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anamericangirl · 2 years

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Hello, I’m the same pro choice anon who made the bodily autonomy argument! Couple of things to address actually,

“Personhood is not a philosophical concept”

It actually is and you kinda admitted yourself in your argument. It’s a legal concept. And if you want to be consistent in that argument, you would also have to admit that if a fetus has personhood ( which is what you are arguing it has ) then that would also mean a single-celled human zygote would have a right to sue in court, have a right to own and inherit property ect. Having a right to own or inherit property not just after birth but since conception, which would require a probate of the zygote's estate if it failed to implant in the mother's uterine lining and was passed out with the menses?And would then require a funeral, and a proper burial? If the law suddenly just defined an unborn human as a "person” that would be the case. But anyways, that’s not the main core of my argument so let’s move on.

“People who believed personhood could be granted, didn’t grant it to slaves and Jews.”

Okay, first of all. I was dreading you would make this infamous argument that pro lifers love to make, I don’t think you want to bring up slavery or the holocaust in your argument. Not only is it incredibly disingenuous but in doing so, you have to take in the fact that these slaves were autonomous beings before they were forcing them into slavery. In fact, they had to take away their autonomy in order to make them slaves. To compare slaves, fully autonomous people, to a fetus who doesn’t have its own autonomy, no agency , not even a fully developed body yet inside of the womb of the autonomous being is not the route I think you want to take. And then the other question is, who’s autonomy is the one being invaded in? The pregnant person was there first. The pregnant person is the one with its own autonomy. The pregnant person is the one sustaining its own homeostasis, not the fetus who is only taking from that body. I really don’t think you want to compare something that has caused so much generational trauma to the medical procedure of removing a non sentient fetus.

If we are going to compare a slave to anyone in this conversation, it would be the pregnant person who’s bodily resources are being taken away without their consent ( With the addition that slave owners forced slaves to give birth as well, pregnant enslaved women were more costly to buyers. )

“Also, it's very important to know that the fetus is not infringing on the mother merely by existing. It's existing exactly as it's supposed to.”

That my friend, is a naturalistic fallacy. To claim that something is good just because it’s “natural” . The claim of what is/ought to be. To try and define values in terms of natural properties is simply a fallacious argument and illogical. For example, “Breastfeeding is the natural way to feed children, therefore mothers ought to breastfeed and not use baby formula.” Or “ Vaccines are unnatural therefore they are bad for you” or “ Human females have the capacity to give birth therefore all women should be obligated to have children.”

Also you simply can’t consent to a biological process, the chance of getting pregnant is still there no matter what precautions you use. That biological process can still occur even in S/A cases. Unless you want to enforce celibacy which is odd and a weird way of saying you’d also wish to criminalize sex.

“Some babies are born very early, like before24 weeks, which is when a fetus is considered viable.If a baby is born at 20-22 weeks they are not considered viable?”

If it’s viable at 20-22 weeks then it’s viable. If that baby that was born is alive and capable of living outside the womb without the mother then no, it should not be killed because it now has its own bodily autonomy. It is no longer non-viable.

When you justify violating the rights of the fetus because they aren't viable, are you claiming that viability is when a person has rights and is no longer to kill?

I’m claiming that you have be viable in order to have those bodily autonomy rights in the first place. How can a fetus that can’t survive outside a womb and without the mother’s body have its own bodily autonomy when it’s directly infringing on her bodily autonomy? How can you have those rights when you are directly dependent of another person’s body who already has those rights that you are infringing upon.

“You are not killing a person by not donating an organ. You are killing a person by performing an abortion.”

Well, the action of not donating an organ to the person who is dying and that you caused to be in that state is undeniably killing them. But you are correct, it’s not an unlawful killing. Which is what my point is, a pregnant woman denying her bodily autonomy to a non-viable fetus is not a unlawful killing. How is denying your bodily organ sustain the life a person you put in a critical state not similar or the same as you denying to give up your bodily organs to sustain the life of a fetus? Please explain that further.

You made a claim saying that the law already infringes on our bodily autonomy with the use of seat belts , masks and ect.

That’s not what bodily autonomy rights are, bodily autonomy are when nobody has a right over your bodily organs and nobody has a right to use your body in order to sustain their own life. So yea, bodily autonomy rights TRUMPS over the right to life and they always have. No other human life has ever had the right to use another person’s body for their direct survival. Regardless of if they die or not as a result.

Also don’t really want to dive into your entire excuse for the foster care system and healthcare system part right now , I’ll send another ask replying to that maybe since this is already long enough.

Thank you.

"It [personhood] actually is [a philosophical concept] and you kinda admitted yourself in your argument. It’s a legal concept."

I actually didn't though? I said the definition of person is human and fetuses are human beings from conception. Personhood is not a legal concept. There is a legal concept of personhood for dealing with matters of law, but it is not the definitive concept of personhood that we use to determine who is a person and who is not.

It is your biology that determines whether or not you are a person. The word "person" may not be a scientific classification, but it is absolutely a word we use to describe human beings. Every human being is a person. Name one whose not.

Also, I think it's very dangerous to believe personhood is a philosophical concept, especially when you are going to use it as a reason to kill human beings who you philosophically don't acknowledge as persons.

"And if you want to be consistent in that argument, you would also have to admit that if a fetus has personhood ( which is what you are arguing it has ) then that would also mean a single-celled human zygote would have a right to sue in court..."

I mean no I wouldn't because whether or not you are a person is a biological fact that is woven into your genes, not whatever the law defines it as. The law can be wrong.

And, also, I don't really have an inherent problem with a single celled human zygote having all those rights even if they can't appreciate or exercise them lol. But if your belief is they aren't persons because they can't exercise all the rights people have, then you must also be consistent. Do you assert that a two day old newborn baby has the right to sue in court, have a right to own and inherit property, etc. Do we need to probate the estate of the baby (which isn't required in every state) if it dies before leaving the hospital? And if we don't do that does that mean that baby isn't a person?

I just think it's very misguided to decide who is a person based on what the law says about it and what legal procedures are done and not on the fact that they are biologically human beings, and thus, a person.

"Okay, first of all. I was dreading you would make this infamous argument that pro lifers love to make, I don’t think you want to bring up slavery or the holocaust in your argument."

Oh I absolutely do want to bring those up. You're the one who doesn't want me to bring them up. The arguments you make for abortion are the same ones made for slavery and the holocaust and I understand you don't like that being pointed out but I'm not going to refrain from doing so just because it makes you uncomfortable. Even though I've seen pro-lifers bring it up a lot, I've yet to see a pro-choicer make a good argument for why it's not the same so I'm going to do that until I get one.

Besides, you brought up the infamous organ donation argument that pro-choicers love to make so it's only fair.

"Not only is it incredibly disingenuous but in doing so, you have to take in the fact that these slaves were autonomous beings before they were forcing them into slavery."

It's not disingenuous. I actually 100% believe they are the same argument and you're advocating for killing people with the exact same reasoning that slavers and the Nazis used. Scientifically, we know the unborn are human beings. There's no debate about it in science yet you are creating arbitrary standards of what it means to be a human being that have no scientific basis whatsoever in order to kill people, just like was done in slavery and the holocaust. They just chose different arbitrary standards than you have.

So, are you asserting right now, that it is autonomy that makes one a human being? Babies are not autonomous for months after being born. Is it ok to kill them?

"In fact, they had to take away their autonomy in order to make them slaves."

Kind of like you're taking away all rights from the unborn baby, including the right to life and bodily autonomy, by killing it.

But here is the reason I bring up the slave/holocaust argument. It is revealing a big contradiction in your belief system that you do not seem to realize. You asserted that personhood is a legal and philosophical concept. Is this true or is there a universal truth about what constitutes a person outside of law? It can't be both. If what you said at the beginning of your ask is correct, and personhood is a philosophical concept decided by law then you have to believe that slaves and jews were not, in fact, people, because the law said they were not. If you believe they were people, which you seem to, then you are saying personhood is not a philosophical and legal concept and personhood is a determinable truth that is not philosophical or decided by law. So which is it?

"To compare slaves, fully autonomous people, to a fetus who doesn’t have its own autonomy, no agency , not even a fully developed body yet inside of the womb of the autonomous being is not the route I think you want to take."

It absolutely is the route I want to take because I know that being fully autonomous, having agency or being fully developed is not what makes someone a human person. I don't think you want to take the route that you must have those things to be a person because every condition you list can also be applied to someone outside the womb and if you remain consistent with the conditions you list for why the fetus isn't a person then you are saying there are human beings who are living outside the womb that you also don't consider to be people.

People aren't fully autonomous right after being born. At what point are people fully autonomous and thus are not ok to kill or force into slavery anymore?

Babies don't have agency right after being born. When do people get agency and thus are not ok to kill or force into slavery anymore?

People aren't fully developed until years after being born. In fact, your brain isn't fully developed until the age of 25. So is it ok to kill and enslave people under 25?

Those are the conditions you listed for why the fetus is less of a person so if you're consistent with that belief then you must also believe that a three month old is less of a person than an 18 year old. And an 18 year old is less of a person than a 25 year old.

Is that the route you want to take?

And then the other question is, who’s autonomy is the one being invaded in? The pregnant person was there first. The pregnant person is the one with its own autonomy. The pregnant person is the one sustaining its own homeostasis, not the fetus who is only taking from that body. I really don’t think you want to compare something that has caused so much generational trauma to the medical procedure of removing a non sentient fetus.

If you believe autonomy is a human right then you have that right by the nature of being human, not by being born. A woman's autonomy isn't being invaded by pregnancy. If she's pregnant, she chose to engage in an act that the sole biological function of is reproduction. Your rights aren't being violated because you chose to have sex and it ended a way you didn't want.

I really don't think you want to be saying it's ok to kill babies just because they aren't autonomous. Bodily autonomy is not license to kill. If exercising your bodily autonomy requires you to kill an innocent person, you don't have the right to do that.

Bodily autonomy has limitations and those limitations are present when another person is going to be harmed or killed. And that's what going on in an abortion. An innocent person is being intentionally killed.

No, a pregnant woman is in no way comparable to a slave and it's absurd to say so. It's also minimizing what slavery is and very disrespectful to actual victims of slavery. Getting pregnant and giving birth is not slavery in any way, shape or form. No one says a woman must get pregnant. In fact, if a woman doesn't want a child I'm all for her not having one and choosing not to get pregnant. But it's not slavery to say you can't kill a baby you already have. And I don't think you want to be comparing slavery to not being able to kill your baby.

"That my friend, is a naturalistic fallacy. To claim that something is good just because it’s “natural",...."

Well my argument wasn't "it's natural and therefore good" so you're going to need to make sure you understand my argument before you try to refute it.

My argument was it's not infringing on her by existing. Natural biological process are not "infringing" on people's rights. The woman chose to risk starting the process of reproduction and reproduction is not infringing on the woman by happening. That was my argument.

If you invite someone into your home they aren't infringing on your rights by accepting the invitation.

"Also you simply can’t consent to a biological process, the chance of getting pregnant is still there no matter what precautions you use. That biological process can still occur even in S/A cases. Unless you want to enforce celibacy which is odd and a weird way of saying you’d also wish to criminalize sex."

Precisely. Which is why this is not a matter of consent. It's a biological process that can happen whether you want it to or not. If you don't want to go through the process and you are going to kill the baby if you get pregnant it would be better for you to abstain from sex altogether until you're ready to go through the process. I don't want to enforce celibacy but I do think people who are going to kill their baby if they get pregnant shouldn't be having sex. At all.

My core point here is once you are pregnant reproduction has happened. Now the baby exists. It is a human being, a person, from the moment of conception and if you abort the pregnancy at any point you are killing a human being and you have failed to give any example where bodily autonomy lets you intentionally kill an innocent person.

It's not a matter of consent. It's a matter of protecting human life. The baby does not need continuous consent to exist. You don't have the right to kill them.

"If it’s viable at 20-22 weeks then it’s viable. If that baby that was born is alive and capable of living outside the womb without the mother then no, it should not be killed because it now has its own bodily autonomy. It is no longer non-viable."

It's not viable. That's the whole point. Even after it's born at that age it's still not viable. They usually don't even survive after being born that young. So if a baby can be born at that age and we can't kill them, what's the difference when they are in the womb at that age? It's exactly the same level of viability both inside and outside the womb.

I think you need to define what you mean by viable. And where was it decided you only have human rights if you're viable?

"I’m claiming that you have be viable in order to have those bodily autonomy rights in the first place. How can a fetus that can’t survive outside a womb and without the mother’s body have its own bodily autonomy when it’s directly infringing on her bodily autonomy? How can you have those rights when you are directly dependent of another person’s body who already has those rights that you are infringing upon."

And, where, exactly, did you get the idea that you have to be viable to have autonomy rights? Is bodily autonomy a human right or not? Because if it's is human right then you have it by nature of being a human.

The fetus is not infringing on her bodily autonomy, as I've already explained and you've failed to prove otherwise. You just keep claiming it's an infringement but haven't refuted any of my arguments that explain how it's not an infringement.The fetus is a human being and has the same rights that the mother has.

The fetus has the right to life. And bodily autonomy is not the right to kill innocent people.

"Well, the action of not donating an organ to the person who is dying and that you caused to be in that state is undeniably killing them. But you are correct, it’s not an unlawful killing. Which is what my point is, a pregnant woman denying her bodily autonomy to a non-viable fetus is not a unlawful killing. How is denying your bodily organ sustain the life a person you put in a critical state not similar or the same as you denying to give up your bodily organs to sustain the life of a fetus? Please explain that further."

You are not causing them to be in that state. If they need an organ they are already in that state. You are not saving their life. And that's completely different than killing someone. It's not a "lawful killing" because you are not killing people if you don't donate an organ. They are dying a natural death. We don't have the responsibility of saving people who are dying, but we do have the responsibility of not intentionally killing people who would continue to live without our interference.

If you are the one who put the person in the critical state that made them need the organ, then you are not required to donate the organ but you will be charged with murder if they die if you literally caused them to be in that position. So you don't have to save their life, but if they die you will be held responsible.

And abortion is not simply a matter of refusing to donate an organ. Do you know what must be done to prevent the baby from using your body? You have to rip its body apart limb by limb. Induce a heart attack. Crush its skull. These are very violent acts that would be considered crimes at any point outside of the womb and it's very disingenuous of you to compare it to simply not donating an organ. You do see how those are different, do you not?

Can you commit those same kind of acts on a person who you refuse to donate an organ to?

"You made a claim saying that the law already infringes on our bodily autonomy with the use of seat belts , masks and ect.

I would really like to know where you're getting all your definitions for the assertions you make because it seems like you're making them up or just taking parts of them that you feel you can use to support abortion and discarding the parts that don't fit your belief system.

Bodily autonomy includes the right to govern your organs and using your body to sustain others, but that's not all it covers. Bodily autonomy is simply the right to govern ones own body. That's it. Not just about what you do with your organs or if someone needs assistance to live but in all matters that involve anything about your body inside or out of it.

So you think bodily autonomy is applicable if you want to kill an innocent person you created through a very specific act but it's not applicable if the government is telling you what to wear? You see how that makes no sense, don't you? If it applies in such severe cases and allows you to kill a person, then surely it covers less severe situations like if you don't want to walk outside with a cloth over your face when that hurts absolutely no one.

Skin is an organ. So if bodily autonomy is the right over your bodily organs than that has to include what you choose to put on your skin. So why is it different? Why doesn't bodily autonomy apply to other areas when you're being told what to do with your body?

Bodily autonomy does not trump the right to life and you have not given a single case where it does. The right to life is not the right not to die. The right to life is the right to live your life as you see fit until you die a natural death or forfeit that right based on your own choices. Someone else does not have the right to intentionally end your life if they don't consent to your existence. You don't get to say someone can't use your organs or body once they are already using it. Like if you donate an organ and then after the procedure is done and the person is using it you can't change your mind and take it back. Your rights end where another persons' begin.

If bodily autonomy trumps the right to life then that will apply in multiple other situations outside the womb. So give me a real life example of when we are allowed to intentionally end the life of another innocent, even perfectly healthy person, to exercise bodily autonomy. And organ donation doesn't count because you're not killing anyone by not donating an organ. I'm not talking about not making the decision to save an already dying person. I'm talking about a time when you're legally allowed to actively and intentionally end the life of another innocent human being who would have continued to live without your interference.

#anon #answered #abortion #pro-life

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burner2047 · 4 months

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Religion is not real

#LivingPost

Why do governments treat religion as if it is real? Sure, religious organizations are real, but the thing that they push, religion, is, to be kind, a construct. Nothing about religion is three dimensional. It does not exist in the real world only the practices thereof. To be religious one must in varying degrees and aspects, ignore science and deny reality.

But governments make laws that give credence to religion and really in a sense it is the governments that have legitimized religions by treating them as if they are a real thing, even going so far as adopting a religion as an “official” one. And while it could be argued that a construct is “real” just because you thought it, it is not tangible and it is not fixed. That makes religion wily and dangerous and a threat to society.

Here in America religious organizations don’t even pay taxes. And even with that unfair advantage they continue to garner more and more unfair protections and codified discriminatory practices under the ruse of “religious freedom.”

Raised religious, I left religion behind when I realized it’s a tool used by the powers that be to maintain the status quo and macho supremacy.

And of course by its nature religion is divisive. Most religions contend they are the only one and true religion. Some take a superior stance to instill in their followers that they are blessed and all others are of some other less than human ilk. Religion, by design, is contentious. To put it bluntly, to be religious you must have its particular brand of hate in your heart.

I saw an interview with a Palestinian woman who said she was raising her child to be a martyr. She’s raising her child to commit suicide. Why? Religion.

Americans stand in the way of abortion because they contend it to be murder. Why? Religion.

I don’t see how you can free Palestine without freeing Israel too. But the current “Free Palestine” movement is organized and directed by terrorists and designed to get the everyday basic to hate Jews. I have news for the liberal progressives who think they are doing intersectionality here. With intersectionality you lift up the least and everyone is lifted but ask Israelis if they got lifted on Oct 7. They are not doing intersectionality they are doing terrorism.

You can only see abortion as murder if you believe that a zygote or a fetus is a human being, which it isn’t. It’s a zygote or a fetus. But that’s a belief a power hungry cabal of religious leaders in America ingrained into its already primed for programming followers. As Monty Python pointed out, they already believed “every sperm is sacred” such that if you spilt seed outside of a vagina you are a murderer. And of course, with men, if they get to be supposed murderers it’s only fair for women to be actual murderers.

All this is to say that it is religion that we should be fighting against. If you want to eradicate something from the planet start with that. In a broad war on lowercase religion nobody dies. Because religion isn’t real. It’s just a construct. And if people stopped buying into constructs as “tradition,” “history” and “identity,” there would be a lot less to fight about.

The best way to fight religion would be for governments to stop acknowledging it as real in the first place. And if they must acknowledge them, do so with a tax. Make them pay for what they do.

Government must protect us from religion.

I am sorry to the religious who may find my words offensive, frightening or evil. I understand where they are coming from. Often it takes an outside catalyst to pierce the veil not some rambling post on Tumblr. But to them I say don’t knock it til you try it. I’ve been religion free for more than 3 decades now and it works for me.

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why-bless-your-heart · 3 years

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an unpleasant shock to see anti-abortion stuff on my dash. the bone marrow donation point is a good one. do you think all abortions are had by adults who just couldn't be bothered to use protection? even condoms and the pill fail sometimes, and people shouldn't have their dreams forfeit to it. I hope you change your mind some time, before you can obstruct someone for whom abortion is the best option.

Dude. “Roman Catholic” is right on my description, you do not have to follow.

If having a baby is the end of your world you should not be having sex. If you can’t handle the natural outcome of an activity you should not partake in that activity. Sex makes babies, that’s literally why it exists.

And murder will never, ever, in a million years, be the best option. I am friends with too many people who’ve been adopted after their birth parents chose life to ever think that the world will be better off without them. I have too much respect for the human person to ever think that eugenics will solve any problem. I understand too much science to ever think that a human zygote, fetus, or embryo is anything less than that—human—from the moment of conception. Maybe try actually helping women who are considering abortion, and you’ll find how few of them actually want to lose their child. Abby Johnson usually has links to donate to mothers choosing life on her Facebook, the Gabriel project provides material, emotional, and spiritual assistance, and I’m sure your home area has maternity homes, pregnancy centers, and other charity programs that could use your assistance.

This isn’t a question of donating blood marrow to a stranger. This is a question of killing your child (who, again, is in the only place it belongs or can go and, again, only exists because of your actions), and that is absolutely one hundred percent wrong in all cases.

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tinyboxxtink · 3 years

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"Broken" A Sharky ANGSTY O/S

So I made a one shot called Baby Shark where Sharky and Rafael get pregnant and after some bumpy conversation, decide to have the baby and she grows up to be a great kid, and you love being a mother.

However, at the time I also had an idea for the OTHER outcome of the pregnancy. But I let it go, and then I got a request from-- someone, I don't know if they want this out in the world-- to write a fic about a miscarriage. So, I figured I'd go with the idea I had already planned out.

AND SO,

I present to you, the alternative outcome of "Baby Shark".

Warning: VERY angsty, dealing with abortions and miscarriages. Also religion, if you're sensitive about that.

Read at your own discretion.

If you would like to read the happy version of this story, it is here.

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You stared at the four pregnancy tests on the counter, waiting on the fifth. Plus signs and “Pregnant” words were sitting there, mocking you. You heard your phone alarm go off and picked up the last test.

Positive.

“Dammit!!!” You threw it across the bathroom. This was your worst nightmare. You didn’t want kids right now, you weren’t sure you wanted kids EVER. But you knew Rafael did, he probably wanted them as soon as possible.

“Mi Amor?” Rafael slowly opened the door.

“Raffi!” You spun around angrily. “Don’t you knock?!”

“Well I heard you yell…Oh my god,” Rafael suddenly noticed all the positive tests. “Y/N, are you…are you pregnant?”

“Yeah, well obviously,” You scoffed, gesturing to the many positive tests. You weren’t trying to be mean but he walked in just when you were trying to wrap your mind around this.

“…Why are you angry about this, carino?” He looked at you confused. “You…you do want kids, don’t you?”

“We really should have had this conversation before we got married, god why didn’t we have this conversation…”

“Oh my god,” Rafael stepped back. “You DON’T want kids?”

“I don’t know!” You threw your hands up. “Rafael I had given up on being a wife a long time ago, let alone a mother,”

“I can’t believe this,” He shook his head in disbelief.

“Look I just don’t want to have to make this decision right NOW,” You tried to act softer, lowering your voice. “You know we JUST got married, and we JUST started the practice. I just wanted some time to BREATHE,”

“So…you want to abort it?” Rafael’s voice was soft and sad.

“Christ Almighty Rafael it’s not ‘aborting’ it’s…” You paused, noticing his face was getting more horrified. “What?”

“I thought when you were defending me, your whole ‘cold medical’ argument was a tactic…”

“Yeah well,” You ran your fingers through your hair. “Look, baby,” You took his hand again. “If I…got rid of it,” You saw him flinch. “It would just be taking a pill that rips apart cells and tissue. It doesn’t disintegrate arms or legs, or a tiny beating heart,”

“Yeah I get it, Y/N” He dropped your hands and walked out of the bathroom, you ran after him.

“Rafael, come on!” You chased him through the apartment, grabbing his hand and making him face. “At least hear me out,”

“Why? Why should I? You clearly won’t hear me out! You’ve already made your decision, I bet you weren’t even going to tell me about it,”

“That’s not fair,” You replied, hurt. Of course you would have told him, wouldn’t you?

“And…it’s not just this,” He sighed, looking up at the ceiling.

“What do you mean?”

“I mean, if you don’t want kids right now is one thing, if you don’t want kids EVER, then…” He wiped his eyes. “Then we’re just delaying the inevitable,” He said softly, you could hear the tears in his voice.

“What?” Your heart fell into your stomach. “What are you saying?”

“I want kids, Y/N,” He looked at you very seriously. “I want kids and I’m not going to give up that idea,”

“So, you would just walk away from me for some hypothetical kids you might have some day?” You were getting upset now. How dare he threaten you like that.

“I don’t…” He ran his hands through his hair, tears still falling from his eyes. “I don’t want to,”

“Then DON’T,” You crossed your arms.

“Why should I appease you when you won’t even THINK about it?” He suddenly went from sad to angry, matching your attitude.

“I didn’t say I wouldn’t think about it, I said I really don’t want to decide NOW,” You yelled back, as you sat down on the couch. All of this yelling was making you dizzy.

“Then when do you want to decide, Y/N? When-- when our baby actually has fingers, toes? Is that going to change your mind about killing them?”

“Oh my god, you are so--” You stomped out of the bathroom and through your living room.

“Where are you going?” He called after you.

“To prove to you I’m not a heartless bitch!” You yelled back as you stormed out, slamming the door behind you.

=====

You drove to the clinic that Dr. Ramoray worked at, pulling into the parking lot and rushed into the waiting room.

“I need to speak to Dr. Ramoray,“ You informed her.

“Do you have an appointment?”

“No, but we’re old friends,”

“Excuse me?” She looked at you quizzically.

“Can you-- can you just tell him Y/N is here and really needs to talk to him?”

“....Okay…” She looked at you skeptically but stood up and went to find the doctor. After a few minutes Dr. Ramoray walked out and greeted you.

“Hello, Y/N. Nice to see you,” He shook your hand. “Don’t tell me you have another case--”

“No, it’s personal this time doctor,”

“Personal?”

“I...can we…?” You motioned towards the rooms.

“Well...sure, Stella hold my appointments,” He informed his receptionist.

He walked you back and into a patient room. It was lined with charts of the different stages of pregnancy, lists of do’s and don’t during pregnancy, things like that. You took a seat in the regular seats as opposed to the patient stirrups.

“So, how can I help you dear?”

“Well, you know that man I defended?”

“The ADA? Well of course, that’s one day I will never forget,”

“Well he’s my-- husband,” You looked down, hoping that wasn’t a lie.

“I see,” He nodded. “Well, that makes a lot of sense now that I think about it,”

“Right,” You nodded sheepishly. “Well, see we uh-- I got us in a...situation,” You put a hand on your stomach.

“Ah,” He nodded again. “I see,”

“Yeah..”

“And guessing by your argument in court, you’d like to get rid of the...zygote?”

“I don’t know,” You shook your head. “I...I didn’t have the greatest role mode of a mother growing up, and I have no idea how to--” You rubbed your temples. Too much detail.

“Look my husband has the opposite stance on my...views, of a zygote,”

“Well that’s ironic, isn’t it?” He chuckled.

“Yes haha. I just want you--- I just need a picture of this thing to show him it’s just cells, it’s not a--”

“A baby,” he finished for you.

“Right,”

“Well, as you must know due to your research Ms. Y/N, depending on how far along you are it might be impossible to even see the zygote,” He explained.

“Well that’s even better,” You half smiled. “Then it will really prove to him I’m doing nothing wrong-- if I decide to get rid of it,”

“As you wish,” He nodded, gesturing for you to get on the patient table. You laid down on the table and pulled your shirt up, while the doctor got the gooey gel and rubbed it on your stomach. He pulled up a screen that recorded the sonogram, as he ran the scanner over your uterus.

“....Hmm…” He studied the screen intently.

“Hmmm?” You asked. “Hmmm doesn’t sound good,”

“I...well, there seems to be an...issue,”

“Excuse me?” You sat up. “An issue? What kind of issue?”

“Well Ms. Y/N according to this, your uterus is what we would call-- hostile,”

“Hostile?” You half laughed. “Why does that not surprise me…?” You shook your head. Of course you, the cold hearted shark, would have a hostile uterus on top of everything else hostile in your body.

“Yes, see all of this extra tissue? It’s not ideal for a fetus to grow and develop,” He pointed out clouds of white almost filling your uterus. “To be completely honest with you, it’s a miracle you even got pregnant,”

“...Oh Jesus…” You put your hands over your face. “Why...God why…”

“If you decide to terminate this pregnancy, there’s a slim to none chance this will ever happen again,” He continued.

“Great,” You chuckled sarcastically. “So now even NATURE is forcing me to make a choice right now,”

“Well,” He pushed the screen away. “If it helps your decision, there’s an 75% percent chance the baby will even survive full term,”

“Are you fucking kidding me?” You laughed harder. “So, even if I decide to concede to my husband and go ahead with this, there’s a 25% chance that he’ll get attached to it, and then it will die anyway?!”

“Look Ms. Y/N,” He put a hand on your shoulder. “In my experience, more often than not women with hostile uteruses that do actually get pregnant, end up having perfectly healthy babies. Granted most are preemies, but with today’s technology that’s almost never an issue,”

“...Right,” You shook your head with a dry sarcastic smile, still in disbelief this was all happening.

“And if you don’t mind me saying,” He added. “I really think this is something you should discuss with your husband,”

“I actually really do mind you saying, Doctor,” You said curtly. “I just...I need a minute, can I have a minute?”

“Sure, take a minute. Call him, maybe ask him to come down,”

“...Yeah, right,” You shook your head with a smile as you walked out of the room and down the hall through the waiting room and outside in front of the clinic. You walked over to a small bench off to the side of the walkway into the clinic and sat down, and before you could think your body just erupted in a loud, angry scream.

“....Do you think this is funny, huh?!” You yelled up at the sky. “Is this, what is this, some kind of TEST?” You stood up now as you continued your rant.

“Are you-- are you trying to test how much I love Rafael? Testing just how much I’ve REALLY changed? Or are you just trying to prove to me that I can’t be happy? I can’t have the nice, perfect man, with a perfect family? That I’ll just lose anything good that I touch? You’ve turned my own BODY against me?!” You started to cry in the middle of the grass.

“Why would you do this, huh?” You asked Him. “You know the kind of mother I grew up with, you know I have nothing GOOD to reference on being a mother!” Tears streamed down your cheeks.

“Why would you do this to me? Have I been that shit of a person? Really? I went through...I went through hell and back my entire life, and then I fought like hell for Rafael, for someone who actually loved me, for the very first time in my life! And now-- now you want to take that away from me? Or are you giving me a second chance? TELL ME! TELL ME WHAT I’M SUPPOSED TO DO!!!!!!!” You screamed, falling to your knees sobbing.

“....Y/N?” A soft voice made you leap to your feet and spin around to see Rafael standing there, his mouth slightly open with a confused look on his face.

“Rafa,” You quickly sucked the rest of your breakdown back into your body, wiping tears away and clearing your throat. “W-What are you doing here?”

“I...I came to support you,” He said softly as he walked closer to you.

“Support me?”

“Well I figured, you came down here to--”

“To what, kill our baby? Without even discussing with you?” You scoffed.

“No!” He cried. “Well, maybe..”

“Right,” You shook your head with a dry laugh.

“But I was going to support you no matter your decision!!” He defended himself.

“Oh well, that’s really big of you Rafael. Coming down here to hold my hand while I abort our child and then breaking up with me as soon as we walked out of here,” You scoffed with a roll of your eyes.

“That’s not--” He shook his head. “Look, I think-- I think that what matters right now is your little...soliloquy there,” He gestured towards the bench where you were having your screaming match at God.

“...Right,”

“Why wouldn’t you tell me about your mother, carino?”

“Why would I, Rafael?” You rolled your eyes with a laugh. “I already inadvertently told you I’d never heard the words ‘I love you’ in my life before you, I thought that was pretty obvious I didn’t have the greatest parents,”

“...Fair,” He closed the gap between you, taking your hands. “I’m sorry, I should have taken that into account when were...talking,”

“Arguing,” You clarified.

“Right,” He nodded sadly. “I just-- I ...I’ve always--”

“Yeah, I get it. You’ve always wanted kids. I should have taken that into account when we even started dating. I should have thought this could happen. I’m usually so level headed and ten steps ahead of things, but with you--”

“It’s different,” He finished for you with a sad smile.

“Yeah,” You nodded softly, looking at the ground.

“Well,” He tilted your chin up. “I don’t--I don’t want to impose anything on you, but--”

“But…”

“But...you did just ask the big guy what to do, and I was here,”

“...So you’re saying, God is telling me to go through with this?”

“All I’m stating is facts, Sharky,” He rubbed your cheek with his thumb. “I’m not telling you to do anything, I’m really not. I swear,”

“....Well, you should know all the facts then,” You sighed, leading him back to the bench where you both sat.

“All the facts?” He asked you curiously.

“...Dr. Ramoray says that I have a…’hostile uterus’,” You shook your head with a laugh, just saying it sounded absurd.

“A hostile uterus? You? I’m shocked,” He joked, trying to ease the tension.

“I know right?” You chuckled. “Anyway um-- he said, that it was a miracle I even got pregnant,” You said softly while you played with his hand in yours.

“...A miracle?”” Rafael’s voice perked up a little. Did that mean you were considering it? Surely you wouldn’t have told him that if you were going to get rid of it.

“Yeah,” You nodded. “And um-- he said, he said if I terminated this pregnancy, there was a slim to none chance that I’d ever get pregnant again,” You looked at the ground.

“I see,” He squeezed your hand softly. “So...basically, even mother nature is forcing you to make a life decision right now,”

“That’s what I said!” You looked up into his eyes; you really were so in sync.

“...Which is why you were yelling at God,”

“...Right,” You looked up at the sky. “But there’s another thing,”

“Oh?”

“The doctor said that even if I decide to go ahead with the pregnancy, there’s a 25% chance that it will die anyway,” You looked into his eyes sadly. “Because of course, my body would be just like my mother, rejecting it,” You looked away from him with another sarcastic laugh, thinking of the irony of your situation.

“Hey,” He put a hand on your face, making you look at him. “You are NOT your mother,”

“You didn’t even know her,”

“I know she wouldn’t be wrestling with this decision, would she?”

“No,” You shook your head. “She definitely would not. She made it very clear that my father MADE her have me, because he didn’t believe in abortion,”

“....Like I was trying to do,” He said sadly.

“No baby,” You took his hands. “I know you weren’t trying to force me to do anything,”

“....But I kind of was, when I threatened to leave you,” He looked down in shame.

“No, uh uh,” Now it was your turn to pull his chin upwards. “It’s not the same. Not even close,”

“....So,” He took a deep breath. “Have you decided what you’re going to do?”

“....Well,” You gave him a small smile. “I can’t exactly argue with God for giving me what I asked for, right?”

“Wha--you mean me?”

“I asked him what to do, and here you are,” You pressed your forehead against his. “I’d say that’s a pretty big red flag of an answer,”

“Carino,” His lips curled into a huge smile before they were on yours.

-----------------

----Six Months Later----

You were in your last trimester, and were finally starting to breathe about your impending labor. Every month, every doctor’s appointment, you’d walk into the office with the worst expectations, and every time you were proven wrong. In that time, you had grown attached to your little girl, who you decided to name Isabella. Izzie, for short.

Rafael would talk to Izzie as much as he talked to you, always speaking in Spanish thinking she’d pick it up in the womb. You’d just shake your head with a smile, it was adorable the way he was so excited. It made you even more excited, just seeing him so happy. You had never been so invested in someone else’s emotions other than your own, especially not someone who hadn’t even been born yet. But you loved Izzie already, you would smile to yourself when you’d feel her moving around inside you. It was like she was snuggling you in her own little cocoon inside you.

However, on the day of your baby shower, all of your new hopes and dreams came crashing down. You were doing your makeup, humming and bouncing along with the Spotify playlist you had playing-- when you felt it. A sharp, overwhelming pain struck your abdomen, causing you to hunch over, falling to your knees.

“RAFAEL!!!!!” You screamed as your insides felt like they were being stabbed everywhere. Everything you had feared was coming true.

Rafael sprinted into your bathroom half dressed and instantly was down next to you.

“Y/N, baby what’s wrong?” He asked frantically, checking your body everywhere as you writhed in pain and began to cry.

“It’s...Izzie,” You sobbed, knowing what was happening. “I’m losing her,”

“Oh God,” Rafael dialed 911 while he tried to help you stand. When he saw your pelvis however, he stopped moving you.

“What?” You asked in a panicked tone. “What is it?”

“You’re...You’re bleeding, Y/N,” His eyes began to fill with tears as he watched you quickly begin to bleed out in front of him.

“What?” You tried desperately to look down at yourself, all you saw was a pool of blood running down the floor to your feet. Everything started to go fuzzy, you could barely hear Rafael screaming on the phone for someone to hurry up and come to your rescue. Pretty soon, you blacked out completely.

----------------------

The next thing you knew you were waking up in a hospital bed with a nurse taking your vitals.

“Welcome back, Ms. Y/N,” She smiled sweetly. “We almost lost you there,”

“...Lost me?” You looked at her in confusion before looking down at your stomach. A huge bandage was wrapped around your torso, covering several stitches and tubes coming out of your pelvis.

“Oh my god,” You whispered, beginning to panic again. “Oh my god, oh my god--”

“Whoa whoa calm down sweetie,” The nurse tried to keep you from squirming around. “You’ll pop your stitches,”

“Where’s Izzie? Where’s Rafael?” You asked her as you started to hyperventilate.

“Your husband ran to get a coffee” She assured you. “And um, your-- your baby is…”

“She’s dead, isn't she?” You began to sob. “I killed her,”

“No! No ma’am,” She shook her head. “Well, I mean she-- she is-- gone,” She said sadly. “But you did NOT kill her,”

“No, just my hostile body,” You continued to sob.

“Look I’m-- I’ll be right back,” She rushed out of the room, leaving you crying and screaming in horror and guilt.

After a few minutes, Rafael was bursting into the room, instantly at your side and taking your shaking body in his arms. He was still covered in your blood, he hadn’t dared to leave your side since they had gotten you there.

“I killed her, Rafa,” You sobbed into his chest. “I knew it, I knew this would happen. I’m broken inside, I told you I was broken,”

“Shhh, no no no mi amor,” He whispered as he tried to not start crying himself. “Shhhh, you’re-- you’re not broken,”

“I am!!!” You sobbed harder. “I killed our baby, just like I knew I would. It’s the one thing I was supposed to give you,”

“...Shh, baby I know. It’s okay, it’s alright--” He looked up at the sky as he began to cry himself.

“No it’s not, it’s not okay!!” Your sobs became heavier, you could barely breathe. All of your fears were coming true, you were being punished. You lost your child and now you were going to lose the love of your life. “Please don’t leave me, Please please please,”

“What?” He suddenly looked back down at you, pulling you from his chest. “Why would I--”

“I KILLED OUR BABY!!!!!!!!” You screamed. “That’s the ONE thing you asked me not to do!! The one thing! And I did it anyway!!!”

“NO, you did NOT,” He took both of your shoulders. “You did not kill our baby, do you hear me? You tried so hard, you took such good care of Izzie, carino--” He started to cry again as he said her name.

“She’s dead, Rafael,” You had just started to get your sobs under control until you saw him cry. You hated seeing him cry. You hated being the reason he was crying. “She’s dead!”

“And so were you!” He said through his tears. “You died on that table, they told me. But you came back to me,”

“....What?” Now you started to control your crying in shock from this new information.

“We may have lost Izzie, but I almost lost both of you. And I-- I don’t think I would have survived that,” He was still crying. “I...I’m devastated about Izzie, but I’m grateful you’re alive,”

“....Even though I’m broken?” You sniffled.

“You are not broken, mi amor,” He shook his head as he kissed your forehead, getting his own emotions to calm down. “...And if you still don’t believe me, then I promise you, I will spend the rest of our lives putting you back together,”

“....Okay,” You whispered, finally relaxing into his arms as he laid back against the wall.

“I love you, Y/N,” He whispered as he stroked your hair. “I will always love you, no matter what,”

“I love you too,” You sniffled as you started to fall asleep against his chest.

You wanted to believe him, but you knew deep down inside: You’d always be broken.

#rafael barba #rafael barba x reader #rafael barba one shot #rafael barba angst #rafael barba x you #rafael barba fanfiction #angst #tw abortion #tw miscarriage #law and order svu fanfiction

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mintedwitcher · 3 years

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Okay so I know its become sort of a running gag by now that pro lifers only care about the life of a fetus but like... yall DO know that there is an actual PERSON involved in pregnancy, right? Like yall talk about pregnancy as if it happens completely separate to the pregnant person at all, and that the pregnant person at best is just mildly inconvenienced by pregnancy but that is SO far from the truth it's ridiculous.

Like you people do know that there is an actual person involved, right? We don't need to remind you of this every single time, do we?

A zygote/embryo/fetus is a part of the pregnant person, not apart from them. They're literally connected.

You can't have a fetus without a pregnant person. Science hasn't come that far yet. We can create zygotes and embryos but they aren't even viable until implanted in another person.

Yall are so pro life for the fetus but you don't even think about the person carrying it.

Im sorry but like, yall are so narrow minded its disgusting.

Pregnancy is a dangerous and fickle experience. Even a perfectly safe and healthy pregnancy can fail on a moments notice for no obvious reason at all.

And you bastards want to get rid of the one safe option for removing a fetus, because it hurts your feelings? Because you think that only the fetus is affected? Because you don't think the pregnant person matters?

I honestly don't think most of you actually understand just how dangerous pregnancy really is. Or that a lot of people aren't willing to take that risk just to have a child.

If I were a psychologist I'd say that this desperate, clawing, insatiable need for control over others is a sign that you don't feel safe or strong enough to exert control in your own lives, and that all of this is just projection because you feel that if you have no control then others shouldn't either... but I'm not a psychologist, so I won't say it.

#abortion #pro choice #pro life #hm #food for thought #just saying

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nix-that-rad-lass · 2 years

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As feminists, we cannot lose ground to pro-forced-birthers (aka, the misleading “pro life” cult)

They are maliciously ignorant, and stupendously narcissistic.

Many don’t even know the female reproductive anatomy.

Nearly none understand the actual stages of embryonic development.

They don’t want to ban abortion. They want to relegate women to property, point blank.

We have seen in laws throughout the US (and honestly much of the rest of the world) that a zygote has more personhood than a woman. That a two celled parasitic organism somehow has rights that supersede those of a woman.

They will not stop at some abortions. They will refuse exceptions for rape or incest, they will refuse exceptions in which the woman or the fetus/embryo are at risk of death.

Eventually they will come for Plan B, they will come for the birth control pill, they will prevent tubal ligation, they will ban every right to reproductive autonomy.

Their end goal is to put women in our speculated place, as incubators and property of men.

They will not stop until they have successfully enslaved women.

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papirouge · 3 years

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*I don’t often see pro-life tumblrs, and so I guess I got a little excited to talk to you about abortion. Something that, I‘m really passionate about.

Hi! So, to me I think that abortion is a lot more selfish in majority of cases then people realize, it’s really selfish that we do something that was biologically designed for the creation of another human being, and then do it anyway because it felt good despite knowing we aren’t able to take care of children, etc. Or know we don’t want to go through pregnancy but then do something that will directly lead to that, it’s incredibly dum and selfish to your child, who unlike you who had no say in the situation that the mother, the father and the child are in currently. (Her going through an unwanted pregnancy, and if the child is born, her going through having to raise it or maybe adopt it.)

People say it’s just a clump of cells. Which is disrespectful to women who have had miscarriages, which similar to abortions often happen in the first trimester. And, liberated women don’t let a clump ot cells ruin there lifestyle, right? It’s much more developed even from conception then people realize. There’s a difference between a clump of cells and an distinct organism, I found this pro-life article, and it’s really interesting:

“It's just a clump of cells, not a baby."

Most pro-lifers won't go more than a month or two without hearing this stubborn phrase. Pro-choicers often chant it as a one-liner to shoot down a pro-lifer's honest argument or just to express their unyielding abortion support. In cases where they actually believe it and are willing to discuss with you, it's important to have a few handy points up your sleeve to get them really listening.

Despite this phrase being both inaccurate and usually thrown about only to deceive or provoke anger, in a culture where '"repeating something enough makes it true," it has become a widely-held "fact" among the public. However, there is much to rebut against this argument, and that’s why it gets so tough. Where do we even start?

Well, to begin with, I often like to point out that every human alive right now, including both the pro-choicer and the pro-lifer, are also clumps of cells (or clusters of cells, blobs of tissue, etc.). This can prompt the opposition to get more specific as to the differences they are trying to highlight between the born and the unborn that they believe justify abortion. Two different paths can be taken from there, depending on their argument. The first is more scientific, and the second more philosophical. Ordinarily, they will both be touched upon at some point, in the respective order.

The first argument is that while all humans are technically "clumps of cells," what they mean is that early embryos or zygotes mostly consist of cells containing genetic information that are blueprints for any and all of their future body parts, called "(embryonic) stem cells," whereas older fetuses and born human bodies are more organized into groups of like cells, such as skin, organs, hair, etc. However, even in the earliest stages of fetal development (such as the blastocyst - a child around the age they implant in their mother’s uterus 3-5 days after fertilization), she is organized into parts, with her inner cells making up her body and the outer ones developing into her nourishing placenta. A bit later, when the child is 2-3 weeks old in the womb as an embryo, she has three layers of cells in her tiny body: The top layer (ectoderm) which gives rise to her outermost layer of skin, central and peripheral nervous systems, eyes, and inner ears; the middle layer of cells (mesoderm), from which her heart, primitive circulatory system, bones, ligaments, kidneys and much of her reproductive system will form; and the inner layer of cells (endoderm) where the child’s lungs and intestines will develop. By week 7-8, all of the fetus’s major organs/parts (heart, brain, spine, limbs) are fully formed and mostly functional. So, just as adult human bodies are more complex than those of infants, so born humans' bodies are more structured than those of unborn humans. But, that doesn't mean unborn human bodies are unorganized and inactive as the term "clump of cells" would imply — in fact, as we can see, they are quite complex already!

Some may object that while fetuses are not always clumps of cells, abortions take place so early in the pregnancy at which time they are not developed enough to be considered a "child." Countless embryology textbooks and medical professionals have confirmed the fetal development research outlined above. With that information in mind, let us take a look at further studies regarding the development of the fetus when most abortions are performed. Most mothers find out they are pregnant when they are between 4 and 7 weeks along - on average, around 5 and a half weeks. The earliest almost any abortion (chemical or surgical) can be performed is after 4 weeks gestation, when the child already has a detectible heartbeat. Although a majority of abortions are done in the first trimester of pregnancy, the child at that stage is already developing to a much greater extent than those who call him or her a "clump of cells" would like you to think, or even believe themselves. Moreover, abortions in the second and even third trimester are legal in the United States, happen tens of thousands of times a year, and are routinely committed for non-medical reasons.

Finally, there is the philosophical argument for abortion: using the phrase "clump of cells" to imply that the unborn are not "fully human," nor worthy enough to be called human beings nor a member of humanity. It's hard to argue with the science that proves fetuses are living human organisms, so some will take it a step further and admit they are, but still insist the unborn should not be treated as valuable "persons" like born humans are, because (1) they aren't as developed, (2) they are much smaller in size, and (3) they are more dependent upon others — especially their own mother — for survival. Your job is to get to the root of why they think these things matter so much that they determine which humans are "persons" who have human rights. When you look closely enough, you'll see that all these "requirements" are arbitrary and nonsensical, just as saying that a human's biological sex, skin color, or abilities (mental, physical, etc.) determine whether he or she has basic human rights. When we base human rights such as the right to life on anything other than someone's actual humanity, we are in for a lot of trouble. Talk about being on the right side of history for this one!”

In response to this, we might hear the bodily autonomy argument, “Nobody has a right to use my body.“ But, that can’t possibly apply to your own children? We say nobody has a right to use our resources, but what people fail to realize that when you have an abortion, that’s your child… not some random stranger and not “just” a clump of cells like some pro-choice advocates claim, multiple medical websites call it exactly that and fetus is Latin for small child or offspring

Some people consider the fetus not a person, such as claiming they don’t have sentience…but this article explains very well why that doesn’t make someone a person, also this, this, this, this

If you wanna talk message me

HUN YOU GOT SO MANY GOOD TAKES I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW WERE TO BEGIN I'M HYPERVENTILATING RIGHT NOW LMAOOO

For real it's 00:48 AM here I usually don't reply to asks this late but I'm getting so many notes I decided to post it now bc I was scared of not finding it in my activity tomorrow lol

I'll probably edit it and add a proper comment on all the incredible points you pull out but right now I can only but address the hypocrisy of abortionists stating how important consent is while being willing to kill an unborn child..... without its consent 🤡

It's so adorable seeing you being excited to talk about abortion and being pro life!! We are here we exist!! And most importantly we won't get shunned by abortionists. In the end of the day History always showed that people who argued that some lives didn't matter, were not human have NEVER been on the right side of History. They're wrong, point blank. But you know what? I was pro choice by default for a goof chunk of my life, so I don't think all of them are irredeemable. Just like you did, counter information is important. Educating. With facts, logic, reality. Abortionists ride with ideology, feelings and mantra ("my body my choice" "consenting to sex isn't consenting to pregnancy" "clump of cell" "parasites"......) Because they know reality is not on their side

I have so many other things to say but I'll stop for now. Time to sleep!! I'll get back to you with added content to make a proper comment on your post&links!!

💟

#tbc #answered

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nanshe-of-nina · 3 years

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are you anti choice?

Definitely not, no. I'm strongly pro choice and always have been; I just refuse o call the "pro-life" that because I don't think they are. Most of their policies only make any sense at all if you assume they want to control and police sexuality, especially women's sexuality, not save lives.

This is why so, so many of them tend to oppose contraception and comprehensive sex education, despite that their proven effectiveness at reducing unplanned pregnancies and thus, abortion. It's also why they often don't care to support paid maternity and paternity leave, single payer healthcare, or subsidized childcare, despite the proven benefits of such things to parents and children.

This is why the idiot governor of my state (Texas) doesn't have a problem shutting down Planned Parenthood even though most of the services they provide are contraception and STI testing, not abortion: Social conservatives also hate contraception and tend to think anyone with an STI probably deserves it. That abortion bans and closing of PPs also tend to have a net negative effect on the poor also doesn't matter much to them, because so many of them also prefer to think of poverty as a moral failing or a symptom of laziness.

Granted, I suspect some anti-choicers actually do get sentimental about the thought of aborted babies (even though I often wonder if they know that about 30-50% of all fertilized zygotes will end up being miscarried, most of them without anyone being the wiser) but I seriously doubt that even a fraction of anti-choice politicians do; their brand of anti-choice is based almost completely on controlling sexuality and enforcing gender roles.

In any case, the more sentimental type of anti-choicers also often befuddle me because they seem to think that people just don’t understand that abortion means killing a human fetus. The problem is that most everyone actually does understand that and people advocate for the right to choose anyway, because the effects of pregnancy and childbirth are often lifelong, even if the baby is adopted by someone else.

#pro choice #abortion

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north-of-annwn · 5 years

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Ok so I'm not going to do this anonymously because i don't fear getting chastised for my own ignorance but there are other alternatives to abortion aren't there? I mean i honestly don't understand this bill nonsense but it mostly at least to me sounds like it's just to keep children alive. I mean there are adoption centers and people who will actually pay women who are pregnant to act as surrogates. Why is anti abortion so bad? And how is this a woman's autonomy probpem. Please educate me

First, I want to thank you for acknowledging that your perspective on this may be informed from a place of systemic oppression of AFAB people, and for seeking out information. When people add on to this post with the purpose to educate, I implore you all to remember this person is seeking information. Please avoid shaming them or ridiculing them.

Let’s first address your questions:

1) “There are other alternatives to abortion aren’t there?”

Let’s first define abortion. “In medicine, an abortion is the premature exit of the products of conception (the fetus, fetal membranes, and placenta) from the uterus. It is the loss of a pregnancy and does not refer to why that pregnancy was lost. A spontaneous abortion is the same as a miscarriage. The miscarriage of three or more consecutive pregnancies is termed habitual abortion or recurrent pregnancy loss” (Shiel MD, MedicineNet).

¼ womxn will have abortions in their lifetime. Abortion is a medical procedure that can be requested or required for a lot of different reasons:

The pregnant person may not be able to carry an embryo to term safely.

The pregnant person may not have the financial support to pay for the medical bills that pregnancy costs in the US (prenatal and delivery alone can cost around $18k).

I also want to add that people in this country are not given any kind of financial support for the time taken off for prenatal or postnatal care. Being out of work for this time could mean entering extreme poverty.

The pregnant person may not have the financial support or stability of lifestyle to support a child.

The pregnant person may not be physically up to the task of carrying a child to term and delivering. Not all womb-having people are up to what childbirth does to the body. Childbirth is one of the most dangerous things that a body can be put through. In the US we’re just under 20 maternal deaths per 100,000 births, which is the highest in the developed world. Some undeveloped countries have better stats than we do

Abortion may be required as an emergency life-saving procedure for the pregnant person. And waiting for approval by a committee could mean the death of that person.

Medical interference can also be needed if the embryo has already been determined unviable (basically will not ever have life) because having dead tissue remain in the womb will kill the person. Wombs don’t always do what they’re supposed to and often they will still act as if the pregnancy is going along normally when the embryo stopped growing and forming.

Abortion as a medical procedure is part of basic reproductive healthcare. Denying it is like denying the use of a c-section or blood transfusions.

I also want to add that many of these GOP states are seeking to classify any and all contraceptives as “abortion” as well. This isn’t included in this bill specifically but it’s been named as part of their agendas.

2) “I mean I honestly don’t understand this bill nonsense but it mostly at least to me sounds like it’s just to keep children alive.”According to the CDC, 91.1% of abortions are performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation. At this time, this is an embryo and fetal tissue. It’s not a child. Pro-life people are placing the eventual *possible* life of a being that isn’t even formed yet above the autonomy and rights of a living human being (the pregnant person). A zygote without a brain or the ability to survive outside the womb is not a person, and therefore not a child. We have determined that something without brain activity is not alive. People with wombs are not incubators. This is not the sum of our existence.

Right now you cannot force a person to give blood or organs in life-saving situations. Why should it be okay to force a person to donate their entire body as an incubator if they don’t want to, which has health complications, and long-lasting effects on the body? We even afford humans that are DEAD more rights than womb-having people in this country. It is illegal to take organs or tissue from dead bodies with no brain activity without consent, but it’s legal to force a living person to act as an incubator for tissue and chromosomes that aren’t even formed to make a person yet?

Also, this bill has SO much more nuanced support for the oppression of women than just keeping “children” alive. This affords the state the right to investigate any suspicion of “intentional abortion.” This means, if a person miscarries, they may be subject to invasive investigation and murder charges on top of grieving for their loss and recovering medically. This bill also in no certain terms basically considers all womb-having people in their state to be the property of the state by allowing people to be extradited and charged if they have a LEGAL abortion procedure in another state.

3) “I mean there are adoption centers and people who will actually pay women who are pregnant to act as surrogates. Why is anti-abortion so bad?” We currently have 108,000 foster children up for adoption right this second in the US. This doesn’t even include unwanted pregnancies being given to private adoption agencies. Adopt one if you want to save a child, but forcing people to enter crippling debt, put their body through the abuse of childbirth, and possible forced poverty because of lack of childcare or compensation for missing work isn’t okay.

Additionally, anti-abortion really only seems to be concerned with one thing - popping out children. There is ZERO concern for the health, wellbeing, or survival of that child OR the parent afterward. This is oppressive and forced childbirth expectations. And again, reduces womb-having people as nothing more than a means to an end. Their life and wellbeing aren’t considered - they’re incubators.

4) “How is this a woman’s autonomy problem.”All of the above. The entire idea of denying women normal reproductive medical procedures or criminalize a natural thing that our bodies DO is inherently oppressive. Deciding that a womb-having person is just supposed to do their best to carry to term an embryo regardless of danger to their life, medical needs, e, inability to care for the child, inability to pay medical bills, or the abuse that childbirth puts on the body… and possibly condemning them to death, poverty, or life-long debt removes the ability for a person to choose what is done or what is done TO their body. It’s inherently oppressive.

Make no mistake, these bills have very little to do with saving the lives of children, and everything to do with keeping women impoverished, oppressed, and without any control over their own bodies and lives. These bills are also written and signed without ANY input or oversight primarily by the people they affect. This is not a choice that womb-having people made… these are oppressive laws being forced upon them.

Some final personal notes from me: I am currently in a place where I would suffer greatly from these laws if they were to be implemented in my state. First of all, if I were to get pregnant, mine would be a high-risk pregnancy. It is likely that I could lose the pregnancy anytime within the first two trimesters, which would require an abortive procedure to remove the remaining tissue. If I’m to get pregnant, I need to know that modern medical procedures that are agreed to be the most effective best practices would be available to me by a doctor without the threat of criminalization or debating on whether it’s necessary/legal. This affects all people who may ever become pregnant. This is a clear and present fear for us. It’s not just anti-abortion. If that’s all it was… the answer would be simple, don’t have one. If you need one to save your life, you can choose to say no. But it’s not. This is about controlling womxn, denying us healthcare, and we are afraid. We are all desperately terrified of this becoming the new normal across our country. ONE in FOUR pregnancies ends in the need for abortion. And if you need one, you get one. This is about whether or not we have access to SAFE and MEDICALLY sanctioned abortions.

I really encourage you to do some additional research and reading from educational sites. Be wary of both FOX News, CNN, major news networks, and any journalists with a religious agenda. Further reading: https://prochoice.org/education-and-advocacy/downloads-resources/https://iwhc.org/2018/09/abortion-normal-and-vital/https://www.prochoiceamerica.org/issue/abortion-access/I’d really appreciate if any followers could tack on additional resources, statistics, and personal stories. This is SO important.

#abortion #reproductive rights #womxn's rights #women's rights #swamp-rat-king

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