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raine-kai · 1 year

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Third Prince from Love Like the Galaxy

Ok so after the like, half a dozen times I have seen Love Like the Galaxy, of course I adore the Third Prince. The first time I watched it, that was the biggest twist for me. Like, sure, we get that Zisheng has secrets and has been hiding his true identity--no plot description ever let us forget that, even though you have to get into the 40s before the show even starts dropping you the hints about the truth of that. Shaoshang keeps saying, "I'll stand by you unless you deceive me" etc etc she says it a couple times in a few different ways which signaled to me ok he is *definitely* deceiving her, and probably with more than just his secret identity.

Anyway, all of this pays off beautifully. Shaoshang works out a whole bunch of the truth all by herself. She and Zisheng have a confrontation about the ways in which he's been using her as a shield to hide his political movements, and she gives Zisheng FOUR openings over the course of like, 45mins of runtime to tell her the truth. But he never does, anyway she goes to his aid anyway, because liar or no, Zisheng doesn't get to go to his tragic death without Shaoshang's permission. Cue the him trying to push her away and she refusing...right up until they're trapped on the cliff and he abandons her for his presumed death.

BUT THEN.

The Third Prince storming her home and Shaoshang just ambling out of her room to the standoff to sit down on the floor and be like, "Don't worry guys, this is Zisheng's best friend. He needs me to help save Zisheng. So, Third Prince, what do you think we should do? He wouldn't wanna live in exile till you come to power like you guys have been planning, doncha think?" and I was like 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯

WHAT.

THIRD PRINCE.

The guy who is always snarking in the background??? Who never has even the hint of a kind word to ANYONE. This is Zisheng's best frien-

Okay you know what, never mind, I can see that. Dude even presented evidence to get his sister punished for a crime she committed, and as we have established with Shaoshang, people who go for justice over family ties are DEFINITELY Zisheng's favorite type of person.

Anyway, so this guy is Zisheng's best friend. They've been best friends for as long as Zisheng has been in the palace, we learn, and that story Crown Princess Consort told Shaoshang about the Crown Prince rescuing Zisheng from the water? Turns out that was Third Prince, actually.

That scene at the banquet where Third Prince chides everybody for cozying up to Zisheng now that he's risen to power, and implores them all to remember who was kind to him from the start? That's not him calling them out on hypocrisy so much as staking his territory...in a way that only perhaps he, Zisheng and the Crown Prince understand (more on this later).

Pre-Reveal Third Prince in the Rewatch Experience

On rewatch, the connection between Third Prince and Zisheng is increasingly obvious. Zisheng is overtly tied to the original Crown Prince (Zikun), and Third Prince (Ziduan) despises him. On initial watch, I completely missed it because it wasn't clear to me that Third Prince cuts a fine line where he despises Zikun and everything to do with him, except for Zisheng.

NOTE: Zikun and Ziduan are original Crown Prince and Third Prince's respective courtesy names from the book, and I am going to use them going forward because it's easier than constantly trying to keep track of them via title, especially when they both held the Crown Prince title at some point.

The two of them putting on a public show of being barely civil really doesn't help things for first-time viewers, but once you see through the facade, it's increasingly obvious.

The first time we see this faked antagonism flat-out is in ep 24 when Zisheng brings Shaoshang to sit beside him, in line with Zikun (Crown Prince at the time). Ziduan immediately uses this to take a verbal stab at Zikun. Zikun (in character for him) brushes this off and points out that Zisheng is the one who brought her, while Ziduan's words lump Zikun together with Zisheng, using Shaoshang's unearned place at Zisheng's side as a sign of their ineptitude. As that scene goes on and Zisheng requests the Emperor for a betrothal, and Shaoshang's mother steps in to try to find an excuse to avoid the engagement, Ziduan is the one who articulates what's going on: that the Cheng family fears Ling Buyi to such an extent that they are willing to disparage their daughter in public to avoid a betrothal.

Going forward from here, Ziduan continues to be a fairly snarky background presence, with his noteworthy moments in the 30s being the time he brought evidence against Third Princess for using counterfeit currency, and his involvement in the playacted show that was Zisheng's "punishment" in episode 38. The punishment sequence is particularly entertaining to me to watch in retrospect, knowing that Zisheng is very much part of this show and Ziduan is his best friend, because Ziduan is visibly having fun.

One thing that I've spent a lot of time pondering is the way that, during the Huo memorial banquet, Ziduan called out everybody in the room for cozying up to Zisheng now that he has power and influence, when they used to think so little of him. He implores them all to remember who took Zisheng's side back then—which we audience, through the story the Crown Princess Consort tells Shaoshang, are led to believe refers principally to Zikun. It's only after the reveal of Ziduan and Zisheng's friendship in episode 49 that we learn that this story is incorrect—that Ziduan was the one who pulled Zisheng out of the water, and that they have been friends ever since.

This is a particularly interesting moment to me, because surely the three involved—Zisheng, Ziduan, Zikun—have not forgotten the truth of that story. But at the same time, it makes little sense for Ziduan to speak up that way if he had intended it as an outright "Zisheng is MINE, hands off". (In the corresponding scene in the novel, he does seem to be more overtly pointing out that only he has treated Zisheng well through the years, but if we start mixing canons we'll be here all day—not least because I am constrained by the limitations of navigating machine translation and my poor language abilities with the original text.) The two of them have spent too long concealing their connection for that, even within the palace walls. So I'm left to conclude that for whatever reason, they have been feeding the false rumor that Zikun was the one who saved Zisheng that day.

The issue of the tiger tally is a fascinating one once we understand all the motivations at play, because Zisheng very much supports Ziduan's bid for the throne, but he is moving against his uncle the Marquis Yue, who is one of Ziduan's most ardent supporters. The silent interplay between Zisheng and Ziduan when the supposedly-stolen tiger tally is seemingly present and accounted for is fascinating. Ziduan is visibly taken aback, and looks at Zisheng like he knows he has had something to do with this. At the same time, he says nothing even as his uncle tries to press, assuming the tally is a counterfeit. Zisheng is not merely compromising his own political schemes for Shaoshang here. He is caught in between Shaoshang—who has firmly allied herself with Zikun and Empress Xuan—and Ziduan, and he is going out of his way to maneuver in such a way where both of them remain protected, while also doing his best to salvage what he can of the plan for Ziduan (as evidenced by the fact that he did not return the tiger tally).

When Zisheng makes his choice to go after Ling Yi the way he does, it is Shaoshang who points out that he used the tiger tally knowing that it would result in Zikun being deposed, like a last gift to Ziduan. Ziduan denies this fervently, insisting that he did not want to implicate Zikun for Shaoshang's sake, but she brushes this aside. Zisheng is a detail-minded person, and he's excellent at using one action to cover multiple schemes. He knew what he was doing.

Ziduan's Conspiracy to Overthrow Zikun, and Zisheng's Involvement

We learn from Ziduan's words to Shaoshang that though Zisheng was with him and his uncle that day in the pagoda, Zisheng did not agree to join their conspiracy. Zisheng has never exposed Ziduan's intentions beyond the time he implored Shaoshang to stay away from the Eastern Palace because "someone is moving against it". It seems from Ziduan's words that he at the very least believes that Zisheng requires full plausible deniability for Shaoshang if nothing else. It's possible that Ziduan himself even believes that he does not have Zisheng's full support—although he trusts him to never get him in trouble, so the word "full" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

The relationship between Zikun and Zisheng and Ziduan is a fascinating one. While there is no doubt that Ziduan is Zisheng's truest friend, his relationship with Zikun is not as straightforward as, Zisheng actively wants him deposed for Ziduan, though this is the place that relationship is in by the time Shaoshang enters the palace. Zisheng has grown up at Zikun's side, and has been shown to be consistently giving him good advice through the years. Even when the issue of the tiger tally comes up, the seemingly cruel advice Zisheng offers—that the one way out is for the Crown Princess Consort to confess her part and take the blame—is genuine. For all of Zikun's failings, he had the potential to be a decent ruler, if he had decent people by his side. But Zikun has consistently chosen the wrong people, and taken bad advice, and the Crown Princess Consort does nothing but exacerbate this problem. Zisheng's advice is one that is designed to mitigate the ability of the Crown Princess Consort to continue causing future damage—though given his history with counseling Zikun against marrying her or appointing her relatives, it seems a foregone conclusion that Zikun will not take it.

Zisheng is of course biased toward Ziduan over Zikun, but he has given Zikun several chances to fix things as much as possible. While he might not have the same personal warmth for Zikun that he has for Ziduan, he has not given up on Zikun because of this. By the time Shaoshang enters the palace, we understand that if she did not get in the way, Zisheng is happy to actively take steps to get Zikun deposed—but this is only after years of trying to advise Zikun in vain.

Absolutely nobody has any hard feelings in the long run about Ziduan's conspiracy either... Well, maybe Zikun does, we don't get to hear his thoughts on the subject—but he takes criticism so well and so humbly that I don't believe he'd hold a grudge, at least not in the long term. Even Empress points out on her deathbed that she doesn't need Yue Heng to offer her any promises or assurances about her family, when Ziduan has everything under control. The love and trust the Empress shows in that moment is profound—though of course she was also very much part of the "get Zikun out of this position" committee, as much for his own sake as the country's.

Ziduan and Shaoshang

The relationship between Ziduan and Shaoshang is not a harmonious one—and I spend a lot of time contemplating if it only became as combative as it did because Zisheng was hiding Ziduan from Shaoshang and shielding Shaoshang (and Zikun) from Ziduan, or if they were always going to clash no matter what.

They are essentially in a tug of war of Zisheng's loyalty that Shaoshang does not know she is engaging in for most of the narrative. Ziduan, meanwhile, might claim that he is only being antagonistic to keep up the act, but I do feel some of his frustration directed at Shaoshang must be real, given how much her presence has altered Zisheng's priorities. While Zisheng never fully betrays either of them for the other, he also can never fully support either—by some definition, he has betrayed both of them in small ways in defense of the other.

What strikes me most of all is that Ziduan does seem to warm up to Shaoshang very rapidly once they actually begin to speak plainly to each other—though there's no indication that she has ever warmed to him in return. The fact is that in their interactions in episode 49, Shaoshang is once again (and for the last time in the narrative) placed between Zisheng and Ziduan: specifically because Ziduan needs to save Zisheng, and he knows that only Shaoshang can, but she has the gall to be abed with "illness". Their resulting dialogue is so perfect and so well-acted, I love watching Ziduan's microexpressions throughout. Shaoshang's monologue about her worth is one of my favorite moments in the drama.

I say that Shaoshang is between Zisheng and Ziduan in these scenes only because I do believe that is how Ziduan sees her, initially. But in fact, Ziduan and Shaoshang are fully united in episode 49 as the two people who are willing to burn the world down to save Zisheng. Through the narrative, we have seen so many people try to appeal to Zisheng, and so many people who claimed to love him. Yet in episode 49, we see that not even the Emperor or Zikun or Uncle Cui can bring themselves to defend what seems an entirely inexplicable descent into patricide, no matter how loathsome Ling Yi was. It is Ziduan who goes fully feral, as Shaoshang had the night of Ling Yi's birthday banquet. It's Ziduan who storms the Cheng house, ready to drag Shaoshang out of bed, chastises her for not caring enough, snaps at the entire court to shut up, lays out how much Zisheng ought to mean to them, as a nominal member of their family.

In a world full of characters who claimed to love Zisheng, when he is truly in crisis, it is Shaoshang and Ziduan who stand by his side and refuse to budge.

For several viewings—until yesterday, in fact—I had been assuming that Ziduan must have a wife, somewhere in the narrative. But on closer inspection of the unnamed members of the imperial family...it does appear possible that he doesn't have one. Which seems odd, on one hand, because if Zisheng being single at his age is treated as such a big deal, then surely Ziduan is in a similar boat? Especially vying for the Crown Prince title as he is—surely he needs a wife?

I end up believing that surely he must have one, though based on what we know of his personality, I doubt it is romantic, if it is even sexual. It seems to me that Ziduan largely sees women as property, as pawns in his game. Or maybe this is just how he sees Shaoshang, who is the only woman we truly see him interact with as a person. (Even his presenting the evidence of Third Princess's crimes was so throwaway that she might have been anybody. Presumably his relationship with his mother is doing well enough, as he escapes the fire hose of her tongue lashing at the Huo memorial banquet, but we don't get to see their relationship either.) His (entirely unfair) criticisms of Shaoshang might just be what he thinks wives ought to be—but more likely, I see it as him trying to push her to "prove her worth" so to speak, as the person who has caused Zisheng to fall for her so thoroughly as she has. Zisheng, of course, being the person Ziduan cares about most in this world, as far as the narrative shows us—which brings us to the relationship I really am here to unpack.

Ziduan and Zisheng

Despite this relationship being such a big twist and so vital to the plot, it was astonishing to me that we never get a single scene of Ziduan and Zisheng just...interacting. Not one. They are always in a crowd or in a crisis, and while there is clearly a lot of love between them, and they clearly have moments just to themselves, the show never shows us a single one.

Oh, it hints at us.

The speed at which Zisheng was able to get to Shaoshang in the pagoda also has to take into account that he had to be able to communicate to Ziduan at some point, "I'll handle this, pretend I was never here".

The undertone of glee Ziduan is emitting in episode 38 during Zisheng's chastisement is probably coming from a place of getting to humble Shaoshang (who is at this point a thorn in his side that he has never really interacted with), but I also see his amusement as emoting for both himself and Zisheng. Gosh, I love imagining the verbal conversation that must have happened with the emperor, as well as the nonverbal conversation that must have happened between Ziduan and Zisheng before Shaoshang entered the throne room.

The way Ziduan went fully feral for Zisheng in episode 49 merits another mention, because it is pronounced. Here is a character who has spent most of the show being calm and collected and extremely image-conscious and careful with his words. Yet when he enters that throne room debating the crimes of Ling Buyi, his voice is so full of rage that it's hoarse. His accusation to Shaoshang from the scene before this, that she does not care enough because she is acting too calm, is very much him projecting, because he has fully lost his cool in the face of Zisheng's crisis. And not for a single moment does he care what the crimes are, or why Zisheng did them—he doesn't even have the bare-bone information that Shaoshang has worked out about Zisheng's true identity. All Ziduan wants is to save Zisheng. (This makes me think about the dialogue between him and Shaoshang at the Cheng house, too—because of course Shaoshang has the knowledge that she can probably get him exonerated. But Ziduan doesn't know what she does, so the fact that she leads by asking what is Ziduan's game plan here? And he doesn't have an answer. Chef's kiss moment for Shaoshang, honestly.)

In episode 51, when the Emperor is confronting Ziduan and Zisheng about their attempts to get Zikun deposed, there is a moment during Zisheng's explanation that he does not want to be Emperor when a series of close-ups cut to a wide shot, and we see Ziduan pulling his hand back from Zisheng. In fact, that whole scene is full of the love and trust between Ziduan and Zisheng, even though Zisheng never once so much as acknowledges Ziduan's presence. When Shaoshang enters the room, she seats herself a step behind Zisheng to his left, which approximately mirrors Ziduan's position on his right. I adore this position, which so clearly seems to illustrate the nature of the relationship between these three, and I lament that there are no shots showing all three of them in frame together. NONE. Not in the entire show.

When Zisheng returns from his 5 years in the north in episode 52, Ziduan is walking with him, side-by-side.

When Zisheng rushes to save Ziduan in episode 55, as soon as he recognizes the threat to Guo Village where Shaoshang is, Ziduan begins to demand that Zisheng leave him and go to her immediately, lest she feel abandoned again and never forgive him again. Note that it's not that Ziduan feels she cannot handle herself—it's purely their relationship he's worried about here (and arguably prioritizing over his own life).

The love between these two is profound and beautiful and despite the contention it causes with Shaoshang (and indeed even to some degree because of that) I wish they had shown us more of it.

Interpreting What We Got

So...I end up reading Ziduan as gay, and particularly in love with Zisheng. Sure, they grew up in the palace together, but they kept their distance from one another so as not to sow discord between the palaces. I can read them as platonic best friends, but I struggle to rad them as brothers. As far as I remember, the only time either of them refers to the other as a brother is when feral Ziduan is storming the court with Shaoshang in episode 49, and he appeals to everyone to remember that Zisheng was raised among them, like a brother.

Imagining them as exes, who had a thing in their teens and even after ending that have remained best friends, is also a lot of fun.

I don't read Ziduan as all that angsty or pining—I see him as a very practical character. His temperament is so alike Zisheng's that it's easy to interpret that even if he is in love with him, if he thinks that Shaoshang is what Zisheng wants and she will make him happy, he is not going to stand in their way.

I would love to see a future where Shaoshang and Ziduan get to know each other and just agree to share Zisheng. (I couldn't resist hinting at that in the one fic I have written about this.)

Regardless of how we read Ziduan's love for Zisheng, as I see it, as of the end of the show, Shaoshang still stands between Zisheng and Ziduan, but Ziduan no longer holds this against her. He understands that Zisheng needs her to be happy, and that for the rest of his life, he will be devoted to her. Maybe on some level Ziduan even feels he owes Shaoshang this too, given how he promised her before going to rescue Zisheng from the side of the cliff, that he would make sure Zisheng apologized to her—and never did.

The only thing preventing all three of them happily being friends (or a throuple, or two consenting couples whose hypotenuse between Shaoshang and Ziduan is a queer platonic relationship, which is my shipping preference) is Shaoshang's (very justified!) distrust/distaste for Ziduan. Which I think could be mitigated, given time and effort. I want to see it mitigated.

One thing that has struck me on these repeated rewatches is the way that Ziduan is so upfront about his affection for Zisheng as soon as he is able to do so openly. It makes me wonder how much he has counted on having Zisheng at his side when he eventually secured the Crown Prince position, and how much it must pain him that Zisheng sacrificed his position in the palace to secure him that spot. (Though of course he would be able to see as well as we can that it is also Zisheng's penance for everything, including wronging Shaoshang.)

Anyway, I love Wen Ziduan so much.

#love like the galaxy #meta #third prince #wen ziduan #ling buyi #huo buyi #spoilers #ziduan #星汉灿烂 #月升沧海 #文子端 #zisheng #did anybody else spend hours and hours dissecting third prince scenes #where are the fmvs #where are the gif sets #where are the fics #shipping #interpretation

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raine-kai · 11 months

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Novel Wen Ziduan Has Issues

As you might know if you have seen anything I have posted here or written lately or talked about in the past month or so, I like Third Prince, or Wen Ziduan, from Love Like the Galaxy quite a lot.

What you might not know is that even though I liked him before I read the book, based on the drama alone, I like him even more that I read the book.

Let me be clear: novel Ziduan is a disaster.

For one thing, Yuan Shanjian's tendency to neg Shaoshang at every possible opportunity? That was Ziduan in the book. YSJ is a lot less directly offensive in his behavior toward Shaoshang, which makes him a lot more likable in the book. They still argue a lot, but he doesn't go out of his way to try to make her feel bad about herself. Meanwhlie, Ziduan only goes through one scene where he outright starts negging Shaoshang in the drama—and to be fair, this is episode 49 and he was having a really bad day that day, after having had a terrible day the day before as well—and she tells him off pretty well for it. He has a reason to talk to her that day, but otherwise he seems to mostly ignore her, or roll with whatever else is going on in the scene. Ziduan in the drama comes off as a foil of sorts to Shaoshang. They both care deeply for Huo Buyi, but while Ziduan has power in theory, he can do nothing to help Huo Buyi and is losing his mind (he behaves more erratically, more angrily and snappishly in that episode than we ever see him before or after) after the revenge. Shaoshang might not have power, but she has the keys to exonerating Huo Buyi, and she is exceedingly quiet and calm as she makes her case—both to Ziduan for her right to personhood, and to the court for Huo Buyi. By the end of this scene, we see Shaoshang share a warning with Ziduan, who bows to her and promises to bring Zisheng back, and make him apologize to her.

This is a far cry from the behavior of novel Ziduan, who takes every possible opportunity to point out how inferior Shaoshang is, especially relative to Zisheng.

He does eventually come to terms with the fact that Shaoshang and Zisheng are going to be together, in his own way... But not before being absolutely delighted to betroth Shaoshang to Yuan Shanjian, only to be deeply upset when Zisheng returns and wants her back. There's a whole scene where he demands to know why nobody told him that he would want her back, and rants about how poor of a match Shaoshang is for Zisheng, who deserves the best...even though he is just as dumb as she is, he admits toward the end.

I cannot articulate enough how much novel Ziduan comes across like a comphet gay boy trying to justify why he's mad that his best friend is dating someone by making it the girl's fault. Somehow.

I ship OT3 in the world of the drama, but I don't see how that could work in the novel world unless ZIduan does one hell of a lot of soulsearching.

The other day, I found the novel extras, and there was one for Ziduan, and OH BOY, I did not think this shit could get even funnier.

First off, this man is a misogynistic mess from the moment we get into his head. He says there are two kinds of women: virtuous and unvirtuous. And then he proceeds to list all the women in his life as various shades of unvirtuous. Empress Xuan? Very unvirtuous. His mother, Consort Yue? Extremely unvirtuous. His aunts and sisters? Never heard of the word virtue in their lives—except Second Sister, she's ok. (I have to assume this assessment is pre-time skip, because post time-skip Second Princess had apparently become less ladylike or something.) Xiao Yuanyi is also ok. Cheng Shaoshang is just the absolute worst.

So he sort of...has to approve of their betrothal (again) because it's what will make Huo Buyi happy and as we know, Ziduan really just wants Huo Buyi to be happy. (Although in this universe it's buried underneath so much negative vibes directed at Shaoshang that it can be easy to forget that.)

Shaoshang comes to talk to him, and she uses flattery over his dedication to justice over family (a love language between all 3 of them, I swear) to undercut his usual pattern of berating her. It works, until she's about to leave.

And then this happens:

The prince was very moved, and his tone could not help softening: "I am not afraid of being criticized by others, but only hope that the people of the world will live and work in peace and contentment, free from natural disasters and man-made disasters, so I will live up to the trust of the ancestors."

Originally, he wanted to scold the girl, but at this moment, the crown prince could not swear much, so he simply waved his hand: "Forget it, you can go back, take a good rest, and serve Zisheng carefully after marriage. Sigh, Over the years, Zisheng has really suffered a lot, you, you should treat him better."

Shaoshang agreed sincerely, and hurried out of the door. When she reached the courtyard, the prince suddenly called her to stop. Shaoshang looked back in a daze, and saw the prince raised his right hand, and then her shoulder hurt slightly, and when she looked down, it turned out to be a small stone. She was tongue-tied, and looked at the prince in disbelief—he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he actually threw stones at herself! The majestic crown prince actually threw stones at her!

The prince's brows and eyes are firm and resolute, and the perennial solemnity is swept away, as if he is ten years younger and suddenly returned to his naughty and troubled boyhood. He laughed heartily: "Okay, let's settle the matter now, you can go back and happily prepare for marriage!"

Shaoshang stamped her feet angrily, turned her head and left.

HE THREW A ROCK AT HER.

HE THREW A ROCK AT HER AND WAS HAPPY ABOUT IT.

And then after this scene, Ziduan's immediately thinking to himself about how he has to double their wedding gifts and hope they have a daughter he can marry to a son of his own.

THE AMOUNT OF DISASTER GAY ENERGY HERE IS STAGGERING.

Oh, about his wife--he does have a concubine. A cousin of his, selected by his uncle. He agreed to marry her because his uncle said so, and then the moment he stopped and thought about it, he realized how unvirtuous his wife is. She actually wants him to LIKE her, the gall of her!

Anyway, this man is a complete trainwreck and I adore it.

Mostly because the drama version exists as essentially a fix-it.

Speaking of which, who was it who decided to take Ziduan's "you-stole-the-man-I-am-not-aware-I'm-in-love-with-and-I'm-mad-about-it" energy and dropped it onto Yuan Shanjian, of all people? He's actually supposed to like Shaoshang... That might be the strangest adaptation decision, imo 😂😂😂

#love like the galaxy #third prince #wen ziduan #disaster gay #is this another meta #idk #im supposed to be sleeping btw #yes I love this misguided idiot #i want to put him in therapy

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raine-kai · 1 year

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On one hand....the English LLtG fanfic pool is very small and I could contribute more Shaoshang/Zisheng content as there is not enough. On the other hand, I want Zisheng/Third Prince and Shaoshang/Zisheng/Third Prince fics which don't exist at all unless I write them, and so far nobody has excommunicated me from the fandom yet so....maybe set down my insecurities and write more of those.

#love like the galaxy #wen ziduan #cheng shaoshang #huo buyi #ling buyi #fanfic #third prince #lltg #brainrot central

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raine-kai · 11 months

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Mapping out the ages of the Emperor's children in Love Like the Galaxy

For an AU fic I'm writing, I felt the need to map out the ages of the emperor's ten sons and five daughters from Love Like the Galaxy, and thought that maybe perhaps this would be of interest to others, too. I'll start by laying out all the info I have amassed from canon, the particular constraints for elements that I have decided matter to me personally, and then I'll lay out 2 possible age schemes I have mapped out--1 if there are twins involved, and 1 if there are single births only.

You would think, if any of the princes or princesses addressed each other, the forms of address would give you a clue to their relative ages, and all that would remain is to just figure out specifically how many years lie between each, but alas...the only ones I have been able to find are between pairs whose age relationship is not in question in any of my age maps.

But if you have info that I've missed, please do tell me, I would love to have more info.

First, the info we have from the book canon goes as follows:

Xuan Shen'an has five sons and three daughters.

Yue Heng has four sons and two daughters, though she also has one son who died prematurely (he is not counted in the numbers); the birth after his was a princess.

Xu Meiren, the maid who became a concubine, has just one child, the Fifth Prince.

Second Princess and Third Princess are Yue Heng's, all the other princesses are Xuan Shen'an's.

First Prince (or Crown Prince, or Zikun) and Second Prince are Xuan Shen'an's.

Third Prince (Ziduan) and Fourth Prince are Yue Heng's.

Fifth Princess is the only child born after the war ended 13-14 years prior to canon. (This is info from the drama, and I do not remember if it corresponded to the novel, but I'm going with it.)

Luo Jitong mentions that pre-time skip, all the princes younger than the Fifth Prince were too young to consider as prospective husbands. So they all must have been in their teens, probably skewing younger.

Zisheng entered the palace 13 years prior to canon, and is called Shiyi Lang (十一郎, Eleventh Young Master), meaning that by the time he entered the palace, the tenth prince had to already have been born.

The only way I can find to assess the age of the Second Princess relative to her brothers is via her friend Qu Lingjun, who is her friend. It's mentioned that Yue Heng would have loved to have Qu Lingjun as her own daughter-in-law (via Ziduan), but the age was inappropriate--which suggests to me that the Second Princess is older than Ziduan.

Zikun and Qu Lingjun have been married to their respective spouses for six years in the novel, ten years in the drama. This means they have to have been of marriageable age by some definition 6-10 years ago depending on the canon.

Additional constraints from me, for my fic:

Due to the way the Emperor and Yue Heng deferred to Xuan Shen'an, it makes sense to imagine that they would not have started trying for a child until after Shen'an has safely given birth to at least one son. This means that Yue Heng's eldest is likely 1-2 years younger than Zikun (a point which is relevant, because if I chose to map 1st princess as elder than Zikun, then I wouldn't see Yue Heng being able to have her first child for 3-4 years after Shen'an started having children).

Ziduan must be Zisheng's age or older. In fact, it makes the most sense if he's a few years older.

That said, Ziduan and Zikun can't be THAT much older than Zisheng, or it makes no sense why he is such a trusted friend and advisor.

Fifth Prince is probably 20 or 21, and given the kurfuffle his conception caused in the palace, it makes sense to imagine that there are no births in the harem for some time after his.

SO. This is a birth order, with only single births. Ages listed are at the time of the drama canon, when Shaoshang is 15 and Zisheng is 21:

First Prince (Zikun, 28, born to Shen'an)

First Princess (26, born to Shen'an)

Second Princess (25, born to Yue Heng)

Second Prince ( 24, born to Shen'an)

Third Prince (Ziduan, 23, born to Yue Heng)

Fourth Prince (21, born to Yue Heng)

Fifth Prince (20, born to Xu Meiren)

Sixth Prince (18, born to Shen'an)

[unnumbered prince born to Yue Heng who did not survive]

Seventh Prince (17, born to Shen'an)

Third Princess (16, born to Yue Heng)

Fourth Princess (16, born to Shen'an)

Eighth Prince (15, born to Yue Heng)

Ninth Prince (15, born to Shen'an)

Tenth Prince (14, born to Yue Heng)

Fifth Princess (12-13, born to Shen'an)

And this is the birth order of you allow for occasional twins. Again, ages mapped to drama canon:

First Prince (Zikun, 26, born to Shen'an)

First Princess and Second Prince (24, born to Shen'an)

Second Princess (24, born to Yue Heng)

Third Prince (Ziduan) and Fourth Prince (22, born to Yue Heng)

Fifth Prince (20, born to Xu Meiren)

Sixth Prince (18, born to Shen'an)

[unnumbered prince born to Yue Heng who did not survive]

Third Princess (16, born to Yue Heng)

Seventh Prince and Fourth Princess (16, born to Shen'an)

Eighth Prince and Ninth Prince (14, born to Yue Heng)

Tenth Prince (14, born to Shen'an)

Fifth Princess (12-13, born to Shen'an)

Aaaaaaaaand bonus round!! My fic needs aside, what do I think would ACTUALLY make the most sense for their canon ages, given what we know? Here's a mapping with only single births:

First Prince (Zikun, 26, born to Shen'an)

First Princess (24, born to Shen'an)

Second Princess (24, born to Yue Heng)

Second Prince (23, born to Shen'an)

Third Prince (Ziduan, 21, born to Yue Heng)

Fourth Prince (20, born to Yue Heng)

Fifth Prince (19, born to Xu Meiren)

Sixth Prince (17, born to Shen'an)

[unnumbered prince born to Yue Heng who did not survive]

Seventh Prince (16, born to Shen'an)

Third Princess (16, born to Yue Heng)

Fourth Princess (15, born to Shen'an)

Eighth Prince (15, born to Yue Heng)

Ninth Prince (14, born to Shen'an)

Tenth Prince (14, born to Yue Heng)

Fifth Princess (13, born to Shen'an)

Look at that breakneck birthing schedule toward the end... 😱I'm not going to add a mapping for multiple births, because at this point I feel like (in the absence of additional information that I've missed, which is definitely a possibility) if you have fic needs, you can adapt them to suit.

Anyway, hope this helped somebody other than myself... 😂

#love like the galaxy #wen ziduan #wen zikun #third prince #emperor wen #yue heng #xuan shen'an #lltg #lltg meta #?#what do you even call these bouts of obsessing over details #fanfic #age mapping #just watch #I missed something major from the novel and it's all wrong actually #and I'll have to start over

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raine-kai · 11 months

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Several times now, I have tried to write fics with Third Prince (Ziduan) as related--by blood--to Zisheng or Shaoshang. All of them have ended up taking on some flavor of OT3, which is awkward for me since I didn't intend to stray into pseudo-incest territory, until I have had to find a workaround or scrap them.

I feel like the fact that this keeps happening is testament to how much, no matter how the show tells us that Zisheng and Ziduan are "secretly best friends", once you start unpacking that relationship in enough detail to try to write it, it becomes harder and harder to take it as strictly friendship.

Zisheng is extremely feral. He never masks his feelings. His crush on Shaoshang is self-evident from the moment they meet in episode 1, and once he sees her at the lantern festival in episode 6, the deal is sealed. Every single time that he and Shaoshang are in the same space, Zisheng's entire body is oriented toward her...with the exceptions being times when he's pretending to be scolded by the Emperor, or when he was carrying out his revenge and determined to abandon her (but accepted her help anyway, until they got stranded on that cliff).

Honestly, the number of women on this show who try to attract this man's attention when he just projects zero interest in anybody but Shaoshang—even is known to attack women who pursue him relentlessly—is...pretty astonishing and probably my biggest complaint with the story. 😂 (I feel like the women who want him are there to show us what a desirable man he is for Shaoshang, but...honestly, I think the show works just as well even without that element. That said, I do have a deep appreciation for the way that once we enter the second season, most of the "romantic rivals" are explicitly shown to only be interested in Zisheng because of his power and status.)

But even when it comes to pretending, despite all the lies and secrets, Zisheng doesn't actually lie about his feelings for the people around him--with Ziduan being the one and only exception. The reason why we are told he hates Ling Yi for most of the run of the show is a lie—not only a lie, but in fact Ling Yi's cruel divorce and abandonment of Junhua was probably a blessing for him and Junhua, because this gives them an excuse to not play nice with the man without getting suspicious.

Because Zisheng doesn't really have friends other than Ziduan, we don't really have a template for what their relationship will look like now that it can be out in the open, either. The show gives us not one single scene where they just...talk and interact naturally. Post-reveal, most of their scenes together include the emperor, who is the one leading the conversation. The exception to this is the damsel in distress rescue scene in episodes 55 and 56, where Ziduan panics over the notion that Zisheng will be dumped by Shaoshang again for wasting time saving him, and Zisheng responds by insisting he trusts Shaoshang to handle herself. (I have so many feelings about this, too many to unpack just yet which is why I haven't gif'd it yet.)

Zisheng's closest relationships other than with Shaoshang and Ziduan, are probably the following: A'Fei and A'Qi (his subordinates), Junhua and Uncle Cui (his trauma-sharing family), and the Emperor (his parental figure and sovereign). We see how gentle and caring he is with Junhua, as well as with A'Fei and A'Qi. With Uncle Cui and the Emperor, we see a far less emotive side of him, defiant and decisive and always loyal.

What is fascinating about Zisheng's relationship with Ziduan is that it matches up with none of the other relationships we see. Zisheng is never gentle in the way he handles Ziduan. Zisheng betrays Ziduan at least once to protect Shaoshang. In principle, probably we could look at his relationship to Ziduan as closest to what he shares with the Emperor, if without the same level of deference. But above all, this is the one relationship where Zisheng is able to convince everyone that he dislikes someone that, in fact, he likes very much.

The show doesn't even allow for an interpretation that by choosing to prioritize Shaoshang over that friendship, the friendship fell apart. Even though we don't see the scenes of them together, they clearly spend time together. Ziduan is with Zisheng already when we see him arrive to reunite with the Emperor. Ziduan has kept up to date with the gossip about Zisheng during his exile, and clearly has feelings about it.

The show told us they were secret best friends, so on the surface, it seems like in an AU setting Ziduan could be Zisheng's cousin, or brother, or something. But, ahem, as a person who has tried and failed to do this several times I advise going about it with care, because the more I have written them the less I am able to read it as a fully platonic friendship. Even if it is one-sided on the part of Ziduan—and here I struggle to fully expand my thoughts because I love him so much that it hurts to imagine his devotion to a friend who is entirely indifferent, and maybe only sees him as the most suitable future sovereign—there is an undercurrent of something in the way that Zisheng treats him. Maybe it's the trying to hold at arm's length a friend whose crush on him he doesn't want to unpack. Maybe it's affection of his own that is deeper than he knows what to do with.

For some reason the show couldn't even give us a shot of Zisheng really looking at Ziduan, though there are signs that he is far more at ease when Ziduan is around. The scene in episode 51, where Ziduan comes into the court to reveal the treachery of the Zuo family, for example. Zisheng has not reacted to anybody else the way he reacts to Ziduan's presence. The same goes for the proposal scene in episode 24 and the caning scene in episode 38. Ziduan's presence is part of what allows Zisheng to be as audacious as he is in these scenes--because Ziduan is secretly backing him up, though it doesn't look like this at the time.

Also, before I close out this ramble, I would like to highlight the fact that the only reason Zisheng did anything about the Luo Jitong situation was because it was upsetting Ziduan. He's known she's a problem for years. He's been perfectly happy to ignore her and let her make a fool of herself. But Ziduan gets cranky about it, and instantly Zisheng is drawing the line and making sure Luo Jitong knows it.

Add to this Ziduan's sheer meanness to Shaoshang in the book that reads as jealousy, and you get...a mess.

#love like the galaxy #third prince #wen ziduan #ling buyi #huo buyi #cheng shaoshang #ot3 #another rant that turned into a meta #meta #spoilers

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