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weia-yo · 3 years

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hey it's undertale theory time!

this is heavily thanks to @drundertalescum for giving me brain food with the idea that when toriel mentions how asgore could've crossed the barrier with one soul she wasn't talking about the first of the 6 humans he killed, she was talking about Chara. here's the massive stream of thought that came from that.

what this theory centers around is actually not specifically that, but a question i've had for the 5 years i've been in this fandom, which is Why asgore and toriel decided to have asriel when they did? as we all know boss monsters only age when they have a child, so asgore and toriel having asriel meant that they were going to die sometime after asriel grew up. but why Then? why 1000-ish years after monsters were sealed underground and not any point before or after?

(part 1: the prophecy)

what we know is that at the time the monsters all lived in Home aka what's now the Ruins, sealed behind a door that can't be opened from the outside. this was to protect themselves from any possible human who decided to cross the barrier and kill them all. we also know about the deltarune prophecy, that the Angel, the one who has seen the surface, will make the underground go empty. we Also only know of three monsters who were mentioned to have seen the surface; asgore, toriel, and gerson.

And Another Thing, gerson mentions that lately people have started seeing the prophecy as being about an angel of death who will kill them all. but the thing is, the dude's Old. he's literally older than monsterkind's time underground. "Lately" to him could very easily be within the last few hundred years.

what i'm getting at is, i think the belief was that asgore, toriel, or gerson (or all three) were going to be the angel who would free them, but sometime during their stay in the ruins that belief shifted to the angel being a human who would go into the ruins and kill them all.

what i think happened was, gerson began to age. he's not immortal like asgore and toriel, he wouldn't live forever. i imagine when that realization hit asgore and toriel they had a long talk about the future. if the angel really was about a human who would kill them all, then asgore and toriel staying alive on the basis that maybe they were the angel who would free monsters was just giving them false hope.

they weren't going to do anything drastic, but taking away their own immortality, while giving monsterkind a new ruler without any expectation of freeing them, would mark a new era. for almost a thousand years they had hope that they would be free, but maybe it was better to just accept that this is their permanent home now and make the best of it. yes the prophecy likely said a human was going to kill them all but humans had left them alone for all this time and possibly forgotten all about them, they were behind a door that couldn't even be opened from the outside, staying in Home meant they were safe from humanity.

and then chara fell and everything went upside down.

(part 2: One Soul)

people have theorized that chara and asriel's friendship is the entire reason monsters lost their fear, left the ruins and went to live in the rest of the underground in the first place and i think that's most likely true, but what if before then asgore and toriel had a discussion? after all chara was a child but so was asriel, so was every child living underground, doomed to die without ever seeing the sun. chara was a human with a human soul. would killing chara be worth a chance at freedom?

we don't know if they had that conversation but we know the result; Absolutely Not. it's not worth it. it's not worth it to kill an innocent child for their freedom.

but i think they still saw within chara a chance for monsterkind to live on the surface. after all, toriel and asgore were aging, and when they died their soul would remain long enough for a human to take it and leave the barrier. i think they were hoping this would allow for chara to leave and find souls outside to bring back and break the barrier while a now fully-grown asriel would be able to lead the monsters on the surface to coexist with humanity, using his friendship with chara as an example to all.

of course this didn't end up happening because everything went wrong. monsterkind's hopes for freedom and an era of peace on the surface were all dashed, the prince of monsters was killed by the humans of chara's village, all the wounds from the monster-human war that were thought healed were torn open.

both asgore and toriel were understandably traumatized by this and both their reactions were completely understandable; asgore saw this as evidence that peace with humans was impossible and declared war, toriel saw asgore and monsterkind turning their backs on her children's legacy and decided to leave them behind. but it's what happened afterwards where i think they lost their way.

asgore lost his way because he decided to give monsterkind false hope. you walk through the underground and hear monsters talking about their lives; they're not happy. there are so many problems in the underground and it seems like few people are working to fix them; any time the problems are brought up they're either laughed off or amended with a "but it's ok because soon we will be free".

toriel also lost her way, by looking at the scenario where the humans went to asgore and fought him, which could only end in either of them dying, and choosing to not intervene.

the pacifist ending results in, among other things, toriel realizing (likely after facing frisk and finding their determination to not kill her) that she was wrong and that she couldn't let this fight happen.

i used to think this bit of the game was the one part i disliked, bc it didn't make sense for me for toriel to lecture asgore for not taking the first soul that dropped, but it never occurred to me until drundertalescum pointed it out that she very likely was talking about Chara.

toriel came here after realizing it wasn't worth it to let asgore die even if it meant the human could go free. and she reminds asgore what he seemed to have forgot, that it wasn't worth sacrificing anyone for their freedom. it wasn't worth it when the child in question was chara, it's not worth it when the child in question is frisk. and it's especially not worth it when asgore clearly doesn't want to hurt anyone, when he doesn't really want freedom, and is only doing this for a thin veneer of hope for monsterkind.

and asgore, who in the neutral run decides it would be better for him to die and for the human to take his soul, realizes that she's right. that it wasn't right to sacrifice anyone for their freedom, that it wasn't right to keep monsters barely going with this empty tragic "hope", and that it wasn't right to give up his own life even if it meant freeing frisk and through them potentially monsterkind as well.

#undertale #asgore #toriel #asriel #undertale theory #chara #frisk #long post

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squeiky · 4 years

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UNDERWILD- possible spoiler territory!(hehe) its just some info of Tori And flowey. Along with some character desgins i doodled.

Feel free to guess how UNDERWILD is gonna play out.

Heres a bit of info (not to spoilery) on how these characters are designed to be.

Ps: UNDERWILD is EXTREMLY and HEAVILY inspired by horror tale and underfell. So you'll be see alot of... Similar attributes, along with my own. Even the designs might look a bit similar, so dont go bashing on me okay? You've been warned.

Flowey-

kill or be killed motto, but cant decide on which one he wants to go with. He believes he's Leaning more towards "kill" but tbh, look at that freindly smirk, and teary eyes, messed up face and drooly leaves. Does he really look like a sadistic killer too you?. Yeah, flowey thinks he does. He thinks he looks just as crazy as every other monster does.

his LV doesn’t support his belief that he kills mercilessly. he can barely kill a child, neither less anyone else. (during his resets he did kill only a few monsters. regretted it alot.)

smug

due to papyrus’s encouraging words, he has a bit of confidence.

he almost always uses his creepy face. though, its not as scary as the other faces around the forest.

turqouise pupils.

on the left, is complelty ripped petels. on the right, is slighty wilty petals.

he alwasy has sad eyes with a big (fake) happy grin. (he’s not the happiest.)

his threats never get backed up.

hums his own theme song. and rocks a lullaby. but can’t sing other things. so he’s pretty much a hummerbird lullaby flower baby.

bruises/dirt/scratch marks on his cheeks and forehead

afraid of froggits. (will kill them on sight, if he fears for his life)

hes a impatient little brat.

not afraid to toss insults at you.

has a little goat like snoot. (a slight asriel apperance)

likes napstablook! by alot actually! and nice-cream! and pie! and chara! (platonically)

dislikes frogs, bees, bugs in general, sans, being a flower, and eggs. (no apparent reason, he just doesn’t like eggs. like a cat to cucumbers but flowey to.. egg...)

tried to eat froggit’s leg. honestly, he hangs around papyrus too much. he’s pretty sure he tried eating a mushroom too. and a snail. and a- im gonna stop there, or this list of weird things- FLOWEY DONT EAT DIRT WHAT ARE YOU DOING?! NO STOP THAT!! - are never going to end. o and there he goes again

EXTREMEY curious. (almost reckless childlike curiousity)

Toriel-

i like to call her TORE-IEL hehe.

Her robe/dress is all torn up.. Her eyes have bags from the crying alone in her room.

a dirty red robe/dress, with a greyish sleeve. and a symbol in the middle.

extremely isolated. (literally locked up in her room like 24/7. alot worse than og toriel. similiar to horrortale’s toriel.)

“who’s sans?”

yellow-ish horns and teeth (has many rows of sharp teeth)

red eyes whites (pitch black pupils)

a tad bit hunched.

goat hooves!! and big old claws.

she isn’t such a good mom figure. she been so alone for so long.. a itte too long... she tries everything to keep frisk down there.

....”where is everybody?” they are hiding. from toriel. (in case she goes “wild”. and plus she’s powerful)

got that dragon breath yo. (fire breath, instead of flying flames.)

afraid of herself, because of that she is more distant to the children than a og toriel is. (she doesn’t even hold their hands :( )

“burnt pies anyone? or.... chocolate? or... we have some lettuce in the back you can eat. oh, yeah i see. your right, you can’t eat any of this, can you?” toriel is a bit... lacking in practice.

gives you a soft, weak smile.

she loves you, has trouble showing it.

sometimes drools when she stares at something too long. ( a cute little drool. not to excessive.)

a tad selfish.

q-questionable m-methods....

BOOKS FOR DAYS YAY!!! and facts about snails... she reads too fast.

on rare occasions, when she hiccups she might do a goat noise.

the worst jokes get her going, that is sad. like im talking worse than og sans’s. to the point of “why did the chicken cross the road? to get to the otherside!” makes her go absolutely high on laughter. instead of a petite giggle or a snort, she acts like she hadn’t heard that in a millennia.

“hi. umm.. greetings?.. hello?...goodday?” she hasn’t had a conversation in... awhile

“ugh, tori what are you saying?! your suppose to say-” she talks to herself in public. alot. calls herself nicknames too. (she likes her made up nicknames, like tortor or tori. or tutu. she even called her self butterscotch, or sweetpea. its a little weird with the nicknames.)

[Link to papyrus and sans info]

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whogirl42 · 4 years

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Episode 8. Oh wowee, episode 8.

Warning: I have a lot of thoughts and feelings because Marisa and Asriel finally interacted onscreen and it was glorious.

Let’s begin.

We all know Marisa has a... let's say, complicated relationship with her daemon. At his point, it’s no surprise to see Marisa abusing him in one form or the other. But we’ve never seen it like this before. Earlier times it was as a warning to behave or a slap as a form of punishment. This? This is something new. Marisa is gripping her daemon’s skin to the point of pain, a point so painful that she is closing her eyes and wincing. There’s no pretending it doesn’t hurt her too. This is self ham at its most explicit.

What has he done to deserve such treatment? What could have driven her to this? What did we see Marisa doing in the scene we saw her last?

Marisa is bracing herself for having to kill Asriel, one of the only two people in the world she cares about. Her entire self is rebelling at the very thought.

"What did he do to you?" Macphail asks, and it might have been her asking herself that question. "What power he still exerts. I knew you. An ambitious young woman with a good marriage well on her way to quite some position, and then that man came along and you melted."

That won’t happen again. Marisa is far from that stupid girl who made the worst mistake of her life over a crush. She steels herself for what she needs to do. She is sure in her convictions and no one, least not that man, will stop her.

Below, armoured bears are readying for an attack.

Lyra is probably still with the Gyptions. There's no reason to think Lyra would be down there below. Maybe the possibility of Lyra being there doesn't even cross her mind. Except Iofer is dead. After an armoured bear helped Lyra escape Bolvanger. And now there are armoured bears readying for an attack against the Magisterium. Lyra could be down there.

"Open fire," Marisa says. It's chaos down there, it's hard to see anything. But maybe she spots one bear running away. Maybe she spots a familiar red hat on its rider and sighs in relief. Maybe she berates herself for almost hurting her daughter again.

Or maybe Lyra isn't even on her radar, too consumed with thoughts of Asriel.

Marisa knew Asriel was doing something was Dust. She understands from his work that it has something to do with an energy discharge. The penny drops, and fear takes hold of Marisa.

He wouldn't. Would he? But the numbers all add up. Marisa isn't beyond hurting children and they're the same, Asriel and her, they always have been. He'd enjoy besting Marisa at something, succeeding where she couldn't. He couldn't. But who was to say how far his convictions went? Lyra shouldn't be anywhere near there. There's no reason for her to be there.

Still, Marisa is on edge. She demands Thorold tell her what Asriel is planning, even as she seems to have grasped the basics. She tries frightening him, appealing to the faith I'm surprised he'd even have after years of working for Asriel. Thorold lowers the gun but still doesn't say anything. Marisa tries a different tactic.

"Thorold, I should throw you to the wolves. But I won't. I’ll tell them that Father Macphail is staying here to analyse what we’ve found, and then I’ll take the troops to pursue Asriel and you will leave. He’s always been so reckless. He’s never treated any of us well, you included."

Did Thorold tell her anything off-screen? We don't know. There's nothing to suggest that they talk any more after this scene. Which means that Marisa - always in control - Coulter let her guard down, let herself seem vulnerable about Asriel, without any clear gain. This isn't a ploy to get something. This isn't her being emotional because Lyra's there. This is just her being emotional. For the first time in god knows how long, she's going to see Asriel again. And Thorold has been working with Asriel for years. He probably knew about the affair as it happened, one of the only people in the know. Both Thorold and Marisa know Asriel intimately, and there's a camaraderie to that.

I can't not mention Marisa's remarks about Asriel throughout the season.

"He's a failure of a man and a failure of a father." (1x02)

"He thought he could protect you. Another one of his ridiculous ideas. Couldn't protect a painting if it was drawn on the wall." (1x02)

"[About giving up Lyra] And Asriel had ideas on what was best." (1x06)

“And if there's one thing that man doesn't need, it's more toys to do damage with.” (1x06)

“He’s always been so reckless. He’s never treated any of us well.” (1x08)

And that’s probably barely scracthig the surface. We have no way of knowing how long it’s been since they last saw each other? Marisa told Lyra that she sometimes bumps into Asriel in the Arctic Institute, but there’s nothing to suggest that actually happened. For all we know, this could be the first time they speak since Asriel’s trial 12 years ago.

Marisa approaches him. He's sprouting out heresy like he always did, but she can't ignore it or roll her eyes or find better uses for his mouth. He's shattering her world, promising the end of everything she's worked for, everything she believes in.

Damn him, he has the audacity to smile.

This is the end of the Magisterium, that's what he said. The sun of another world. "Come,” he says.

She doesn't want to, but she can't help it. Whether it’s a miracle, an abomination; she is first and foremost a scholar, and this is extraordinary.

Something like peace settles between them, but Asriel is still saying things she does not want to hear. "Marisa, come with me," he says, like it's that easy.

Marisa's religious beliefs haven't been given much attention until now. She's played with the Magisterium, manipulating them to get what she wants and not giving a damn to what they say if when doesn't suit her. In the previous episode, she told Father Macphail the Magisterium has her devotion, but that didn't ring true. She cares about her experiments. That's her priority. Everything else is background noise.

Marisa fully believes that Dust in sin. She said it herself to Lyra in the Daemon Cages.

“Dust is not a good thing. Grown-ups are infected so deeply that it's too late for them. Condemned to a life of sin, guilt and regret. This is for a better future, a better life. [...] At the age that we call puberty, an age you'll come into very soon, darling, daemons bring all sorts of troublesome thoughts and feelings.”

She's trying to create a better world, one where humans aren't plagued with temptation and guilt. It's easy to blame this on the consequences of her affair with Asriel, and I do believe that fuels some of it. But to solely credit him for her motivations does her character a disservice. It took three-quarters of the season to touch on what drives her to these extremes, and I very much hope that they continue to delve into it in season 2.

Okay. This moment. This moment this moment this moment. This moment. Sorry, my brain loops and glitches whenever I see or think of this moment, because this moment.

This moment.

It's best with audio because then you can hear the way Ruth Wilson says Marisa’s faint protests. She's breathless, confused, torn, unsure. Everything she hasn't been up till now. Ruth Wilson is out queen our lord and saviour.

And Asriel, our favourite slut, is so thirsty for her, leaning in as she pulls away. It's been years and finally, he can kiss her again and he doesn't want to ever stop. His experiment just changed things forever, could change them forever. He and Marisa are the same, and he loved her years ago and he still loves her now, and if everything is changing then maybe finally they can get their happy ending.

Marisa was able to convince Macphail to let her come along because she knows Asriel better than anyone else. The same is true vice versa.

“Lie about whatever you want. Lie about the Oblation Board. The Magisterium. Lie about the girl. But do not lie about your ambition your work or who you truly are. You used to want to change the world. Then leave the Magisterium. Come with me, and we will change them all.”

He talks between small kisses, tempting her, teasing her, seducing her. Despite her snapping remark at Macphail, Marisa does in fact melt. This will work, they can be together again.

But there's the one thing Asriel didn't expect. The one thing that Marisa herself hadn't expected.

But I love Lyra. Where did this love come from? I don't know; it came to me like a thief in the night, and now I love her so much my heart is bursting with it.

Rewatching the scene, you can see the moment she makes her decision. She leans her head back just enough so she can look at Asriel.

Then leans back in and closes her eyes. Lets herself bask in the moment, lets herself feel the love and safety and rightness of being with him envelop her. When she opens her eyes, when she pulls away and speaks the words that will put them on separate paths, her resolution is clear. She's resigned to her decision and its consequences.

And Asriel could have debated theology and politics until the end of time, if that's what it took to have her again. He can't argue this.

And so she leaves. And he lets her. And the two of them are just so unexpectedly soft with each other my heart can't take it.

Where's the furious fight? The cutting remarks? The bitter resentment pushed down all these years finally showing its ugly face? Where's the dysfunctional madness?

"Ah, those two. In a fight they're lethal. Around each other, they melt." - Richelle Mead, The Golden Lily.

Part of me is disappointed we missed out on that beautiful angst, the kind we'd probably see if they spent longer together, but another part of me loves it. Because they cut through the bullshit. With others maybe they'd put on an act, but it's just them. And they know each other. They'd see through the other's presences in a heartbeat. The whole scene is so intimate, so honest, they almost convince me they could be healthy. And that's the tragedy of them, I think. They're so alike, two sides of the same coin. They understand each other on such a deep level no amount of time apart makes a difference. In another life, they would work. They should work. But this is the reality they live in.

Confession time.

I have not read the books. I have no intention of reading the books, at least not the parts I haven't seen onscreen yet. The reason is that after episode 3, I picked up the first book, caught up to where I was on the show, and realised I enjoyed the show better. I'd rather experience the twists and turns first on the platform that I prefer, without having them spoiled first on a platform that just doesn't evoke the same emotional response. Please don't pelt tomatoes at me!

I vaguely knew the plot of the Golden Compass from the movie I half saw years ago, and from general knowledge. Going forth, I'm mostly blind. I know bits and pieces from Tumblr that I can't quite escape, (I.e: the quote from the books I used above that I've seen in multiple gifsets), and unfortunately, I already know Masriel's fate. The journey getting there? No clue.

Which is exciting.

I've understood that the show is delving much more into Maria's psyche than the books, and that her revelation that she loves Lyra has come earlier. I don't know what it means going forth, if there will be changes from the books or if it will stay the same for the most part. What I do know, is that I can't wait to see what happens next.

Marisa refused Asriel because of Lyra, but Lyra left their world. Next season, I'm sure Marisa will be just as ruthless and determined to get her back, that will probably result with her aligning with the Magisterium once more.

I'd love to see her find a way to once again place the blame on Asriel, but as we've seen, her bitterness and resentment tend to fade away when faced with the man himself. Maybe it'll be easier to cling onto now the novelty of seeing him again after so long has worn off. But I honestly don't know how it will go when they next see each other. The softness of this scene took me by surprise, just as each of them always does individually. One thing's for sure, their connection isn't going anywhere.

But neither is the reality they live in. The Magisterium. It'll be interesting to see just how deep her loyalties go because the show did a great job in showing me that she'll choose Lyra over practically anything, but like I said, it hasn't talked much about her religious convictions.

See, that isn't what I'd expect to hear from the truly devout. It's part of her power-play with Macphail, yes, but it doesn't scream religious fanatic.

I want next season to explore that side of her. Ruth is a fantastic actress and would portray the inner turmoil perfectly. But I need to believe there's a chance she won't choose Lyra. I need to be convinced in her conviction, to honesty fear that she's gone off the ledge. I love that Lyra is her weak spot, I love that in her own twisted way she believes she's putting Lyra first. But she's not just a mother. She's not just a scorned lover. She is Marisa fucking Coulter, cesspit of moral filth, mother of all evil, and I need to see her go dark.

Yes, darker than smiling as she attacks the daughter she loves, darker than killing a boy with her bare hands, darker than kidnapping and experimenting on children even as they continue to die. I want her to repulse me with her actions. I want her to cross every line imaginable. I want her completely unredeemable. And then have her love for her child override all those convictions.

I have high demands. I have high expectations. I have full confidence Ruth Wilson can deliver. I'm really hoping the writers and producers do too.

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everythingmagick · 6 years

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Review of “His Dark Materials” and “The Amber Spyglass” by Phillip Pullman

Well... With long reads like this, if they are any good, you get taken on a pretty long ride as you make it through all three installments... So I have a review... Mostly of the last book... Spoiler alert if you plan on reading... But if you have already read them, please share your thoughts! =)

The series was absolutely terrific as a whole. The ideas, questions and imagery Pullman proposes are exciting, beautiful and at times frighteningly thought provoking. The trilogy focuses on two main characters: the near adolescent Lyra and Will, but their journey and challenge is one of universal (or multiversal) intrigue. Pullman is clearly science minded and mentions particle physics almost as much as theology while we discover a plan to overthrow the perils of organized religion, and even "God" himself for the apparent human rights violations they have imposed throughout the ages; namely denying people their most innate human desires (sex, curious thought and other sinful behavior). I am an adult and consider myself agnostic, but I was raised Methodist and Souther Baptist. Even now those thoughts are somewhat trepidatious and yet completely captivating.

And yet in the final installment, when all of these incredible ideas have been proposed, things fall a bit short.

The final battle we had been preparing for through the first two volumes was nearly absent. Pullman briefly explains the monumental war in a few pages, and Metatron and the Authority go down as quickly. All the build up of "immense forges" for new machinery and "intention crafts" barely get a chance to land on the pages before the story moves toward its ending. Furthermore, "the one thing the fallen angels didn't have in the old battle and why they lost the first time" was the knife "The God Killer". Yet, the knife was never used physically in the final battle at all. Why was it even called that? We could say because of its ability to cut into different worlds, it could indirectly be "The God Killer" but that is stretching what feels seamless at other times.

In "The Amber Spyglass" the excitement of the ideas Pullman first proposed never got to reach an end that was even close to the original thrill of the promise of possibilities. We were only shown brief glimpses of the wonder we were so hoping for and that Pullman had fed us so fully in the first installments. Witnessing the Authority in his final state was provocative and thrilling but nothing was offered to satisfy the appetite that remained after the initial description. We didn't learn very much else about the multiverse or the state of this story's reality as it felt we had been promised over and over. We got right up to the moment and then never really got the Authority's perspective (or Metatron's) other than the second hand information we previously had from members of Asriel's army. And finally, although incredibly adventurous and exhilarating as a whole series, nothing really changed in the world after these momentous events took place. When we were excited by Asriel saying he would make death die, he nor Lyra really put an end to death at all, they just made it final and real. Now Dust would stop flowing out of the worlds but we aren't really sure if the Dust leak or the oppression of the Authority was the real problem to begin with. Even if we say they were both the problem, the world is essentially returned back to the way it was with minimal changes to the old system that could have more simply come about by a real world social movement. The ride of this tale warranted more. The story does finish with some heartfelt, wonderfully emotional moments of being torn by personal desires and the reality of what has to be, and offers hope and positive possibilities in the days to come, but the incredible wonder, frightful thrill, and moments of fundamentally challenging the paradigm of human belief systems in the first two installments has been substituted somewhat for a focus on classic human emotion; done very well, but done very well many times before. It was the former coupled with the latter that really made Pullman's writing shine. Still, two big thumbs up for the trilogy =)

#amber spyglass #amberspyglass #his dark materials #hisdarkmaterials #phillip pullman #phillippullman #review

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