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izamationbroker · 1 year

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Hey there ~

If you're still doing the diagnose-ur-fave thing, do you agree with wawawawawawawawawawawawawa-senpais take of Izaya having aspd? (okay i know you probably do i just really like talking about Izaya)

And also, would you diagnose Shinra with anything?

Sorry to only just now be getting to this, I had a lot on my plate the past few days lol! I didn't want to just bum-rush this and send it out because I've been really wanting an excuse to go ham about this topic in particular!

You're absolutely correct in assuming I agree with Wa-kun's ASPD Izaya take, and I actually think Shinra ALSO fits the bill for ASPD pretty well, too, just in a different way! I wanted to go pretty thoroughly through the actual criteria of the DSM-5 available on OpenLibrary to illustrate this point, but I have a few disclaimers to get out of the way first:

Most people with ASPD (Aspids, as my fiance and brother like to call them, both of which are Aspids themselves) rather dislike the DSM's criteria for diagnosis on the basis that it is rooted purely in external behaviors and never the internal experience of the person WITH it. It gives the image that Aspids don't actually suffer from their ASPD, but ASPD is, in fact, a personality disorder. They suffer just as much, and so I ask you to please be mindful of that despite how the criteria is worded. Even in the professional psychology field, ASPD is heavily stigmatized as "evil bad criminal disorder", when that is actually not what it is at all. I want to use the criteria just to drive home how much Izaya (and Shinra) lines up with it, but I'll try to be nuanced in the way I go about it. I don't want people going OH BUT THEY CAN'T HAVE ASPD BECAUSE THEY CARE ABOUT CELTY/HIS SISTERS/ETC. or whatever, because Aspids can care about people! It's just different from how non-Aspids do it! My fiance and brother both care about me very much, thanks for asking lol

I am not a psych professional, which personally I don't think matters much because of how stigmatized ASPD is even in the professional field. However, I also do not have ASPD myself, so most of what I go over are things I've taken from fiance and brother's experiences

Now with that out of the way, Izaya and Shinra display clear symptoms warranting the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). In this essay I will…

… go through the DSM-5 entry of ASPD section by section, beginning with the official Diagnostic Criteria. Criteria and indicators that I feel fit Izaya and Shinra will be in bold, followed by my reasoning. Criteria and indicators which do not fit them will not be bolded. I just want to include them for the sake of clarity and transparency, so it doesn't look like I'm claiming they match EVERY SINGLE CRITERIA, when they don't necessarily.

Diagnostic Criteria

A. A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest

Now right out of the gate we have a very clear example of why I put that disclaimer there. This one part of a part of a criterion is put on a pedestal and lauded as one of the most defining aspects of ASPD and that all Aspids must have this criterion to qualify. That is actually not the case, as this criterion alone has seven indicators, and one only needs three to qualify. A criminal does not an Aspid make, and not all criminals are Aspids. Even so, Izaya and Shinra both fit this indicator as they deal a lot in criminal behaviors as an information broker and underground doctor both with the Awakusu-kai as their primary clientele.

2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure

3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead

This is textbook for Izaya because a majority of his actions are jerking people around for personal gain, whether it be suicidal teenagers, his clients, or various members of the main cast. What of Shinra, though? I would argue yes, mainly based on the sneaking around he does to hide Celty's head and influence her to give up her search to stay with him. I'm sure there are other examples, but this is the one that stands out the most in my mind.

Also, an interesting note I'd like to add: A lot of these acts of "deceitfulness" aren't actually just done for shits and giggles. Like I said, this is the dichotomy between external behaviors and internal experiences, the why behind the actions. A lot of Izaya and Shinra's deceitful behaviors are often attempts to connect with other people. For Izaya, humans as a whole, and for Shinra, Celty in particular. Something I feel the ASPD criteria lacks is the internal experience of being pervasively disconnected from human connection, which I feel is the core of ASPD as a disorder. What does it feel like, to be stuck in a situation where you seem to be incapable of connecting with others on a fundamental level no matter what you do? Despite what the stigma says, people with ASPD are still humans, and humans are social creatures. It's lonely. Terribly and painfully lonely, and honestly? I can't blame anyone for wanting to find connection with others by any means necessary. It's like being deprived of good food, that whenever you try to eat it melts into a tasteless slop that barely keeps you alive but watching everyone else getting to enjoy that food as it is. That's no way to live, and it's not the fault of the victim that they are deprived. Why does it turn to slop? It just does, no matter what they try to work around it. Maybe sometimes something works a little and they can have something keep its shape, but the taste is still wrong. The full nutrition is still deprived. There's something outside their control that keeps them from having it all, no matter how hard they work, and that's tragic and no fault of their own. I feel like I'd certainly resort to deceitfulness as well just to get some modicum of the connection that others seem to enjoy freely.

I wouldn't say that these two really have much impulsivity, really, however I do find it notable that when Izaya starts getting backed into a corner he starts making SPECTACULAR impulsive mistakes. It isn't very pervasive unless he is already losing control of the situation, though, so I'm not counting it here.

4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults

5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others

This is Izaya only, but I feel like his repeated altercations with Shizuo count, particularly because literally every time they cross paths it devolves into a fight. Depending on your source material, Izaya even goes out of his way to antagonize Shizuo and seek him out for fights (primarily the anime/manga). I haven't read all of the light novels, but I've seen people say Izaya tries more to keep away from Shizuo in them. If that's the case, then maybe this indicator is debatable. However, I do think it's notable that Izaya goes out of his way to create enemies that start physical altercations for him lol

And here I want to go into outward behavior and internal experience again because the motivations behind Izaya's beef with Shizuo are VERY complicated and rooted in things I already mentioned under Indicator 2. Everyone in the fandom agrees that Izaya hates Shizuo because of how easily he is able to connect with others despite being a monster. I don't need to beat a dead horse, there are plenty of analyses on that already. Izaya hates that Shizuo of all people seems to enjoy the good food just fine without any veneer like Izaya has to use just to get a fraction of the flavor. To add insult to injury, from Izaya's perspective, Shizuo seems to take the connections he has with others for granted, and even spits in the face of it when he claims he can't connect with others because of his strength. My fiance actually made a REALLY good analogy of this while I was writing this, too:

"like. izaya sees that shizuo doesnt connect w people but people connect to him and all izaya can see is this fuckin meme

he thinks like 'you have trouble connecting with people but you do it SO MUCH BETTER than i do and you have actual people that love you. why are YOU complaining?'"

So, what is an Aspid to do? He tries to bring Shizuo down to his level, teasing out that rage and monstrosity within Shizuo to enforce that disconnect in Shizuo, because if Izaya can't have any meaningful connections, then Shizuo shouldn't either.

Another insight from my fiance that was so good I couldn't think of anything to elaborate on it with:

"it also could be out of desperation too- remember he got two brain scans in the novels? he doesnt WANT there to be anything wrong with him

so shizuo HAS to be able to fall into the same pit as him

it CANT be just him who experiences this, it just CANT!!

he HAS to see other people in this pit along with him because if more and more people experience it, the better he can convince himself that this just Happens To Some People and there isnt anything fundamentally wrong with him that causes him to be so isolated in a way nobody else is"

With that, we already have the minimum of three indicators for Izaya to qualify him for Criterion A!

6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations

Izaya is very disconnected from the safety of others in the way he uses them for his own motivations. While it is true that no one actually dies at the hand of his schemes, they have absolutely come to plenty of physical harm. He also seems to see no problem with the dangerous situations he puts himself in, either, as he's gotten his ass handed to him more than a few times without much thought of self-preservation. In Shinra's case, I feel like as an underground doctor, he doesn't have many qualms with things like the Hippocratic Oath lmao, and beyond that I've seen the posts circulating around lately regarding how blasé he was towards Izaya when he called to tell him he was in the hospital. I think that kind of speaks for itself, but time and time again he only seems to have any semblance of care for the wellbeing of Celty.

And she's an immortal dullahan who for all intents and purposes cannot be harmed in a meaningful way, so...

With that, we also have our minimum of three indicators for Shinra to qualify for Criterion A!

Inconclusive data, because to my knowledge, they don't focus, in any iteration of the source material, on actual work ethic or financial obligations like paying rent.

7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

Final count: Izaya 5/7, and Shinra 4/7

Neither Izaya nor Shinra exhibit remorse for their various actions which cause harm to others, even (in Shinra’s case) those they care about. Izaya seems fine with anything that happens to those he fucks around with, and even delights in seeing it as it keeps him entertained, citing his love of all humans at their best and their worst. He definitely doesn’t feel bad about anything he’s done to Shizuo, citing his rationalizations under Indicator 4. The most we get is his comment about feeling bad about how Mairu and Kururi turned out under his care, and honestly? One exception in the face of everything else does not usurp his qualification for this criteria in my opinion. Not to mention there is an entire debate to be had about the difference between regret and remorse, and the motivations of such feelings.

On Shinra’s side of things, he doesn’t show any remorse about anyone he’s hurt as a means to the end of keeping Celty’s head away from her. He justifies each and every decision he makes, usually behind his love for Celty. He’s divorced himself with connection to humanity altogether, in fact, in favor of attempting to have that meaningful connection he craves (because either way he himself is still human) with Celty instead.

So both qualify for Criterion A! Moving on to…

B. The individual is at least age 18 years

Simple enough.

C. There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years

Now we don’t have the time to unpack A WHOLE SECOND DIAGNOSIS (unless y’all want me to later), but I’ll give y’all some highlights from the main criteria here based on Izaya and Shinra’s time in middle school and high school, given that in Japan high school begins at age 14 (my memory of their younger days is a little foggy, though, because Wa-kun and I haven’t gotten there yet in our watch together). You only need three of the list of 15 indicators to qualify:

1. Often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others

I think Shinra’s begging Shizuo for samples from Shizuo since grade school speaks for itself. On Izaya’s end of things, while he may have been more reclusive before meeting Shinra, he has no qualms threatening Shizuo from the moment they met.

2. Often initiates physical fights

This is primarily Izaya with regard to Shizuo, honestly.

3. Has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)

Izaya again.

4/5. Has been physically cruel to people/animals

Shinra vivisected Celty at the age of four, need I say more? Sure, one could argue his father coerced him into it, but he didn’t exactly put up a fight and continues to promote this course of action with Shizuo later on.

11. Often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others)

Izaya exemplifies this spectacularly when he takes the fall for Nakura just to laud this debt over him well into adult life. I can’t think of any specific examples for Shinra, but I have the foggiest feeling that there IS an example SOMEWHERE.

Final count: Izaya 4/15, and Shinra 3/15

It’s the bare minimum, but there is a case to be had for evidence of conduct disorder in both Izaya and Shinra. To be fair, there are some more criteria that could be absolutely plausible for them that we just don’t know because their childhoods weren’t elaborated on in very much detail in the source material. That speculation moves into headcanon territory, so I will leave it out for the sake of transparency. (However, there may be some evidence in the light novels that I’m unaware of because I haven’t finished them. Who knows?)

Also, as you may have noticed, the criteria for conduct disorder are arguably even worse than ASPD with regard to exclusively listing outward behaviors over internal experiences. I could go on and on about child agency and how professionals don’t typically consider the reasons behind a child’s actions in favor of just smothering the unwanted behavior, but I’ll leave that for another time! Let’s move on to the final criterion for ASPD…

D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder

I don’t think I need to explain why Izaya and Shinra aren’t schizophrenic or bipolar.

So that’s it, then? But wait! There’s more to be said under…

Associated Features Supporting Diagnosis

Now, these are not criteria and therefore NOT REQUIRED for diagnosis. However, as the title implies, they are often associated with ASPD, so I want to touch on it anyway. This section in the DSM-5 is not a simple list like the criteria, so instead of using it verbatim I’ll be cutting out relevant quotes.

“Individuals with antisocial personality disorder frequently lack empathy and tend to be callous, cynical, and contemptuous of the feelings, rights, and sufferings of others.”

“They may have an inflated and arrogant self-appraisal… and may be excessively opinionated, self-assured, or cocky. They may display a glib, superficial charm and can be quite voluble and verbally facile (e.g., using technical terms or jargon that might impress someone who is unfamiliar with the topic).”

Izaya is easy to associate with this sort of behavior towards others, and I would argue that Shinra fits the bill towards other humans as well as towards Celty. Shinra seems to be inquisitive at best, most of the time. I do want to note though that “lack of empathy” does not necessarily entail an uncaring attitude. Empathy is sort of mistakenly attributed to caring about another’s feelings. What’s actually going on is that a person is able to understand because they feel how another person is feeling. Shinra has displayed forms of caring in his own way when Celty is distraught, by taking an inquisitive interest and asking questions. That’s not empathizing, that’s sympathizing. It is a cognitive action where one thinks about and how a person is feeling and understanding purely through cognitive consideration rather than emotional connection. If you think about it, Izaya is easily capable of this as well—understanding what people are feeling on a cognitive level—it’s just that more often than not he uses it as a weapon instead of a salve.

This is what I meant in the very beginning about Aspids being able to care about others. Shinra cares about Celty, and Izaya cares about his sisters (I know it’s elaborated on more in the novels and Narita’s testimonials). It’s the way that they express that care that gets refracted through ASPD to come out differently than non-Aspids, and this refraction coupled with the stigma of the diagnosis can lead to a lot of distress for an Aspid. What if they don’t really care and it’s all just a fluke? What if they’re manipulating the people they care about without meaning to? It’s because of this need to mask and cognitively reach others rather than emotionally that inherently taints human connection for Aspids. My fiance explained to me that there are essentially two options: you can try to have “normal” connections but hide the part of yourself that blocks you from a direct emotional connection with them, or let that part have the spotlight and resign yourself to being seen as uncaring by the people you’ve connected with. My brother told me that sometimes it’s easier to just not connect with someone at all—no matter how much you want to—than to try, only to watch that connection fall apart and prove you right that it was poisoned from the start. No matter how you slice it, the first option feels fake and the second condemns you from having a “true” emotional connection.

I kind of feel like this struggle can be seen in Shinra’s obsession with how Celty views the world as a dullahan. After discarding any possibility of connection with other humans, he turns to an otherworldly creature in the hopes that maybe she thinks and feels just like he does. It also is clear to me in Izaya’s outright rejection and jealousy of Shizuo’s connection with others despite his monstrous strength and temper, for all the reasons I already covered under Indicator 4 of the Diagnostic Criteria.

Izaya’s god complex largely speaks for itself here, as well as his very opinionated and jargon-filled soliloquies regarding death and humanity. I’m pretty sure there’s even a scene in the light novels where the narrative directly calls Izaya out for the exact example provided in this quote of using excessive jargon to intimidate and impress. Shinra on the other hand is a little less explicit because a lot of his grandiosity and superfluous charm is played for laughs when it comes to his love for Celty (at least, it is in the anime/manga). That doesn’t mean it’s not there, though! Shinra is very sure of himself that Celty doesn’t need her head, and that she only needs to continue living her life in Ikebukuro with him.

Now here are some things associated with ASPD that often go ignored by many people, including psychology professionals:

“Individuals with antisocial personality disorder may also experience dysphoria, including complaints of tension, inability to tolerate boredom, and depressed mood. They may have associated anxiety disorders, depressive disorders… and other disorders of impulse control.”

“Child abuse or neglect, unstable or erratic parenting, or inconsistent parental discipline may increase the likelihood that conduct disorder will evolve into antisocial personality disorder.”

Inability to tolerate boredom coincides with Izaya’s motto that you have to constantly evolve in order to escape the everyday. A lot of Izaya’s actions can be chalked up to thrill-seeking, entertainment to quell the intolerable boredom of his everyday life. Shinra, meanwhile, chooses to swing in the opposite direction by focusing all of his efforts on one thing: Celty. As for the second highlighted issue…

There’s a common stereotype that Aspids cannot feel fear or anxiety. A speaker in one of my fiance’s psychology classes even claimed as much. This, by definition in the quote highlighted here, is inherently false. Aspids are capable of feeling fear and anxiety, they are capable of having all feelings! They just feel and/or approach those feelings differently than non-Aspids. That said, Izaya is terrified of death. It’s a key point behind nearly all of his actions and beliefs. That fear does not disqualify him from having ASPD.

In conclusion

Izaya’s parents were known to be seriously neglectful, and Shinra’s father is also very unstable in the way he parented Shinra.

It’s here I’d like to make another point: ASPD does not make people into monsters, and does not make them undeserving of care and love and everything good in the world. Aspids are humans, too, and more often than not they come out of very unstable and abusive homes. They are victims, and their disorder is another mark of that. Yet the pervasive stigma behind it erases this fact in favor of demonizing them as inherently evil when these symptoms come out of a place where a child was only trying to protect themselves in the only way they felt they could. Don’t perpetuate the wrong narrative. Just don’t.

Izaya and Shinra both absolutely have ASPD. Izaya fits 5 out of 7 of the main criteria, and Shinra fits 4 out of 7. They are both over 18 and have evidence of conduct disorder before 15 (4/15 criteria for Izaya and 3/15 criteria for Shinra). They also have a slew of associated attributes, including struggling to empathize with others, self-aggrandizing and superfluous behavior, chronic boredom, pathological anxiety, and a history of abuse and neglect in childhood.

While the criteria used for the diagnosis of ASPD focuses primarily on outward behaviors, I feel like the internal experience of Aspids is an inherent disconnect from society. Not necessarily in a criminal way, but rather in an emotional/social way. A pervasive struggle to have meaningful connections with others and a pervasive awareness of that struggle. There is an acute awareness that others are able to enjoy the luxury of human connection that they somehow always fall short with, and as a result, they either continue to pursue that one “true” connection through maladaptive behaviors or break away entirely and attempt to fill that void with something else, be it criminal gratification, a complete rejection of humanity, or a very desperate attempt to bring humanity down with them.

This by no means warrants the stigma that is so common towards Aspids. In fact, I feel as though such stigma only serves to prove an Aspid’s point, a self-fulfilling prophecy of an inherent inability to connect with others. No, I feel like the best thing you could do for an Aspid is prove them wrong, that they are worth connecting with and that they are worth caring about. I can’t fix the disconnect between my fiance or brother’s perception of human connection and mine, but I can at least fill their relationships with me with love and kindness and understanding, to give them the most I can so they can get as close as they can to obtaining it. I feel like they deserve that much, after everything they’ve been through and continue to go through to this day.

#orihara izaya #kishitani shinra #durarara!!#drrr #aspd #client inquiries #the broker speaks #*gently but firmly cups your cheeks* look at me- LOOK AT ME #PEOPLE WITH ASPD ARE PEOPLE #NO LOOK AT ME!#THEY ARE PEOPLE!!!#DO YOU UNDERSTAND???#STOP PERPETUATING STIGMA!#STOP IT!#diagnose ur fave #<-I forgot the series tag lmfao

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