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lordeasriel · 2 years

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TSC Analysis: Talbot vs Brande

Or “Why philosophy is so powerful in a world filled with fear and ignorance?”

I have been meaning to write this piece for a long, long time; both concepts are among the things I have enjoyed the most from TSC and the new dæmon lore. Brande is certainly my favourite aspect of them both, so know that this will be harsh on Talbot’s opinion in general, though I shall try my best to be as impartial as humanly possible.

Spoilers for The Secret Commonwealth and, just to be safe, anything prior to that book.

We start TSC and right at the beginning we get slapped in the face with Brande’s The Hyperchorasmians, followed closely by a very succinct description of Simon Talbot's The Constant Deceiver. These two books shape, not only Lyra’s early adulthood and her plights through the plot, but the lore of the world and they are responsible for a considerable intellectual shift in the youngest generation of scholars. They are responsible for the devastating presence of dreary philosophy as Lyra struggles with her melancholy, Delamare reshapes the Magisterium and Olivier Bonneville delves deeper into the mystery of the new method of reading the Alethiometer.

These three represent the core of the greater plot, and should (theoretically) be followed and concluded. But we are here today to question the haunting presence of these philosophies in a world that is facing enormous and intrinsic change.

What made me decide to finally write this was a moment in TSC when Pan is talking to Sebastian Makepeace, and they are discussing Brande.

“If he’s a philosopher, why did he write a novel? Does he think the novel is a good form for philosophy?”

“He’s written various other books, but this is the only one he’s famous for. We haven’t—Lyra hasn’t read any of the others.” (TSC, ch. 10)

Makepeace has a good point. Why choose the novel as the medium for his philosophy? Is it really the best way to pass on your thoughts? Pan’s answer is equally interesting: The Hyperchorasmians are the most popular book of Brande's, but there were others he didn't know about. We see, when Pan is with Brande, that he is dictating his new work and his speech sounds very technical instead of literary prose. So why did he choose to use a novel?

Who is Brande and what do we know about him? He is a philosopher of some renown, his work is popular among the youth, his main ideia is that nothing is more than what it is. The Hyperchorasmians are not fully described but we see the main ideia of the book, which is a young man setting off to kill God, an action he does out of reason.

It told the story of a young man who set out to kill God, and succeeded. But the unusual thing about it, the quality that had set it apart from anything else Lyra had ever read, was that in the world Brande described, human beings had no dæmons. They were totally alone.

(...) At the end of the novel, as the hero looked out from the mountains at a sunrise, which in the hands of another writer might have represented the dawn of a new age of enlightenment, free of superstition and darkness, the narrator turned away from commonplace symbolism of that kind with scorn. The final sentence read, “It was nothing more than what it was.” (TSC, ch 6)

Artistic characters are written as useless and reason is exalted, the ending being the main character successful in his task, defeating God and watching the sunset, knowing that no hidden meaning existed anymore, that nothing was more than what it was. More importantly - and in truth, perhaps the most important thing - is that the story has no daemons. It's not a world with missing daemons, but a world where having no daemon is the innate Truth.

You've read TSC, you know where this is going.

How ironic that a man whose daemon is not his own, a man who probably was abandoned by his daemon, should write a story about a world where people have no daemons!

While we don't understand how he lost his daemon, it's easy to think that the abandonment was a blow to him. He struggles with the Fake Cosima, he is haunted and in suffering, Pan's compassion signals that quite clearly. And I think this is where the reason behind The Hyperchorasmians being a novel lies; it's an idealised vision, an idea of a universe where Brande can belong to. The people in his world “were totally alone”, just like Brande, but unlike him, they were in their natural state and content.

Talbot's work, on the other hand, is more tangible in the real world and has greater influence because it's not seen only as enjoyment literature, but an active form of study.While Brande creates a world devoid of daemons - a concept that it’s virtually inconceivable realistically for people in Lyra’s world - Talbot takes advantage of the existence of daemons and twists and creates a different understanding around them.

This is where Brande and Talbot diverge.

You see, Brande's popular novel is certainly a powerful way to create a movement, and it has affected a great deal of people because of its choice to be written in novel form. Novels are more commonly read than academic theses, anyway. That aspect allows Brande to reach a greater number of people, but it forces his work to be scrutinised by the academic community, who prefers a much more solid (and somewhat elitist) approach. His work is also very arid, even if it's quite powerful (he is a man of strong convictions), which makes it a hard read, given it's a 900-page manifesto on why reason and logic supersede anything else. Which is bullshit, but the man is in denial.

Talbot's work is meticulous, charismatic; unlike Brande, who shuns his creative or intuitive side as a whole, Talbot is a sort of charlatan. He half-lives his Truth, bound by convention, by ambition, by a desire to belong just as much. His book is rooted in scientific jargon, but in a way that is approachable, even reasonable. He is often described as a clever and charismatic man; ultimately, he is a hypocrite, but that doesn't change the fact The Constant Deceiver has a great and powerful impact on society at that crucial moment.

His book is a scientific article on the nature of daemons, but not just that. Talbot's main belief is that nothing means anything and that society is entirely made out of pre-conceptions, including the most ingrained things, such as daemons. Therefore, since everything is imagined or just a delusion, nothing has any meaning at all and so, actions have no consequences.

From what we see or hear of Talbot, however, it's clear he is not as feverish about his beliefs. Nowhere near as much as Brande seems to be. Not only does he seem to function appropriately with his daemon, but he is very much aware that actions do have consequences; he sees that very clearly when he talks to Marcel about Malcolm's presence in Geneva and he fails to deliver accurate information because he is biased towards Mal’s simple manners.

Capes and Godwin’s daemon also say that, if Talbot meant his philosophy, he shouldn’t have anything to do with the Magisterium because they wouldn’t have common ground. Which is quite shown when we learn that, not only he is involved with the Magisterium, he does specific and quite illegal schemes for Marcel. which i would also do frankly but u know, not the point at all

“Do we know of any connection between him and Geneva?” asked Malcolm.

“No,” said the whisper of Godwin’s dæmon. “There could hardly be any common ground, if he means what he says.”

“I think the point is that he says nothing means anything very much,” said Capes. “It might be quite easy for him to play at supporting the Magisterium. I’m not sure they’d trust him, though.” (TSC, ch 13)

The book - through Narrative, through Pan, through Lyra sometimes - tries to tell us that Brande and Talbot are two sides of the same coin. And while I think they do share some common ground, I wholeheartedly disagree that they represent the same thing.

Here's the thing: both men use reason to unravel their theories.

Talbot is meticulous, charming, explaining every detail that needs explaining, answering all the questions that need answering in order to prove his point. He has acquired a following because his scientific thesis vibes make him quite popular and together with his bonhomie nature, he has a considerable reach. He is said to be a sterling lecturer, he has the character traits to succeed publicly and socially. Mild, witty, a “flashy writer”.

Brande, on the other hand, is less concerned about his reach and following. His novel is, despite its fictional nature, a depiction of a place that features things from his reality. When we take the themes of TSC into consideration, we can see that he is a man trying to assimilate Truth, not develop it. By writing The Hyperchorasmians, Brande speaks of a world where people like him can fit in, without shame, without being treated like second-rate citizens in a society bound by superstition.

So much of daemon lore is superstition, created and developed by society as it evolved. In LBS, Malcolm thinks that the touching taboo was perhaps learned not innate. He is, perhaps, correct; in a world shaped by the Magisterium, how much of daemon conduct wouldn't be dictated by religious bias?

So, how do the three main plots connect with these philosophers? How do they affect the world around them?

Well, Lyra is the most obvious one. She represents our understanding of Talbot and Brande, their ideas shaping her relationship with Pan and the world. She has become narrow-minded, following reason too closely, incapable of projecting another view on subjects because she shuts down the things around her that bring memories of a life she should let go of.

On the other hand, because Lyra is so blindsided most of the time, she can't really see The Hyperchorasmians or The Constant Deceiver for the potential they bring to her world. The more I read TSC, the more I realise how much Pan and Lyra would benefit from independence from each other. Much of their misery comes from the preconception that they should love each other, that they should share each other’s views, that they should be happy together. These Truths about daemons create a schism in her world, it's why so many people exist that have lost their daemons.

As opposed to Lyra, who clings to reason in order to survive her melancholy, Olivier escapes these novels’ ideas. Instead of bowing to their shallow principles of reason and logic and dryness, he finds his way around the new method by experimentation, renewing his perception in order to master the new method. I think this is why Olivier is such a strong contrast against Lyra; you never even see him think about the philosophers, he is simply not interested. He cares only about improving his reading method, and about his Alethiometer.

And then we have Marcel, by far the most engaged with the philosophies, which is rather ironic, given who he is. He warrants a separate analysis because a lot of his character ties both scholars into his actions in TSC, but the main idea is that Marcel is a combination of Lyra and Olivier’s resolve. He is willing to experiment and try new perspectives to achieve his goals; he proposes heresy to his mother regarding the roses, he believes Truth is malleable - not only that, but he believes it is possible to shatter a previous concept of Truth and teach a new one.

Marcel, however, always acts through reason, but because he is not - so far - blinded by his ambition, by a lack of perception (which is how they talk about imagination), he is able to navigate the world more successfully and share the strongest points of both current philosophies.

He doesn’t shun the roses and the oil as mere superstition; he tries to reckon with it and that’s why he can do things so easily.

Do I have a point with all this? Maybe not, but I wanted to organised my thoughts and this is, well, close enough lol

#the book of dust #the secret commonwealth #hdm meta: worldbuilding #hdm meta: daemons #hdm meta: gottfried brande #hdm meta: simon talbot #meta by effie

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cassatine · 1 year

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For the fic writers asks: 3, 17 and 23 :)

3. What are some tropes or details that you think are very characteristic of your fics?

idk that I really have characteristic tropes but I have characteristic themes I guess? details-wise... huh. I like travelogues, a good twist, worldbuilding, the weird, character studies, meta, horror and comedy. on the less noticeable end: rule of three sentences. honestly atm I'd just say what's really characteristic of my writing is my aversion to plot... it's all vibes (derogatory).

17. What highly specific AU do you want to read or write even though you might be the only person to appreciate it?

well beyond the incestuous legacies obsession, I've wanted to do a hdm fic about Lyra growing up basically adopted by Ma Costa that would be mostly worldbuilding for years but 1) I don't have a story to go with it and 2) it'd take sooo much research. I'm never gonna do it.

23. What’s a trope, AU, or concept you’ve never written, but would like to?

don't laugh but i kinda want to do an actual coffee shop au at some point, like not a straight one, one with murders or something... mostly bc it'd be a challenge to take what to me is the height of boring and twist it into something I could have actual fun writing.

#ask meme things #cass writes things #ask #thehermitsacedia #thank you dear <3 number three gave me the agonies... mortifying ordeal etc etc

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moustache-bonnet · 4 years

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My dear HDM whores, hi. Upon an approaching COVID-19 lockdown in our country, my brain has entered a manic state during which this daydream had come to me and I couldn’t stop myself from writing it down. I hadn’t eaten for two days, I’m surviving on coffee and sugar, but I had to spit it out. It’s a very, uh, purposeful (or -less) three part story about Dr Anthony John Roderick Hassall, the botanist (honestly Philman, what a mouthful) told through the eyes of an OC (what else). It is a companion story of a kind to The Secret Commonwealth, as canon-compliant as possible and with a lot of headcanon about who Hassall could be (have been) as a character. Enjoy!

#his dark materials #the book of dust #the secret commonwealth #his dark materials fanfiction #hdm fanfiction #roderick hassall #hdm meta #hdm worldbuilding #masterlist #my writing #my ocs

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lordeasriel · 4 years

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(You can click for better quality, these files are huuuuuuuuuuge).

Hello friends! I bring upon you my most recent work that nobody has asked for lol Which is a timeline for Lyra’s world. This is based on canon information, and there are a few speculations as well, but I tried to stay very true and close to the source material. This covers all the published novels, including the Collectors, so there might be spoilers.

You can check the Google docs, with all the information in the images, plus all my notes and observations, as well as the references for the dates.

#his dark materials #hdm meta: worldbuilding #hdm timeline #hdm #i've been working on this for months and this will be update for sure #but idk i felt like finishing it #i use this for my fics and ur welcome to use it if u want too

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lordeasriel · 3 years

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The Sun never sets on the Magisterium

The reach of the Holy Church in Lyra’s world is the first and most prominent worldbuilding aspect we learn from Northern Lights. It is the most important introduction one has to this world, so vastly different than ours yet so similar still, and it is the one trait that remains constant throughout both trilogies and novellas included.

This is an analysis of the Church in Lyra’s world, so spoilers for all the books and novellas, most likely. I’ll try and make a single post about this but I’m gonna reserve the right of maybe doing two separate parts because it’s a big subject. Under the cut because you know the drill, it’s long lol

The Magisterium was founded after John Calvin’s death, who had been Pope, and had the seat of the Church moved to Geneva. Although it is never clear, the Magisterium’s religious aspects come mostly from the Roman Catholic Church, and Pullman himself said in an interview, that some of its dogma is based on the original puritans. In this world, Calvin didn’t seem to have moved forward with his reform, not needing to break ties with the Catholic Church since he had become the Catholic Church.

Despite becoming a vast collective of “courts, colleges, and councils,” the Magisterium remains rather similar to most Christian branches from our world, at least in the medieval times. They had ties with kingdoms, they had influence over colonization, as well as economic and political influence, not to mention military too.

In Lyra’s world, the Magisterium seems intimately tied to Geneva’s politics, at the very least; it gives the impression that the city is somehow independent from the rest of Switzerland, not unlike the Vatican is independent from Italy. It is however, mentioned that the Swiss War was an armed conflict between England and the Magisterium, which means that they must have a full fledged control over the entire country and not just Geneva, although like most things in these books, this is not a sure claim.

With the Swiss War happening some time around 1933 and 1935, it gives this wild and quite odd picture, of a Church actively trying to invade a country. Although not that foreign a concept, since the Catholic Church was highly involved with the colonization process of our world, they never quite invaded the countries themselves (at least during the 1500s colonizations, as the Crusades were sort of Catholics invading countries lmao), instead joining later as the Monarchs of Europe established outposts and colonies and had already subdued natives in the area.

We do not have an exact date for the Magisterium’s creation, the implication being that it was set somewhere 600 years prior to Marcel Delamare’s acceptance of Leader of the High Council in TSC, it is fair to assume that colonization was already happening in Lyra’s world’s 15th century-ish and that the Magisterium was involved with that much in the same way it was in our world: by converting people, be it by force or by persuasion.

However, in Lyra’s world, the Magisterium stopped being a fully religious entity at some point, and became a full fledge state-like organization, spread all across the globe in different shapes and names, all answering to the bigger and more powerful groups, usually stationed in Geneva: the College of Bishops during its initial centuries, then eventually the Consistorial Court of Discipline, who by NL had become an immensely powerful group, in a power conflict with the less threatening Society of the Work of the Holy Spirit. The CCD being the harshest and most powerful group in the Magisterium, at least during the events of HDM, seemed to have had a lot of power in Geneva and in nearby areas, such as France (as we learn in LBS, the alethiometrists of Paris were sympathetic to the Church, not a surprise given France’s very Catholic Background) and Germany.

With information known from LBS and HDM, the Magisterium seems to hold under its power both the Swiss Army (implied, at least, given the Swiss War being a conflict created by the Magisterium itself) and the Imperial Guard of Muscovy, which seemed to have been under the control of the CCD in particular. It is not explained exactly why the Muscovite Army serves the Church and personally, my knowledge of anything Eastern Europe is very slim, so I’m not gonna attempt to assume much, but given that in TSK it is said they were “sworn to uphold the power of the Magisterium”, it’s possible — and very likely — that the Muscovite government had some sort of deep rooted connection with the Church. Again, not a surprise for Europe, as most countries had monarchies connected to the Church very intimately.

I’m not diving deep into every single one of the Magisterium groups, especially because we know very little about most of them. During the Magisterium congress in TSC, it is mentioned that 53 delegates attended, each representing a group at least (we know both Pierre Binaud AND the President of the CCD attended and they both are part of the same group), so that alone should prove why I couldn’t possibly talk about every single one of them lmao Some of those aren’t even mentioned by name. So, before I tackle on the most important groups and what they represent, I wanted to discuss how the Magisterium’s influence in the world seems to work in a geographical way.

We know for a fact that Geneva — and Switzerland, at least implied so — is absolutely under the control of the Church. Whether they share power with a political group or they are the political branch themselves, I could not say, but at any rate, we know the Magisterium waged war on England under the Swiss banner at one point in time and it’s fairly unlikely that it changed much in less than a century; that alone proves that State and Church don’t seem separate here.

So, how I perceive the Church in Lyra’s world — not just based on preference, but also on what we see of the world, however little it is — is that the further the country and cities are from Geneva, the looser the Magisterium’s grasp is and the more different its approach to power becomes. I use the word ‘looser’ here very lightly, as I don’t think the Americas weren’t oppressed, but I think the Magisterium had a much different type of hold and influence there, and I do think the huge oceans separating Europe from Oceania and the Americas helped change the pull of the Church.

That is different from how it happened in our world, but there is also the difference in how the Magisterium operates; each of its groups work under different philosophies and dogmas and politics. They embody the same religion - Christianism - but they do not act the same way, a good example being how the faithful in Constantinople act towards the Patriarch, while England has very little respect for the CCD, instead just fearing it. In our world, the Church operated sort as an unified front, but in Lyra’s world these many groups are always and constantly fighting each other for power and influence, creating alliances and making enemies between themselves. In England alone, we see that many groups have “outposts” there, the CCD and the Oblation Board, as well as all the Priories and chapels and all that.

There is also the fact that Lyra’s world still seems to have a very independent Africa, as we see the presence of King Ogunwe, meaning that some of the areas in Africa still had independent Kingdoms. This doesn’t mean that the African colonies that did exist weren’t converted or oppressed, but it does mean that these independent Kingdoms resisted the Church’s influence and depending on what group was harassing them, they could succeed in breaking the Church’s ever growing presence. This seems a similar situation for the Americas, given how odd the borders are in Lyra’s world — South America having way less countries than it does in our worlds and the US never being formed, instead separated into at least two regions, three depending if New France means Canada or yet another part of a possible US.

This is a very ugly map I coloured to show my point lmao The Red Areas cover most of Western Europe and some of Eastern Europe, as well as a part of Russia. All these areas are connected by roads or trains, meaning that the Magisterium’s pull could have started long before airplanes were even created; these means the influence and presence would have existed for a long period of time in most of Europe, meaning More Magisterium Strength. It also covers areas I assumed would be heavily populated areas in the colonies, most of the coastal areas in Brasil, most of the United States because they have two different countries in them — Texas and New Denmark — and most of Coastal Australia, although by HDM it’s fair to assume all these regions are no longer colonies, but independent states.

I didn’t go into full detail, there are countries I didn colour with red but that should be red. The Green Areas are contested Areas, places where the Magisterium would have a presence but that would create conflicts for different reasons, being other religions, an uncooperative governement or simply because the group in charge of the area is not competent or too violent to properly establish a presence. This would be the areas in the continents, especially in Africa, where in our world they were heavily colonised but in Lyra’s world they are still independent kingdoms, with military forces and political freedom. Some parts of Russia are green because in Lyra’s world there is the implication Russia is divided into at least three different territories — Muscovy, Tartary and Siberia — and the tartars are considered heretics by the Church; is the territory I painted in green correspondent to actual Tartar regions? I have no idea, but I’m hoping you can forgive my geographic inaccuracy in favour of all this mega meta thing I just spurred. LMAO

And finally the Purple Areas are mostly in places where the weather would be too harsh or where population would be too small to attract the eye of the Magisterium. Ultimately, the Church in Lyra’s world does not only seek to convert everyone and rid the world of heretics, but they also want political influence, economical and military as well, and a small village in Greenland offers absolutely none of that. Some of these areas would also be found in Asia, I believe, especially the very distant and small villages where Islam would have been able to survive. I’ve written a bit about other religions in Lyra’s world if you want to read before going on.

With all that in mind — and out of the way! — let’s take a closer look at the Magisterium most notable groups. Starting of course, with the CCD, it’s important to keep in mind that the CCD was the first group created in the Magisterium. It wasn’t always, however, the most powerful one; in Northern Lights, it’s said they only gained notoriety in “recent years”, and we see in La Belle Sauvage that they were already active, including in England, so my assumption is that not only Pullman did a slight retcon here, but also that recent years can mean somewhere in the range of 70 to 100 years. This doesn’t change the fact the CCD became powerful and feared in the Magisterium, nor that their power in England grew considerably between LBS and TAS and then TSC. They are mostly an enforcer type of group (this is how I refer to them, not canon: enforcer or militia for groups that can arrest, or do any type of Police/militia/army related type of work; dogmatic is how I refer to the groups that usually deal with conversion, reeducation, philosophical works - this isn’t relevant, I’m just. Trying to Make Sense lmao) and as an enforcer, the CCD is violent and ruthless and often lawless in its work outside Geneva.

Despite the fact they are known as a Church Authority, they cannot murder freely and without consequence. In England they act in the shadows during LBS, disguising Robert Luckhurt’s murder as a drowning, and not much is known about their work during HDM, but in TSC they start to openly arrest people for heresy, no doubt a change from the government after Marcel’s rise to power. The CCD seems to act all across Europe and even Central Asia, as we see some of its forces in Constantinople, although it isn’t clear if they were there simply because the Patriarch died or if they are also stationed in the city; the Sublime Porte had its own guards as well, given its status as a government base.

Not much is known of the Society of the Work of the Holy Spirit, except that they seemed less harsh than the CCD and during their quest to find Lyra, they were far more interested in not killing her. Lord Asriel mentions in TAS about his surprise in learning that Lord Roke managed to infiltrate the group, as they were considered impregnable; given Lady Salmakia’s method, and the whole attitude of the group towards the prophecy — it was assumed they weren’t going to do anything about it — I’d safely assume they were more inclined towards being dogmatic.

Perhaps even older than the CCD, the College of Bishops was perhaps inherited from the Catholic Church before the Magisterium was born. It was known to be the most remarkable and powerful of the groups for centuries after the creation of the Magisterium. Not much is said about them, but given their counterpart in our world, I’d assume they were more inclined towards dogma than enforcer. They are, in our world, a collection of bishops who work closely with the Pope; in Lyra’s world, by the time the Magisterium existed, the Pope no longer existed, so the assumption is that the College replaced the Pope figure altogether, being led by all the bishops in the collection, probably working like a council.

Everything we know about La Maison Juste is confusing and unclear, as most things worldbuilding-wise are in these books. Their official name is League for the Instauration of the Holy Purpose, which coincides with Olivier Bonneville’s description of their work, about “accomodating the life of the world to the life of the spirit”. In other words, it means making sure that daily life can be fitted into the dogma of the Church; it’s vital for the Magisterium to adapt as progress comes. Unlike the CCD, that suppress anything that borders heresy, La Maison Juste seems more inclined towards adapting the dogma so the world can still be within the Magisterium’s expectations.

However, there is mention of La Maison Juste being a place meant to study and examine heresy; there is also a mention in TSC, by Olivier, about how the group changed under Marcel’s leadership, “being a force for good” in the ranks of the Magisterium. What that means exactly, I can’t say; it could be Marcel changed the heresy examination to something more productive and less harsh, or it could just mean he became more strict towards heresy, but that would conflict with Olivier’s description about the accomodation thing. At any rate, I do classify them as dogmatic, and we see Marcel using the CCD to go after Olivier when he flees Geneva; it’s curious because there seems to be implied the CCD outranks his group, but he still uses their forces to do anything remotely violent. There is however, a passage where Lyra lies to a guard from the Office of Right Duty about being part of La Maison Juste, and the guard gets spooked. This is curious because La Maison Juste barely seems remarkable up until the congress happens, but the mention scares the man off.

Two groups — that we know of — were responsibility of Mrs. Coulter. The League of St. Alexander seemed to have been created around the same time LBS happens (roughly 1986 if the timeline makes any sense, which probably doesn’t). Hannah Relf learns at some point that Marisa was behind it, but it’s never clear what was her role in it exactly. It doesn’t look like the League was a private initiative, but actually tied to the Church and it was as good a Scam as any. Marisa being behind it didn’t necessarily mean she was the active leader of the group, as they mention a man under the codename Bishop seemed to be in charge, but then again, I cannot say with certainty. They were definitely a dogmatic group, with brainwashing added to the mix, but they seemed to have mutated over time and it isn’t clear whether they only existed in England or not.

The General Oblation Board was Mrs. Coulter’s actual, proper group. It was a private initiative, under the CCD’s rule, but the nature of their work seemed to threaten the CCD’s leadership in the Magisterium. MacPhail made an extra effort to try and dismantle them, especially because he believed that Dust should be destroyed and not examined. I don’t think the fate of the group was ever disclosed, despite their losses, but by TAS MacPhail mentions them as if they are still functioning. Whether they survived up to TSC is not clear, but it’s also hard to imagine what could they have become without Marisa. It’s also interesting to think what would have happened to the Magisterium, had Marisa succeeded in taking the place of the CCD; a private initiative group as the most powerful group in the Magisterium would have caused drastic changes, and probably opened the doors to the big corporations much sooner than Marcel’s work in TSC. The GOB could be classified as dogmatic, given their interest in Dust, but they were far more into scientific research than La Maison Juste seems to be, for example. They also had their own private guards, so no need for the CCD’s enforcers.

I think these groups showcase well how the Magisterium operates. The further we see Lyra go into the East, we realise how the grip of the Church seems lighter and far more military inclined. Is the Magisterium everywhere? Frankly, I don’t think so. I think they have a substantial presence in every country with any amount of political influence or power; any country that might offer opposition. We know they tried to conquer England through an actual war, which is quite odd for a religion, but this is where the Theocracy takes it place in Lyra’s world: they become a single unified front with their country — Switzerland, in this case — and the countries where they have more power, they can also control. The places they can’t take by force, they take with dogma and faith, and slowly overthrow these governments by turning their people against themselves.

They are so vastly fragmented that even places with small groups are affected by their presence, no matter small and odd that can be. It’s both curious and terrifying to see a world so deeply overwhelmed by a single opponent, but then again, it’s not that far off our reality. The Magisterium doesn’t represent just faith and religion, but also the big oligarchies, and how governments bend to the will of big companies, and how these aligned forces can become oppressive over time. The Church’s hold across Europe, Africa and Asia was not fast and unpredictable; it was obvious and slow. It started with small conversions and with time, the Church become a force of sustainability for different regions; they become an important part of the enviroment, of the economy, of the security of the country. They become something to be relied on and thus removing them become difficult over time as well, as the micro societies — the neighborhoods, the small villages — they become reliant on the Church’s helpful groups to survive, meaning that their fear of the enforcers are overwhelmed by the help of the Chapels, and the priories.

It’s the creation of a co-dependent ecosystem that is very difficult to dissolve without harming innocent people.

#hdm meta: worldbuilding #hdm meta: the magisterium #hdm meta: religion #hdm meta: politics #hdm meta #lmao it's a lot of meta this blog is very organised #the magisterium #his dark materials #the book of dust #meta by effie

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lordeasriel · 3 years

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Idk if you really do meta so no worries if not but I’ve been studying loads of Arab history recently and I keep thinking about the magisterium and how it would interact with other world religions. Like the Arab world and Islam must still exist, and be close by. In the secret commonwealth there is a little bit of this but not loads. Just wondering what your thoughts are?

Oh, yes I absolutely do meta! lmao That’s basically all I do in this fandom! Thank you for the ask, I’ve given this theme some thought before, but never wrote it down.

First, I just want to say that my understanding of Islam is not extensive at all - we do not have a big muslim community in Brasil, especially not in my city which is super small - and despite all my research, it’s not enough to go super in-depth in the nuances of it. So, if you or anyone wants to add to this post, please feel free and encouraged to do so. I’m gonna offer you simply a very broad cultural take on the Magisterium and how it reacts to most religions.

I’m fairly certain Islam exists in Lyra’s world, tho. It’s not openly said so, but there are many instances in TSC that suggests so; what we don’t know is to which extent it exists. There is a direct mention to a niqab and there is a mention of a woman in Smyrna also wearing a headscarf (probably a hijab, maybe? there’s not a lot to tell), and as far as my knowledge goes, these are Arabic cultural/religious items. So, we know at least this part of the culture is there.

Something to keep in mind about Lyra’s world is that it’s a full-on globe, much like ours; that seems dumb when I say it lol but my point is, it’s too big for the Magisterium to reign alone as the sole master of religion with Christianity. Even in our world, the Catholic Church struggled in endless crusades against several different religions, including their own infighting over different variations of Christianity, and despite their best efforts, many religions still exist - some of them small, yes, and damaged by their influence.

There are far too many different cultures in the entire world for a single religion to successfully overtake the entire population. Human beings are so ridiculous random that some of us don’t even partake in religion, so it’s hard to see Christianity as almighty. It is, however, in Lyra’s world, a lot more powerful (think the Mighty Age of the Church in the past, when they consorted with entire kingdoms and their kings and controlled most aspects of life) and therefore it creates this idea of ‘they are alone in their power’. They’re definitely not, the Witches alone prove that; they have their own religion and gods. So do the bears. Their fantasy vibes conceal their cultural variation, but they are part of the world regardless, some of the witches even being pro-Magisterium. Again, random people being random.

Aside from these cultural groups, the general human population has the atheists, which are a divergent religious opinion as well and obviously, the Magisterium tries to suppress them hard - as they offer a lot of resistance to the dogma by improving science. By being more politically involved, the Church succeeds in controlling scientific progress, but still encounters resistance everywhere, no matter how feeble it is (yay, Oakley Street!). And the gyptians with their own secret commonwealth associations also suffer censorship and persecution, so the same probably happened with most religions.

Islam is not a small religion, and it’s also very old in terms of how long its been known to exist, so for it to seem so watered down to a simple cultural lifestyle (at least from what we see in TSC, with the dress ‘code’, I’m not sure if that’s the exact term for the niqab use, sorry if it’s not) probably means that the Magisterium succeeded in fighting its influence very strongly (probably the Crusades, I’m not super familiar with that subject either). That’s either before or after it became the Magisterium, since we can assume the Church was vaguely similar to our world’s version of it, up until John Calvin’s papacy and the Magisterium’s foundation. And because they succeeded, they managed to contain the strength of Islam and keep it mostly isolated from the Magisterium’s power region which is the entire Europe, pretty much. (we have little information on Africa, and we know next to nothing about the Americas and Oceania, so I assume the Church had different degrees of influence in these areas).

But as we move through the Levant in TSC, it’s possible to see how fragmented their influence seems to be depending on the country. They have the Patriarch’s group in Constantinople, but that is still very, very close to Europe, in a way (I mean it is Europe but also Asia, geography is not my strongest trait lmao). But as Lyra goes deeper and deeper, the less we see official ‘civilised’ Magisterium groups (like La Maison Juste or any types of priories or anything dogmatic) - we mostly see military forces spread thin (mostly and more likely CCD), which to me just seems like their way of trying to enforce the idea of their might to muslim people in the region. However, they don’t seem to have a strong hold on the region and the further you go to Asia, I believe you’d find a very widespread community of people who follow the Islam and not Christianity.

One thing though, is that I think that these major religions (according to wikipedia lol): Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism; they are all confined somewhat to specific areas instead of being spread like they are in our world. You wouldn’t find nowhere near as many muslins and buddhists in Central Europe, Western Europe as you would in the Middle East, for example. And this is because Lyra’s world is yet to suffer from a globalization process, (easier transport, communication system, culture assimilation) they are outdated, including the fact that the world seems to be set somewhere between end of Victorian period (late 1800s) up to the 50s, and according to estimates, the world population in 1950 was around 2.5 billion people as opposed to our 7 billion in 2020. So, it’s a lot less people, most of them very spread across the globe, these are all things to consider when thinking about how the Magisterium would handle these things.

China (The Celestial Empire of Cathay and Manchuria in Lyra’s world) is said to be a huuuuuuuuge empire, and they are also implied to be very lethargic politically, which means they probably isolated themselves keeping their own religion and culture very tightly away from the Magisterium. There is a passage about how it is believed the Emperor wouldn’t care much, because he was old and/or sick, if and when the Magisterium invaded the Karamakan desert, which is a Chinese territory, with several different nationalities of armies. So there is a lot to consider, but I think this gives room for us to see that the Magisterium is not entirely as almighty as it seems or as it tries to look like it is. Its reach has flaws and it mostly seems to operate in Europe and Europe-close regions, such as Northern Africa and parts of Asia.

So, I do think other religions still exist in Lyra’s world - despite not many being mentioned at all - and smaller religions like Judaism and Sikhism, for example, were probably persecuted a lot more due to their status, but in general I don’t believe any of them were entirely erradicated, despite, of course, being oppressed by the Magisterium.

#asks #hdm meta: worldbuilding #hdm meta: religion #hdm meta: the magisterium #thank u for the ask! this was fun to write!#padgae #long post

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lordeasriel · 3 years

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do you think Lyra’s world has Christmas? Or Easter? I have this vague notion Jesus is mentioned...

I did check the books, and I couldn’t find any mentions to Easter. However, her world has Christmas, there is a direct mention to it in TSC:

“Lyra sat there for a few minutes after Miriam had gone, chatting to George, regretfully turning down his offer of work in the Christmas vacation (...)” (Chapter 2, TSC).

“Dick, they take on extra workers at Christmas, don’t they, the Royal Mail?” (Chapter 4, TSC).

There also mentions to it in chapters 6 and 8, and there is even some commentary on how Lyra spent Christmas with different friends.

The Magisterium is an evolved form of the Roman Catholic Church, to a certain degree, and they do use the Bible - with Genesis, I don’t how that change between different Christian branches - so it’s safe to at least assume most religious rituals - such as Easter - would also be performed. Jesus Christ is also mentioned in LBS, as well as in TAS (although in TAS Mary is the one mentioning him).

And while this is, again, assumption, one cannot have the Catholic Church without having the birth and death of Christ, which is Easter for the latter, so while Lyra’s world had a Church that changed after John Calvin became Pope (and it is deliberate said he moved the seat of power to Geneva, meaning that very likely the Church used to be in Italy like it was in our world - Vatican was founded in 1929, so it was probably in Rome), it’s very likely they were built on the same foundations the Roman Catholic Church was built in our world, which is the apostles (i hope that’s the word) creating the Church (Peter, I think, if my religious knowledge has any depth at all lmao) after the death of Christ.

#asks #hdm meta: worldbuilding #thank u for the ask!!#sorry it took me a while and i hope this helps u!#Anonymous

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lordeasriel · 3 years

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I know you said you were busy so no rush on this. But I am curious what you think a world with a greater appreciation for the independence of dæmons would look like? I have always liked the idea of Lyra starting a foundation to help reconnect people and their separated dæmons (in addition to her aleuthemeter work. But I don’t think that’s what you have in mind, or honestly something Philman would do lol.

Oof, it took me some time to finally sit down and answer this! Thank u for ur patience!

I think that for me, Lyra getting involved with humanitarian work towards daemonless people would be great, in many ways. For starters, it is a great way of showing that she is very different from her parents (more different than Marisa, since her research was all about separating people from their daemons) but also it would help her find some purpose in life, which I think it ties in well with her dilemma. I don't think the idea is that far off, but Philman doesn't operate on a macro scale with Lyra; her journey seems very self-centered and even if relates to other characters, it is very centered around a group of people. So I think the idea is great, but perhaps not very likely.

I think a world where daemons are treated as independent beings would be changed considerably - for Lyra's standards. It would, most likely, be a great cultural shock. It's a similar feeling from seeing pictures from 1918 and then 1921, and realising that a lot changed in a very little time. I don't think they would be considered people, in a sense of citizens, so they wouldn't need a politician or representative in senates across the globe. I also think that, like most things, this change would be slow and gradual across the globe, so certain places would take longer to adapt to that.

Daemons would have freedom of coming and going, and unlike Pan in TSC, they'd be able to use any public transport they wish without fear of being recognised. That would resolve questions over daemons paying or not for transport, since they occupy space as well as any human. Ultimately, I think that the still spiritual nature of daemons would end up making them not pay for a lot of stuff; a daemon with hands that can grab, like a pine marten, could carry money, but a butterfly most certainly could not.

I think there would be an increasing pressure over creating laws about separated people, which I can imagine would create a long and difficult battle between everyone, daemon and human. People would want to fine daemons that leave their humans, and daemons would like a financial aid as well in case their humans left them; as I said, daemons wouldnt use money, so the fines would be impossible. I can see ultraconservatives demanding laws to separate the separated people from the whole in public spaces (which yes, it is very reminiscing of the US and many other countries in the last century, especially the former colonies, who segregated their POC lawfully). I don't think the segregationists would go far, but the conflict would still be there and the bad blood of the initial change.

There would also be a danger to daemons alone, as we learn that people capture or even buy them to sell to people who want a daemon, so their individuality (and the fact that separation isn't deadly and would have been spread across the globe) means they would be in a lot more danger too. That, again, would lead to a desire to create laws to protect daemons, which could end up even in willing separation having to be requested in court.

So I just created a terrible world lmao But I think that ultimately the daemons should be seen and respected as individuals; I can see Philman, if he ever decides this is the path he wants to go, making a world much less bleak than mine lmao But I also think that these conflicts at unavoidable. Whenever society changes - and these changes would be gradual, of course, not all at once - there is always resistance. Conflict is important for growth, so I think in the end, the world would be a better place, where daemons are not a part of something, but a whole that completes another whole, if that makes any sense.

I also want to add that, even if separation was normalised, I still think that daemonless people (that is, the people whose daemons abandoned their humans, not just separated the bond) would still be seen as outcasts, as humans would still fail to see how could a person be abandoned by the only other being on the planet who understands and knows them well. I also think these stray daemons would be much more accepted in this changed world, as daemons aren't seen as human but something different and sacred, regardless if the bond is intact or not .

#asks #hdm meta: worldbuilding #thank u for the ask!#god I'm such a downer lmaoii

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moustache-bonnet · 3 years

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“The last thing she remembered of him was the blue woollen sweater vanishing behind the corner of the street and the scent of lilac and karha, and a long, dark night, the damning loneliness of which she was about to experience once more, not too long after.”

#his dark materials #the book of dust #the secret commonwealth #his dark materials fanfiction #hdm fanfiction #roderick hassall #hdm meta #hdm worldbuilding #masterlist #my writing #my ocs

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moustache-bonnet · 4 years

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“For a beat she became very conscious of Ira's touch, of his weight and the shape of his body against her own. The dӕmon’s every sense was heightened and sensitized also, and his perception of the moment was so deep that she felt the warmth that he felt at the tips of her fingers, and smelled her own skin as he smelled it, the residue of a tanning lotion, perfume, and saliva. There was something carnal about this highly forbidden experience that she couldn’t explain and it filled her with a thrill which even in the years to come she would find impossible to compare. “

#his dark materials #the book of dust #the secret commonwealth #his dark materials fanfiction #hdm fanfiction #roderick hassall #hdm meta #hdm worldbuilding #masterlist #my writing #my ocs

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lordeasriel · 5 years

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hdm’s world setting headcanons

i’ve been setting these up for my current fanfiction, because I needed some solid worldbuilding with just enough canon to make it look plausible. would these even configure as headcanons? or is it meta? is there even a difference? i’m too old for tumblr lol i can never tell.

The Magisterium in the World

Although powerful and influential, the Magisterium has a far tighter grip on Europe and Central Asia than it does on the rest of the world. Its violent nature makes it difficult for them to spread to different countries with different religious beliefs, because they do not go unchallenged, despite their ultimate propaganda. Despite it’s tyrannical and intolerant policy, they have nothing to gain from conquered a dead country, so it’s pointless to wage war when their best tool is subterfuge and shady schemes.

For decades they struggled to take over the Americas and the African continent due to their particularly traditional views on religion, often born in the roots of the indigineous natives of these countries, and considered highly herectical and blasphemous in the eyes of the Holy Church. They had taken over many countries in these regions before, when the Pope still existed, their influence subtle in the everyday life of the citizens, but when the papacy was abolished, and in its place came the collective known as Magisterium, the members of other religions saw an opportunity to rise amidst the chaos. Once the traditional religions of these regions became stronger, the Magisterium had to pick its fights more carefully.

In its intent to conquer these regions, they chose the Americas over Africa due to the size of the African continent, but also because its diversity in tribes, religion and civilization was far too much for the Magisterium’s grasp. And although they did had a presence in New Denmark and Texas, it was of minimal size and not nearly as scary and controlling as their presence was in Europe and Central Asia, but by the time Lord Asriel visited Jordan, things were changing drastically and not for the better, so his entire expedition to the North after that was well-timed, diverting the Magisterium’s gaze from these places so they could focus on their main problem in the North.

The Holy Church’s eurocentrism had its perks to those that, in another world, would end up colonised and converted by them. While they tightened their grasp around the edges of Central Asia up until Brytain, to the farther corners of the North, the rest of the world managed to salvage most of its original culture. The dialects spoken in South America alone were the result of years of an ideological battle against the Magisterium, nearly safe from its destructive intent. The African continent, still a bit more devastated than the Americas, maintained a great deal of its african languages and a hundred dialects, though the closer one gets to the borders with Europe, more one listens to English, French and Russian instead of Swahili, Yoruba and Arabic.

With its intimate relationship with the Muscovite Guard, the Magisterium’s presence makes French and Russian the official languages of almost the entire european continent. Although this is a rule for the collective influence of the group, they also make it mandatory for English to be known by their members, and depending on the group, they can also demand knowledge of yet another language.

Daemons Around the Globe

Speaking of religion, the Magisterium’s views on daemons were short-sighted and delusional, clouded mostly by their prejudice and intolerance, hence the taboo’s extremes conditions That means that in places where its chastising wasn’t as violent, their views were less strong and less followed than most people believed.

Despite this, touching another person’s daemon still is a matter that requires consent and different levels of relationship, depending on where you are and where you come from. In certain countries, such as in Texas, High Brasil or the Kingdom of Auster, due to the hot and humid weather, daemons and human were used to touching each other only when required, especially with daemons with fur, since it was disconcertengly unconfortable to constantly hug your daemon in a 40ºC summer day.

Also, because of the overpopulation, and the loose leash of the Magisterium in these places, it was common for daemons to accidentally bump into a leg or slightly brush themselves when hovering over crowded situations like these (unless, of course, the daemon was porcupine, but the cry would be of pain rather than disgust) and with a quick apology either from the daemon or the human to which they were part of (or both, you never know), all was settled.

Depending on the region, and according to the amount of influence the Church holds over them, some people had the tradition of accesorising their daemons. In certain places it was because of religion, in other it was purely aesthetic. It could be bracelets, rings or collars with pretty gems, permanent or removable tattoos in different colours of ink, in different shapes and places. Daemons with straighter fur or no fur at all were easier to be painted, and amphibious had a prefference for jewelry, since they often have delicate skin. All of these customisations, however its purpose, was never, ever made without the daemon’s consent.

Under the religious aspect of it, they would often paint tribals and symbols on the daemon and the human, if it was for a ritualistic aspect. In places such as High Brasil, Peru and the Kingdom of Auster, countries that retained a certain freedom but still fell prey to the christianism of the Holy Church, would imbbed these herectic behaviour to their christian rituals, such as Easter and Christmas, and even in weddings or baptisms. So every once in a while, when a religious date came closer, and they had service to attend, many people (including the priests, sometimes) would paint different designs on their faces and arms, and paint sacred symbols of old or recent indigenous religions on their daemons, if possible. This started as a way to mix different beliefs in families into one single ceremony, but ended up as a symbol of resistance as the Magisterium frowned upon the practice, then censored it altogether.

feel free to add anything to this!

#his dark materials #hdm #hdm meta #i also have another post on the women's figure on this world #and the colleges + oakley street's job #worldbuilding

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lordeasriel · 3 years

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Effie’s Meta for His Dark Materials: a Masterpost

Per an anon request (sorry for the delay, I actually write A LOT lmao) here’s a masterpost to all the meta and analyses and other stuff I’ve written for HDM and TBOD in the past two years. Usually I add spoilers when I write analyses (and I point out which books are being spoiled), but be warned that there may still be some hints about The Book of Dust in these posts.

This will be updated in case I write new things, so you can bookmark it if you want to.

Analysis and other meta posts about His Dark Materials & novellas.

Why Asriel requires no redemption arc?

Thoughts on ‘Uncle’ Asriel.

Oakley Street during His Dark Materials.

The Three Satans: Mary, Asriel & Xaphania.

Why Marisa lied to Lyra about their relation?

Thoughts on Lyra and Asriel’s similarities.

Lyra’s relationship with Asriel.

Thoughts on Ruta Skadi.

Thoughts on the Witches.