#I haven’t had terfs trying to argue me into their beliefs since I put up a leather flag on my blog | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

rotationalsymmetry · 2 years

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Because I think this needs repeating every so often and I’m too lazy to search for my own post:

Radfem is not the same as terf (terf is a subset of radfem, all terfs are radfems but not all radfems are terfs) but radfems still have shitty ideologies whether they’re trans exclusive or not.

Radfems are feminists who looked at the concept of bodily autonomy and decided it meant nothing to them. They think that sex work is not a labor issue and that sex workers should be “rescued” and never actually listened to or allowed to lead their own movements. They appear to not understand that some people can enjoy sexual things that other people find unpleasant, and as such they are opposed to kink and see all kink as intrinsically abusive. (They also tend to ignore kink that isn’t male top/female bottom, and they also ignore when female bottoms actively desire and seek out kink.) They are against porn — not in the sense of “the porn industry can be exploitative so this is a labor issue” but in the sense of “visual images of sex are intrinsically harmful to women.” They talk a lot about sexual assault and abuse, but exclusively in a male perpetrator/female victim way — never about abusive girlfriends/wives, or mothers, or teachers or nurses or female therapists or female caregivers of disabled people.

And radfems have a different definition of lesbian than anyone else. Literally. They define lesbian in terms of choices and relationships rather than in terms of orientation. And they think everyone else should use that definition. Which distorts their understanding of bisexuals, asexuals, people who prefer “queer” as a label, and people who fight for the entire acronym rather than just women who prioritize relationships with other women. Even radfems who aren’t super weird about trans women or who are themselves trans.

Many radfems are also weird about trans people in that they think that if a trans woman lived say 20 years as a guy and 20 years as a woman only those first 20 years matter, and that if a trans woman demanded she be treated as a girl at age 5 and socially transitioned at that age and never looked back and has literally never once in her life been treated as a cis man, her agab still matters more than nearly the entirety of her life experience. Which is fucking weird. And there are reasons terfs get singled out as unusually harmful to the community (ie, it’s not just wonky beliefs, it’s also active harm, from online bullying and doxxing to physical assault to lobbying for anti trans legislation) but uh, yeah, non-terf radfems also have incredibly shitty and harmful politics.

Anyways, non-terf radfem beliefs aren’t very coherent because the idea of transness being real hinges on the idea of bodily autonomy and the idea of consent, which terfs don’t believe in (see: fighting to crack down on sex work as being uniquely harmful to workers as opposed to, you know, people choosing which option under capitalism seems least bad to them at the time, see: frequently viewing all heterosexual sex as being fundamentally rape, see: viewing kink as being the same as abuse) and yeah, radfem beliefs are still incredibly fucked up and harmful even when they’re not explicitly transphobic.

Also, while in terms of word origins “radical feminism” comes from “radical” and “feminism”, of course, and at least some radfems are in fact conversant with Marxism, there are many strains of feminism and “radical feminism” is in many ways quite reactionary/fascist-istic, dunno if you want to blame that on horseshoe theory or having a movement dominated by upper middle class white people or what, but radical feminism isn’t the only or most coherent place to land if you want to have feminism inform your leftism or radical politics inform your feminism. Of course most feminism isn’t “radical” as such, it’s liberal to progressive, but … yeah, lots of us don’t think gender essentialism is particularly “radical”. Anyways, you can look into bodily autonomy (a perfectly cromulent radical concept) and sex positive feminism and intersectional feminism (which again usually isn’t radical as such but can cover a wide swath of “how do we feel about capitalism/heirachy/the state” positions.)

#hey guess what #I haven’t had terfs trying to argue me into their beliefs since I put up a leather flag on my blog #let’s see if that’s terf repellent or if I still get terf evangelizers #frankly most of the feminism I’ve been exposed to isn’t really radical as such so that’s the main weak spot in my argument #but god damn there’s nothing radical about gender essentialism #and there’s nothing radical about trying to control other people’s life decisions #tbf most of what I’ve read about anything isn’t radical

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biosex-bisexuality-blog · 7 years

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@azzythedreemurr this post ended up super fucking long. I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and your post inspired me to actually write it all out, since I get the feeling that you might actually listen.

I wanted it to be its own post so it’ll show up in tags and whatnot, and I’m going to put a 'keep reading’ here so that people can skip it faster, if they want.

I implore you {and anyone else reading} to read everything I have to say and really give it thought before responding. Some of it will likely trigger a negative response, I know because I’ve been in your position before and I would immediately dismiss anything that went against what I believed. Please read this with an open mind. As I say at the end of this, I’m seriously trying to present a compromise and a way to move forward so that both sides get what they want and can move on from this nonsense.

{This is the post I’m responding to, for anyone who wants to read from the source. I’ve copied most of it here but for transparency's sake I’ll link to it.}

Realizing that theres a clear line between Gender and Sex is super important, and i plead that you re-educate yourself on this matter.

If you're not one of the ones denying biology, you aren’t the problem. I don't give a fuck about people identifying as whatever gender they want. I think it's stupid, since gender isn't real, but as long as you're not coming at me and telling me I should identify with a gender (like telling me I should call myself cis instead of just woman. I don't identify as a woman, I just am one by nature.) we don’t have an issue.

There are, however, people hell bent on removing all distinctions between sex and gender. That is what I was referring to.

IDK what exactly you want me to ‘re-educate’ myself on, since it seems we’re in agreement.

What Im saying, is that people who transition from amab to female [...]

You can't transition from male to female. You can't change your biology. You can alter the appearance of your biology through hormones and surgery, but trans males will always be male.

Gender, as we’ve established, is separate from sex. They can call themselves trans women, I don't care. But they'll always be trans women, not women. Words mean something. And the word woman is already defined as adult human female. We need to keep language like that intact, otherwise women don’t have a unifying word to talk about our specifically FEMALE issues.

IDK if you’ve noticed but, radical feminists in general use ‘female’ now to talk about female specific issues, out of respect for the people who identify as some other gender and view ‘woman’ as something gendered. We’re working for liberation of ALL females, even those we don’t necessarily agree with. Expecting us to also give up ‘female’ as a way to refer to our biology is way out of line. It’s effectively silencing us about the collective experience of being female. And no, ‘uterus bearer’ or ‘menstruator’ or any other words that have been thought up to replace it don’t work. None of those words takes into account the collective experience of having a female body.

Female is a holistic term, and that is important to keep intact for us.

that date women are equal to women who date women. [...]

They are equal, obviously, as humans we should respect each other and treat each other as equals.

Because they’re both women who date women.

They’re not both women who date women, though. Trans women who date women are trans women who date women.

Trans woman is defined as someone male who identifies as the gender identity referred to as “woman.”

Women are adult human females.

Neither of these definitions require anyone to agree on what ‘feeling like a woman’ means.

The trans woman gets to say she’s a trans woman, and women get to keep the word that refers to their biology. Win win, in my book.

I’m of the opinion that differences should be celebrated, not suppressed. Differences between trans women and women need to be talked about, and not denied. Biological differences are important. As has been established, we agree on that.

An example of what happens when we don’t talk about differences in biology is this new trend of trans women claiming they have periods. If they are having intense stomach pains, they need to see a doctor. That is not a period, because they don’t have the biology required to have a period, but it could very well be an indication of something seriously wrong. Or it could be gas lol.

And there’s also trans women saying that peeing blood is the same as a period, but peeing blood is NOT normal, and it is certainly NOT the same as when women bleed. I thought we had gotten past males thinking that women bleed from the same place they pee out of, but I guess not! ;)

Second of all, No shit gender is a social construct. Gender is more fake than a terf saying “I support trans people”. I identify as agender myself, so we should both know how fucking stupid gender is as a concept in whole.

Good, we’re still on the same page about gender being objectively fake. The difference is that your side is expecting me to treat it as something real. You’re not doing that, that’s great, but you need to understand that trans activism has become obsessed with forcing everyone to center themselves around ‘gender.’ If you’re serious about not seeing gender as a real thing, and in fact seeing it as stupid, you should be using your time to talk to the trans activists who basically worship gender. Not arguing with the people who agree with you more than you think.

I advise you stop using "terf." It's become nothing more than a silencing tactic because, in my experience, everyone who uses it has a different reason behind it. It doesn't tell me anything as you what you think I'm saying or believe.

Also? You saying that gender and sex are different would get you called a terf by some trans activists. Just a heads up.

Could you elaborate on what you mean when you call me a terf? I genuinely want to know, because if you’re assuming something incorrect about me I’d like the chance to correct it.

Finally: “we realized that none of this trans bullshit actually holds up against critical examination.” Define “None of this trans bullshit” [...]

What I mean by trans bullshit is:

The denial of biological sex. You’ve said you recognize a difference between gender and sex, and you find that distinction important, but your buddies don't anymore. That's a problem.

Insistence on ‘brain sex’ despite all the evidence against it.

Forced assignment of non trans people with the word ‘cis.’ I don’t identify as a gender, I am a woman because I’m an adult human female. I don’t need a word forced on me that means ‘not trans’ or ‘not nonbinary.’

The concept of ‘cis privilege.’ I’ve read through those lists, and as someone who doesn’t conform to the expectations of my sex I don’t actually have most of them. And, most of the ones I’ve seen aren’t actually privileges for women. Being seen as a woman? How is that a privilege?

Forcing everyone to define their sexuality to be based on gender instead of sex.

Bullying lesbians, and bi women who don’t want to date males, into including trans women in their dating pool.

Bullying gay men, and bi men who don’t want to date females, into including trans men in their dating pool. This happens far less, but it’s important to mention.

Bullying straight people, and bi people who only want to date the opposite sex, into dating people of the same sex just because they identify as the gender associated with the opposite sex. Again, happens far less but important to mention here.

Colonizing lesbianism and allowing males to call themselves lesbian, even though a lesbian is a female homosexual.

Changing the definitions of words that we need to remain the same so we can talk about issues and oppression effectively. Words that indicate biological sex, words to talk about sexuality based on biological sex, even the words referring to female biology are being altered (front hole?? Really??)

Lobbying for laws that change protections based on sex into protections based on gender. I don’t mind laws that protect gender identity, I think there should be legal recourse for someone who has been treated unfairly by the government due to their gender identity. Just like I believe in having people protected from being treated unfairly for their religious beliefs. Those laws would also protect people who don’t conform to the expectations of their sex. It’s beneficial to everyone. The issue is that, so far, trans activists haven’t been trying to get new laws created, they’ve been trying to get current laws protecting women changed.

Denial of wrongdoing by trans women. I get that trans activists want to protect trans women, but it’s gone way too far. They’re now defending and denying trans women raping females, and are guilting people out of talking about abuse they’ve experienced at the hands of trans women. It’s alarming how many stories there are about trans women behaving in a very much male way and their victims being silenced and convinced they need to not talk about it in order to protect the trans community.

Denial of the proven fact that trans women commit violence at a similar rate to males as a whole.

The insistence on using ‘correct’ pronouns for abusers and rapists. A person using ‘he’ to describe their trans woman abuser should not be punished or ‘called out.’ Victims have the right to talk about their abuser however they damn well please. This is sometimes excused because it ‘hurts trans women and tells them that we will only respect their gender identity under certain circumstance.’ Yeah, the circumstances of not being a fucking rapist or abuser???

The expectation by trans women of being included in every female space. Females need space away from males. Trans women can, and do, make their own spaces for their own needs. Women should get the same respect. Why is it that trans people get space away from ‘cis’ people, but females don’t get space away from males?

The lgbT community centering everything they do around gender. I dunno about you and your local pride center, but mine has 4 different programs exclusively centered around trans and nonbinary people. Two for youth and two for adults. They have one for adult women, and that program is open to anyone who identifies as a woman. There’s one for adult men, and again it’s for anyone identifying as a man. There are none for girls or boys. And then there are a few that are for the whole community. If we tried to organize something for ‘females’ and one for ‘males’ the backlash would be intense, and it would likely be shut down before it even began. Even if we made it clear that ALL females, regardless of gender identity, and ALL males, regardless of gender identity, were welcome to their respective programs.

I can provide sources for these if you want, but I didn’t want to make this post longer than it is. I have posts that detail these saved elsewhere, so I can get them for you.

Again, if you personally are not doing these things that’s great. However, the other people who use ‘terf’ and attack radical feminists are doing them. Ignoring that doesn’t help anyone.

because the way you said that, gives me a feeling that you mean “Trans woman dating woman is hurting lesbians uwuwuwu”

I don’t think trans women dating women is hurting lesbians. I think trans women calling themselves lesbians is hurting lesbians.

Lesbian means, as I said earlier, female homosexual. This is an important word to keep so that we can talk about how they are oppressed specifically because they experience the intersection of:

misogyny (which is defined as prejudice against females, NOT anyone who “identifies as woman” because ‘gyn’ refers to female biology) and

homophobia (which is prejudice against same sex attracted people).

Trans women who are exclusively attracted to females are heterosexual. To be clear, I don’t expect them to call themselves straight, especially if they’re stealth. But they need to come up with a different word to use to mean ‘trans woman attracted to females’, because lesbian is taken. It is appropriation for them to use the word lesbian when they don’t fit the definition of it. Lesbian means female homosexual, and since a trans woman’s sex is male she can’t be a female homosexual. Pretty simple, I think.

And, if they’re open to people of both sexes, they should be calling themselves bisexual. If they only want to date woman identified people, that’s cool. But they’re still bisexual because bisexual means being attracted to both males and females.

There are trans people who are exclusively attracted to one sex. They are also being hurt in this campaign to get sexuality to refer to gender. They deserve to be respected in their sexuality, and currently they are not. They are being silenced right alongside non trans homosexuals.

Respecting differences of opinion and belief:

As long as we’re on the same page about gender and sex being different, I don’t think there should be any issue. Me not believing in gender doesn’t mean that I can’t respect someone’s beliefs about gender. I don’t believe in Christianity, or any religion, and I don’t go around harassing Christians, or other religious people. As long as they just live their lives and leave me out of it, we don’t have an issue. The only time I have a problem with them is when they try to change laws that affect me or come at me and try to convert me to their beliefs. Or if they insist on me referring to myself with some word that specifically means I’m not of their faith. I’m an atheist, that indicates a disbelief in any religion. I don’t need to be assigned a word that means ‘not Christian’ or ‘not Jewish’ or ‘not Muslim.’

It’s the same for trans activists. I don’t misgender anyone, I don’t go out of my way to trigger actual disphoria or even social disphoria. I’ll use the names they choose, I won’t ask what their ‘real name’ is because I find that insulting to them and just plain unnecessary. I’ll use their pronouns, assuming I understand HOW to use them since some of them use odd sets. And if I don’t know how to use them, I’ll just use their name (or ‘they’) the whole time I speak about them.

Tbh, I respect trans people in general more than I respect Christians in general. I know you might not believe that, but it’s the truth.

The issues arise when they do the things I listed in the trans bullshit part of this post. If they didn’t do that shit, I would be perfectly content with a live and let live attitude towards them.

Moving forward:

There is a lot of work to be done to erase the damage that’s been caused by trans activists insisting that biological sex isn’t real. I think that trans activists who, like yourself, recognize the important distinction between gender and sex can work with the radical feminists who, like myself, respect gender identity. We could potentially come up with a solution that works for both sides. The LGBT communities in other parts of the world don’t have these kinds of conflicts, and I would like to follow their lead and end this insane war. But that’s only going to happen if we start working together.

Especially those of us who are visibly sex stereotype non conforming. We have a lot of the same experiences, and we should be working together and talking about them together instead of dividing ourselves based on what ‘gender’ we do or don’t identify with. Trans women should be working with other males who don’t conform to sex stereotypes, regardless of if they identify as trans or nonbinary. Trans men should be working with other females who don’t conform, too.

Find the commonalities, and celebrate and respect the differences. It’s a simple thing that has been warped by this shit.

I’ve posted a lot of angry things to this blog, but I genuinely don’t want to be angry about this anymore. I don’t want to fight, I don’t want this hatred, I don’t want this community to be eating each other alive because I think it only benefits conservatives and bigots. We’re giving all our attention to this bullshit when we could be working for the protection and happiness of all of us.

I’m tired. I want to work with people who are just as tired to end this.

This is an olive branch. Take it or leave it.

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