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mallowstep · 3 years

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What are your opinions on forbidden relationships in Warriors? I've seen people label it as a "trope" because of how common this is. Some find the forbidden romance aspect intriguing, though others find it extremely repetitive and old

I'd like to know your thoughts!

hm. well, it is a trope. i mean, there's an average of one major one a series, right? greysilver, leafcrow (and others, but that's the big one), heatherlion (and implied others), tigerdove, idk i don't remember anything from avos but violetshine luv her but there's probably something, bristleroot. dotc doesn't count bc well it's dotc.

anyway.

definitely a trope.

but that's not a bad thing.

what i think people don't give warriors enough credit for is that these are not all the same forbidden romance. most of them are handled in different ways and bring up different conflicts. i understand why people are tired of them, but let's not discredit one of the only good things in warriors romance: that they make forbidden relationships different.

like, with grey and silver, it's about loyalty and responsibility. leafcrow is just bad idea central, both heatherlion and tigerdove are about responsibilities and young cats, and they have two different answers, and bristleroot is challenging the whole idea from the start.

so like. give credit where credit is due: we're not doing the same (forbidden) relationships again and again. i don't see enough people talk about that.

okay so it turns out i have um. a lot of thoughts about this. idk i just kept writing and now it's over 2k words. so you know. under the cut: matthew does half-baked media analysis to talk about why the code and cats' relationships to it are misunderstood. while actually staying on topic.

anyway from here on i'm just going to say relationship/romance, and understand that i'm generally talking about the forbidden kind. also i'm talking exclusively within the realm of warriors romance, which is, on average, bad. so when i say "X is good," i don't mean "X is good in general," i mean "given what we have, X is good." just to be clear.

right! basically, this is a tool. it creates tension and drama, and that's fine. warriors is a soap opera, remember. soap operas use secrets and relationships and all sorts of plot devices over and over again. warriors is not Serious. it can be dark. it has serious moments. but it is not a Serious Book Series for Serious Kids. it is a soap opera for Future Theatre Kids. yeah?

from that perspective, i'm a-ok with forbidden romance. (also, as a mini-aside, it creates some much-needed genetic diversity when kits are involved.) and again: all of the major relationships are different, so i think that's better than a lot of people give it credit for.

yeah, heatherlion and greysilver and tigerdove are all about the same general idea (loyalty and responsibility), but they all have different circumstances and different resolutions.

so like? yeah. sure. why not?

plus, like, who's reading warriors for the romance? i separate the concept of "romance" from a "relationship" here: i like the relationships in warriors (ivy and dove tension my beloved), but i'm not here to read about tigerheart wooing dovewing. (yes, i do love the tigerdove scenes in oots. no, that's not because i think they're very good at being romantic.)

but i digress.

if warriors was a Serious Book Series for Serious Kids, i'd have a different take here. having been in an IRL forbidden relationship, i have the Personal Insight and Experience to say they're this weird mash of "very much how it feels" and "not at all how it feels."

tigerdove is probably my favourite bc it's the closest to my circumstances, and i think dovewing is a good pov. i like how she breaks up with him because it's a bad idea, but that's not the same thing as not feeling for him.

(heh. twelve-year-old me reading oots like "this will never apply to my life" what did you know)

but to the point, if warriors was serious, i'd point out that the consequences always seem to be internal. we haven't seen characters be punished for their actions. and so on.

but warriors is a soap opera.

and here's my actual thesis: we haven't seen characters be punished for their actions, because "forbidden relationships" are a normal and expected part of clan society.

like no, fandom-at-large, you're kind of missing the point. okay, you know how like. people complain about. idk. ivypool and fernsong being distantly related?

(third aside/very long ivyfern rant, i put a nice big "rant over" after it if you want to skip past it: they're third cousins. they share, max, 2.2% of their genetics. they are fine. do you know your third cousins? do you? yeah. and like. they live in a closed society. there is no one new.

i've never seen someone complain about forbidden romance and ivyfern at the same time, and i do generally agree we should have more mystery fathers, altho for a different reason, but like. idk. this bothers me.

their last shared relative was nutmeg. that's so far back. god. i get it, there was a prophecy saying they're related, but if you remember my rant about how dovewing shouldn't be a part of the prophecy because of how distantly related to firestar is, you know how i feel about that already.

complaining they're related and that's a problem is. deep breath here. it requires demonstrating that warriors has kept track of kinship all the way back to firestar's mother. and even if you wave that requirement, you still have to convince me they would care about that. this isn't a "they're cats, harold" situation, this is a "you would not know your third cousin even if you lived in the same town" situation.

i mean maybe you would. some people do. but my hometown has generations of people who married within its borders. you get as far as "cousin," maybe "second cousin" if you're feeling fancy. i'm not trying to make an always true statement, i just. every time i see someone complain about ivyfern being related, it strikes me as not understanding how extended families work?

i know third cousins isn't technically classified as a distant relative, but you have, on average, 190 third cousins. i feel so strongly about this i looked it up.

like i'm not. okay if you say, "I don't ship ivyfern because they are third cousins and that makes me uncomfortable" you are Valid. in general, you are all valid. i do not think you have to, on a personal level, be okay with ivyfern. you are free to do as you wish.

but. if you want to argue "ivyfern is a Bad Ship because they are third cousins" you have a hell of a burden of proof. simply saying "they share a great-great-grandmother" does not meet that, because like. yeah. we're all pretty damn related.)

(ivyfern rant over)

IVYFERN RANT OVER

right so. anyway. if you remove forbidden romance? you're forcing a lot more of those situations.

i've been messing around with modelling some small-scale fan clan-adjacent stuff to double-check the ratios for wbcd, and it's. it quickly becomes a necessity, is what i'm saying.

but i got distracted like. researching how related third cousins are. my point is not about that, that's like. a different topic. that i crammed into here because i have no self-control.

no, no, what i was trying to get to is: oakheart straight up tells us that cats have half-clan kits all the time, it's not a problem, no one talks about it. and that? that is exactly what we see modelled by warriors.

the only reason greystripe and silverstream have a problem is that silverstream dies and greystripe claims the kits. i feel very strongly that if she had lived, the kits would have been born and raised riverclan kits, that might, maybe, one day, guess who their father is.

we haven't had any half clan kits in a while, which yes! i think is a problem, but like. the fact that the three are medicine cat kits seems to be a bigger issue. which feels right.

and i'm not trying to argue what i think should be, i legitimately believe the text of warriors defends this, even in newer books which throw out a lot of the older world building in favour of more human-like conflict.

as readers, we are naturally following protagonists. we are following the interesting story. but imagine you're just a background riverclan cat. minnowtail, if you will. do you think, do you honestly think, anyone cares about minnowtail?

not in a bad way, just. if she's meeting up with mousewhisker at night, do you think anyone cares? of course not! no one cares. she's not a Protagonist. her kits aren't going to be prophesized about.

heck, finleap switches clans! and it's barely a big deal. it feels like one, but when's the last time anyone bothered dealing with it? that's what i thought.

(also i forgot like all of avos so that very last point might be a bad one if it is my argument stands i just literally do not remember anything in avos but violetshine. none. zero.)

but it's easy to get caught up with characters like hollyleaf and bristlefrost and forget that like. not everyone cares about the code. most of our protagonists do, because it's become mostly equivalent with being moral. and i have an essay draft titled "the code as religion vs the code as law" where i want to expand on this more, but i think like. that idea, that we as readers should use the code as a way of evaluating cats' behaviour, is flawed.

like, i'm not talking about being inconsistent with how that is applied. if you want to say, "the trial leafpool goes through for having half-clan kits is legitimate because of the code," i still think your approach is flawed.

because the cats themselves don't seem to think that way.

the code doesn't, to me, feel like the ten commandments. it does not feel like "you must do this to be a good cat."

rather, it feels like aesop's parables. "here are mistakes cats made and what we do instead of that."

i don't think the cats know the code the way we do. i do not think they memorize a list of rules as kits. i think they know what is and is not part of it, but i imagine they know the stories far more than the rules.

(i'm working on my lore stories to replace code of the clans.)

and even if that's my thoughts, i do think this is supported by the text. no one ever teaches the warrior code, cats just learn it in pieces. "don't waste food because we don't have enough to spare" is taught, not "there's a rule about food and starclan on the code."

that's why the whole arc of the broken code even works: the reason the imposter is able to manipulate things is because cats don't treat the code as a rigid set of rules and commandments, but guiding principles.

the parts of the code that we tend to focus on the most are relationships, apprentices, and battle. or that's my perception. i didn't do a poll to obtain that. there's also the leader's word, but readers don't usually think of that as a good rule, so i'm not including it.

but the parts the cats focus on most are food, territory, and the leader's word. which makes sense: those are basic needs: food, security, and...i don't want to say authority so much as some kind of social system. explaining it would be a whole thing. just trust with me, if you don't mind.

i don't think we have any real reason to believe cats care about half-clan relationships half as much as we do. yes, apprentices are chastized about it, but that's not really the same thing as being punished.

and it's hard to tell, because apprentices being punished has really fallen off, and that's kind of the problem with any argument i try to make about warriors, but.

wow.

i'm actually still on topic? i'm 2k words in and i'm still on topic? a day i never thought would come.

let's wrap this up. cats seem to care about half clan relationships in that: a) they lead to conflicted loyalties, b) they mess with borders and prey, and c) they are in the code as bad. in that order.

and again, if the code was some high and holy religious doctrine, we couldn't have the broken code as an arc. it does not work if the cats are already following it to a t, and know it word for word, because it's signfiicantly harder to manipulate people if they do.

not to the level the imposter does, at the speed he does.

and yes, you could argue that it's more bad writing, but. i think that discredits warriors. yeah, it sure has its fair share of bad writing, but i don't think that's in the way the imposter works. instead, he seizes on a big important doctrine that's nebulous, and uses that to control people.

and that? that feels much more interesting.

so with that in mind, i don't think the cats would care about your typical, non-protagonist forbidden relationship, and i don't think we should, either.

as far as a plot device, i think we're okay with what we have. don't get me wrong, i understand why people are tired of it, but i think we also should remember that warriors is not repeating itself. having multiple forbidden relationships is not repetitive. now, if medicine cats were having half-clan kits every series, i'd make a different argument.

but all of the major forbidden relationships have different outcomes, lessons, and circumstances, and for me, i think that's signficantly interesting.

i didn't really check sources and quotes for this, so like, if you spotted something wrong, feel free to correct me. my overall point stands, but there's a lot of warriors and i have a bad memory, so i could have missed somthing major.

#ask #anon #essay #mine #discourse #not really but you know

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molzies-fanfics · 4 years

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Cruisin’

A/N: I’m really glad for my first Leo one shot that someone gave me the basic plot points because honestly writing for Leo is gonna go one of two ways for me, I’m either going to write him super out of character (or base him off of OOTS which might not be the best idea in my opinion) or it will be in character for this type of fic and you guys will like it. But I promise I’ll get better at writing for Leo either way.

Updated A/N: I ended up writing so much for this but I’m so happy with what I wrote even if it is a little out of character. (2979 words)

Leo x female!reader

Requested by: @iamcheese13

Leo had made a habit of trying to leave without anybody noticing and hoping to god they just assumed he was in his room, meditating. But Donnie had knocked on his door and opened it to see if he was there to only come up empty three times this week. THREE TIMES. It was incredibly unlike the fearless leader to just vanish without telling the rest of his team, his brothers, where he was going. Raph knew how brutal he was whenever he came back from a trip to the surface by himself, it was like Leo was the mother hen but no one knew who would tell him off. Splinter? Yeah but it wasn’t like Leo was actually doing anything wrong.

Going up to the surface for a breath of fresh air wasn’t against the rules or whatever. It was the part about not telling his family that stuck out. Eventually even April and Casey started to notice that they saw less and less of the blue banded turtle. Suspicions were starting to grow and it just got to the point where they knew they had to follow him. If he was going out almost five times a week? Something was definitely up.

Following him down to the docks? It was a bit unexpected but it wasn’t like they knew where he was going. Stalking a ninja without being noticed was the hard part, with all the falling behind they did (especially with April and Casey) it was surprising that they hadn’t lost Leo at some point. Watching him walk into an abandoned warehouse was even more sketchy than they thought, so his brothers assumed that he was either being black mailed or he was dealing with crime directly…by himself.

A couple minutes passed and they saw a young girl, around their age, jump down from a boat and make her way into the warehouse with a bright smile on her face. Raph was having none of it, “What if she’s working for the foot?” he whisper shouted to his accomplices. It was a reasonable question, but as far as the brothers knew, Leo was alone with that girl in there.

*Leo’s POV*

I had been meeting up with her for a couple months now, meeting her by accident when I was out by myself one night near the docks. I liked to stare at the water to help me calm down and this was after a particularly nasty fight with Raphael. Next thing I knew, the wooden roof underneath me had gave way and I blacked out. When I woke up she was there, hovering over me and tending to what little wounds I had. She had somehow managed to carry me to her boat and had me resting on her sofa bed.

The way she looked at me wasn’t with fear or hatred, but concern and dare I say kindness. I learnt that her name was Y/N and she had loved the water all her life, when she was a kid she’d tell grown ups she wanted to be a mermaid when she was older. She loves all marine life, she told me turtles were her favorites, which (almost embarrassingly) made me blush. Hopefully I don’t think she noticed.

We became friends and for some reason I wanted to keep her friendship to myself. Which led to the sneaking out, not telling my brothers or my father where I was going, who I was meeting and why I went I meet them so often. You see, Y/N lived by herself, she didn’t have many friends in the city and all she had was her boat and everything on it. I barely fit under the deck so we ended up meeting in a warehouse nearby, it was warmer and had a lot more space.

Seeing her almost every day helped me regain my belief, that what we were doing for the city was worth it. That even when the people we saved ran away screaming, it was okay because they were safe and not everybody was going to be accepting to who we are or what we do. Even if all we did was help from the shadows, at the end of the day it was better than nobody helping at all.

But tonight? I wasn’t expecting things to go differently. I was expecting an easy going conversation with a girl that I considered as my friend…and nothing else! Nope. But no, my family had to step in at some point. I just wasn’t expecting it to be so…awkward.

“So I told her that yes I do live on a boat but that it’s also none of her business!” Y/N was rambling about how her day had went, especially since she’d ran into someone she had known from high school. She had only graduated last year but nonetheless she wasn’t comfortable with people judging how she lived her life. “Good for you.” I chuckled warmly. Watching Y/N talk had slowly became one of my favorite things, maybe it was the way she described things or how she moved as she reenacted scenes but all I did know was that she looked beautiful. Wait, what?

A sharp tone sounded from Y/N’s bag, taking the irritating device out she answered it. “Oh! Hi Mom.” She blushed as she turned to face me, indicating the door she mouthed to me ‘Is it okay if I take this?’. I nodded, as if she had to ask, I knew she didn’t talk to her parents that often so who was I to say she couldn’t take a phone call?

Shooting me a bright smile before she scooted out the door, she gave me a small wave. I was still waving back even after she had closed the door. What was I doing? All we ever did was talk but I found myself wanting…more? God, just having her as my friend was enough and I was grateful for that but it felt like I had known for a long time that I was looking for a lot more than friendship. Maybe this was why I had kept her away from the others?

*Third person POV*

Crawling through one of the many warehouse windows, the others gazed down at Leo. He was alone and looked a bit…sad? Raph couldn’t help but feel like he was right, maybe the girl was working for the foot and had only just revealed it to Leo after he had given her all the information. On the other hand he should probably check in with his brother before jumping the gun, like he had ever done that before? There was something about how Leo was holding himself that made Raph think twice.

Jumping down, the others followed, with Casey falling into a pile of boxes becoming a clear indicator to Leo that he was no longer alone. Shooting up from his makeshift chair (a crate) Leo skittishly met the eyes of his brothers. “Oh-Hey! Hey guys…what’s up?” Blushing all kinds of shades of green, Leonardo internally face palmed at how he handled their arrival.

“What’s up? What’s up! You have been leaving the lair without telling us for months Leo! Months! We’re worried! That’s what’s up!” Raph yelled. He may not have jumped the gun but he still had a right to be angry. “I’ve…I’ve been busy Raph.” He mumbled pathetically, embarrassed. “Busy? How can you be busy? You haven’t got many hobbies besides taking down the foot! So unless you’ve been doing missions by yourself I want to know exactly what you’re doing?! No excuses!” Raph questioned harshly, Donnie and Mikey just looked disappointed with April and Casey awkwardly standing there witness the family argue. Well, one-sidely argue.

“I…met someone.” The leader muttered, hoping it wouldn’t go as badly as it had so far. “Oh you mean that girl? Who is she? Do you even know Leo? She could be working for the bad guys did that even cross your mind?!” The ran banded turtle accused. “She’s my friend and she saved me! If she was our enemy she would have left me! Or she would’ve hurt me by now, she wouldn’t have let it go on for this long!!” He finally snapped, not wanting Raph to turn his anger to Y/N. She didn’t deserve it after all she had done.

“Look bro just because you got a girlfriend doesn’t give you the right to just flake out on us and not tell us.” Mikey rubbed his arm, sad that all of the lying had to lead to this (but realistically how else was it going to turn out). “Mike I never meant for-wait you think she’s my girlfriend?” Leo’s blush returned in full force. The fact that other people saw it too made him think he wasn’t going crazy? “Well she is. Isn’t she?” April perked up.

“Uhhh-” Before Leo had a chance to explain the warehouse door creaked open. “Hey sorry that took so long my mom wanted to tell me about…macarons?” You seemed to question yourself as your eyes met the three other turtle men and two people. “Um…Hi?” You waved awkwardly, making your way over to Leo. “You didn’t tell me there were others like you?” You laid your doe eyes on him and all of a sudden it felt like his legs were made of jelly.

“Um, I didn’t know when to bring it up?” His voice squeaked as he smiled uneasily. “Well anyway, I’m Y/N. It’s nice to meet you!” You beamed as you looked back at the turtles, making eye contact with the one that seemed to be glaring at you. “Huh, I’m sure you’d love for him to tell you everything wouldn’t you?” Raph snarked “Raph don’t.” Donnie finally spoke up. “No, maybe I should because nobody else will, not even Leo! Who’s supposed to be our fearless leader. It’s ridiculous! He’s so distracted he has no idea if she’s gonna stab him in the back or not.” Donatello glared at his brother as he made his argument right in front of you.

“Wait, you think I’m going to betray your trust?” Turning back to Leo, you needed to know if this was true. “My brothers do. I don’t think you would.” You could tell he was being sincere by how he was looking into your eyes. It made you want to melt. “Hey! Don’t group us into Raph’s spiel! We don’t even know her yet. Besides I don’t see why this is so different from when we met April and Casey.” Mikey reasoned. “Mike’s right. I’m April by the way.” She shook your hand, smiling warmly. “I’m Casey.” He introduced by waving behind the reporter.

“And I’m Michelangelo! Leo’s younger brother and the best looking of the group!” He winked as he slung an arm around you. Jealousy flared up in him for a moment, he shoved him off of you. “Sorry about him, he doesn’t know personal space is a thing!” He growled at the orange banded brother. You laughed at the interaction, “I didn’t know they were your brothers! That’s so cool!” Placing a hand on Leo’s arm you watched him calm down at your touch.

“Anyway I’m Donatello, some would say I’m the brains either way I’m far more intelligent than these knuckleheads.” The purple banded turtle quipped before Raph could throw a punch at him. You were still a bit nervous about him, he clearly didn’t trust you and was very protective of Leo and his family. “Don’t worry, if the others are okay, Raph will be too. He just needs time.” It was as if Leo could read your mind. With the amount of time you two had spending together lately, you wouldn’t be surprised if he had picked up on your mannerisms.

*a couple hours later*

“I mean…it wouldn’t be all that bad if Leo brought you by the lair sometime. Maybe even meet master Splinter.” Raph admitted. You’d thought it would take a couple of days, months maybe to earn even a shred of trust. Although the way you treated and held yourself around his brothers convinced him that you didn’t have a malicious bone in your body.

“Thanks Raphael.” You smiled politely, trying your best to not show how tired you really were. The others had called it quits for the night after hanging out for a bit, dawn was almost here and the turtles couldn’t be seen in daylight hours. “I’ll see you all soon, alright?” Patting down your pockets, you started to back away, double checking you hadn’t forgotten anything. “Aw hell yeah! Next time we see you, we’re playing Mario kart ‘kay?” Mikey pointed finger guns at you before bounding away. “Sure!” you giggled.

Donnie nodded, bowing slightly before walking alongside April and Casey who were yawning, leaning against each other. “I’ll walk you back to the boat.” Leo offered, giving you that smile with all the warm feelings behind it. “Thanks.” You grinned back, kicking the snow in your path into the frigid water below. Living at the docks was usually cold, but with Leo around it made you forget how alone you were, how cold reality was. You wish he was around more often but after tonight you realized how much he had given up just to come and see you. Even though what he did was wrong it made you feel…special, like you were special to him.

“Is it true you snuck away from your family just to see me?” Curiosity boiled over, the look on Leo’s face confirmed it. He felt guilty, you know that, but had it been worth it? “Yeah…it’s true. I just, didn’t know how to tell them…how to tell you, I can’t even imagine what master splinter would say if he found out I got knocked out so easily and was rescued by…you.” It seemed a bit back handed the way he had phrased it, like his father wouldn’t like you, but the way he had said it was completely different. His whole demeanor had turned soft and a short walk felt like it lasted an eternity.

When you reached the boat, facing him before saying goodbye, searching for the words you knew you had to say. Leo beat you to it. “I don’t want to make anything awkward between us after tonight. I hope you know that the last couple of months have been really…special, to me. I just want to know if they’ve been special to you too.” He admitted albeit sheepishly. “Of course they have Leonardo. I don’t think I could ever be awkward around you, if anything you calm me down. Even that night when I found you out cold in the shed, I knew I should have been panicking but knowing you needed help, my help, calmed me right down. Somehow I found the strength to get you back.” You let a little laugh, feelings bubbling beneath your words. You just wondered if he felt it too.

“I’m happy to have you in my life and I knew that meant introducing you to my family eventually. I just wasn’t expecting it to be in the form of an interrogation.” You both burst out laughing at that one. Starting to see color in your peripheral vision, you knew the sun was waking up. “Leo tonight was awesome, I don’t mind that you kept your family a secret, for whatever reason. Besides I look forward to beating Mikey at Mario kart.” Chuckling uneasily, you didn’t want to say goodbye, even if you were going to see him the next night. It had become less and less easy as your feelings towards him had grown. He gave you a half smile before stepping forward, the beginnings of sunlight glinting in his eyes. Your heart rate picked up as you realized you were practically chest to chest. “I’ll see you tonight.” He breathed. You could…you wanted to, but was it the right moment? Of course it was, but you could tell he was nervous underneath. His eyes were searching every other part of your fave besides your eyes and…lips. “See you.” You whispered slowly, dragging out the moment.

That was when his eyes met your lips, his head tilted slightly, sun rays creeping dangerously up his skin. All it took was breaking down the last of your resolve and trusting your toes to carry you the rest of the way. It was a brief brushing of lips, eyes meeting before he wrapped his arm around your back, his other hand cupping your cheek. He was surprisingly warm, each kiss told you that, even with your eyes closed you could tell he was smiling. He was buzzing with such happy energy. Wrapping your arms around his head in a prom-esque kind of way, you leaned into him, soaking in all the warmth before he pulled away for air.

You could see the sun rising in the blue, but you knew he was staring at you. “I really wish I didn’t have to go right now. I wish I could stay.” Leaning his forehead on yours, his hands on your hips now. All you could do was smile up at him. “Just think of it as something to look forward to tonight.” You smirked. “Heh, I tried to tell Mikey that I wasn’t ‘cruising’ or whatever but I realized tonight I kind of was.” He flirted back, kind of. “You tell yourself that honor boy, I’m the one who found you in the shed.” You laughed before giving him a gentle push.

“See you.” He pecked your lips again before finally separating from you. “See you then.” Beaming, you stepped onto the boat, watching him jog away with a wide grin on his face. Before you knew it he was out of sight and you were doing a little victory dance.

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only-by-the-stars · 3 years

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the annotated Tome of the Wild

Part 6: Into the Wild!

- I have no regrets about torturing you all with that dream at the beginning. Not just because it was a bit cruel, but because it’s a nod to the series tradition of Link starting his adventure by oversleeping.

- Anjean is a character from Spirit Tracks. A game in which you use a train to explore New Hyrule. Which I put into the chapter that has a speeding train play a pivotal role in Link’s accidental fall into the river, without realizing it till after the chapter was up. THIS WAS HILARIOUS TO REALIZE.

- A pale yellow half-moon and a canopy of stars presided over it all THERE’S THAT MOON AGAIN

- Teba! I like that guy. In BOTW it’s established that he looks up to Revali a lot, and is trying to master his Gale; this is understandable, given that Revali was a legendary hero of the Rito, who fell tragically in battle a hundred years ago. But when he gets to meet him during AOC, he’s... less than impressed with Revali’s behavior towards Link. He still admires his skills, of course, but that hero worship has been tarnished a little by the actual personality of the Rito Champion. It’s like that old saying about how you shouldn’t meet your heroes. So for this, I wondered: what would he think of him if that “hero of legend” factor were removed and Revali was just an exceptional student who also happened to be a major jerk? And thus you get his veiled references to behavior he won’t tolerate regardless of a person’s skill level.

- Aryll put one hand on her hip and thrust her other arm into the air. “Experiment time! OH YEAH!” She giggled. “He says that every time we get to do science stuff.” Another reference to Robbie being Aryll’s teacher.

- And we have our first onscreen appearance of Riju and Medli! I’d mentioned them in passing in one of the letters in things I didn’t send, but now they’re here. I chose them to be Link and Mipha’s friends for a couple reasons. One is simply that I really like both of them; another is that they’re close in age to those two, so it was easy to make them all the same age without it being weird. Medli is one of my favorite characters in the series, and I really liked Riju a lot, especially after being able to fight as her in AOC, so I have a lot of fun bouncing them off Link and Mipha.

- “Yes, we do see.” Riju sounded like she could barely contain her glee. “Thank you, Aryll. You've just helped us solve a very irritating mystery.” And thus is Aryll inspired to play at being “Detective Aryll”, thanks to Riju’s thanking her for this. She and Medli have been just as confused as Mipha about Link’s disappearing act, and very angry, particularly on Mipha’s behalf, as they’ve seen firsthand just how hurt she is by his behavior. But now, seeing that he made a mixtape for her? That changes everything. As soon as they see it, they finally understand: he’s been acting this way not because he suddenly dislikes Mipha, but because he’s got romantic feelings for her and is unable to talk to her about them. And as I established in Mipha’s second letter in things i didn’t send, they’re also aware of her love for Link, and so they really want to get the two talking to each other so this can be sorted out at last.

- “Don't they have to be somewhere wet?” Link glanced back at where the school was getting smaller and smaller as they kept walking. “I know they need a lot of water.” Yeah, like the river you’re about to fall into very soon.

- “You're right! I almost forgot! It talked about that in a show Mom was watching last week about people who catch frogs for making medicine and stuff. Did you know some people actually like to eat them, and think they're a delicacy?” A reference to how you put them in elixirs in BOTW, as well as the Akkala Buns that Midna loves. Link’s disgust here is a callback both to that and to his refusal to eat a frog in that memory in BOTW with Zelda trying to get him to eat one for science.

- Could this night go any more downhill? It can, actually. Literally, in your case, Link. Another bit that was completely accidental and I found myself laughing about later when I realized during the editing process.

- Look. Riju and Medli absolutely want their friends to get together, and they’re more sympathetic to Link now that they know what’s behind his recent actions. But they haven’t completely forgiven him yet, and so they kinda got their revenge by fucking with him a bit when he came back for the tape. Which they did genuinely put in Mipha’s pocket as a way to try to help the two start talking to each other and confess their real feelings.

- “Just think of us as mail carriers!” Medli piped up. Also this is a reference to how the Rito delivered mail in Wind Waker.

- Link's heart skipped a beat as he saw who was standing next to it, her sweater stuffed into the elephant's head-shaped basket as she put her helmet on and climbed onto the seat. Mipha’s bike is Vah Ruta.

- Bazz and Gaddison are, of course, two Zora who were friends with Link in the Domain when he was a kid there, who along with Rivan all formed the Big Bad Bazz Brigade. So naturally, they’re his fencing team teammates.

- “Oh yeah, that fucking guy.” Gaddison rolled her eyes. “Mr. 'I'm the best at everything and don't you forget it, you chumps can't hope to keep up with me, wah wah how asinine'.” She flapped her hands in a mockery of wings, and Link had to struggle not to choke on his water. Two things here. First, I really enjoyed writing Gaddison mocking Revali and using his ‘asinine’ catchphrase. Second, Link seems to keep choking on water, doesn’t he? First when Midna reveals her favorite meal, and now again. Hmmm...

- She laughed too, but something about it sounded strangely off. There was a long pause, as if she was weighing what to say next, and then she took a deep breath. As I established in the final letter in things i didn’t send, Mipha is well aware that Link was at her practice, and is trying to find some way of asking him about it, figuring that the walk to the graveyard will be a good opportunity. She’s also been trying to hide how hurt she’s been at Link’s behavior, so that’s why her laugh sounds off: she’s startled by him acting like himself for that brief moment, but doesn’t want to let it show, so Link is unaware for now of just how deep her pain goes. He’ll find out soon enough, though. And of course, Mipha is also unaware of the tape that’s so, so close, something she later feels a lot of horror and pain over.

- “... Oh. I see.” He looked up in time to see Mipha turn her head away, an unreadable expression on her face. “I understand, of course...” This is the moment when she all but gives up on him, which shatters her heart. It’s perhaps the most agonizing missed opportunity in the whole chapter, as the tape is right there and she doesn’t know, and Link fucks up by pulling away again. He does reach for her, which might have changed things if Revali hadn’t picked that exact moment to walk in and interrupt. If not for that, Link would’ve touched her arm and started a conversation that would’ve led to a breakthrough that didn’t require a near-death experience. All these points of divergence are going to haunt them both later.

- Mipha tries to be outwardly polite, but she can’t stand Revali because of how he treats Link and never would’ve dated him. She goes to the graveyard because she wanted to try and get a reaction out of Link, even if she can’t bear to look at him for fear of what she’ll see on his face, something she feels ashamed of later, but that attempt at politeness just feeds into Link’s insecurities, unfortunately. “The love is requited, they’re just idiots”, indeed.

- To fill out the graveyard group, I chose Yunobo and Komali. As a descendant of Daruk, it stands to reason that he’d still be related to him here, and attending school with Link and the others. Plus his anxious personality makes for a perfect fit for such a scene. And Komali is another Rito from Wind Waker, who is friends with Medli, so that was another no-brainer.

- Mipha's expression was closed off and neutral as she stared down at her own hands in her lap She is trying her hardest to conceal how heartbroken and miserable she is, the poor girl.

- “Give it a rest, Revali!” Riju, sounding remarkably like her mother. I went ahead and made Urbosa Riju’s actual mom in this AU, and this is my little hint as to that.

- “Hey, what's all this ruckus, then?” bellowed a loud, croaky voice. “Buncha Poes sneaking into my graveyard? I'll show you what for!” Another reference to Poes, and though I don’t mention his name, the gravedigger is of course Dampe from OOT, MM, ALBW, and the LA remake.

- “Link, look!” She held it out as he walked over to join her. “I got a frog!” Which means you’re close to water! ... oh shit.

- Which brings us to the cliffhanger, with the reveal that Link and Aryll are drowning while the events in the Wild are happening. I was so excited for this, it’s what so much foreshadowing has been leading up to. I even stuck it in the first letter of Link’s in things i didn’t send, when he compares the effect Mipha has on him to drowning. Which is easy to mistake for yet another use of water imagery in connection with our lovely Zora princess, a recurring element in my work, but becomes more sinister when you know what befalls him here.

and that covers part six!

#annotations

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ganymedesclock · 5 years

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there's a post somewhere about how ganondorf's death is often presented almost as a holy death, deeply dignified and with appropriate silence. i think the term the person used was like a kind of anti-martyrdom, like. "a holy death, but not of something good". i'm not sure if i'm using the terminology entirely correctly, but that's something that's always hit me. like. i don't think that comes from just the general seriousness of the plot, but also that there's a quiet acknowledgement that fate

itself was against him - and the inherent tragedy of that. like. they're So Close to digging just a little further and questioning that concept of fate + supposedly inherent character weakness in the first place. this is present in oot - zelda acknowledges him as pitiful, someone who couldn't control the triforce. and in tp, zelda seems to do something like a quiet prayer. this aspect of zelda herself isn't present in wind waker (iirc), but is embodied by the king, who directly compares himself.

That’s a concept that a friend of mine talks about a lot ( @betterbemeta ) in almost those exact words but I asked her and she said she wasn’t sure of the specific post, just that she didn’t get it from someone else.

But, yeah, I feel like... there’s this interesting sort of counter-narrative within the Zelda series, I think? There’s the main narrative, which is the Legend and the Cycle and that it is Correct to perpetuate the Cycle and live out the roles people are given.

But there’s also a lot of counterpoints, of things making it clear that the Cycle is hurting people, that you will not be rewarded or kept safe for perpetuating it- and in Wind Waker this is very interesting, because, a lot of the evidence points to Ganon’s stance- “Your gods abandoned you!” being correct.

Hyrule was destroyed. Most of its people were killed. Two young people who were active servants of the god at the time were murdered and nothing protected them. Ganon comes across as someone who’d know- because he’s acting as the Divine Opponent, here.

And there’s this scene, late in Wind Waker, where he reads Tetra’s dreams with his power.

This scene sticks with me, because it’s Ganon doing something unnecessary. He’s got no reason to treat Tetra hospitably at this point. He’s got no reason to tuck her into a bed, which he does, or acknowledge that she’s a child, or wonder who she is besides Zelda.

And, yet, we have this. unexpectedly introspective soft scene, and while it’s followed by the puppet Ganon fight, the things he says there don’t seem just like villainous trash talk, but, nearly a plea for these kids to realize how messed up their situation is. They’re allegedly agents of the gods who are being chewed up by their Fates, used and cast aside, and while he has an agenda in not wanting this to happen (as their given Fate is to be parties in his execution) there’s a bleak humor Wind Waker Ganon has about the situation that, to me, has never actually been contradicted within the Zelda games. Words to the contrary ring hollow. In practice, we watch Hyrule desolated, we watch its executioners throw him on vulnerable populations (in Twilight Princess, the Sages know enough of the modern Twili to recognize Midna in her cursed form- so they had to have known the people they were leaving at the mercy of a wounded, panicked Ganon who was nonetheless fully capable of killing a person with his bare hands at that point).

In Breath of the Wild, which doesn’t even depict Ganon as a person who can argue his point (though the sequel may shed new light on that), he still nonetheless seems correct about the nature of the cycle; Zelda is unabashedly a survivor of child abuse who was forced to pray in sacred springs starting at age seven.

BotW is basically the series’ most detailed thesis yet that the Cycle broke Link and Zelda and tore pieces from them they’re not getting back. Both of them lost a century. Zelda’s passions and interests were sublimated to force her into a passive role. People they knew and were close to died. Link’s habitual silence is depicted as a product of the anxiety that the hero role pressed on him, and he was also a human shield just to guarantee that of the Champions, Zelda at least could make it, that left him critically injured.

The only real coherent defense raised by the Cycle- which is meta-wise, “justified” by Skyward Sword, which establishes it as an unholy curse- is “this is the only way to save Hyrule” which is never challenged or argued or defended. It’s merely accepted. And we keep watching young, vulnerable kids following the paths laid out by their predecessors and being torn apart by these events.

Link and Zelda don’t look like people who are protected by benevolent gods that shine over them. Repeatedly, the deities of the Zelda setting are depicted as not especially loving. In A Link To The Past, the Triforce itself says it doesn’t care about good or evil, merely that Link has proven his worth and should now make a wish. Other characters in the setting describe it as fickle or a troublemaker. In Skyward Sword, Zelda, regaining Hylia’s memories and thus the clearest potential insight into how Hylia was thinking and feeling, states that Hylia obtained a mortal incarnation basically as bait for Link, who would be driven by compassion to protect his friend, and thus get functionally conned into acting as Hylia’s champion.

I think this is why fanworks that put the chosen three on the same side make sense, because, in this way, Ganon is more a contemporary to the heroes than the King of Hyrule, who, no matter how often he dies, never really has that sense of being a martyred hero who’s lost fragments of himself. Daphnes was able to choose his own death, and the death of his kingdom, on his own terms using the Wind Waker and then the Triforce; Rhoam controls the narrative at the beginning of BotW.

Ganon?

Just from what we know about BotW’s sequel (which is not much at all) Ganon is having a bad time. In a way, his fate seems to combine elements of Link and Zelda’s- he was confined for a long time in a death match with another force (Zelda), and he was heavily and brutally injured and may have lost consciousness (Link) only to awaken in an unfamiliar future where he’s been all but forgotten (both of them).

And part of this is the need that the games seem to have, to have everything be Ganon’s fault, but to never acknowledge or explore the relationships Ganon actually, has with the various entities he ostensibly commands. I love Wind Waker, but, as friends of mine have pointed out- there’s only flimsy excuses at best for Ganon to put the various boss monsters in the environments they’re found in. They’re themed to their environments so that they seem fitting elements, rather than something foreign placed there that’s disrupted an extant order.

It leads to this sense of Ganon more as a pariah than as a true Source Of Evil. Because he’s blamed for everything, including things that don’t actually seem to further any of his stated objectives and in fact, might even work against something he is stated to want (e.g. the withering of the Deku Sprouts in Wind Waker, which are stated to be a potential way to drain the Great Sea and leave the Land Below accessible once again- the big thing Ganon wants- but they’re stated to fail because of Ganon’s magic; or him outright saying he wants the sun to shine on Hyrule when earlier in the game Daphnes accuses him of cursing the entire sea into a state of darkness because he wants everything to be dark)

Ganon’s not blameless and harmless- like. he absolutely did shit and is rarely sorry for it or sorry but not enough to stop- but, it definitely feels like his role as Hyrule’s Enemy is a degree outside of his control, much as the Hero or Princess roles are out of Link and Zelda’s. This is a game series about people being forced into roles that cause them to suffer, and then the end takeaway is I guess It Was Worth It because the Bad Man Died.

It’s this situation where the narrative tells us we are dealing with a demon man who hates everything and the only holiness or justice can come from his death, and then at the same time we’re shown a guy who is a power-hungry jerk with a large list of offscreen and frankly mystifying crimes that don’t seem to add up with anything he seems to want or value or even his sense of humor. And it ends up leaving the whole Cycle... feeling rather bleak.

#Legend of Zelda #Ganondorf #Link #Zelda #like it's this Weird Thing of I guess the cycle has to be ultimately vindicated #so we can keep making more games #but also look at all this lovely drama of how the cycle is awful and hurts everyone #but don't feel bad for Ganon who has seen this murder wheel go around multiple times in his life #faelapis #long post

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sally-mun · 4 years

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(Sorry anon, Tumblr screwed up my draft of your ask, so you’re a screenshot now.)

I hope you realize what you’ve done, because this is going to be a VERY long story. Get a drink and strap in.

Before I can get into this too deeply, we first need to talk about Ocarina of Time. There are a lot of issues I had with OoT that I was VERY excited to see were later addressed by Twilight Princess, whether it was an intentional link or not. There are a handful of things involved here, but for me the biggest one by far is the Temple of Time.

Waaaaay back in the late 90′s/early 2000′s, the internet was still relatively young and, in a way, more simple and innocent. The standard for using it largely boiled down to, “I like [x], so I’ll search for [x]” and just seeing what mess of crap you ended up with. I did this mostly with Sonic and anime stuff, but every now and then I’d do it for things like LoZ as well. One of the sites this brought me to was called The Odyssey of Hyrule, which at the time utterly blew my mind with its content. It was a hotbed of Zelda oddities, glitches (some of which I now see often in speed runs), hoax debunks, and most importantly for this discussion, screenshots from early builds of the game.

We can probably trace the origin of my fixation back to this screenshot:

Those of you that know Ocarina of Time well can probably tell right of the bat that this is not an area that appears in the final game. The website posited that this was perhaps an area behind the Temple of Time, since the setting elements all look the same and the camera appears to be in a fixed location. After all, when you look at the building from the front, there’s a clearly visible path running along the side, and it does appear that the fence has a “gate,” although we can never open it.

See it there, behind the second gossip stone from the left? There’s a gap on either side of that bit of fence, right where the path happens to be. The rest of the fence on the right side doesn’t have gaps like that, suggesting that this bit of fence wasn’t originally there and the path was once traversable; my personal hunch is that the “gate” is actually a copied instance of the smaller bit of fencing on the left to save themselves the headache of redoing the fence entirely. The gossip stones, if they were originally there at all, were probably supposed to start from the far right wall instead of the left, which would also open up access to the path.

The longer this stewed around in my brain, the more it drove me absolutely crazy, because I realized that this could possibly explain a lot of seemingly disparate elements. For example, there’s a peculiarity in the Temple of Time that’s easy to miss if you’re not taking your time and paying close attention. After you remove the Door of Time to gain access to the sword chamber, the initial view of said chamber is actually much smaller. It’s especially easy to see when you switch to first-person, because you can more easily see how close the walls are on the left and right.

(My apologies for the shitty quality of these pictures, I took them back before we had decent digital cameras. I’ll get better ones when I post this as an actual article on my other blog.)

As you run into the chamber, the tight walls abruptly disappear and give way to the massive chamber we’re all familiar with. In fact, if you take your time and walk forward through this hallway, you can easily see the moment when the room changes from small to large before your eyes.

When comparing this oddity with the beta screenshot and the website’s suggestion that the path may have allowed you to go behind the temple, I became convinced that something else was supposed to happen back there, but was cut from the game for one reason or another. My guess is that the sword chamber really was originally very small as it first appears, and the larger chamber was a separate area behind it, which was used for... well, what? It obviously wasn’t something small and simple, like a chest with a heart piece; not for a room that grand. It was clearly for something big, something important, because it had to have a large enough scale of work that the designers looked at it and realized they couldn’t finish in time. After a LOT of mulling it over, I became convinced that it was most likely the entrance to the Light Temple.

You see, something else that always struck me as odd was the fact that you’re just given the Light Medallion as soon as you become an adult. You do absolutely nothing to earn it; it’s all part of the same cut scene that plays after you remove the sword for the first time. You meet Rauru, the Light Sage, pretty abruptly as he infodumps about what’s going on, and then he just forks over the Light Medallion without hesitation.

From a narrative perspective, it sticks out to me because Rauru is the only person you do not interact with at any point in the game. You don’t meet him at all as a child, and as an adult you only see him within the Sacred Realm. All of the other sages are people you have both a child and adult connection with in some way, and it’s up to you to awaken them to their powers by ridding their respective temples of evil. Why would they just skip that process with Rauru?

Perhaps they never meant to; maybe you were supposed to go through that same process, but the Light Temple got cut. When you’re designing a video game, there’s a practice that’s recommended before you start actually building it where you make a list of all the elements you want included, then you organize it by importance, and then you cut it in half. The top half is the one you focus on first, because it’s stuff you absolutely positively have to have in the game in order for it to work. The bottom half is stuff you get to include if you have enough time, and it’s added in the order you listed it because top items are more critical. It could very well be that the Light Temple was either on that second half of the list, or it was never on the second half at all but development time simply ran out and it got bumped.

Either way, at some point in the process I think they realized they weren’t going to be able to complete the Light Temple, so they blocked off the side path and expanded the sword chamber to eat up the extra space. After all, you can see how long the building is from the outside, so it wouldn’t make much sense for it to be a reverse Tardis and be smaller on the inside. Once the back path was removed, I imagine they reworked Rauru to reduce his role; my head canon has always been that he was some kind of high priest who oversaw the Temple of Time, since it IS essentially a church. I mean, just look at that garb. He certainly appears to be some kind of holy man.

Having him as a priest at the Temple of Time that you could actually meet and talk to as a kid would’ve finally made his presence make sense. It would explain who and what he is at all, since he just kind of appears out of nowhere as the game currently stands, and it would’ve aligned with the other sages insofar as meeting them when they don’t realize their powers, then saving them as an adult and awakening them as a sage. In fact, Rauru disappearing from the Temple of Time would’ve been the game’s first big red flag that something has gone terribly wrong in the last seven years, versus having to go outside to see all the decay and the dark energy around Death Mountain. Furthermore, each sage is someone that the game explicitly positions as a person that makes sense TO be each temple’s respective sage, and to me, a priest from the Temple of Time is the obvious choice for the Light Sage when you consider that the Light Temple is probably part of the same building.

Speaking of the Temple of Time, it has a lot of clues of its own that it may have once doubled as the Light Temple. For one thing, consider the songs that warp you around the game: The Minuet of Forest takes you to the Forest Temple, the Bolero of Fire takes you to the Fire Temple, the Serenade of Water takes you to the Water Temple... but what song takes you to the Temple of Time? It’s not a song with time in the name anywhere, it’s the Prelude of Light. This would make perfect sense if the Light Temple was supposed to share space with the Temple of Time, right?

Another clue is the warp points themselves. Each time you warp to one of the temples, you land on a large pedestal bearing the Triforce. However, there’s another image overlayed on them too: That temple’s medallion. If you play the Prelude of Light to warp to the Temple of Time, the pedestal you land on features the the Light Medallion, as though this is where you were supposed to have earned it.

I later discovered that this is even more prominent in another old beta screenshot, which is much more heavy-handed with the symbol on the pedestal.

Something else to consider is the fact that the Temple of Time is actually where you acquire the Light Arrows, the final item that you need before you take on Ganon at the end. Like the medallion before it, the Light Arrows are again just given to you without requiring any work. The other temples all have a critically important item inside that you must obtain to not only finish the temple itself, but that is then needed in other areas in the game. Doesn’t it seem like you’d have to complete the Light Temple to get the Light Arrows, and they’d follow the same pattern of being used to finish the temple and then go on for further use elsewhere (namely, Ganon’s Castle)?

Getting the Light Arrows last also lends credence toward the idea that the Light Temple was in fact lower on the development list, because it would’ve necessarily been the last temple you visited in terms of game progression. They’re not going to give you the ultimate holy weapon early on in the game; they have to save that for the end so you don’t blow through the rest of the temples without a sweat! Additionally, the Light Temple being last would only increase the tension of wondering where Rauru went, since each time you warped between the past and the future you’d have to pass through the Temple of Time and note once again that Rauru is missing.

If it were me making the priority list, the temples would be listed in the same order that you play them in-game, because obviously you need to go through [dungeon 1] before you can go through [dungeon 2] or [dungeon 3].* In this particular instance, chronological order and order of importance happen to be the same thing, and if the development team used the same reasoning, then yes, the Light Temple would be much lower on the list than the others. It’s entirely within reason to think that they had planned for it, but realized they weren’t going to have time to fully implement it, and instead blocked it off and handed over the items you would’ve obtained there so they could focus on getting other, more critical things done.

It’s also worth noting just how much infodumping happens at the Temple of Time. As the game currently stands, there’s very little to actually do at the ToT, but there are many long conversations that take place there. You talk to Zelda, both as herself and as Sheik, you talk to Rauru (as that technically happens while you’re at the ToT), and even Ganon monologues a bit there at the end. You end up spending a LOT of time spent standing around while other characters pelt you with information in this particular location. I’m not saying that there shouldn’t have been any big conversations here, but rather that I feel like there are more than there probably should’ve been. Some (possibly most) of that information could’ve been obtained more gradually and actively if the Light Temple had managed to be a thing.

And look, I’m not saying that what we ultimately got in the game doesn’t work; there’s nothing specifically wrong with the way Ocarina of Time handles the Temple of Time. I agree that getting the Light Medallion and Light Arrows in the ToT isn’t completely out of nowhere since the ToT is connected to the Sacred Realm. I’m only saying it doesn’t come across as the original design to me; as far as I’m concerned, it clearly, obviously screams that what we got was a back-up plan. It works just enough to make sense, but it would work so much better if they did it this other way. Everything just clicks together a little more snugly when you consider that there may have been a sixth temple. It’s not that what we got doesn’t make sense, it’s just that I believe these ideas make more sense.

This topic is something I used to go on and on about back in the day, to pretty much anyone who would listen to me. I was met with about as many different kinds of feedback as you can imagine; some people agreed that I was on to something and had maybe solved a mystery, whereas others thought I was reading way too much into details that just don’t have that deep of a meaning. Unfortunately, it’s obviously not something I could take that far in an argument because there was no way to prove my hypothesis. It’s all just a guess, and even though I think there’s some pretty strong evidence to back it up, in the end I have no way to actually verify it. Sure I could contact Nintendo, but I highly doubt they’d tell me anything one way or the other.

SO NEEDLESS TO SAY when Twilight Princess eventually came along and had a Temple of Time that was a for-realsies playable dungeon with monsters and puzzles and items to collect, I went through the fucking roof.

At the EXACT moment that I realized that this is what the game was giving me, I literally screamed and shouted and cheered because I felt so... vindicated, in a way? It felt very strongly like a soft confirmation of what I’d been saying for all these years -- ESPECIALLY since the Twilight!ToT ALSO makes heavy use of the Light Medallion symbol. I feel like that’s about as clear of a connection as you can get.

Like, I know the Temple of Time being playable in Twilight Princess doesn’t absolutely confirm that it was supposed to be that way in Ocarina of Time, but it gives me that vibe because it feels like Twilight makes a point to ‘right’ a lot of ‘wrongs’ present in Ocarina. It gives me the sense that they were making up for some of the things they didn’t (or couldn’t) do the first time around. The fact that they were willing to delay the release of Twilight Princess just to make sure everything was just right also gives me that vibe. They could’ve just cut things again, but this time, they wanted to make sure everything was there, and that it was good.

One other thing I’d like to mention before completely moving on from this topic is something that I admittedly can’t confirm, but it’s another point that’s been on my mind: Back when I was playing Twilight Princess for the first time and I was screaming about the Temple of Time, a guy I knew back then mentioned to me that the ToT that we see in Twilight is, canonically, the same ToT that we see in Ocarina. He said that he’d heard somewhere that the Ocarina world map actually fit perfectly when overlayed against the Twilight world map, and the major world features/locations from Ocarina of Time lined up exactly with landmarks and ruins in the Twilight Princess world. I did attempt to look this up for myself before writing this post, but most of what I found was a big mess; I may attempt to line the maps up myself sometime if just to be able to better wrap my brain around what might (or might not) work here. What I can definitely say, though, is that the idea is at least supported by the theme of the series in general, given that it’s based around the notion of history repeating itself. Zelda games reference other Zelda games all the time, so it’s far from unheard of.

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier the Light Temple isn’t the only thing that makes me feel like Twilight Princess is trying to make amends for things that were missed in Ocarina of Time; it just happens to be the one I was most prominently fixated on. Another big thing that Twilight Princess appears to be rectifying is the City in the Sky. Going back again to my old stomping ground The Odyssey of Hyrule, there was another beta screenshot that got a LOT of attention back in the day, because it 1) was an animated gif, 2) involves the Triforce, and 3) appears to be some kind of ‘Sky Temple,’ as it was known.

(Once upon a time that gif was reasonably sized, but since computers have roided the fuck out since the days of Windows 95, I realize it’s not the biggest or clearest thing in the world and I apologize.)

As I recall there were a couple of other screenshots that appeared to also be from this alleged Sky Temple, but sadly I don’t seem to have any of them myself, and although The Odyssey of Hyrule technically still exists, it looks like its images are all broken. In any case, the question of whether or not Ocarina of Time was supposed to have a sky temple was a HUUUUGE hot topic among Zelda sites for years. So many people spent enormous amounts of time and energy trying to find the so-called Sky Temple, largely because there was a sizable sect of the fanbase convinced that the Triforce HAD to be hidden somewhere in the game. Amazingly enough someone did eventually find the Triforce obscenely hidden in the game files (I wish I still had the pics of that, the amount of glitching needed to get to it was insane), but nothing was ever ultimately discovered about the Sky Temple. It just became one of those bits of gaming folklore that got passed around from person to person over time.

Which, of course, is why the inclusion of the City in the Sky in Twilight Princess, much like the expansion of the Temple of Time, feels a lot like Nintendo is making up for something they may have intended to do but were unable to complete.

Not gonna lie, when I played this area for the first time I couldn’t help thinking that the small glimpse in the gif above feels like it could feasibly fit in here, and it was just the coolest feeling of, “I knew it!”

Another thing that really bugged me about Ocarina of Time (and in fact still does to this day) is the fact that, even after you beat the Water Temple, Zora’s Domain remains frozen. I never understood how this could be, since every other area reverts back to its original, beautiful form after you defeat the evil in the associated temple. Not Zora’s Domain, though! It’s thoroughly unsatisfying to have gone through what is arguably the most hated temple in the game and not have a full reward for your efforts.

This, again, is something it seems Twilight apologizes for; not only does it actually replicate the original problem of the Zoras getting frozen, but IN THIS ONE YOU ACTUALLY THAW THEM OUT!! And not only that, you thaw them BEFORE you even do the temple! That alone feels like Nintendo practically coming out and saying, “Yeah, we messed up, our bad. Here, have the restored Zoras right away as our apology.” It was such a huge mental release to see that ice melt and the Zoras come back to life! My brain was finally able to let go of a frustration I’d had for years!

My last one isn’t so much something that I felt was supposed to be in Ocarina of Time, but rather something I just plain wanted to be there. I was always sad that, even though you do technically get to enter Hyrule Castle, you don’t really get to go in there. You get an extremely limited and very linear track to follow, and at best you just get glimpses of some of the other areas that probably would’ve been really cool to explore had the game been designed that way.

I always felt like the fact that you didn’t get any real exploration of Hyrule Castle upset some of the balance in the game, considering that you do have to fully traverse Ganon’s Castle as a solvable dungeon. Being able to get a thorough sense of what Hyrule Castle was originally like before evil fell would help reinforce just how much things had changed in the seven years that Link was in the Sacred Realm, especially since that contrast is such a strong theme everywhere else in the game.

So, much like my reaction when I realized I was actually entering the Temple of Time as a level, I had a very similar reaction when I realized I was getting Hyrule Castle in the same way.

I may not have freaked out quite as much, but DAMN if that wasn’t another enormous payoff for me! Getting to really look around inside of Hyrule Castle, and furthermore in a version that’s really able to convey the scale and grandness OF a castle, was an absolutely magical moment of overdue gratification.

What’s even better is that Twilight Princess almost gives you a sort of a fake-out in this regard, since at the very beginning you kind of go through Hyrule Castle but, like Ocarina of Time, it’s extremely limited and linear, so it seems at first like they’re going to do the same thing.

I remember playing this for the first time and thinking, “Well, at least I’ve gotten a little closer to seeing inside of Hyrule Castle, but I really wish they’d just friggin’ let us ACTUALLY go in.” IMAGINE MY CHAGRIN when later on that’s exactly what I ended up doing~ I’m sitting there fan-screaming and the game is going “AH HA I GOTCHA!!”

Soooooo yeah... This ended up being an extremely long post and probably way more than you were ever interested in knowing, but, yeah, I think that’s why Twilight Princess felt like such a bookend for me. Even though I did technically have the original LoZ as a child, my life as a Zelda fan really began with Ocarina of Time, and that game left me longing for several very specific things that Twilight Princess later fulfilled. I’ve never had so many large unresolved issues with any other game, and the fact that Ocarina of Time was the Zelda game that I ‘imprinted’ on, those issues left a very deep impression on me. Having Twilight Princess essentially go back and ‘fix’ those things was incredibly psychologically calming for me, and I think it’s a major reason why I haven’t particularly sought out other Zelda games in the last 12 years. Twilight Princess gave me the things I’d been looking for since 1998 -- a decade of hemming and hawing finally resolved.

I honestly feel like playing Zelda games may be different for me in some way now as I move forward, because I won’t have a part of my brain mentally searching for a way to fill those little voids in the back of my head. I have both Skyward Sword and Breath of the Wild, which as I said in that other post I’ve actually never tried out, so I guess we’ll find out how I relate to them whenever I finally decide to take that leap!

If you actually made it to the end of this post, THANK YOU SO MUCH and I hope you enjoyed it~

*Fun fact, this isn’t necessarily true when it comes to the Fire and Water Temples. The game wants you to do Fire first, but it’s completely possible to do the Water Temple if you want to!

#I TOLD YOU THIS WAS GOING TO BE A BIG ONE #Legend of Zelda #Ocarina of Time #Twilight Princess #anonymous

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fibrielsolaer · 4 years

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Majora’s Mask (N64)

Hello people of Tumblr! Let’s talk about the most divisive Zelda game.

James Rolfe semi-reviewed Majora’s Mask as part of Angry Video Game Nerd, tying the game’s themes into both a Twilight Zone reference (as per masks) and the New Year ball drop (as per moonfall):

youtube

I DIDN’T LIKE WUT HE SAID HARUMPH. >:o[

The Nerd is, of course, a fictional character that James has to put on an act for, and I’ve found that this act is much more obvious and stiff than usual. The Nerd normally tries to balance criticism with praise, but the transition in this one comes across as especially jarring and abrupt.

(OOTA = Ocarina of Time Also = James / The Nerd complains about something that applies to OoT also, or doesn’t notice / appreciate something that he ought to as an OoT veteran)

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Graphics

For some strange reason, The Nerd begins by complaining about the graphics - possibly a reference to the Game Grumps playthrough of Majora’s Mask. Arin Hanson did not wait 5 seconds before blurting out “THIS GAME LOOKS LIKE SHIT“ in a tone that made it obvious he was simply trying to stir drama.

OOTA: Despite pointing out that Majora’s Mask reuses the engine and some other assets, James / the Nerd doesn’t include or compare to OoT while criticizing the derived graphics of Majora’s Mask.

Of course, Majora’s Mask is designed to take advantage of the N64′s surreal, creepy graphics and create a disturbing, uncanny world. I would say that “bad graphics” tend to work in the favor of such games, if handled properly. Just look at Puppet Combo.

One must keep in mind, and James would absolutely be familiar with this, that older games up to around the GameCube era were still played on CRT televisions. The color choices and jagged edges of the N64 were less obvious due to the color balancing and blurriness of these old TVs. As such, today’s better monitors actually make these particular games look worse.

While the console overall has definitely not aged well visually, Majora’s Mask is one of the most graphically intensive games on the N64. If I recall correctly, the scene where the Woodfall Temple rises from the swamp is the most graphically demanding scene in any N64 game.

The Nerd asserts that, in contrast to early 3D, certain 2D styles such as Link to the Past still look good by today’s standards. This is never going to be an objective statement - not only because of the strong bias most people have in favor of or against particular graphical media, but also due to the high emotional investment longtime Zelda players have in both LttP and OoT, which tend to jockey for the title of Best Zelda. (Link’s Awakening is usually a close third place.)

I personally find LttP’s color palette appealing, but many sprites are incoherent or anatomically malformed, and its Escher-esque viewing angle with every wall slanting away from you is absurd. This is underscored in A Link Between Worlds, which is in full 3D but copies the viewing angle by hilariously tilting everything.

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Cosmic Checkpoints

The central criticism of Majora’s Mask, which the Nerd for some strange reason prioritizes after the graphics, has always been an example of Time Limit Syndrome.

Time Limit Syndrome is the phenomenon where perceiving a time limit will make many players freak out and possibly make them quit playing the game permanently. This is true even if the time limit turns out to do absolutely nothing when it expires. After all, they don’t know that ahead of time.

I usually hear complaints about Majora’s Mask’s time system from people who quit within 5 minutes due to Time Limit Syndrome... but James / The Nerd has beaten the final boss and really ought to know better.

As James / The Nerd implies, Majora’s Mask does not expect you to beat the game within a single three-day cycle. Indeed, you are forced to “fail” the first cycle in order to teach you the underlying mechanic of resetting the clock and instill in you the idea that you do not have to “beat the time limit”.

Majora’s Mask runs on a cosmic checkpoint system.

At any millisecond you can simply play the Song of Time to return to the Dawn of the First Day and keep every “checkpoint” you’ve met up to that point; “checkpoints” are things like acquired items and learned Songs.

For instance, as soon as you have the Sonata of Awakening, you can enter the Woodfall Temple. You can and should smack the Owl Statue closest to that temple, then immediately reset to a new cycle and enter the temple fresh on the First Day, skipping the long-ass Metal Gear Solid segment you did to get that song.

The Nerd’s implication that you’re “losing progress” when you use the Song of Time thus makes no sense. It’s not any different than leaving a room in a dungeon and seeing that the puzzle in it has reset when you come back in. You don’t need to do that puzzle again if you already got the key item you get for completing it, thus you have not lost any progress. The proper term is replay value, since you have the option at any point of doing any part of the game over again, with any power-ups or self-prescribed inhibitions you like, without starting a new game. Why criticize Majora’s Mask for the #1 reason people love Super Mario World?

When you use the Song of Time to return to the Dawn of the First Day, you save the game. This is the only way to make a “permanent” save in the N64 version of the game (as compared to the 3DS remake); the other methods let you make a temporary save if you’re interrupted or have something else to do, which is deleted when you load it back up.

If you do let the timer run out by itself, then you get an amazingly horrific game over scene (as featured in the above video), and your current 3-day cycle is lost as you must reload the previous First Day save. The reason the N64 game will not let you override your permanent save mid-cycle is, undoubtedly, so that you do not somehow save a scenario where you will repeatedly game over without any chance to use the Song of Time (however unlikely that may be.) In addition, you can always count on your hard saves being at the start of everybody’s schedule, and you will not need to remember where in the middle of some convoluted three-day quest you were.

Personally, I would have made it so that the timer running out just forced the Song of Time effect. The only “good reason” I can think of to do otherwise is because Majora’s Mask is a very unsettling game and the anxiety of Time Limit Syndrome may actually be intentional as part of the mood... but I would prioritize consistent and intuitive gameplay over an inconsistent and unpredictable audience response.

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Time & Dungeons

Majora’s Mask does have a few frustrating consequences of its time system.

Minor annoyances include quests and rewards that only trigger at a very specific time (ghosts at night, The Other Link, etc.)

Moderate annoyances include quests that are not only that specific, but you have to trigger them first by doing something else specific at an earlier time, or intentionally fail another quest. (the Kafei & Anju quests that are not the Couple’s Mask quest)

Major annoyances include questlines that take place over all three days and which you have to completely restart if you mess up at any step and which sometimes have more than one ending (Couple’s Mask quest)

... but the dungeons semi-resetting is not a problem.

You should be smart and warp back as soon as you can access the dungeon, so that you can enter it at the very start of a new cycle. All you need is the Song that opens it and the Owl Statue closest to it (usually right in front of the dungeon entrance.)

Half of the dungeon is only there to block off the dungeon item. Once you get that, if you need to reset, you can skip half the dungeon next time because you’ve already got the dungeon item. You only need to get the Big Key and go fight the boss.

If you’ve ever challenged the boss, even if you had to quit the fight and reset, you can skip the entire dungeon and teleport right to the boss again on all subsequent cycles. (The boss will also call you out for holding its remains, if applicable.)

You only need to gather the fairies once per dungeon, since you keep all of the unlocked items across cycles.

It’s really quite forgiving except that it does not make it overt exactly where your checkpoints are. In fact, before James made this video and I looked it up, I didn’t know for the last 15+ years that merely challenging the boss let you skip the dungeon on subsequent cycles.

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But Why Tho

The entire 3-day nonsense is a necessity because of the illusion of life.

Similarly to Harvest Moon, major NPCs are scheduled to be in particular places at particular times of the three days. However, unlike Harvest Moon, this schedule is extremely specific for applicable characters. If you slow down time with the Inverted Song of Time, you will actually see these affected NPCs moving proportionately more slowly, because even their path from one place to another, and their exact departure and arrival times, are aligned to the time schedule. Doing certain things will also alter NPC schedules accordingly.

This, of course, helps deepen the characters and make them look more life-like in a game that is all about exploring them emotionally and learning about their fears, hardships, and heartbreaks. Link earns every single Mask in the game by healing somebody, even if he does not use the Song of Healing per se. If he gets every single last one, then he has the ultimate power of love and kindness that off-handedly obliterates the malice and hatred of Majora.

This level of detail would not be feasible, or at least not very intuitive, with a very long schedule, so the game takes place over the same three days repeated indefinitely.

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Comparisons

The Nerd compares Majora’s Mask to Breath of the Wild in other places in the video, but does not do so when it would not be favorable to the latter; specifically, his criticism of the Majora’s Mask banker and his/her talkiness applies ten times over to the Great Fairies in Breath of the Wild, who not only give their entire explanation of how they work every time you leave and return to them again, but also forcibly close the upgrade window when you run out of items you have materials for, without letting you look them over to see what you need to farm for.

You need to use the BotW Great Fairies all the time, but you only need to use the MM bank rarely. You can just deposit money into it once per cycle and ignore it otherwise, since you refill your ammo just by cutting bushes and never need to purchase any... unlike Breath of the Wild.

To deposit or withdraw all your Rupees at once, just enter 999 as the number. It will change it to however many you actually have. The reason you’ve given 5 Rupees in hand is (probably) because otherwise you might lose them when you had 995 or more Rupees in the bank, if indeed you can stand to grind Rupees for that long.

OOTA: The banker is the Termina counterpart of OoT’s beggar, and reuses the animation.

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Around this point, the “sequence breaking” in the editing becomes apparent. Like a videogamedunkey skit, random bits of the game are strewn into the video out of order.

This comes back to bite the review because the Nerd acts like he’s just gotten to a part of the game that has to be completed before what was shown earlier in the video (hence why I call it “sequence breaking”). This breaks the illusion of sincerity; the suspension of disbelief as to the video being scripted is lost and it starts to look a bit more doctored to color the perception of the game.

OOTA: The Nerd does not recognize obvious counterparts to or parodies of characters like the Organ Grinder / Guru Guru, and acts like he’s never encountered an N64 ReDead before.

OOTA: The swim sound is the same sound as in Ocarina of Time. Talk about fishing for complaints.

I disagree harshly with the statement that “all everybody talks about [in regards to Majora’s Mask] are the good things”. I’ve almost only ever heard people complain about the time system and how it’s “Not Really Zelda”.

The particular glitch shown - Zora Link rapidly colliding with the wall - must be intentionally invoked. That glitch occurs if you use the speed-swim against very specific spots of very specific walls... fittingly, any of the corners in the infamous whirlpool room work. All you have to do is let go of the buttons and it will stop. It’s kind of like sailing Mario under the log with a Green Shell in Lethal Lava Land, except Mario always dies (in the most hilarious way) when you do that and Link is only briefly inconvenienced (in the most hilarious way).

OOTA: Most of Majora’s Mask’s more common glitches are the same as in Ocarina of Time due to reusing the engine. Infinite Sword Glitch and Bombchu Hover are both still around, for instance.

The one glitch that is the most problematic is that sometimes, when you reset in the middle of a dungeon, the doors will lock but the Small Keys will not go back into their chests. You then have to keep resetting until it resets correctly, which should be the very next reset.

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Wart / Arrghus

Majora’s Mask may be the only Zelda game with two minibosses in every dungeon - one for the dungeon item, one for the Big Key.

That eyeball boss is Wart, the first of the two Great Bay Temple minibosses, who guards the Ice Arrows. It’s Arrghus from Link to the Past, who was always called ワート WART in Japanese. In the 3DS version, its name in several other languages is the same as Arrghus’s.

Wart is the most annoying enemy in the entire game. He’s a fucker and I hate him. The worst thing about Wart is that the only way to make his long-ass battle faster is to completely destroy your N64. You do this by shooting an arrow into his eye when it’s open, causing every single mini-eyeball to fall off of him, dropping your frame rate into the gutter. (It gets even worse when you start hitting them with the sword.)

You fight Wart again in the Secret Temple (which is basically a boss gauntlet.)

Fuck Wart.

And fuck the second Great Bay miniboss, the gecko in the blob.

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Bits and Bobs

Sometimes the game’s camera cuts (such as when night falls and the game pauses to announce it) interrupt the gameplay. I don’t remember whether the camera angle you had before the cut effects the camera angle after the cut.

While not strictly required, the Bunny Hood literally only makes you run much faster, and makes the skeleton captain sequence (and 90% of the game) much easier. Always use the Bunny Hood when you don’t need any other mask.

OOTA: You should always be tapping the Lens of Truth on and off to use way less magic. (Basically zero, if you tap it rapidly enough.)

The Goron Race is one of the most frustrating parts of the game, and you need to complete it by the 2nd Day or else you can’t get the Gilded Sword. To get the most amount of time possible to complete it:

Confront Ghot at least once

Save a lot of Rupees in the bank

Get the Powder Keg certification

Start a new cycle

Buy a Powder Keg

Use Fire Arrow to ready forge and turn in sword for Razor Sword

Defeat Ghot (necessary for races to start)

Use bought Powder Keg to blow up boulder (shoot it with an arrow to detonate it)

Complete race as soon as possible for Gold Dust

Get Razor Sword

Turn Razor Sword right back in

Get Gilded Sword

Nintendo has never had good control sticks; the N64 and the Joycon alike both have shitty sticks that experience drift or misalign after a few months of use. This is probably why James is unable to roll Goron Link straight forward, or stay on the pipes, despite the N64′s analog stick locking into an octagon to ensure the 8 main directions are easy to hit.

You have to hit the trees with the Hookhot, but the stupid turtle wobbles around, so the trees are hard to hit. I’m not sure how the game determines whether the Hookshot connected or not. Is it checked on fire? Is it checked on arrival? No idea.

The reason the Ice Arrows are not working is because James is shooting too close to the wall. The ice platform would then clip through it. The game could move the platform to be further from the wall but decides to just not form any platform at all. I remember being pretty pissed off with it myself.

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Video ending

The Nerd doesn’t have to do the entire dungeon over again, because he already has the Ice Arrows. He only has to get to and fight that stupid blob gecko again for the Big Key and then get back to the boss.

OOTA: Why would you walk into the giant exit light before you got the Heart Container. Hell, so far as I know, this is Every Zelda Game Also since all of them let you forget to pick up the Heart Container...

Majora’s a bastard. If you get every mask in the game and turn them all in to him, he will for some unfathomable reason give you the Fierce Deity Mask and let you completely whoop his ass with it. The Fierce Deity Mask makes the battle into an utter joke. In the N64 version you can only use it in boss rooms, unless you use a glitch. The 3DS version also lets you use it when fishing (which itself is not in the N64 version.)

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In summary

Majora’s Mask is definitely beloved more for its themes and characters than for its gameplay. It has some of the most beautiful music in all of Zelda, most notably the Song of Healing, and its advanced special effects and cinematography are top-tier by the standards of the N64. It is chock-full of bittersweet, heavy-hitting content and is a major source of inspiration for future "serious subject” indie games and creepypastas - not just BEN DROWNED and Spooky’s Jumpscare Mansion, but in general.

The gameplay is, for the most part, a weird Ocarina of Time mod. The mask forms play differently, and there are extra mechanics introduced by some songs such as the Elegy of Emptiness, but overall you solve puzzles and fight battles with the same “strategy” as in OoT.

MM has always been very divisive because of the time system, which the game does not adequately explain to most players, and which is particularly frustrating in regards to specific parts of the game such as the Gilded Sword or the Couple’s Mask quest. The Bomber’s Notebook helps keep track of some aspects (and is expanded in the 3DS version), but many players simply find the detailed scheduling and the sequence of events too much crap to keep track of and too many repeated chores in the event of failures and many resets, and do not develop a recognition - let alone appreciation - of when they have reached a checkpoint in the main game and can reset to a new cycle without losing anything, or how to gauge whether they have the time left to take on a new task whimsically rather than through planning.

When I first started playing I hated it, but over time I began to be okay with the structure around the time cycle, albeit a bit bored or frustrated when I had to repeat day 1+2 because I screwed up a quest on day 3.

There are so many cool moments in Majora’s Mask that, for me at least, it supercedes the frustrating parts of the quests that cover all 3 days, and some of the just plain annoying parts that are not strictly relevant to the time system.

How the dogs react to each form of Link

Any time you use the Song of Healing

Mummy-Dad and the Well

When you realize who the Skull Kid is

When you realize what happened to the Butler’s son

The full ending with 100% completion

I’ve often said that Earthbound is “a lousy game but a great experience”.

I suppose it’s not out of the park to say Majora’s Mask is in the same boat.

#zelda #majora's mask #legend of zelda #loz #lozmm #loz majora's mask #avgn #angry video game nerd

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kaialone · 7 years

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I’m gonna ramble about Ganon(dorf) for a bit

Proceed if you’re interested (I wrote a lot)

Okay so I don’t even know how to start this, I’ll just go.

(note that I’ll mention the timeline in this, please dont think that I dont know that the timeline could be changed at any moment should nintendo feel ike it, I just like semi-going by currently established canon. Also please note that I got no problem with people who dont feel like following the timeline for any reason, to each their own.)

I kinda really like the fact that Ganondorf is said to be a reincarnation of Demise, because, idk, somehow the idea of powerful demons needing to reincarnate into human form for some reason, and then once they have this form and live that life they start having human feelings and emotions and start struggling with what they want to be and maybe end up becoming good guys, is just somethign I really enjoy.

(If that sounds weirdly specific, Great Demon King Piccolo from Dragonball is one character with that kinda arc that I love.)

And then of course, one of the most interesting things about Ganondorf, imo, is how in the three different timeline branches, you got one incarnation of Ganondorf who turns out very different in each branch.

Something I always like is to just kinda, look at the different “last words” Ganondorf has in each timeline branch, and what they really mean for each of them:

"The wind... it is... blowing."

“I am the Evil King, Ganon...”

“The history of light and shadow will be written in blood!”

(though this gets a bit muddled in the Downfall Timeline, as technically Ganon died in ALttP, but was revived in OoX,´, which I see as his true death for now, but then again we dunno if any Ganons after that where him revived or reborn so *shrug*)

But first we should talk about the guy that “grows up” to be these other three.

I mean, personally I think no matter how you look at it, OoT!Ganondorf did lots of bad stuff, and wasnt a good ruler to the Gerudo (I dont mind different interpretations at all though), but I do think his initial intentions were good like we hear him talk about in WW, but lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

OoT!Ganondorf doesn’t really end up helping the Gerudo once he actually takes over Hyrule (all the Gerudo are still over in the desert, cept for maybe Iron Knuckles) and its heavily implied all the Gerudo were brainwashed to some extent (The carpenters note that the Gerudo seem nicer, post-Twinrova’s defeat), and Nabooru, who was very respected among the Gerudo, was explicitly against Ganondorf, but then brainwashed into submission.

Like even if you think Twinrova did all that without him knowing, not noticing your parents brainwashing your people doesnt exactly make you a good leader.

Adding to that, if A Link to the Past’s backstory is to be believed (and the timeline is not said to split until Link falls in the final battle) then, Ganondorf entered the hiding place of the Triforce alongside fellow thieves of his, and ended up killing them all so he could have the Triforce for himself.

Buuut before you think I’m just gonna talk about how bad OoT!Ganondorf is, like, I still think he genuinely wanted to help his people (at first) and that everything WW!Ganondorf says does represent his true feelings, and that at some point, he just really wanted to do something good.

I think its interesting to think about why that presumably changed for a while, wether you think its the usual getting mad with power, getting to close to the “dark side” or whatever with all the dark magic going on, or being groomed into this role by Twinrova, or all of that, or something else entirely.

I mean, he definitely did some bad stuff before that too, but in the context of Ganondorf being a reincarnation of Demise, I wonder if it could be possible that either seeing Link and/or Zelda or laying eyes on the Triforce ended up having some effect on him, like awakening some part of Demise within him so to speak, contributing to him losing sight of his initial goals and getting more about power in general.

Notably post timeskip Ganondorf seems to use a lot more monsters/dmemons to do his bidding than before, but this could easily just be the difficulty spike for the player.

Idk if this sounds cheap to people somehow, but I remember a popular theory being that the Triforce of Power turned him evil so, its not that different imo.

Of course, in the final battle we see OoT!Ganondorf become Ganon, presumably for the very first time, but honestly? The transformation itself isn’t that important to me, as it just feels like a visual representation of the downfall Ganondorf had undergone already anyway.

And then, when he is defeated, he infamously curses Link, and ZELDA, and THE SAGES, vowing to kill their descendants once he breaks free from the seal and all...

...which leads into who is everyone’s favorite Ganondorf, and rightfully so, WW!Ganondorf.

Before going into the present day of WW, there is its backstory, which is very interesting to me, cause you just gotta think, how do we go from a guy like OoT!Ganon to WW!Ganon?

At some point after OoT but before WW, Ganondorf’s threat became reality, he broke out of the seal and tried taking over Hyrule once more.

But I cant help but wonder how it mustve felt for him. I picture him for years, decades, centuries maybe, sealed away, picturing his revenge, imagining how great it’ll feel to get free and eradicate the descendants of Link and Zelda, and finally making Hyrule his.

But when he was freed, he likely found a Hyrule that was different from how he remembered it. Notably, there would be no hero, nor descendants of his for him to exact revenge upon. And while we know that a princess seems to have had existed at the time, who knows if she was “a Zelda”, if you wanna call them that.

I just imagine it wouldve felt a lot less satisfying that he imagined, heck, probably wouldve felt more like he was robbed if his chance to take revenge.

And who knows what even happened to the Gerudo by that point? I know lack of them in Wind Waker doesnt mean they are extinct, but for all we know they couldve left hyrule altogether? (Like they seem to have done between OoT and TP, and mightve done post OoT in the Downfall timeline, if you dont think they went extinct)

Overall I could see what Ganondorf mightve pictured/wanted to be his most glorious moment, his long awaited return, mightve just ended up feeling kinda empty.

Not that I think he wouldve done a complete 180 already because of that, but I could see it leaving him in a bit of a shock.

Adding to that, now just as he is about to conquer Hyrule for real, the gods decide to destroy it, essentially. Or at least, thats how Ganondorf felt about the situation, given how he speaks of it in the game. Its like the gods are playing with him, everytime Hyrule is just within his graps, they take it from him.

The flood mustve felt especially terrible for him, cause the way he saw it, it mustve been something like the goddesses saying “we’d rather just end hyrule and kill all its people than have you be its ruler”. What a slap in the face, to put it lightly.

After that, getting sealed away again, and all the stuff I mentioned above, probably gave him time and opportunity to reflect upon his life so far, and the future too.

I dont think that in WW, Ganondorf was just “going through the motions”, and just trying to finish what he started because he had no choice at this point. I do think he still genuinely wanted to try and conquer Hyrule, its just that he has had some time to think about it, a bit more about why he wanted it, and about what he did wrong before, and regretting those mistakes.

Like for example, he really doesnt seem like he wants to harm Link and Zelda anymore, if he can help it. He could be hating them, still furious for what happened during OoT, but he doesnt seem to be.

One of these days I wanna talk about all the contrasts and parallels WW seems to draw to Zelda games that came before it, especially OoT, but for this bit I just wanna mention this one thing.

How in OoT you confront Ganondorf, who smugly plays his leitmotif on the organ, the sound of which growing louder the further you approach his chamber. His back pointed at the entrance which he knows the hero will emerge from. Zelda, encase in a crytal, hangs above him like a trophy, like the hero bait she is to him at this point.

And then in WW, his leitmotif plays in his final dungeon, but actually grow more quiet the closer you get to him. That already makes you feel like, while it invokes OoTs atmoosphere, it actually turns it on its head. And then, when you do cofront him, “Zelda” is instead peacefully sleeping in a bed, (presumably Ganondorfs bed?) with him calmly sitting by her side, watching over her. He doesn’t face Link directly as he enters, but isnt completely turned away from his either.

Of course this scene still has some creepy atmosphere to it, especially when he starts reading her mind, but maaaan, the contrast to OoT (and games that came before it) just GETS ME everytime I just think about it.

Ahhh, I could go on and on like, you all know this stuff, you all thought about him in this game so much, didnt you?

I really hope nintendo will choose to give another Ganondorf this kinda depth, and maybe even just play with the idea of Ganondorf taking on a different role than “final boss” in a Zelda title. I would love that.

Now, let’s turn the clock wayyy back to when Ganon fought Link, and talk about the timeline that occurs when Link is actually killed by him.

To me, this is kinda of the “original” timeline, for various reasons, but I don’t wanna distract from our main man here too long.

In this version of the events, Ganon manages to actually aquire the full Triforce in the final battle of OoT, and causes quite a bit of misery before the Sages finally manage to seal him away in this version, too. But because he is so powerful with the Triforce and all that, it ends up costing a lot more lives to finally get to that point.

Now from that point on, this Ganon seems to just kinda rule the Dark World, a twisted “evil” version of Hyrule of his own creation. And of course most notably, either because of this worlds properties, or his general state of being, this Ganon seemingly always stays in beast form from that point on.

Sadly this one doesnt talk too much (though he is very much capable of doing so), so we dont get much of a grasp on his character.

To me, ALttP!Ganon feels like somewhere in the middle when it comes to Ganons. Despite his bestial appearance, he doesnt seem as blind with power and rage as TP!Ganondorf, maybe cause he doesnt call himself a god or something. But he of course is nowhere near WW!Ganondorf in terms of reasons and having reflecting upon his past.

Either way, it is clear that he is not happy with just ruling his very own personal Hyrule, filled with damned people that have become monsters like him, as in ALttP he does attempt to break his seal and go back to the World of Light

This might just be out of greed, but you could also imagine he might simply be unhappy in this demonic world, or even scared? Given how we see that some inhabitants of this land lose their humanity to such an extent that they’re turning into things like trees, maybe even completely losing their sense of self?

One of the more curious things about ALttP!Ganon is his relationship to Agahnim. No one is entirely sure what they are to one another.

In some of the mangas, Agahnim is portrayed as a human who gets possessed or turned by Ganon in some shape or form, and this portrayal is popular from what I’ve seen.

But in the actual game, Agahnim is described as being Ganon’s alter-ego. The term used in the japanese version is “bunshin”, which can mean a lot of things, including alter-ego or even reincarnation, but in the context of the Zelda franchise, there is another part in the series where it is used. In Phantom Hourglass, Oshus is described as being the “bunshin” of the Ocean King. So, if we assume Agahnim works the same way, his consiusness would have to be exactly Ganon’s, right? Of course that doesn’t mean other interpretations can’t exist, I myself am not even sure what to think.

The usage of the word bunshin does imply that to some extent, Agahnim literally was a part, or offshot of Ganon. So froma certain point of view, we could add his character to Ganons, if we wanted to.

Something that intrigues me though is that in the Downfall Timeline, we never see Ganon in human form again. Could this be related to Agahnim? Maybe not exactly literally but symbolIcally?

Did Ganon split the humanity he had left off of himself, because that was the only part of him that could exit the Dark World before the seal was lifted?

If so, did Agahnim dying have any effect on him? Or did whatever Agahnim was in the end just return to him?

So much to think about here, ahh.

Of cours, ALttP!Ganon then gets killed by Link in their battle. Not sealed away, just flat out killed.

Normally this would probably be the end, but of course OoX happened, in which Twinrova tried to revive him, but didnt quite succeed.

Ganon is revived as a seemingly mindless beast, only actualy talking in his final moments, which is the quote from earlier.

In the japanese version, this quote is written entirely in katakana, which can indicate that its pronounced weirdly somehow, in cases like this likely because he had a hard time forming the words at all.

He also refers to himself as a Demon King in japanese, but that term hadn’t caught on in the english versions of the games yet.

Okay so, as I kinda mentioned above, this Ganon’s story gets a bit muddled from this point on.

Sometime after ALttP, but before ALbW, ALbW’s backstory (which is not ALttP) occurs, during which a hero fights a Ganon, who is then sealed away by him, the princess and the sages, but we dont know if this Ganon is the same, just revived again, or an entirely new incarnation.

But you could argue that it hardly matters, cause he barely does anything in the game, essentially acting as a power boost for Yuga...

However, there is a theory that he might do more than that actually.

So, according to this theory, Yuga actually was completely loyal to Hilda, and its only by fusing with Ganon that he starts wanting to betray, due to Ganons influence. The theory is nice in the sense that it makes Yuga more of an opposite of Ganon than he seems if you take the game at face value, and gives Ganon more to do. Depending on your interpretation, Yuga might just be influenced by Ganon, or they literally fuse into a being that is just as much Ganon as it is Yuga.

But of course that is just a minor theory, and you dont have to like it, naturally.

After that we get HF and AoL!Ganon, who is said to be more of a mindless beast as this point, no trace left of the human he used to be.

A rather sad fate.

Again it is unclear if this is the same Ganon, revived yet again, or maybe (anotehr) reincarnation.

But if its the former, you can only assume that, even if you dont think Agahnim dying had any effect on Ganon, just forcing him to ressurect over and over instead of letting him reincarnate properly, must’ve done quite the number on Ganon.

Somehow thinking about this version of Ganon in particular makes me think about the cursed boars in Princess Mononoke, who where lost to their anger. Especially the moment when the Wolf faces the Old Boar, who we have seen slowly lose his self at this point, and she almost pitifully says “Can’t you even speak anymore?” to him.

It almost feels like Downfall Timeline!Ganon is cursed by fate, in a sense. Not really in-universe either, but out of universe too!

History is already written (the first two games are already out) and thus Ganon has to follow the path that is already set for him, become what he will be in the future (what he is in the first two games), a frightening monster that terrorizes this kingdom of Hyrule for the sake of power, with no humanity in him (him having been human wasnt part of his character at the time the first two games where released)

I wonder if the demons failing to get Links blood in 2 will mark the end of this Ganon? (I hope not)

It was kinda nice to see BotW seemingly do somewhat of a modern take on this kinda idea of Ganon, something that has become little more than destruction of Hyrule in pyhsical form. I could see people place BotW as post- AoL for that reason, even.

And well, rolling back time yet again, we go to the last way OoT!Ganondorf turned out, which is TP!Ganondorf...

....who, compared to the others, actually has a bit more of a complicated “set-up” that kickstarts his character.

When Link gets send back in time at the end of OoT, his Tiforce of Courage breaks apart into the pieces we find in WW, presumably because Link was literally removed from that reality as he possessed it?

Then upon his arrival in the new Child Timeline, Link immediately gets the Triforce of Courage of THAT timeline, presumably cause he is in a state of being where he is meant to have a Triforce Piece of Courage?

Well, regardless of what you believe to be the cause, this is what happens, and as a result, the other two Triforce pieces choose Zelda and Ganondorf to bear them and end up residing in them. Thats how the pieces ended up with the three without the Sacred Realm being entered in this version of the events.

Link ends up warning Zelda and the king of the events that will transpire in the future, and thus Ganondorf loses the trust of the king and is unable to set his plan from OoT into motion.

Its a bit vague, but sometime after that Ganondorf starts a direct attack towards Hyrule, but gets captured and put on trial.

And as you know, as he was about to be executed, the Triforce of Power activated and saved him from death.

Now I am not sure if this is true, but I think up until that point, Ganondorf didn’t even know he had it.

But wether he discovered he had it now, or the moment it fist came to him, one thing I am sure of, he mustve felt so great for it. Cause he has no idea that a time travelling Link caused this to happen, right? From his perspective, the power of the gods just came to him like that because he is that great! And then, he cant even die as a result of this? He is literally immortal? Well, he must be the dang chosen one, right?

No wonder he got all god complex in this one!

Something I´m kinda interested in is how this guy spend years, likely centuries, in the Twillight Realm, and if his form in there is any indication, not exactly in physical form either, I mean isnt it implied he HAD to mae use of Zant like that in order to be able to have a physical form like that?

Ultimately TP!Ganondorf just is a lot like OoT!Ganondorf if you think about it, just kinda taken to a more extreme. He is no longer just human, but has transcended humanity much further than OoT!Ganondorf has, and feels superior to everyone because of it.

He is absolute in his own eyes, he is a god, his eventual victory is certain, his battle with the hero just a formality at this point.

And he sticks to that mindset until the very end, even as he is stabbed and fatally wounded by Link. It only makes sense, he couldnt be stopped by this before, why would it stop him now?

Of course the events that follow are rather vague, and people argue about what it means to this day, but I think it ultimately boils down to Ganondorf biting of more than he can chew, overestimating his own power. Or rather, what he thinks is his own power, cause its not even his.

From the moment he was impaled by the sword of the sage, Ganondorf has been a dead man.

He has only been kept alive afterwards through the power of others, the gods, and Zant as well.

This power was not his, and thus it could just leave him just as quick as it came to him.

The imagine of Zant snapping his neck, to me, either just refers to the fact that with Zant dead, who acted as Ganondorf anchor of sorts, Ganondorf himself dies as well, or it refers to the fact that Ganondorf, who saw himself as a god and superior to everything, was ultimately just as much of a mortal and simple being than the very person who worshipped him as a deity the most.

Yes, you could call Zant the very person that made Ganondorf a god in the first place, in more ways than one, so without him, Ganondorf is a god no more. And he dies just like any mortal would.

Ultimately this Ganondorf story feels like a story of hubris.

Simple, but neat.

(Its interesting like, its almost like, TP!Ganondorf was a human who longed to be a god, and WW!Ganondorf was like a god who longed to be human?)

But, do not think it ends here...

We’ve looked at all the people that OoT!Ganondorf grew up to be, but that isn’t all the Ganons there is, the story of Ganon actually continues further down the Child Timeline.

Yes, this brings us to FSA!Ganon, or as I sometimes like to call him, Ganon II.

I understand that most probably never played this game, and I probably won’t blow your minds if I tell you Ganon doesn’t actually do much in this game but, I still like to think about him.

He’s actually a proper reincarnation of TP!Ganondorf, folowing the latter’s death at the end of TP.

From some dialouge in-game we know a little bit about his past. Like his past life, he was a boy born to the Gerudo people, and was named Ganondorf.

Interestingly, in this game, the Gerdudo dont actually say that every 100 years a male child is born, they that every 100 years a “special” child is born, and of course Ganondorf was that special child. They still mention the “only man” part, but it doesnt come up with the “every 100 years” line.

Notably it also doesnt seem that Ganondorf was supposed to be their king, and it doesnt seem like they ever treated him like a king, they only mention he was supposed to be the protector of the Gerudo people and the desert.

This is just speculation, but perhaps, after what happened to the first Ganondorf, the Gerudo people decided it wasnt a good idea to treat the sole male like a king just because.

The Gerudo in the game tell you that the older Ganndorf became, the more twisted and obsessed with power he became, and eventually he started breaking their laws, too.

When he entered the forbidden pyramid, the Gerudo basically considered him banished from their tribe, but also didnt think he would ever survive in there and presumed him to be dead.

The Gerudo in this game really only talk badly about Ganondorf, which probably makes sense if he really just did bad stuff to them, but its a very stark contrast to OoT where the Gerudo seemed to just let Ganondorf get away with everything, kinda.

Something I wonder about if maybe like, Ganondorf wasn’t exactly treated well by the Gerudo, out of fear of him turning out like the old Ganondorf, or if Ganondorf just turned bad all on his own. Or maybe a mixture of both?

What is sorta interesting is the story of how this one came to be Ganon, which is that within the pyramid, he found a certain Trident, which is implied to have caused him to “awake as Ganon”, so to speak, as he picked it up. This is the inscription found with the Trident:

“Seek...you...the world? Seek you...power? Does your...soul...despise peace and...thirst for... more? Does your soul...cry... for...destruction and... conquest? We...grant you...power to ...ruin...the world. The power of...darkness. Evil...spirit of magic trident. You are...the... King of Darkness.“

The trident feels like it has more out of universe meaning than in-universe (though I do headcanon it to be a reincarnated ghirahim somehow, because I can). The trident being a weapon that franchise-wise is heavily associated with Ganon, and notably Ganon only, as Ganondorf is never really seen wielding a literal trident.

This Ganondorf picks up the trident, and with it the legacy of the interpretations of Ganons that came in the games before this one, so to speak.

I´m sorry for this part being so unstructured, but interestingly, Ganondorf is this game is referred to as “ancient demon reborn”, or something like “instrument of evil reborn” in japanese, hinting that even at the time of the game’s release, this Ganon was probably intended to be the reincarnation of a previous evil, likely a previous Ganon, of course.

What I wonder about is how much this Ganon is aware of that, though. When he grew up, becoming more and more twisted, did he know? Did he know he was the reincarnation of a villain that had previously plagued Hyrule? Did he feel his hatred? Did he know whose it was, or did he consider it his own? Or was it simply his own?

And when he picked up the trident, and transformed into a demon beast, did he understand what this meant? What he was? Did he ever obtain any memories of his past self, even?

Something that hints that this /might/ be the case is Shadow Link.

Now Shadow Link is not actually created by the dark mirror from the evil part of Link’s heart as the english localization suggest. Instead its created from the evil part of Ganon’s heart, using the dark mirror. It is said that through the mirror,the hatred and evil of Ganondorf, throughout time, took on the shape of Link. Likely because the hero is a major subject of Ganondorf’s hatred.

The fact that this happened when FSA!Ganon used the mirror, despite himself never having met Link up until that point, hints that he might, at least subconsiously, harbor the memories of his past incarnations?

But really, as usual there is a lot open to interpretation.

I´m just so intrigued, like in this timeline there is a “second Ganon”, a Ganon that came “after”, someone who had to take on this cruel legacy.

And, with that we have now talked about all the Ganon(dorf)s that have existed in the franchise to this day, not counting stuff like BS Zelda and the CDI-Games.

If you stuck around until this point, thank you so much, you’re too kind!

But also thanks to everyone that just skimmed this or looked it over briefly, I hope this wall of text did something for you.

(Sorry for any typos I... type too fast when I get excited about a topic.)

#legend of zelda #ganon #ganondorf

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bandicoot88 · 7 years

Text

Maybe I was wrong about Breath of the Wild’s timeline?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5WYgDGYlZoI made a post with reasons why I thought it was of the Adult Timeline. However, I am seeing evidence/hints actually pointing towards the Child Timeline, and an explanation on how my reasons can be debunked. I’ll go through each topic in the same order as my other post, so it’s tidy and you can compare the reasons, if you wish. Let’s go!

Koroks

So I said that because the Koroks were exclusive to WW and their evolution being because of the Great Sea, well... BOTW has sea too. It’s not island surrounded by an entire ocean, but there is sea in BOTW. We just don’t get to explore it that much. My point being is that the Kokiri could have still evolved into Koroks in another timeline, if the climate is correct. Or maybe they just evolve with time anyway, but at a different pace.

I say this because no matter what timeline you think it belongs in, we’re all agreed that it takes place a hell of a long time after the last game of a timeline, right? We had the backstory of the Guardians, Divine Beasts and Calamity Ganon, which exist in no other game! And that backstory happened 10,000 years before BOTW, so who knows how long we’re talking here.

Because of this too, Koroks weren’t present in TP, as for any Kokoris (some believe the TP monkeys might have been Kokoris, but by that logic we’re to believe it was a Kokiri>Monkey>Korok, which I find a bit unbelievable), so I am to believe they came about much later, if it is of this timeline. Still doesn’t explain the absence of Kokoris and the Deku Tree though, which bothers me (though the Forest Temple was a giant tree, but there’s no signs of it being ‘alive’). Maybe they just weren’t present.

Deku Tree

A minor mention to tie in with the above, but I guess there’s no reason why he shouldn’t return in the Child Timeline. He just hasn’t (unless BOTW is the one), because in the events of the Child Timeline, he dies, but is reborn as a sprout, but not until Link is an adult and after the whole Forest Temple curse, but since in the Child Timeline this doesn’t technically happen, the Deku Tree should have become a sprout much earlier.

Ritos

As with the Koroks, it’s possible they could have just evolved from Zoras, but not with every Zora. This certainly would explain why there’s no Zoras in the Adult Timeline (except for one I heard, and he’s green too), and as to why the Ritos look a bit different to WW’s Ritos. Though I did hate this argument for a reason for them to be completely different Ritos, because if people can believe they evolved from fish people, then they can believe they changed in appearance somewhat with their beaks, wings, etc. But now I am to believe that BOTW may indeed be of the Child Timeline instead, I can kinda get behind this, but not as a singular reason, because that’s dumb.

Sage references (Nabooru, Ruto, and Darunia)

While they didn’t awaken as Sages (I think) because they weren’t needed, they were still rulers to their people. This is my only justification as to why the Divine Beasts were named after them, rather than recognizing them as Sages, which was my argument. I guess with Vah Medor though (named after Medli) is just a coincidence, and more of just a throwback to WW.

Place names

As mentioned above, some things may just be there as a throwback. When I spoke about Linebeck Island, I said it was a good indication of it being in the Adult Timeline. However, the island is unimportant, since there’s literally nothing there. It’s just an island with a name. But what about an actual places that existed in OoT and TP? If you don’t want minor spoilers, look away now (though there’s nothing really left of these places anymore).

Ranch Ruins... it’s Lon Lon Ranch, because of the layout. You can just tell. Here’s a video (not mine) of the place (and prepare for feels):

youtube

TP’s Arbiter's Grounds is also in the game, but there’s not much left to show. Still, it was a real place. Another place, or thing I should say rather, is the Mirror of Twilight replica. I think this is what it’s meant to be anyway. It’s not the real thing though, because (TP spoilers) that thing got scattered to bits, not unless somehow it got put back together again, got tampered with, and moved from Gerudo Desert. I like to think of it as in honor of the real one. Or, it might just be it’s own thing, and fans are going nuts over it, which is possible. Here’s said video (not mine):

youtube

Lake Hylia is also pretty close to Gerudo Desert in both TP and BOTW, according to their maps. Remember, you actually get shot out of a cannon in TP from Hylia Lake to reach Gerudo Desert, because it’s otherwise inaccessible.

And Snowpeak reminds me of the Tabantha region (also in the north west), because they’re both consist of snowy mountains.

My only issue I have when comparing OoT’s, TP’s, and BOTW’s maps, is the locations of Death Mountain and Zora’s Domain. In OoT and BOTW, both locations are pretty spot on, but in TP, they literally swapped, with Death Mountain being closer to the Faron Province, whereas in OoT and BOTW, Zora’s domain is closer to their Faron areas. This makes no sense to me, as not only did it swap once, but twice. A volcano became a place of water, and then reverted back. Nintendo wtf? XD

Last random thing I want to mention is this:

youtube

I didn’t clog it in my own playthrough, but after watching another video classing this scene as “proof” of being in the Child Timeline, I was very non-agreeable on the subject. The events of SS and OoT happened regardless of any timeline you pick, though the outcome of OoT is different in each, the game’s events fitting to that timeline are acknowledged (Link dies, Link goes back as a child, or Link disappears). The mention of a bit twilight though, because for me, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s TP. It could just be a time of day. However, thinking about it, mentioning 2 games and then throwing something random in there doesn’t make sense, so yeah, I think Zelda is talking about TP.

#Legend of Zelda #Breath of the Wild #Zelda Discussion #My Discussions #My Zelda Discussions

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