While Catelyn chapters are heavy with thoughts of how bastards are threats to trueborn heirs and the Blackfires as examples, the actual text show us that it is actually the trueborn members the ones who are threats.

Alys Kastark right is threatened by her Kastark cousins.

Robert Arryn biggest threat is a far cousin, Harold Harying.

Walder Frey has created the perfect situation where all his trueborn sons want to see their half brothers dead.

Renly usurped Stannis as Robert's heir.

Arianne fears his own brother Quentyn usurping her birthright.

Euron killed Balon.

And the Targaryens are specialists in this.

From the days of Maegor usurping Aenys children. To Jaehaerys pressing his claim over his elder sister. His refusal to name Rhaenys his heir over his second son. Aegon II usurping her sister crown. Viserys II usurping his nieces rights. Aegon V being named king over several candidates who were closer to Maekar IV.

We even have Daenerys in AGOT having thoughts of naming blood riders to protect her sons when he is king while Viserys is still alive.

Frankly a bastard is less likely a threat than a brother/uncle/nephew. It's in the text.

no of fence to jon snow fans who for some reason care about his exact age, but these discussions just annoy me no end. not only bc there's no way any weirwood flashbacks bran has to rhaegar/lyanna will come with time/datestamps, but also bc there's always comments like this:

SEVERAL turns of the moon (ie, months)?! have these people never seen a human baby before or just have no concept of their ages? even if we take into account travel time from the toj to wf, meaning jon was not a newborn too fresh out the oven when catelyn and robb arrived, there's still a difference between a newborn and a 3mo and an even bigger difference between those infants and an older baby 5-7mo. there's very good reasons these lines were cut. whatever birthdates can be worked out internally for jon and robb from when they're first mentioned as 15 and 16 don't matter in the end, bc grrm doesn't care about a consistent timeline and the actual text of catelyn's pov and ned's convo with robert about cheating on her should outweigh any guesstimates about jon's official nameday wrt robb's. catelyn may not have cared for jon, but she would sure as hell have noticed his nameday if it came before robb's and made him ned's firstborn. if jon's birthday canonically came before robb's then either ned's cover story would not involve adultery (not impossible for him to sire a bastard before his wedding), or he'd just give jon a new nameday along with his new name to fit the adultery lie. it makes no sense for him to lie about one and not the other, undermining the big lie with a little public clue of his story not adding up. whatever else she was as a stepmother, cat wasn't stupid and a bastard who was actually the eldest son being raised alongside her trueborn heir could be an even bigger insult than whether he was born of adultery or not.

BUT, the unknowability of jon's true birthday is not the only reason this annoys me, it's bc this is all based on the assumption that jon must be older since rhaegar/lyanna ran off together before ned married cat, as if both boys must have been conceived asap as robb canonically was when his parents consummated their marriage. and that's not how human reproduction works! even if you don't understand how fast babies grow in the first year, you should know that people who get pregnant do so through ovulation cycles and a lucky sperm finding an egg and all that, not just immediately getting knocked up as soon as one has p-in-v sex for the first time. not unless you only know mean girls sex ed where if you have sex you will get pregnant and die. (even tho lyanna did die, there's plenty of canon examples where pregnancy did not lead straight to death. also examples of people who did not get pregnant right away and even some who are/were sexually active and childless without always having moon tea on hand.) we can't know how long lyanna was having sex before that sperm+egg match happened or even how long she was with rhaegar before losing her technical virginity. if they were married, doesn't it make sense to think they didn't consummate their relationship until the wedding night either? that's the only leverage there is to ensure a status as wife rather than just mistress.

and while i just said grrm doesn't care about exact timelines and a lot is still foggy surrounding the rebellion and esp rhaegar, there is one timemarker wrt robert's rebellion he voluntarily threw in, time and time again: that stannis was besieged at storm's end for almost a whole year. that siege, which mind you, did not match the duration of the entire war. it only started after robert won his battles at gulltown and summerhall, returned to storm's end, and then went out and lost the battle of ashford, leaving his homeland open to the reachermen. the same siege which only ended when ned made a detour there after the sack of king's landing, before going to the toj. even if lyanna may not have given birth that exact day ned found her, she could only be waiting in that bloody bed for weeks at the most, not months. so if rhaegar knocked her up the very same night he carried her off and jon was still a newborn when ned found her after the siege of storm's end had ended, wouldn't that mean lyanna was pregnant for well over a year? that's not how human pregnancy works either! so, maybe that's proof that jon and robb, whichever order they were actually born in, were actually very close in age as babies, much closer than if they were both conceived asap.

and really, jon's actual birthdate does not matter imho, when he was raised not just as the bastard to robb's trueborn heir, but with robb also known by catelyn and the world as ned's firstborn (which he was, in any case, as jon was ned's nephew by birth). what difference could a birthdate before robb's make (even were there some means of discovery) after ned, cat, and robb are all dead? if one is looking only at his birth parents then he's only a firstborn child on lyanna's side, but definitely a second son on rhaegar's side. maybe he was always meant to be a second son with a not much older half-brother! even if the aegon fka young griff is not in fact rhaegar's son, he'll still be known as aegon vi targaryen, meaning jon will never be known as any father's elder son. if i may reference mean girls again, it's not going to happen.

Post-Dance AU (because I hate how George decided to completely eradicate the Greens *cough* Alicent’s *cough* line)

Jaehaera survives the assassination attempt by Unwin Peake because that poor girl did not deserve that horrific end and that’s that.

She and Aegon III bond over time, because these traumatized kids deserve some happiness and you know what? Maybe they are the only two people in the world right now who understand even a semblance of what the other has gone through (Aegon watched his mother die, Jaehaera watched her twin brother be slaughtered) and maybe they both recognize that neither of them is responsible for what their families did to each other so why should they resent one another?

Over time they become a great comfort to each other. On the days where one is particularly gloomy, the other sits by them and holds their hand and they are content to sit in silence together and neither needs to say what they’re feeling because the other already knows.

They are both very close with Gaemon Palehair. He and Aegon are close for the same reasons as within canon, while Jaehaera believes that Gaemon truly is her half-sibling, her last remaining brother.

Eventually, Alyn Velaryon brings Viserys II home from Essos, but the boy comes alone (a 12-year-old boy married to a 19-year-old woman, yeah I think the fuck not, not in my history, and besides even if they had been closer in age Larra Rogare hated Westeros so let her stay in Essos like she wanted and live her own life there and be happy).

Like in canon, Aegon is somewhat neglectful of his wife and friend in the wake of his brother’s return, but Jaehaera and Gaemon understand his actions. Anyway, they still have each other for company. Viserys is incredibly distrustful of Jaehaera, and Aegon pleads with Viserys to be more understanding of their marriage and the comfort they have found in each other.

Aegon decides to hold a feast to celebrate Viserys’s return. Viserys spends most of the festivities with Baela and Rhaena, preferring not to fraternize with the daughter of the man who killed his mother. In the company of his sisters is Daenaera Velaryon (aged up in to be closer in age to Viserys because an 11-year-old boy and a 6-year-old girl? It’s a no from me).

Daenaera manages to cheer Viserys with her happy nature, and he’s quite taken by how pretty she is. Unwin Peake, having never been exposed as the one behind Jaehaera’s assassination attempt (as is also the case in canon) brings his daughter to the feast in the hopes that she will catch the eye of Viserys, but Viserys has already taken a shine to Daenaera, ruining his plans once again.

The pair begin to exchange letters and (like Aegon and Jaehaera) bond over their losses. Viserys tells Aegon about his correspondence with Daenaera, and when Aegon tells Jaehaera, she decides to invite Daenaera to court as her lady-in-waiting. Viserys is delighted, and slowly begins to warm to Jaehaera.

As in canon, Aegon’s removal of the dragon eggs from the Red Keep causes a rift between the brothers. Unwin Peake continues to plot treason, conspiring to kill Aegon and Jaehaera so that Viserys may become King and take his daughter as his bride. But if his daughter is to become Viserys’s Queen, Daenaera Velaryon must also be removed. It is no secret by now that Viserys is very taken with the the girl, and intends to marry her.

Jaehaera and Daenaera eat the canonical poisoned tarts during a private dinner organized for the four. Aegon and Viserys narrowly avoid poisoning as they are delayed by a Small Council meeting. As in canon, Gaemon dies, devastating both Aegon and Jaehaera. The rift between Aegon and Viserys is mended as they help their respective ladies recover. Aegon and Jaehaera comfort each other through the loss of Gaemon, and Viserys proposes marriage to Daenaera, which she accepts. Oh, and Unwin Peake is finally exposed and executed (I still cannot believe this man escaped justice in canon, but not on my watch).

The four form a strong unit within the Red Keep and are, well, as happy as four traumatized young adults can be. They finally have the family each was deprived of at such a young age. Aegon eventually names Viserys his Hand, Jaehaera gives birth to Aegon’s five children, and Daenaera gives birth to Viserys’s three.

But unfortunately, canonical events must still come to pass. Aegon and Jaehaera pass away within months of each other in 157 AC; Daenaera dies some years later, and Viserys becomes his stern canonical self in the wake of her death. The crown passes from Aegon, to Daeron, to Baelor, to Viserys himself, to Aegon IV, who legitimizes the Blackfyres- who are now the descendants of both the Blacks and the Greens.

The only difference between Otto and Corlys is that the show wants you to root for the Blacks and not the Greens. They did the same thing essentially: pushing for their daughter to marry the king in order to get close to the throne and advocating for the interests of their family above all others. Yet somehow Otto is evil for doing so and Corlys is a great family man 🤔

Seeing the bigoted discourse around HotD as an Indigenous woman from an interracial extended family, one full of 'illegitimate' circumstances of births that the Canadian government has always been SO eager to weaponize, and especially as the daughter of a 60s scoop survivor who found his way back to his birth family which means we navigate belonging to two families, of two different races, in two different ways... it's actually hurtful and a little scary to see all the vitriol levelled against fictional 'illegitimate' children by a MODERN audience.

This is a weird example but it's also the most famous. You know that saying about how you shouldn't insult Trump for his body because he'll never hear or be hurt by it, but the people around you who might share those traits will? How when you insult a powerful or abstract figure in a really low way, that insult is not just for them?

Well, when you express bigotry over fictional characters, obviously said fictional character isn't going to receive it. But real people who share those traits will.

I swear, I know I'm basically setting myself up for a never ending 'to write' list at the moment, but I do intend to someday dive into the subject and SHAME the bigots.

viserys and rhaenyra are genuinely such an interesting dynamic to me because like. to everyone else she's clearly the favorite, but the first time she ever attempts to gainsay him because he didn't tell her about the arranged marriage, that ends with her on her knees begging for his forgiveness.

Seeing people saying Westeros has a feudal system as to why Rhaenyra shouldn't be queen

It's medieval history, if a King tells you to dance before him you WILL. If a King desires his daughter to rule and for you to obey his wishes guess what? You WILL.

Like fine most people aren't familiar with historical EU monarchies but for fuck sakes don't use the book analogy to back your theory up cause Aegon IV is right there sis...

jace cole doesn’t make any sense time wise at all but the parallels and themes people the parallels and themes

Oh li lianhua is the true royal descendant shan gudao is just some commoner tryhard who's so bitter he'll never be good enough the good are the powerful the bad are the weak who don't know their place jealousy is what destroys societies oooh he just accepted payment from Xiangyi's True Brother he was just a lowly rat who wasn't grateful enough xiangyi wasnt a real poor street rat he came from a Good Family. Cool.

"princess rhaenys targaryen would have made westeros a better place to live if she had been chosen as jaehaerys's heir" how? literally how? what material evidence can you point to in the character of rhaenys that shows a desire or even remote interest to use the throne to better the lives of the people or the state of the country in any way? what proof can you even attempt to give that rhaenys being installed as heir would have made life better for westeros at large? how, in specific, would rhaenys being queen have made life better for the people of westeros as a whole and made it a better place to live for everyone, not just courtiers in the red keep?

Honestly, hotd making the kids so obviously not laenor's is making everyone look so dumb...

the gendry in a boat scene is so funny to watch when you know he's just going to be rowing forever, never to be mentioned again

I’ve never really seen anyone talking about this, but I noticed that one of the main reasons why I am team green is because team green feels like an actual team that is in this whole thing together.

Team Green feels connected, united, like a family.

Team Black on the other hand is… meh.

And let me explain why:

Rhaenyra being delusional and thinking that Daemon is actually in love with her when he literally just groomed her since she was a child because he has always been after her title and now wants to be her king consort. They have one of the most toxic, creepy and problematic relationships in the entire fucking show.

Then there is the very awkward and uncomfortable moment of Rhaenyra and Daemon having sex on Laena’s funeral, while Rhaenys, Corlys, Baela, Rhaena and Laenor are mourning the loss of their daughter, mother and sister. How fucking disrespectful is this. And then the fact that they have Laenor “killed” just so they can get married and have their own perfectly blonde targaryen babies.

And Rhaenyra lying about Jace, Luke and Joff to everyone in her very own “team”, trying to gaslight not only Corlys, and Rhaenys but also her own sons into thinking they are trueborn, when even Jace himself. as a child, starts asking questions.

Then there are obviously Rhaenys and Corlys, who for some fucking reason neglected their trueborn granddaughters in favor of some dark haired white bastards their daughter-in-law is trying to pass off as their son’s children. Rhaenys is trying sooo hard to please her misogynistic husband because he so desperately wants his name to go down in history. Then the disrespectful betrothal of Jace and Luke to Baela and Rhaena. Rhaenyra is literally robbing these poor girls of their rightful claim to Driftmark and usurping them. And now, with Luke being dead, Rhaena’s claim dies with him.

Baela and Rhaena losing their mother, and now their father suddenly remarries, and has two blonde boys. Rhaenys losing BOTH her children and then seeing her son-in-law and daughter-in-law getting married soon after that.

Everyone in team black is after their own ambitions. They lie to each other, they don’t trust each other, they suspect each other in different things, they cheat on each other (with each other) and lie about it, they give each other forced ultimatums, and yada yada. All their scenes feel forced, tense, awkward and uncomfortable. They look so miserable with each other.

Team Green in this sense is the exact opposite.

Although their dynamic is far from perfect, obviously, you cannot deny that they care about each other very very deeply.

Alicent loves all of her children, and even while acknowledging their flaws, she still loves them.

Aemond might’ve been a little envious of Aegon, but he would never turn his back on him. He would never betray his brother, be would never try to take his crown from him.

Aegon was far from being a perfect man and king, but, as we know, it was his love for his family, and the fear of them getting hurt that made him a more responsible person and a more protective father, husband and brother. Sure, he is a cheater, but at least he’s honest about it and doesn’t lie to his wife. He is not a hypocrite.

Criston is working for Alicent not for ambition or for self-gain, but because he genuinely loves her, whether it’s romantic or platonic, doesn’t matter.

Helaena would never betray her family, her brothers, her mother. They are all she has. She would never switch sides even if given an opportunity.

And even Otto, arguably one of the main villains of the whole show, still loves his family. Sure, he is ambitious, but he would never become Corlys level of ambitious.

Team Green feels like they are fighting against the enemy all together, they have the same goals, they feel united and you can feel their devotion to each other. Especially after blood and cheese, when they become closer than ever. They’re in this together and only if they stick to each other, they can make it. It feels genuine and honest. They don’t hide anything from each other, they always have their loved ones’ best interests at heart, they would never in a million years betray each other. Yes, they are all doomed from the start, but their dedication and love to each other is truly something else.

"Alicent's son sits my throne"

That's your brother , your father's firstborn son , a trueborn prince of the realm now King crowned by the septon. He is King because he is his father's son who was a King that's how it works in westeros that's how your daddy became King because the realm didn't want Rhaenys as Queen. Thats the same way you wanted your son to be lord of driftmark and not baela because she was corlys' daughter's daughter- what is so difficult to understand here ??????

i think the biggest problem i have with the whole team discourse in f&b + hotd is that it isn’t just about which characters you like more/who you want to sit on the throne at that end; it’s that each side is fighting for completely different ideologies, regardless of one members personal beliefs. grrm could not have made it anymore clear.

team black isn’t just fighting for rhaenyra to be queen, they’re fighting for the monarch’s right to choose an heir, for the oaths they swore years before, for the complete opposite of precedent/tradition: the king’s word is law. team green isn’t just fighting for aegon to be king, they’re fighting for tradition, that no matter the words of a king being law sons will always come before daughters, that oaths are fickle and don’t matter. each side is in some way fighting back against what’s already been established for the kingdom, but the end goal is completely different.

we’re not given as much insight into why most of the houses initially sided with rhaenyra, but we do have an inkling into how the green council felt and acted, however. jaehaerys choosing baelon over rhaenys (against andal tradition, the king can choose his heir) is one point. the great council of 101 is another. alicent, despite being the leader of the council, is removed from the equation and shoved off to the side when it comes to swearing oaths of loyalty between the members on account of her womanhood. daemon being a second coming of ‘maegor’ (despite what we know would be a better suited title for aemond, but i digress) is also used. when discussing who would side with them the vale is automatically disqualified from the list, due to them presently being ruled by a woman, jeyne arryn. she doesn’t choose to fight for rhaenyra for the sole reason of them being kin, but because her own right to rule can and will be put into question if aegon steps over rhaenyra. because she is a woman. she does so in spite of her dislike for daemon (and his supposed maegor-ness) too.

even if one were to look at each characters personal feelings about the succession the fact of the matter is that rhaenyra is usurped because she is a woman. it’s stated almost blatantly multiple times before and during the war. the greens use scapegoats and smokescreens in attempts justify it (her ‘bastards’ chief among them, but legally her sons live and die as the trueborn children between her and laenor, with the reminder that septon eustace refutes this claim to begin with). even when she is killed grrm has her breast pricked to arouse a dragon that doesn’t want to kill her (and why is that?). aegon ‘wins’ against her and is king, but then why is jaehaera, as his last living remaining child not named his heir? why is aegon iii put ahead of her, despite being the enemies son? these are rhetorical questions. aegon had no plans to ever consider her his heir, he made it clear with how excited he was to marry cassandra baratheon and produce more ‘strong’ sons. his dragon (who had fought and bled for him the entire war) wasn’t mourned properly, he couldn’t wait to hatch a ‘new dragon, prouder and fiercer than the last.’ yet he wasn’t even capable of doing that in the six months before he too was killed.

it’s also safe to mention that grrm created an entire separate lore story, one that would seem to have no bearing on the original story unless you’re capable of understanding symbolism. the amethyst empress is usurped by her younger brother the bloodstone emperor, and the first long night ensues from this decision. rhaenyra (amethyst = arryn blue + targaryen red) is usurped by her younger brother aegon ii (bloodstone = hightower green + targaryen red) and the dying of the dragons, the very creatures needed to stop the next long night, are eradicated, along with the magic needed to hatch them and keep them alive (until). the war is the blacks (power, death, grief, rebellion, restraint) versus the greens (ambition, greed, jealousy, anger, wealth). the amethyst empress is important to the main story in the same way that rhaenyra is important, that snubbing the women (an integral aspect to the power the targaryens held) of house targaryen can lead only to disaster. daenerys is the key, the one to break the cycle and fix the wrongdoings caused by her ancestors obsession with power. mother of dragons, mhysa, breaker of chains, slayer of lies, daughter of death, the dragon queen, azor ahai come again, the prince that was promised will bring the dawn.

you can argue for technicalities sake all day, but there is a meaning to this story beyond the scope of rightful heirs. and it shouldn’t be shoved off to the side just so you can praise your favorites and hate those who go against them. it makes for a poor consuming of the actual story. fire and blood was created as a history book to expand on daenerys as a character. her family, what and where she’s come from, and how she relates to them. she’s the antithesis to every targaryen that’s come before her, a hero in her own right. the only targaryen’s we can say are radically important to dany’s story are the conquerors (aegon the conqueror with teats) and rhaenyra (the amethyst empress). i don’t know, just some food for thought.

Jacaerys Velaryon, a Prince of questionable parentage (whether it be true or false), turned out to be 10 times the man/leader than any one of Alicent’s “trueborn” sons (Aegon the Usurper, Aemond One-Eye, and Daeron the Useless) could ever be.

- confirmed by Green biased Maesters as well.

I love how GRRM addresses the issue of parentage here, and shows how children born under questionable circumstances can rise to be better than children born “the correct way”.

It also shows how simple-minded people in the Middle Ages used to be, believing that only children born from a sanctified union, could ever be worth something.

It’s not a coincidence that GRRM made Rhaenyra’s sons good, well-mannered, brave and loyal, while Alicent’s sons are all despicable, rude, anger-driven, and overall huge disappointments (yes, Daeron too. He ended up showing his true colors. Bitterbridge never forgets).