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dn-838 · 5 months

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In defence of Undertale Yellow, how it can work with Undertale’s canon

So, I have seen a lot of debating recently on Undertale Yellow and whether or not it fits what we know already about the lore in Undertale. Of course Flowey’s presence in the mod is the primary thing that has sparked this debate, with many believing that he can’t have existed at the same time as the Justice Soul and that it is a major hole that breaks the continuity of Undertale. I however, as someone who has spent way too much time with Undertale and has vast knowledge about even the most obscure of details in the game, disagree. I believe that Undertale Yellow fits the original games canon well… maybe a bit too well, and I am here to give my own arguments against the things that I commonly see people say doesn’t fit the original game’s continuity. This may contain a few spoilers for Undertale Yellow, so unless you’ve already seen all 3 routes or for whatever reason don’t care about having the game spoiled, don’t read further until you are done.

Argument 1: all the Souls were already collected by the creation of Flowey and the amalgamates

Okay so this one I don’t really have much to say about. Yes Flowey and the Amalgamates were created using the SOULs of some of the collected humans, however it’s never specified that it was from 6 humans, all that’s made clear is that Asgore did have human SOULs (in plural) that were used in the experiment.

Argument 2: the timeline doesn’t match up

The timeline has always been a confusing topic among the Undertale community. While the most likely estimate of the gap between Chara and Frisk falling is 100 years due to what Sans tells us during his date.

There are a few reasons for us to believe that the gap is much smaller, especially considering the weird nature of the Deltarune timeline and the supposed grudge Chara seems to have against Snowdrake in Genocide (who is stated to only be a teenager).

However, no matter how you view the timeline, unless you have specific dates in mind for things like when Gaster was the Royal Scientist and when the fall of Integrity-Justice happened, or think the gap was REALLY short, Undertale Yellow doesn’t really contradict it too much. The game itself is meant to take place just a year before Undertale, with all the same characters existing in similar positions to how they do by the time of Undertale, however we never encounter them due to being on a completely different path that takes us to very different parts of the underground, being why they don’t behave like they encountered a human before in Undertale.

Integrity is a bit more interesting, because it can vary massively depending on how you view the lifespans of the Ketsukane’s, Starlo (Starlo won’t be important to this, but I mention him since he was childhood friends with Ceroba) and Dalv. It is strongly implied that as a kid, Dalv was best friends with Kanako, and was attacked by the Integrity human some point before the games events. At first you’d assume that this was all not meant to be long before the events of the game, however, Integrity was killed by Axis in UTY, a robot that was being worked on by Chujin back when the Steamworks were still in operation, which we can assume was long before the events of the game due to the state of the Steamworks itself and the fact it is stated to have been used as the source of all power in the underground, which would mean it would likely have shut down around the period that the CORE was first put into operation, so all the way back when Gaster was still the Royal Scientist, whenever you think that was (Axis wasn’t sent to kill the human until after Chujin was fired from his position, however due to the way Axis is locked up and deactivated before we wake up the Steamworks, we can assume he was shut down with the rest of the facility). On top of all this Dalv is shown to be a lot older than he presumably would have been when he was attacked by Integrity, and with him being a Vampire, you could say that he aged that much at a slower rate than a human would, with the Ketsukane’s also aging slow, 2 of them being Boss Monsters and one of them being a 9 tailed fox. We know that some monsters do likely age at very different rates due to monsters like Gerson who lived through the war.

So to give the whole timeline, basically, Chujin worked in the Steamworks and made Axis back before or during Gaster’s time as the royal scientist. After several failed prototypes that eventually got Chujin fired, Axis was sent to chase down and kill Integrity. He managed and Chujin kept the Soul hidden and over the span of years recorded a few tapes for what he had planning, meanwhile Dalv, who was previously attacked by Integrity, went into hiding, locking himself into a mostly dark and unknown part of the ruins. At some point when Alphy’s became the Royal Scientist, Chujin started to mentor Martlet, which led Martlet to enter the True Lab and get some strange serum. Eventually Chujin died around a year or two before UTY, revealing his hidden tapes to Ceroba, which Kanako overheard. This led to Ceroba attempting to inject Kanako with the Integrity soul, leading to Kanako falling and being donated to Alphy’s, and her of course then becoming an amalgamate.

Argument 3: Asgore killed all 6 of the other humans

Okay so this one is interesting, because Undyne does imply that humans before Frisk did make it to Asgore, with her saying that “no human has ever made it PAST Asgore” rather than “no human has ever made it TO Asgore”

The thing is, that other humans reached Asgore is all this really does imply, it doesn’t necessarily mean all humans made it to Asgore. You could argue that most of them died to Asgore, with Integrity and Justice being the only exceptions. If you really want to stretch you could even say that this line was actually just another attempt from Undyne to make Asgore sound like a powerful and threatening force (since she tries to make him out like that quite a bit in her fight, such as by saying that killing us is an act of mercy right after this), although I find this unlikely.

There is another line of dialogue that I sometimes see used to try and prove that Asgore killed all 6, and while it’s not used close to as much, I’ll still just quickly clear it up.

This doesn’t really mean that much, all it’s saying is that all the humans that leave the ruins inevitably die. She likely wouldn’t know any details on their deaths do to her isolation, and even if she had some knowledge she would probably still place the blame on Asgore due to his part in waging war and coming up with the plan to kill 7 humans in the first place.

Argument 4: The introduction of new incredibly powerful characters makes no sense

Okay, so this is a weird one, however the explanation for it is fairly simple. Nobody in UTY compares to the original Undertale cast when it comes to how “powerful” they are. We struggle so much against the opponents we face as Clover because well… Clover is much weaker than Frisk, bosses like Ceroba and Axis pale in comparison to Undyne and Mettaton, they just seem much harder since we are playing as a human with much less determination than Frisk. In Pacifist Clover fights a depressed fox lady, meanwhile Frisk fights a literal god; in Neutral Clover goes through a struggle fighting through Flowey’s mind after having his Soul absorbed, meanwhile Frisk holds on against Flowey with 6 Souls until those Souls rebel; and in Genocide Clover takes some time to finally destroy Axis, the failed prototype that got Chujin fired, meanwhile Frisk atomised Mettaton NEO, The greatest invention of the Scientist who was selected to replace Gaster, in a single blow.

The only Undertale Yellow character that I’d say surpasses any character in Undertale would of course be Zenith Martlet, but even then LV 19 Frisk would mop the floor with her, while LV 19 Clover had to go through a lot of effort to beat her, only ever managing to surpass Flowey in Determination after doing so. At LV 20 both Clover and Frisk have massive boosts from LV 19, however Frisk is far stronger, having awakened Chara and caused the destruction of everything, while Clover just destroys Asgore with a super laser blast directly from their Soul and leaves.

Argument 5: miscellaneous

Just to clear up any further confusion, I’ll give quick explanations for some more minor points that I have encountered

Nobody in the original Undertale apart from Flowey, Toriel and Asgore meets Clover, so the other monsters in Undertale acting like they had never met one makes sense.

Flowey not just stealing Clovers Soul is explained well by the game itself. He plans to, however he doesn’t get the chance in Pacifist; sees that we couldn’t surpass Asgore in Flawed Pacifist; steals our soul but is unsatisfied with the outcome and resets in Neutral, and gets gunned down in Genocide.

Toriel believing that it’s been a long time since a previous human fell when she sees Frisk in Undertale doesn’t mean much, she mostly lives isolated in the Ruins, with the other monsters being too afraid to speak with her, considering this and just generally how much seemed to have happened within that year, time could have felt much slower. Alternatively you could argue that the 6 humans all fell within months of each other, and that a years gap is a long time in comparison to the rate the first 6 fell (or 5, since she says the exact same thing to Clover).

Both Flowey and Clover using file 1 at the end of Genocide doesn’t fit what we know about save files no, however I feel it is a little nit-picky to use it as a definitive reason to discredit how well UTY fits into canon, after all the only thing you’d need to do is change the numbers and this would be fixed.

The Gunsmith having been born a week before the Human Vs Monster war doesn’t go against anything we already know. As stated before, we know that at least some monsters like Gerson do live for a very long time.

Flowey having more determination than Clover also doesn’t break anything. Flowey was injected with DT from 5 human Souls. The thing is that Frisk was special when it came to the amount of determination they had.

Unlike with most of the other cast, nobody in Undertale actually indicates that Flowey never met a human prior to Frisk.

Chujin being a boss Monster doesn’t contradict what we know about Boss Monsters. We know that the Dreemurrs are boss monsters, but nothing tells us that they are the only boss monsters.

Argument 6: the nature of the SAVE files contradicts Undertale Yellow

Here we go, the penultimate argument I shall argue against. Never did I expect for this obscure piece of Undertale lore to be the bane of my existence but here we are. For a short time I thought that this could not be countered, only after I had walked away from a discussion completely defeated did the pieces finally start to come together, and now finally… I have an explanation.

First things first, let’s look at the 10 save files. The files go from file 0 to file 9. We know that File 0 likely belongs to Chara due to it being the one that we save with in Undertale, and that file 9 belongs to Frisk since it works as the games Autosave/Checkpoint system. File 8 would then of course belong to Flowey, not just because it’s the one just before Frisks but because File 8 appears in your files after you beat Omega Flowey to mark your completion of a Neutral run, likely implying that his previous SAVE was of course when he was Omega Flowey. Flowey also uses files 2, 3 and 6 throughout the Omega Flowey battle, and since Toriel implies that other humans who fell were also able to save and reset, we can assume that 2-6 likely belonged to previously fallen humans.

Now the only files that need an explanation are file 1 and file 7, and I’ve seen 2 interesting theories for this. The first is that file 1 belongs to Asriel after he took Chara’s Soul, and the other is that file 7 belongs to Lemon Bread since they know what a SAVE point looks like and tries to trick us with it; but the thing is, which one of these are true? Surely it can’t be both since we know one needs to belong to the 6th… okay I’ll cut that out you already know I’m going to say they are both true.

So for Asriel having file 1, he absorbed Chara’s Soul so should have all of their determination and therefore should also have overtaken their ability to SAVE. Of course it’s unlikely that Asriel would have made anything out of it since the idea of saving and loading was fairly alien to Flowey, however that doesn’t necessarily rule out the possibility that Asriel didn’t SAVE or at least have a file created.

Lemon Bread is a bit more complicated, and we are gonna need to look into the order of events within the True Lab to try and work this out. Firstly, we need to look at some of the true lab entries.

ASGORE asked everyone outside the city for monsters that had "fallen down."

Their bodies came in today.

They're still comatose... And soon, they'll all turn into dust.

But what happens if I inject "determination" into them?

If their SOULS persist after they perish, then...

Freedom might be closer than we all thought.

This is entry 6, when the fallen down monsters are given to Alphy’s and have Determination injected into them.

I've chosen a candidate.

I haven't told ASGORE yet, because I want to surprise him with it...

In the center of his garden, there's something special.

The first golden flower, that grew before all the others.

The flower from the outside world.

It appeared just before the queen left.

I wonder...

What happens when something without a SOUL gains the will to live?

This is entry 8, Alphy’s gets a hold of a golden flower that she injects Determination into.

“One of the bodies opened its eyes.

This is entry 13, when the fallen monsters started to regain consciousness, 7 entries after they were first delivered.

Seems like this research was a dead end...

But at least we got a happy ending out of it...?

I sent the SOULS back to ASGORE, returned the vessel to his garden....

And I called all of the families and told them everyone's alive.

I'll send everyone back tomorrow. :)

This is entry 15, by this point all the monsters that had fallen down were awake, and the still not conscious Golden Flower was still just a Flower, being returned alongside the human Souls.

no No NO NO NO NO NO

This is entry 16, the fallen down monsters started to melt together and create the amalgamates.

the flower's gone.

Finally, we have entry 18, when Alphy’s noticed that the Flower seems to have disappeared from the garden, 10 entries after she first selected it.

So, why are these entries so important? Well we know that to have ever held the ability to SAVE, Lemon Bread would have to had held the right amount of Determination before Flowey first became conscious in the garden, and did they? Yes, yes they did. Flowey could have awakened anywhere in the timeframe between entry 15 when he was returned to entry 18 when Alphy’s noticed him gone, however all the fallen down monsters that were injected with Determination were already awake by this point, and therefore prior to Flowey waking up, they would have been the most determined beings in the underground, perhaps with enough determination that whichever monster happened to have the most was able to SAVE. The time that they would have had with the ability would also have at least been for longer than Asriel had it since Flowey can’t have awoken until after a couple entries later at the bare minimum. Of course since this follows the idea that Lemon Bread had the SAVE ability since they knew what a SAVE point looks like, we can assume that the monster in question would have been Shyren’s sister, since I doubt that the Moldbygg and Aaron that also make up Lemon Bread would hold such a role.

Argument 7: Flowey’s backstory

I really thought I was done with this infuriating Flower, but it appears not. For there is a single hole I need to clear up… Flowey’s Genocide speech. Of course this should be fairly simple to clear up-

Ah… well okay this makes things interesting. If Flowey didn’t know where the Souls were stored then that would make it very hard to believe that Flowey ever encountered a human before Frisk since if that were the case then Flowey would definitely have an opportunity to sneak by and see where they are hiding, however this is not what the dialogue actually means. Flowey knew where the Souls were, he sneaks in to steal them in Neutral while we are talking to a defeated Asgore, his only issue was that he wasn’t able to get them out without Asgore. In repeated Neutral runs he still just waits until we are distracted with Asgore to take the Souls, and in Pacifist he takes them while the main cast are all distracted which again is when the canisters are open and available.

On a last note, here’s some dialogue that actually helps the idea that Flowey encountered another human.

It’s made clear all throughout the underground that humans have far greater Determination than monsters, and while you could argue that Flowey was just overconfident in his abilities, it’s still fairly strange that Flowey would still find a human having the DT to overwrite his abilities something special, unless of course he’d encountered a human previously who wasn’t able to do as much.

Conclusion

So, that’s about all I have to say, honestly I’m just glad to be done with it. This was a lot of work, and I’m excited to see this post which I’ve been working on for 3 days get completely dismantled almost immediately. Anyways, wish everyone reading a good day and goodbye!

#undertale #undertale theory #undertale yellow #undertale fangame #indie games #ut yellow #uty

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exiledelle · 5 months

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UNDERTALE YELLOW MERCILESS ROUTE SPOILERS

ive seen a couple people here and there be upset over how the route ends, but i want to give my two cents on why i actually really like it

(btw this is not at all me saying people HAVE to enjoy it, or arent allowed to dislike it, just sharing my own take on it)

if youve clicked the read more im going to assume youve played through the merciless route and seen its ending, or dont care about spoilers for it

otherwise what the heck are you doing here

but basically, what ive seen people get upset over a lot, is the fact that clover kills asgore and flowey instantly, takes the human souls, and then just waltzes out of the underground and beyond the players reach (which is my personal take on why resetting goes back to floweys control, and clover forgetting, instead of to when clover unlocks the save ability, is its not clover or flowey resetting, but us. the player IS a distinctly separate entity in ut/dr after all)

but honestly?? what else COULD have happened?? asgore couldnt handle frisk at level ONE. he didnt stand even a FRACTION of a chance against an lv 20 clover, who might i add, has a giant laser beam, a degree of soul magic not even frisk obtains. you COULD argue chara uses soul magic to "kill" our save file at the end of undertales merciless route though, i could see that, but still, clovers laser is a much more direct and obvious show of it. (and just to be safe, before anyone tries to say humans dont have magic, no, thats literally the entire premise of the setting is humans used magic to create the barrier, its just less present in humans than it is in monsters, who are made of the stuff)

and undertale yellows merciless route goes the route of deciding that undertales version already said everything there is to say on the meta aspects and the whole "you can so you need to" mindset, so instead it just calls it what it is: its a power trip. its mindless slaughter for the sake of getting stronger, whether its the player demanding a different ending (like deltarunes coldhearted route(im not calling it snowgrave, but this is entirely personal preference)), or again just wanting to see whatll happen. but either way its to feel strong.

and what happens at the end of that power trip? youve reached level 20. youve surpassed floweys control. you have as much power as you could ever hope to achieve. so, realistically:

whats stopping you from just killing asgore and leaving.

nothing. so you do.

and it leaves you wondering: was the power trip worth it. was the pain and suffering you caused worth it to get such a blatantly, not just non-canon, but ANTI-CANON ending? (EDIT: and i mean this in a positive way, its the same kind of self-reflection over your actions that undertale pulls, just communicated in a more indirect way)

and it being so anti-canon is part of why its such a haunting ending for me.

there really wasnt any other possible way for it to end. lv 20 itself and the way undertale and deltarune characterize that increase in power, in retrospect it feels obvious that it would be anti-canon in a prequel. monster souls are weaker than human souls, even at lv 1. so against a human whos lv 20, and who got there by constantly persisting and trying over and over to get past whatever obstacle is in front of them, and refuses to give up on their conquest, theres nothing anyone can do, and that alone rips the canon of undertale into shreds.

even SANS realizes theres nothing that can actually stop you, not even him, so the best he can hope for is that he puts up enough of a fight to make the player give up and/or reset, same reason his final attack is a turn that never ends.

and having to face that by helplessly watching clover blast an asgore-shaped hole in the story is TERRIFYING to me, in a way i really love the yellow team for doing. idk if its actually intentional or if im reading too much into it, but either way,

#undertale yellow #undertale yellow spoilers #elle rambles

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perlinnoisetexture · 8 months

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[ID: a digital drawing of dess holiday from deltarune depicted as a deer monster wearing a green shirt with white sleeves and baggy pants. she has short, dark brown hair and no antlers. she stands in a grassy clearing with a grove of trees beside it with her back turned to the viewer. she is in an active pose holding out a baseball bat which leaves a dark tear in the scene behind it. the sky is bright blue with fluffy clouds but a haze seems to emanate from the tear created by her bat. written at the top and bottom of the piece are the lyrics "i poked a hole / in a bright summer day" end ID]

my friend said that the new ferry song reminded him of dess and all at once i perceived and understood his vision. and so i had to draw this

#deltarune #dess holiday #safeutdr #eyestrain #(jic for noise texture)

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emoangel44 · 3 months

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What do you think Frisk's life was like before arriving in the underground? What do you think their life was like a few years after all that? What kind of person d'ya think they'd be?

this is a fairly hard question because for a long time frisk was effectively an enigma to me. i think frisk is one of the biggest writing weak points in the game and that their character suffers because toby only did the big reveal that theyre a separate person from you too late to do really anything with it, which is why hes focusing so hard on kris in deltarune.

however, i have been thinking more about them lately and trying to figure them out from the few canon details we have. here are some of the lines in the game that i think can give us a peak into frisks upbringing and personality:

these lines to me seem to imply frisk most likely grew up/lives in a neglectful environment where they dont feel loved or appreciated, whether in a home with parents or an orphanage or somewhere else. their caretakers are clearly absent enough that frisk managed to make it to mount ebott, for whatever reason it is they went. they do seem to at leastl partly want to go back home though, as they ask toriel when they can and you have the option to say they have somewhere else to go.

they seem very independent and used to doing things for themself. they prefer finding fun in things in their environment to entertain themself with (like playing in leaves or staring at mouse holes) and potentially arent actually used to having toys to play with. they dont like the idea of being trapped in the ruins with toriel and want to leave despite the promise of a loving home.

...however, they say this about asgore later. they seem to vastly prefer things like toriels homemade pie to making their own instant noodles. maybe theyd be willing to stay with someone on their own terms? you are given the option to stay with toriel or leave on your own at the end of the game. maybe frisk could be fine with either.

i also choose to believe the 'less grammatically correct' options in the role-play sequence are frisk. the only thing this really proves in that theyre kind of silly. but what undertale character isnt? things like them wiggling or copiously flirting or generally going along with shenanigans tell us they like having a good time like everyone else.

also, i dont have anything specific to say about the lines you get from running from a fight but i want to include them because theyre fun and some of the only 'probably frisk dialogue' we get that isnt just options.

as for post-mercy, i think the person everyone is talking to in the alarm clock dialogue is frisk. theyre just being told about events they werent there for, like the house party with alcohol they werent invited to for obvious reasons. i think both them having stayed with toriel or gone somewhere else are possible and there isnt strong evidence for either. theres even less evidence about whether they became the ambassador or not. maybe they werent there for some of the hangouts because they were busy with politics? i dont think toriel would let that happen but if any kid in the world could be a successful diplomat its absolutely frisk.

#undertale #frisk #analysis #raxz.ask

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haunted-80s-arcade-game · 5 months

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An Inconclusive and Slightly Unhinged Analysis of the True Lab Entries from Undertale: And Why They May Be Significant to Deltarune.

There is very little I can add about the True Lab entries that hasn’t already been pointed out by the fandom many many times before, so this analysis is more of a re-telling of EVERYTHING rather than a suggestion of brand new theories, however… I will be throwing in a few details I noticed while extensively combing through each lab entry that may have been missed by other people (but again, I highly doubt it. I haven’t searched through every thread on reddit or tumblr etc. so if I’m repeating anything that others have already mentioned, then I apologise. I’m mostly just writing this to get all of my thoughts in order before I explode).

Nevertheless, I’m going to order this in chronological order based on the most well known facts/speculations, down to the least well known, and the speculations that I myself have been recently thinking about.

So what are the True Lab Entries?

Basically, the True Lab is only accessible when carrying out the True Pacifist Route and reaching (almost) the end of the game. After defeating Omega Flowey, you can travel back to Hotland and enter Alphys’s Lab like normal. This time, however, you will find a note on the ground reading:

Hey,

Thanks for your help back there. You guys… Your support really means a lot to me. But… as difficult as it is to say this… You guys alone can’t magically make my own problems go away. I want to be a better person. I don’t want to be afraid anymore. And for that to happen, I have to be able to face my own mistakes. I’m going to start doing that now.

I want to be clear. This isn’t anyone else’s problem but mine. But if you don’t ever hear from me again… If you want to know “the truth”. Enter the door to the north of this note. You all at least to deserve to know what I did.

Upon entering the door to the north of the note (the door with a bathroom sign on it), you find yourself in an elevator, which almost immediately breaks down when you try to ride it, and sends you plummeting down into what is known as the True Lab.

The True Lab is basically just the creepy basement where Alphys does all of her more shady experiments involving determination, or at least, the place where she kept all the monsters who’ve had determination injected into them after death. Now, however, all of those monsters have turned into sticky, melted “Amalgamates” and are being hidden away from the rest of the Underground and in particular, their families, who regularly send letters to Alphys asking where their family members are, only to be completely ghosted by her. I’m going to safely assume that everyone reading this knows all of this and therefore, I don’t need to continue on with this very long-winded explanation.

The most intriguing part about the True Lab are the Lab Entries, which are basically updates about experiments being logged as “entries” that can be read as the player wanders around the True Lab. They are numbered, but this is both painfully significant and also potentially not significant at all, so bear with me here. I’ll get back to this.

Who writes the Entries?

This is where we start to get into the meat of the True Lab, and also down the rabbit hole of speculation, so pretty much nothing beyond this point can be considered canon, apart from a few select details.

At first glance, it seems that all of the entries are written by Alphys, and indeed, a lot of them certainly are. Entry Number 11 is certainly proof of this:

[“now that mettaton’s made it big, he never talks to me anymore… except to ask when i’m going to finish his body. but i’m afraid if i finish his body, he won’t need me anymore… then we’ll never be friends ever again… not to mention, every time i try to work on it, i just get really sweaty…”]

Obviously, we know that Alphys canonically created Mettaton’s body, so we know– at the very least– that this entry was written by Alphys. Because of this, people have assumed that she also wrote entries 9-13, and 18-21 (and maybe entry 16 and the second version of entry 17… again, I will get back to this). This is because the grammar and the capitalisation of letters at the beginning of the sentences (or rather, lack thereof) is the same throughout all of them (entry 16 is tricky to determine, because there are no sentences. It simply reads “no No NO NO NO NO NO”). Not only that but, again, a few have very Alphys-specific details in them, such as her spending time at the dump.

Now… this is where it gets Very, Very Interesting (for those who haven’t heard this shit thousands of times before because this is NOT new information, I promise). The rest of the entries are written COMPLETELY differently. I don’t just mean grammar-wise either (but it is noticeable that everything is properly capitalised, which tipped people off into thinking that these weren’t written by Alphys). What I haven’t really seen analysed before is how much the content of the entries don’t quite match up with Alphys’s timeline. Not to mention the fact that there are some very specific wording choices that caught my notice.

Entry number 4 and 8 are the ones that mostly confirm the theory that these weren’t written by Alphys, at least in my mind, by the simple fact that they mention Toriel (both directly and indirectly). Entry number 4 explains that the writer found the VHS tapes and we can glean from their wording that they watched them (why would they say that Asgore shouldn’t watch them if they didn’t know what was on them?) which means they heard audio footage of Toriel.

In entry number 8, they mention how they found a flower that appeared “just before the queen left”

which means that they are aware of Toriel, and may have even interacted with her, if they were around before she left as well. I say all this because, unless Alphys is lying at the end of the Pacifist Route, she doesn’t recognise Toriel.

(Yes it’s a screenshot from Jack’s playthrough, did you think I was gonna go through the full game for this one scene?)

None of the monsters really do, except for Sans, because Toriel left long before any of them were even born, judging by the timeline (which I’ll get to in a sec). Not only does Alphys not know the queen, but she also absolutely did not have anything to do with the first flower, and therefore did not create Flowey.

Think about the timeline for a second. Toriel left fairly soon after the original human’s death and after Asriel’s death, when Asgore started to take the souls of other human children. We can assume that, unless human children were literally dropping down every other week, it has been YEARS between the first human who fell and Frisk falling down. It could be anywhere from a few decades to potentially even centuries (I think I saw a timeline suggesting it had been about a hundred years since Chara fell?). Now, I’m sure many monsters probably have ridiculously long lifespans– clearly Toriel and Asgore do, but I honestly don’t buy the idea that Alphys was there when Asriel died and the queen left. I honestly don’t think she had anything to do with any of the experiments in the True Lab beyond the creation of the Amalgamates.

And, because of this, the reason why I’m sure she didn’t create Flowey is because Flowey had to be created fairly soon after Asriel died. We know that he was, because entry number 8 specifically mentions that the first flower was taken from the outside world, just after the queen left (“hang on,” I hear you say. “The entry says the flower appeared just after the queen left, not that it was taken. It could have been taken way later!” buttercups live for two months, next question). Now, this is where it gets a little tricky, because I think there are still some people who don’t quite understand how Flowey was created (believe me, I was one of them). The reason he has Asriel’s soul inside of him is because the dust from Asriel’s soul stuck to the flower and mixed with the determination that was injected into it. In entry number 10, which was written by Alphys, it’s mentioned that the seeds of the flowers “stick to you, and won’t let go” which is a nod towards how the dust stuck to the flower. This is why Flowey had to have been made very soon after Asriel’s death, which Alphys just was not there for (and yes, I know that isn’t technically confirmed canon, but I really don’t think the timelines match up in this case). Overall, I think it’s safe to assume that Alphys didn’t create Flowey.

However, going back to entry 10, we do know she worked on flowers. In fact, I think this is more solid evidence that Alphys didn’t specifically create Flowey, because the original experiment was on one, original flower. Whereas Alphys seems to work on multiple of them: “whatever. they’re a hassle to deal with anyway.”

I also don’t think that Alphys’s experiments on the flowers led anywhere, because the only reason Flowey turned into Flowey in the first place was because he had Asriel’s soul embedded inside him, not because he was a flower. The entries about Alphys’s experiments in the flowers seem to align with this, because there’s nothing in them that suggests the flowers ever did anything after being injected with determination.

“But wait!” Yes… I know. What about entry number 18?

Well… I don't think Alphys wrote this one either.

I know the lack of capitalisation suggests that she did, but I think this is a red herring. Think about it, does this read like Alphys? It’s very abrupt, very factual. There’s no concerned ramblings or anything, it is simply a grim statement that the flower has gone. Also, why does it only mention the flower? We know that Alphys has worked on more than one flower before, so the fact that she hasn’t clarified, or said a flower is suspicious, to say the least. It sounds more as if the person who wrote this is the person who experimented on the original flower (or at least was present during that experiment), aka Flowey.

Lastly, none of the other entries that Alphys presumably wrote ever mentions this flower again. True, neither do any of the entries after this one, but to be fair… this is the last entry that (possibly) isn’t written by Alphys.

So who did write the other entries?

Well, you can theorise all you want on this aspect, but personally I do believe it has to be W.D. Gaster and naturally that’s the most accepted theory. Obviously, we know for a fact that he was the Royal Scientist before Alphys, so it stands to reason that these are the notes from his experiments. This is where I’d like to actually talk more about the contents of these entries, though, and put together more of an idea of exactly what Gaster was working on, how it relates back to Alphys’s own experiments, and one theory that I made up while reading the entries (though I haven’t checked to see if anyone else has pointed this out before… perhaps I should have researched this more instead of just launching into my own ramblings).

First, Gaster specifically researched humans and their souls as part of his experimentation, including experimenting on the souls of the humans that fell into the underground. Again, this is why I don’t think Alphys had a hand in these experiments because– unless she’s still hiding a lot of things– she never mentions that her knowledge of humans really goes anywhere beyond what she’s seen in anime, let alone personal experience with the souls of the fallen humans.

This isn’t what interested me, though. The interesting thing, in my opinion, is where the experiments of Gaster and Alphys cross over each other: the monster souls that were injected with determination, an experiment which they both worked on. Here me out, but.. I don’t think these are the same monsters. I think Gaster experimented on dead monsters and their souls and the results were just as inconclusive and fatal as when Alphys tried to remake the experiment. However, I think the outcomes might have been slightly different.

I think Gaster specifically created the so-called Gaster Followers (and Goner kid). I think these are the monsters that he experimented on, and something went wrong, and now they don’t even exist anymore.

I’ll get more into my reasonings why in a sec, but I wanna go back to the timeline again. If Gaster experimented on Flowey around the same time as he experimented on the monsters, then these can’t be the same monsters that make up Alphys’s amalgamates. We’ve already ascertained that there could be a decades long gap between Gaster’s experiments and Alphys’s experiments, so how would Alphys still be getting regular, frantic letters from the same families of whom Gaster experimented on if their family members have been gone for decades? I’m not saying the families would have given up entirely (if they’re even still alive by this point) but the letters would certainly be fewer and farther between, surely. The letters Alphys is receiving are from families who have only just recently lost their family members, which doesn’t match up with the timeline if these are supposedly the same monsters from Gaster’s original experiments.

So, why do I think the grey characters are the original monsters that Gaster experimented on? Well, I’ll start with the most obvious connection first and talk about how Gaster specifically uses the word “goner” to describe the monsters he had been working on, which I think?? may have been the reason the fandom nicknamed the grey monster kid Goner Kid in the first place, but I could be wrong on that. I haven’t kept up with fanlore for a while. I think a lot of people assumed that Goner Kid was more of just a victim of timelines being reset over and over again, but I think it’s plausible that he could have been one of the monsters that Gaster experimented on before this happened, along with the Gaster Followers.

I can’t really back up this claim with evidence from the grey NPCs dialogue, except that they have the most information about Gaster, which would make sense if they actually interacted with him at some point or with his lab. I just think it’s never really talked about why these characters exist in the first place. Why have they been erased from existence when other monsters haven’t and why are they so connected to Gaster? If the experiment that Gaster was working on with the monster souls happened around the same time as the experiment that shattered him across time and space, it would make sense if the monsters had gotten caught up in this, along with everyone else in the lab at the time (Flowey perhaps? Judging by entry number 18, Flowey was still there when Gaster “fell into his creation and shattered” if we conclude that entry 17 is the moment that this experiment went wrong and, let’s be honest… There must be a reason that Flowey is able to control timelines. Almost like a side effect of something idk…). Unlike with Alphys’s experiments, we never actually see the outcome of Gaster’s. His entries talk about the monsters waking up and walking around, before we get entry 16 and 17 which cuts off his experiments for good before we’re able to find out if the results were the same as Alphys’s. Perhaps they would have been, had Gaster’s time fuckery experiment not got in the way and potentially wiped out both him and the monsters entirely. As a result, we get these grey NPCs who don’t look melted and fucked up like the amalgamates, but their existences have been destroyed.

Which brings me onto another point of interest. What is the timeline of the entries? And do Alphys’s entries even exist in the same timeline as Gaster’s?

My main reasoning for this is the fact that there are two entry 17s. One of which was definitely written by Gaster because… well, it has to be because I think if Wing Dings McGee wasn’t the guy who wrote entry 17 then the fandom will immediately lay down on the floor and die. The other, however, was written by Alphys and talks about the monsters she experimented on melting together:

monsters’ physical forms can’t handle determination like humans’ can. with too much determination, our bodies begin to break down. everyone’s melted together…

Now, yes… I know this entry doesn’t exist in the game and I know it’s technically a deleted entry that can’t be treated as canon. However, it does still exist in the game files. People can access it, and by this point, I think it’s common knowledge that Toby Fox does not just leave things behind on accident. Everything that can be accessed by the players is put there for a reason (unless we go with my other theory that Toby is a master of chaos who just likes to amuse himself, which… shouldn’t be ruled out tbh). How can there be two entry 17s and how come they overlap each other without ever mentioning the other. How can Gaster go on a one-man trek into a fucking black hole while Alphys is dealing with melted dogs at the same time? These entries did not happen together, and I definitely don’t think entries 9-13 happened before entries 14-16. I also think entry 4 is actually the first entry, because it mentions Gaster “researching humans to see if I can find any info about their souls” but the previous entries already talk about the “persistence” of human souls.

Also, I briefly mentioned how the voice of entry 16 couldn’t be determined, but what I find interesting is that it… technically has both Alphys and Gaster’s voice. I don’t know for sure, because this could absolutely just be me reaching into an abyss right now, but Toby Fox’s attention to detail has driven me completely insane so fuck it… the entry specifically reads “no No NO NO NO NO NO” in which the first no isn’t capitalised and yet the second one is.

It feels like their timelines are crossing, but never fully meeting, if that makes sense, and entry 16 seems to be the start of everything going wrong. It’s the last entry before (Gaster’s) entry 17 and after that we get the mysterious “the flower’s gone” entry which you know what? Hot take, but this entry has even more mystery surrounding it than entry 17 because WHO WROTE THIS ENTRY?? Gaster didn’t; by this point he’s already yeeted himself off into space, and Alphys didn’t because I already said that this isn’t the flower she was working on (and hey… before anyone says “ummm but she literally knows Flowey when Papyrus mentioned him, she freaked out about it”. Okay smartass just because she didn’t work on Flowey doesn’t mean she doesn’t know about him, Gaster could have kept notes lying around… give me a break I’m tired). Point is, I don’t think either of them wrote this entry.

And yeah okay I am about to bring up that old ass theory that Sans may have a connection to the True Lab Entries because he’s the only other character who doesn’t capitalise his letters (curse you MatPat for being a defining figure in my childhood) but like… guys. Remember I said that Gaster’s failed experiment may have had side effects on everyone in the lab, including causing Flowey to become aware of the timelines?? Yeah, how do we know that didn’t happen to Sans too? That experiment fucked everyone up, and Sans sure as hell knows everything that goes on in Undertale. There’s no way he isn’t connected to Gaster in some way or another, like there’s no argument about that atp we’ve been over this time and time again already.

(oh and is now the time to mention that Gaster’s entries were the ones to mention the blueprints he used to begin his experiments on soul power, which means those blueprints predated Gaster’s experiments and also there are blueprints in the shed beside Sans and Papyrus’s house? I know the common theory was that Sans and Papyrus came after Gaster, but like… what if they didn’t? And I don’t mean that they were there at the same time, because I know about the “Gaster is Sans and Papyrus’s father” theory, but I mean like… what if Sans actually predates Gaster? I know it sounds really tinfoil hat-esque but we honestly can’t rule anything out by this point).

Someone wrote entry 18 and I don’t think it was Alphys or Gaster.

Okay cool, so what does this have to do with Deltarune?

Let me answer that with a different question:

What if Deltarune is the creation that Gaster fell into?

There’s plenty of theories out there about Gaster being connected to Deltarune, possibly even more so than he is to Undertale, but like… what if that’s because he literally created the whole universe? He fell into this parallel universe that he wasn’t supposed to enter and it caused him to shatter, throwing off timeline hopping side effects that may have caught both Sans and Flowey. I mean, Sans does show up in Deltarune, and it’s odd that he’s the only character there that clearly hasn’t been established as a long-time resident. He doesn’t really know anyone there, he’s asserted his store into the street by rubbing out Grillby’s name and he winks at the player when he says he doesn’t know you. He’s like… the only character there who definitely still remembers Undertale (and like I don’t think we talk enough about the fact that Papyrus just straight up isn’t there. Like, yeah we assume he’s locked away in his house and that’s his parallel version to his Undertale self– a shut-in introvert, but the “distant trousle of bones” line might suggest that he actually just isn’t there at all. How distant is distant, Toby?).

Like, it’s obvious by this point that Gaster has some major control over the Deltaverse, and that entry 17 has a lot of parallels to the creation of dark worlds, but we don’t really ask how that parallel world existed in the first place. We know that parallel timelines exist, but Flowey said nothing about parallel worlds. Flowey doesn’t even seem to know about parallel worlds because if he did, I’m sure he wouldn’t have gotten bored so quickly and turned into a homicidal maniac if he had whole other WORLDS to explore. How did this world suddenly come into existence if not a creation by the one and only W.D. Gaster?

And while we’re on the subject of funky little guys who haunt the Deltarune narrative, it’s funny how Dess has disappeared from the world, rather than explicitly died. There’s already a theory floating around that Dess is somehow connected to Gaster in the same way that Spampton and Jevil may be but again her circumstances feel… different somehow. Not only that but unlike Spamton and Jevil, Dess is potentially present in Undertale if we take the Undertale alarm clock dialogues from 2017 as anything to go by, wherein Sans mentions “that antlered girl and her big sis” (it may also be notable that it’s Sans who seems to know Dess and Noelle but… I’m too tired to go much further on this theory right now).

So, I think what I’m saying is, Dess is almost definitely incredibly significant, and is potentially linked to Gaster in more ways than we first thought, although again… we probably all did think this and I’m just late to the party (if you can believe it, I’ve been in the Undertale fandom since the game came out, but I never frequented Reddit or Tumblr at the height of the fandom so… I’m definitely repeating a lot of old stuff here).

Basically, this whole analysis is just a recap of everything we know about the Lab Entries, while also potentially throwing out a few tidbits that may interest Deltarune theorists far better than I could ever be.

Also the song Don’t Forget at the end of chapter 1? That’s 100% Dess and I take no other suggestions on that. “When the light is running low and the shadows start to grow” Hey that sounds fucking familiar *said with the most deranged smile on my face*

#undertale #undertale theory #undertale thoughts #undertale meta #undertale meta analysis #deltarune #deltarune theory #deltarune meta #wd gaster #dess holiday #sans #sans undertale #alphys

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aspisera · 7 months

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Aspisera's Masterpost of the Deltarune Escapism Theory Character Connections!

Okay so before I start this, I am NOT good at writing.

This is my take on the connections in the Escapism Theory for Deltarune. I’m going to be naming off points on a descending scale with how outlandish the connection to characters are.

It will descend like this:

Susie

Kris

Noelle

Berdly

(thank you @stunfiskz for humoring my take on Noelle when I first thought of it)

Here we go:

Susie - Jevil and King

To me (and others, I’m sure) King and Jevil have strong connections to Susie. King is basically how Susie confronts her abandonment issues.

Instead of crying about it, she gets angry and lashes out. In the fight she has with Lancer, she goes on the offensive instantly. Choosing to get aggressive about it because she’s tired of people leaving her behind; loyalty means a lot to her. King is the same way because of the Lightner’s abandoning his kingdom. He grows jaded and coarse while developing a vendetta. He does everything in his power to make the Lighteners leave, to trap them, or to kill them so they don’t cause more issues.

With Jevil it’s a bit different. Jevil is more related to Susie’s nihilism and cynicism (particularly being concerned with her own interest in Chapter 1). Susie and Jevil both subscribe to “Our actions hold no value so what’s the point in conformity?” as they both show how they can care less about the safety of others or the larger problem at hand (e.g. The Roaring). Towards the end of Chapter 1, we can see Susie start to care about other people a bit more. Thanking Kris and becoming their friend. She also warms up to Ralsei a bit. And when you defeat Jevil in both endings, he accepts your kinship and helps you in battle (Either as Jevilstail (Armor) or Devilsknife (Weapon)). Just like how Susie went into your part (with Lancer) after you defeated them.

Kris - Spamton and Lancer

I know what you’re thinking “What do you mean Lancer?” but stick with me, I promise.

Kris and Spamton may seem like a fairly obvious comparison… So why is it down here? Some may not have looked deep enough. It’s not just about puppets on strings, no, it’s about depression.

From the beginning, we can tell Kris has low motivation, sleeps in, and ignores school responsibilities, and it’s probably because Kris is depressed. Their brother is away, they feel like an outcast, they’re being bullied in school by Susie (in the beginning), and their parent’s have a broken marriage (which doesn’t help). Spamton reflects this: Mike not returning the calls, being removed as an Addison and being laughed at because of his failures, and him being broken himself.

Both him and Kris want to change and go back to how things were but they’re both grasping at straws. Nothing seems to be working, especially for Spamton. To Kris, Spamton is what they could have been if the Soul didn’t step in. Kris relates to Spamton on such a high emotional level that they have a mental breakdown after the fight with NEO. It makes them reflect on what they have now and how they might’ve turned out. Same with how Spamton appreciated Mike being there for him… until he wasn’t.

Lancer and Kris are a bit harder to explain and also ties in with Noelle’s comparisons. Lancer is shown as a goofball, a silly guy, a child. Kris is a notorious prankster and is basically the town weirdo. They both have their victim of choice for most of their jokes and have obsessions with things people consider unorthodox (digging holes and knives). But Kris and Lancer are also connected in the sense that Kris is afraid of getting close to people just like how Lancer is. Lancer is scared of his dad finding out but Kris is worried about driving people away. Kris most definitely has a history of making people not like them and so does Lancer. Lancer admits himself that none of the basic enemies really listen to him and only do so because he’s the King’s son.

Noelle - Queen (obvs) and Rouxls Kaard

Told you it would tie in. Queen isn’t hard to understand when relating her to Noelle. Queen uses Noelle and likes her because she can manipulate her well as Noelle is a pushover and a people-pleaser. And, of course, that ties in with how Queen is like Noelle’s Mom. Always pushing her to do her best in school so she can keep up the image of their family. She can’t have Noelle flunking like she did on that spelling bee.

Rouxls Kaard is fun to explain. Both Noelle and Kaard are looking for a greater purpose as they both feel like they have more meaning to themselves other than doing good in school or making puzzles. Noelle wants to do what she wants but feels pressured by her mom to keep going. Kaard wants to do his own thing, too. Making puzzles isn’t fun for him but he keeps doing it because he feels like he needs to. Though there’s greater purpose in sticking with Kris and Lancer. Kris can provide a journey and a possibility at finding something that means more than academics. Taking care of Lancer gives Kaard a HUGE purpose. He plays around with the idea of being a second father to Lancer but is scared of how to approach it, just like how Noelle is stuck thinking the trip to the Darkworld is all a dream.

Berdly - just Swatch (for now)

Berdly’s is gonna be short and sweet. I think Swatch is who Berdly wants to be. Berdly masks himself as acting smart, charming, and tough all at the same time. Swatch is pretty much all of those things. Swatch is smart but you don’t get upset because they don’t come off as condescending, not to mention him being fuckin’ BUILT.

That’s pretty much it. I doubt this thing is comprehensible in a literary sense but I don’t write often so I hope all of my points get across nonetheless. I decided to make this post to finally tie into Stunfiskz’s drawing of Noelle and Rouxls Kaard’s sprites making the same faces and not let people just sit in the dark.

#utdr #deltarune #deltarune theory

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not-ishmael · 1 year

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A (not so) Brief Study Into the Nature of Deltarune

TL;DR:

For some time I've been quite intrigued by the appearance of some very particular leitmotifs that Undertale's and Deltarune's OSTs have in common. This took me down a rabbit hole that ended with the realization that it's quite possible that DR Sans and UT Sans are one in the same, and the Reset Theory on Deltarune is probably right.

This forces me to believe that Deltarune is a prequel from the perspective of the characters, and a spiritual sequel from the perspective of the Soul/Player.

The Pre-Sequel Theory

First and foremost, pardon my english. I'm quite proud of my english skills, but it's not my first language and sometimes I mess up.

This is a LONG post. There's a lot -a LOT- of text and no images at all to ease the reading. I advice jumping into it only if you don't have anything better to do for a bit. The PDF I firstly wrote this on is 6 and a half pages long.

Index:

Motivations.

Clues in Undertale.

Clues in Deltarune.

The Delta Rune.

Conclusions.

Problems with this theory.

Blood (This part is skippable).

Discussion of the problems.

1 Motivations:

I've always been fascinated by soundtracks and ever since Undertale came up, its soundtrack wasn't an exception.

More recently I've been a bit more focused on the leitmotifs that Toby Fox uses in both game's soundtracks and, as many people have found, they share a lot of common themes. For many of them it's easy to understand why (for instance, for common character's themes, like Sans') but for some others it's not so much.

Having a more or less clear relationship between the games through the music, I tried to study the nature of this relationship, and what elements outside the music can be used as proof of this connection. This got me to Sans ,because of course it did.

Trying to justify this took me down the rabbit hole that theory crafting around Sans has always been, and the musical side of my reasoning ended up being a small part of the whole thing. Regardless I'm quite happy with the result, albeit it's not free of problems that I'll address and discuss at the end.

I'd like to also thank @determinators, who's incredible character analysis on Chara inspired me to write this whole thing.

With that out of the way, let's begin by talking about small details that Undertale gives us and hints to it being connected to Deltarune in some way:

2 Clues in Undertale:

There’s a lot of non-music related hints that point towards a possible connection between both games in Undertale. I tried to make a small summarize of all the most important signs I’ve found.

To begin with, there are a couple of small details that show that Sans Undertale seems to have quite the interesting backstory, these being:

Both him and Papyrus appeared one day in Snowdin, seemenly out of nowhere.

In Sans’ lab there’s a broken machine and a poorly drawn picture of 3 people we don’t recognize with ”don’t forget” written on it.

Sans insists a lot about about how he gave up trying to go back (somewhere, sometime, or both).

On the other hand there’s the famous Gaster’s Entry 17, that could imply some knowledge of the Dark Fountains by the former Royal Scientist. Gaster related as well, there’s Clam Girl, who mentions a monster named Suzy. Soon before the release of Deltarune, in the Switch version of the game, Clam Girl would turn grey and says that the time to meet this Suzy ”... is fast approaching”, before disappearing with the sound Mystery Man makes when disappearing himself. Although Suzy is not written the same way as Susie, there’s no reason to believe that Clam Girl is not talking about Deltarune’s Susie. This not only hints to Undertale and Deltarune being connected, but to Gaster being behind the whole connection, since Clam Girls turns into a goner sprite and disappears the same way Mystery Man does. I know Mystery Man is not confirmed to be Gaster, but it’s definitely related to him in someway.

There must be something going on with Papyrus as well, since he’s Sans’ brother and comes to Snowdin with him, but in Undertale he doesn’t seem to know as much as Sans knows. This could mean, since Papyrus doesn’t bleed, that Undertale Papyrus and Undertale Sans are not the same kind of being, and don't share a past.

2.1 Sans’ lines during combat:

During the fight against Sans, nearing the end of the Genocide Route, we get some clues about his backstory within his lines of dialogue. He begins, after the Player’s first attack, by saying:

our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting...until suddenly, everything ends. heh heh heh... that's your fault, isn't it?

We don’t know who is he working with, but it seems they know very well about the power to control the timeline, since they were monitoring it.

Sans continues with:

knowing that one day, without any warning... it's all going to be reset.

look. i gave up trying to go back a long time ago. and getting to the sur-ace doesn't really appeal anymore, either. cause even if we do...we'll just end up right back here, without any memory of it, right?

to be blunt...it makes it kind of hard to give it my all.

Here we get a bit more information. Sans is -understandably- depressed about the whole reset situation, but mentions ”going back” somewhere. We know it’s not somewhen since he doesn’t remember earlier timelines -besides the occasional déjà vu- and it’s not the Surface because he mentions it right after that line. So, where else would Sans be trying to go back to? It can’t be anywhere in the Undertale world, since he can move freely through the Underground - even through teleportation- and he specifically states that it’s not the Surface. Thus it can only mean somewhere outside the Undertale world.

A bit after that he continues with:

all i know is... seeing what comes next... i can't afford not to care anymore.

What does he mean by ”seeing what comes next”? He doesn’t know the future, nor what the Player did in other timelines. So, what is he seeing? I have no clue for what he could be referring too, but I do think that the answer lies within Deltarune’s story. We’ll have to wait for future chapters to know.

2.2 Sans’ secret lab:

After Sans gives the Silver Key -which appears to be a reference to a book about timetravel by H.P. Lovecraft- to the Player, we can access the Secret Lab hidden underneath his house. Inside of it we find:

A covered up broken machine.

Blueprints for a machine written in un- readable symbols.

A badge.

A photo album with:

A picture of Sans, happy, with other people the Player doesn’t recognize.

If the Player already fought Asriel: A second picture appears, showing Sans, Frisk and their friends.

After the v1.001 patch of the game, if the Player has talked to Clam Girl and knows of Suzy, from the back of the photo album sticks out a poorly drawn picture of three smiling people with the words ”Don’t Forget” written on it.

The first three items, although interesting, don’t give us much to work with. The machine is covered up and the blueprints are unreadable. The badge could become another huge hint in the future, if during Deltarune’s festival Sans happens to win a badge for winning at something, but this is purely speculation so I won’t be taking it into account.

The pictures and the drawing, on the contrary, give us much more information. Let's discuss them a bit more in depth:

2.2.1 The photo album:

By the time the Player gets the Silver Key, possibly after the battle with Asriel, they (and Frisk) have met every main character in Undertale’s story. Thus, the people in the first picture, who neither the Player nor Frisk recognize, can’t be anyone we know. They could be people from other places in the Underground Frisk hasn’t met -although from a storytelling perspective this doesn’t make much sense- or they could be from the Deltarune world -which makes a lot more sense storywise-.

Furthermore, there’s the poorly drawn picture. Since this picture only appears after talking to Clam Girl, a character heavily tied to Deltarune -specifically to one Deltarune Character-, and it has the words ”Don’t forget” -words that don't mean anything special in Undertale, but are extremely important an present in Deltarune from the very beginning- written on it, it’s safe to assume that the three poorly drawn characters are a trio from Deltarune. Due to Frisk not recognizing them, they have to be characters that only appear on Deltarune. What trio of characters do we know from Deltarune that fit these characteristics? I’m fairly sure Kris and Susie are two of the three, but the third is a bit more complicated. My first suspect was that it was Ralsei, but since he’s a darkner and we don’t know if darkners will be able to get to the Light world somehow, nor if Sans will end up in a Dark world; I’m more inclined to leave that third character’s identity up for debate. My other candidate is Noelle, since Berdly dies in the Snowgrave route of Chapter 2 -and Toby Fox likes to keep all possible endings as canon- and we don’t know any other important lightner that doesn’t appear in Undertale as well.

3 Clues in Deltarune:

Since we have just 2 chapters -out of Toby knows how many-, not many hints to Undertale appear in the second game. Still, much can be said from the leitmotifs that can be heard in the game’s soundtrack, which was the main motivation for this analysis.

3.1 A brief introduction to leitmotifs:

*This part is skippable if you know what a leitmotif is*

To those who don’t know, a leitmotif is a small piece of melody that appears many times in a composition, and is associated to someone, somewhere or an idea. Examples of this are the main themes of characters: a recognizable simple melody that is associated to a specific someone-For instance, the melody in Nyeh Heh Heh!, which would be Papyrus’ leitmotif-.

Soundtracks are rigged with leitmotifs, and neither Undertale’s nor Deltarune’s soundtracks are an exception. Since each one is associated to a specific character, place or idea, the use of the same ones in both games is something to keep in mind.

3.2 Leitmotifs that appear in both games:

The first song that plays inside the world of Deltarune, in Chapter 1, is Beginning, which has 2 leitmotifs in it: Once upon a time -from Undertale-, and Don’t Forget, -from Deltarune-. This second leitmotif appears in several other songs in Chapter 1, and in some of Chapter 2.

The song that plays in the menu after you finish Chapter 1 is called Before the Story, which has the exact same melody as in Once upon a time. This leitmotif is one of the most -if not he most- used in Undertale’s soundtrack. For me, it’s kind of the ”Undertale theme”, for how much it appears in the soundtrack of the game -same as Don't Forget would be Deltarune's theme-.

There are some other Undertale leitmotifs in Deltarune’s OST that I won’t be taking into consideration. These are the character’s leitmotifs, like Sans’, and other that represent important emotions like determination, despair and hope-These leitmotifs are a bit difficult to recognize if you’re not deep into the music side of the games. Determination can be heard, among others, in Undertale’s Determination and Deltarune’s Rude Buster; Despair corresponds to the melody in Undertale’s Burn in Despair, and appears in Your Best Nightmare, Vs. Susie and at Queen’s basement, right before the Spamton NEO fight; and Hope is sometimes called ”Snowdin’s theme”, which appears in Undertale’s Snowdin Town and Hopes and Dreams -thus why I prefer to call it Hope’s leitmotif- and in Deltarune’s A Town Called Hometown-. These leitmotifs being in both games is to be expected, since they either represent common characters or common emotions to both games, so they're not really relevant to the theory.

Going back to the theory, the use of ”Don’t Forget” as a title for the most present leitmotif in Deltarune is a bit on the nose, taking into account the poorly drawn picture in Sans’ Secret Lab. The soundtrack acts as a constant reminder to not forget -pun intended- that drawing. But this isn’t the only insinuation Toby’s left in the game’s music. There’s another, much obscurer clue, it being the name of the song Before the Story. Since it plays in the menu only after you play Chapter 1, it can’t be referring to ”before the story” of Deltarune, since that story has already begun. So, what if the Story is Undertale’s? If so, since it uses the most important leitmotif of Undertale in a song called ”Before the Story”, this would imply that Deltarune’s story happens before Undertale.

3.3 Non-musical clues:

How the Player interacts with the world seems to also indicate a relationship between games. Specifically those lines that point to the Player knowing characters -or things about characters- that Kris doesn’t know yet. This in and of itself is not enough to prove that the games are a direct sequel and prequel of each other but, in combination with everything else already discussed it does add to that idea.

4 The Delta Rune:

Both the appearance of the Delta Rune in both games and its name are big indicators of this connection between games. Even though in Undertale it’s not known what its original meaning was, there’s a prophecy that sounds remarkably alike to the Delta Rune Legend from Deltarune. In Undertale there are two interpretations: either the Angel will murder all monsters, or free them all from the Underground. Additionally, in Deltarune, the Legend Ralsei tells us says that the Angel is to be defeated by three heroes: two lightners -a human and a monster- and a darkner.

Since the Delta Rune is older than written history in Undertale and it’s original meaning was lost to time, that one of the 2 interpretations for this symbol is so close to the Legend Ralsei gives us, with an evil Angel instead of a benevolent one, could mean that, originally, both Runes had the same meaning behind.

5 Conclusions:

With all this in mind, I’m quite sure now that at the end of Deltarune Sans will end up being stuck in Undertale’s world, possibly using the machine he keeps covered up in his lab. Since Papyrus doesn’t seem to be much different to any other monster in the Underground I don’t think he comes from Deltarune’s world, so I fear a tragic end for the Papyrus we’re yet to meet.

This ending would make sense of the whole ”Your choices don’t matter” thing. The Snowgrave route seemed to contradict this statement but, if just Sans is going to Undertale, whatever you do on Deltarune’s Universe won’t matter to Sans’ end. Undertale’s story is already written and the end we got will remain untouched, as Toby said. This also implies that our actions don't matter to Deltarune’s world end too. This, plus the possible death of Papyrus, points to a violent end of the game. Being blunt: I think the Roaring is inevitable.

But if Deltarune is a prequel, how is it that the Player recognizes the characters that both games have in common and it’s advised that the game is played after Undertale? I believe the game is a prequel from Sans’ perspective, and a spiritual sequel from the Player’s. The Player, being the meta-being that it is in the games, doesn’t need to abide by the same temporal rules the characters are forced to follow. Thus there's no contradiction in Deltarune being a prequel to Undertale.

6 Problems with this theory:

To prove this theory we need for Papyrus to die and the Roaring to happen. It’s a grim condition, perhaps too much so that I don’t see Toby having a dream about it and deciding to dedicate the next +10 years of his life to make a game about it; or perhaps it's just the kind of dramatic and emotive ending that would motivate someone to do exactly just that.

UT Papyrus seems to not know anything about his brother’s possible past in another world, and acts as if they had been together since forever. They both appeared one day in Snowdin and his past seems as mysterious as Sans’, but they can’t be directly related since Papyrus doesn’t bleed.

I don’t know how will Sans get to Undertale’s world (my guess is Gaster, but he’s a bit of an easy-way-out in theory crafting).

Naming a song doesn’t need to be a very thought out process, even if Toby Fox has a tendency to be very attentive to details. The name of Before the story could just be a synonym to "Main menu".

Grillby’s. Sans’ convenience store, ’Sans, appears to have the same façade as Grillby’s in Undertale, with the name of Grillby rubbed off. This small detail is a possible proof against the sequel thesis, albeit it could just mean that Hometown had a Grillby’s before Sans’ convenience store and it closed down for some unknown reason.

It’s debated whether monsters from Deltarune have magic or not. There are some indications that they do have magical powers, but for some reason seem to have forgotten about them and it’s been left as an obscure thing very little people know about. Anyhow, Sans does have -very powerful- magic powers in Undertale, so this uncertainty could disprove the whole theory.

7 Blood.

*This entire part is skippable, after reading the TL;DR*

TL;DR: As always, blood seems to be the biggest issue around Sans’ theories. To summarize, unless we get undeniable proof that DR monsters do bleed in some way before turning into dust, Sans bleeding could be a huge weak point for this theory.

Before I finish this post, I'd like to address one of the biggest conundrums in Undertale: Sans' blood. Throughout the post I've gone with the assumption that Sans can bleed without proving it in anyway.

It’s fair to say that Sans does bleed in Undertale before turning into dust outside the screen, and he’s the only Undertale monster that does. We know he bleeds because he does it from the mouth as well, far from where the Player cuts him, which would only happen with regular bleeding around a digestive system rather than with ketchup stored in his rib cage. But, is there any indication that Deltarune monsters bleed?

This is highly debatable, but there are some unused sprites that show Susie bleeding. Even though they are unused, why would Toby Fox make them if the thought of bleeding monsters wasn’t in his mind? There’s a monster kid - not the Monster Kid- that asks Kris if it hurts to be made of blood, which implies that monsters are not; but the bleeding Susie sprite is a huge indicative that Toby had this idea of monsters bleeding in Deltarune.

Regarding the ”everybody bleeds” quote, in the Japanese version of the game Susie doesn’t mention blood but ”wounds”, using a word in no way related to blood or bloody wounds. Because of this, the quote is probably just a figure of speech. It’s a bit odd that a monster would use a figure of speech that mentions blood, but it’s probably because the script is written by a human, for humans to read; or that she comes from a human community, as some have hypothesised.

7.1 Berdly’s death:

Anyhow, monsters in Deltarune do seem to turn into dust after they die. Gerson, for instance, had his dust buried with his hammer, following a similar funeral ritual to that of Undertale. But Berdly, who is presumably dead after Chapter 2 if the Snowgrave route was taken, didn’t. At least, not for a long time, from after he died until Kris, Susie and Noelle leave the Librarby.

The toy in the hospital’s waiting room appears to confirm to Berdly’s death, since one of the blue beads breaks off after Snowgrave -this means there's more than 1 blue bead, possibly 2: one for Berdly and one for Kris-. But can we be certain that this means death? We do know this toy symbolizes the state of the game: the beads’ colours are the same as the main characters’, it’s said that they each ”march along their set paths", reminding us that our actions don't matter, and in the end of Chapter 2 - if nobody died- it says that the beads "march on". Berdly’s coloured bead being broken and off the rail after Snowgrave, and him appearing to ”not be awake” in the Light world indicate the end of the road for that character. It’s safe to assume that this detail does confirm that he dies after Snowgrave. But if so, how is it that his body didn’t turn immediately into dust?

In the Neutral route, Berdly’s arm gets burned and, after the Dark Fountain gets sealed, his arm doesn’t seem to respond. It’s not burned, just not moving. From this we can assume that injuries in the Dark world have physical manifestations in the Light world. This explains why Berdly is just dead and not frozen after Snowgrave. But it also could mean that he’s not completely dead, but fallen down, a comatose fatal state. This could mean that the broken bead does means certain death, just not right away. If so, then there’s nothing pointing to Deltarune monsters being any different to Undertale’s in nature, other than their apparent lack of magic powers, and this whole theory crumbles to dust -pun intended-.

As always, blood seems to be the biggest issue around Sans’ theories. So, to summarize, unless we get undeniable proof that monsters bleed in some way before turning into dust, this will keep on being a huge weak point in this theory.

8 Discussion of the problems:

Regardless of these problems, including the blood one, I still believe that this theory holds. There’s enough evidence to back up the thesis. Even if monsters don’t bleed in Deltarune, it’d make perfect sense for Sans UT to be from this world and not Undertale’s.

Nevertheless, if the blood problem isn’t explained through Deltarune, new theories will have to arise to explain why Sans is so different from any other monster.

Furthermore, if bleeding is not something Deltarune monsters do, then it’s possible that UT Papyrus is the same as DR Papyrus, like Sans, since the main reason for that distinction was that Papyrus didn’t bleed. This would imply an ending a bit less grim for the skeleton duo, although the inevitability of the Roaring still looks unavoidable to maintain the whole theme of the game: ”Your choices don’t matter ”

#Undertale #Undertale Theory #Deltarune #Deltarune Theory #Sans #Papyrus #Susie #Ralsei #noelle holiday #kris dreemurr #Toby Fox #This took me a lot longer than it should have #I might have a slight problem with these games #deltarune chapter 1 #deltarune chapter 2 #delta rune #gaster

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voidshrub · 4 months

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“Nobody can see us up here.”

Wao,, ANOTHER kiss Bush how could you,,, and on Valentine’s nontheless,,., on th ferris,,, ough,

Again, Click (pink) belongs to brightgoat and Link (green) belogs to e40536! (I am too anxious to tag them this time but uhm if you see this uhhh hi I admire you greatly OK BYE)

#deltarune #addisons #pink addison #green addison #You have no idea how much I love this style #No lineart just. blocky #I made them kiss again isnt that cool #i forgor to make them blush but whatever #bush art #ok back to the moss hole bye bye

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alcedeerie · 1 month

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My new Crossover Crack Theory/AU idea:

Kris Dreemurr from Deltarune is the same person as the Flower Kid from Smile For Me.

first of all, they have two major overlapping qualities:

at least one parent is said to be a florist

they don’t talk (or we don’t ever see them do so)

second of all, I could see Kris signing up for the Habitat based on a weird website they found. both the ideas of them signing up For The Lolz or to legitimately work on their mental health seem like things they would do.

the “puppetry” and “flower” motifs in Smile For Me also seem very Kris-like.

its also funny if kris just goes back home exhausted after the events of Smile For Me like “oh my god please do not make me a protagonist again. i do not want to deal with more weird creepy puppets and overdramatic theatrical weirdos. no more TEETH. i am DONE with protagonisting.” and then they get thrown into being a protagonist again in anywhere from a month to a year’s time and have to deal with Jevil and Spamton.

i have identified a few holes in this theory, but I am filling them in with metaphorical duct tape, such as:

Q: Why does everyone seem to be human? Why aren’t there any monsters? A: Just like how Kris lives in a mostly-monster neighborhood, the Habitat is in a mostly-human neighborhood. It’s close but not too close, which explains how a lot of the Habiticians have seen or interacted with Flower Kid (Kris) but never got their name.

Q: How is Trencil a vampire who’s lived for centuries? A: He’s a Boss Monster, and so is Nat. They like blending in as human because it means nobody asks any questions (and maybe because he’s a little bit apprehensive).

Q: Why is Trevor like that if monsters existing is common knowledge? A: His parents are monster deniers (don’t think monsters are real), which is basically Deltarune’s equivalent of being a flat earther. He thinks they’re wrong, but he doesn’t have many friends to tell him that his parents are not the default view on things, so he tries to prove it in the conspiratorial way that he’s used to. It’s like someone trying to prove the earth is round as though it’s part of some mysterious conspiracy no one ever discovered beforehand. Also he’s kind of a furry and just really wants to believe monsters exist.

Q: Why are the Smile For Me humans red and purple and blue and green if they’re in the same universe as Deltarune? A: There’s no confirmation they’re NOT like that in Deltarune! we don’t see any humans beyond Kris; they have the skin tone of mango puree, they turn blue in the Dark World, and nobody comments on it. it’s completely within reason for humans to just Be Like That.

i’ll be here all day if anyone has any questions.

#utdr #deltarune #kris dreemurr #deltarune au #smile for me #s4m #smile for me game #smile for me flower kid #smile for me au

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canaryy15 · 29 days

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It’s you!

It’s.. You?

It’s only you.

After everything, it’s still you.

i own barak :3 all art is done by me!

Notes:

A few weeks ago, I saw a friend (you’re here now hahah @feliden I SEE YOU) do this trend with the Undertale mirror interactions, showcasing their ages. In their case they only did three, the normal ones for Undertale, but I also added the “It’s Only You” from Deltarune.

As for the designs, I definitely wanted to show his changes from being born in Viper’s Veil, a cut throat place where the strong eliminate weak, and to joining MistClan under the wing of Smokethistle (@/havochellion ‘s character on discord, here’s their toyhouse as well: https://toyhou.se/Havoc_Hellion *also* @havochellion here, i’ve found your tumblr you FIEND /t).

The first one is when he’s from 2-3 moons old, showing his uncertainty of his home in Viper’s Veil. He doesn’t *like* killing, one of the main points of V.V., but it’s all he’s grown up with, he doesn’t know better. The uncertainty is whether it’s normal to be a killer, or if it’s psychotic. One point of V.V. cat’s designs are a little viper symbol in-graved somewhere in their body, his being on his left back thigh.

The second one is when he joined MistClan, becoming an apprentice and being at 6 moons. Barak is more tense and on edge, still adjusting to his highly different surroundings. When he first started training with Smokethistle, he thought every tiny mistake would mean punishment, which obviously was not the case. He had to adjust, learn that V.V. *was* psychotic. We see now that he has slashed out the viper mark, as he had kept it when he joined around 4 moons, but out shame clawed out the snake.

The third is in my early roleplay stages with him, and around 13-14 moons when he was made a warrior. He has adjusted more, but still cautious of cats he hasn’t met or socialized with, his brain quickly coming up with an analyzation at the sight. He also thought of a great idea, getting a leaf, cutting out the inside, and poking a hole in his ear and stringing it through to make an earring, or as he called it, a leafring. Around now he got to know Buttereyes (owned by @/puzzle5063 on discord), an easy tempered cat but more teasing when you get to know him. Their first interaction… wasn’t the *best*, as Buttereyes actually tore Barak’s left ear. As well, he had an interaction with his sister, Carmen (also owned by havoc :>) where he accidentally burned his shoulder, but it heals and closes up after a moon or two. Around now as well Smokethistle went missing, and a cat named Oleandertuft (owned by @/feliden. on discord, here’s their th: https://toyhou.se/Feliden_) was taking their place as a temporary deputy, which pissed Barak off quite a bit.

The last one is his current one, as… A lot happened in that turn of events. Barak had met some more cats who left V.V., becoming friends with them but also getting news about a Culling of Shadows, a Viper’s Veil event where the strong, mainly Enforcers, Second in Command, and the Leader, eliminate the weak. He remembered that kitsch are made apprentices at 3 moons, and some could be like him, killed off helplessly, so he wanted to help. Not long before that, Buttereyes insisted on coming with, in which he confessed to Barak that he loved him, and he did too. They both made their way to the camp, Barak being hit with a wave of bad memories and nostalgia, and spotting an enforcer attacking two kits and he tackled them, not winning but quickly whisking the two kits to a secret place he remembered from his time there. One had been bit on the throat, which he actually used his leaf earring as a tourniquet which he now likes to say, “Hey, that leafring saved a life!” He left them there and said he’d come back, but when he left was quickly tackled by the enforcer again, getting the side of his head bashed into a rock, and a rock stabbed in his back before one of his friends who had left V.V. helped him out, and he quickly retrieved the kits and left, homing them both in MistClan.

A bit of a time skip later after healing, Smokethistle returned along with a kit named Benjamin (also owned by feliden!), and he admitted snickered when Oleandertuft was “demoted”. Another time skip, he had an instinct Viper Veil was coming, sooner or later. BerryClan had been their (V.V’s) main target, but they already raided them, there’d be nothing left if they did it again. And all the other Clans had had something significant happen to them, MistClan was the strongest out of them and a threat. And, his instinct ended up correct. Viper’s Veil raided their camp, but as Snakestar (@/songfawn on discord, th: https://toyhou.se/Fawnsong annnd here on tumblr @songfawn ) already expected it they had been prepared, hiding the herbs, fresh-kill, and other resources where only her, Smokethistle, and Silentstorm (@/cloverhfjone on discord), the medicine cat, knew where. He had got into a fight where he had admittedly dropped a rock on their head and after getting a bad gash down his side (on the other side, not seen in image) ended up killing them easily, which was a chill down his spine. He found Benjamin cowering by the sidelines, and he quickly told the kit to go hide somewhere on the territory, but as the kit left, Oleandertuft and Swiftfur (also feliden’s) followed him… He didn’t have time to worry, so he ran to where Smokethistle had been after hearing V.V. was retreating, but he only found devastation. Smokethistle’s sister, Fangs (also havoc’s), was dead. He tried to comfort his mentor, and word for word said, “but… I’ll be right here, dad. I’m not going anywhere.”

After that travesty, he realized something: Benjamin was missing. He searched every corner of the territory, every border, and while he was at the MeadowClan border, started to piece it together. Oleandertuft had followed Benjamin, and Swiftfur had as well not long after. Oleandertuft had returned, but the other two had not. And he recalled a conversation the two had at The Moon Rocks, Benji saying he had saw Oleandertuft with someone he couldn’t recognize. It was too coincidental. And if Swiftfur followed and hadn’t returned… He kept going, coming to the CaveClan border untill he found a bloody fox trap. He scented it, MistClan, no trace of Stray, what Benjamin had been. He hadn’t been in MistClan long, so there would’ve been some trace if it was him. So maybe Swiftfur got stuck in it? The fox trap *had* to be staged, twolegs weren’t anywhere near here. While walking, his paw hit something. He looked down to see a dead cat. A literal corpse. He didn’t recognize them, and they had so much gunk in their fur, they’d be indescribable. It had to be Oleandertuft’s Companion that Benji saw. But none of this told him where he was. He had given up on looking, but when he returned, Oleandertuft started *pestering* him, and usually with Oleandertuft he had been snarky and retorting back with a sly grin, but now he was just pissed off that this cat had the audacity to try and kill what was essentially his brother, and go on like nothing happened.

Another skip later, Oleandertuft comes running into camp demanding for Snakestar, and is followed by Swiftfur carrying Benjamin, limp in her jaws where Oleandertuft starts framing Swiftfur. Barak was in the medicine den for his gash from the raid still, not bothering to hear the debate as he just thought it was just a common dispute until Smokethistle rushed in with the kit and Barak was in shock, but quickly did what he could to help. As well, Benjamin confessed that it *was* Oleandertuft who attacked him and Swiftfur, which Barak wasn’t too surprised. And then Smokethistle took their…rather fury induced leave, attacking Oleandertuft in the clearing while Barak stayed with Benjamin, making sure he was okay, safe and sound. After a few, long moments, Oleandertuft was dead—not killed by Smokethistle, but her apprentice, Patchpaw (also feliden’s!).

Oleandertuft wasn’t finished, unfortunately for Barak, and a day, day or two after she died appeared in his dreams and *attacked* him somehow. And the concept of the Dark Forest was unbeknownst to him, since MistClan was a Clan who didn’t believe in StarClan, let alone the opposite. Swiftfur had woke him up after he had tore up his nest, and he said (and did) he’d tell her later what happened, as there was a *certain kit* nearby he didn’t want to scare. But then she came again, but instead of crazed rage, she was back to her planning and venomous self that Oleandertuft was in life. He had surprisingly been winning the battle for a moment, but he knew that wouldn’t last long, and he got lucky again, being woken up, but by the worst cat, Benjamin, who immediately ran to get Smokethistle, who he hadn’t told personally as well. And so came that awkward conversation, and then after came him trying to avoid sleeping, but is absolutely terrible at it, but most of all the guilt of making Benjamin scared that Oleandertuft could hurt him, Barak, or Smokethistle when she was supposed to be *dead*, and causing more problems for Smokethistle when he desperately didn’t want them to worry.

WOO OK PHEW THATS ALL

#warrior cats #art #digital art #cats #emo little fucker #also femboy

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