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The Iron Islands Was Never Getting Independence - 6x09 & 8x02 Parallels
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So I was rewatching GoT for reasons and I came across this 6x09 scene (love that episode!!!) and I already kind of knew that they were setting up Jon's, Dany's, and Sansa's endgame in this episode, setting them up for their final chapter, but now rewatching it, it blows me away just how obvious it was how things were going to pan out in the end. That Dany would be the final boss. That it was going to revolve around her, Jon, and Sansa. All that.
This scene is one of those obvious instances.
Theon and Yara have always been mirrors for Jon and Sansa since Theon and Yara reunited after Ramsay. For their sibling relationship as well as the power pair they present and represent for their home/family/kingom. In this 6x09 scene, it's no different.
A lot of people have made the point that Dany granted the Iron Islands their independence because Yara/Theon asked while she didn't grant the North to Sansa/Jon because Sansa demanded. They couldn't be more wrong. It's all right here in the dialogue:
Dany: "You've brought us a hundred ships from the Iron Fleet with men to sail them. In return I expect you'll want me to support your claim to the throne of the Iron Islands?" - here nothing about independence is brought up yet but here it makes the dynamic clear: they would need Dany's support for the claim to the Salt Throne, meaning 1) that "kingship" is less than the king/queen of the 7K and it's only allowed to continue for a certain individual if the ruler of the 7K allows it, and 2) she is not coming from a mindset of granting them independence or acquiescing to their request
Theon: "Not my claim. Hers."
Dany: "Oh, what's wrong with you?" - for a woman who wants to rule the 7K in a place she has been told that no other Queen has ruled in (this is right before Cersei takes the IT), it's odd that instead of asking "why is that?" or "oh? interesting" or even being happy about another woman in a ruling position that's granted less than hers, it's an odd question to ask what's wrong with Theon -- I think the writers did this purposely to show a subtle difference between Dany's rhetoric that she consistently sells and how she actually is while also implying she intends to be the only Queen in the 7K, right down to the sub-monarchies (if that's a word)
Theon: "I'm not fit to rule."
Tyrion: "We can agree upon that at least."
Dany: "Has the Iron Islands ever had a queen before?" - oh, suddenly she's interested to hear this fact, why? because it now helps turn up the flames of hope for her destiny so to speak
Yara: "No more than Westeros."
Theon: "Our uncle Euron returned home after a long absence. He murdered our father and took the Salt Throne from Yara. He would've murdered us if we stayed." - what's interesting here is not only are Euron and Dany paralleled this season but also Theon/Yara are the antithesis of Viserys/Dany considering that's what happened to them, the latter two's father was killed in the rebellion/the IT being taken and they would have been killed had they not fled; but it also proves again that Theon/Yara are Jon/Sansa mirrors because Ned was murdered, the North was taken from Bran (aka the future rightful king after the vote in 8x06) by Theon and then it was taken by Ramsay, Bran & Rickon had to flee and then Sansa and Theon had to flee Ramsay
Dany: "Lord Tyrion tells me your father was a terrible king."
Yara: "You and I have that in common." - it's true, they do, but I'm also highlighting this line because it comes back around in 8x02
Dany: "We do. And both murdered by a usurper as well. Will their ships be enough?" - Dany immediately switches gears here - she sees the commonality they have, something she always uses when spreading her rhetoric to gain allies and subjects followers, but switches to "hey, do we have enough or no?" Meaning depending on the answer is what depends on her agreeing to ally with Theon and Yara
Tyrion: "With the former Masters' fleet, possibly. Barely. There are more than a hundred ships in the Iron Fleet." - if this line doesn't have Davos' line from 7x02 "If they break through the wall, do we have enough men to fight them?" & Jon bringing Dany and her dragons North to fight the Night King vibes all over it...
Theon: "There are. And Euron is building more. He's going to offer them to you."
Dany: "So why shouldn't I wait for him?" - this is exactly the same type of attitude we see displayed in 7x03-7x06; after everything she's just heard about Euron so far, no hesitation, "if he's got more ships why shouldn't I wait for him?"; a lot of people defend Dany's reluctance to help the North because of Jon's outrageous claims of the dead walking, she doesn't know who he is right away, and he should bow to her because the North is rightfully hers - but this line right here, it shows she only has one goal in mind and it's not to come to save people from a tyrant or to instill the rightful ruler back on the IT so she can leave the world better than she found it for her people - this is before the reception she gets in Westeros and then the North - it's RIGHT HERE
Theon: "The Iron Fleet isn't all he's bringing. He also wants to give you--"
Yara: "His big cock I think he said. Euron's offer is also an offer of marriage, you see. You won't get one without the other." - we see in 6x10 that Dany is more than well aware that she most likely will have to marry to secure an alliance over in Westeros, the when being the only question besides who - she knew this from what happened in Mereen and how she was going to have to marry to keep the peace before all hell broke loose, she knows this
Dany: "And I imagine your offer is free of any marriage demands?" - so now she's considering their offer, while she says this almost teasingly to Yara, we know that she knows she has to marry at some point and if she can secure the whole Iron Fleet, why wouldn't she? Especially since her single-minded focus is the IT? Because she doesn't want to marry aka she doesn't want to share power (something we see in season 8 after Jon tells her who he really is and how hard she works to keep him in that subservient dynamic by forbidding him from telling anyone) which is also how you can tell that throne room scene dialogue in 8x06 was rewritten in the 11th hour at Emilia's request (something she has gone on record admitting to), it was meant to be Dance of the Dragons 2.0 and it was coming down to one of them prevailing over the other
Yara: "I never demand but I'm up for anything really."
Theon: "He murdered our father and would have murdered us. He'll murder you as soon as he has what he wants." - not only are we getting another Aerys/Viserys/Dany reminder here but now Dany has her justification for not entertaining Euron's would-be proposal and allying herself to Yara and Theon despite their lower number of ships (I don't blame her here, I'm just calling a spade a spade)
Tyrion: "The Seven Kingdoms."
Theon: "All of them."
Dany: "And you don't want the Seven Kingdoms?" - exactly what she has been worried about - she's never wanted to share them so she's making doubly sure
Theon: "Your ancestors defeated ours. They took the Iron Islands, we ask you to give them back." - as Dany will remind us and Jon in 7x03, Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon Targaryen, the original conqueror she's been trying to be the second coming of - this not only has the North vibes due to that parallel but because it also links to 8x02
Dany: "And that's all?" - sounds like here it's simple for Dany, right? Wrong...
Yara: "We'd like you to help us murder an uncle or two who don't think a woman's fit to rule." - another line echoed in 8x02
Dany: "Reasonable." - about killing the uncle
Tyrion: "What if everyone starts demanding their independence?" - not only should Tyrion not be asking Dany this in the presence of Yara/Theon who have not been made allies officially yet, it's obvious they're having him point this out because it's going to lead to what happens in 8x02
Dany: "She's not demanding. She's asking. The others are free to ask as well." - 'which doesn't mean they'll get it' is the end of that sentence
Dany: "Our fathers were evil men. All of us here. They left the world worse than they found it. We're not going to do that. We're going to leave the world better than we found it." - more Dany rhetoric
Dany: "You will support my claim as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and respect the integrity of the Seven Kingdoms." THIS IS HER ANSWER RIGHT HERE - no independence for you Iron Islands, you're still a sub-monarchy but part of my 7K so no you don't get them back
Dany: "No more reaving, roving, raiding, or raping." - she reaffirms that with these conditions (which I agree with her here but the point is she's making it clear what she expects aka no independence)
Yara: "That's our way of life." - you mean like Dany is about to uproot Westerosi life as we know it in 8x05 and want to continue to do?
Dany: "No more." - "We can't build the new world with men loyal to the one we have." - 8x06
Yara: "No more." - having no choice, Yara agrees because at this point the other Lannisters don't care who sits on the Salt Throne (since they still have Tommen at this point) as long as they get any ships they need so it won't matter if Theon and Yara get murdered while Euron takes over/rules the Iron Islands - Yara knows they're not getting independence which is exactly why this little nugget isn't mentioned in her speech in 8x06 before Arya tells her to shut up about killing Jon
*Yara lifts her arm to Dany, after some confusion, Dany embraces her arm and they shake on it* (aka Yara and Theon get to live another day and hopefully have some dragon power backing them and they have a new 7K Queen)
And then, 8x02:
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Dany: "I thought you and I were on the verge of agreement before. About Ser Jaime."
Sansa: "Brienne has been loyal to me. Always. I trust her more than anyone."
Dany: "I wish I could have that kind of faith in my advisors."
Sansa: "Tyrion is a good man. He was never anything but decent towards me."
Dany: "I didn't ask him to be my Hand simply because he was good. I asked him to be my Hand because he was good and intelligent and ruthless when he had to be. He never should've trusted Cersei."
Sansa: "You never should've either."
Dany: "I thought he knew his sister."
Sansa: "Families are complicated." (and here come the parallels to the 6x09 conversation)
Dany: "Ours certainly have been."
Sansa: "A sad thing to have in common."
Dany: "We have other things in common. We've both known what it is to lead people who aren't inclined to accept a woman's rule. And we've both done a damn good job of it from what I can tell."
(I skipped the whole Jon part of the convo)
Sansa: "I should have thanked you, the moment you arrived. That was a mistake." *she leans forward*
Dany *leans forward and covers Sansa's hand with hers*: "I'm here because I love your brother. And I trust him. And I know he's true to his word."
(skipping more Jon stuff)
Sansa: "What happens afterwards? We defeat the dead, we destroy Cersei...what happens then?" - Sansa is mentioning the agreement being honored on both sides, both of their enemies defeated, meaning they've given her her terms at that point
Dany: "I take the Iron Throne." - there's that single-minded goal again and what she really plans (she does not intend for any kingdom to secede from her 7K)
Sansa: "What about the North? It was taken from us and we took it back and we said we'd never bow to anyone else again. What about the North?" - here Sansa asks but she also lays down the line on what hers and Jon's mindset is when it comes to the North (and it's made clear by Arya in 8x04 why Jon really bent the knee to Dany in 7x06) and while it's in reference to the Boltons, it was also Theon who took the North first, and of course Aegon back in the day forcing them to bend the knee - so more parallels and just the thing Dany doesn't want to hear
And sure enough:
*Dany doesn't answer but removes her hand* - answer enough which is cemented by Sansa's expression and her sitting back away from Dany when the Maester interrupts them
And the very next scene, they literally have Theon showing up to ask Sansa if he can fight for Winterfell in the Great War. But first:
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Theon turns to face Dany as expected, sees Sansa, and then looks at Dany, bending the knee (aka no independence for you Iron Islands)
Theon: "My queen." (aka no independence for you Iron Islands)
Dany: "Your sister?" - basically her saying 'oh crap, did your sister die? I know she was taken captive but did your murderous big cock uncle kill her? Crap, where are my ships? Why am I dealing with you?'
Theon: "She only has a few ships and she couldn't sail them here. So she's sailing them to the Iron Islands instead to take them back in your name." (aka NO INDEPENDENCE FOR YOU, IRON ISLANDS)
Dany: "But why aren't you with her?" (aka my dude, why are you bothering me? Go get me my land back like your faithful sister)
And then Theon gives us the answer we're expecting when he turns to look at Sansa and then asks if he can fight for her home/family. And we know Sansa is grateful, happy, and speechless. We know Dany is shocked, dismayed, sad, and angry that she's not getting that same type of loyalty/love on this side of the Narrow Sea (8x04 convo with Jon).
So basically, anytime someone says "but Dany was going to give the Iron Islands independence, she agreed to it, Sansa was rude", etc, just point them to these two scenes. Back in 6x09 "Battle of the Bastards" (aptly named and not just for the battle or Jon vs Ramsay) where Jon's, Dany's, and Sansa's endgame are all being set up. 6x10 sets up Cersei's, Tyrion's, and even Jaime's (but that's another post).
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antianakin · 10 months
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Have you ever heard of Game of Thrones? Anakin gives me Joffrey vibes given how terrible he acts.
I feel like I'd have to have lived under a rock not to have heard of it, but yes, not only have I heard of it, I had the misfortune of getting into it and watching it all the way to the end.
The difference between Joffrey and Anakin is that Joffrey is literally a spoiled elite. He's born with a silver spoon in his mouth and treated like the most specialest special boy for his entire life, raised with no consequences for anything he ever does wrong and to believe that he's always right about everything.
Anakin is very obviously born into slavery, he spends nine years with his mother as a slave and very aware that everyone around him (Shmi excluded) sees him as the farthest thing from special specifically because of that. While we don't really see or hear about a lot of consequences for his choices, it seems inevitable that there definitely WERE consequences if he did something wrong or that one of his owners didn't like.
Where Anakin starts to lean towards Joffrey is after he meets up with Palpatine and Palpatine starts to encourage Anakin towards a belief that he's owed everything and anything he wants because he's different and therefore the rules that govern everyone else don't apply to him. But the reason Anakin is willing to believe this is because he so desperately doesn't want to go back to being considered no one and nothing, he wants the power that comes with being a Jedi, with being a Chosen One, he wants the power to keep anyone from ever owning him again, and he never wants to be told what to do ever again. There's a sympathetic reason behind why Anakin is so power-hungry that doesn't exist for Joffrey.
There's some similarity in their belief in their own importance, but Anakin IS intended to be tragic while Joffrey never is. Joffrey is built to be hated as a character, that's his place within the narrative, we never even want him to be better because someone else believes in him because even his hateful mother knows he's a shit and just has to manage him. But Anakin is built to be pitied, even after he becomes a villain (Vader is built to be hated initially and later becomes more pitiful and pathetic, but Anakin Skywalker as the character we meet in the PT is not).
I think the character I consider more similar to Anakin is probably Dany. She's someone who is introduced to us as effectively a slave, she's literally sold to a warlord as a bride for her brother's benefit, and then slowly learns to break free of that position and starts actively going after more and more power so she can reclaim something she's been told since she was very young was hers by birthright because she is special. Her goal sometimes makes no logical sense, but she doesn't care because she believes in her own special birthright so much that logic doesn't play a part. She sees herself as a hero, someone who society just doesn't understand yet but who is more right than everyone else in the way she views it, and while she's able to sit in this place for a while and still be a mostly good person, it doesn't last. Even before she decides to burn down a city full of people, there's things she's done that are questionable (not that they're more questionable than things OTHER characters have done, but they're questionable in the face of her rampant belief that she's a hero who is always doing the right thing for the right reasons). And in the end, she becomes the very villain she so sought to destroy. There's a lot of sympathy to her story, a lot of pity towards her reasons for doing what she does and believing what she believes about herself, and we start off rooting for her generally because she comes in as an underdog and it's hard not to root for the underdog.
But unlike Anakin, at least in the show, she never gets a chance for "redemption." She doesn't even get to die by sacrificing herself for someone else, she just gets manipulated into coming close enough to her boyfriend for him to literally stab her in the back. She arguably does WAY less evil than Anakin does (helped by how much less time the story takes place over), and is considered far less redeemable by the narrative than Star Wars does for Anakin. Granted, GOT and Star Wars have VERY different moralities and themes, so the fact that Anakin gets to cheat his way into Force Ghost status and stand beside the other good guys while Dany has to get put down like a rabid dog isn't exactly surprising. But it's food for thought.
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saltywinteradult · 2 years
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Hi! I’m new to your page, nice to meet you! :) I must ask, because I’m so curious! Was there ever a time where you did like Dany at all and really enjoyed her character or did your hate for her become more clear when D&D rushed her character development and she pretty much became mad in the process? I hope you enjoy HOTD a ton watching things unfold. :) I am looking forward to it! I definitely enjoy the history of the Targs and how their empire turned into ash. Anyways, have an incredible day! :)
Oh dear, I started drafting an answer to this and then completely forgot it! I suppose a very, very, very late answer is better than none at all...?
Anyway, how nice of you to give me an excuse to ramble about my complicated relationship with Dany for a while. I apologise, this got really long.
The short answer is yes, I was one hundred percent aboard the Dany hype train at one point, but that changed long before the show's writing really started going downhill. I actually still enjoy her character, but I went from liking her as a hero to appreciating her as a villain.
I think a lot of people forget that the show really whitewashed Dany's character from the very beginning in order to sell her as a Strong Female Character™ for feminism points. The sack of Astapor is probably the best example of this; Dany murders a lot of people (even if they're bad people) and the books depict how Astapor descends into chaos with many more dying as a direct result of her actions. Those consequences are largely glossed over in the show and the cinematic language of that scene frames it as a triumphant moment.
The closest thing to a watershed moment was the scene in season 4 where Hizdahr confronts Dany about her crucifying his father, despite him having spoken out against the very crime he was being punished for, the crucifixion of Meereenese children. I hadn't yet read the books at this point and I remember watching that scene and going "oh, shit. Did she not look into whether the people she punished were the ones who actually did it?" I'd assumed she must have done that, because after all, that's what a hero would do, and Dany was supposed to be a hero. Right?
I read the books between seasons 4 and 5 and was surprised by how much worse Dany comes off there. The books really are a lot more concerned with the messy reality of politics than the show ever was and that difference does not work in Dany's favour. Reading about her profiting from slavery despite selling herself as an abolitionist and utterly failing to replace the slave trade with a reliable alternative, I became more and more convinced that Dany was not a good ruler, or a hero. Her "dragons plant no trees" epiphany at the end of ADWD was what finally convinced me that she was a villain in the making - and a brilliantly written one at that. She may be one of the most powerful people in the world who controls what are essentially nukes, but she is also a child. Of course that's not going to end well. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. What an amazing character arc.
And that would have been that, if the show hadn't kept trying to sell Dany as a feminist hero long, long past the point where it should have started building up to her inevitable fall from grace. I kept expecting the show to stop whitewashing her and that moment just never seemed to come. On the contrary, the show reveled in Dany's violence and kept framing it as justified.
Worse, the way some - some - of Dany's stans behave started really getting under my skin. It's fine to interpret her character differently and to want a different ending for her in the books. She is after all a sympathetic character and the show kept framing her as a hero right up until the end, which is why I do have some sympathy for the people who didn't see it coming. At this point I wouldn't even really care that many of Dany's fans to this day still deny that she has ever done anything wrong, if it weren't for the fact that some of them - again, some - go out of their way to harass and pick fights with the people who criticise Dany. The times that people have come into the notes of my (correctly tagged, mind you) Dany-critical posts to aggressively attack my opinion in really nasty ways are too numerous to count. Respectful disagreement is one thing; attacks and toxicity are quite another.
Again, I promise, I really do understand why some people didn't see her fall from grace coming and felt betrayed by it. But attacking the people who did see it coming and pointed it out is where I draw the line. That is where my sympathy ends.
And unfortunately, my annoyance with the people who behave this way started bleeding into my feelings about Dany herself. I still like her as a wonderfully written villain (in the books, at least) but I am now at a point where I'm really annoyed by her, because I've seen so, so many people defend even her most indefensible actions and attack those who think differently. Again, I thought she was going to go dark years before she actually did. Plenty of people predicted it. She's always been a villain. A sympathetic and fascinating villain, but a villain nonetheless.
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patetemult · 8 months
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This is the face of a sapphic that has been Going Through It for 40 odd eps, and I feel it so much
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thatonebadideapanda · 6 months
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marvelousbelladonna · 2 months
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The Marisha texting saga
Even on a small phone screen, Marisha looks stunning
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natp20 · 2 years
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this
this is why i love them
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counterspelling · 11 months
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Endless 4SD
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chaosgenasi · 1 year
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[DANI]: Ashton means a lot to me, personally, based on my own chronic illness struggles and my own chronic pain struggles. And so it's been very emotional to see that represented in you, and I know how incredible it is for you to have this catharsis as well to get to play him. And it means a lot to me to be able to see their journey.
+bonus:
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time-passes-byy · 8 months
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Dani, within 10 minutes on 4SD, episode 16:
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Part 2: there was a lot GA scoffing at the idea of Sansa’s political acumen but this scene really shows how clever and skilled she is and it’s not recognised as such. She sussed out Dany’s true feeling on Jon, that she’s a hypocrite and not a liberator only seeking peoples freedom, that the iron throne is her one goal. Sansa figured out in one conversation what Jon took weeks to figure out on Dragonstone and Tyrion and Varys even longer. Sansa clocked it in like a day. True Queen material there
I don't know if this was connected to the previous ask or not but I apologize if not.
The GA really didn't get Sansa's character and I blame D&D for that quite a bit. They tried to bait people to watch by promoting some huge power struggle about to take place between Sansa and Jon, now that he's been made KitN, right before season 7 aired, knowing full well that Jon was a fan favorite. They even had the actors themselves doing their dirty work for them while promoting the new season. So that already planted the seed in several minds of Sansa doesn't want Jon to be King and she's Littlefinger 2.0 and all that stupid bullshit. And they did it not only to get people to come back for the new season but also to get the audience to expect something that they could subvert, which had become their MO at that point. Even though Sansa told Jon and the audience that she's not looking to undermine him, and telling their siblings how much she can't wait for him to come back in so many words, they still spend the whole season trying to convince everyone that Littlefinger is playing her, she wants to be Queen, and she's waiting to betray Jon at any moment she can. So this way in 7x07 they could have the student surpass the teacher and go 'Ha ha' to the audience when Sansa executes Littlefinger. Subvert, subvert, subvert!
And as if that wasn't enough to prove Sansa's political acumen to the GA, to show that she actually has some smarts (in case they missed it all season, from KL as a matter of fact), they not only (purposely) missed the things you mentioned in 8x02, but that she did the exact same thing she did in 7x07 with Littlefinger when she sussed him out. His goal was the IT with her at his side (him really just wanting to use her to get the North). Dany's goal is also the IT and she doesn't intend to let the North go. So not only did Sansa see Cersei-like qualities in 8x01 but now she's seeing Littlefinger-like qualities in 8x02. Which is cemented in 8x04 when Dany pulls the Gendry move. I truly believe had Littlefinger survived, Dany would have executed him eventually because I don't believe she would have been fooled. I think she would've seen right through him. But that's a post for another day.
But yeah, it's a shame the GA discounts the brilliance and talent for political strategy that Sansa was displaying those last two seasons. It was right there in front of their faces but as usual, they purposely ignored it (well, most of them did, some people didn't genuinely see it and that's where my blaming D&D comes in because viewers shouldn't have to do a Rubik's cube to figure out a character and their true motivations, thinking process, and actions) and some brilliant moments for her character and some brilliant writing actually got missed (dismissed). Which I believe does somewhat of a disservice to Dany and Cersei too because they shared that brilliance as well despite any wrong choices they may have made. Cersei miscalculated when it came to Dany and went past a line she couldn't come back from and Dany miscalculated that everyone would want her new world and she crossed a line she couldn't come back from. They both wanted power for different reasons. As we know, Sansa didn't want power, only freedom and the ability to keep her family and herself safe. So it made sense that she was the only Queen in the end and not of the 7K
Like you said, true Queen material right there. I wish more people could gain a better understanding of her character and appreciate the brilliant woman she actually is.
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theoddest1 · 2 months
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Oh, that's Viv being mutuals with one of the main people who supposedly harassed Shay(fan who killed themselves) and was straight up gross, immature, and threatened people within the fandom.
Oh, that's Viv showing that she was indeed aware of the Shay situation (Dani has talked about it) and pretty evidently not caring enough to talk about it or scold her fanbase over it.
Oh, that's Viv showing she's a bitch for being for people like Dani but pissy over criticism.
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patetemult · 8 months
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re the tether talk (but it could have been about any of their scenes lbr)
Bonus screenshot, bc it just makes me happy
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g1ngerbeer · 14 days
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the rolling with difficulty critical role crossover would be hilarious. and full of guns (@indigorithmic)
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marvelousbelladonna · 2 months
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Liam’s backup character
Chetney is best boy
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feykingfrumpkin · 1 year
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having a fabulous time watching critical role’s latest stream
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