I understand that there is a sizable amount of Jon stans whose delusions can be aggravating. Trust me, I’ve come across my fair share of people who think that the sun rises only for Jon Snow and no one else. But, it’s really annoying when certain sections of this fandom act like reading Jon as Azor Ahai is a result of Jon fans making shit up. No, we’re not. We’re literally reading what the text is telling us. We’re not reading into it, we’re reading it straight up. Mel’s singular ADWD chapter is literally just: hey Mel pay attention to Jon Snow, also there’s random stuff happening all over Westeros, and also pay extra attention to Jon Snow.

Mel’s visions are absolutely correct. What’s not correct is how she interprets them to fit an agenda/make herself appear more credible to others (Jon, Stannis). We already know exactly what this looks like when she sees towers being submerged in water, says it’s Eastwatch by the Sea when asked, even though in her head she’s like “oh it can’t be Eastwatch because that place doesn’t look like that”.

ADWD shows us that Mel looks into her fires searching for Azor Ahai and sees “only Snow”. There’s no other way of reading that other than “oh yeah if Mel is specifically looking for Azor Ahai and is seeing Jon Snow, then Jon is the Azor Ahai she’s looking for”. And the gag with this is Mel’s entire purpose, her existence, is to find Azor Ahai. But she completely misidentifies him so when she encounters the real deal, she’s in far too deep to make the obvious and necessary pivot. And it’s even funnier (and I think that’s what GRRM is going for) when there’s nothing special about Mel’s chosen hero Stannis, but there’s a lot that is special about the one she’s ignoring: Jon. Mel literally tells Jon “you’re a super special magic boy let’s make babies because of how super special you are, and these babies will be even more powerful than the ones I made with Stannis” but at the same time being like “yeah mr not-that-special Stannis is totally the guy I’m looking for”.

Plus, Mel’s “only Snow” is quite literally reaffirmed in Jon XII when he dreams himself atop the wall, armored in ice, and wielding LIGHTBRINGER. This isn’t some ordinary flaming sword. This sword burns “red in his fist”, which literally equates it to “the red sword of heroes” - Azor Ahai’s sword. Not only that but Mel’s ptwp is definitely going to be reborn. She has visions about a grey girl on a dying horse WHICH IS TRUE!! What’s not true is this girl being Arya. It’s Alys Karstark. She then has visions about daggers in the dark, which again happens!! Read the last few pages of Jon XIII ADWD. The one that hasn’t come yet but will (based on Jon XIII) is a “promised prince born amidst salt and smoke”. There’s a reason why GRRM included these things in the narrative. And there’s a reason why they happen sequentially. So unless Winds comes out and GRRM is like sike forget that ever happened, it’s pretty safe to assume that Jon is Azor Ahai.

SCENARIOS OF R+L from an anti r+l elia fan trying to defend and understand them

Now i did go on a rant about whats wrong with the rhaegar-lyanna relationship, and thats what i believe the strongest, there is some discrepancies and possible other scenarios that could have happened, especially since we know essentially nothing truly about robert’s rebellion. Let’s explain my thoughts on possible situations that could’ve occured.

1. Rhaegar needed an “ice women” in order to fulfill a song of ice and fire and hell with the wights.= Okay, so I do understand this, however I just think that this scenario undermines the fallacies of prophecy which is such an intergral part of asoiaf. Dany is so clearly imo the Promised Prince, meaning Rhaegar’s mission to create one was unnecessary. When it comes to this belief, I think Rhaegar believing this, making Jon and candidate for tptwp is a complete red herring, to show how the knowledge of prophecies does not mean that everything will run smoothly. And when it comes to this situation, there’s numerous smaller diverging scenarios too!

a. Lyanna and Elia were aware of Rhaegar’s beliefs and were in support= I don’t really think this makes much sense. If Elia and Lyanna were both aware, surely Rhaegar could’ve also told people other than a 14 year old and his wife, possibly involving Rickard Stark who literally would be in charge of the Night Watch where the wights and long night of winter would occur from. It feels more likely that he told Elia snippets, as shown during Dany’s vision of Aegon Vi’s birth, and left, seducing a willful young Lyanna with tales of love, never speaking of his true intentions, yet ultimately failing in his goal. Perhaps he could’ve fell in love with Lyanna during their travels and time spent in the TOJ, in a “forced proximity romance” sort of thing, yet I feel like if Lyanna was aware of any potential danger to the North, as much as I critique her, she would’ve told her family, after all they could be murdered by wights at anytime since she has great love for her family, so leaving them, while she was aware of upcoming calamities, makes Lyanna in this idea seem even worse than I think is most likely.

b. Rhaegar needs an “ice women” but doesn’t inform Lyanna= This just makes Rhaegar look like a worse man in regards to Lyanna. Adding onto how I personally feel the stark-targaryen ice-fire combo is just a red herring for Dany as the true ptwp, if this is how he envisioned the prophecy, he still has blame. While he takes Lyanna intent of saving the world from doom, the existence of Jon (i love him but…) is completely unnecessary in the context of the prophecy. With this scenario, which feels more likely to me, Lyanna is portrayed as most likely a girl who was seduced by Rhaegar spinning sweet tales of love, perhaps involving prophecy talks of “icy starks” and “hotd-blooded fiery targs” yet didn’t tell her the full prophecy,and he tragically pushed her, a young girl into a fate of death. Which gives the best perception of Lyanna I think personally and is what I believe occured (though Lyanna would still have partial blame for her circumstances), but makes Rhaegar a cunning man who seduced a fourteen year old for his own goals, even if he believed that could save the world and causing her death, away from the comforts of her home, bloodied and with her brother and father murdered.

2. Rhaegar and Lyanna genuinely fell in love during the TOH, and bonded in natural love= This perception just makes them feel extra selfish to me. Duty is such a big them within ASOIAF, while so running away from duties and Robert’s future wife is kinda valid, Rhaegar as the heir to such a tumultuous King, would be strongly aware of his duties. As heir to a controversial King, Rhaegar should be very diplomatic, engaging in politics, engaging with nobles+smallfolk and being involved with his family, so him running off is very selfish and worse than if he did so to “save the world”, since he is running away from his responsibilities which are so vital to the Realm.

New obsession is this fanfic series where Senju Tobirama is dropped into Game of Thrones pre- Robert’s rebellion and saved by Ned Stark inadvertently creating an Industrial Revolution in the North. Very much crack with politics, food descriptions, and a cute romance between Tobi and Ned. 10/10 recommend!!

This got me thinking about how the other founders would work in this situation and Tobi is 1000% the most well adjusted to ASOIAF universe LOLLL

Like Madara would commit regicide and INSTANTLY take over as King. Nobody would say anything bc: 1) he’s terrifying and has the power of a God 2) he’s actually very competent and takes his job seriously. The smallfolk are terrified but genuinely love him bc he cares about them and improves their lives. The nobility are also terrified but respect him bc he’s promoting infrastructure and he’s pretty fair, small council meetings have never been so productive bc he just glares away the arguments. Since he controls fire everyone also thinks he’s a bastard Targaryen which he HATES bc he’s the Uchiha Head and knows EXACTLY how much incest is required to preserve a bloodline limit hence is disgusted w/the sibling marriages (Rhagaer is screaming and thinks that he’s PTWP, and Rhaella personally crowns him). He does like the dragons tho and appoints Daenerys as his heir which is not helping the Targaryen allegations.

Hashirama on the other hand would brute force his way into a smallfolk revolution (tbh good for him). Since he’s THE Tree Man, everyone believes he’s the avatar for the Old Gods which inadvertently makes a lot of ppl convert. The smallfolk love him. The nobility obviously hate him but can’t do anything bc it’s HASHIRAMA. Omg the Citadel is SCREECHING bc he’s also a terrifyingly good healer. The North has mixed feelings bc they’re not trying start a religious war/still wanna keep their nobility status but they’re also happy bc they have more food than ever and he’s literally an avatar for the Old Gods so they leave him alone. Bloodraven is TERRIFIED of him and the Children of the Forest are confused but worship him.

Mito would ironically also pull a Madara and instantly takes over as Queen and introduces gender equality laws and infrastructure. Since it’s MITO everyone loves her/Good Queen Alysanne reborn. Smallfolk, Dorne and Lyanna worships the ground she walks on. Everyone thinks she’s a Tully but she confused them by saying she’s from an island making ppl think she’s an Ironborn 😭😭 (once finding out about the Ironborn culture she terrifies them into submission by instantly murdering half of them)

Rhaegar Targaryen’s greatest and only accomplishment in his life was marrying the beautiful, gentle and kind Elia Martell.

Hey! I just saw your piece of Dany in the Heart of Winter, so lovely! Could you elaborate a bit in that theory of yours? I had never heard of anything like it, and I thought it was very interesting!

Thank you so much!

Well, it goes a bit like this:

1) the number 1 reason why dragons will be absolutely necessary to the WftD is that they can fly (with human on their back of course!) Meaning that otherwise unreachable places (like the Heart of Winter) - places that are humanly unreachable - can be reached and thus, eventually destroyed.

2) There's never been dragons North of the Wall before (and Martin hung that giant riffle on the metaphorical Wall with Alysanne and Silverwing in FB), meaning that dragons will almost certainly end up flying beyond the Wall in the main story.

3) Melisandre currently believes that Stannis is the PTWP, and Stannis's banner is a burning heart. Maybe this is a nod to what TPTWP will have to do to fulfill the prophecy (burn a "heart", that is).

4) Coincidentally, Dany (and Drogon) do burn a "frozen heart" in ACOK, when they're in the HotU.

5) Dany's story has some interesting parallels with the biblical story of Samson, which I wrote about here. We know how Samson's story ends: he destroys all his enemies by making the temple collapse upon them all. He's able to kill them all in one swoop because he's in the temple (the "Heart of Winter") with them.

6) Remember the glass candles? They're made of obsidian/dragonglass, also known as "frozen fire". The riddle that goes around the Citadel is: "how do you lit it?" (And the answer is: it must be lit from the inside.)

7) A fire being lit from within the Heart of Winter would turn it into literal "frozen fire".

8) "Frozen fire" is, as we know, one of the only materials, along with valyriansteel, to be able to kill Others. So if the magic that sustains the Others comes from the Heart of Winter, and if the Heart of Winter is turned into a giant "frozen fire" candle...

9) In the original AA legend, AA creates Lightbringer by plunging his sword (Dany's fire) into Nissa Nissa's heart (the Heart of Winter). I know this is a bit flimsy, but if any heart gets stabbed to shoo off the Others in the books, it's definitely the Heart of Winter.

10) Dany is prophesized to lit three fires. I think this will be her third. Unsure about the link with "love" though (since it's "a fire to love"). Maybe because she's burning a "heart"?

11) Asoiaf delivers a very clear message about sacrifice vs self-sacrifice. The North protected itself against the Others for thousands of years by performing blood sacrifices (remember Ygritte telling Jon that the Wall is "made of blood"?). It worked ish, but not perfectly, nor permanently (judging by the current state of affairs).

I think that's it, in a nutshell! There's a few other things as well, but they're definitely more on the flimsy side, so I'll guess we'll have to wait and see XD.

Again, thank you so much for the kind words! I'm really happy that you liked my painting xoxoxoxoxox

I have been thinking recently about just how nuts it is that (presumably) Rhaegar named his half Dornish daughter after the conqueror who terrorized her mother’s/his wife’s homeland for almost a decade instead of like… literally anything else. Did Elia have any opinions about this? Did Rhaegar care? I just wonder like, was this something we were supposed to notice as an indication of a long pattern of selfish/thoughtless behavior, or is it just early installment weirdness and Martin hadn’t yet planned out exactly what happened during the conquest? Regardless, this is made extra interesting to me because it’s Daenerys who got the name that theoretically would have been perfect and symbolic for a princess of Dorne and the 7 Kingdoms, whose portrait Elia grew up with at the Water Gardens. Well. Rhaella, 1. Rhaegar, 0.

(Lots to think about. Maybe Elia, well aware of anti-Dornish sentiment, wanted an undeniably Targaryen name for her daughter. Maybe Elia did suggest Daenerys, Rhaegar ignored her, and Rhaella later gave the name to Dany as a tribute. Maybe Rhaella chose Daenerys on her own, as her own way to honor them. Maybe I’m just too easily slighted and no one in-universe actually cares. Who knows.) (I am also operating under the assumption that Rhaegar wasn’t yet trying to recreate the original trio and still thought he was the PTWP, since Rhaenys should have been Visenya otherwise.)

(Prev ask) Oh, I forgot to give Rhaegar his crumb of credit. I guess part of the reason I was thinking about this is bc daughters named after their fathers makes me froth at the mouth I love it. Serena Williams’s daughter, Alexis Olympia Jr, I’ve got a friend Regina named after her father Reginald, the MC in one of my favorite books growing up—I love it. So you know, I do potentially love very much that Rhaegar chose to name his daughter after himself instead of waiting for a son to pass the buck to, especially given that he was presumably named after Rhaella. It’s just too bad the first Rhaenys was… you know. And his wife is… you know. But other than that! Legacy!

Oh, for sure. There are so many possibilities for just what was running through his head - he wanted to give her, like, the most Targaryen name possible because she was half Dornish. He meant it as a reference to Rhaenys the Queen that Never Was, not the first Rhaenys. He wanted his child to have a name like his and his mother’s. And same with Rhaella when she was naming Dany - maybe Elia had wanted that name for Rhaenys; maybe Rhaella meant it as a tribute to her dead Dornish daughter in law and half Dornish grandchildren or as a message to her Martell relatives-by-marriage. Hell, it could just be that Martin hadn’t yet worked out the Martell-Targaryen history in the full detail at the time at which he named Rhaenys.

There is a bit of early installment weirdness regarding Dorne in the first book - for example, when Doran Martell is summoned, Arianne, his heir, is not mentioned. Instead, his “sons” are summoned along with him (Which is hilarious. Imagine if Doran had actually gone and brought Quentyn and Trystane, then Arianne stages a rebellion and just blinks innocently, like, “what? I never swore anything!”). During this book, the concrete things we learned were a) that Doran Martell is the current Prince of Dorne, b) Rhaegar’s wife was the Dornish princess Elia Martell, some relative of Doran (I’m pretty sure we don’t know that she was his sister specifically until A Clash of Kings), and c) Rhaegar and Elia's children were named Rhaenys and Aegon. That’s about it. So that to me implies that Martin wanted to give the kids these very Targaryen names, and worked in the other history later. Which is, I guess, the inverse of the Dany situation - her name obviously came first, then when Martin worked out the history, he gave Daeron’s sister who would marry Maron the same name, retroactively making her the Dany of the present era’s namesake.

With Dany, this is an easy change - regardless of why Rhaella gave her that name, we only know of one other Daenerys. So no matter why, it’s a reference to the Targaryen and Martell shared history and has the same effect. Not so much with Rhaenys because of the wider range of possibilities for why that could have been the chosen name. Without speculating on what the in-universe reason was for her to have that name, I think there are two main impacts this name has as a textual decision:

1. It furthers the already present idea that children are considered part of their father’s family, not their mother’s, regardless of the specifics of their maternal heritage.

2. It adds a little more detail to Rhaegar’s character through raising these questions.

It’s a really interesting writing choice, I think!

Sidebar: Is your username an Animorphs reference? That is literally my favourite series of all time, so thank you for that.

So, some speculation on how Bran Stark can become King of Westeros.

The series is called A Song of Ice and Fire and not Game of Thrones as GRRM reminds us - “ And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars,  but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in  the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters   fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a   righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis   XI.”

It is the fight against the Others - this existential apocalyptic threat to ALL mankind - that is more important than petty wars between humans over the Iron Throne. That is the central theme of the books unlike in the show. “When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits on the Iron Throne - Jeor Mormont”.

The Long Night is a horrendous event and Old Nan’s description of it sounds nightmarish.

“Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods”    

The Others … Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man.  There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and  died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women  smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and  felt their tears freeze on their cheeks. In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were  cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the  sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over  holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the  score, riding pale dead horses, and leading hosts of the slain. All the  swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and  suckling babes, found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through the  frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.

tldr - this shit is scary.

Unlike in the show, the Long Night is not going to last for 10 minutes near Winterfell and solved by Arya jumping from behind a tree and stabbing the Night King. The Long Night will probably be the central story of the last book and cover several months of dark winter and affect the whole of Westeros. In the books, Winter has already come to the North - Snowstorms so bad that even armies in the North are finding it hard to move and Winterfell’s walls are no longer seen. No army is crossing the neck into the North. Winterfell will most likely fall and the fight against the Others will continue down south.

Dany dreams of fighting the Others at the Trident -

“That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But  she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s   rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed  them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident  into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

The last time, the first men were only able to win with the help of the Children and it was the Last Hero - possibly Bran - who gets their help. Bran is the only character in the series heavily involved in this part of the story and he has already met the Children of the forest.

What if the only way the Others can be defeated is some kind of pact where Bran has to become the leader of Westeros for either the Children’s assistance or for the Others to retreat? We really need to know more about the Others and what they want - we probably get this in the next book - to get an inkling of why Bran could be king. We know absolutely nothing about them.

Similarly, the Children hate the Andals, faith of the seven, the lord of the seven kingdoms etc. considering the Andals burned down Weirwoods and destroyed them - what if they want Bran and the Old Gods in the south as a condition for help? 

Wouldn’t the whole of Westeros agree to this considering their very survival is what’s at stake? Again,  “When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits on the Iron Throne”.

I also very much doubt that the prophecies of Azor Ahai/PTWP are literal - they are about heroes who undertake great sacrifice to save the realm. The key being ‘sacrifice’ - for ex. Nissa Nissa. Giving up something they care about dearly. What if Dany has to give up the Iron Throne for the greater good? Wouldn’t she do it? This could be why Dany and Jon leave Westeros behind - sacrifice - and head for the lands beyond the wall.

Or it could be some kind of conflict between Bran Vs Jon/Dany?

I think Jon, Dany and Bran are the three heads of the dragon, three parts of the prophesied leader and each will play their part in humans winning the Battle for the Dawn. It would be a sacrifice for Bran as well to leave his home and the North for the south.

Will Bran as king undermine GRRM’s entire point about Aragorn and taxes? Yes, it does. Maybe this is where Tyrion comes into the picture. Without Jon and Dany, he’s the next best person to actually rule - and he does this for Bran, as Hand of the King. Maybe Bran is the figurehead and Tyrion the actual ruler - “ When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear  across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a  king”. - AGoT Jon . 

We still have two books left and a lot of story to cover and I think Bran will be getting a lot of POV chapters as GRRM delves more into the fantasy aspect of the series.

So possible character endings: Arya plays an important role being a leader of her people against the Others and ends up being the Stark in Winterfell. Bran ends up as King on the Iron Throne as a condition for either defeating the Others or getting them to retreat, Tyrion ends up Hand of the King/Defacto person actually involved in adminstration and ruling, Jon/Dany leave for beyond the wall and the rest of Westeros assume the Targaryens are dead and gone.

So King Bran is possible - this is high fantasy after all - but how GRRM gets there and whether it makes sense is indeed important and I guess we will have to wait and see if the seeds are getting planted in the next book. According to GRRM’s editor, he told her Bran’s endpoint so they could edit and plan TWoW better:

George is a very secretive fellow, and guards his secrets well. I do  know a few things from AWOW, but mainly because we had to shorten a few  elements in the book as it was already getting too long, and he had to  reveal a few secrets so I could help him redirect parts of the plot a  bit. I do know the endpoint of Bran’s story line—and Daniel Abraham, who  has been adapting the graphic novel of AGOT for me, knows where Tyrion  ends up.  - Anne Groel.

Book!Theon is Azor!Ahai, not Jon. It makes no sense narratively for Jon to be AA, and it’s the most stereotypical thing ever, and he’s already stereotypical, he’s the red flag for the audience. Theon’s chapters are full of hints, he has the perfect salt/smoke/stars/dragons thing at the end of ACOK, when he “dies”. His story is about destroying death, his entire narrative, with things that come from mythology and ancient literature, points to that. The show is trash, but don’t you think that it’s a little weird that Theon is there at the end and then Arya comes out of nowhere and becomes AA? And what ending does she get? Exploring the unknown SEA with SHIPS? Being free and on her own? Maybe it doesn’t make sense for her because it’s not for her. D&D already took everything else from Theon, they took this too. And even if he’s not AA, he’s still clearly connected to magic and all of that, he didn’t go though so much for nothing, he didn’t take his name back for the first time in his life, his name that literally means “godly”, for nothing. He has something big to do, and it’s about himself, not Robb and the Starks. And he’s also so clearly connected to the politics of the north and of the iron islands, a villain was literally created for him, so I don’t understand how can you say he’s not really important and all he’s got left to do is retire in a house and be sad. Of course he has a lot of trauma and that’s important, but I don’t like how people reduce him to that and act like just because those things happened, he can’t do anything else

anon with no ill will and I swear I don't want to sound pedantic or anything but I, uh, never came to the conclusion you say I came from - that said let's go in order even if I think I already went through all the reasons why it makes literally no sense if it's anyone but jon, but let's start with one thing:

It makes no sense narratively for Jon to be AA, and it’s the most stereotypical thing ever, and he’s already stereotypical, he’s the red flag for the audience.

it's stereotypical.... to us maybe, but it is not to westeros. like, you're looking at it through audience-lens because it has been years and the show confirmed r+l=j and we all figured that shit out, but to westeros, the idea that the prince that was promised is a bastard guy serving on the wall aka a state-sponsored prison where people go to not die and is filled to non-desirables to society is... the least likely option in existence? no really, but again:

first thing that should quiet all doubts, when melisandre asks r'hollor to see azor ahai bc she wants to see stannis, r'hollor shows her jon snow and instead of going like 'uh wait why am I seeing another dude' she's like 'I want to see stannis but r'hollor shows me jon snow there must be some disturbance on the line', like she doesn't even consider for a second that it might be jon;

no one else has brought WITHIN THE NARRATIVE jon up as a likely candidate - they said stannis, they said dany, they said whoever but no one ever said hey jon snow might be AA, because again no one even suspects that it might be jon;

other matter that you're overlooking here: if theon is azor ahai.... it means that the rebellion basically was for nothing? because like the entire shtick with rhaegar targaryen's bad life choices™ is that he was apparently a swell dude, then he read a book where somehow it was exactly explained how the apocalypse was gonna happen, he deduced that he was the guy who had to father AA/the prince that was promised and in order - first he doesn't care about fighting but suddenly after that he starts getting learned; - he immediately worries over having THREE children from which we can deduce from the narrative that as far as he knows in order to fight when the wights come he has to have three kids for three dragons and one of them is azor ahai; - the moment his wife can't have more than two even if he's sure that he already had the right one (aegon) he still runs off with lyanna to make sure he has the third because it's that important that HE rhaegar targaryen fathers the three heads of the dragon... to the point of starting a civil war and most likely giving arthur orders to make sure that the kid lives at all costs even if he thinks lyanna's kid is NOT AA; - let's remember that the entire schtick is also that 'he is the ptwp and his is the song of ice and fire' which means that this kid of rhaegar's is the person these books are titled after.

now, let's look again at tyrion's infamous quote which I always bring up in these cases but let's refresh our memory here Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head now: given this, we can absolutely assume that no single prophecy in this book goes the way the person at the end of it interprets it... which means that rhaegar was wrong on a lot of accounts, but guess what, the thing is that one out of three of his kids is dead (if we count aegon as trueborn, if he's not then two on three but I think he's trueborn) and the one who hatched the eggs/has the dragon is DANY so he already was wrong on head of the dragon #1, and he can absolutely be wrong on aegon being tptwp which would mean mistake #2 and we should know about the prophecy, but one of his children being AA and his being the song of ice and fire looks a bit too much of a stretch to be incorrect and have AA being someone else's son also would be.... but if AA is jon ie the one he had for last that he was sure was not AA and who doesn't even have the targ name (nor the stark one) and no one suspects having that kinda ancestry then yes it fits exactly all the parameters and it still allows for rhaegar to have partially misinterpreted the entire thing even in large chunks but not enough to make it look like he was completely making shit up, which... I mean the long night is coming I don't doubt he had very good reasons to want to stop it; also, anon not to beat the dead horse, but: - jon's death fits all the prophecy parameters already there's the bleeding star, the smoking wound and the salt of the tears which btw is not obvious nor something you'd immediately do 2+2 about... which fits perfectly with the above - jon died and came back to life in the godforsaken show like he's literally the only idiot who resurrected in it and we're supposed to handwave it the way dnd did? - jon has a valyrian steel sword that he can handle while theon atm really doesn't - we could argue that ygritte could be a possible nissa-nissa contender though I mean maybe it could also be that he and val get hot and bothered and it turns out it's her or someone else and that hasn't happened yet but surely there's more evidence for that with jon than with theon - theon has like... povs in two books for a total amount of less than fifteen chapters, jon has at least ten chapters per book or so on, which just mathematically makes jon a main fiver character while theon is not and like I understand deconstruction and all but you don't make your ace in the hole mystical prince hero character someone who has had fifteen chapters total at most unless I remember wrong the amount he had in acok in comparison to someone who was a main throughout the entire thing - like guys I say it as someone whose third-fave char is theon, theon is not a main fiver™ character and that's okay that's not the point, and with that I don't mean he's not important, I mean that he's not one of the five main ones that have most of the plot stuff on their shoulders and he's not THE main character, because if theon is AA then these books are named a song of theon greyjoy and considering that the main five are jon tyrion arya dany and bran I think it's highly not probable that at the end of it theon is the one character to rule them all

and that was for how jon fit the criteria, but theon doesn't fit them because again he doesn't have a number of chapters/povs that justifies such a plot twist, balon is certainly not rhaegar and I don't see how rhaegar reads a prophecy wrt balon and thinks it's about him, the heads of the dragon should be three and theon had three siblings two of which are dead and asha has no tie to the dragon storyline, this means that theon should be able to ride/command a dragon and we know that in theory just targs can and there's already three of them around - dany jon and aegon - and if anyone who's not a targ has a narrative reason to ride a dragon is tyrion not theon... and tyrion is a main fiver too, also there's the nissa-nissa/burning sword angle and as it is theon could absolutely use a bow again but a longsword with his hands maimed like that and no muscle mass would be a bit implausible, in order for the reborn prophecy to actually make sense it means his last adwd chapter should have smoke, salt and the bleeding star which it doesn't but jon's has so there's that

now, re what you said wrt theon:

Theon’s chapters are full of hints

not really? he doesn't have a tie to the magical storyline beyond his connection to bran. they have hints for a lot of things but that he's AA? idt so

he has the perfect salt/smoke/stars/dragons thing at the end of ACOK, when he “dies”

okay but then I could use the same argument for saying that AA could be davos when he survives blackwater because he says he woke up in wreckage of smoke in salty water, and then stannis has equally valid arguments bc he has the shiny sword and he's in dragonstone etc and we all know it's not stannis, also an AA death at the ending of acok when the topic has barely been introduced in dany's vision is entirely too early for me to drop that bomb

his story is about destroying death, his entire narrative, with things that come from mythology and ancient literature, points to that.

his story is about overcoming trauma and abuse and not dying in the process (which is why I think the show was trash) and okay but everyone in these books has something that comes from a mythology or ancient literature, like jaime brienne and c. all have arthuriana roots same as bran, doesn't make any of them a viable AA candidate

The show is trash, but don’t you think that it’s a little weird that Theon is there at the end and then Arya comes out of nowhere and becomes AA?And what ending does she get? Exploring the unknown SEA with SHIPS? Being free and on her own? Maybe it doesn’t make sense for her because it’s not for her.

considering that maisie williams was shocked that arya was AA and she also thought it made no sense and that dnd never thought theon had his own storyline while I can agree on the fact that it fits more for him as an ending than for arya, I don't think that means it makes him AA, same as I think that they gave sansa his storyline and possibly his confrontation with ramsay and I'm not 100% convinced on the last part anyway but that just means they didn't realize theon doesn't exist for the starks' storyline, also like.. in the show everyone but c. was in WF and theon was already dead when arya did her thing and honestly idt the battle of the long night will ever go like that anyway so idt even partially show truthing is bringing us anywhere

and even if he’s not AA, he’s still clearly connected to magic and all of that, he didn’t go though so much for nothing, he didn’t take his name back for the first time in his life, his name that literally means “godly”, for nothing

I never said it was for nothing which I'll elaborate in a second and ofc he's connected to the magic storyline... because he's connected with bran's storyline and his last round of atonement has to happen through bran in the sense that since he was the one basically forcing bran out of wf now he most likely has to facilitate bringing him back or smth (surely not dying for him), but like whatever magical stuff he has going on it has to do with bran dot, not with AA which I still think he doesn't have a stricter text connection to than davos has for that matter and idt davos is AA as I think I made clear

He has something big to do, and it’s about himself, not Robb and the Starks.

never said he didn't, and I also said that I wasn't going to speculate in detail about what theon has to do because I don't think there are enough text elements to say it now but there will be when wow comes out for sure, but like again I don't want to make predictions when I don't have the elements and wrt theon's themes/possible canon ending etc I always said that he most likely isn't going to inherit the islands but that he'll do something huge before the books are done which is gonna be tied to the northern storyline and possibly to bran because he has to go specular to acok - acok is his downfall, adwd is 'I'll find myself again', wow+ados have to be what would theon do if he decides his own thing while being his own person, or recycling my old THEON HAS HEGELIAN THEMES IN HIS STORYLINE acok = thesis, adwd = antithesis, wow+ados = synthesis so obviously he has something huge in the plans.... I just don't think it means he's AA

And he’s also so clearly connected to the politics of the north and of the iron islands, a villain was literally created for him, so I don’t understand how can you say he’s not really important and all he’s got left to do is retire in a house and be sad

aaand here we get to the point which is that... I never said that? I honestly never said that? I said he has to overcome his trauma and live and thrive and be happy after that. if he retires in a house at the end of ados after he does whatever he has to do in the main plot it's going to be because it's what he wants to do and most likely he and jeyne are going to be adorbs while doing it together or smth or if he goes back to the islands and advises asha then he's going to be happy doing that too, but like... the entire point of theon's sl is that he overcomes that horrendous abuse while not being a perfect good victim™ throughout and still be happy after and gain his redemption? that's what I always said. I never said that now he can just retire and be sad. trauma recovery is becoming happy after getting over your trauma. not being sad. and like.... sometimes not getting amazing mythological things but just being happy by yourself is actually a goal? again, grrm is a lapsed catholic. if I know that breed and I do, he doesn't think redemption and happiness are in shortage at the supermarket. and in order for theon to have narrative importance/weight/relevance he doesn't have to do magical mythological IMPORTANT™ things (even if I think he does have something cooked up as I said above), but like the entire point of his sl is the trauma recovery. he's there for that. that's literally his point in the plot and the fact that grrm created a villain for him means that he thinks it's an important thing to explore.

also I personally think that theon's arc is the best written thing in those books so like I don't want to undermine its importance, I just don't think that in order to be important™ then theon has to be dragged kicking and screaming into main fiver territory because there isn't the need.

. Of course he has a lot of trauma and that’s important, but I don’t like how people reduce him to that and act like just because those things happened, he can’t do anything else

I don't like that either esp. when coming from dnd who didn't even let him have it fully, but: and when did I ever do it? I never said that theon is only his trauma. my standing opinion wrt theon is that he's grrm's best written/constructed character (along with jaime) and his most innovative one (jaime following but theon wins it) because theon deconstructs the backstabber trope which I already went on about but:

again usually ppl who backstab the good protagonist™ get caught and punished and you never hear their pov

theon has all the povs

he's the main char in that storyline not robb

he has entirely understandable reasons that ppl decided aren't sympathetic just bc they don't want to admit that in his position they'd have done the same thing

the audience hates him for having contributed to robb's downfall but then he gets a comeuppance that's completely not what anyone would deserve for that and he gets the spotlight/the sympathy again

he gets narrative redemption saving jeyne so you can see he's not an asshole at all

has to get through horrific abuse for his entire life not just with ramsay, he's not a good victim™ but he's still written in a way that makes you want to root for him and at the end he actually comes through so you want him to keep on succeeding

which is smth that with the backstabber trope never happens

now the thing is that theon's there bc a) identity issues b) trauma recovery storylines that then get tied to bran's main one but like idg why just having the recovery storyline would make him lesser - saying he's not a main fiver doesn't mean he's not important, it means he's not a MAIN™ character... which in asoiaf doesn't matter bc even ppl without povs are important to the narration and are there to drive a point (see sandor and stannis), and I don't see why saying that the most important part of his sl/the one grrm wants to stick with the readers is the survivor part of it rather than whichever heavy magic related plot thing he has to play in the future means undermining his importance. and while I think he has that role, idt it's the most important one he has bc being a survivor is what sells his storyline/the entire arc of his character.

then if come wow I'm wrong I'll be like okay I fucked up, but: honestly, imvho there is no way that azor ahai is not jon snow, the fact that collectively as a fandom we think it's obvious doesn't mean people in westeros do, each single point of evidence is at jon and if occam's razor is a thing then it's jon and that's okay because as deconstructed chosen one as he is, jon is still the protagonist of these books and regarding the prophecy above, it makes a lot more sense that this series is titled a song of jon snow and not a song of theon greyjoy and I say this as someone who vastly prefers theon as a character. also, if smth is well-written, readers should see it coming, so the fact that jon is AA isn't predictable if it's true, it's grrm.... knowing how to write a book and plant his hints because if everyone guessed right then if he makes it suddenly someone else bc jon is too predictable then it's dnd making it arya bc SURPRISE WE NEEDED YOU TO GO LIKE WTF HAS JUST HAPPENED INSTEAD OF FOLLOWING THE NARRATION TO ITS NATURAL CONCLUSION, not 'it's too predictable' or the audience red herring the way jaime being the valonqar is an audience red herring. jon being AA should be absolutely obvious for the reader who paid attention and a total surprise for the other characters in the narration, the audience red herring is more dany than anyone else imvho and I'm dying on that hill for now, thanks for coming to my ted talk but like I don't see how it's anyone but jon personally X°D

In the end Dany won against the WoT fans. But it was very noticable that a significant part of them used run-of-the-mill trash takes known from the ASOIAF book scene to attack Dany (when they didn't just use the show finale to slander).You know, the type of ASOIAF nerds who proudly claim S8 is the expectable endgame for her book character, too. And in fact, that is what many also tweeted all the time, they moved from that scene to TWOT. The shitty takes infiltrate other fandoms, too, sigh.

Since I got this ask and I’m feeling petty right now, here are some observations from these polls:

As Rob pointed out in another post, before Moraine competed against Dany, she had received a lot less votes (which indicates that, in this recent poll, a lot of people were now focused on voting against Dany rather than for Moraine), namely ~1464-1465 votes (60,5% of 2421 votes) in a poll against against Harry Potter. Now, to be sure, that Moraine won against Harry Potter shows that she too has a loyal fanbase, so there were a number of people voting for her that may have simply preferred her over Dany (though there was certainly some overlap between her fans and Dany haters and also some people that don’t know Moraine and voted for her to defeat Dany too). And Dany’s previous poll hadn’t received as many votes either (she won against Black Panther with 63.8% of 3163 votes, i.e. ~2017 votes), so things are understandably getting heated now that we’re getting to the end. 

Even with these factors in mind, though, I still think it’s pretty telling that the poll Dany was in received 25054 votes, while the other three polls only received from 8110 to 12037 votes. And since Dany won with 54.9% of these 25054 votes, this means that she received ~13754-13755 votes (more than the total number of votes from all of the other three polls! Go, Dany stans!) and that Moraine got ~11299-11300 votes. While I’m glad that Dany’s fanbase is strong and faithful, it’s safe to say that her haters are almost as loud, because they could have also filled their own poll with that number of votes (and yes, as I acknowledged, some people know and prefer Moraine, which is fine on its own, but her votes were certainly bolstered by Dany haters, who were in the comments calling Dany “inbred Hitler”, “inbred targaryen bitch”, “war criminal”, a less positive “representation of womanhood” in comparison to Moraine and other nonsensical insults that I won’t bother to look at). Dany’s haters really were that eager to see her lose.

In the future, Dany is going to compete against Mulder and Scully. They received ~6680-6681 votes (55% of 12037 votes) in a poll against Spider-Man. I’m curious to see how much their number of votes will grow now that they’re going against the Mother of Dragons. Some of their fans will rush in to support them at this stage, that’s for sure, but a lot of people exclusively hate Dany (or hate her more than they like the two FBI agents) and will try to help as well. It blows my mind that Dany’s haters are as devoted to her as her fans.

Re: people claiming that S8 is the expectable endgame for her book character, this infuriates me too (and partly (only partly) explains why so many think the nasty things they’re saying about Dany are acceptable). When it comes to the show, a lot of Dany fans already presented compelling evidence that the show writers changed the ending at the last minute merely for shock value. When it comes to the books, a lot of Dany fans already explained with detailed evidence that Dany’s characterization is more nuanced than having “two” sides (a “peaceful” one and a “violent” one), but people hold on to that narrative because they judge her most controversial moments by modern standards that the other characters aren’t held to. A lot of Dany fans already explained that her war for the Iron Throne isn’t any more morally problematic than Northern independence, but these people refuse to listen. A lot of Dany fans (including feminist women of color) already explained why Dany isn’t a white savior and why her campaign in Slaver’s Bay isn’t imperialistic, but rather a morally righteous war, but these people refuse to listen. A lot of Dany fans already showed, with lots of quotes, how book!Dany is compassionate, intelligent, self-critical, humble and way too lenient (which shows that she was made to fall in the show for reasons that were entirely made up), but these people still think that she’s arrogant, entitled, brash, violent, excessively driven by prophecies, dumb, etc (nevermind that GRRM wrote Dany as a foil to Cersei). A lot of Dany fans already provided the evidence making it clear that she is AA/PTWP/SWMTW, but they pretend it isn’t there. I could go on and on when it comes to all the misconceptions that Dany fans have already replied to that make it impossible for show!Dany’s ending to be the same (even the general points) as book!Dany’s, but these people don’t care. They’re lazy douchebags who already made up their minds about Dany and will continue to bash her and write literal hundreds of pages about how she’s just like Donald Trump because they take pleasure in doing so. Even so, yeah, it makes me angry that they’re so dedicated to their hatred that they’ve influenced how people from other fandoms view her. It makes me angry that the common view of Dany is so far off from her book canon characterization.

How “The Dany-Show” ruined GoT at the core: 3-point system

1. Sansa vs. Cersei: 

How is it possible that we had a million reunions - many of them involving secondary characters for fluff and fan service with zero impact on the plot - but these two women who had so much drama, so much unresolved business, never saw each other again? This is where you would have found the good story to tell and a major plot strand to resolve: the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters. This is what started it all, this is where it should have ended. This is the story they should have focused on. 

So why didn’t they? 

Because Game of Thrones was already dead and gone and the series had become The Dany-Show and nothing but The Dany-Show. 

Every character, every story arc, everything had to be directed towards Dragon Barbie and her drama. So of course there was no time or space for anything that was not related to the The Dany-Show. Basically a black hole that sucked all the great storylines and characters into its dark void. 

Massive loose plot strands like the Stark-Lannister showdown were left to rot, because it was far more important to show off that CGI budget for gratuitous dragon shots and inane conversations between secondary character including sex jokes on the main. 

There was literally more screen time allotted to the dragons than to Cersei...

After four seasons of Sansa and Cersei constantly referring to each other and the day they would meet again (willingly or not), it’s scandalous that they shoved so many characters back together for pointless reunions that were more or less blatant fan service (Bronn and the Lannister boys, really?!) but the big conflict, the personal drama that was playing out between Sansa and Cersei - that had actually taken on political dimensions now - did not even get a single scene? 

Wrong choice. 

I mean can you even imagine how Lena and Sophie would have acted the shit out of their reunion, because I can and it makes me furious that we were robbed of it. When two characters have so much unfinished business, so much foreshadowing and so much history that still isn’t resolved, the least you can expect is to give them at least a half-assed resolution - but we did not even get that, because it had nothing to do with The Dany-Show. Because all the characters have to only think about Dany and relate to Dany and if there is to be a conflict between female characters, it has to involve Dany and no one else. 

Poor Lena deserved better than to be reduced to playing a two-dimensional shadow of Cersei Lannister who was little more than a prompt giver to The Euron Greyjoy Side-Show (because sex jokes!) 

Also Bonus fuck-up: the prophecy of the YMBQ? Cersei died in the arms of Jaime, if anything Dany’s attack had given her back the one person/thing she cares about. So how exactly did Dany rob her of “all you hold dear” when Dany’s attack caused Jaime to literally drop Brienne like a hot potato, declare his undying love for Cersei and run back into her arms for his final moment? 

Before that, Sansa had already “taken” Jaime into her services together with Brienne. He’d actually switched sides to serve “another queen” (just not Dany) and at least this prophecy made sense for two seconds but of course the YMBQ had to be Dany because it’s The Dany Show, whether it makes sense or not...

They just didn’t care anymore, did they? 

2. Little...who?: 

So we have half a dozen characters rolling up to Winterfell who knew Littlefinger and his dirty business, and Arya, Sansa and Bran are about to go: 

Only for some reason: NO ONE asks. 

There is not a single reference to the fact that the Stark kids found out that Littlefinger is the mastermind behind 90% of everything that has happened since S1 and that he was executed for this. It’s like it never happened and he never existed and neither did all the important plot points before S8. 

Did Jon ever find out that Littlefinger betrayed Ned and conspired with the Lannisters to bring down the Starks? 

Did Tyrion ever find out that Littlefinger framed him at the Purple Wedding?

Did Varys ever find out that his nemesis was outsmarted and defeated by three teenagers?

Nope. Nope. And nope.  

Ain’t we all?

A character who’s been hailed as MVP by a huge part of the fandom because he knew how to network and play the game™ that is advertised in the title like no other, isn’t even mentioned again. One of the most popular theories re: S8 was (ridiculous as I found it myself) “Littlefinger isn’t dead” because many people felt he was still important to the story and there was also a lot of unfinished business with other characters he was connected to...Jon, Varys, Tyrion, Cersei, Sansa...

Instead, Littlefinger himself, his death and every plot point he was ever involved in was simply erased -  because Littlefinger and his relation to these characters had nothing to do with, i.e. did not contribute to...you guessed it...The Dany-Show and therefore POUF, he never existed...

3. R+L = who gives a f***

But you know, these are minor grievances compared to the fact that Jon’s character was not only dumbled down and turned into a complicit in genocide...

Jon’s parentage story arc - you know, THE big revelation and PLOT TWIST  - was turned into a side note, a five-minute mini drama that was more about how this will affect poor little Dany and her feelings. 

They gave us scenes of Dany waxing on about how Jon’s being the one true king stresses her out because she wants the throne and what she expects him to do about it - but they ROBBED us of the moment Jon tells the Stark siblings that he is not truly their brother, but their cousin. 

Because who cares about how Jon feels about this and his “siblings” coming to terms with the fact that:

their father Ned Stark had kept Jon a secret from everyone 

that he had not fathered a bastard and betrayed their mother

but saved the one true heir, at cost of his honour, 

they lived with the Targaryen crown prince and raised him under everyone’s nose...

No, no, the important thing is how Dany feels about it all and how it affects her. 

After the huge build-up, the theories, the overt foreshadowing,  even more infuriating - after throwing poor Elia and her children under the bus and making Jon legitimate...

After literally EVERYTHING in this series leading up to the moment when everyone would know who Jon Snow truly is...it had no effect on the story whatsoever, besides contributing to Dany finally revealing the full extent of her insanity (which was only a matter of time anyways)

Heir to the Iron Throne? Targaryen Prince? Rhaegar’s son? PTWP?

The point is: Drama for poor little Dany because her nephew doesn’t want to fuck her anymore is the actual heir. 

You can’t even say that it led to her advisors finding out and betraying her because that is something they should have done ages ago, at the latest when she burned the Tarlys. It gave them a legitimate alternative option, yes, but it was not the first time they thought she needs to go...

At least R+L=J served one good purpose: it rubbed Dany’s nose in it that she is not special at all. She is NOT the last Targ, nor the “princess that was promised” - and it was never her destiny to rule, she was only ever the “aunt” of the prince. 

Sadly, this is again ALL about Dany and her feelings and how everyone else reacts to her in light of the news that Jon is Aegon. 

So R+L=J is not even about Jon in the end, it’s just another element of The Dany-Show. And once Dany is gone, it’s like R+L=J also got erased (just like Littlefinger and the Stark-Lannister-conflict) 

...because let’s just send the Head of House Targaryen and last of his line beyond the wall again just because the murderous army of the mad tyrant, whom he heroically freed us from, demands it...and of course we have to wrap up the last five minutes of this shitty episode. 

Conclusion: 

D&D just REALLY didn’t care anymore once The Dany-Show was over and it’s painfully obvious to see. The good news is that all of these plot points that got erased/dumbled down/ignored^^ are things that are important to GRRM, which gives me hope for the last books at least...

1) Unpopular opinion: Rhaegar, Lyanna, and maybe Dany wouldn't have a storyline w/o the existence of Elia. Rhaegar would've flopped w/o the Dornish support bc no other bride's family controlled an entire region who were as united and loved their Princess as much as Elia. The Dornish adored Elia I mean no offense but the North/ Riverlands weren't fighting exactly for Sansa/ Ned's girl only goes so far (which breaks my heart that Sansa wasn't a priority like Elia was) but still Dorne killed itself

2) and defended Elia to the last drop: 10,000 Dornish bodies dead BC of bitch ass Rhaegar. Elia's children led Rhaegar to believe that he wasn't the PTWP, and Lyanna/ him rests on Rhaegar already HAVING a perfect wife. The Lannisters storyline RESTS on Elia's bones. Elia is basically the Ned of RR's in my opinion and that's why everyone tries to tear her down bc she is the MOST important person in RR. It gives me goosebumps whenever I think about Aegon VI coming back as the promised prince

3) to fight the ppl who savaged his mother (not even an animal could kill her that barbarically it's sick) along w/ his cousin to avenge the fallen Dornish bodies. It doesn't even matter if he's fake (though that's brownface and unless GRRM doesn't want to get it Aegon VI is real in my book lmao) bc the idea of brown ppl finally getting their due and being in a position most fantasy doesn't allow for Arianne/ Aegon VI figures + Arianne is hilarious and Aegon VI's youthful brashness seems

4) Really interesting, I love seeing his confidence bc all of the other "good" characters have literally being shit on and their values taken away from them it gives me Valarr Targaryen vibes idk the Young Prince who's confident in his abilities

i agree

So... I just finished GOT 8x06, and literally, the only way this mess makes any sense is if Bran - or rather the Tree Eyed Raven who took over his body - was actually an evil force all along who set in motion a chain of events that would inevitably end with him on the throne of Westeros. 

Because, since Jon’s origins literally had no other point but to make Dany feel unseated and push her over the edge, then why did Bran insist upon the fact that (and I quote) “he had to know” that he was the true born heir to the iron throne? 

Bran KNEW that this path would lead to the genocide of an entire city and did nothing to stop it, he KNEW it would lead to Jon having to kill one of the heir, becoming a queenslayer (and kinslayer) in the process, effectively relinquishing his own claim in turn. Everything Bran did feels like a set up to get everybody standing in his path out of the picture as to insure he would end up where he is at the end - and that include his line about “coming all the way here”. 

This truly feels like we’re missing an episode explaining how the Tree Eyed Raven has been messing with the past all along the same way he messed with Hodor: turning Aerys, then Daenerys crazy, making Rhaegar Targaryen obsessed with the (quite useless in the end) PtWP prophecy to jump start Robert’s rebellion and lead to the birth of Jon Snow. He knew this path would end up with him seizing power you see, so he made it happen; making the ultimate reveal be that the whole thing was always a ploy for him and his allies, the children of the forest, to take back control of Westeros from the men. They were still at war against them you see, the men had just forgotten and Bran is there to be their “memory” indeed.

Bran even gave Arya the dagger she would eventually use to kill the Night King, AKA the only entity with the power to end him and his evil plan. The Night King was the good guy all along, and our heroes unknowingly fought against him writing their own dooms in stone. 

Yes this is ridiculous, but so is show, so: team #the night king did nothing wrong and “chaos is a ladder” indeed

We need to talk about Jenny

So, like, was Jenny’s Song the one Rhaegar sang at Harrenhall which made Lyanna cry?

... ’CAUSE IT SURE AF MADE ME CRY!!!!

I mean, I’m pretty sure we never find out what he sang, but I just wanna know everything about this damn song.

Things I’ve gleaned so far, whether from previous research or stuff I read today (tried to confirm everything with awoiaf):

     * Jenny was a Riverlands woman with the blood of the First Men who met and married Duncan Targaryen, heir to the Iron Throne (Egg’s son, probably named for Duncan the Tall). Duncan also had the blood of the First Men through his mother, a Blackwood.

     * Duncan gave up his claim to the throne to keep his marriage to Jenny, who was lowborn. They still hung out at court, and she was beloved of the smallfolk.

     * Duncan also gave up his betrothal to a Baratheon girl, pissing off Lord Lyonel Baratheon so bad he declared himself the new Storm King and died trying to secede (killed by his once friend Duncan the Tall iirc). The rift was healed by marrying Rhaelle Targaryen to a Baratheon (Robert’s grandfather).

     * Duncan is the one who declared Barristan “the Bold” btw. He’s also Maester Aemon’s nephew.

     * Jenny and Duncan met at Oldstones, a ruined keep in the Riverlands. Catelyn and Robb stopped there on their way to the Red Wedding. Catelyn remembers playing Jenny and her “prince of dragonflies” with Petyr when they were kids and spent the night there.

     * Duncan was among those killed at Summerhall.

     * The Brotherhood’s minstrel sings Jenny’s song for the Ghost of High Heart in exchange for some prophecies. He sings it again the next time the Brotherhood meets with her and again when they’re waiting at Oldstones for someone else.

     * Her prophecies largely revolve around the Starks and Sansa in particular. Arya is there to hear them, but doesn’t know what they mean. 

     * The Ghost of High Heart had gone to court with Jenny and had predicted the Prince that Was Promised would be born of Aerys and Rhaella’s line.

     * Marillion sings Jenny’s song at the Eyrie while Sansa is disguised as Alayne.

I don’t know what any of this means per se, I’m just so stoked that it touches on so many characters across so many generations and storylines. I knew a lot of this stuff kind of separately and fuzzily from my old research dives into Dunk and Egg and Summerhall and prophecies. But it never occurred to me that all these things were connected by the song, or that such a book-centric touchstone would be used so prominently or so effectively on the show (at least not this late in the game, post-a-billion-divergences). 

There’s a whole Jonsa argument to be made for this song (which I tend to agree with), but I think that’s a too-narrow interpretation. There’s so much more to it.

     * Arya and Sansa both heard it in their travels.

     * Littlefinger remembers it bitterly. Catelyn remembers it fondly.

     * Duncan, Robb and Rhaegar all abandoned marriages/engagements for love to the detriment of the realm. Jon abandoned a crown for love (I guess).

     * Jenny’s story deeply affected Gendry’s ancestors. And I don’t remember, but I wanna say he was still with the Brotherhood to hear it sung with Arya.

     * It was literally about Dany and Jon’s family.

     * It’s associated with the PtwP prophecy.

     * It’s associated with the Brotherhood.

     * It wasn’t Sansa’s favorite story/song growing up, but it’s the reason Michele Clapton put dragonflies on Sansa’s early costumes.

     * It’s associated with Summerhall, where Brienne’s ancestor died valiantly and Rhaegar was born.

     * Barristan Selmy mentions the story (to Dany, I think).

     * And it’s just straight up about losing loved ones, which is relatable to everyone.

And Nerd Soup just put up a theory vid that goes one step further and posits that Jenny’s song was what Dany heard Rhaegar singing in her vision. That might be a little too tinfoil-y, even for me, but it warms my stressed out little heart that the song has inspired so much discussion.

This nonsense is keeping me sane in the week before Endgame. 

What D&D (probably) tried to do with Daenerys (and why it failed)

They made Dany the “Great Other” of the AA/PTWP prophecy, while also turning her into Nissa Nissa, killing two birds with one stone. “King’s Landing gets destroyed” and “The legend of AA/Nissa Nissa will play an important role in the endgame” might’ve been two major bullet points given to the producers by Martin, and D&D decided to bring those on screen by (essentially) retelling the three forging of Lightbringer as the three “battles against evil” in season 8: the Night King was the water, Cersei was the lion’s heart and Dany was Nissa Nissa. Jon gets to be AA after all and delivers the final blow. They weren’t exactly subtle about Dany being the “Great Other” as well, considering the abnormal amount of snow falling on King’s Landing just as she had taken it, then likewise melting all away as soon as she died, because, huh, such was the power of Nissa Nissa’s sacrifice?

I mean, you cannot watch that scene and not view it as the cheap, lazy AA/NN rip off that it was.

It doesn’t work for two reasons. First, turning Daenerys into the “unexpected” Great Other (when everyone expected that it would be the Night King) of the prophecy makes said prophecy extremely vague about what, or who, it was ever supposed to refer to. If the “Long Night” turned out to be a long period of political chaos, wars and despotism, it could’ve referred to pretty much anything, to the seven kingdoms before AC, to any of the dornish wars, to Maegor’s rule, to the poor fellow’s rebellions, to the Dance of Dragons, to the Blackfyre’s rebellion, to the Mad King’s rule, to the War of the Five Kings, to whatever came after, etc, etc. If the “Great Other” was a (human) monarch and tyrant, there were plenty of contenders, besides Daenerys, some of whom also had dragons (and weren’t shy to use them), two of whom effectively plunged Westeros into a bloody chaos (that lasted much, much longer that Dany’s reign, mind you), died under extremely suspicious, treacherous or borderline magical circumstances, and whose death brought (relative) peace again to the kingdoms. If an in-universe character looked at the prophecy and past events, he could just as well conclude that the Great Other was Maegor the Cruel or Aegon II, and that the prophesied Long Night happened way before the events of ASOIAF. It would be more of a horoscope than a prophecy, being so purposely vague that it can’t be wrong and can mean pretty much anything. Not that there can’t be such pseudo-prophecies in the ASOIAF world, but I’m quite certain that the AA/PTWP one isn’t one of those. It simply feels too big, too central to the story. The final magical threat was turned into a final political threat because D&D ran out of time, or more likely never bothered, to properly address book elements such as the Ghost of Highheart, the blood sacrifices offered to the Weirwood trees, the curtain of light, the magic of the Wall and beneath it, the first Long Night, the prophecy Rhaegar read as a child, etc; and if you strip away the magic, and if you’re dead set on a literal AA/NN replay, well… can’t have Jon stab Dany for “magical” reasons that just came out of absolutely nowhere. So the grand solution D&D came up with was “eh, we’ll just make sure that Nissa Nissa deserves it!”

Which is the other reason why it doesn’t work. For one, it completely undercuts the moral dilemma underneath. Was it morally justifiable for Azor Ahai to sacrifice someone else in order to save humanity? Well, it is now because his wife was a monster. He’s not a morally problematic person at all, he’s a saint and a martyr with a broken heart. Talk about missing the point. This is just gross. No way this is GRR Martin’s intended endgame.

I'll never get why ppl don't understand that Rhaegar's whole 3 children thing was bc he was married to Elia. In an AU where he didn't marry Elia he would still believe he was the PTWP + the comet wouldn't occur when he already had an elder daughter (similar to the trio's birth order). Like who knows if he might even have kids at that pt. Ppl rlly hate Elia that much that they want Rhaegar's 3 kids from some other woman who's white. It's tragic rlly.

Seriously. It’s so, so gross. Who’s to say he wouldn’t have become like Aerys I and just not had kids?

And the exaggeration of Elia’s frailty is also gross - she went through two difficult pregnancies and lived. Her children lived and were perfectly healthy. She didn’t die because she was sickly, she died because she was murdered! But these people are like, oh, she’s got to die giving birth to Aegon, who must be stillborn, or she’s got to miscarry once and thus be set aside as if it’s that easy and a single miscarriage is cause for alarm. But no, Rhaegar’s gotta have a white wife who can give him all the kids he wants, huh? Never mind that the only reason he wanted those in the first place was because of the circumstances surrounding his and Elia’s kids? These people literally sound like Cersei Lannister. And I think Cersei is a compelling character and all, but she is not a person you want to sound like!

With all the new speculations about how little sense the show makes, I would be optimistic about Dany's fate, but the one thing that prevents me from doing so is how trash Dumb&Dumber are. Everyone is making great, logically sound points but those two literally do not care about logic as long as there's shock value. Sigh.

Yes, that’s exactly the reason I’m so pessimistic right now. When I think about this logically, none of it makes any sense. 8 seasons of foreshadowing and intentional parallels. Foreshadowing for marriage. Foreshadowing for baby. Love theme that sounds nothing tragic, but triumphant, and all the analyses point out that this love theme is very positive. And this is not even taking the books into consideration. If you think about the books, this turn in Dany’s characterization makes no sense at all. And it makes no sense to just reduce such a powerful female character to nothing but a madness/hysterical woman stereotype.

But after episode 4… I don’t trust in logic anymore. So many things were out of character and came out of nowhere. Dany saying that she didn’t want soldiers to rest is the opposite of book Daenerys that insisted that she would not march her people off to die. But even if you ignore the books, certain things are so absurd. So now, show!Dany is talking about how the sky is gonna fall upon the people of King’s Landing? So she’s talking about purposefully targetting innocents? Who is this character? And now she’s talking about “her destiny to rid the world of tyrants”. Where does this even come from? Dany never ever talked about destiny before! Sure, when Melisandre talked about the PTWP prophecy, Dany was intrigued that the prophecy could refer to a woman, but that was it! And just before that Dany had even told Melisandre “I’m not a prince”, saying that the prophecy couldn’t be about her. So why does Dany believe in “destiny” now? Where is the logic????????

The leaks make no sense. Supposedly, Dany goes mad and purposefully burns innocents because bells trigger her (?!), and she makes a speech about ridding the world from slaves (??!!), and then Jon kills her because Tyrion told him that she’s a threat to his family (???!!!) and because her sense of justice is warped, even though Dany at the moment is no immediate threat threat and is not riding her dragons (meaning that he could very well restrain her instead of killing her). And Jaime and Cersei die together because they love each other so much (?!), Bran becomes king (?!), Tyrion is still on trial even though there’s no reason for that (?!), Sam suggests some sort of democracy (?!)

NONE OF IT MAKES ANY SENSE!! But after what we’ve seen… yeah, I just don’t trust in logic. It seems we’re going to get the worst ending we could have ever imagined, and almost no fan will be happy. Dany fans, Jon fans, Jaime fans, Brienne fans, Arya fans, Gendrya, Jonerys and Braime shippers… no one will be happy. The only fans that might be somewhat happy with this ending are some Sansa fans, but not even all of them. Show!Sansa stans/Dany haters will be happy, but book!Sansa fans will not be happy at all. And they said this ending was “satisfying” and “bittersweet”? Yeah, logic doesn’t apply anymore.