THERE ARE OTHER WAYS DID NOT GO WHERE I WAS EXPECTING IT TO OH MY GOD /POS

PENELOPE’S THEME AND INSTRUMENT?? ODYSSEUS BEING QUITE LITERALLY BACKED INTO A CORNER AND HAVING SEEMINGLY NO OTHER WAY TO SAVE HIS MEN BUT STILL NOT BEING ABLE TO BRING HIMSELF TO GO THROUGH WITH THE ACT (EVEN THO IT WOULDN’T BE A TRUE ACT OF BETRAYAL BECAUSE THERE’S NO ACTUAL CONSENT ON HIS SIDE AND IT WAS SOMETHING HE WAS ABOUT TO BE COERCED INTO)??? CIRCE BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF BEFORE AND BELIEVING THAT “BECOMING THE PUPPETEER” IS THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP HERSELF AND HER NYMPHS SAFE SO SHE OFFERS THIS “ACT OF PASSION” TO STILL HAVE A FORM OF CONTROL, AND THEN SEEING ODYSSEUS IS NOT LIKE THOSE BEFORE BECAUSE HE’S SO IN LOVE WITH PENELOPE (WHO HE HASN’T SEEN IN 12 YEARS) THAT HE REFUSES HER OFFER AND PLEADS BECAUSE IT’S NOT WORTH IT EVEN THO THATS THE ONLY OPTION HE’S BEEN GIVEN??? HIM CALLING HIMSELF A PUPPET MAKING HER REALIZE THAT THIS CYCLE OF ABUSE AND CONTROL ISN’T WORTH IT ONLY TO COME TO A MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE SHE KNOWS WHAT IT’S LIKE TO BE TRULY IN LOVE AND TO BE HURT, SO SHE OFFERS HIM AN ACT OF KINDNESS INSTEAD???

“Maybe showing one act of kindness leads to kinder souls down the road”

NOT THE THEATRE NERDS BREAKING NOT JUST YOUTUBE, NOT JUST CROWDCAST, BUT DISCORD AS WELL FOR THE EPIC CIRCE LISTENING STREAM

tbh

(the album cover is so cooooool!!)

When I first heard There Are Other Ways, I was a little disappointed by the fact that Circe didn’t successfully seduce Odysseus, considering the huge Greek Mythology nerd I am.

Bear with me.

Then, I played the saga, and that song, for my wonderful mother tonight. About halfway through, I gasped.

The story is accurate to the Homeric version: he confronts her (clandestinely at first), she fights back, he pulls the sword.

But she’s not afraid. Of course she isn’t.

Why would an immortal being, with the rage and power of commanding a million different beasts if her Plan A goes down, be afraid of a measly man with a flimsy toothpick to her throat, just because he ate a flower and said “Be afraid!”?

That’s right! She wouldn’t.

Because Jay didn’t submit to the blatant misogyny of the tale.

Read this article for incredible information, if you please. It changed the way I saw Circe’s story.

If Circe cowered, simply because a man held a sword to her throat, only then would she have seduced him (if we’re going ultra-canon with the storyline, which Jay isn’t), which would have, yet again, thrown off the balance of power.

Circe could give less of a shit about the sword, in the song. She thinks he’s pretty hot, and maybe she’s manipulating him into coming to bed with her so she can trick him, so she offers a tryst or two. Here, if you read the article, she is throwing off the nature of men and women by being the active sexual partner.

He refuses, too enamored with Penelope, and shuns his curiosity in her. You can hear how it pains him, it’s a struggle to say no. But he does. He’s strong, he’s no god, cheating on his wife for the sake of sex appeal. He’s just a man.

He begs. That’s the thing that got me. Not her, him.

“So I beg you, Circe, grant us mercy, and let us puppets leave~”

Then, Circe offers to help him — not because she’s restoring the nature of being submissive — but because she has empathy and compassion for the man. She helps him because he’s proved himself, to be weary, and faithful, and human. She knows the feeling of love.

So, yes. So many layers. Like an onion, worthy of making you cry.

1. Jay is spitting in the face of misogyny and gender roles, and having her help him because she empathizes. Because she’s in power.

2. It’s sort of a jab, if interpreted a certain way, at sexual assault. He says no, and he holds true to it. Even though everything is telling him to give in, to let it happen, he refuses, and remains as sure as he can be.

3. It shows how very human Odysseus is. Athena forgot it, and somehow held him to it. Even the men forget it. But he never does. There is only so much he can do.

This is my favorite saga so far.

So, I LOVE Epic: This Musical and I'm excited for some of the songs in the Circe Saga, but one of TWO songs that I absolutely DESPISE in this musical is coming out and I'm so stressed out about it.

"There Are Other Ways" and "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You" make me so frustrated because it looks like they fall into downplaying the coercion and abuse Odysseus went through because the abusers are women. AND I HATE THAT.

"There Are Other Ways" is a song between a person who has power to force a person into doing what they want (Circe) and their victim (Odysseus), who can only comply. And from what I've read it has the line "There's no puppet here."

It's really clever writing because if you know the story, you know Odysseus is in a precarious situation and he was told by Hermes that when she asked to sleep with him, he needed to do it. Here's three different translations of the moment Hermes tells him "Don't you tell her no" with the warning from Hermes bolded:

"'And I will tell thee all the baneful wiles of Circe. She will mix thee a potion, and cast drugs into the food; but even so she shall not be able to bewitch thee, for the potent herb that I shall give thee will not suffer it. And I will tell thee all. When Circe shall smite thee with her long wand, then do thou draw thy sharp sword from beside thy thigh, and rush upon Circe, as though thou wouldst slay her. And she will be seized with fear, and will bid thee lie with her. Then do not thou thereafter refuse the couch of the goddess, that she may set free thy comrades, and give entertainment to thee. But bid her swear a great oath by the blessed gods, that she will not plot against thee any fresh mischief to thy hurt, lest when she has thee stripped she may render thee a weakling and unmanned.’

“ ‘And I will tell you of all the wicked witchcraft that Circe will try to practice upon you. She will mix a potion for you to drink, and she will drug the meal with which she makes it, but she will not be able to charm you, for the virtue of the herb that I shall give you will prevent her spells from working. I will tell you all about it. When Circe strikes you with her wand, draw your sword and spring upon her as though you were going to kill her. She will then be frightened, and will desire you to go to bed with her; on this you must not directly refuse her, for you want her to set your companions free, and to take good care also of yourself, but you must make her swear solemnly by all the blessed gods that she will plot no further mischief against you, or else when she has got you naked she will unman you and make you fit for nothing.’

"I will tell you all Circe’s fatal wiles. She will mix a drink for you, blending drugs with the food, but even so she will fail to enchant you: the powerful herb I will give you will prevent it. Let me tell you the rest. When Circe strikes you with her length of wand, draw your sharp sword and rush at her, as if you intend to kill her. She will be seized with fear. Then she’ll invite you to her bed, and don’t refuse the goddess’ favours, if you want her to free your men, and care for you too. But make her swear a solemn oath by the blessed gods that she won’t try to harm you with her mischief, lest when you are naked she robs you of courage and manhood.”’

He had no choice in the matter. It was a "you will have to sacrifice yourself OR you will never get your men back and you won't be safe if you don't do it" moment. While Circe's not telling this directly to Odysseus, it's still COERCION because he knows if he says "No, I want to be faithful to my wife" Circe will harm him. But a lot of people don't know that and are going to continue to perpetuate the idea that Odysseus cheated on his wife. 😒 And they're going to use that line of "There's no puppets here" as "proof" that Odysseus cheated.

If you can sympathize with Ovid's later adaptation of Medusa as a victim of Poseidon, but refuse to acknowledge Odysseus was as much a victim of Circe AND Calypso and claim he's cheating... Please, ask yourself: why is that?

Homer Describing Odysseus: A head shorter than Agamemnon but wider in shoulders and in chest, strong legs and arms

Modern fanart: OK I shall make Odysseus shorter than literally ANY other character!

Like...come on guys! 😆 Agamemnon was also described to be taller than many men around the Greeks hahahaha and okay even if Odysseus could potentially be shorter than many other heroes in the war why the heck is literally EVERY character taller?! Including females?! Hahaha 😆 I mean I get it for goddesses that by n large they are pictured as tall etc but people like Penelope? Hahaha like even nowadays average height for women in Greece is like roughly 165-170 m tall yet alone back then! Hahaha she could potentially be at least at the same height as Odysseus if not shorter like come on!

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Like allow some girls be shorter than average or average hahahaha 😆 😂 😆

So, I hate Jay now

HOW CAN HE BE THAT TALENTED AND STILL SO MEAN??? LIKE, I WANT TO LISTEN TO MY FAVORITE SONGS AND JUST CANT STOP CRYING

epic is so beautiful

So Circe Saga I'mma right?

yes.... I love it....

Eurylochus: Dude it was the scariest thing we've ever encountered.

Odyssesus: What was it?!

Circe: *waves* hi

RIP Jorge "Jay" Rivera-Herrans. Sometimes I can still hear his voice (accompanied by a black screen and sounds of confusion)

Circe Character sheet completed

I love how you can hear how Hermes scrunches his nose and steps out in front of Odysseus.

"Someone who's not afraid to... send a message."

Epic the Musical Circe fan design!

Aka, a gay man tries to draw a temptress in 2K

Oh God

Their are other ways is out

I was really hoping Jay wouldn’t go the route he did but he did :(

I love the music behind the part where Odysseus turns Searcy down but on the other hand… He completely completely erased the part where Odysseus was straight up SA’d

I… Jay I love you, BUT WHYYYY

So I listened to ""There Are Other Ways" and I have three theories to WHY Jay changed it to Odysseus breaking down and turning down Circe. 1. The year long timeskip was difficult to explain, 2. Sexual coercion/abuse is NEVER a comfy subject and he might've been worried about not handling it well, and 3. It helps ensure people understand Odysseus LOVES Penelope. Let's me explain:

Reason 1. The year long time skip is difficult to explain: In the Odyssey, we don't know what happened while Odysseus and his men stayed on Circe's island for a year, just that they were resting and recovering, but the men have to remind Odysseus about going home which makes me think something happened to make Odysseus either forget or become wary to leave, which is odd because Penelope and Telemachus are his big drive, so not wanting to leave immediately is out of character for him OR the men weren't going to move until they were ready and he was waiting for them.

Reason 2. Sexual coercion and abuse are really difficult to handle: When Hazbin Hotel snippets got leaked, everyone flipped out on Vivziepop for part of the Poison song that got leaked. Keep in mind that Vivziepop was a victim of abuse and parts of Angel's story with Valentino was pulled from her past with her toxic ex. Even so, people flipped out on her on social media for the leak, saying she was making light or not showing how awful sexual abuse is, but when Poison came out in full, people saw it really was showing the ugliness and horror of the situation. Circe's situation is more coercive and coercive situations are awful in their own right because they give the illusion of choice to the point people will blame the victim because "Well, why did they say yes? They could've said no." because people don't see or recognize the coercion. As a result, Jay might've been wary about handling the situation poorly or how fans would react. It does show the insidious nature of coercion, having Odysseus is agreeing there's no puppet, but he has to say that to get his men back and by having him breakdown and say "I can't!", it shows how much this is actually hurting him. Epic doesn't have accompanying visuals in the way Poison does, so showing how much being pushed to sleep with Circe had harmed Odysseus is really difficult with just dialogue alone.

Reason 3. It helps ensure people understand Odysseus LOVES Penelope. If you go around Tumblr, you'll see SO MANY PEOPLE BLAME ODYSSEUS FOR CIRCE AND CALYPSO. They claim Penelope deserves better than Odysseus, ignoring the sexual coercion and rape that happened to him. They shame him and say he claimed to love his wife, but slept with two other women the first chance he got. By choosing to have Odysseus breakdown at the idea of being pushed to sleep with Circe, it attacks that idea that Odysseus would choose to cheat on Penelope. It shows the true heart of Odysseus: the man who went to woo Helen of Troy, but decided her cousin, Penelope, was who he wanted to marry; the man who risked becoming an oath-breaker to stay with his wife and infant son when he was called to war; the man who didn't stay with Circe and refused immortality and staying with Calypso to go home to his mortal wife.

Adaptations are difficult. I wouldn't say it was a complete erasure, because it leads up to it, but just has Odysseus breakdown before anything happened. Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about it, because Odysseus was a victim and that shouldn't be forgotten, but I do think the song drove home that emotional impact this situation had on Odysseus in that this situation was harmful to Odysseus and that he wouldn't choose to cheat which is important. I'm a writer, not a song writer, but a writer and the idea of tackling the complex emotions of that situation and all the effects it has on a victim in one song is daunting. It's why a lot of people choose to avoid depicting situations of coercion and abuse. There's so many complex emotions tied up in situations like this and how do you accurately depict that in one song that has no visuals and is only dialogue? How do you explain the emotional pain and feelings of helplessness a victim is going through? What emotion is going to be the main one coming from the victim? Grief? Guilt? Rage? Fear? Which is more important: the event itself happening or the emotional impact?

Jay might've not gone fully into the event, but he did show the emotional impact and how much this situation hurt Odysseus with him breaking down and begging Circe to grant him and his men mercy. He showed Odysseus struggling with what he had to do to save his men. Comparing to most adaptations, this one actually does show some of the emotional pain Odysseus must've had in the situation, rather than painting it as Odysseus romancing Circe or cheating on Penelope. It's not perfect, but it gives Odysseus more understanding in the situation than most adaptations do, so I'm relieved and grateful for that.