people dont talk enough about how heartbreaking the marlon betrayal mustve been for clem too,,

this dude saves the life of her and her kid. takes them in has them patched up gives them their first hot meal in who knows how long. gives them a safe place to stay. possibly permanently. confides in her that hes trying to be a good leader but feels like and fears that hes failing. asks her to help him take care of the rest of the group. helps her get over her fear of dogs by asking her to trust him. and things go well. she feels safe. like this place could really finally be the home shes been looking for

but as soon as she finds out what happened to the twins. that marlon planned on giving up her and aj too. she immediately becomes a liability to him and he attempts to kill her for it. locks her in the basement to die by walker. then tries to turn the group against her so he can shoot her instead when the first method fails. and he nearly succeeds

then a majority of the group turn against clem the minute aj kills marlon. ignoring marlons mistakes but condemning aj for his. like clem wasnt betrayed by marlon in the exact same way he betrayed the twins. like she literally wasnt almost killed twice? and how long had he been considering giving her up? was it always some contingency he planned? did he truly want to keep them around and things only changed when he feared the raiders had returned? she'll never know

what are all of your canon choices for each s4 episode? like did you kill the walker couple? did you bury ms. martin? did you shoot lilly? did you trust aj? i'm very curious!

Here is where I expose that I was in the minority for a lot of the major choices in TFS...

Episode 1:

I didn’t kill the walker couple. I would have due to remembering that moment in S2 where Clem got attacked going through the security window - but then AJ opened his mouth and I was like “oh no, little buddy...”. People come first, and with no evidence that going through the window would be negative, it seemed like an important empathy teaching moment for AJ. (And if there was a walker in that room I would be screaming how? since the building was locked, the room was locked, and those windows were boarded too well for something to get in)

And I put a stopper on the AJ swears. I know it doesn’t really matter, but having heard toddlers with absolutely filthy language IRL... yeah, I don’t like it. Be a kid for a bit longer, AJ.

Learn to share. AJ hasn’t had to do that before so I get why he has problems with it, but I encouraged him to return everything.

I went hunting with the boys. And then went rabbit shooting with Aasim. Because if you read my last response about shipping... yeah, I wanted to romance the archer boy. To be fair, I just generally agree more with Aasim’s long-term survival plan.

I let Abel take the food. And as foolish as some people might think it is, since he kept emphasising he just wanted dinner I was fine with him taking a portion. We were still getting more food than we had before. Plus yeah, I value life more than the prospect of one more theoretical dinner when we had other sources to use.

And at the end of the episode I appealed to Louis - because yeah, I spent more time with him than Violet. It made more sense with my previous choices.

Episode 2:

Bad, AJ. No assassination headshots under this roof. That is a very quick way to lose friends.

I told AJ to give Louis his gun. I wasn’t under the impression that Louis was going to keep it - though with how long it took for him to give it back I did start doubting myself.

Be nice to James... why wouldn’t you at that point? Though I am still suspicious of where he got that apple...

Buried Ms Martin. This was more about Ruby, and she clearly needed the closure. I don’t think it really is necessary to bury walkers, but people’s feelings on the issue take precedence over my own opinions.

DISCO BROCCOLI SHIRT. AJ’s face was so happy, I had to.

Brick trap... definitely not because it was Aasim’s idea. (actually not sarcasm, it is more practical)

Marry Aasim (duh at this point), Flip Ruby, Kill James... one of those things did end up happening, so foreshadowing I guess.

If you love Ruby so much, go to talk to her, guy. Seriously, I would wingman/wingwoman the hell out of this situation if you want it, Aasim. But you have to take the first step if you want to walk that road.

Piano date. Though I didn’t carve the heart initially... a bit too cheesy for my taste. Though there was smooches, so maybe I’m not immune to cheese.

No, AJ. You don’t get to call dibs on killing people. And no swears. Accidental swears are fine - I’m not going to punish it, but I would rather he not put them into his general language.

Save Louis... and I felt like an absolute dick. Like... this decision was awful to make. Violet came to the rescue when Lilly had the gun on Clem, and it sucks that you can’t return the favour. But like... why did you do this to me, game?

Episode 3:

No Abel torture, not with AJ there. And even if he wasn’t, I don’t think I’d go that far. Maybe I would refuse water and stub out the cigarette - but I wouldn’t hurt him. And yeah, Mercy kill. He wanted that.

James asks me not to kill the walkers, so I don’t kill the walkers. He wants me to listen to his opinions on walkers, so I listen. He wants reassurance that his opinions have a semblance of logic to them?.... uhh, this one is more washy. I say there could be something more to walkers because there very well could be. You can’t say there isn’t, so there also isn’t any reason to shoot him down since it’s all speculative anyway.

Told AJ to leave/run if Clem got bit. I might be the weird one here, but I really couldn’t care less if I was dead or a walker - I don’t think it matters from the bitten person’s perspective. It matters from the safe person’s perspective, and if AJ doesn’t want to be responsible for pulling the trigger, then I don’t want him to feel compelled to. That’s his decision, not mine - but I’d rather him lean more to the changeable option than the unchangeable one.

Party mix - purple lights, classical music, and ‘See you on the other side’. Named that bomb after Willy - felt a little odd to name it after Mitch when it’s Willy’s effort. He did it for Mitch though, so I understand both those decisions.

Let AJ get the jump on Dorian. I did think they were threatening to take off Louis’ full hand though, which would be the equivalent of a death sentence. Glad it wasn’t that serious, but oof. 

...I did what James wanted. Sorry, James. I do stand by this decision anyway... If Clem had the gun, then I’m not sure what I would have picked.But with AJ behind the trigger - no, he isn’t shooting that gun. He’s like 5, he can’t understand the nuance between that situation and the one with Marlon. It just can’t be instilled into his young brain that the ultimate solution to a problem is to kill someone, especially since in both cases the people are (supposedly) unarmed and begging to be let go.

Episode 4:

Trusted AJ. Every decision I had made in regards to AJ was consistent, and so if he was legitimately listening and going to take the advice I had given him, then I shouldn’t be concerned. Also, retroactively seeing how the scene is different if James is alive - I do think my version of that scene is primed to encourage me to trust AJ. The James scene in the cave feels like you’re being encouraged to distrust AJ’s decision making.

We are building a one story house, it’s painted purple and has a mahogany piano where AJ and Clem take lessons from Louis. God, I loved this dialogue moment. It feels like real conversations you have with people playing the “What if-” game.

Sorry about my previous choices, Tenn... I wasn’t happy about that.

Told AJ to leave me there. I stand even further in that corner now that there’s an axe involved. I’ll admit to crying a little bit here... I can’t help it. If a child starts crying (and I mean emotional crying - not a temper tantrum type of cry) then my empathy kicks into overdrive and I cry with them.

(Though I will point out a plot issue here - AJ has never seem amputation work in my game as a means to stop a person dying from a bite. The only way he could come up with that idea is if Clem told him about Reggie in S2... something that happened 5-6 years previous to that point. I don’t think Clem would actually bring that up since there are more occasions in her past where it hasn’t worked, so I have no idea where AJ got the amputation idea from as a potential solution.)

As for the AJ moment with walker Tenn, I distracted Tenn... no point in wasting a bullet, and I still don’t think it’s necessary to kill ‘known’ walkers as if it somehow frees them.

And of course AJ burps at the table, tells Clem she’s the best, and is determined to get her a new foot. Because no matter what, he’s still a 5 year old. 

I just played ep 3 and you wanna know what things fucking ripped my heart out and fucking stomped on it and tried to shove it back in with scotch tape and glitter glue? SPOILERS, DUH.

*Also this might be the most in-depth and analytical thing I've done so... it's long.

A) When Louis picks up Minnie's crossbow and fucking accidentally shoots that woman and he's like "i..I didn't mean...fuck" or something like that. That fucking voice acting shredded me and I will never be over that. Louis, Louis of all people, the lighthearted jokester that just wants everyone to be happy was forced to shoot a woman in the skull! In one of the most grisly deaths in the season at that! Skybound can throw hands with me for that one. Also when Clem goes to get Aj Louis, even as broken and torn as he is at this point, he still tries to come with her. The best boy honestly.

B) Look, I know Lilly is the villian of this season. I'm fully aware of this. But she obviously still kinda cares about Clementine, as in ep 2 she said, and I quote "this SHOULD be easy." But it's not. It's not easy to shoot clem. But then she just fucking takes Aj? And then tries to strangle Clem on the side of the boat? And then when I mercied her and tried to let her live, she just???fucking kills James??? Like, I already didn't like James (I'm sorry James stans) but he didn't deserve that. And then the bomb goes off and we don't even get to Aj in time??? Like, 👊👊👊 throw hands.

C) When Aj talks about Clem getting bit and how he'd want her to bite him. Like, fucking James just had to say something. This boy is 6, maybe 7 at the absolute latest. He's impressionable, he learns from what he hears. You can't just tell him that walkers are still kinda human. If they had any shred of humanity left, they would not kill people. Especially those close to them, like Lee's brother tried to kill Lee when he was under that lamppost. Just fucking stop I'm crying.

D) LOUIS' STORY. If you did the Violet path and didn't hear Louis', basically he was rich. Like, filthy rich. But the only thing his dad wouldn't buy him was singing lessons. Louis got so mad at what his dad said to him, "You can either be happy or you can be rich," that he wanted to teach his dad a lesson. He started buying things on his dad's credit card that eluded to his dad having an affair (jewelry, hotel rooms, etc.) And when this worked, his parents got the divorce, he came clean. He told his dad "You can either be rich or you can be happy." A week later he was at the school. And just fucking??? How much his character has grown in the 8-9 apocalypse years??I'm so proud of him. Sure, younger Louis was a little shit, but he knows how fucked up what he did was. If you watch the scene, it's so....heartbreaking. like it's his biggest regret, even with all the Marlon shit thrown in. I love Violet with my whole heart, but I fucking love Louis' storyline.

E) VIOLET WHAT THE FUCK??? As I stated before, I love Violet. She's my favorite gay/gal in the whole apocalypse. But what the fuck? Like, you...I get it. I saved Louis instead of you, but wait a fucking minute I made it blatantly obvious that I love Louis (my son) and when you see me in the prison cell you're like "fuck you I'm staying here with my psychotic gf." Like??? I think the writers made a huge character mistake with that because there's no way Violet would have actually done that to me. Also especially after Minnie admits to killing Sophie, which I'll touch on later. Like, her character would NOT do that. Idgaf if she still loved Minnie or not, she'd be fucking pissed.

F) We have to talk about Minnie. Just....ugh. Props to telltale/skybound because holy fuck. That got me. That got me good. She just??? Is completely brainwashed by the delta and lilly? She killed her own sister, and despite me telling her what Tenn told me to she still locked me in the cell? Also she doesn't say one loving thing to Violet, who literally is willing to get herself blown up just to be with her. And when that woman tells her her family is the delta and to forget about Tenn she just fucking accepts it? Like??? Fuck off bitch?

G) Louis' date was the cutest shit

H) I'm sorry but at the party that first bio sounded a fuck ton like Marlon and Idc what anyone else says you cannot convince me that my love Ruby ever did such things.

I) I hate that the story is so compelling that, even after all she's fucking done, I still care about Lilly. I call this "the Kenny effect." We have history, and that matters a lot to me. Even if I don't agree with her ever, I still don't want her to die. (Like with the Kenny/Arvo thing) I see her as family, which is why in s1 I let her stay after she shot carley and in ep 2 of this season I told her we were family. I do care about Lilly, and then she just kills James??? Like, ugh. I wish she would just fucking stop and I could hug her and everything would be fine and Lee isn't actually dead and Christa and Molly and Kenny and everyone's alive and AAHHHHH.

J) The scene where Minnie has clem's knife against clem's chest and is pushing down is so fucking similar to the Kenny/Jane situation is s2. Minnie is Jane and Clem is Kenny, this time all of the kids from the school is clem. Both Minnie and Clem want them to be safe, but they have very different ideas on how they'll be safe. Clem wants to protect them at all costs, and Minnie wants to protect them by getting rid of clem. (Like how Jane wanted to get rid of kenny) I'm crying in the club.

K) James fucking making me walk in the barn full of walkers to touch the wind chime. I was literally so anxious during this and I knew that it's a game but just??? That would have been a pointless death.

L) ABEL. NO! Look I don't like this guy as much as the rest of ya'll, but they way he just breaks down??? I refused to torture him, and I put out his cigarette. He begs to be killed because he doesn't want to turn. This is so visceral and raw that I almost cried when my knife went through his head. Then the screen thing told me I tortured him in front of Aj?? Hello? When did I do that??? I gave him mercy, I gave him peace.

M) Louis toasting to the fact that he thinks he's gonna die at the boat just fucking destroys me.

N) Rosie is the goodest girl and didn't get enough screen time.

O) Louis helping clem up when she gets pulled under water by a walker is cleansing for my soul

P) Omar and Aasim got like 4 lines between them and that's fucking breaking the law

Q) I literally only found 1 collectible where the fuck where they all???

R) I was legitimately going to not kill any of the walkers when James was getting his mask, but I honest to God kept dying over and over so I literally had to kill one of them.

S) the fact that James kept bringing up how much of a heartless bitch I am for not caring about dead people that are walking and killing the living and everyone I've ever cared about.

T) The sheer genuis of the dialogue option that asks James if he knows the names of the walkers and he's confused and clem is just like "Omar, Aasim...Violet." like, he doesn't know the walkers. They're killing machines that he has no attachment to. Clem's friends are alive, and she cares about them deeply. Like fuck off m8.

U) Aj is so broken and confused and scared I don't know how to fix him he's a murderer but he's trying to atone and I just hope to God Lee would actually be proud of Clem and I just wish he was alive and Clem and Aj and him were a family and he could meet the boarding school kids at then Louis would learn about history, something I hc him as never being good at in school, and Louis teaches him how to play the piano and he teaches Violet how to actually map the stars and she teaches him all the fighting skills she's learned and Lee takes a liking to Tenn and makes sure to thank Omar for cooking and appreciates willy and mitch and what they do and supports and learns medicine from ruby and stops Aj from killing Marlon and talks him through the bad shit and helps him atone for his sins and then he meets Rosie and when he sees Lilly again she stops being a hateful cunt and we kill all the delta people and go back to the school and everyone, including mitch and James and Minerva and Sophie is alive and this is getting way to long aahhhh.

V) When Louis is freaking out about the responsibility of planting the bomb, and it gives you to either slap him or kiss him and that's the fucking cutest shit

W) the fact that it never let's me hug Tenn or Willy, nor have a funeral for Mitch. Like I know we were crunched for time, but it would've taken 10 minutes tops.

X) to my knowledge, Tenn and Menerva never see eachother. Maybe she would have changed if she saw him? I don't know...

Y) I don't have the option to cuddle with Rosie and that's an actual crime.

Z) When the kids are talking about all the people they've lost. 34 people. 34. We've lost a lot, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's 34. It might be close, but some of those people we weren't close to nor knew for very long. Also the fact that they've lost 34 but only have like 5 graves. Wtf?

*) AND THE BIGGEST THING THAT TORE MY HEART INTO PRICES WAS THE LEE SCENE, AND THE DIALOGUE OPTION OF TELLING LEE HE'S NOT REAL AND HE TELLS CLEM THAT IT'S OKAY TO BE A LITTLE NUTS AND THEN THE HUG AND THE "LOOK AT YOU..." FROM LEE AND AAAHHHH I MISS HIM SO FUCKING MUCH.

*Edit: I'm not saying I love Lilly as much as I do Kenny, I could never like her that much, even if she had a change of heart and died protecting clem or Aj. I'm saying "the Kenny effect" because he was being an asshole, however you try to defend him. He wasn't in the right, and harmed an innocent kid (Arvo) just like Lilly does. Cool? Cool.

An Analysis on AJ’s Morals and Future

SPOILERSSSSS

You know, I just realized how actually messed up the decision is to kill Lilly or keep her alive in episode 3.

This post is gonna be long, mainly because I’m an Honours English major doing a complex analysis of a piece of media, so tldr;

Clementine can give AJ conflicting advice in episode 2 vs. the end of episode 3 that may mess with his head and affect the outcome in episode 4 regarding when it is/isn’t okay to kill someone.

In episode 2, AJ shoots and kills an unarmed man because he believed that he was evil, vicious, and a threat. As Clementine, you have two ways in which you can talk to AJ about this: you can tell him that he was justified because Marlon was a bad person, or that he wasn’t justified because Marlon was unarmed and no longer a threat. Right now, I want to discuss and hypothesize on how episode 2′s conversation and episode 3′s ending may affect AJ’s character development in episode 4.

First things first, let’s discuss telling AJ he was justified:

Walking away from this conversation, AJ will believe that what he did was correct. This conversation teaches him that if a person has been a threat in the past, they will be a continued threat in the future. Now, there are a couple ways this can be interpreted. One is that AJ will forever hold mistakes against characters for the rest of the game.

In the real world, when someone makes a mistake, we may be wary of them. More often than not, people let things go. We accept that, potentially depending on severity, people are capable of growth and change. Clementine here is teaching AJ that no matter what their threat level is in the present, that he must never let go of their threat level in past.

This is also important when it comes to James as a character. In the past, as he explains in episode 3, he was a massive threat: killing a Whisperer during a disagreement. However, as far as we currently see, he’s changed. His mistakes changed him. This is what Clementine’s teaching fails to show AJ: that sometimes mistakes change people for the better, and that mistakes aren’t always consistent.

Now, let’s discuss Clem’s second option: telling AJ he was in the wrong.

By teaching AJ this, Clementine is showing him that when people are not seen as threats, there is no reason to kill them, even when in a position to do so. If they oppose no immediate threat to you, there is no sense in killing them. This doesn’t answer for people who are threats in the long-term threats like Lilly, but we’ll get to that.

Again, using James as an example, this teaching would show AJ that mistakes can make a person better, and that being a threat at one point doesn’t permanently make them one. This decision teaches AJ that people are capable of change, and that when someone let’s their guard down, despite your convictions, there is a possibility of them no longer being a threat. In layman’s terms: this decision shows AJ that not all people who mess up will continue to mess up. Essentially, this decision teaches AJ about trust.

Now, let’s discuss episode 3.

At the end of episode 3, much like the end of episode 1, AJ is presented with the same choice but with a twist: AJ has the ability to shoot and kill an unarmed woman because he believes that she is to be evil, vicious, and a threat. As Clementine, you influence his decision.

And depending on what you told him in episode 2, this could fuck AJ up.

The major difference in this decision is that we have history with Lilly, in specific, we know she is incapable of change. During the in-game time that has passed since season 1, Lilly has shown that she cares about survival and not humanity. This is why it makes sense to kill Lilly. We know that Lilly isn’t going to change if she was kept alive. In season 1, Lilly can betray Lee and the rest of their team multiple times, and in season 4 Clementine sees the exact same behaviour. Lilly has not redeemed herself since season 1, and Clementine knows she is still a threat.

But AJ doesn’t know this, at least not the same way Clementine does. This is why Clementine’s decision is so detrimental, and is also the difference between Marlon and Lilly: there was still faith for Marlon. There was none for Lilly.

But AJ doesn’t know this.

If you tell AJ to shoot Lilly while simultaneously punish him for shooting Marlon, he’ll get a conflicting message about killing an unarmed person, and on whether or not that person is still a threat.

If you choose to discourage AJ from shooting Lilly while supporting him for killing Marlon, AJ will be confused about under what grounds are appropriate for killing a “threat.”

And if your choices are fairly consistent - A: discouraging Marlon’s death and sparking Lilly, or B: justifying Marlon’s death and killing Lilly - both of the lessons detailed above will be furthered solidified either giving AJ an alarming sense of trust in those who may be undeserving or influencing him toward becoming trigger-happy.

So, what does this mean for episode 4?

A lot of things.

This paves the way for a lot of moral questions to occur in episode 4. AJ could either become more of a pacifist when it comes to spotting threats, or too eager to shoot anything remotely suspicious. Even worse, if Clementine gave him conflicting advice, he could be too confused to do anything and may rely solely on Clementine for guidance in every situation opposed to learning to think for himself. He would be perpetually stuck trying to understand what the formula is for when it is or isn’t okay to kill someone.

And that, right there, is AJ’s major issue: he sees everything in black and white when in the apocalypse, everything is grey. There is no formula.

There is no concrete way to determine whether or not someone who has betrayed you is going to stay a threat. There is no way to know if pulling the trigger is the right call. Everything in the apocalypse is blind faith and trust. Essentially, that’s what Telltale Games has been encouraging since the game’s creation.

When playing the game for the first time, you don’t know what the “right” call is, and that’s because there isn’t one. You don’t know if it’s better to save Carley or Doug. You don’t know if it’s better to abandon Lilly by the side of the road or keep her with you. You don’t know if you should cut off Lee’s arm or leave it.

And that’s part of the thrill of the game: as a player, you’re going through the same dilemma as the characters. You’re equally as lost as they are. You learn that there isn’t a right or wrong answer, merely reactions to situations that you feel best fit your morals.

That is what Clementine has struggled with teaching AJ, and that is what I think the fatal flaw in episode 4 will be: the ways in which you teach AJ about trust, faith, and determining character.

What's your take on the non-determinant deaths? I'm seeing a lot of, uh, vitriolic opinions. I disagree that the ones so far in TFS were "only for shock value"; Brody's = show how Marlon is desperate/afraid of the raiders; Marlon's = show how ruthless AJ can be; before the AMA explained Mitch's, I saw it = Lilly isn't 100% stone-hearted. To say they're shock value implies they served no other purpose, but IMO they did. Were they shocking? Yeah. But compare them to Nick/Sarah/Luke/Tripp/Ava lol

Okay, so my reply to this Ask might piss off some of my friends or followers lol

I just want to say beforehand that I also wish we had more time with the killed off characters and it’s a shame the lost potential we could have had with them.

This is just my personal opinion in the topic. Not trying to state it as a fact.

_____

But I do agree with you that there is a difference between “shock value” and something being shocking.

Or alternately: Something CAN be shock value and STILL have a purpose.

^ That I can agree with regarding the deaths. But their deaths only being for shock value? I couldn’t disagree more.

In regards to Mitch, I do kinda feel like that one leaned more towards “shock value” since we kinda knew how serious the raiders were that scene based on numerous other things that happened (Omar getting shot and the fact they have a sniper in a tree to shoot us) but at the same time, it did serve the purpose of showing Lilly’s character and much like you, I also picked up on it playing the episode. I dunno, his death was the one I felt had the least influence (so far anyway) in the story but apparently it does serve a purpose later on on the season?

He is probably the closest I can agree regarding the arguments.

In regards to Brody, what you said is essentially true to why she was killed off and it served a narrative purpose.

Now on to Marlon!

Okay so I previously made a post on this topic regarding him in episode 1 and got some colourful Asks in my inbox on how wrong I am (putting it politely here).

Keep in mind that this is just MY viewpoint and also based on the statements made by Kent in a previous AMA. This isn’t by any means hate on Marlon of whatever kind - I’m just being rational towards his death based on a writing standpoint. I feel like I have to say that since he is a weirdly controversial character in the fandom.

Marlon’s death is far from “shock value”. YES it was shocking and much in Telltale fashion was used to shock us at the end of the episode.

But it served a purpose in the story - and he was always intended from the beginning to be killed off. He was never written with the intention of having a redemption because that’s not what the purpose of his character was in the story (even if a redemption arc could have been interesting).

Marlon had to die in order for them to tell the story that they wanted from within the time that they had.

If Marlon survived then most of the events in the current story would have changed.

According to Kent and from what I personally took from episode 1 playing it. AJ killing Marlon was used to show just how bad AJ can be and just how serious we should take teaching AJ this season.

^Something of which is a very important element of the season that each episode reminds us of (and is apparently going to factor a lot into the final episode).

Marlon’s death was to teach the player that we can’t just casually shrug off everything AJ learns from us as a player.

It was also meant to factor into Clementine’s growth this season into a leader and her bonds with the other group members (despite being shunned by them) - which is the natural development for her character at this point given previous seasons.

A lot of things I often seen brought up is how Telltale said Marlon was a very important character this season back in the first ever Telltale panel for the game.

They weren’t lying you know. (maybe being vague was misleading, but still) Marlon WAS very important to the season. Based on what I said above - but he is also important for kicking off the entire season’s story as a whole.

Was Marlon’s death shocking? Yes.Was it purely shock value? Hell no.

People are allowed to have different opinions on the subject, and it’s fine if you disagree.

But I do sometimes feel like the writers of this season get unfairly bashed by fans sometimes when it comes to this topic.

For the record, I would have loved to have seen all 3 characters still alive for a little longer.

But I would also be lying if I said I don’t understand the reasons of why they were killed off in the first place (at least for Marlon and Brody).

Tbh I’m just glad that they aren’t killing off most of the group per episode like in previous seasons.

Someone in our group has to die each episode or else there is no weight to the survival element. Not everyone we like can live. So I’m just glad it’s only 1 or 2 each episode and not like half the entire cast.

Was AJ justified or not?

not justified. understandable, but not justified

the situation was a bad one. marlon Was trying to kill clem. aj was ready to do whatever he needed to to protect her. but hes a young child. either through fighting or talking marlon will stand down. the threat has been dealt with but aj doesnt realize that. marlon drops the gun and aj takes it because he still feels threatened and is ready to do what he thinks he has to to protect clem (whos life WAS on the line twice that night). he doesnt know the difference because hes never been taught the difference. all he knows is danger and survival. hes unsocialized and doesnt know what its like to be a part of a larger group. he was already biting and hitting anyone who would come up behind him reflexively because hes a traumatized little kid who doesnt know anything besides protecting himself first and asking questions later

he messed up. he thought he was helping. he wanted to protect clem. he was scared. it was a horrible mistake, but its not like marlon was completely innocent. marlon Was a threat, he just wasnt anymore when aj finally got his gun back. aj just couldnt recognize that because hes 5 years old and doesnt know any better. louis yells at clem asking her what the hell she taught him, but its more about what he Wasnt taught. he only knows survival and to eliminate threats. no room for nuance because its just been him and clem and a fight for survival for years. ericson is the kind of environment aj desperately needs, where he can be Safe, where survival isnt the only thing he needs to focus on. he needs socialization and support and patience, otherwise he will only get worse. clem knows this. its partially why shes so desperate to find a home for them. she sees what the world is doing to this little boy and so desperately does not want that for him, even if it keeps him safe

i do not like a justified aj. for me teaching him to be repentant and to know the difference between a threat like marlon and a threat like lilly is important. marlon wasnt a monster, he was a scared kid just like aj is, and they both make mistakes that cost people their lives. but lilly IS a monster, in the sense that she is a legitimate threat that cannot be reasoned with. so teaching aj that him killing marlon was wrong, but still telling him to shoot lilly, i have confidence in him that he Can tell the difference, it just needs reinforcing in the cave for him to Get It. to steer him away from that anger. hes learning when to make the hard calls. and because of that i believed him when he gave his little speech in the cave. i Did trust him. but seeing other routes and other cave speeches i can def understand why some people didnt trust him. raising aj into a person you can trust feels like the whole point to me. people will teach aj that he was justified and then hate him for his actions like YOU TAUGHT HIM THAT

Wait, people think Carver is the best TWDG villain?? I always thought he was basic as hell, and the fact that he was beefing with an 11-years old girl... Now Stranger on the other hand was great, he was super intimidating and off-putting and I was genuinely so scared he would hurt Clementine. I also liked Minnie for the same reasons (she was so creepy/off-putting), but I still think Stranger is the best villain bc he had a great setup while Minnie was kind of a secondary villain. But going back to Lilly/Carver, I also definitely prefer Lilly over Carver even though neither are my favorite... And now I'm kind of curious how you would rank the rest of the TWDG villains? 🤔

carver being the best villain is a sentiment ive heard for years 😭 im sure its coming from the "S2 is the best season" crowd tho which i also dont agree with 💀

the stranger is an effective villain. hes not exactly the typical villain type people expect. but hes very unsettling and him stalking clementine for who even knows how long through the walkie talkie is 🤢 he really makes me feel sick. she was using that talkie to deal with the loss of her parents, and this fucking creep took advantage of that so hard he was able to convince her to trust him. ugh he makes me feel so gross. and think of all the guilt clem must have about that situation. trusting this freak to help her find her parents, when if she had just stayed then lee wouldnt have gotten bit looking for her, and her parents were already dead the entire time anyway. oof. theres no way that isnt one of the biggest regrets of her life

carver is fine. i definitely think his character wouldve made more sense if they put kenny in that role instead. that way theres less "i am a grown man beefing with an 11 year old" and more "this is a child i helped look out for once, and im gonna make sure shes raised Right". but i agree that carver as he is is just over the top. overly villainous to the point of it being a little comical. like when villains are all tough like that my reaction is usually "god i WISH youd fucking kill me already so i dont have to hear your bullshit anymore do you know how GOOFY you sound??". if it was kenny in that role i definitely think they wouldve been able to tone it back a bit, and him "having a good side" wouldve been way more believable. as he is carver is kind of one note

joan.... definitely the weakest of the bunch. i dont really have much to say about her. david isnt even technically a villain but i definitely saw him as the better antagonist for the season. i mean hes definitely a villain in clems eyes. and is a constant semi-antagonist towards javi throughout the whole season. joans just kinda.. there.. doing things behind the scenes to cause conflict until the final confrontation. and then she can just disappear... okay

i like the way the antagonists work in S4. theres more of a discussion around what actually makes someone a villain and the difference between a person who fucked up and made (very horrible) mistakes, and a person who is straight up a threat. and i like that it connects back to the idea of lee and his murder of that senator. did he do something horrible? yes. did he destroy his relationship to his family? yes. does he regret what he did? i think so. and he definitely has guilt about his fucked up relationship with his wife. in S1 they mention how non-guilty people got sent to prison all the time. while lee is Definitely a murderer, we get to see over the season that hes a good guy who just wanted a family and in a moment of rage and betrayal did something he can never take back. this is why i never hated marlon. did he fuck up and do horrible things? of course. but he was a scared fucked up teen leading a group of other scared fucked up teens. he knows he fucked up, and continued fucking up to cover for his previous fuck ups lol. but he can be talked down. its a shame it ends the way it does, but i really like being able to teach aj the difference between people like marlon and people like lilly

lilly takes that kenny/carver idea and applies it to a clementine that has grown up and has been looking out for herself (and baby aj) for years now, instead of the 11 year old trying to figure shit out she was in S2. shes too old for lilly to be able to sway her in a way she couldve been more susceptible to in S2, and when lilly finally realizes this she just turns her attention to aj instead, seeing the potential in him (a potential clem does NOT want aj to live up to, wanting him to get to be a kid and not just a survivor, let alone a killer). lilly is fun because you can see in her that she WANTS clementine on her side, and throughout the season progressively realizes that its just never going to happen. both lilly AND clem come to the realization that this person they once considered family is beyond reason, their views too different, and so the fighting begins. their fight at the end of EP3 really feels like a "so its finally come to this" moment for both of them, their final fight. i always shoot her.

whats interesting about minnie is seeing her evolve from secondary antagonist in EP3 to straight up primary villain in EP4. the things shes done, the way shes been broken. she becomes her own downfall, seeing herself as someone beyond redemption. that this is just who she is now, its how things have to be. because if they didnt have to be this way? well then theres a lot more guilt she'd have to deal with. yelling at her in EP4 to just STOP FOR THE LOVE OF GOD YOU DONT HAVE TO DO THIS ANYMORE but she has been changed (in her eyes) so irreparably that she cant see any other option. and she progressively sees clem as the one who fucked everything up for her, instead of accepting that it could all finally be OVER. after killing sophie, the delta was all she had left. it cant have all been for nothing. and so she blames clem for taking it all away from her, even tho clem is just trying to protect her family. the family that used to be minnies. and so in her rage she gets bit. something else that she couldve avoided. but shes just too lost to her own downward spiral, unable to be reasoned with. by that point she just wants it all to be Over. and she wants to take tenn with her so she can finally pretend things can all go back to the way they used to be. her, sophie, tenn, and their parents all together again, where no more bad things have to happen to them. shes super tragic and i love her for that. and i love how she holds this dark mirror up to clem. clem struggles to let go of her past too, and the guilt she has over the things shes done and people shes hurt. and that if she cant learn to let go and move on she could get lost to it the same way minnie did. theres a reason clem is so quick to accept her fate, but shes finally able to leave that guilt holding her to her past behind in that barn. and she returns to ericson a much happier and lighter person, so much weight finally lifted from her shoulders. its finally over for her too

so yeah. my fave villains are definitely the S4 ones due to their nuance and layers. then the stranger, then carver, then joan. if i had to put david on this list he'd probably be above carver. but thats mainly because he has more nuance than carver ever did