wants that future, doesn't she? She does.

MCU!Peter: Is the same young dork but with a little more assurance in his heroic abilities. He's starting to realize his affection for MJ (Michelle), but is oblivious to her affection for him. His excuses for not pursuing his feelings range from subpar ("Who has the time?") to fair ("it would be dangerous"). The cross-dimensional adventure only confuses him more. An MJ who is a model/actress? A version of him that's (to him) a super cool skateboarder? He doesn't think either one of these couples can tell him much about him and Michelle. That is, until she calls him "Tiger" (albeit facetiously). His lesson is that he is enough. In two different worlds without the Avengers, New York depends on a version of him. And, though different, each is driven at their core by the same sense of responsibility. He is Spider-Man, and Spider-Man is enough to protect his city. But boy, is he grateful he doesn't have to be.

If this sounds low on villainy, well, I warned you that it was a shipping opus. I know I'd want the Sinister Six to appear in the Webbverse and the Lizard to appear in the Raimiverse. Gotta have that belated payoff to all that set up. The video game has Mysterio turn into a huge Mysterio in the final battle, but that is a very "video game" thing to do. I'm not so good at writing punchy parts, guys, so I apologize in advance if it sounds super cliche.

Mysterio is using his newfound magic powers to terrorize all three versions of New York. He threatens the Spider-Men, saying he will not stop until he gets the other pieces of the MacGuffin. Like in the game, they gather with the intent to trap him but the MacGuffin pulls itself together. There's still a piece missing, but it's complete enough that Mysterio's power is immense.

To subdue the Spider-Men, Mysterio rewrites their realities. Raimi!Peter is a normal dad at the park with MJ, Mayday, Aunt May, Uncle Ben, Harry, and Normie. Webb!Peter is a child again with his parents. MCU!Peter is at home having dinner with Aunt May, Uncle Ben, Tony, and Pepper. But because the MacGuffin isn't complete, Mysterio isn't quite powerful enough. Cracks appear in the new realities. The Spider-Men start to remember inconsistencies.

A new challenger has arrived! Either Miles Morales appears to MCU!Peter or older Mayday appears to Raimi!Peter. The last piece of the MacGuffin was in their universe. I'm leaning towards Mayday for this because, again, I'm writing this like a shipping opus. It's also a good lead in to the "Spider-Girl is inevitable" ending I gave the Raimiverse. That said, I know that an actual film would be much more likely to use Miles. He is probably a "cooler" twist and more recognizable to young audiences. Either way the appearance of the new Spider-Person shatters the false reality. All four Spider-Persons square off (no pun intended) against Mysterio. They win the fight, repair the MacGuffin, and go back to their realities grateful to have met one another.

Post-Credits scene: Mysterio performs a magic show for small children. They're not into it.

#spider man #peter parker #mary jane watson #petermj #spiderman homecoming #spider man spoilers #otp: I just can't walk away #long post #no kidding #it took all night #no exaggeration

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youknowwhoiamassbutt · 2 years

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Time for another Harry Osborn rant!

So, there are so many different versions of Harry out there, all unique and different, many with contradicting personality traits, but they’re all versions of him that are canon and wonderful. In fact, there are so many different variations of his character that I feel there is only one way to get his character wrong (and that is to make him an irredeemable villain). But that’s not why we’re here. We’re here to talk about the one thing that ties all of the Harry’s together, and that’s his insecurities.

Harry is always a very insecure character. There are a few versions that openly express these insecurities all the time, like in some comics and from what I’ve seen of SSM (Spectacular Spider Man). But there are a lot of Harry’s that are extremely confident people like in USM (Ultimate Spider Man) MSM (Marvel’s Spider Man 2017) Webbverse/TASM and Raimiverse. All of them, even the confident and easygoing Harry’s have the same type of insecurity that is often triggered by Peter. They’re all afraid of abandonment so they constantly feel the need to prove their worth to their friends. Harry had always had to fight for Norman’s attention and love; when he wasn’t good enough, Norman ignored him (USM and TASM) or gave him a long speech to guilt him into compliance of what Norman wanted from him(MSM and Raimiverse). Because of either neglect or manipulation, Harry has learned that he has to, not only, prove his worth to his friends, but that he needs to constantly prove his worth, because he truly doesn’t feel worthy at heart and believes that if he stops trying his hardest all the time, his friends will leave him and not want anything to do with him.

The fact that Peter frequently gets busy with Spiderman duties and starts to accidentally ghost Harry, is what often triggers this insecurity and brings them to light. In USM, Peter gets distracted with SHIELD, and is often pulled away from plans he had with Harry against his will. Harry doesn’t know this, so he feels that Peter has suddenly abandoned him for better friends. That’s when we really see Harry start to chase after Norman’s attention and lash out at Peter and Spiderman and get jealous of Peter’s new friend group.

In Raimiverse, Harry’s father dies and Peter ghosts him between the first and second movies out of guilt. Harry feels abandoned by this, he’s just lost the only remaining member of his family and now he’s lost Peter and MJ. He feels like Peter doesn’t care about him, because if he did, he wouldn’t keep taking pictures of Spiderman and sticking up for the wall-crawler. He’s hurt that Mary Jane never loved him the way that she tried to love him, the way that he wanted her to love him, and he’s angry that she seems to favor Peter over him. He feels worthless and forgotten and we see him lash out at Peter a few times and try to kill Spiderman. Luckily, Mary Jane was saved from most of his destructive behavior until he took the Goblin formula.

In TASM, we see Peter reject Harry’s plea for help. Harry’s insecurity that he isn’t enough creeps in, and he goes down a rapid spiral until he becomes the Goblin. There’s not much for me to dissect from this one because of how little of Harry is shown due to the producers or directors (I don’t really know how movies work) wanting to introduce him and give him his arc in only one movie.

In MSM, there’s actually a lot to talk about here and a lot of nuance that meshes together perfectly to create the environment for a Harry-breakdown, so I’ll try to only briefly touch on them without it turning into an incoherent jumble. In the first season, Harry is forced out of the school he loves and wants to attend, by his father’s manipulations. Harry is now isolated from all of the friends he had made and further removed from Peter. Then Peter starts to bail on him because of his Spiderman activities. Harry feels, not only, abandoned by his best friend, but also by the school he loves. Peter further pushes him away when he tries to convince Harry that the only person who had stuck by him, his father, was an evil, bad guy. Harry shows a lot of maturity and strength compared to the other Harry’s in how long it takes him to fully lash out, and how he consistently tries to handle his feelings around Peter, but we do see a lot of moments of jealousy and anger sparked by insecurity from this season. Let’s move on to season two! Harry comes back from a long absence to help Peter/Spiderman with a weapon he designed and an army of goblins or something. He’s very quick to jealousy when he notices Peter’s friendship with Otto. He still feels isolated from Peter and there’s a part of him that feels guilty for secretly furthering his father’s work, and that guilt comes from the feeling of not being worthy of Peter, and the jealousy comes from the fear that Otto is. The final episode of season three really shows us how insecure Harry is. Peter shows him the new WEB building he wants to design, and Harry’s first thought is that he’s not welcome, that Peter only wanted to show him because he was proud, but not because Peter wanted Harry to be a part of it. He hasn’t been around Peter much lately, which means he hasn’t been constantly proving his worth, which to Harry, means Peter doesn’t see him as worth attention and love.

I’m not going to talk about the comics or SSM because I don’t know the plots of those well enough. But in conclusion, Norman Osborn created the one consistent character trait throughout all of the different versions of his son due to the trauma he’s put him through. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

#spiderman #harry osborn #character analysis #raimiverse spider man #webbverse #tasm 2 #ultimate spider man #spectacular spider man #marvel #marvel's spiderman #marvels spider man #marvel's spider-man #I really don't know the exact way that show is spelled

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