#things writers can learn
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do you consider your self made?
#my art#self portrait of sorts#been musing a lot on disability recently and how being relatively freshly unable to do Most Things has changed my perspective on things#for a long time growing up i was fixated on the idea of being An Impact On The World yknow? mainly the next Big Writer#(and that it would be sooo impressive that everyone would make my books bestsellers when i was only 12 because it was That Good)#and i mean. obviously that didnt work out as originally planned because i was 12 and learning. but I've felt a lot like#I've kind of built my sense of self on those big achievements. even if they were only big to me. and a lot of them#are now out of reach or very difficult to reach. and it's been a lot to. recontextualize#to take what ive been told my whole life and ignore it in favor of just being being enough.#things will happen as they happen. i havent earned anything by suffering but it hasnt ended the world either#im here doing what i Can do for as long as I'm able to do it. and thats all i need to be for now#just making sure that i Do do the things i can do rather than assume i can do them later#anyways. love you#cw:#top nudity#artistic nudity#the dreaded ambiguously presenting nipple#if you put any pro weight loss eating disorder shit on here ill kill you btw#my body is sexy because im in it and im still alive. not because its struggling to stay that way#lindwormposting
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having fun with colors for once :P
thanks @creepycoffins for the awesome dtiys :D
#creepycoffinsdtiys#trigun#millions knives#vash the stampede#i haven't drawn nearly enough knives. posted him even less#him and vash are so fun to draw :P ik they have the same face but it's like. fun to experiment with how different i can make them look yk#also admittedly. did most of this at work during downtime so if it looks funky..... my bad#the lighting isn't the greatest aight?? it's night shift and there's no windows but they do dim the lights#i did do the limited coloring i did at home lol. wasnt gon bring more art supplies to work#trying to get back into the swing of things with my drawing. i got myself a huion display for my birthday this year!#on top of my traditional i wanna do more animated stuff#primarily animated bc honestly i don't really wanna learn digital painting or whatever. im not interested in that and i like my harsh style#i'd also like to do more original work. i think last year was literally just trigun fanart lmfaoo#we'll see how things turn out ig#i'm not really holding myself to doing anything bc i don't see that turning out well. i am applying myself to more fan projects at the leas#tho those i'm applying more as a writer lmfao#well anyway. enough about me. i actually really like the drawing this was based off of! i didn't include the full body designs#and tbh vash's design is almost entirely cut out just cuz how the pose worked out :(#so i would highly suggest checking out the original art by the person i tagged!#and their other art's pretty banging as well :D
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write. it doesn't have to be good, it doesn't even have to be a story. write a sentence, a fragment, a phrase, a thought. write something. write anything. write.
and be proud of yourself that you did.
#writeblr#writers on tumblr#spilled ink#reminders to self#i've been so busy and exhausted this past week that i've been beating myself up over the fact that i haven't written or read anything#but... i've been living; i've been sitting with my exhaustion#trying to find words to describe it; i've been meeting new people and doing new things#i've been learning to apologize when i say something terrible to someone i love#and aren't these all things that aid in writing? in creation of any kind?#to feel the full spectrum of human emotion -- that's the most important thing for a writer#to feel things so you can take those feelings and experiences and put them in your writing#and in that vein im writing lil headcanon things for zoro and sanji#and also for tears of themis babes LOL#🌧 raindrops
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I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way but i recently reread the entire familiar au (its as amazing as always!) and its so impressive to see how far you have come as a writer especially compared to the new cult au its honestly pretty inspiring
Thank you! It's truly nice to hear that I've made progress. I mean, obviously - hopefully - I would have after all this time, but sometimes the improvement is hard to see when you're so close to it.
#answers#I've been tempted at times to just take down some of my really old stuff#Because I am very 😬 when I reread it#But I think it stands as a nice relic/testament to how I've grown as a writer#In that I only roll around in agony about 90% of the time reading current writing now as opposed 575% with the old stuff#It feels like I don't know what I'm doing at any given time#But presumably I've learned SOMETHING#And my writing is not The Worst™#Funny how the baseline changes as skill changes because it's hard to remember sometimes that yes#Skill has improved!!#I say as I stare at this document with severe doubts and worry and agony#Nothing like looking at a 5k doc and going 'yeah this is only halfway to the end at BEST'#There is so much more yet to complete#Also super nice to hear that the cult thing is good to read#It's got a lot more visuals than my usual so I'm pushing my comfort zone#I am Not A Visual Person so that takes some Effort#All of these tags have been very navelgazing so here's a fun fact#If *I* can get better at writing by doing it for a long time#YOU can do it TOO and BETTER#It just takes - again - a lot of writing to get there
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Do you ever think about how Fakir, after him and Ahiru finally broke everything that kept the town of Goldkröne in the ghostly hands of its writer, after they finally have some air of peace over the town finally being able to live in its intended early 2000s environment, that Fakir still feels at times like it's not real and that for a while he fears that if he closes his eyes it'll be back in Drosselmeyer's control. Like it just doesn't feel real to him during that first year of calm, until he feels the dull pain on his recovering hand injury and Ahiru who follows him without a pendant anywhere to be found.
He doesn't feel it's real, the calm finality of this town, but he makes sure to feel the scar on his hand. And he makes sure to hold the little duck and realize that she is who she has always been. Him and the town are finally living peacefully.
#dia talks#princess tutu#He probably starts planning on writing Ahiru into the world mayyybe like 3-4 months into his recovery#he doesn't know what a cell phone is yet but he sure as hell can look at a bookstore and ask for a notebook and pens#i bet that first year in Goldenkröne must be hell because trading deals bring all sorts of new things into the town#Just Fakir going “what the fuck is a scooter?? Wait what's a CAR---”#he ends up having to read a bunch of newspaper articles about “Goldenkröne booming in German tourism!”#Actually does he even know his country's name... Did they all even know they lived in Germany and not JUST a city????#Drosselmeyer would've really pulled one on them for only talking about the city and its outskirts and NOT the country it resided in#But let's assume they did know. Fakir would have to figure out so much has changed in 2002 Germany compared to whatever time they were in#My god just thinking about the thought of Fakir learning what a television is... or a radio for that matter has me howling internally#local amateur writer is put into a coma after hearing for the very first time german rapper Sido#alternatively: local amateur writer's brain explodes after hearing german Happycore artist Blümchen and dance pop group No Angels#ptutu spoiler#i know its a +20 old show but just in case people wanna watch it i love it enough to tag the post show headcanon#ptutu analysis#ptutu headcanon#ptutu post canon#Also sorry i keep jumbling between Goldkröne and Goldenkröne in the writing its 4 AM and the german part of my brain is a mess lmao#(its supposed to be Goldkröne but for some reason I keep making it into the attribute word Golden so dont mind the mistake)#(if you do i will sob please be gentle towards my polyglot self)
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Hi Bel,
I keep seeing comments about people complaining about the quality of destiny’s writing and story in the last few weeks. I haven’t really engaged with destiny since season of defiance, what’s currently gotten everyone so riled up? I thought that people were enjoying Season of the Deep/Witch in terms of narrative, why is Season of the Wish causing people to deride the destiny writing staff again?
I don't know!
Deep and Witch have been absolute bangers in every aspect to me. I've been enjoying all interactions and lore tabs we've received. A lot of them are stuff that we've never had before, a lot of reunions and closures, a lot of development and interactions between characters who you wouldn't really think would have much in common.
Sloane's return and healing from what she's been through has been fantastic, Drifter opening up with her to help her because he also got help from others was fantastic, Sloane reuniting with Aisha and Shayura brought me to tears (Shayura's descent into madness was triggered by immense trauma of Sloane staying on Titan and Titan disappearing), everything with Sloane and Zavala...
Witch was just incredible in every single way; the focus on Eris, the amount of Eris and Ikora content!!!!! Everything about Xivu and Savathun and their interactions together!! Eris finally fulfilling her goal she promised Savathun YEARS ago, getting that closure.
Wish so far has been equally great to me. All the new stuff about Ahamkara is amazing, finally giving us proof for long-standing speculation about Ahamkara and how they aren't universally evil creatures and expanding on them as a species. I love all interactions we've had so far; finally we have Petra back, Mara's singleminded focus on figuring out how to defeat the Witness and her continuous work to improve as a person, ALL SJUR MENTIONS!!!!! I won't talk about the "leak" because we have no context for it so I will wait for the full story to be revealed before I can pass judgment; something that I think should be a lesson to learn from this entire year. Maybe wait for the story to finish before judging the story.
Literally everything this past year that involves Osiris, but especially this season now that he's back in his element with the Vex. And of course every little detail we get of him and Saint. Osiris honestly shaped this year for me with everything that he's done to uncover the biggest mysteries. I think a big reason is that a lot of people just don't like Osiris, which I consider a massive skill issue.
Other than that, I don't know what are the issues people have besides just not being interested in any of these storylines and attributing it to a nebulous "bad writing" claim. I also genuinely believe that way too many people get wrapped up too much in fandom, imagine storylines they want to see and then get disappointed when the actual story doesn't go there. Almost like people forget that this isn't their story and these aren't their characters. A lot of it is also fandom completely warping characters into not what they actually are and then feeling like the canon story is the one that's wrong.
Whatever is the reason, I guess everyone is entitled to their perspective of the story and everyone is free to explore the story in different ways through fanfics and AUs and whatever. I do that too!
But I would definitely ask people to be normal with how they engage in criticism, especially in the current state of affairs. Writers are developers; they experience a ton of harassment and negativity from the community and also from inside the company. And they are online: they can see what we're saying. It's been documented that community commentary has been used to harass writers:
Imprint this into your brain and never forget what these people had to go through. Let's not forget also the way people treated Seth Dickinson on social media when he was active with Destiny fans. "Fans" were actively arguing with him about his own work (telling him that HE is wrong) and were utterly disgusting towards him when he tried explaining what he wrote. His works are now hailed as the best writing in Destiny and people want him back. If I were him, I wouldn't want to come back ngl, not with how he was treated and not with how fans are still treating writers (and hey, Seth wrote LF Collector's Edition! So he was back, technically, this year!). Let's not forget that a lot of writers are members of various marginalised groups. And I'd definitely not want to go back with zero support from leadership.
Which is also an important aspect for all developers, including writers: sometimes they have orders they may not like, but can't argue against. They do the best they can with what they're given, the time they have and directions they receive. And with that in mind, I am enjoying everything we've gotten this year, obviously with some specific complaints about things I didn't particularly enjoy (like the universally mid reception of Defiance; I've spoken about my gripes with it before, a big one being the shafting of Suraya who should've at least been mentioned in a lore tab).
I can tell that there is passion in their work, even if maybe they would prefer to do more with it, but can't. Maybe even if they want to take different routes, but can't. But from what we got, I can feel that they care about this world and these characters. I can tell that someone lovingly wrote about Sloane and her friendships with two grieving women. I can tell that they deeply cared about Sloane's friendship with Zavala and that they loved showing us Saint and Drifter caring about a fellow trauma survivor.
I can tell that the writers are immensely careful and loving towards Eris; everything she went through was crafted with love and passion from both writers and her VA. Eris' story is such a fundamental aspect of Destiny and I can tell that this was important to the writing team and that they gave her everything they could to do justice to her character and her arc and her healing and her release from the cycle she was trapped in for so long.
I can tell that there are writers who care a lot about Osiris and Saint and their relationship. I can tell that someone cared a lot about expanding on Ahamkara and giving them more personalities. I can tell that someone cared DEEPLY about Sjur and Mara and that her repeated mentions are the passionate work of writers who want us to remember her.
I could go on. And I know that not everyone sees it this way, which is fine; we all have different ways of perceiving stories. I enjoy discussing things we in the fandom disagree on and I enjoy hearing different perspectives! Unfortunately, this has recently become rarer and rarer. And for the love of god, please try and treat writers with some respect, especially now, especially those who are still working and doing their best with the shitty situation they're in. None of the cries of "poor devs" ring true to me unless the same is given to writers, instead of treating them like punching bags.
#destiny 2#long post#for the record: yeah i also have some gripes with some writing decisions. it's normal#but i feel like those are things that i can learn to accept or let go or even have my mind changed with a different perspective#or by just accepting that the writing team was limited in some way and that this was the best they could do#it happens to every story at some point#and yeah capitalism is the death of art. destiny's story would be better from start to finish if it weren't a shooter mmo#but that ship has sailed a long time ago. like. in 2014.#it's honestly a miracle that we got even a fraction of the stuff we got considering the target audience of fps mmos#and it's fine if this just isn't good enough to some. happens#but i think we can move on without being shitty about devs yeah?#in all likelihood writers may even agree that some of the stuff they had to write isn't the best or isn't what they wanted#calling them bad writers over circumstances we don't understand is just shitty#just like it's shitty to do it to any other dev over bugs in the game or badly implemented features or whatever#none of these people are sitting at their desks maliciously laughing while deliberately creating 'bad' things#and this is especially bothering me for writers because of how atrocious people are to artists of all kinds#almost like writers had to strike this year to be respected and treated as people that matter
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i do think as writers and creatives we would all benefit from letting ourselves embrace and enjoy being a beginner at something. and not just in a "because one day you will improve and see how far you've come" way but actually enjoying being an amateur at something in the moment. embracing the fun and excitement of something new even if you don't really know anything yet. like i'm making a worldbuilding bible for the first time and do i have any idea what i'm doing? no. am i having fun? absolutely
#what's that thing where it's like it can be harder/less enjoyable to be intermediate than a beginner#because becoming aware of your improvement makes you more hyperaware of where specifically you're struggling#anyway being a beginner is so fun i think all of us should be beginners more often#don't think about your lack of experience or knowledge compared to others just have fun because yayyy shiny new thing to play around with#also i dont believe in the scale of beginner to advanced writer really!!!#like yes i would say i'm 'experienced' but only in some ways! like litfic and flash and character development#im absolutely a beginner when it comes to proper novel writing or speculative worldbuilding#that's not to diminish anybody's hard work or progress it's just to say that beginner and advanced are not too far off separate entities#they're things you can be simultaneously and i think its actually very beneficial to be simultaneously#because you should never believe you are Too Experienced or Too Knowledgeable to keep learning new things#trying a new angle of writing as a beginner will teach you things about writing you won't learn from#and staying where you have the most experience etc#and also its just fun! mix it up!! try new things!! be free#even if its just a silly little side project
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i'm only kinda sorry but if i'm reading fanfic and the writer puts faith in a dress without a Very Good Reason (ex. the mayor made her wear it, she's trying to impress buffy, she's a bridesmaid in somebody's wedding) i am taken out of it so quickly. that tiny detail bugs me so much what are you even doing?? faith hates dresses!!!! free her!!!!!
#faith lehane#fuffy#btvs#buffy the vampire slayer#she was only in 26 episodes and yeah her writing can be kinda all over the place but this is one very solid thing we learn about her#it just feels like such a fundamental misunderstanding of the character#like the writer went 'girls wear dresses. the end.' and just moved on#did u even watch the show??#do you even know faith lehane??#btw i am joking#im not trying to be a bitch and of course i would never leave a comment on somebodys work because its obvious they worked hard on it#tbh a lot of the time the fics are Really Good besides this one detail so actually. good job writers youre doing great!!!#i just needed to scream into the void for a sec#as a fellow girlie (gn) who hates being forced to wear a dress#beatrice.txt
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still pressed about the fact that rhett is literally the ONLY substantive character who now knows about the hole/time travel but whose discovery (and impact) of this information we didn't get to see. cecilia, autumn, perry, billy, luke, wayne, joy. we witnessed this life changing shift for each of them and the profound effect it had. but not rhett. that's some fucking bullshit
#they really said look ...#him learning something that radically alters his understanding of life and how the world works isn't our main priority right now#he really wanted to leave town with his gf of one day#and we NEED you to understand how important it is that he can't do that now#the whole getting out of town/motel thing should have been wrapped up in the truck when he told her he couldn't leave#he goes back to the ranch where he can be involved in the main plot#having meaningful convos and interactions about what's going on#and they could still explore the disappointment him and maria feel about their plans not working out just in a less irritating way#the writers need to jump in the hole so they can go back and re-write his storyline#unless it was the new showrunners decision idk exactly how that works#rhett abbott#outer range#lewis pullman
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Come on! Show me the real Sun Wukong. The old you would have leveled this whole mountain range to stop me! But you're scared of hurting some kid? Pathetic! After all Sun Wukong has but you through, how much he has let you down, you would still meet your fate trying to protect him! He doesn't deserve such loyalty, yet you insist on learning the hard way just as I did—I should have never trusted the Monkey King! The false sage, equal to nothing!
#One thing you learn cataloguing parallels in lmk is that the writers can not help themselves when it comes to 1x09#everything parallels 1x09#like oh my god#That's all they do#Literally going to throw up like. MK being protected in s1 and MK protecting Wukong in s4#there is something about both of them using their bare hands to do it that just. Oughghg.#lmk#lego monkie kid#lmk parallels#lmk MK#lmk SWK#the light is no mystery
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Me writing a fic where characters have to get to a certain location: should they get there by plane?
*searches for flights to the location to write an actual flight number in the fic even when it doesn’t matter. Like at all*
*opens another tab to see which airport is closest to their destination*
Me: hmmm maybe it’s better if they take a bus
*opens another tab to search for bus tickets, schedules and prices*
Me: but I hate traveling by bus
Me: what about Amtrak?
*opens another tab to search for tickets, schedules and prices*
Me: hmm they might not get there on time
*opens another tab*
#this is why it takes me so long to finish a fic#I need everything to be accurate#or as accurate as possible even if it’s a small portion of the fic#or even if I can just avoid the whole thing by just setting the scene somewhere else#but I do learn a lot of useless shit so 😌#writer things#cat pls
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I wish more fanart for secert shanghai existed, like where r the artists hiding out???
#i am what u call a writer#so yk art drawing not my thing#honestly i am the type of person to learn how to draw so that i can make fanart#chloe gong#foul lady fortune#secret shanghai#foul heart huntsman#these violent delights#last violent call#our violent ends
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I have to wonder how many people celebrating AI translation also complain about "broken English" and how obvious it is something was Google translated from another language without a fluent English speaker involved to properly clean up the translation/grammar.
Because I bet it's a lot.
I know why execs are all for it—AI is the new buzzword and it lets them cut jobs thus "save" money and not have to worry about pesky labour laws when one employs humans—but everyone else?
There was some outcry when Crunchyroll fired many of their translators in favour of AI translation (with some people to "clean up the AI's work") but I can't help but think that was in part because it was Japanese-to-English and personally affected them. Same when Duolingo fired many of their translators in favour of LLM translation. Meanwhile companies are firing staff when it's English to another language and there's this idea that that's fine or not as big a deal because English is "easy" to translate and/or because people don't think of how it will impact people in non-English countries.
Also it doesn't affect native English speakers so it doesn't get much headway in the news cycle or online anyway because so much of the dominant media is from English-speaking countries and English-speakers dominate social media.
But different languages have different grammar structures that LLMs don't do, and I grew up on "jokes" about people speaking in "broken English" and mocking people who use the wrong word when it was clearly a literal translation but the meaning was obvious long before LLMs were a thing, too. In fact, the specific way a character spoke broken English has been a way to denote their native tongue for decades, usually in a racist way.
Then Google translate came out and "Google-translated English" became an insult for people and criticism of companies because it was clearly wonky to native speakers. Even now, LLMs—which are heavily trained on English compared to other languages—don't have a natural output so native English speakers can clock LLM-generated text if it's longer than a sentence or two.
But, for whatever reason, it's not seen as a problem when it goes the other way because fuck non-English readers or people who want to read in their native tongue I guess.
#and it's not like no people were doing translations so wonky translations were better than nothing#it's actual translators being fired for a subpar replacement#and anyone who keeps their job suddenly being responsible for cleaning up llm output rather than what they trained in#(which can take just as much time or longer than doing the translation by hand from scratch)#(if you want it done right anyway)#hell to this day i hear people complain about written translations of indigenous words and how they 'aren't english enough'#even though they're using the ipa and use a system white english people came up with in the first place#and you can easily look up the proper pronunciation and hear it spoken#but there's such a double-standard where it's expected that other languages cater to english/english speakers#but that grace and accommodation doesn't go the other way#and it's the failing of non-english speakers when an english translation is broken#you see it whenever monolingual english speakers travel to other countries and utterly refuse to learn the language#but if someone doesn't speak in unaccented (to them) english fluently in their home country the person 'isn't trying hard enough'#this is just the new version of that where non-english speakers are supposed to do more work and put up with subpar translations#even as a native english speaker/writer i get a (much) lesser version of this because i write with canadian spelling#and some people get pissed if their internet experience is disrupted by 'ou' instead of 'o' or '-re' instead of '-er'#because dialects and regional phrasing/spelling is a thing#human translators can (or should) be able to account for it but llms are not smart enough to do so#and that's not even getting into slang and how llms don't account for it#or how llms can put slurs into translations because it doesn't do nuance or context and doesn't know the language#if you ever complained about buying something from another country that came with machine-translated instructions#you should be pissed at companies cutting english-to-[language] staff in favour of glorified google translate#because the companies are effectively saying they're fine with non-native speakers getting a wonky/broken version
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do you ever think about parker
#i am#not redemption parker idk who that is#but leverage parker? the best thief who is so much more than that#she's smart. so smart nate made her his successor and said you're like me so you can do it but enough not like me that you'll do it your way#and it'll probably be better#he trusted her with that!#and she was so capable of that!#and even that wasn't all there was to her!#she was a thief who learned to trust and care about others despite growing up not ever having been taught to#she learned to trust and to love (in a familial way and a romantic one! slowly but surely!)#she learned to do the right thing. to want to do the right thing. and that food wasn't just food! AHH#and she could also beat the shit out of someone with crutches!!!#I FUCKING LOVE PARKER LEVERAGE OKAY?!#leverage#parker#redemption writers put some respect on her name challenge im fucking begging you
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Thinking so hard about sertegra dancing fic that has not yet been created
#hellsing#hellsing ultimate#seras victoria#integra hellsing#sertegra#a#okay so hear me out you got fancy balls n shit integra was definitely taught how to do that stuff#so like idk how it gets brought up but seras like damn you gotta teach me 🫢🫢🫢🫢🫢 so like ong they’re close it’s so intimate ahhhh#and maybe it’s a little bit of a flop and seras feels bad for distracting integra from work but like#integra’s like I don’t care if it’s good when it’s with you because I’m dancing with you oooohhhhhh#you get the vibe that’s my brain I am not inherently a writer#😾mutual pining for REALsies#the mortifying ordeal of being known (attempting to accurately portray personality)#AHHHH anyway uh on a mission to find my personal favorite album for each year which is requiring me to listen to a bunch of random things#so I can be as Right as possible like some are easy years nothing will top them but like 1956? shit I’ve no clue what exists then#so then I have to learn but like God Damn so much Music exists it’s crazy I will never listen to everything that exists in my life time Damn#on a lil Chet baker run what a funky lil guy
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You know, I'm glad that some of us take the step to embrace things that we like even if they're "cringe" or "objectively bad"
But perhaps we could take the next step forward and embrace the idea of reading into books/shows/movies/etc even if they don't seem deep. Perhaps we could understand that the two kinds of media aren't either "shallow and meaningless so you're weird and brainrotted to read into it" or "incredibly and profoundly deep in every way so if you don't analyze every single angle of the thing then you're brainrotted". Some media is deeper than others, but all I propose is that no matter how deep it seems it's acceptable to dig into the thing and take the media seriously instead of just assuming that because of ____ thing (such as target audience or how cringe it is) the media not deep and will never be deep and everything good about it happened on accident.
#fandom wank#i just be ramblin#I'm not putting this in any tags#I'm just frustrated that Sonic Prime is going to be remembered by the bulk of its fanbase/people who watched it as a shallow stupid badly#written kid's show where the only thing good about it that we can even consider was created on purpose and is deep is Sonadow#I'm frustrated that when people learned that sometimes the death note creators did things because it was cool and not because they were#planning for it to be some great symbolism that so many people jumped from 'death note is a masterpiece and every bit of it is meticulously#thought out the curtains are never blue' to 'pack it up guys! the curtains are just blue! Everything good about death note like that#profound relationship I like and the neat symbolism completely happened by accident and Ohba sucks as a writer otherwise'#I'm frustrated when I see people talk about 'a kid's show' as if it's not gonna be deep at all or written well *because#it's a kid's show and then turn around and complain that said show sucks and isn't deep at all (even if that's how they're choosing to look#at it and they could see the care put into the story if they didn't go into it assuming that it will be lesser and shallow and dumb based on#what it is)#I guess it's also just getting me on this random Wednesday the idea that the bulk of one's viewers determine the legacy of a piece of media‚#no matter how close or far away they are from painting the media as it actually is or tries to bw#It's also just bleak (especially from a manga/anime standpoint) that if your work is considered profound and intellectual‚ then any reveal#of something not being deep is grounds for people to completely swap how they think of your work and how they see you as a writer#And any work that's considered 'not actually that deep' from the getgo ends up with people only engaging with it seriously saying stuff like#'I know nothing about it is purposeful or deep but I like it'#and just ends up with prevailing opinion putting down anything percieved as 'good' or 'profound' about the work as a complete fluke
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