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killianmesmalls · 3 years

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On your comments about Jack: ye-es, in the sense that Jack is a character who definitely deserved better than he was treated by the characters. The way Dean especially treats him reflects very badly on Dean, no question. But, speaking as a viewer, I think the perspective needs to shift a little bit.

To me, Jack is Dawn from Buffy, or Scrappy Doo. He’s an (in my opinion) irritating kid who is introduced out of nowhere to be both super vulnerable and super OP, and the jeopardy is centered around him in a way that has nothing to do with his actual character or relationships. He’s mostly around to be cute and to solve or create problems — he never has any firm character arcs or goals of his own, nor any deeper purpose in the meta narrative. In this way, he’s a miss for SPN, which focuses heavily on conflicts as metaphors for real life.

Mary fits so much better in that framework, and introducing her as a developed, flawed person works really well with the narrative. It is easy for us to care about Mary, both as the dead perfect mother on the pedestal and as the flawed, human woman who could not live up to her sons’ expectations. That connection is built into the core of SPN, and was developed over years, even before she was a character. When she was added, she was given depth and nuance organically, and treated as a flawed, complex character rather than as a plot device or a contrivance. She was given a voice and independence, and became a powerful metaphor for developing new understandings of our parents in adulthood, as well as an interesting and well-rounded character. You care that she’s dead, not just because Sam and Dean are sad, but for the loss of her development and the potential she offered. So, in that sense, I think a lot of people were frustrated that she died essentially fridged for a second time, and especially in service of the arc of a weaker character.

And like, you’re right, no one can figure out if Jack is a toddler or a teenager. He’s both and he’s neither, because he’s never anything consistently and his character arc is always “whatever the plot needs it to be.” Every episode is different. Is he Dean’s sunny opportunity to be a parent and make up for his dad’s shitty parenting? Yes! Is he also Dean’s worst failure and a reminder that he has done many horrible things, including to “innocent” children? Yes! Is he Cas’s child? Yes! Is he Dean’s child? Yes! But also, no! Is he Sam’s child? Yes! Is he a lonely teenager who does terrible things? Yes! Is he a totally innocent little lamb who doesn’t get why what he is doing is wrong? Yes! Is he the most powerful being in the universe? Yes! Does he need everyone to take care of him? Yes! Is he just along for the ride? Yes! Is he responsible for his actions? Kinda??? Sometimes??? What is he???

Mary as a character is narratively cohesive and fleshed-out. Jack is a mishmash of confusing whatever’s that all add up to a frustrating plot device with no consistent traits to latch on to. Everything that fans like about him (cute outfits, gender play, well-developed parental bonds with the characters) is fanon. So, yes, the narrative prioritizes Mary. Many fans prioritize Mary, at least enough that Dean’s most heinous acts barely register. To the narrative (not to Cas, which is a totally different situation), Jack is only barely more of a character than Emma Winchester, who Sam killed without uproar seasons earlier. He’s been around longer, but he’s equally not really real.

I debated on responding to this because, to tell the truth, I think we fundamentally disagree on a number of subjects and, as they say, true insanity is arguing with anyone on the internet. However, you spent a lot of time on the above and I feel it's only fair to say my thoughts, even if I don't believe it will sway you any more than what you said changed my opinions.

I'm assuming this was in response to this post regarding how Jack's accidental killing of Mary was treated so severely by the brothers, particularly Dean, because it was Mary and, had it been a random character like the security guard in 13x06, it would have been treated far differently. However, then the argument becomes less about the reaction of the Winchester brothers to this incident and more the value of Jack or Mary to the audience.

I believe we need to first admit that both characters are inherently archetypes—Mary as the Madonna character initially then, later, as a metaphor for how imperfect and truly human our parents are compared to the idol we have as children, and Jack as the overpowered child who is a Jesus allegory by the end. Both have a function within the story to serve the Winchester brothers, through whose lens and with whose biases we are meant to view the show's events. We also need to admit that the writers didn't think more than a season ahead for either character, especially since it wasn't initially supposed to be Mary that came back at the end of season 11 but John, and they only wrote enough for Jack in season 13 to gauge whether or not the audience would want him to continue on or if he needed to be killed off by the end of the season. Now, I know we curate our own experiences online which leads to us being in our own fandom echo chambers, however it is important to note that the character was immediately successful enough with the general audience that, after his first episode or two, he was basically guaranteed a longer future on the show.

I have to admit, I’m not entirely sure why the perspective of how his character is processed by some audience members versus others has any bearing on the argument that he deserved to be treated better overall by the other characters especially when taking their own previous actions in mind. I’m not going to tell you that your opinion is wrong regarding your feelings for Jack. It’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it, it harms no one to have it and express it. My feelings on Jack are clearly very different from your own, but this is really just two different people who processed a fictional person in different ways. I personally believe he has a purpose in the Winchesters’ story, including Castiel’s, as he reflects certain aspects of all of them, gives them a way to explore their own histories through a different perspective, and changes the overall dynamic of Team Free Will from “soldiers in arms” to a family (Misha’s words). In the beginning he allows Sam to work through his past as the “freak” and powerful, dangerous boy wonder destined to bring hell on earth. With Dean, his presence lets Dean work through his issues with John and asks whether he will let history repeat itself or if he’ll work to break the cycle. Regarding Cas, in my opinion he helps the angel reach his “final form” of a father, member of a family, lover and protector of humanity, rebellious son, and the true show of free will.

From strictly the story, he has several arcs that work within themes explored in Supernatural, such as the argument of nature versus nurture, the question of what we’re willing to give up in order to protect something or someone else and how ends justify the means, and the struggle between feeling helpless and powerless versus the corruptive nature of having too much power and the dangerous lack of a moral compass. His goals are mentioned and on display throughout his stint on the show, ones that are truly relatable to some viewers: the strong desire to belong—the need for family and what you’ll do to find and keep it.

With Mary, we first need to establish whether the two versions of her were a writing flaw due to the constant change in who was dictating her story and her relationship to the boys, which goes against the idea that her characterization was cohesive and fleshed-out but, rather, put together when needed for convenience, or if they both exist because, as stated above, we are seeing the show primarily through the biased lens of the Winchester brothers and come to face facts about the true Mary as they do. Like I said in my previous post, I don’t dislike Mary and I don’t blame her for her death (either one). However, I do have a hard time seeing her as a more nuanced, fleshed-out character than Jack. True, a lot of her problems are more adult in nature considering she has to struggle with losing her sons’ formative years and meeting them as whole adults she knows almost nothing about, all because of a choice she made before they were born.

However, her personal struggles being more “mature” in nature (as they center primarily on parental battles) doesn’t necessarily mean her story has layers and Jack’s does not. They are entirely different but sometimes interconnected in a way that adds to both of their arcs, like Mary taking Jack on as an adoptive son which gives her the moments of parenting she lost with Sam and Dean, and Jack having Mary as a parental figure who understands and supports him gives him that sense of belonging he had just been struggling with to the point of running away while he is also given the chance to show “even monsters can do good”.

I’d also argue that Jack being many ages at once isn’t poor writing so much as a metaphor for how, even if you’re forced to grow up fast, that doesn’t mean you’re a fully equipped adult. I don’t want to speak for anyone else, but I believe Jack simultaneously taking a lot of responsibility and constantly trying to prove to others he’s useful while having childish moments is relatable to some who were forced to play an adult role at a young age. He proves a number of times that he doesn’t need everyone to take care of him, but he also has limited life experience and, as such, will make some mistakes while he’s also being a valuable member of the group. Jack constantly exists on a fine line in multiple respects. Some may see that as a writing flaw but it is who the character was conceived to be: the balance between nature or nurture, between good and evil, between savior and devil.

Now, I was also frustrated Mary was “fridged” for a second time. It really provided no other purpose than to give the brothers more man pain to further the plot along. However, this can exist while also acknowledging that the way it happened and the subsequent fallout for Jack was also unnecessary and a sign of blatant hypocrisy from Dean, primarily, and Sam.

And, yes, Jack can be different things at once because, I mean, can’t we all? If Mary can be both the perfect mother and the flawed, independent, distant parent, can’t Jack be the sweet kid who helps his father-figures process their own feelings on fatherhood while also being a lost young-adult forcing them to face their failures? Both characters contain multitudes because, I mean, we all do.

I can provide articles or posts on Jack’s characterization and popularity along with Mary’s if needed, but for now I think this is a long enough ramble on my thoughts and feelings. I’m happy to discuss more, my messenger is always open for (polite) discussion. Until then, I’m going to leave it at we maybe agree to disagree.

#long post #long ask #so long answer #guys it's 1 am #i hope this made sense #watch me read this after sleep and register things i wish i said #oh well #jack kline #mary winchester #spn #supernatural #spn critical #supernatural critical #kinda?#eh just in case #spn meta #supernatural meta #jack meta

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marlborodean · 3 years

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spn quotes: season two

i’m collecting a bunch of quotes from the show! my favorite lines, good points of characterization, etc. all organized by episode and character, and with timestamps!

w/ncest shippers get lost

season one.

1. IN MY TIME OF DYING

Dean—

I’ve done everything you have ever asked me. Everything. I’ve given everything I’ve ever had. Now you’re just gonna sit there and you’re gonna watch me die? I mean, what the hell kind of father are you? (11:14)

So you’re okay with dying? [Tessa: No, of course not. I just think, whatever’s gonna happen is gonna happen. It’s out of my control. It’s just...fate.] Hm. That’s crap. You always have a choice. You can either roll over and die, or you can keep fighting no matter what. (18:48)

There’s no such thing as an honorable death. My corpse is gonna rot in the ground, and my family is gonna die. (30:38)

[John: You know, when, uh...when you were a kid, I’d come home from a hunt, and after what I’d seen, I’d be...I’d be wrecked. And you...you’d come up to me, and you’d put your hand on my shoulder, and you’d look me in the eye, and you’d...you’d say, “It’s okay, Dad.” Dean, I’m sorry.] Why? [You shouldn’t have had to say that to me, I should’ve been saying that to you. You know, I put...I put too much on your shoulders. I made you grow up too fast. You took care of Sammy, you took care of me. You did that. And you didn’t complain, not once.] (37:27)

Sam—

How is revenge gonna help him? You're not thinking about anybody but yourself. It's the same selfish obsession! (13:17)

I don't know how to help you. But I'll keep trying, alright? As long as you keep fighting. I mean, come on, you can't...you can't leave me here alone with Dad, we'll kill each other, you know that. Dean, you gotta hold on. You can't go, man, not now. We were just starting to be brothers again. (28:36)

Misc—

Tessa: You'll stay here for years—disembodied, scared. And over the decades, it'll probably drive you mad. Maybe you'll even get violent. [Dean: What are you saying?] Dean, how do you think angry spirits are born? They can't let go, and they can't move on. And you're about to become one: the same thing you hunt. (31:15)

Azazel: If only your boys knew how much their daddy loved them. (32:15)

2. EVERYBODY LOVES A CLOWN

Dean—

[Ellen: I’m so sorry.] It’s okay. We’re alright. [Really. I know how close you and your dad—] Really, lady, I’m fine. (11:37)

[Sam: You ever notice Dad had a falling-out with just about everybody? Don’t get all maudlin on me, man.] What do you mean? [I mean this strong, silent thing of yours. It’s crap, I’m over it.] Oh my God. [This isn’t just anyone we’re talking about, this is Dad. I know how you felt about the man.] You know what? Back off, alright? Just because I’m not caring and sharing like you want me to— [No no no, that’s not what this is about, Dean. I don’t care how you deal with this, but you have to deal with it, man! Listen, I’m your brother, alright? I just wanna make sure you’re okay.] Dude, I’m okay! I’m okay, okay? I swear, the next person who asks me if I’m okay, I’m gonna start throwing punches. These are your issues. Quit dumping them on me. [What are you talking about?] I just think it’s really interesting, this sudden obedience you have to Dad. It’s like, “Oh, what would Dad want me to do?” Sam, you spent your entire life slugging it out with that man. I mean, hell, you—you picked a fight with him the last time you ever saw him, and now that he’s dead, now you want to make it right? Well, I’m sorry, Sam, but you can’t. It’s too little, too late. [Why are you saying this to me?] Because I want you to be honest with yourself about this! I’m dealing with Dad’s death! Are you? (29:48)

Sam—

[Dean: This case was your idea. By the way, why is that? You were awfully quick to jump on this job.] So? [It's just not like you, that's all. I thought you were hell-bent for leather on the demon hunt.] I don't know, I just think taking this job, it's what Dad would have wanted us to do. (16:57)

[Mr. Cooper: You see, this place is a refuge for outcasts, always has been, for folks that don't fit in nowhere else. But you two...you should go to school, find a couple of girls, have 2.5 kids. Live regular.] Sir, we don't want to go school, and we don't want regular. We want this. (22:34)

[Dean: I thought that once the demon was dead and the fat lady sings that you were gonna take off, head back to wussy state.] I'm having second thoughts. [Really?] Yeah. I think Dad would have wanted me to stick with the job. [Since when do you give a damn what Dad wanted? You spent half your life doing what he didn't want, Sam.] Since he died, okay? You have a problem with that? (23:27)

I'm sorry that the last time I was with him, I tried to pick a fight. I'm sorry that I spent most of my life angry at him. I mean, for all I know, he died thinking that I hate him. So you're right. What I'm doing right now, it is too little. It's too late. I miss him, man. And I feel guilty as hell. And I'm not all right, not at all. But neither are you. That much I know. (39:04)

3. BLOODLUST

Dean—

So I picked up this crossbow, and I hit that ugly sucker—silver-tipped arrow, right in his heart. Sammy’s waiting in the car, and me and my dad take the thing into the woods, burn it to a crisp. I’m sitting there, and I’m looking into the fire, I’m thinking to myself, “I’m 16 years old. Kids my age are worried about pimples, prom dates. I’m seeing things that they’ll never even know, never even dream of.” So right then, I just sort of.... [Gordon: Embraced the life?] Yeah. (16:16)

You’re always saying to yourself, “He’s indestructible. He’ll always be around. Nothing can kill my dad.” And just like that, he’s gone. I can’t talk about this to Sammy. No, I got to keep my game face on. But, uh...truth is, I’m not handling it very well. I feel like I have this— [Gordon: Hole inside you? And it just gets bigger and bigger and darker and darker? Good. You can use it. Keeps you hungry. Trust me, there’s plenty out there needs killing, and this will help you do it. Dean, it’s not a crime to need your job.] (18:32)

[Gordon: It’s all black-and-white. There’s no maybe. You find the bad thing, kill it. See, most people spend their lives in shades of gray. Is this right? Is that wrong? Not us.] Not sure Sammy would agree with you, but, uh. [Doesn’t seem like your brother’s much like us. I’m not saying he’s wrong, just different. You and me, we were born to do this. It’s in our blood.] (20:22)

[Sam: You know what? You slap on this big smile, but I can see right through it, ‘cause I know how you feel, Dean. Dad’s dead. And he left a hole, and it hurts so bad you can’t take it. But you can’t just fill up that hole with whoever you want to.] (27:47)

[Gordon: You’re not like your brother. You’re a killer, like me.] (37:08)

I wish we never took this job. It just jacked everything up. [Sam: What do you mean?] Think about all the hunts we went on, Sammy, our whole lives. [Okay.] What if we killed things that didn’t deserve killing. You know? I mean, the way Dad raised us. [Dean, after what happened to Mom...Dad did the best he could.] I know he did. But maybe he wasn’t perfect. And the way he raised us, to hate those things—and man, I hate them. I do. When I killed that vampire at the mill, I didn’t even think about it. Hell, I even enjoyed it. [You didn’t kill Lenore.] No, but every instinct told me to. I was gonna kill her. I was gonna kill them all. (40:20)

Sam—

[Gordon: Well, lighten up a little, Sammy!] He's the only one that gets to call me that. (15:05)

4. CHILDREN SHOULDN’T PLAY WITH DEAD THINGS

Dean—

Going to visit Mom’s grave? She doesn’t even have a grave. There was no body left after the fire. [Sam: She has a headstone.] Yeah, put up by our uncle, a man that we’ve never even met. So you wanna go pay resects to a slab of granite put up by a stranger? Come on. [Dean, that’s not the point.] Well, them enlighten me, Sam. [It’s not about a body or a casket. It’s about her memory, okay? And after Dad, it just—it just feels like the right thing to do.] It’s irrational, is what it is. [Look, man, no one asked you to come.] Why don’t we swing by the roadhouse instead? I mean, we haven’t heard anything on the demon lately. We should be hunting that son-of-a-bitch down. [That’s a good idea! You should! Just drop me off, I’ll hitch a ride, and I’ll meet you there tomorrow.] Right. Stuck with those people, making awkward small talk until you show up. No thanks. (02:48)

[Sam: Look, maybe you’re imagining a hunt where there isn’t one, so you don’t have to think about Mom, or Dad. You wanna take another swing? Go ahead, if it’ll make you feel better.] I don’t need this crap. [Dean, where are you going?] I’m gonna go get a drink. Alone. (09:59)

Look, I get it. Okay? There are people that I would give anything to see again, but what gives you the right? [Sam: Dean.] [Dr. Mason: What are you talking about?] What’s dead should stay dead! (20:51)

[Sam: Dean, I don’t scare easy, but, man, you’re scaring the crap out of me.] Don’t be overdramatic, Sam. [You’re lucky this turned out to be a real case, ‘cause if it wasn’t, you would’ve just found something else to kill. You’re on edge, you’re erratic, except for when you’re hunting, ‘cause then you’re downright scary. You’re tailspinning, man! And you refuse to talk about it, and you won’t let me help you.] I can take care of myself, thanks. [No, you can’t! And you know what? You’re the only one who thinks you should have to. You don’t have to handle this on your own, Dean. No one can.] (21:44)

I’m sorry. [Sam: For what?] The way I’ve been acting. And for Dad. Well, he was your dad, too. It’s my fault that he’s gone. [What are you talking about?] I know you’ve been thinking it. So have I. Doesn’t take a genius to figure it out. Back at the hospital, I had a full recovery. It was a miracle. And five minutes later, Dad’s dead and the Colt’s gone. [Dean....] You can’t tell me there’s not a connection there. I don’t know how the demon was involved, I don’t know how the whole thing went down exactly, but Dad’s dead because of me, and that much I do know. [We don’t know that, not for sure.] Sam, you and Dad, you’re the most important people in my life. And now...I never should’ve come back, Sam, it wasn’t natural, and now look what’s come of it. I was dead, and I should’ve stayed dead. You wanted to know how I was feeling. So tell me, what could you possibly say to make that alright? (38:56)

Sam—

[Dean: Going to visit Mom's grave? She doesn't even have a grave. There was no body left after the fire.] She has a headstone. [Yeah, put up by our uncle, a man that we've never even met. So you wanna go pay your respects to a slab of granite put up by a stranger? Come on.] Dean, that's not the point. [Well, then, enlighten me, Sam.] It's not about a body or a casket. It's about her memory, okay? And after Dad, it just—it just feels like the right thing to do. (02:48)

You're tailspinning, man. And you refuse to talk about it, and you won't let me help you. [Dean: I can take care of myself, thanks.] No, you can't! And you know what? You're the only one who thinks you should have to. You don't have to handle this on your own, Dean. No one can. [Sam, if you bring up Dad's death one more time, I swear—] Please, Dean, it's killing you. Please. We've already lost Dad. We lost Mom. I've lost Jessica. And now I'm gonna lose you, too? (21:44)

5. SIMON SAID

Dean—

You know, one day I’d love to just sit down and eat something that I didn’t have to microwave at a minimart. (18:03)

[Sam: You know, I heard you before, Dean, when Andy made you tell the truth. You’re just as scared of this as I am.] That was mind control! It’s like—it’s like being roofied, man. That doesn’t count. [What?] No, I—I’m calling do-over. [What are you, 7?] Doesn’t matter. Look, we just gotta keep doing what we’re doing, find that evil son of a bitch and kill it. (36:06)

Sam—

[Dean: There's gonna be hunters there. I don't know if—if going in and announcing that you're some supernatural freak with a demonic connection is the best thing, okay?] So I'm a freak now? [You've always been a freak.] (04:14)

Demon came to them when they were kids. Now they're killing people. [Dean: We don't know what Andrew Gallagher is, okay? Could be innocent.] My visions haven't been wrong yet! [What's your point?] My point is, I'm one of them. [No, you're not.] Dean, the demon said he had plans for me and children like me. [Yeah?] Yeah, maybe this is his plan. Maybe we're all a bunch of psychic freaks. Maybe we're all supposed to be— [Killers?] Yeah. [So the demon wants you out there, killing with your minds, is that it? Oh, give me a break. You're not a murderer, Sam! You don't have it in your bones!] No? Last I checked, I kill all kinds of things. [Those things were asking for it. There's a difference.] (10:47)

Looks like I was right. [Dean: About what?] Andy. He's a killer after all. [No, he's a hero. He saved his girlfriend's life. He saved my life.] Bottom line, last night he wasted somebody. [Yeah, but he's not a foaming-at-the-mouth psycho. He was just—he was pushed into that.] Webber was pushed, too, in his own way. Max Miller was pushed. Hell, I was pushed by Jessica's death. [What's your point, Sam?] Right circumstances, everyone is capable of murder. Everyone. (35:28)

6. NO EXIT

Dean—

[Jo: You know, I’ve had it up to here with your crap.] Excuse me? [Your chauvinist crap. You think women can’t do the job.] Sweetheart, this ain’t gender studies. Women can do the job fine. Amateurs can’t. You got no experience! What you do have is a bunch of half-baked romantic notions that some barfly has put in your head. [And now you sound like my mother.] Oh, and that’s a bad thing? (09:56)

Jo, you got options. No on in their right mind chooses this life. My dad started me in this when I was so young. I wish I could do something else. [Jo: You love the job.] Yeah, but I’m a little twisted. [You don’t think I’m a little twisted, too?] Jo, you got a mother that worries about you, who wants something more for you. Those are good things. You don’t throw things like that away. They might be hard to find later. (10:24)

[Jo: What do you remember about your dad? I mean, what’s the first thing that pops into your head? Come on, tell me.] I was 6 or 7, and uh...he took me shooting for the first time. Bottles on a fence—that kind of things. I bull’s-eyed every one of them. And he would smile, like...I don’t know. [He must have been proud.] (16:13)

Sam—

Is this job as glamorous as you thought it would be? [Jo: Well, except for all the pee-your-pants terror, yeah. But that Theresa girl’s gonna live a life ‘cause of us. It’s worth it, isn’t it?] Yeah. Yeah, it is. (36:00)

Misc—

Ellen: I am your mother! I don't have to be reasonable! (03:06)

7. THE USUAL SUSPECTS

Dean—

My name is Dean Winchester. I’m an Aquarius. I enjoy sunsets, long walks on the beach, and frisky women. (21:59)

[Sam: Nice lady.] Yeah, for a cop. (41:19)

Sam—

[Diana: Then about a year ago, there was a fire in your apartment. One fatality—Jessica Moore, your girlfriend. After she died, you fell off the grid—left behind everything.] I needed some time off...to deal. So I’m taking a road trip with my brother. (03:49)

[Dean: What do you think, Scully?] I’m not Scully, you’re Scully. [No, I’m Mulder. You’re a red-headed woman.] (06:35)

8. CROSSROAD BLUES

Dean—

[Sam: We got to find out if anyone else struck any bargains around here.] Great. So we got to clean up these people’s mess for them? I mean, they’re not exactly squeaky clean. Nobody put a gun to their head and forced them to play “Let’s Make a Deal.” [So what, we should just leave them to die?] Somebody goes over Niagara in a barrel, you gonna jump in to try to save them? [Dean.] Alright. Fine. (14:44)

[Demon: You’d sacrifice your life for someone else’s. Like father, like son. (29:01)

[Demon: I’m not gonna put you out of your misery.] Yeah? Why not? [’Cause your misery is the whole point. It’s too much to watch. Knowing how your daddy died for you, how he sold his soul—I mean, that’s got to hurt. He’s all you ever think about. You wake up and your first thought is, “I can’t do this anymore.” You’re all lit up with pain. I mean, you loved him so much. And it’s all your fault. You blew it, Dean! I could’ve given you what you need.] What do I need? [Your father.] (30:36)

How could he do it? [Sam: He did it for you.] Exactly. How am I supposed to live with that? (38:14)

Sam—

How many people do you think Dad saved total? [Dean: That's not the point, Sam.] Evan Hudson is safe because of what Dad taught us. That's his legacy, Dean. Now we're still here, man, so we got to keep going. For him. (38:48)

Misc—

George: Listen, I get that you boys want to help, but sometimes a person makes their bed and they just got to lie down in it. (17:38)

9. CROATOAN

Dean—

Hey, look, man, I’m not happy about this, okay? But it's a tough job, and you know that. [Sam: It's supposed to be tough, Dean. We're supposed to struggle with this. That's the whole point.] What does that buy us? [A clear conscience, for one.] Well, it's too late for that. [What the hell has happened to you?] What? [You might kill an innocent man, and you don't even care. You don't act like yourself anymore, Dean. Hell, you know what, you're acting like one of those things out there.] (25:40)

[Sam: Go with them. This is your only chance.] Ah, you're not gonna get rid of me that easy. (31:17)

[Sam: Dean, I'm sick. It's over for me. It doesn't have to be for you.] No—[No, you can keep going.] Who says I want to? [What?] I'm tired, Sam. I'm tired of this job, this life, this weight on my shoulders, man, I'm tired of it. [So what, so you're just gonna give up? I mean, you're just gonna lay down and die? Look, Dean, I know this stuff with Dad had—] You're wrong. It's not about Dad. I mean, part of it is, sure— [Then what is it about?] (32:54)

I just think we should take a break from all this. Why do we got to get stuck with all the responsibility, you know? Why can't we live life a little bit? [Why are you saying all this? No no no no no, Dean. You're my brother, alright? So whatever weight you're carrying, let me help a little bit.] I can't. I promised. [Who?] Dad. (39:23)

Sam—

[Dean: Hey, look, man, I'm not happy about this, okay? But it's a tough job, and you know that.] It's supposed to be tough, Dean. We're supposed to struggle with this. That's the whole point. [What does that buy us?] A clear conscience, for one. (25:40)

You're my brother, alright? So whatever weight you're carrying, let me help a little bit. (39:38)

10. HUNTED

Dean—

He said that he...wanted me to watch out for you. Take care of you. [Sam: He told you that a million times.] Well, this time was different. He said that I had to...save you. [Save me from what?] He just said that I had to save you, and nothing else mattered and that if I couldn't, I'd.... [You'd what, Dean?] I'd have to kill you. He said that I might have to kill you, Sammy. (04:10)

[Sam: How could you not have told me this?] Because it was Dad and he begged me not to. [Who cares? Take some responsibility for yourself Dean! You had no right to keep this from me!] You think I wanted this? Huh? I wish to God he'd never opened his mouth. Then I wouldn't have to walk around with this screaming in my head all day! (05:05)

And you're pissed at me, and I get it. That's fine, I deserve it. But we lay low until we figure out our next move, okay? [Sam: Forget it.] Sam, please, man. Hey, please. Just give me some time. Give me some time to think, okay? I'm begging you here. Please, please. (06:12)

Come on, Ellen, please. Something bad could be going on here, and I swore I'd look after that kid. [Ellen: They say you can't protect your loved ones forever. Well, I say screw that. What else is family for?] (17:27)

Come on, man. I know Sam, okay? Better than anyone. He's got more of a conscience than I do. I mean, the guy feels guilty surfing the internet for porn. [Gordon: Maybe you're right, but one day, he's gonna be a monster.] How? Huh? How's a guy like Sam become a monster? [Beats me, but he will.] No, you don't know that! [I'm surprised at you, Dean. Getting all emotional. I'd heard you were more of a professional than this.] (29:15)

[Gordon: Look, I'm sympathetic. He's your brother, you love the guy. This has got to hurt like hell for you. But here's the thing. It would've wrecked him, but your dad, if it really came right down to it, he would have had the stones to do the right thing here. So you're telling me, you're not the man he is?] (30:24)

Screw the job. Screw it, man. I'm sick of the job anyway. I mean, we don't get paid, we don't get thanked. The only thing we get's bad luck. [Well, come on, dude, you're a hunter. I mean, it's what you're meant to do.] Oh, I wasn't meant to do anything. I don't believe in that destiny crap. (39:00)

[Sam: You can't run from this, and you can't protect me.] I can try. (39:27)

Sam—

[Dean: He said that I might have to kill you, Sammy.] Kill me? What the hell is that supposed to mean? [I don't know.] I mean, he must've had some kind of reason for saying it, right? I mean, did he know the demon's plans for me? Am I supposed to go dark side or something? What else did he say, Dean? [That's it, I swear.] How could you not have told me this? [Because it was Dad and he begged me not to.] Who cares? Take some responsibility for yourself Dean! You had no right to keep this from me! (04:46)

[Ellen: I wish I could blame the hell out of you boys. It'd be easier. Truth is, it's not your fault. Sam, none of it is.] (10:27)

[Gordon: You wouldn't shoot me, would you, Sammy? 'Cause your brother, he thinks you're some kind of saint.] Yeah, well, I wouldn't be so sure. (33:46)

[Gordon: You're no better than the filthy things you hunt.] *They tussle, Sam points a gun at him.* [Do it. Do it! Show your brother the killer you really are, Sammy.] It's Sam. (34:22)

I'm not gonna just ditch the job. (39:00)

[Dean: Oh, I wasn't meant to do anything. I don't believe in that destiny crap.] You mean you don't believe in my destiny. [Whatever.] Look, Dean, I've tried running before. I mean, I ran all the way to California and look what happened. You can't run from this, and you can't protect me. [I can try.] Thanks for that. Look, Dean, I'm gonna keep hunting. I mean, whatever's coming, I'm taking it head on, so if you really want to watch my back, then I guess you're gonna have to stick around. (39:13)

11. PLAYTHINGS

Dean—

[Sam: We gotta save as many people as we can.] Wow. That attitude is just way too healthy for me. I'm officially uncomfortable now, thank you. (05:16)

[Sam: I need you to watch out for me.] Yeah, I always do. [No no no no, you have to watch out for me, all right? And if I ever turn into something that I'm not...you have to kill me.] Sam.... [Dean, Dad told you to do it. You have to.] Yeah, well, Dad's an ass. He never should've said anything. I mean, you don't do that, you don't—you don't lay that kind of crap on your kids. [No, he was right to say it. Who knows what I might become? Even now, everyone around me dies.] Yeah, well, I'm not dying. Okay? And neither are you. Come on, sit down. [No. Please. Dean, you're the only one who can do it. Promise.] Don't ask that of me. (16:18)

[Sherwin: Well, would you be [happy], leaving the only home you ever knew?] I don't know. I never really knew one. (19:06)

Sam—

I told Ellen we'd think about checking it out. [Dean: You did?] Yeah. You seem surprised. [Yeah, it's just, you know. Not the patented Sam Winchester way, is it?] What way is that? [Just figured after Ava, there'd be, uh, you know, more angst and droopy music and staring out the rainy windows. I'll shut up now.] (04:27)

So I'm not giving up on her, but I'm not gonna let other people die, either. We gotta save as many people as we can. (05:09)

That guy who hung himself...I couldn't save him. [Dean: What are you talking about? You didn't know. You couldn't have done anything.] That's an excuse, Dean. I should have found a way to save him. I should have saved Ava, too. [Yeah, well, you can't save everyone. Even you said that.] No, Dean, you don't understand, alright? The more people I save, the more I can change. [Change what?] My destiny, Dean. (15:46)

I need you to watch out for me. [Dean: Yeah, I always do.] No no no no, you have to watch out for me, alright? And if I ever turn into something that I'm not...you have to kill me. [Dean: Sam....] Dean, Dad told you to do it. You have to. [Yeah, well, Dad's an ass. He never should've said anything. I mean, you don't do that, you don't—you don't lay that kind of crap on your kids.] No, he was right to say it. Who knows what I might become? Even now, everyone around me dies. [Yeah, well, I'm not dying. Okay? And neither are you. Come on, sit down.] No. Please. Dean, you're the only one who can do it. Promise. [Don't ask that of me.] Dean, please. You have to promise me. [I promise.] Thanks. Thank you. (16:18)

12. NIGHTSHIFTER

Dean—

Freaking cops. [Sam: They were just doing their job.] No, they’re doing our job, only they don’t know it, so they suck at it. (03:36)

[Henriksen: I know about your dad.] You don't know crap about my dad. [Ex-Marine, raised his kids on the road, cheap motels, backwood cabins. Real paramilitary survivalist type. I just can't get a handle on what type of wacko he was— white supremist, Timmy McVeigh, tomato, tomahto.] You got no right talking about my dad like that. He was a hero. [Yeah, right. Sure sounds like it.] (31:18)

Sam—

[Dean: When you told that poor son of a bitch to—what did you say?—”remand” the tapes that he copied? “Classified evidence of an ongoing investigation”? That’s messed up.] What, are you pissed at me? [No, I just think it’s a little creepy how good of a Fed you are.] (08:51)

Better to stay in the dark and stay alive. (08:51)

13. HOUSES OF THE HOLY

Dean—

Odd, yes. Supernatural, maybe. But angels? I don't think so. [Sam: Why not?] 'Cause there's no such thing, Sam. [Dean, there's ten times as much lore about angels as there is about anything else we've ever hunted.] Hey, you know what, there's a ton of lore on unicorns, too. In fact, I hear that they ride on silver moonbeams and they shoot rainbows outta their ass. [Wait, there's no such thing as unicorns?] That's cute. I'm just saying, man, there's some legends that you just file under “bullcrap.” [And you got angels on the ”bullcrap” list.] Yep. [Why?] 'Cause I've never seen one. [So what?] So I believe in what I can see. [Dean, you and I have seen things most people couldn't even dream about.] Exactly. With our own eyes—that's hard proof, okay? But in all this time, I have never seen anything that looks like an angel. And don't you think that if they existed that we would've crossed paths with them, or at least know someone that crossed paths with them? (06:17)

You know what? I get it. You've got faith. That's—hey, good for you. I'm sure it makes things easier. I'll tell you who else had faith like that. Mom. She used to tell me when she tucked me in that angels were watching over us. In fact, that was the last thing she ever said to me. [You never told me that.] What's to tell? She was wrong. There was nothing protecting her. There's no higher power. There's no God. I mean, there's just chaos and violence and random, unpredictable evil that comes out of nowhere and rips you to shreds. You want me to believe in this stuff? I'm gonna need to see some hard proof. You got any? (23:09)

Sam—

[Dean: What's next? Are you gonna start praying everyday?] I do. [What?] I do pray every day. I have for a long time. (19:50)

I wanted to believe. So badly. It's so damn hard to do this, what we do, all alone, you know? There's so much evil out in the world, Dean, I feel like I could drown in it. And when I think about my destiny, when I think about how I could end up.... [Dean: Yeah, well, don't worry about that, alright? I'm watching out for you.] Yeah, I know you are. But you're just one person, Dean. And I needed to think that there was something else watching, too, you know? Some higher power, some greater good. And maybe.... [Maybe what?] Maybe I could be saved. But, you know, that just clouded my judgement. And you're right. I mean, we got to go with what we know, with what we can see, with what's right there in front of our own two eyes. (37:54)

14. BORN UNDER A BAD SIGN

Dean—

[Meg!Sam: Then how the hell did I get here, Dean? What happened to me?] I don't know, all right? But you're...you're okay, and that's what matters. Everything else we can deal with. (02:51)

Sam, go wait in the car. [Meg!Sam: But, Dean—] Go wait in the car! (06:40)

What's going on with you, Sam, hm? 'Cause smoking, throwing bottles at people, I mean that sounds more like me than you. (07:51)

You know, I've tried so hard to keep you safe. [Meg!Sam: I know.] I can't. I'd rather die. [No. You'll live.] (15:53)

[Meg!Sam: What the hell's wrong with you, Dean? Are you that scared of being alone that you'd rather let Jo die?] (25:53)

This is my fight. I'm not getting your blood on my hands. That's just how it's gonna be. (31:28)

[Meg!Sam: Dean. Back from the dead. Getting to be a regular thing for you, isn't it? Like a cockroach. (34:13)

[Meg!Sam: All that I had to hold onto was that I would climb out one day and that I was gonna torture you, nice and slow, like pulling the wings off an insect. But whatever I do to you, it's nothing compared to what you do to yourself, is it? I can see it in your eyes, Dean. You're worthless. You couldn't save your dad, and deep down, you know that you can't save your brother. They'd have been better off without you.] (37:21)

[Sam: No matter what I did, you wouldn't shoot.] It was the right move, Sam, it wasn't you. [Yeah, this time. What about next time?] Sam, when Dad told me that I might have to kill you, it was only if I couldn't save you. Now, if it's the last thing I do, I'm gonna save you. (41:01)

Sam—

For the last few weeks, I've been having...I've been having these feelings. [Dean: What feelings?] Rage. Hate. And I can't stop it. It just gets worse. Day by day, it gets worse. [You never told me this.] I didn't want to scare you. (13:52)

[Dean: No one can control you but you.] Sure doesn't seem like that, Dean. It feels like no matter what I do, slowly but surely, I'm—I'm just becoming— [What?] Who I'm meant to be. I mean, you said it once yourself, Dean, I got to face up to who I am. (14:29)

I don't want to hurt anyone else. I don't want to hurt you. [Dean: You won't. Whatever this is, you can fight it.] No. I can't. Not forever. (15:16)

My head feels like it's on fire, alright? (25:21)

Misc:

Meg: Hell is like, uh...well, it's like hell. Even for demons. It's a prison made of bone and flesh and blood and fear. (36:42)

15. TALL TALES

Dean—

[Bobby: Come on, now, you're bickering like an old married couple.] No, see, married couples can get divorced. Me and him? We're like, uh, Siamese twins. [Sam: It's conjoined twins.] See what I mean? [Look, it...we've just been on the road for too long, tight quarters, all that.] (11:19)

[Sam: Dude, you know something? I put up with a lot from you.] What are you talking about? I'm a joy to be around. [Yeah? Your dirty socks in the sink, your food in the fridge?] What's wrong with my food? [It's not food anymore, Dean! It's Darwinism!] I like it. [And you know what? All I ask from you, the one thing, is that you don't mess with my stuff!] You done? [You know, how would you feel if I screwed with the Impala?] It'd be the last thing you ever did. (21:15)

Sam—

Dude, you know something? I put up with a lot from you. [What are you talking about? I'm a joy to be around.] Yeah? Your dirty socks in the sink, your food in the fridge? [What's wrong with my food?] It's not food anymore, Dean! It's Darwinism! [I like it.] And you know what? All I ask from you, the one thing, is that you don't mess with my stuff! (21:15)

16. ROADKILL

Dean—

You know, just once I'd like to round the corner and see a nice house. (16:14)

Me? I don't like [spirits]. And I sure as hell ain't making apologies for 'em. (20:08)

[Molly: Oh, thank God.] Call me Dean. (28:46)

Sam—

Spirits like Greeley are, uh...like wounded animals. Lost, in so much pain, that they lash out. [Molly: Why? Why are they here?] Well, there's some part of them that...that's keeping them here, like their remains, or um...unfinished business. [Unfinished business....] Yeah, uh, could be revenge. Could be love. Or hate. Whatever it is, they just hold on too tight. Can't let go. So they're trapped, caught in the same loops. Replaying the same tragedies over and over. [You sound almost sorry for them.] Well, they weren't evil people, you know? A lot of them were good, just...something happened to them. Something they couldn't control. (18:52)

[Dean: You think she's really going to a better place?] I hope so. [I guess we'll never know. Not until we take the plunge ourselves, huh?] Doesn't really matter, Dean. Hope's kind of the whole point. (38:23)

17. HEART

Dean—

[Sam: Dean, could you be a bigger geek about this?] I'm sorry, man, but what about a human by day, a freak animal killing machine by moonlight don't you understand? I mean, werewolves are badass. We haven't seen one since we were kids. (04:39)

[Sam: You go. I'll stay.] Forget that. You go after the creepy ex. I'm gonna hang here with the hot chick. [Dude, why do you always get to hang out with the girls?] 'Cause I'm older. [No, screw that. We settle this the old-fashioned way.] *Dean throws scissors while Sam throws rock.* [Dean, always with the scissors!] Shut up, shut up. Two out of three. *Dean throws scissors while Sam throws rock.* God! [Bundle up out there, all right?] (11:11]

Sammy, I got this one. I'll do it. [Sam: She asked me to.] You don't have to. (38:56)

Sam—

I'm not putting a bullet through some girl's chest who has no idea what's happening. [Dean: Sam, she's a monster and you're feeling sorry for her?] Maybe I understand her. (21:26)

18. HOLLYWOOD BABYLON

Dean—

[Sam: You know, I thought you hated being a PA.] I don’t know, it’s not so bad. I kind of feel like part of the team, you know? It’s good. (19:22)

Hey, we got to go check out Johnny Ramone’s grave when we’re gone here. [Sam: You want to go dig him up, too?] Bite your tongue, heathen! (23:25)

[Marty: He wrote a wackjob screenplay. There’s no pace, there’s no love interest. It’s all wackadoo exposition. I had to cut, like, 90 percent of it to make it readable, another 10 percent to make it good.] ...Should have kept Walter’s original script. It’s actually pretty good. (31:15)

Sam—

[Dean: I just figured that, you know, after everything that happened with Madison, you could use a little R&R, that’s all.] Maybe I want to work, Dean. Maybe it keeps my mind off things. (05:38)

19. FOLSOM PRISON BLUES

Dean—

Innocent people are dead—four, so far. [Sam: Yeah, innocent.] What, are you from Texas all of a sudden? Just 'cause these people are in jail doesn't mean they deserve to die. And if we don't stop this thing, people are gonna continue to die. We do the job wherever it takes us. (11:30)

[Sam: You're doing this for Deacon?] Damn right. [We barely even know the guy.] We know he was in the Corps with Dad. We know he saved Dad's life. We know we owe him. [Yeah, all right, but don't you think he's asking a little much?] Doesn't matter. We may not be saints, but we're loyal and we pay our debts. Now, that means something to me, and it ought to to you. (11:47)

[Sam: Dean, does it bother you at all how easily you seem to fit in here?] No, not really. (28:07)

Sam—

I hate this plan, Dean. [Dean: yeah, I got that the first ten times I heard it.] (05:12)

This is, without a doubt, the dumbest, craziest thing we’ve ever done, and that’s in a long, storied career of dumb and crazy. (10:58)

20. WHAT IS AND WHAT SHOULD NEVER BE

Dean—

When I was a kid, what did you always tell me when you put me to bed? [Mary: Dean, I don't understand—] Just answer the question. [I told you angels were watching over you.] (07:05)

Who'd have thought, Baby? We're civilians. (11:42)

That lawn looks like it could use some mowing. [Mary: You want to mow the lawn?] You kidding me? I'd love to mow the lawn. [Knock yourself out. You'd think you've never mowed a lawn in your life.] (13:08)

[Sam: I mean this whole warm, fuzzy, ecstasy-trip thing.] I'm just happy for you, Sammy. [Yeah, right. That's another thing. Since when do you call me “Sammy?” Dean, come on. We don't talk outside of holidays.] We don't? Well, we should. I mean, you're my brother. [”You're my brother?”] Yeah! [You know, that's what you said when you snaked my ATM card, or when you bailed on my graduation, or when you hooked up with Rachel Nave.] Who? [My prom date, on prom night.] Yeah, that does kinda sound like me. Well, hey, man, I'm sorry about all that. [No, look, it's all right, man, I just...you know, I'm not asking you to change, I just.... I don't know, I guess we just don't really have anything in common. You know?] Wait, whoa whoa whoa, yes we do. Yes we do. [What?] Hunting. [Hunting? I've never been hunting in my life, Dean.] Yeah, well, then we should go sometime. I think you'd be great at it. (17:51)

I can fix things with Sam. I can make it up to him. To everyone. [Carmen: Okay. What's gotten into you lately?] This isn't gonna make a lick of sense to you...but I kind of feel like I've been given a second chance. And I don't want to waste it. (19:58)

And there's this woman that's haunting me, I don't know why. I don't know what the connection is—not yet, anyway. It's like my old life is coming after me or something, you know, like it doesn't want me to be happy. Of course, I know what you'd say. Well, not the you that played softball, but you'd say, "Go hunt the djinn. It put you here, it can put you back. Your happiness or all those people's lives, no contest." Right? But why? Why is it my job to save these people? Why do I have to be some kind of hero? What about us, huh? What, Mom's not supposed to live her life? Sammy's not supposed to get married? Why do we have to sacrifice everything, Dad? (23:14)

I'm sorry that we don't get along. And I wish to hell I could stay and fix it. But I gotta do this. People's lives depend on it. (26:07)

[Djinn!Sam: Why'd you have to keep digging? Why couldn't you have left well-enough alone? You were happy.] [Djinn!Mary: Put the knife down, honey.] You're not real. None of it is. [It doesn't matter. It's still better than anything you had.] What? [It's everything you want. We're a family again. Let's go home.] I'll die. The djinn will drain the life out of me in a couple days. [But in here, with us, it'll feel like years, like a lifetime. I promise. No more pain, no more fear. Just love and comfort and safety. Dean, stay with us. Get some rest.] [Djinn!Jessica: You don't have to worry about Sam anymore. You get to watch him live a full life.] [Djinn!Carmen: We can have a future together, have our own family. I love you, Dean. Please.] [Djinn!Sam: Why is it our job to save everyone? Haven't we done enough? I'm begging you. Give me the knife.] I'm sorry. (34:47)

I gotta tell you, though, man, you know, you had Jess. Mom was gonna have grandkids. [Sam: Yeah, but Dean, it wasn't real.] I know. But I wanted to stay. I wanted to stay so bad. I mean, ever since Dad....all I can—all I can think about it how much this job has cost us. We've lost so much. And we've sacrificed so much. (40:43)

Sam—

[Dean: Get out of the car.] I'm going with you. [You're just gonna slow me down.] Tough. [This is dangerous and you could get hurt.] Yeah, and so could you, Dean. [Sam—] Look, whatever stupid thing you're about to do, you're not doing it alone, and that's that. [I don't understand, why are you doing this?] Because you're still my brother. [Bitch.] What are you calling me a bitch for? [You're supposed to say jerk.] What? [Nevermind.] (27:07)

Well, I'm glad we do [get along]. And I'm glad you dug yourself out, Dean. Most people wouldn't have had the strength. They would've just stayed. (40:25)

[Dean: We've lost so much. And we've sacrificed so much.] But people are alive because of you, Dean. It's worth it, it is. It's not fair, and, you know, it hurts like hell, but it's worth it. (41:24)

21. ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE, PART I

Dean—

I'm gonna take care of you. I'm gonna take care of you. I got you. That's my job, right? Watch out for my pain-in-the-ass little brother. (39:32)

Sam—

[Jake: By the way, I, uh, appreciate what you're doing here.] What am I doing? [Keeping calm, keeping them calm. Especially considering how freaked to hell you really are. I've been in some deep crap before myself. I know the look.] Want to know the truth? I got this brother, right? And he's always telling me how he's gonna watch out for me, how everything's gonna be okay, you know, kinda like I've been telling them. [Yeah.] I don't know if I believe it this time. (22:56)

22. ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE, PART II

Dean—

[Bobby: Don't you think maybe it's time...we bury Sam?] No. [We could maybe....] What? Torch his corpse? Not yet. [I want you to come with me.] I'm not going anywhere. [Dean, please.] Would you cut me some slack? [I just don't think you should be alone, that's all. I gotta admit, I could use your help. Something big is going down—end-of-the-world big!] Well, then let it end! [You don't mean that.] You don't think so? Huh? You don't think I've given enough? You don't think I've paid enough? I'm done with it. All of it. (02:16)

You know, when we were little, when you couldn't have been more than five, you just started asking questions. How come we didn't have a mom, why do we always have to move around, where'd Dad go when he'd take off for days at a time? I remember I begged you, "Quit asking, Sammy. Man, you don't want to know." I just wanted you to be a kid, just for a little while longer. I always tried to protect you, keep you safe. Dad didn't even have to tell me. It was just always my responsibility, you know? It's like I have one job—I had one job. And I screwed it up. I blew it. And for that, I'm sorry. I guess that's what I do. I let down the people I love. I let Dad down. And now I guess I'm just supposed to let you down, too? How can I? How am I supposed to live with that? What am I supposed to do? Sammy. What am I supposed to do? (06:27)

That's the same deal you give everybody else. [Demon: You're not everybody else. Why would I want to give you anything? Keep your gutter soul. It's too tarnished, anyway.] (11:08)

You almost died in there. I mean, what would I have.... You just take care of yourself for a little bit, huh? Just for a little bit. (16:37)

Which is why we gotta find this yellow-eyed son of a bitch. That's why I'm gonna kill him myself. I mean, I got nothing to lose now, right? (19:00)

[Bobby: What is it with you Winchesters, huh? You, your dad—you're both just itching to throw yourselves down the pit.] (19:18)

Dad brought me back, Bobby, I'm not even supposed to be here. At least this way, something good could come out of it, you know? It's like my life can mean something. [Bobby: What? And it didn't before? Have you got that low an opinion of yourself? Are you that screwed in the head?] I couldn't let him die, Bobby. I couldn't. He's my brother. [How is your brother gonna feel when he knows you're going to Hell? How'd you feel when you knew your dad went for you?] You can't tell him. You take a shot at me, whatever you gotta do, but please don't tell him. (19:27)

[Azazel: You saw what your brother just did to Jake, right? That was pretty cold, wasn't it? How certain are you that what you brought back is 100% pure Sam? You of all people should know that's what dead should stay dead. Anyway, thanks a bunch. I knew I kept you alive for some reason. Until now, anyway. I couldn't have done it without your pathetic, self-loathing, self-destructive desire to sacrifice yourself for your family.] (32:23)

[Sam: You shouldn't have done that. How could you do that?] Don't get mad at me. Don't you do that. I had to. I had to look out for you. That's my job. (38:45)

Sam—

I kind of can't believe it, Dean. I mean... our whole lives, everything... has been prepping for this, and now I...I kind of don't know what to say. (36:35)

[Dean: I had to look out for you. That's my job.] And what do you think my job is? [What?] You saved my life over and over. I mean, you sacrifice everything for me. Don't you think I'd do the same for you? You're my big brother. There's nothing I wouldn't do for you. And I don't care what it takes, I'm gonna get you out of this. Guess I gotta save your ass for a change. (38:57)

#lol s2 finallyyyy #today i found out that one of my new roommates used to watch SPN and she immediately asked my opinion on w/nc/st #and i said 'well i have siblings and i'm not a freak so.' and she said okay good lol #spn #ej.pdf #supernatural #dean winchester #sam winchester #spn season 2 #spn season two #spn quotes

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tomb-bloom-noctem · 3 years

Note

Were there any episodes in season 3 where you felt they could've been written better? I'm only asking because I had some ideas I wanted to share with people about fixing them since, to me, the season started becoming a mess around The Phantom and the Sorceress. And the episodes don't need to be outright bad, there could just be parts in it you didn't like.

Oof. I've been a bit loud and obnoxious about certain episodes for sure 😅 I'll try to briefly sum up a few.

Also I'm just gonna say, some of these are just I don't like what they did rather than any huge fundamental problems like the finale.

Also disclaimer. This is not an attack on anyone who likes these episodes! Nobody has to agree with me! If you like these episodes cool! Glad you got something out of it! This is just Tombs being a nit pick loud mouth.

Rumble for Ragnarok

I can't complain too much about this one as it was still entertaining. Norse is part of my heritage and I'm a fan of the mythology which was on full display this episode. My only real issue this episode is that the message gets a little lost at least on me. And then two is I think out of all the episodes this one is the one that could absolutely be thrown out without losing anything really important. Trade this episode for something different. Something more important.

The Forbidden Fountain of the Forever Glades

Scrooge's behavior and leaving Webby in the jungle was painful to watch. (Much as I don't like the finale twist, the twist actually makes this episode worse.) [Also so much for Goldie's "fresh start" when in Split Sword of Swanstitine later showed she once again attempted to double cross Scrooge. Yeah. Fresh start. Totallyyyy.] Goldie is a fun character and I can't hate her too much. The episode has its merits and definitely still think this episode should be around but Scrooge's behavior here really kills me. Thankfully at the end he does better but ugh. It's low on the overall ranking for me based on how he behaves and treats Webby.

New Gods on the Block

I actually really love this episode but Storkules was pissing me off too much 😂 Nit pick for sure. I love this himbo but got dangit he was making me so mad. I get it was kinda important for the overall plot but come on we got so little Donsy content that it was frustrating that he was so intrusive.

The First Adventure

Nit picking again. I think it's kinda random how in the span of a few hours a hard ass like Scrooge went from "my obnoxious niece and nephew" to "my heirs and beloved family." I guess it's possible but not a fan of that kind of writing. For me it would make more sense that they had several adventures or at least more time with them before they became "his heirs" in his eyes. Extreme nit picking on my part though, the episode isn't bad at all really. Also no Hortense and Quackmore. Yes they were named. (Or she was) No we never got to see them. Rude! This was actually a really good episode though overall again I just have some minor nit picks.

The Fight for Castle McDuck

Okay this one is also kind of a nit pick but it's more like based on the episode's timing. I think it is absolutely ridiculous that Webby "Knower of all things Clan McDuck" has no idea that a family of Scots fights a lot. I can somewhat forgive it though as she's young and isn't as familiar with this side of the family in the flesh. But it's so weird how this late into the show we're seeing this?? I think I would have liked this episode more if it had popped up earlier into season 3 rather than so late? It just was a kinda weird episode and not the most enjoyable but the timing I think made it worse. Also the no mention of Hortense again. Referring to Matilda as the youngest when that's supposed to be Hortense? It's really not the worst episode. It just feels a bit off to me and again to me mostly the timing of it. Could have been better, could have been worse.

How Santa Stole Christmas

THROW THIS EPISODE INTO THE FUCKING GARBAGE. HATE HATE HATE IT. THIS ONE ACTUALLY MAKES ME RAGE.

This episode is actually worse for me than the finale. Literally I consider this episode the worst in the series. I just hate it!!!

I hate that this episode was about Scrooge and Santa. I really don't give a fuck why Scrooge hates Santa and this story in no way compelled me. (Also why was Scrooge and Santa's dialog weirdly shippy??? Thanks to this episode got another huge NOtp, "scranta" is gross, sorry, hate it. Absolutely cannot board that ship at all, I have the tag blocked.) I see absolutely no reason why this was the story we got when there was literally an option to follow up The Last Christmas now that Della was finally home????? MISSED OPPORTUNITY!!! I hate the weird crazy ass capitalist message going on throughout the episode, I get Scrooge is a capitalist himself but he didn't change from this episode? He walked away from Jennifer's obvious poverty life and went "ah as long as she's happy" instead of I don't know, maybe a message about helping the less fortunate??

Look maybe I'm just bitter from my own life. I've lived in extreme poverty my whole life. My parents home has literally looked so much liked the ruined place Jennifer lived in during the episode. And I live in Alaska so I KNOW COLD. I know how it feels to go cold for days on end, no food, no water, nothing. Extreme poverty. Scrooge could have done something. He wasn't like Donald who doesn't have much either. He's a freaking billionaire. He could have helped. And instead the message he walked away with is "if you're happy life is fine" or something. Whatever the message that was supposed to be from this episode is completely lost on me because all I see is a miserable rich old miser who hates letting kids have fun and won't help someone in need. Absolute garbage episode. I really wish they had instead just followed up on The Last Christmas. Or had some kind of family centric episode at least! I seriously fucking hate this episode so much. I would legit erase this episode if I could it is the WORST.

The Lost Cargo of Kit Cloudkicker

Nit pick again. Didn't love what they did with Kit. Okay I get the idea he grew up to idolize Baloo so he turned out more like him. It...wasn't great. Didn't like that much at all. Felt like they just tried to shove Kit into a DT87/DWD Launchpad mold. I didn't love that Baloo and Kit's relationship was mentioned weirdly casually? Like Kit called himself Baloo's sidekick??? Except in Talespin Kit calls him Papa Bear??? Also great, got another tag to block from this episode, the delkit ship. Not a fan, thanks.

Kinda weird for me with this episode I didn't really catch the meaning of it. To me it felt like the message was "defy expectations...by meeting them." It didn't really click and I kinda hated it for that plus the weird characterization of Kit. Actually I was on Twitter and someone was complaining about this episode and I responded in agreement and then FRANK REPLIED TO US 😅😅😅. Frank explained that the point was more of "if you're good at something, don't give it up" rather than "you can do anything you set your mind to" type message that appears a lot in kids media. (Also Frank please don't look at me when I'm criticizing the show 😂😂😂😂😭 I promise overall I do love it I'm just a loud mouth when I don't like something some times 😅)

After Frank explained that it did click a little better and I can see the message a bit more clearly. But I'm still not really in love with this episode like I wanted to be. I freaking love Talespin so that was a bummer. But as I've said a dozen times. I'm mostly nit picking my personal opinion.

The Life and Crimes of Scrooge McDuck

Another one I wanted to like more than I actually did. And mostly this boils down to Louie having to apologize to Doofus when Doofus is the one who's like some wild sociopath or something. I get it Louie hasn't been completely innocent towards Doofus. He did try to use him and con him but Doofus flat out has tried to hold him captive and torture and even kill him. Doofus' sins outweigh Louie's. Louie having to apologize to prevent the tension and all just...feels like victim blaming? This one is harder for me to describe why I don't like it and I think others have explained it better than me. I think it could have been better if Louie AND Doofus both apologized and agreed to start over and let what happened between them before be water under the bridge. At least this way they're equals? Maybe it wouldn't have been the best fix but I feel it would have been better than Canon. This one I don't want to call a nit pick. This one feels like there is something fundamentally wrong with it but I struggle to explain. Mostly other than that though I think the episode was fine. A little weird that the karma court scale needed to be told the villains hearts rather than able to just know them (mostly looking at the Ma Beagle one here) but that part is more nit pick.

And finally...The Last Adventure

I have things I love about it. The individual character moments. The references and call backs. The music. This finale was clearly made with love and care.

But that damn Webby clone daughter thing twist changes things. I know some people say it doesn't but to me it does! I feel it messed with the family dynamic and the characters in a needless way. I feel it didn't add anything to but rather did take away from. I don't wanna say too much on it as there's already been so much talk on it so in keeping it brief- not a fan, didn't like, why the hell, no.

The thing with Bradford kinda threw me off too. His logic and insistence on not being a villain made him so interesting. He was truly a villain to rival Scrooge. Then in my opinion he was pushed into a weird middle ground. He didn't feel like he completely abandoned what he previously stood on but also didn't go full villain either? I get a villain like Bradford isn't easy. The writers have to truly bring their all for someone like him. But Bradford suddenly getting armor and the Split Sword and becoming a battling giant was kinda ????? inducing. Threw me for a bit of a loop. I probably need to watch this episode a few more times before I finally settle on where I sit with the Bradford thing but at least at this time I just feel kinda mixed on it. Maybe I missed something there.

Other nit picks from the finale. Donald's writing was a little weird, he sounded like he was going on vacation but then Della said he was moving out and Donald talked like "well you have the boys and Uncle Scrooge..." it just really sounds like he's leaving the family?????????? Especially at a time like this? Rude! I mean yes somebody please get this man a vacation but the writing here left me kinda confused and there is no reason Donald would ever just leave and act like "oh well their mom is back so my work here is done." Nope. DADnald for life.

Lena and Webby never getting shown to have made up after their fight. I imagine the giving June and May the friendship bracelets kinda implies it but come on. Even just a hug would have been good. Also...why are they giving up their friendship bracelets??? Confused, not a fan.

And also...in addition to the Clone twist, I really don't love that April, May, and June were all clones instead of Daisy's nieces. I really wanted to get to see them in the show and now I just feel like thanks I hate it! I admire the guts to make a twist like this and all but I really hate it.

Overall please let me say I LOVE Ducktales. The show as a whole to me is a huge important thing I love. This isn't an attack on anyone who likes these episodes. I am just once again being loud and obnoxious with my own opinions and nit picks and things I just would have liked to see or not see.

no idea if any of this rambling answers your question Anon but here you go. Hope it works.

#ducktales #ducktales 2017 #ducktales spoilers #season 3 #season finale #ducktales finale #ducktales season 3 #tomb talks #personal opinion #series finale #not attacking anyone #just speaking my mind #long post #ducktales criticism #ducktales critical

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sanstropfremir · 3 years

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it's kingdom time for real!!! the first episode is here and mnet finally uploaded the stages from like a month ago so i can actually watch them more than once to review.

happy to see them all actually performing. not the most interesting stages overall, but it was the 100sec one-take so i wasn’t expecting anything crazy. like the performance stages, this is about what i expected at this point in the show.

ranking under the cut, i have Opinions(tm) and they are not all pretty.

(anyone that’s seeing this for the first time, i’m a trained performance designer with over 30 credits and a decade of experience, yes i can talk about this with authority)

a few general notes:

this type of stage that mnet has built is called a traverse, or alley, stage. named exactly for the reason you think. it’s characterized by a narrow playing space with audience on opposite sides, and two entrances on either end. so mnet had a pretty typical setup. there are some advantages to this type of stage:

because of the narrow stage space and usually smaller audience capacity, the performer and audience are in much closer proximity

because of the shape of the space, blocking (choreography but for not-dance) can travel well and be very dynamic

it’s uncommon outside of midsize/small productions so there’s some novelty for the casual theatre goer

however! there are some pitfalls with this type of stage. the hardest type of stage to work with is (theatre) in the round. theatre in the round is characterized by being....in the round. that means the audience is placed 360 degrees around the playing space. which means that they can see everything; every entrance, every exit, every performer’s back, 360 degree sightlines means there is nowhere to hide. and in a medium that relies on concealment to create magic, it’s a tough stage to work with. not saying it doesn’t work. some of the most incredible shows i’ve been to have been theatre in the round, but when you go to those type of shows, as an audience member you understand that there will be some scenes where you only see the actors’ backs. there is no perfect seat in the round. the reverse is true as well, the actors can only act to those in front of them. and like i stated previously, on the production end it becomes difficult to hide things like props/set/costume changes that you might have been able to in another type of theatre. why am i talking about theatre in the round? because traverse works on exactly the same principle. even though the audience is only on two sides, the same issues still arise. directionality is key: a director has to be careful of how exactly the stage gets blocked.

why am i talking about stage formats? because the space always informs the performance, that’s why. i think mnet made a sort of smart choice to build a traverse stage. since the ‘audience’ is a video camera, that eliminates the need to play to the opposing seating banks, and opens up more staging opportunities. it’s a fancy looking stage that does what they need it to.

now here’s my gripes. if you’re going to specifically orient a stage so that it is by nature directional, why are you broadcasting in a format where direction doesn’t matter? if the camera has no fixed position, then you’ve just skipped directly into in the round staging without taking into account the function of the space. it's a round peg in a square hole; yes it fits, but you can see the spaces where it doesn’t quite match up. for a very obvious example, any shot that is not staring directly down the barrel of the stage from left or right has audience in it. and not enough to be worthy of a reaction shots (because those are just cut in in post), but enough to just be there. why would you do that when you could just.....not? just go properly in the round and then you wouldn’t have that distraction. especially when the audience is wearing white. also, there are only so many ways you can stage on a traverse, you’re pretty much limited to directional points on a compass, because there are literal risers in the way. because of the way most groups are choreographed, the member layouts lean more towards having the members in a line than they do layering the members deep. this configuration is fine on a proscenium stage (which is what most stages are), and would even be fine on a traverse stage if you were playing to the risers. you could even do some interesting choreo alterations. but! because mnet has decided that the camera is perpendicular to the risers, that means that most of the formations are not optimized for the stage dimensions and are in fact the opposite dimensions. most of these groups are doing their longest blocking across the shortest area of stage, which is dumb. although it isn't much of a problem because the stage is still very large, but it's still a bizarre choice on behalf of mnet. why would you not arrange the stage so you have more clearance for the camera, the audience, and also the performers? i would have to check back over the rtk performances, but im pretty sure at one point they switch to an in the round stage. why are you not doing that from the start? this would also allow for more built setpieces. although it does remain to be seen if they do switch after this episode, since this particular challenge was a one-take with minimal props/set pieces. which segues to my next point: these groups barely took up the parameters of the challenge, or utilized them effectively! this is also mnet’s fault, mnet if you say that you’re gonna do a one-take, don't cut between seven other cameras!! show us the power of that single point of view! let the groups actually do some interesting blocking with the path of the camera! there’s so many interesting things they could have done, but no!! had to be boring!! i know this is technically an introductory stage, but i also don't care. these groups have (relatively) competent ADs and stylists, they can think outside the box.

ok now here’s my actual rankings:

1. btob

sorry babies, none of you can match them vocally. love you ateez but you sure fucked up picking them to go after you because they blew you out of the fucking water. and everyone else, but ateez cumulatively is the weakest vocally. more on that later. like the performance stage they showcased their strengths and the experience (and training) shows. good use of the directional stage having three vs one that came together in the middle. loved the white suit variations, im especially a sucker for a belted suit jacket. loved peniel's gigantic trench and massive earrings, very mid 90s, his stylist definitely took a lesson in how to accessorize very short hair. always love good use of fog. uniform colour theme, all elements were there to support the vocals. no complaints, chef’s kiss.

2. ikon

hey baby groups? see bobby having fun? do that more. i know you think performance face is sexy and serious but none of you know how to act and you all look dead inside on stage. the lights may be on but nobody’s home. anyways. excellent beginning formation, excellent ending formation, no complicated position changes that make the camera give you motion sickness. fun choreo that they are obviously having fun performing, which goes sooooo far in the success of a performance. only group so far to use silence as an effective device, and the arrangement was interesting and suited to the song+performance. i think it was smart of them not to deploy bobby right away, although it would have been funny to watch after whatever it was that stray kids was trying to do. again, like btob and also sf9, sticking to their strengths. costumes fun and fitting, indicative of both the colour of the group and of the song. nice detail in the monochrome and the black accent details.

3. sf9

taeyang is that bitch and they only way this would have been better is if he had actually grabbed the ties of those two other members (if you think i am going to remember anyone's names other than the people i already know you are wrong). love the confidence to waste a good chunk of your 90 seconds for walking and standing in formation. actual good use of one-take directional camera, even though they ruined it once they started dancing. choreo perfectly fine, lighting good complementary colour scheme, costumes nothing to write home about, surprisingly good projection design? wasn’t expecting that. im not the biggest fan white suit jackets over black shirts but ill give it a pass for the proper suit accessorizing.

4. ateez

i applaud your dedication to the pirate gimmick but boys you don't need that anymore, i promise. hongjoong's lil bloody cough was a fun gag that didn't draw too much attention but fit with the theme. came out of the gate strong with an actual clear narrative, which can be a challenge to do in 100 seconds, and the only group to have a narrative. also actual camera choreo! that was interesting! mnet stop fucking cutting to overhead shots! apparently im destined to always be beefing with the ateez stylists because what was the point of all that? very little variation in texture or pattern on matte all black just made any relevant details disappear. torch gimmick and end formation fun, and the arrangement had an obvious climax. weird and kinda fun projection design, but not helped by concert-style stage lighting. pick one or the other lighting designer, don't make them fight like that! props to them for actually having their mics on the whole time, even though they are probably the weakest group vocally. im also going to be beefing with the choreographer because they are always making seonghwa sing while doing ridiculous moves that make him go offkey. ateez has some of the stronger 4th gen vocals, but they're at a disadvantage because a) none of them have proper vocal training, and b) their main vocal is not actually a skilled singer and is destroying his voice.not a lot of vocals for them to showcase this stage and that was probably for the best. hanya (@changdyke) is in charge of vocals critique and will have more to say about this than me, even though i am also trained. im just here to talk about the production.

5. the boyz

im neutral to positive on tbz because i did really like their danger stage from rtk. this performance is just....fine. I don’t like the arrangement, but that's mostly personal opinion. but it doesn't have a conclusive end and the whole dissonance thing isn't really working for me in this instance. the choreo is quite flippy and tricking is not necessary for an interesting choreo. i did like the throwback/use of modern choreo, i think that's a strong choice for them and it's not something that many other groups are doing, so they should stick more to that than to tricking. the camera choreo is also not good. here’s where the clearance issues and fighting against the stage layout happen! stop making a handheld do a 180! are you trying to make us motion sick? to be fair, this is not the most egregious one, but at least ateez got it right by having a person lead the camera in a particular pattern. also, what even is the theme here? leatherclad boys in the forest? nobody give me any shit saying it's based off one of their music videos or whatever, that shouldn't matter. there should be a clear theme that can be easily identified without prior knowledge of the group, especially when this is an introductory stage and they are a relatively young group. none of the other groups have this issue. that being said, at least the costumes were interesting to look at, although thematically confusing. good use of accessories, texture, and bedazzling to make the black stand out against the stage. the hands in front of the camera were kind of fun but didnt really mean anything? again, back to the lack of clear concept. i did like them reaching out to pull that member forward, it would have been better if they had just left it at that.

6. stray kids

the more i watch this the more i hate it. im not even sorry about it anymore. starters, and i will admit this upfront: i do not like most 4th gen music, so the spiderman meme groups are already operating on a deficit in my point of view. and i particularly did not like this arrangement. same as with tbz, why did it not have a conclusive end? also overuse of sound effects. and stop saying your fucking band name! the only musician that’s allowed to do that is jason derulo and thats because hes a meme now. but twice in 100 seconds? no. and what was the point of that logo/crown reveal? im tired of crown reveals we have seen them so many times by now, we don't need to see it again. was it meant to be that they were carving it into the ground?? very unclear. there was an attempt with camera choreo, and i will admit that the pan up and then back down to the ‘wolf pack’ was probably the strongest moment in the whole performance. the lights were in their mouths, by the way. however, the rest of the choreo is all over the map, quite literally. as with tbz there’s a lot of members in the group and so in order for everyone to get their screen time they break down into smaller groups, which i don't disagree with on principle, but here.........the breakdowns are just tricking, which although eyecatching, does not a very compelling or cohesive choreo make. even the unison choreo is weird, obviously its stylized horror but it just looks awkward and strange. you can make awkward/unattractive choreo work (see taemin’s want, or even move, to some extent)***, but skz doesn't have an ounce of the charisma that taemin has so it just looks awkward. also, that rapid switch between opposite sides of the stage? nausea inducing. ateez was the one with the pirate concept but skz apparently trying to make us seasick. im not gonna say anything about that rap other than it was bad, why was that allowed on stage. the sparkthrower was fun but that's like the 14th gimmick in this 100 second stage and that’s too many gimmicks. costumes are truly nothing to write home about, extremely unclear relation to the theme. if you're gonna be wolves then at least have some fur accents or something. the makeup effects were a bit over the top and not necessary in the actual performance. a hairdresser needs to thin out felix’s hair because he looks like he's wearing one of those lego hair helmets. oh, i did like that one guy’s shirt with the collarbone cutout, but again: how is that relevant to the theme? cmon people!!!! design the whole experience!! im sure there’s more i could write but holy shit this is long and im tired and also i don't want to watch this stage anymore.

ok im done. jesus this is long. again, this is just the intro stage so i suspect that some of my complaints will become null next week, but we’ll have to see! well, what i actually want to see is changmin insulting children but i’m not holding out hope for that to happen. hopefully we see some more spectacle-y stages and i can really go in.

***this is not me saying that taemin has a bad choreo that he’s making the best of. want is purposefully choreographed that way in order to showcase taemin’s ability. same with move. the point of want is that it IS awkward and should not be seductive or appealing and yet it still is. almost like....it’s in the name of the song or something.....

#this is mostly stream of consciousness and has no clear thesis but i do not care #kingdom #kingdom review #anybody that has questions or doesnt understand my theatre jargon just ask im happy to clarify!#do not come at me with the 'if you dont have anything nice to say' bullshit these are performers performing is their job #i can and will critique them on it because it is also my job #like my actual real life job #and this is stress relief and a fun analytical exercise for me #even if this is almost 3000 words.....#kpop analysis #text

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hoezier · 4 years

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why do you not like jane the virgin season5?

Ah JTV season 5... where does one begin with JTV season 5? The utter disaster. The NERVE to call that flaming mess their best season in promotions. The insanity of thinking this the best that show has offered us when it was their worsT season.

Let’s break this down, shall we?

1. Michael’s return: I was against the idea of them bringing back Michael from the very start. One of the reasons for that was that I didn’t like the implication that the only way to validate Jafael would be by her choosing Raf over Michael in a parallel situation, ‘cause guess what, that’s a crappy message. And makes it seem like whatever relationship one enters into after the tragic loss of a partner is lesser because they didn’t choose that new relationship over the old one, which is not at all something that you want to send to any audience. But my main reason was that I didn’t think they could pull it off. And guess what? I was right. His amnesia happening and I was like okay, but what the fork are you gonna make Jane insist he remembers her only to be like but lol I love Raf so bye. And then she does exactly that but not once does she or anyone else question the rightness of such actions? Everyone is so blase about it? And speaking of memory loss, memories are such a weighty SL to take on and rarely do shows get it right. So I wasn’t expecting JtV to get it right, really. But they still royally forked it up. Because Michael with no memories = Michael is a dick and I’m like???????????? Why???? One’s personality is vastly complex???? It doesn’t hinge on specific memories and experiences only? And even in the absence of the ability to recall specific things you still can have a visceral reaction to things through simple cognition and internalization of certain habitual patterns which has nothing to do with memories?

But, okay, fine, he’s back. He has no memories. He’s kind of a jerk. Fine. Okay. But then he gets his memories back and it has absolutely no bearing on anyone who is not Jane? Rogelio loved him? He was a part of the family for over 3 years? HELLO? Does no one else care about the implications of this beyond the godawful (at this point) love triangle? Where are the emotional stakes? The drama? The fact that they lost but didn’t lose this person and now he’s back and he fits back in but also doesn’t fit in all the worst places and it hurts and no one knows what to do with it? Who the fork care about the love triangle, this person was family and he DIED and then got back and then lost his memories and now he has them back oh my god stop just standing there. DO SOMETHING.

But okay, fine. He’s back. He has no memories. He’s kind of a jerk. He got his memories back and no one cares about it meaning anything except about the triangle. Okay, fine, I’ll roll with it. Now give us some juicy delicious drama for the triangle. But they don’t? Michael doesn’t at all react to her being with Rafael. He doesn’t lose his sh*t in any way about the trauma that he had to go through. He doesn’t have feelings of anger or resentment that he lost years of his life and now he’s back only to find that the love of his life has moved on. And no one is saying that he’d be right in those emotions, but he’s a person, yes? And sometimes you feel things that aren’t right or aren’t fair because that what emotions are like and that’s where all the drama is and I’m just absolutely bAFFELD? that?? they?? missed????? such??? obviously??? ripe?? material??? for?? heartbreak???? that would have made even the most die hard Jafael shippers cry????? How?????? AM I SUPPOSED TO TELL THEM HOW TO DO THEIR JOB?? Do I have to do everything myself to get it right? Not once does Michael react in any recognizably human, non-angelic way. He acts not like a person but a cardboard cut of a man who can do nothing but tout “I just want you to be happy” and it’s like????????????????? why??????????? bring????????????????????? this?????????????? storyline????????? if you will not take full advantage of one of its most obvious emotional stakes???? whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

2. Rafael: Micheal’s return inevitably leads us to the utter garbage that was Rafael’s characterization in this season. Fork me did we get forked seven different ways with how this was handled. First and foremost, Jennie Urman kept saying that it was a huge sacrifice of Raf to bring Michael back to Jane’s life and basically, this is the act, this is the incredible sacrifice that we are supposed to hold as the criteria for everything romantic and that’ll lead us to believe that Raf is the one and I’m like????? dude??? that was basic decency? I know it must have been painful but like..... he absolutely had to tell her he had absolutely no choice???? But no, GREAT SACRIFICE. Said as such so must be taken as such.

But okay, fine, whatever. Great sacrifice. But then what? Then he gets insecure. Which makes sense considering the whole situation about Michael before. But it’s brought up in a way that just makes him.... how do I put this nicely? Makes him a dick, tbf. And I’m like Jennie wants me to root for you but you’re crying about your pain and about wanting to be engaged to the woman whose world just turned upside down and I’m like????????????? Hello?????? Can you calm tf down for twO seconds and let her figure out her way??????????

But okay, fine, whatever. Great sacrifice. Then he’s a dick. It’s fine it makes sense that he’s so insecure. The ghost of the past has crept back up and he’s so damn afraid to lose everything that he ever wanted when he was so close to having it all. And people aren’t perfect and they don’t always react in a perfect way and that’s fine. AND this is a great opportunity to explore his insecurity! And finally put him through therapy! And finally have him move on past his self destructive behavior! So they kind of do that but in the most laughable way possible. So the moment that he breaks up with Jane could have actually been a great character development moment. And it is. Kind of. It’s a moment where he acknowledges that, unlike the first time where he went as far as to try and sabotage Michael’s career to take him out of the competition and win Jane over, this time around he’s not willing to live through that charade. He’s putting his own self preservation and making it easy for Jane by taking himself out of the equation altogether. So, he breaks up with her and we seem to be on the right track, barring the whole Mateo walking in on them situation (we will get to Mateo in a second). Sure, he has that momentary relapse in the following episode where he wants her back but it’s quickly done and he starts to take anti-depressants., And I’m like YES finally, getting to the good stuff! But then... THE WHOLE STORYLINE HAPPENS OFF-SCREEN. Do you know how ENRAGING it is that something so essential to Rafael’s arc in the last season happens completely off-screen? Not once do we see him go through therapy. Not once do we see his perspective. NOT ONCE. Not to mention it happens off-screen in the span of one episode which is like 2 days at most and I’m like????????? (ALSO, an aside to writers: As a person who suffers from depression, the healing is not in the medication, the healing is in the therapy sessions. The medication is important to curb your symptoms and lift up your mood and help your brain cope with the chemical nightmare happening there. But it doesn’t address the root cause that’s made you depressed. THAT happens in the sessions. So you can’t simply throw pills at the issue. That’s only a half solution)

But OKAY, FINE. Great sacrifice. Then he’s a dick, but it sort of kind of makes sense. And then he breaks up with her our of self preservation, and then depression that happens off-screen. But then... but then NONE of his past behavior is acknowledges or talked through. Jane doesn’t confront him about it. And then, when that conversation does come up when they decide to get married in city hall, it’s half baked and doesn’t really delve into root issues.

(I could talk about Rafael’s career, too, but I Do Not Have the Strength)

3. Jafael: Which brings me to Jafael *screams into a pillow*. So like, they’re happy by the end of season 4, and it looks like they’ll make it. And they’re about to get engaged and all. And then Michael comes back to throw a wrench in the plans. Because as Jennie Urman would have us believe, conflict and choosing each other can only happen in the context of a triangle. Heaven forbid that we come up with new storylines. ANYWAY. So all of the problems of early season are discussed in Raf’s section. But then, okay, Jane chooses Raf, she tells him that he’s the one for her and leaves Michael behind. And he’s like lol, nope, I don’t trust you no more. Which, okay, makes sense. If he’s so insecure and has been spiraling, it makes sense that he wouldn’t want to be with her right now. So I go like, yeah, okay, fair. And you guys need to figure your stuff out before you can get back into this relationship. Jane understands that she needs to win him over again and that doesn’t work and I’m like, yeah, that’s not the problem. Let’s talk about the real problem. But then they don’t? We, once again, do not get to see Rafael’s perspective, not once managing to experience what’s happening in his head. So we’re kind of just left in the dark, wondering what he’s thinking and how he’s dealing.

But, okay, fine, I’ll accept that this is not what we will be experiencing. But then once they reunite, surely they will address his trust issues. Right? RIGHT? Well, guess what, I am the forking goddamned motherforking fool. Absolutely NOTHING gets acknowledged. Their reunion is not prompted by a change that Rafael feels about his issues of trust, but rather just him remembering that he loves her. Which we know. The lack of love was never the issue. The issue was, has been, is about his insecurity and there is no reason for me to believe that this has been cured by absolutely no acknowledgement.

But fine, okay, I’ll accept all of this. Fine okay, he remembered how much he’s loved her and doesn’t have the strong will to use his head anymore. He just wants her back. But, surely, once they get back together they will march their asses to couple’s counseling and figure that shirt out, yes? RIGHT? But once again I am the forking goddamned motherforking fool. It is absolutely NOT what happens. Instead, they hurtle head first into their previous arrangements, as if the past few months, ripe with trauma and emotional distress has not at all happened. And, guess what? It DOES, in fact, become an issue, when Raf wants to pressure her into a city hall marriage because he’s afraid he’ll lose her again. And I’m sitting here like...????????/ you think one conversation where she promises and swears that she’s committed to him will actually solve things? An offhanded conversation that you had like three episodes before the finale and will absolutely not acknowledge after???? And I’m supposed to believe that, what, they’re cured? Saying the right words was never the issue, it’s internalizing them??? And marriage is no guarantor of you not losing a person???? You not feeling secure in a relationship will not disappear once a wedding happens?????? hELLO????

All of what is mentioned above about Jafael is also compounded by two other bullshirt factors in their writing for season 5: Mateo and sparks/romance.

The heavy involvement of Mateo in Jafael’s relationship and storyline has got to be one of the most baffling writing decisions of this season. First, let me clarify that I understand that this would justifiably and understandably be hard for Mateo. But Mateo’s direct involvement in the emotional conflict is just... no. I cannot fathom why they had him walk in on Jane and Rafael’s break up. Having him there to heighten Jane’s heartbreak actually undercuts Jafael because it becomes more about the loss of traditional, nuclear family bliss than about the couple itself. And the continued use for him as the epitome of tragedy for this couple not reuniting only serves to reinforce the idea. Making this more of a case where Mateo is heartbroken but reassured that this doesn’t mean that they’re no longer family would have been a lot more effective, IMO.

The other thing: Sparks and romance. Usually, in big couple moments on JtV, there tends to be a big moment, a big realization before a decision is made. And that realization is usually the result of build up from that same episode if not several ones. But, this season, those moments fell short. Jane’s realization was... okay, but wasn’t caused by anything externally that happened between her and Raf. Which, I guess is fair but misses the epic romance factor. But the one that was truly anti climactic is Rafael’s moment of realization that led to their reunion. This is IT, JtV, this is your main couple reuniting. This is your main male character fINALLY ready to reunite with the titular character. No time to hold back now. But then they did? Him realizing he loves her and wants to be with ehr still is merely through a list of pros and cons that he makes about someone else only to realize that it doesn’t matter. This person is Jane. And I’m like... but what changed, really? What shift happened? What did Jane do that made those sparks fly again??? How did he make the leap to actually deciding it’s time to throw caution to the wind. A huge part of this problem is that we didn’t see any of Raf’s point of view. So it’s near impossible for us as audience members to really follow his logic.

4. Cordueva: Now, of course, talk of Jafael naturally brings us to Michael and Jane. I don’t have much to say in their regard except they were done such a huge disservice. One of the things that makes my blood boil is how not only Jane’s book about Michael had to flop, but they also had to make it so that she couldn’t at all get the deal for the book if it weren’t for regelio’s intervention. And it’s such an unnecessary extra dig at the couple? Like why do that? Why not leave it at Jane’s book being a commercial flop? Commercial flops in the book industry are very very very common for a variety of reasons, especially for young authors. In fact, debut authors especially are unlikely to earn back their advances so like, it’s not the end of the world. And it’s hardly ever an indication of the quality of the book if it doesn’t sell well. Just fucking let it be what the fuck Jennie?

(I don’t have it in me to rant more about this couple though there is more that I can just reeeeeel over I’m sure)

5. Petra/Petramos: I’m kind of lumping these together because I do not have the strength. When it comes to Petra’s characterization itself, I think they did.. fine, for the most part. I think she had really good character development and has seemed to finally find her way through life in a balanced way, which i very much enjoyed. And her relationship with Jane, Raf, and the rest of the VIllanuevas became one of my favorite things by the end. Just so heart warming. The thing that puzzles me most about the characterization is her reaction to the triangle. The writers made her the writers’ stand in for Jafael which was a little ... eh? I know that she’s friends with both of them so she has a vested interest in the whole conversation, but it felt disingenuous in its representation. More of a way for the writers to validate their own approach to the couple than anything that seemed to naturally come from the character. Though, again, this is not really a huge deal, I guess, in the grand scheme of things.

Petramos is the one that really hurts. From the moment that we find out about Petra’s long lie to JR about the Anezka situation at the end of season 4, I knew we were in trouble for season 5. I couldn’t see how they could bounce back from that within the span of only 18 episodes that seemed already bloated with conflict and need to wrap up. I knew that while we were going to get some swoon worthy scenes between the two, the writing was going to be truly unsatisfying for the story. And that’s exactly what we ended up with: a half-baked initial reunion, followed by a quick relationship escalation, a brutal, traumatized and abrupt break-up, silence for the rest of the season, culminating in an endgame reunion that was anti-climactic and made no real sense. I have no reason to believe that what Petra and JR went through won’t happen again because the underlying cause that led them to a break-up never got fixed. And JR’s realization is far from effective because it happens off-screen, so there isn’t an arc that we’re following that would lead to the cathartic moment of their reunion. I’m glad we had that, don’t get me wrong. But it was not good enough.

6. Jane: This is the last character that I will go in-depth for. And even then, I’m not really sure how much strength I have for a deep-dive. I’m truly disheartened by the direction of Jane’s character by the end of the show. This is mainly due to the love triangle. Her SL was SO focused on the love triangle that she had very little else to do. And unlike season 1 and 2 where Jane’s love life worked in tandem with everything else that was happening in her life (being a mother to Mateo, her writing, her family, her friendships, her own inner world) none of these things truly shined in this last season. Her most satisfying interactions where with Petra. But all her other Storylines fell flat.

My main beef about this is her writing. What the actual fork happened to them this season when it comes to her writing? Jane has always been so good about incorporating Jane’s writing as a thread that holds the show together. They did it in entertaining and creative ways that weaved it seamlessly into the show without feeling too trite or too self conscious. But this last season just couldn’t seem to give a fork about Jane’s career as a writer anymore. Gone the magical realist elements stirred from her writing. Gone her alternate personas that she bounced ideas off of. Gone all the build up for the book. Instead, she writes the whole books, submits it, gets an agent, and gets a deal all within the span of like 3 episodes. There is no build up. It’s not thought through and has little bearing on emotional stakes beyond getting the deal. The show before has managed to somehow use Jane’s writing to propel forward storylines or plots. Sometimes, they were comedic goals (like her characters materializing and having conversations with her to offer insights, or the time when she messed up and sent a recording of her and Michael’s first time instead of her manuscript) or spurred on character relationships )the time when her story that’s based on Xo was accepted to be published and caused conflict) or were involved in a cathartic process for characters’ development (Her book about MIchael getting written and published). This last book that she writes feels so disjointed and has no bearing on anything else happening in the show beyond itself. It does not propel her into reconciliation with Rafael since it’s essentially the re-telling of their story. It doesn’t write into existence a different ending for the characters that would be interesting and imagine alternatives for their lives. It kind of just exist as a wink wink nudge nudge this is what we’re watching but how and WHY that’s important doesn’t really seem to matter all that much. And I’m like .. okay, cool.

The more disappointing thing about it is the lack of build up. For fork’s sake Rogelio’s telenovela had more build up than Jane’s book. That’s very confusing to me. Why would you not be so damn focused on this book that will bring Jane eventual success like it’s the thing that you’ve been building up to, because it IS the thing that you’ve been building up to?

Her wanting to give up after like three rejections is also confusing. Rejection is literally the name of the publishing game. Three rejections are nothing yo, you gotta be patient and have tough skin. And Jane does not seem like the kind of person who would not have that kind of resilience of that kind of faith in herself to become a hopeless mess after three (3) agents said no.

(Another thing that really salts my roots is how uninterested this show is in the publishing process. Absolutely nothing of what they did is realistic, starting from Jane’s belief that 3 rejections is catastrophic, to her agent putting the book on auction after ONE publisher is like idk :/ how would we sell it to the fact that Jane MAILS in her manuscript like we still live in the early 2000′s. Nearly no one accepts physical manuscripts anymore yo, it’s a near obsolete practice. Not to mention, the whole Michael must agree to the publication of this book is pretty bullsh*t, this is being published as a work of fiction. Not a memoir. There is no case for getting his permission because it’s a work of fiction, will be promoted and published as such, even if it says based on real life events, it’s still a work of fiction. Any problems that would arise out of a specific characterization done by the author will be personal problems between the writer and the Real Life person who does not enjoy the way they’re presented in the fiction. But from a legal stand point, it’s a work of fiction. Those characters belong to Jane because of that fact. But this is more of a personal beef because I work in the industry than anything else really)

The other SL that fell flat when it comes to Jane is the whole thing with Rose. That ending for Rose in itself was pretty anti climatic, but it is even more so by how completely ineffective Jane was in taking Rose down. I’m very confused by why the Narrator would say that Jane took down Rose. I’m like nah man she did shit.

7. Misc: These are just a few other scattered thoughts that made season 5 that much worse. Xo going to nursing school is confusing, out of character, and comes out of nowhere. Out of everything, honestly, this is not something that I imagined would be good for her. Alba and Jorge took so much time from everything else and were simply not that interesting. Jorge is kind of a dick, and Alba has nothing going for her beyond him this season. The other thing that I do not understand is how much time we spent with River Fields. I’m like but does anyone actually care? I know it’s Brooks Shield and all but I don’t give a damn about her emotional journey or her relationship with her daughter. Like just who cares, these realizations have no emotional bearings on our main cast why are we wasting time on this. The shoe-horned happy ending for Michael also felt disingenuous.

All in all, the last season of JtV was bad because the show forgot everything that it did well over the course of it’s earlier seasons. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk

#jane the virgin #hello this is an essay #i did not think i'd muster the energy for this lengthy of a rant lmao

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wonderlustxennial · 3 years

Text

Thoughts on TFATWS Season 1, Episode 3

This shit has gotten ridiculous, so I’ve decided that I’m going to start doing reaction posts, rather than posting 20 individual observations. The following was written after my second viewing.

DISCLAIMER: Some of these are my observations, but others I didn’t notice until my favorite YouTube and Tumblr analysts pointed them out. I’ll try to drop credit where it’s due.

NOTE: There’s something I wish more people were talking about, and it’s down in the Madripoor section. If I’m reading this wrong, I would appreciate getting some help in seeing it. So, if you’re game, please check it out and let me know your thoughts. (#tw:racial bias)

[spoilers below the cut]

Walker Raiding the Flag Smasher Sanctuary

Here we get a further illustration that Walker not a defender; he’s working in the interest of fascists. Also, he’s on an invisible countdown to flip his shit. ALSO-also, dude just told the GRC cops not to give anyone “a second…to breathe.” (Marvel, what are you doing? I am not accustomed to relevance from you.) Did you notice the juxtaposition of Bucky asking the cops, “Don’t you know who he is?” to get the cops to stop harassing Sam, against Walker asking, “Do you know who I am?” while roughing up a refugee for not cooperating with him? Same asshole move, very different contexts. Anytime someone thinks it’s a good idea to say, “Do you know who I/this am/is?” they’ve already lost face.

Zemo in His Cell

Clearly, I’ll have to get better about zooming in on stuff, because this is the first time I’ve seen anyone catch that the book Zemo is reading in his prison cell is about Machiavelli AND Leonardo da Vinci; specifically, about how their friendship and exchange of ideas was highly influential on the future of the world. So, does Zemo think he’s Machiavelli or da Vinci, AND who is his “silent” partner? [I didn’t notice that, until The New Rockstars pointed it out (at 04:00 https://youtu.be/xHXhbw_EGL8) annnnnndddd now I’m going to have to read that fucking book (Fortune Is a River: Leonardo da Vinci & Niccolò Machiavelli’s Magnificent Dream to Change the Course the Florentine History by Roger D. Masters, and the bump in book sales is about to have Masters owing Marvel BIG TIME).]

Zemo Is “Royalty”

And here we have my first problem with this episode. BARONS ARE NOT ROYALTY. They’re nobles—low-ranking aristocracy. But do you know what does check out? Zemo and his butler’s thinly veiled distain at entertaining the two low-born Americans.

On the Plane

Look out, y’all: Satan just took the wheel.

THE NOTEBOOK/S

If Bucky has Steve’s notebook, what happened to the one he had in Romania? In CA:CW, I was stressing throughout that WHOLE fight and chase sequence that followed Bucky running from his apartment; not for his safety, but because I hated how vulnerable it left him to have to run without his notebook. I’m not even kidding. Because Steve picked up that notebook, right? Did he think to take it with him? Surely, an embassy or intelligence service swept Bucky’s living space afterward, so who has it now? THIS is the shit I obsess over. Who has that fucking notebook? WHO??!

TROUBLEMAN

There are at least three different things at play here. First, Sam’s enthusiasm and nostalgia for this relic made me tear up a little. He was so hopeful that Bucky would share Steve’s appreciation this classic piece of socially aware art. Second, we get more evidence that Bucky might be having a harder time adjusting to life as a white man in the 21st Century than we’re led to believe Steve did. Third, we know from Zemo’s interactions with his steward just seconds before that, when he praises Troubleman, what he’s actually doing is virtual signaling to build trust with Sam and put Bucky on the back foot. Fourth, I don’t think Sam knows for sure if Zemo appreciated it as much as it says, but he intuits enough about Zemo’s character to be aggravated at the inference they might have something in common; or, that Zemo might be manipulating him to empty rapport. (RIP, Marvin Gaye. You weren’t done.)

DAS OFFENE NEIN IN DER LIEBI

The New Rockstars win again. (Seriously, I have to start paying closer attention.) A book using mythology to explain the psychology of relationships, just before Zemo namechecks Red Skull. Oh shit, y’all.

ZEMO’S PHILOSOPHY ON SYMBOLS & POWER

The slipperiest thing about Zemo is that nearly everything he says has a kernel of truth; you just have to dig out what his true intentions are. Honestly, this is what makes him…I don’t know that he’s the most dangerous villain in the MCU, but it certainly sets him apart. He’s both educated AND smart (the latter doesn’t necessarily follow the former), and he’s particularly insightful in his ruminations on power and its potential to corrupt both the people who hold it and the people who admire them. Bucky and Sam both loved Steve deeply and believed wholeheartedly in the capacity he served as a defender; however, they have a tendency to over-romanticize both. Multiply that problem by the millions who never personally knew him and, when he’s gone, you get…fake!Cap.

More Relevance from Marvel

I read that Marvel had to do reshoots because a few of the themes in this show hit a little too close to home after the pandemic hit (also because the Black Widow movie was supposed to hit first, but again…global fuckery, so they had to shuffle a few plot points.) But also, refugees? “Displacement” camps? Hoarded resources? You don’t say?

Madripoor

Or “When Murder-Sugardaddy Goes Slumming with His Awkward Sugarbabies and Heinous Fuckery Most Foul Ensues”

AT THE CLUB

THE POWER BROKER. THE POWER BROKER. THE POWER… Soooooooo. Many. Name drops. At this point, I don’t even care to speculate on the identity of the mother-fucking Power Broker. Just surprise me already.

And here’s my (potential) second problem with this episode: The Black bartender doesn’t recognize the Black man he’s presumably seen before.

A CAVEAT TO START: I bartended very briefly in one of my many former lives. I was terrible at it. But here’s what’s relevant for the moment: when you work in the service industry, you meet a lot of fucking people, and you don’t necessarily remember them all. I would work giant events where I would serve 1,000+ people in a night, and people would complain all the time that I was carding them even though I’d served them previously. (1) I live in a state where alcohol is highly controlled, and the ABC Board is zealous about doing stake-outs to catch vendors serving to minors. The ABC Board enforcers would only see me serving someone without having carded them first—not all the times I served them previously. None of these people were EVER worth going to jail for over alcohol. Get your fucking card out—EVERY. GODDAMN. TIME. (2) Dude-man-bro, I’ll have served 1,000+ people by the end of the night. Get your fucking card out, EVERY. GODDAMN. TIME.

I’m not saying this bartender in a rogue nation should’ve carded all of his patrons; I’m only saying that when you work in the service industry, you can sometimes serve someone 20+ times before you finally recognize their face or learn their names, and the process can start all over again if they haven’t come in for a while.

Here’s the real issue with this scene, as I see it: In-group bias is an actual thing. There are disciplines of social psychologists and sociologists who specialize in studying it. We’re supposed to believe that the “Smiling Tiger” person Sam is posing as is well-known enough, both by reputation and in that establishment, that the bartender remembered his favorite drink but not Sam as an imposter? I can believe Selby, a Caucasian-European woman, didn’t recognize him on-sight. [Frankly, Whites can often (regrettably) get away with not making any effort to overcome cross-racial bias.] But what about this bartender not recognizing a notable local criminal’s face when they belong to the same racial group, when we’re led to believe he’s served him many times before? And how did he know Tiger-whatever’s favorite drink if the guy had never been in the club? Are we to infer this guy wasn’t high enough on the local criminal food chain to have merited an introduction to Selby?) Is this a plot hole, or am I reading too much into this? I just wonder, given how much this series has devoted to exploring racial relations.

Sam just saw Bucky the most vulnerable as I think he ever has. For the first time, very little was left to Sam’s imagination as to what it must’ve been like for Bucky and Isaiah to have been exploited. And Sam is so good, he can’t help but jeopardize the mission to check on the friend he can’t acknowledge to himself he’s found in Bucky. (He also has no guile, which is so very Steve of him! I’ve just loved Mackie’s performance this whole show.)

I don’t know what to think about how easily it came to Zemo to objectify and use Bucky, again—even if only to pretend.

Bucky is the MCU character I most identify with, but I don’t care to analyze the way the bar scene made me feel. I will say this much, though: THIS is how badly Bucky wants this whole thing resolved. He subjected himself willingly to the stuff of his nightmares, even if to just to perform in the world’s most dangerous live-action role play. As many people were taking pictures in the bar, it’s pretty safe to say that this charade is going to going to have long-term consequences.

People are talking about Bucky “suddenly losing his super-speed” when they had to hoof it away from the bar like it’s a lapse in characterization, but it’s not. Bucky could’ve taken off and left both Sam and Zemo sucking dirt, but he lagged to stay with them. He didn’t ghost them.

SHARON IS A BLACK-MARKET ART DEALER

Godammit. I despise the practice of the filthy rich removing fine art and cultural artifacts from the public view so they can use them for tax breaks and currency. Way to push my buttons, Marvel! And I’m so sure the National Art Gallery of Art and all other art museums worldwide will I mean WON’T appreciate Marvel calling into question the authenticity of their collections, seeing as museum funding and attendance is already anemic thanks to the pandemic. I know it’s bad priorities on my part, but that’s temporarily preempted how much I should probably sympathize with her after her abandonment.

EDIT: The person who gave Sharon the intelligence will figure she had something to do with his demise just a few hours later. I wonder if that will help/harm her ability to do business. Also: holding the barrel of that assault rifle while it fired off rounds should’ve burned her hand horribly.

ZEMO BREAKS THE INTERNET

Did anyone else think “Sprockets!” when Zemo started dancing??!

NAGEL

This is two references to Langley in one episode. For anyone not aware (especially non-Americans), “Langley” is commonly used to reference Langley, Virginia, which is where the most prominent institution is the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (C.I.A.) headquarters. Both Hoskins and Nagel name dropped them in the same episode. Shit.

The Sugars Roll Up to Zemo’s Latvian Bolthole

Bucky’s mission just got a helluva lot more complicated. Sam might have bought the “just going for a walk” bit, but I doubt Zemo did. Bucky owes the Wakandans, but he still needs Zemo. Oh, boy.

Wrap-Up

I’m going to keep coming back to how unexpected it’s been to me that Marvel has finally started to course correct, focusing on characterizations and bringing in themes that are relevant to current events. WandaVision’s explorations of Wanda’s mental health and Monica’s forging of her new identity and TFATWS trying to engage with the audience on topics like race, violence, exploitation, and identity is hugely compelling to me. It’s a fucking TV show, but at this point in popular cultural history, I can’t think of anyone/anything else better positioned to address all of this in an entertaining and accessible way.

#entertainment #mcu #tfatws #spoilers

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beatriceeagle · 4 years

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no pressure if you're busy but i was wondering - is titans good? or is it more a show where you're like it's not /good/ but i like it? i thought it looked interesting but then everyone was so negative about it i kind of got put off. And then your (really excellent btw) video resparked why i thought it'd be interesting to watch in the first place. thanks!

I haven’t paid a ton of attention to what fans have said about Titans, although I’m aware that there’s a general negative vibe around it. I suspect that whether Titans is worth watching for you depends a whole lot on what you want out of Titans.

I went into the show having never read a DC comic in my life. I was coming off of a week-long Wikipedia binge on Batman and his associated characters—the Robins, the Batgirls, some dude named Signal—and was talking to @thirdblindmouse about how it had become overwhelmingly clear to me that we’ve been doing Batman all wrong for decades, and the way to tell the story is as an ensemble family drama about intergenerational trauma. And she was like, “Uh, have you seen Titans?” So all of my pre-existing understanding of the characters comes from Google and selected comics scans.

I suspect that the show’s interpretation of Dick Grayson, in particular, is... skewed? I’m almost certain, based on scans of comics I’ve seen/the half a season of Teen Titans I watched a lifetime ago, that its interpretation of Starfire is highly nontraditional. There are certain storylines that I know they’re adapting, but like, they are playing very loose with the adaptation of even some of the characters’ basic personalities. (I’m pretty sure—again, not really a DC comics fan!)

So if you’re very committed to a generally cheerful Dick Grayson, Titans will not give you that. If you have a vision of Batman as a generally decent man, Titans will really not give you that. In general, I think that the show would be better if it erred more towards a lighter tone for Dick—there are moments where he has shades of Quentin in season three of The Magicians, when Q was kind of endearingly hapless, and the show is better for it. But I think it earns its ambivalent stance on Batman, and uses it well. Batman in Titans looks and acts like your dad whose office you’re not allowed into. And Titans!Starfire is really amazing. Like, Anna-Diop-is-a-revelation, fuck-now-you’ve-got-me-shipping-against-my-will amazing.

The bigger issue that Titans has—and this is not unrelated to Dick’s characterization, I guess—is its relationship with violence. Titans is a really violent show, especially in its first season, and it’s off-putting. Pretty much every superhero show involves the heroes beating up bad guys; not every superhero show involves the protagonist mutilating someone in the course of a fight.

This is not unthinking hyperviolence. Titans (which is actually annoyingly pretty good about tracking character through action sequences) is trying to make a point: The compounding traumas of Dick’s childhood resulted in an explosion of rage. Batman funneled his anger into Dick; Dick funnels his anger into whatever bad guy he’s fighting. The show isn’t subtle about this idea. Dick says it out loud several times. Nor (after the first fight) does the show endorse Dick’s over-the-top violence. Everyone from Donna Troy to Dick himself remarks on it with, at minimum, concern. And over time, Dick’s fighting style changes; he consciously leaves the hyperviolence behind, until his final fight of season two is primarily evasive.

But Dick is not the only Titans character who is working out his rage on the criminals he apprehends, and the show is considerably less coherent in its tonal approach to other characters’ violence. Hank and Dawn—the masked hero team Hawk and Dove—have an origin story that plays out like the the backstory of a serial killer couple, their interlocking trauma and rage and grief finding expression and acceptance in each other. The show is aware of the dynamic, but it’s not clear that it’s aware of how disturbing it is. Hank and Dawn are, primarily, people who need to cause violence in order to be at peace in their own heads—and only secondarily, people who want to protect others from danger. Season two does do some work exploring this idea, but the exploration is confused by the fact that, in the end, the show wants both of them on the cast.

Which is kind of the problem with any superhero show that sets out to explore the ethics of superheroism—at the end of the day, the characters aren’t gonna retire to Wisconsin, you know? So Titans presents hyperviolence, presents it as problematic (sometimes), presents it as almost an inevitable consequence of traumatized teenagers deciding to pursue vigilante justice... and then builds a superhero team of traumatized teenagers and young adults. As is its basic conceit.

And on a more fundamental level, the hyperviolence just sort of makes the show feel very grim. It’s already an aesthetically dark show, a lot of the time, and then you’ve got people getting mutilated, and Batman’s an asshole and Dick Grayson’s got anger management issues, and it feels like the show’s grimdark.

I don’t think it is, though. First of all, despite everything, Titans actually has a sense of humor, both in general and occasionally about itself—I mean, it’s not Legends of Tomorrow, but it understands how to crack a smile every now and then. (They have a superdog. He shoots lasers out of his eyes!) But more importantly, at the end of the day, Titans is hopeful. Yeah, it’s a show about anger and violence and intergenerational trauma—but it’s more specifically about moving beyond those things. At its heart, it’s about being a better parent to your children than your parents were to you.

That central relationship between Dick and Rachel—Dick trying, and sometimes failing, but always caring and trying to be better for Rachel, and Rachel’s absolute fury with him when he fails, but her unshakeable devotion to him for being there, the unbelievable amount of sway he holds in her world—that’s what makes the show work for me. There are other vital relationships, too—Rachel and Kory, especially, but also all of the pseudo-familial relationships built up between all of the characters—but it all comes back to Dick and Rachel.

I mean, it’s a found family show. So much so that in season two, there are like, three separate speeches about how this is a family, not one of those stupid biological families, but a family we found, and isn’t that the important kind? And how grimdark can a found family show really be?

The other thing that might throw some people off—but which is actually one of my favorite things about the show—is the structure. If you take a look at the Titans episode list, you’ll see that roughly 75 percent of the episodes are named after a character or characters. Season one of Titans is basically about Dick, Starfire, Gar, and Rachel (Raven from the comics) traveling the midwest, picking up the people who will eventually form the main Titans team. When they encounter those people, they get a spotlight episode. So in episode two, “Hawk and Dove,” when Dick and Rachel lay low at Hank and Dawn’s, the episode starts out with an extended cold open, entirely disconnected from the main characters, just introducing us to Hank and Dawn as characters. Episode eight, “Donna Troy,” sees Dick go to visit his old friend Donna in Milwaukee, and... basically just hang out with her for half the episode, while the rest of the cast does plot stuff. Occasionally, these spotlight episodes stop the plot completely: Towards the end of season one, an episode ends on a cliffhanger. the next episode, rather than showing the outcome of the cliffhanger, is “Hank and Dawn,” an episode that flashes back to show the story of how Hank and Dawn met and became masked heroes. (There’s an in-episode device that eventually makes it clear why this story is related to the cliffhanger.) Season two uses the cliffhanger-into-a-flashback-spotlight-episode structure two more times, once with a character we’ve never met before.

I can see this being deeply frustrating to a viewer watching week-by-week (and I would not recommend watching Titans in that manner). And it’s certainly an unconventional way to structure a season of television. But honestly? I think it’s half of what I like about the show. The spotlight and flashback episodes are good—often some of the best the show’s produced. They don’t stop the plot for no reason; in season two, in particular, they provide context and backstory and characterization in a way that would be almost impossible to do, or to do so well, without the space of a full episode. They make the show more episodic than it would otherwise be—always a joy, in a television landscape full of 10-hour movies—and give it space to experiment with tone and genre. They make the characters richer, and the relationships more complex.

Does it slow down the plot? Absolutely. But Titans is not overflowing with complex plot, and I don’t really think it should try to. The plot of Titans hangs together juuuuuuuust enough to make the themes and characters and relationships work. It’s coherent—we’re not talking Teen Wolf, here—but it’s not brilliant, and honestly, that’s fine by me. But I suppose if you want your plot to be really good, this may not be the show for you.

Finally, I’ll say that Titans, though not what I would call a feminist show (it has a primarily male writing staff and I think it shows) does have a kind of surprisingly large female cast? I wanna say it’s five men, five women, by the end of season two? (Yeah, it’s a fucking enormous cast.) And the women have actual relationships with each other, ones that the show puts some effort into maintaining and remembering. I realize this is damning with faint praise, but honestly I’d just expected a show like Titans to not do that, and was prepared to ignore it, and was kind of pleasantly surprised when I didn’t have to.

In summary: I told my sister that Titans is 10% men in spandex standing on cars, 30% team as family, 30% intergenerational trauma, 20% an uncomfortable relationship with is own hyperviolence, and 10% Krypto the Superdog. I think that tracks. That show, despite having Anna Diop’s glowing presence, has a lot of flaws, but it also really worked for me on some soul-deep level. I am exactly on its wavelength.

I do not think that Titans is a fantastic television show, but I also don’t think it’s a very bad one. I think it’s generally competent show that is very interesting in some aspects, is weak in some areas, falls prey to some inherent trappings of its genre, is thoughtful about familial trauma, is not thoughtful enough about violence and criminal justice, has a lot of very compelling performances, is really poorly lit a lot of the time, pays a lot of attention to its visual language, kind of thinks Batman’s an asshole, and has Krypto the Superdog. It really worked for me; I can see why others might not be into it; it might work for you!

#thank you for giving me this opportunity to talk about titans #a show that has EATEN MY BRAIN #titans #meta

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spicysonictakes · 4 years

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Chris Thorndyke is... not the worst possible child stand-in? Like, his existence makes sense. Kids shows do need to have at least one character that’s relatable enough to allow them access to the world of whatever it is. But he’s still ultimately kind of unnecessary since he 1) isn’t great at being relatable, 2) isn’t the only character in the show with the potential to act as a stand-in (and is certainly less interesting than the other options), 3) weakens the plot and setting of the show by acting as a weight and tether to the rest of the characters in a way that doesn’t complement the show’s premise, and 4) has way too much emphasis put on him for a character that doesn’t fit in with the other characters in the show and isn’t all that likable.

After the timeskip, these issues become way less notable, but only because by that point he mostly gets relegated to side character status and doesn’t have too much bearing on the plot and direction of the show. Also, he’s significantly more likable. In the first seasons, though, Chris’s spotlight ends up just overall weakening the show, and let’s take a second to walk through exactly why.

1) He isn’t relatable.

The number one thing that a child stand-in needs to be is relatable to the kids watching. The point of Chris is for the audience to see the bond Chris has with Sonic and his friends and feel like they’re in on that; Chris may not be a supersonic hero, but he hangs out with one, so that makes him (and the audience) cool by proxy. However, Chris himself doesn’t really do much to support that image. For one, he’s super rich and the only thing that seems to go wrong for him is that his parents aren’t around a lot, because they work. While those would be fine on their own, anyone watching would love being put in Chris’s shoes and the parent thing makes sense and adds something to his character, the fact that Chris nonetheless is very moody (against what the audience might feel in his situation) and in fact ends up causing a significant number of the show’s conflicts for no easily understandable reason makes him seem a lot less like someone the audience can relate to than someone the audience is supposed to have an opinion about, good or bad.

Compare to another audience stand-in in the Sonic franchise, the avatar from Sonic Forces. Whether or not you think the avatar was a good inclusion to the game, you probably don’t have too many strong opinions on them as a character; you aren’t supposed to. They have an impact on the plot, but not because their personality is a given way that makes them take given actions; their impact is supposed to stand in for your impact, and their relationship with Sonic is supposed to stand in for yours. Not all stand-ins need to be THAT much of a blank slate, of course, but giving a stand-in traits that could make them in any way unlikable, someone the audience could conceivably disagree with, is very counter-intuitive toward making them relatable and, thus, an effective stand-in.

Chris acts halfway between a stand-in character and his own unique character and, as a result, ends up mostly failing at being either.

2) He didn’t need to exist.

The reason why the production team probably thought Chris (or, more generally, a stand-in character) would be necessary for Sonic X is because Sonic is meant to act as a larger-than-life hero; that is, they didn’t want to sacrifice Sonic’s static moral-touting character from the games in order to make him a more relatable, growing protagonist that could carry the story. As such, they felt they needed to add a new character who was meant to grow and change along with Sonic’s lessons in heroism.

The problem is, not every character in Sonic X is Sonic, and the other characters could have played that role just as well, if not better.

The first name that comes to mind is Tails, but Amy, Cream, and even Knuckles have also been used in the past as foils to Sonic, making mistakes and changing in response to Sonic’s actions in the exact way that Chris was made to. In fact, this even comes up in the show; at multiple points during the Sonic Adventure and Adventure 2 arcs, Chris ends up doing the same things Tails or Amy did in the original game, but with significantly less impact since he... well. He isn’t Tails or Amy.

This all adds up to both Chris’s inclusion feeling redundant and the non-Sonic main characters feeling underutilized. In particular, Chris’s arc feels like it would have made a lot more sense and felt more meaningful if it was given to Tails, who has in the past had arcs based around feeling like he needs Sonic in order to be important or successful. In fact, if Chris’s spot was given to Tails, that arc would make even more sense since it would be able to actually be resolved; Chris’s arc never ends up resolving, since... he does end up needing Sonic, actually. Without Sonic, he isn’t really all that interesting. That particular arc would work much better on Tails, who is a VERY interesting and fun character, even without Sonic.

3) He weakens the show.

This point was already touched on earlier, but Chris’s inclusion isn’t just unnecessary. It actually, in a way, takes away from what the show could have been. What he ends up becoming over the course of the first part of the show is a stable rock that Sonic and the rest of his friends can orbit around but always come back to; he becomes the arbiter of the show’s status quo, if you will. This is a problem because the status quo he sets up isn’t one that works well with this particular set of characters.

Sonic’s whole shtick is that he’s a free spirit who doesn’t like being tethered to anywhere, anyone, or anything that he doesn’t want to. You’d think that one of those things he wouldn’t want to be tethered to is a mansion where he has to hide against his will, or a kid who clearly can’t keep up with him. In fact, this comes up in the second episode; he tries to leave, but Chris ends up convincing him that Sonic needs his help, only for it to turn out that... really, he didn’t. He needed Tails’ help, but again, Chris isn’t Tails. Thus, by the end of the conflict, it’s been proven that Sonic really doesn’t need to stay.... and yet, he still does. He stays with Chris for his entire time on Earth, despite the fact that he really had no reason to outside of liking the kid, and he had plenty of reason to want to leave.

Okay, maybe if he just up and left, that’d make Sonic kind of a jerk. But the point still stands that Sonic isn’t really the sort of person that would go back to a mansion at the end of the day, hiding away out of “necessity” that he knows more than anyone isn’t necessary. The way the story frames it is as Chris helping, but again, Chris isn’t actually helping, and neither is his grandpa; everything that the status quo perpetuated by Chris’s continued existence in the story provides is either unnecessary or actively detrimental to the end of seeing Sonic do cool Sonic things! It ends up feeling very forced, and you can’t help but feel that Sonic and friends would be doing much better if left to their own devices, not needing to constantly deal with a friend that doesn’t and can’t help. Sonic doesn’t need to slow down for Tails or Amy or any of his other friends, but he does for Chris, and that isn’t fun to watch.

Chris just doesn’t have a place in the story, and forcing it makes him feel like a nuisance more than a likable character.

4) He became the show.

This is the big one. Sure, Chris isn’t a good character for the show he’s in, but that wouldn’t be such a big deal if he weren’t made so important so constantly by the narrative.

Nearly everything that happens in the show has something to do with Chris even when it doesn’t need to; he tags along on adventures he can’t possibly help with, he’s always given input on decisions that have very little to do with him, and he ends up causing way more conflicts than he resolves. The result of this is that, wherever he is and whatever he’s doing, he feels shoved in. The viewer simply can’t get a break from Chris Thorndyke, the stand-in, while characters that are meant to draw their attention, like Knuckles (in particular), get shunted to the side and used only sparingly.

While Chris has all the traits and makeup of a side character (and maybe even an alright side character at points), the way he’s presented is as not only a main character, but THE main character, maybe even more than Sonic! This is despite all of the problems mentioned earlier and the more general fact that he just doesn’t really fit in with the rest of the cast.

For all intents and purposes, Chris Thorndyke is Sonic X, and as a result, Sonic X sometimes feels forced and pointless.

Now, I personally really like Sonic X, actually! It has a lot of things that I absolutely adore, like the characterizations of most of the Sonic characters and the occasionally very interesting attempts at telling original stories that are still based on the setting and characters that the gameverse set up. But still, it has a lot of problems, and a lot of those problems were either directly or indirectly caused by the unnecessary inclusion of Chris’s character.

Chris as a character isn’t terrible; he’s just a kid. The Sonic series has a lot of kids, some of which do much less than Chris does. Nonetheless, the way he was integrated into the show was just so messy, pointless, and ultimately harmful to the story as a whole that I can’t help but think the show could have been much better without him.

(He was perfectly fine in the Metarex saga, though! Again, they managed to fix most of this for the last season. That’s good, at least.)

#sonic the hedgehog #hot take #chris #shows #sonic x

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whatthefuuuuuuccckkkk · 4 years

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okay this is my last post I know I'm being very annoying and I hate to clog the tag but I just have to scream into the void for a while if you disagree or you're annoyed with me please just scroll past this rant thank you

- the hitman plot. god. we all hate that shit. what I realllllly hate is how long and drawn out it is. should've been one episode tops, like when dean tried it. I want to say, that obviously it's not gonna work bcz it would be stupid to kill off the character carrying the entire show, but at this point maybe they are gonna kill him off??? idfk. maybe it's a punishment for all the people (everyone) who like him. truthfully the whole "murder is our only way out of this" attitude is disappointing and seemingly out of character for all of the girls. Boomer attacked annie and they let him fuckin live. They knew he was a fuckin rapist piece of shit, and a regular piece of shit too, but couldn't kill someone. But apparently killing someone beth, at one point, felt some typa way about...smh..apparently that is A ok and they don't even explore other options or feel the least bit guilty?? even when they "mourned" boomer it was more about marion than him. But rio and his whole ass innocent child are not a thought at all??? Wild. Truly. Also....what do they think will happen?? If I were a gang leader's right hand the first person I would check upon seeing my boss get murdered would probably be the person who tried to murder him last time lmao. Do they really think they would get away with it? Even if they didnt get caught, they wouldnt be off the hook. Surely mick would just keep things going, with even less leeway. And what happens when their illegal activities bite them in the ass when Rio is gone? Who are they gonna blame everything on? Who is gonna clean up their mess? No one. And this whole "I'm not doing it, wait yes I am, wait no I'm not, wait I'm gonna do it" thing the hitman is doing is...not it. I'm assuming were gonna get an explanation about how he knew that this was a crime of passion (lol)

-beth beth beth......you know there is a theory floating around that she has serious ptsd and I actually would love to see that explored but that shit ain't happening lol. I'm tired of feeling like I'm analyzing her character. At what point is it too much. She's hard to read but I think it has crossed the line over complex and ventured into poor characterization. She's gotten chances and chances and I'm tired. And dean. God I'm tired. I feel like all season I've been watching beth do the same thing, play good wifey, risk her (and Annie's and Ruby's) life by doing stupid shit..and that's basically it. Face some fckn consequences for your actions please. Take some responsibility. I feel like the show is showing us inklings of...something...bubbling underneath the surface but it's not our job to fill in the blanks or interpret shit. I do not work for nbc. I'm not getting paid for this. What is this girl thinking trying to get rio to invest in hot tubs (bless her calling dean an idiot. fuck this show for making him suddenly a good salesman) while trying to kill him. Does she think he dies and suddenly she owns it?? Makes zero sense. Also unpopular opinion i dont like that she caused a scene with the pool ball. Like....of course he isnt listening to you....you shot him...3 times....then stole from him....and have been screwing him over repeatedly.

-dean just....no. I understand that beth has so much going on in her life right now that divorce isn't exactly on her mind and dean is the last trace she has left of a normal life so shes holding onto it for dear life.....actually no. I do not know if any of that is actually true or if I'm just interpreting wrong. Because the subtext and editing and parallels and all that would be fine and dandy but not when that's all the show is at this point. If dean cheating yet again is not gonna make beth leave him, nothing will. I want his screentime to be 30 seconds and nothing more.

-im just not invested in the boland children. Annie and ruby have both struggled real bad, but beth, the one in the deepest, has 4 children who are somehow unaffected by this?? Not to mention the whole divorce, wait never mind, oh look a gang leader hanging out with mommy again, oh look our house is empty, type stuff happening. Beth's kids should be going through it but for some reason they arent? Maybe it's because child labor laws or something lol.

- rio. At this point I'm rooting for him for than anything. But I genuinely do not know why he hasnt killed beth. She's proven herself to be more of a liability than an asset and I just cannot understand why he hasnt killed her. Unless it's the whole "feelings" route, which wouldve made him look dumb, but made sense based on what we were given. This is actually the direction I thought the season was going but now it just seems like he is a bad businessman lol. Obviously she cant die for the sake of the show, but its like they didnt even try to make it make sense. He definitely knows about the hitman btw. I dont really blame him for anything he's done with beth so far. He robbed her in retaliation. He had to cut her off when she started acting shady. 🤷‍♀️ he let's her get away with too much tbh. It's a shame that this character isnt being utilized. Its like they are banking on this mysterious aura to keep working, but we are 3 seasons in and it's a little old now. I personally think that they just don't know what to do with him now. Also can I point out how dumb he looks showing beth that he is doing business at the carwash, why would he give her more information than she needs when he is suspicious of her? I cant tell if I was happy with how unphased he looked about her outburst or if I wish he checked her.

-mick. Did his side plot with beth die? How does it seem like this show simultaneously moves through plots every episode but is also stuck in the same one for the entire season? I also think mick is not being utilized. As funny as it is for him to be a built in 3rd wheel all the time, they could do so much more. Like can you imagine if beth mouthed off or fucked up and mick checked her? The possible ways a plot like that could go...untapped potential.

-ruby. Ah...I remember when I thought her and stan's fight was dragging for too long. Miss those days. See even tho ruby and stan seem to have the same issue over and over it's not the same story. Pen cap, new job, sarah stealing, all the same fight, but with different stories. And it really seems like Ruby's always going through it but I appreciate the variety. Stan's storyline has been interesting but I dont know how much it relates to the central plot. Sarah....great. that actress is so talented and even tho shes an attitude machine (what preteen is not) i just love her scenes. Harry seems to be missing a lot. The hills are the only part I seem to enjoy anymore. Really wish the show would explore why ruby seems to be the one who keeps getting caught up with the law...I wonder what it could be....what is different about her..hm...

- annie. Backtracked so much. Wish she had a single plot that didnt revolve around men. Now shes trying to cheat on her GED. Where's the snark? Where's the wit? It seems like all she is now is a codependent insecure mess. And I'm tired of this fuckass therapist. I thought her study montage was gonna end in a "she didnt need anyone but family (:" lesson but it did not for whatever reason. I thought by bringing a therapist into the show it was gonna give us more of a look at Annie's and Beth's upbringing and relationship. Or help annie work through her issues, the boomer thing too. Or maybe lead to Beth's ptsd diagnosis. Therapy could've helped move the plot forward or help the characters grow, but it's doing the opposite of that. If its not contributing to the main plot, what is its purpose? To give annie yet another terrible love interest?

To summarize....I hate it here.

#nbc good girls #good girls nbc #im just venting #really don't want to turn this into a debate #ive been awake for 24 hours and drinking for 20 of those

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paunchsalazar · 5 years

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hey!! bro ur my number #1 source for lupin III content so can I ask like how in the hell I go about watching all the series / movies / etc for it in order??? I’m really pumped for the live action so I wanna at least dip into all the other stuff. thanking ya kindly //tips hat

hello!!! what an honor!! oh my… ok I’m so sorry in advance… I’ve gotten a few similar asks and I started writing out a list and it was getting over 1500 words long so I had to try to chill out…so…

LUPIN III CRASH COURSE

I’m sorry that this is so long.. and consider I cut it down! but here is my intro because I know this franchise is huge and confusing!! (I’ve had multiple instances of friends being like ‘I tried to find that Lupin thing you like but I could only find the third one?’)

I kind of liken it to Scooby Doo? it stretches some 60 years and has been handled by many different writers, directors, and animators across very different eras? most important to know! the order doesn’t really matter and things aren’t really sequential (save for where the three most recent shows) so you can jump in and explore whatever seems compelling! it’s overwhelming because there is so much but also nice because there’s something for everybody! if you like fun and pure, edgy, etc. etc.

feel free to disregard everything coming… I will say my personal priority order is

- Castle of Cagliostro

- some episode of part 2

- part IV, ideally all of it! there’s filler but it’s hard to know which ones

- part I (or some episodes of it? up to you!)

- Fuma Conspiracy

- part V

- part III (it’s great too!! just not as sequential as IV and V)

- First Contact… truly indulgent but its so cute!

(below I broke down a little about each and my favorite episodes, where to find them, etc. and there’s so much more but just doing everything below is a whole lot)

TV (All the shows except for The Woman Called Fujiko Mine are on Crunchyroll!)

Part 1 (1971) - crunchyroll!

The beginnings kind of a weird feeling because the first half was directed with one vision vs. the second half being co-directed by Takahata and Miyazaki, there’s a shift in Lupin’s personality and most significantly they sought to shed his ‘sense of apathy’ and make him more of a hero? something that’s echoed later on! honestly, I don’t think the transition is as dramatic as some people find it? but it does shift across the episodes and end on a sweet note!

truly they all have something to enjoy but I made note of

episodes 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 18, 19, 23

for some reason? really really suggest watching the last episode! but get a bit of the first and second half beforehand!

Part II/Red Jacket (1977-80) - 155 episodes - on crunchyroll dubbed and subbed

there are a lot so I tried to narrow it down to a few of my favorites/ particularly noteworthy ones? I bolded my absolute favorites! I’m sure I missed a few but save for a few two-episode arcs you can jump in anywhere and it’ll be fine.

episodes 1-79 are dubbed on Crunchyroll! In my personal opinion the script makes it worth it!! there are a bunch of non-dubbed episodes anyway if you want to get a feel for both

(these episode titles are often hilarious, misleading, and/or horribly embarrassing?)

1 - ‘The Return of Lupin the Third’ - just a good starting point!

5 - ‘Will the Leaning Tower of Pisa Be Standing?’

6 - ‘Tutankhamen’s 3,000-Year-Old Curse’

7 - ‘Venetian Super Express’ - I want to say this is a cute little road trip episode? it’s been so long

9 - ‘Steal the FIle M123’ - this dub… madness. very strange Christopher Walken impression for absolutely no reason?

10 - ‘Bet on the Monaco Grand Prix’

15 - ‘Crude Reproduction, Perfect Frame’ - Lupin keeps committing strange and uncharacteristic crimes, but he has no memory of doing so!

29 - ‘Fly Me to the Moon’ - Lupin has some mysterious Levitation Technique and everyone is after it

32 - ‘Lupin the Interred’ A famed hitman is after Lupin!

34 - ‘But Your Brother Was Such A Nice Guy’ - this episode is one of the zaniest ones and that’s saying a lot… Vampires? Jesus? Really really funny moments though especially in the dub

42 - ‘Cruisin’ in Drag’ Lupin infiltrates the ship of a wealthy bachelor disguised as a woman

45 - ‘Diamonds and Minx’ kind of a mess of people stealing from each other?

46 - ‘The Island of Dr. Derange’

57 - ‘Alter-Ego Maniac’ - Inspector Zenigata goes criminal

62 - ‘Church of the Poison Mind’ - Jigen and Goemon stumble into a religious cult

69 - ‘Zenigata Getcha Into My Life’ - this title is awful but this episode is great.

78 - ‘Ice, Robot’ - an inventor has made a machine that can cry diamonds!

79 - ‘Baton Death March’

81 - ‘Fujiko, Men are a Sorry Lot!” - Fujiko gets engaged to a Prince, the rest of the gang goes after the monarchy’s Golden Bell

96 - ‘Lupin’s Gourmet World’ tbh this is a vore episode but there are some great gang moments here and a really fun third act

99 - ‘Fighting Jigen’ - first anime episode (I think like in history? but I could’ve misread) in stereo! And I believe the first to air of the TMS staff’s work, you can tell because the style shifts to a more Miyazaki/Cagliostro look and this will keep happening for the rest of the show

101 - ‘Fervent Love at Versailles’ - a crossover episode with Rose of Versailles!

103 - ‘The Wolf Looked at an Angel’ - Goemon is an angel I can say little else

104 - ‘The Most Dangerous Golden Bed’ - debut of perhaps the best opening! I love this episode?? so much?

112 - ‘Danger! Goemon’

122 - ‘An Unusual End to an Expedition for Napoleon’s Treasure’

143 - ‘The Miami Bank’

145 - ‘Wings of Death: Albatross’ - ah yes, one of the famed Miyazaki-directed episode, truly so worth it

151 - ‘To Arrest Lupin, the Mission at the Highway’ - another not exactly Miyazaki episode but a lot of the people he trained? They depart from the part 2 style(s) again but its a good bit of fun all around! Really lovely character animation

152 - ‘Jigen and the Hatless Pistol’ - Jigen loses his hat and thus his ability to shoot

155 - ‘Thieves Love the Peace/Farewell, Dear Lupin’ - the finale episode! Miyazaki-directed as well, and just beautiful

Part III (1984) - 50 episodes - crunchyroll!

I’m still very early in this one so I can’t say much yet! But it gets a bad rep? Perhaps for being more inconsistent stylistically and a bit on the zanier end! But I really like it!! these drawings are such a blast! I think each bit has its merits and this one is no exception. Plus with all their freedom animation-wise they can do a lot of fun stuff!

The Woman Called Fujiko Mine (2012) - 13 episodes - on kissanime for certain and I think animetake?

this is the most dramatic departure from the rest of the shows/films/specials. Fujiko Mine is the star of this part! It definitely has less obviously plot-important episodes but it’s one narrative from start to finish. I must note that it’s by far Lupin’s edgiest, I think it’d be safe to deem this part as R-Rated. There’s sex, violence, sexual violence, abuse, bodily mutilation, obsession… a gay character who gets a pretty tragic fate (at first I was excited by the very existence of an LGBT+ character but he really goes through the wringer and never gets a resolution.. I don’t want to spoil). This is probably Lupin at his ickiest? I do like Jigen’s personality here! And his dynamic with Fujiko, but it’s a lot more disjointed than the other parts. She meets each of them separately and towards the end, Lupin and Jigen interact more but there’s barely a time when they’re all together. That’s not meant to be a deterrent but personally, I’m a sucker for their friendship and love them as a group so it’s a bit of a bummer. Sequential plot-wise though! This one is definitely captivating, a bit disturbing, and there is a plot-twist that really got me. The villain design is really cool too!

Part IV (2015) - 26 episodes - on crunchyroll, also dubbed on Funimation

This part is narrative-based and sequential! It still has some more standalone episodes but there’s definitely an overarching story throughout! I think they’re all worth watching and might leave little important bits that’ll be confusing later on. Essentially this part takes place in Italy for the most part and starts with Lupin getting married to a multi-millionaire heiress/model/celebrity who wants to get into the thief business. This one feels like a good combination of old and new, it’s not quite as silly as the earlier parts can be, but it’s full of nostalgia while still feeling original. I really had a good time!

This dub isn’t bad but!! It comes with a different opening and soundtrack, I guess Lupin’s pretty big in Italy and perhaps there were licensing issues? I’m not sure? But it’s a bit of a bummer to be without the Yuji Ohno soundtrack. The alternate opening feels more like a collection of stills and footage found throughout the show? It’s not horrible, just different! Regardless, the Part IV Japanese OP (vs. the Italian/US one) is worth a watch!

Part V (2018, airing on Adult Swim right now, summer 2019!) - 23 episodes

I’m actually not done with this part but its good fun! more directly tied to part iv then the others are to each other. It’s more sequential as well with a few sub-arcs and since it fell on the franchise’s anniversary it has callback episodes with Lupin in various jackets in various tones. Interesting Lupin characterization here… he seems… sadder, wistful? and we get hints of Lupin lore! Lots of fanservice but… I love it! I still think they could’ve pushed it more? it feels somehow more reserved than part IV in some ways, which is already different from the 70s and 80s, but it’s got a lot of lovely moments!!

Films/TV Specials

From 1989 to 2011 they had a special every year!! So much!

Castle of Cagliostro (1979) - Available on Netflix!

perhaps the best-known piece of media in the Lupin franchise? And rightly so. This film is Hayao Miyazaki’s directing debut and a blast from start to finish! This characterization of Lupin is definitely Miyazaki’s more than Monkey Punch’s but that seems to be the strange nature of the Lupin franchise! I could really go on forever… please watch it!

The Fuma Conspiracy (1987) -

perhaps harder to find, but it’s on Kissanime! Goemon is getting married but before the ceremony is over the bride is taken by the Fuma ninja clan and the gang helps him to get her back as well as learn the story of a family heirloom? Really great stuff from everybody! Adorable Zenigata, the fluffiest and most handsome Goemon, cute Jigen, Fujiko, and Lupin interactions, a really really incredible car chase! Even with Cagliostro’s fame, this one has got some serious pizzazz

Episode 0: The First Contact (2002) - on Kissanime as well!

A journalist asks Jigen how he met Lupin III, this is probably my favorite TV special? And features one of my favorite opening scenes in the whole franchise. The instrumental!! Perhaps each member of the gang at their purest, whatever that means, really great moments between everybody and peak Lupin and Jigen meeting and somehow signing up to be life partners

#oh my god #i'm so sorry #please.. feel free to ignore this #lupin #lupin the third #lupin iii #lupin the 3rd #diggitydamnsebastianstan

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dogcopter · 4 years

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Rose is Liveblog 2020: Steven Universe Future

Rose is Liveblog 2020 Masterlist

Lion hasn’t shown up much yet in Future, but if he’s Rose that’ll likely be the business of an episode or two down the road.

Rose Buds

Lion has a cameo at the very end. It plays some suspensful music that sounds like a leitmotif I don’t recognize (I’m not good at the music but I know there’s lore involved), shows the empty space where the portrait was:

Note it was next to Cat Steven’s, who Lion has been shown napping with a few times.

Then a pic of Steven in bed with Lion sleeping at the foot.

Steven does mention him earlier when talking to the Roses, but he doesn’t appear before that. End of video. I also have some non-Lion (or Lion adjacent really) meta for you since this is a Rose lore episode.

I’ll happily go either way on her, but let’s talk Shy Rose.

A meta take/theory on this episode: If the portrait being gone has more than one meaning, maybe Rose's astral projection state has changed too? Thought: Rose no longer possessing Lion? Ergo Rose really is Shy Rose after all?

Edit: I believe this now, based on thoughts from this liveblog. Shy Rose is Rose Theory Post here

It would be interesting if she is - like she’d made herself a Rose Quartz gem? (Ethically I would prefer if Rose had like made an “empty” gemstone and is not hijacking another living thinking gem’s body for her own purposes, so we’ll see what comes of her. Is that even possible?) She did want to fit right in and play with the Amethysts. It’s not impossible she tried to find another way to do that while making a kindergarten of Rose Quartzes for her cover story. Or maybe the others were part of the process of finding the right appearance. After all, she’s the only one we’ve seen who looks exactly like Pearl’s OC - there aren’t even any others with curly hair. And the Crystal Gem Rose would be nervous to meet Steven, startled to see the others, concerned about Pearl, concerned about Steven, & she would have sworn she “wouldn’t talk about this”. All consistent, it’s still possible. If Shy Rose isn’t Rose, she’s just an emotionally intelligent stranger who’s hyper-aware of how much she looks like Rose. If she is Rose, this is like...idk...Rose nervously in the secret OC body, maybe wanting to talk to him, maybe playing it safe first to see how they react, weighing the idea of yet another false life...maybe scared to do it or not sure how. This would be a good setup for Steven corrupting honestly, if that’s gonna happen, or at least whatever mom issues-induced total meltdown Future has been building to. Yeah I still buy it. And then this:

Please don't leave like this! I'm really sorry. It's not like I don't like you or don't want you here. It's just that you look so much like her; like my Mom. I thought I was ready to move on and not have her hanging over me anymore, but I can barely be in a room with you because I still feel all twisted up about her.

Since Steven specifically mentions her appearance is triggering, both about Shy Rose personally and not the others, maybe that makes her hesitate to tell him the truth further. And he says he’s trying to put his mom behind him.

Shy Rose looks down for a second when he says he feels all twisted up about her. In this lighting, her coloration is more like Rose’s, too. Could be a guilty conscience. Steven also says something important if this is a Lion/Rose hearing about Steven’s struggles moment:

I've been pretending that I'm fine because it's not your fault, but I'm not fine.

he admits he’s not ok. He still hasn’t done this to the Crystal Gems as of Prickly Pair, even though it’s clear, but he did tell the Roses. And if this is Rose, then some of his problems are actually her fault.

Ofc what Shy Rose says at the end seems to indicate she’s not Rose:

Your mom created us too, and got us all bubbled, just for being Rose Quartzes.

At the same time... not only is that a true statement, if she’s Rose, both talking about her own former identity with scorn & being mad at Rose Quartz is still characterization consistent with Rose Quartz; she was down on herself in We Need to Talk and during the rebellion she told gems like Garnet and Bismuth stories about how terrible Pink Diamond was... so ok, I’ll bite. It would add a layer to all her reactions in the ep if that’s so. I’d love if Shy Rose is in fact her own person and showed up again so we could see another side to her though, because looking like Rose is an interesting dilemma.

#rose is liveblog 2020 #steven universe theory #steven universe

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travllingbunny · 5 years

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The 100 rewatch: 4x08 God Complex

Together with 4x07 Gimme Shelter, this is one of my top 5 episodes of season 4. What I’ve always loved most about season 4 is the way that having an unavoidable natural catastrophe as the Big Bad made it completely different than any other season of the show, and gave it that sense of desperation, bringing up the best and the worst in people. It’s the only season where I can really say that, most of the time, there were no good choices – characters were left to choose whatever they thought was the best of the two or more terrible options.

This episode was basically about three different approaches to the problem of Praimfaya – two attempts to find salvation: 1) through experiments with Nightblood, which could save everybody, but which led to some uncomfortable, morally ambiguous moments, and 2) through the search for the Second Dawn bunker that could not save everyone, but could certainly save quite a few people; while some people, like Jasper, were taking the third option of - not to trying to survive at all.

The biggest and most intense part of this episode was the drama in Becca’s lab, where a group of people were struggling with the issue of whether to conduct unwilling human experiments and potentially murder someone that way – knowing that the stakes were the survival of the human race and that, if they don’t find the solution through these experiments, everyone will die in less than two weeks. (Reminder: this is after Arkadia has been wrecked and cannot be used for shelter, and before Jaha manages to find the bunker. As far as the people in Becca’s lab knew, the Nightblood solution was the only way to prevent the extinction of the human race.)

This is a really serious and compelling moral dilemma. The characters present in Becca’s lab reacted in a number of different ways, and it’s hard to call any of them villainous or evil over it, as all the responses were understandable. However, in this case, there was one morally right choice: volunteer to be the test subject and risk your own life for the benefit of saving everybody. And just 1 (one) person did that: one Clarke Griffin. Which I could see coming when I watched this episode the first time, because this is what Clarke is like, ready to take responsibility and risk or potentially sacrifice her life, when saving everyone is at stake. The episode drags it out, hiding Clarke’s intentions till the last moment (though I’m sure she made her mind quite some time before she injected herself – around the time when she promised Murphy that Emori would be fine), but the fact that the “twist” was not a surprise to me, was not a bad thing at all: what matters is that characters act in character and that the story makes sense, and when you can predict it based on characterizations, it is actually satisfying to see the story unfold and stay true to who the characters are.

But this is also one of the examples of how much my outlook has changed since I first watched season 4 (even though that was less than a year ago) – because I have seen how it all turns out, and probably even more so, because of the way this episode has been referenced in season 6 (specifically, by Murphy). When I watched this the first time, Somehow, since the only references to what happens here were through Murphy’s weirdly selective memory, 4x08 has become all about how Clarke Griffin is such a baaad guy, ya all. Evil Clarke wanted to put Emori in the oven! Well, actually, a bunch of people (Clarke, Abby, Jackson, Miller, Roan, and Raven, who was complaining but not doing anything to stop it) were planning to put Emori in the oven, but just one (1) of them tried to take Emori’s place – yep, it was Clarke, after she listened to Murphy desperately pleading for Emori to be spared, and was moved by his love for her.

But, hey, details. Just like it’s a minor detail that Emori had previously (in 4x07) framed a random thief as a monster just to get him experimented on instead of her – and Murphy was very impressed by that as a “survivor’s move”. He likes to complain about evil Clarke treating people as “disposable”, but it only bothers him if it’s him or his girlfriend, while he himself treats people as disposable to a much higher degree – when it’s a random dude, rather than Murphy’s girlfriend.

Yes. I’m bitter and snarky about this, thanks to certain character behaviors in season 6 and certain fandom responses. I was sympathetic to Murphy and Emori in this episode, and to everyone involved, and the first time I watched this episode, I was mostly worried about Emori and scared that our protagonists, in particular Clarke – because she is my favorite character – would not go too far in their ruthlessness under the motto “End justifies the means”. Even though the end was, in this case, saving the human race from extinction that was coming in ten days. I was uncomfortable with the whole “oh, no – they are almost like the Mountain Men now!” parallel. Now I feel like rolling my eyes and pointing: no, they weren’t like the Mountain Men – because they were trying to save everyone, and if they didn’t find the solution, everyone, including Emori and Murphy, was going to die in ten days. (That’s what being in the fandom that takes moral grayness way too literally does to you. After seeing “there are no good guys, Clarke is as bad as the Mountain Men/Primes/Josephine” one too many times, I’ve had enough of the moral relativism and I prefer to point out that these parallels doesn’t mean that those completely different situations should be treated as the same.) The first time, I liked Raven pointing out the parallels, because I saw it as a warning: let’s try not to be the bad guys. But season 6 Raven has made me see season 4 Raven in a harsher light, too – now I can’t help but see it as one of the instances of her criticizing how immoral something is, while participating in it or not doing anything to stop it, and while not offering any other alternative options.

I was rooting for Clarke to do the right thing, and was happy when she did it, because of what it meant for her character. People kept telling her that she was the leader and had to make the tough decision. (Because everyone always keeps giving Clarke all the credit or all the blame, even though a bunch of people were involved in what was done. In this case, Roan was the most in favor and the first to suggest testing Emori, while Abby and Jackson were most directly conducting the experiments, and while Clarke was seen as the decision-maker, it’s not like she had the power on her own to force anyone to do this or that, if they had refused to. Actually, Miller and Roan were the ones physically restraining and forcing people – Emori, Luna, Murphy.) She told herself that “she bears it so they don’t have to”, But she interpreted that differently – not to mean deciding to risk or sacrifice others as “disposable”, but to risk or potentially sacrifice her own life. Which is really the old school, original view of what being a leader/ruler is: leaders and kings were originally those who led armies, fought on the frontlines, and, in some ancient cultures, were even literally sacrificed to the gods – before the of the ruler or leader changed to that of a person who remains safe and sends others to risk their lives to fight their battles.

…And then I was shocked by what Abby did right afterwards, smashing the machine, though I could understand why. When Abby told Clarke she couldn’t let her die, the camera focused on Emori, who was understandably thinking “So, you really thought the machine would kill me and you still wanted to test me?” But, to Abby’s defense, she freaked out because she had seen a vision of Clarke covered in radiation burns.

The first time I watched season 4, I still didn’t take Praimfaya as seriously. You keep waiting for some solution that would save most of the people – and things just got worse, all the solutions kept falling apart, except for the bunker – which presented a bunch of problems in itself. The first time, I was worried about Clarke losing so much of herself by focusing on the Big Picture. Now I like and relate to her even more than before, knowing how season 4 turns out – because if a natural disaster that’s about to wipe out the entire human race is not a reason to focus on the Big Picture, what is? Abby’s emotional reaction is human and understandable – similar to Murphy’s over Emori – but it is still a fact that the Nightblood solution worked, and that, if not everyone, than many more/most people could have been saved if they had tested Clarke and found out that the solution worked. But that would have jettisoned the entire plot of the finale and season 5. No need for the bunker, or going into space, no Conclave, no Osleya or Blodreina, no Spacekru, no horrors of the bunker, no single mom Clarke all alone with Madi, etc. Everyone would have survived and settled in Eden. It’s a bit off how rarely people mention this – even now that hating on Abby is such a popular sport, no one mentions the fact that she basically doomed thousands of people to die because she was worried about her daughter dying. It’s odd that we never see Abby explicitly feeling guilty over that, instead of just conducting experiments or suggesting cannibalism.

Are the sins of doing ruthless but necessary things for the survival of the group considered less forgivable, at least when women are concerned, than the sins of dooming a lot of people to death by prioritizing your child? Abby certainly seems to think so. She repeated Kane’s old line: “First we survive, then we get our humanity back” to Raven, and then felt so guilty over the experiments she conducted, that she wanted to die in Praimfaya and asked Kane to leave her outside. But even in season 5, she was arguing to Clarke that throwing everyone under the bus for your daughter is right and reinforcing Clarke’s decision. And in season 6, she is convinced that saving Kane is worth doing inhumane things. As if she, since Jake’s death, has decided she would rather do horrible things to save her loved ones at the expense of other people, than risk/sacrifice her loved ones for the common good, which is what she, sort of, did with her husband.

There’s also the fact that, if Clarke had been more selfish and less willing to risk and sacrifice herself instead of others – if she had gone through with it and let Emori be tested, Abby wouldn’t have smashed the machine, they would have found out that the Nightblood solution worked, and saved everyone. But I don’t know how to feel about that, except to see it as a painful irony.

While the plot A found and then threw away a solution to save people, plot B came up with some hope as Jaha managed to find the real Second Dawn bunker, after hearing the lines from the Grounder prayer “From the ashes, we will rise” and recognizing the motto of the Second Dawn. Jaha was, in a way, uniquely qualified to realize that there is another bunker, and that the one they found was just a red herring to keep the real one from being overrun, since, by his admission, he figured it out because that’s what he himself would do. Jaha has never had a problem with treating people as disposable and focusing on the Big Picture while sacrificing some individual lives.

It should be noted that Jaha didn’t find the bunker on his own, but that Monty, Kane, Gaia and Indra played crucial roles as well. (So much for the argument that Jaha had the right to steal and keep the bunker in 4x10/11 because he found it. He was going to leave all of those other people outside.) Gaia helped compare and decipher the symbols, and Monty was the one who managed to find a way in, Kane used Roan’s symbol to get Azgeda warriors to let them through the temple where the bunker was in the first place (though Indra then shot them anyway), and Indra helped by ordering Trikru warriors to leave the tower to Azgeda and focus on defending the temple instead.

If there is a way to make any sense out of the Grounder culture and religion, it is through this major revelation about the role of the Second Dawn cult. It never made sense that these descendants of regular 21st century people from USA/Canada somehow forgot all technology (even with memories of a top scientist on a computer chip their leaders had in their heads), developed a pidgin language, a medieval-like warrior culture, a love of fake tans and a culture-appropriation-mishmash fashion sense, in less than a century. But if these people were descendants of members of a Doomsday cult whose members hated technology and wanted to cosplay Game of Thrones? Well, that explains a lot.

The C plot was about the group of people back in Arkadia who chose not to fight to survive Praimfaya, but to spend the last days before it having the party of their lives. (And to eventually kill themselves, going out on their own terms, before Praimfaya has a chance to kill them – but we only find that out in later episodes.) Aside from Jasper, that was also Harper, and Riley and Bree.

Harper’s depressed state and lack of will to live was becoming clear with the way she acted when Monty said goodbye to her. She even let out that she wasn’t expecting him to come back (saying “If you come back”) – maybe because she really didn’t think she was worth it?

Bellamy was worried about Jasper – who tried and eventually got him to join their party (with dancing, drinking, and drugs – aka jobi nuts), throwing Bellamy’s own line from early season 1 at him: “Whatever the hell we want… Really mean it this time”. Bellamy decided to relax and let go, and flirted with (and possibly had a one-night stand off-screen?) with Bree, his old friend with benefits from the threesome days of early season 1, after she had approached him and hit on him. (Judge for yourself if the hairstyling department intentionally gave Bree a similar haircut as Clarke’s, and if that was meant to mean something.) But this is a two-part plot that only gets resolved in the next episode, when Bellamy will change his attitude after learning that there is, after all, some salvation in the form of the bunker.

Timeline: This episode starts exactly where the previous left off, which means that it’s about two weeks since the start of season 4. But Clarke and Kane are now saying that the death wave is coming in 10 days. This means that, not only was ALIE’s initial calculation that the death wave was coming in 6 months wrong, but so is Raven’s calculation from 2x03 (which took place 10 days from the start of season 4) that the death wave would come in two months. There can’t be more than 4-5 days since 4x03, based on what was going on, so the new calculation must have been made in the meantime. This means that the death wave would actually come, according to these newest predictions, 20 days from the beginning of season 4/end of season 3. Unless it comes even faster… As far as I remember, episodes 4x09-4x13 happened over a short period of time.

Maybe the writers miscalculated how much season 4 would actually last and ended up writing everything happening much faster – just as it was in every other season. In any case, this means that the timeline of seasons 1-4 is even more compressed than I thought, because, as of 4x08, it’s been a little less than six months from the Pilot. I’ll do the full calculation when I get to 4x13.

Body count:

The thief from the Rock Line clan, aka fake “Baylis”, in the radiation chamber

An unknown number of people died from the black rain in Polis (this technically happened during the timeline of the previous episode)

A number of Azgeda warriors were shot by Indra (which is another instance where a major supporting character simply goes and murders a bunch of enemy warriors while they were not posing a danger, like Roan did to Trikru warriors in 4x04, but no one cares or has much of a problem with that, in the show or the fandom… What a contrast to Bellamy participating in something similar in season 3 and then feeling guilty forever and getting endlessly called “Genocide King” and whatnot in the fandom…)

A number of Azgeda and Trikru warriors probably died in the fighting outside the temple

Rating: 9/10

#the 100 #the 100 rewatch #the 100 season 4 #god complex #the 100 4x08 #clarke griffin #abby griffin #thelonius jaha #jasper jordan #bellamy blake

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marlborodean · 3 years

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spn quotes: season one

i’m collecting a bunch of quotes from the show! favorite lines, good points of characterization, etc. all organized by episode and character, and with timestamps!

w/ncest shippers get lost

season two.

1. PILOT

Dean—

[Sam: So we kill everything we can find.] Save a lot of people doing it, too. (08:51)

I can’t do this alone. [Sam: Yes, you can.] Yeah. Well, I don’t want to. (09:30)

[Officer: So. Fake U.S. Marshal, fake credit cards. You got anything that’s real?] My boobs. (28:50)

Sam—

When I told Dad I was scared of the thing in my closet, he gave me a .45. [Dean: What was he supposed to do?] I was 9 years old. He was supposed to say, “Don’t be afraid of the dark.” (08:30)

You think Mom would’ve wanted this for us? (08:58)

We were raised like warriors. (09:06)

[Dean: Are you just gonna live some normal, apple-pie life? Is that it?] No, not normal. Safe. [And that’s why you ran away.] I was just going to college. It was Dad who said if I was gonna go, I should stay gone. (09:09)

[Dean: You’re really serious about this, aren’t you? You think you’re just gonna become some lawyer, marry your girl?] Maybe. Why not? [Does Jessica know the truth about you? I mean, does she know about the things you’ve done?] No, and she’s not ever going to know. [Well, that’s healthy. You can pretend all you want, Sammy, but sooner or later you’re gonna have to face up to who you really are.] And who is that? [One of us.] No. I’m not like you. This is not going to be my life. (22:45)

If it weren’t for pictures, I wouldn’t even know what Mom looks like. What difference would it make? Even if we do find the thing that killed her, Mom’s gone, and she isn’t coming back. (23:17)

2. W*ND*G* ( x )

Dean—

Her brother’s missing, Sam. She’s not just gonna sit this out. (14:55)

[Hailey: And you’re hiking out in biker boots and jeans?] Well, sweetheart, I don’t do shorts. (15:54)

I’m supposed to be the belligerent one, remember? (25:13)

The way I see it, Dad’s given us a job to do, and I intend to do it. (26:31)

All that anger, you can’t keep it burning over the long haul. It’s gonna kill you. You gotta have patience, man. [Sam: How do you do it? How does Dad do it?] Well, for one, them. I mean, I figure our family’s so screwed to hell, maybe we can help some others. It makes things a little bit more bearable. And I’ll tell you what else helps. Killing as many evil sons of bitches as I possibly can. (27:05)

Sam—

[Dean: No, you’re not fine. You’re like a powder keg, man. It’s not like you.] (25:06)

3. DEAD IN THE WATER

Dean—

You don’t think I want to find Dad as much as you do? [Sam: Yeah, I know you do, it’s just—] I’m the one that’s been with him every single day for the past two years while you’ve been off to college going to pep rallies. We will find Dad, but until then, we’re gonna kill everything bad between here and there, okay? (04:09)

Well, maybe you don’t think anyone will listen to you, or... or believe you. I want you to know that I will. (11:58)

You’re scared. It’s okay. I understand. See, when I was your age, I saw something real bad happen to my mom, and I was scared, too. I didn’t feel like talking, just like you. But see, my mom—I know she wanted me to be brave. I think about that everyday. And I do my best to be brave. (20:14)

What if we missed something? What if more people get hurt? [Sam: But why would you think that?] Because Lucas was really scared. [That’s what this is about?] I just don’t want to leave town until I know the kid’s okay. (29:48)

Sam—

People don’t just disappear, Dean. Other people just stop looking for them. (03:51)

4. PHANTOM TRAVELER

Dean—

It’s your job to keep my ass alive, so I need you sharp. (05:18)

Sam—

[Dean: It’s your job to keep my ass alive, so I need you sharp.] (05:18)

[Jerry: Well, he was real proud of you, I could tell. You know, he talked about you all the time.] He did? (07:09)

Hey, hey, it’s just a little turbulence. [Sam, this place is going to crash, okay? So quit treating me like I’m friggin’ 4.] You need to calm down. [Well, I’m sorry, I can’t!] Yes, you can. [Dude. Stow the touchy-feely, self-help yoga crap. It’s not helping.] Listen, if you’re panicked, you’re wide open to demonic possession, so you need to calm yourself down right now. (30:26)

5. BLOODY MARY

Dean—

Do I look like Paris Hilton? (18:08)

Her boyfriend killing himself, that’s not really Charlie’s fault. (29:54)

Now listen to me. It wasn’t your fault. It you want to blame something, then blame the thing that killed her. Or, hell, why don’t you take a swing at me? I’m the one that dragged you away from her. [Sam: I don’t blame you.] Well, you shouldn’t blame yourself, because there’s nothing you could’ve done. (31:24)

Sam—

[Dean: Hell, why don’t you take a swing at me? I’m the one that dragged you away from her.] I don’t blame you. (31:37)

Charlie. Your boyfriend’s death, you really should try to forgive yourself. No matter what you did, you probably couldn’t have stopped it. Sometimes bad things just happen. (40:37)

6. SKIN

Dean—

He’s sure got issues with you. You got to go to college. He had to stay home. I mean, I had to stay home with Dad. You don’t think I had dreams of my own? But Dad needed me. See, deep down, I’m just jealous. You got friends, you could have a life. Me? I know I’m a freak. And sooner or later, everybody’s gonna leave me. [Sam: What are you talking about?] You left. Hell, I did everything Dad asked me to, and he ditched me, too. (24:21)

Sam—

[Rebecca: It must be lonely.] Oh, no. No, it’s not so bad. Anyway, what can I do? It’s my family. (39:02)

Misc—

Shifter: Evolution is about mutation, right? So maybe this thing was born human, but was different. Hideous and hated. Until he learned to become someone else. (27:14)

7. HOOK MAN

Dean—

I told you, you don’t have to be a college graduate to be a genius. (14:59)

[Sam: Hey, be quiet.] Me be quiet? You be quiet! (19:48)

Sam—

[Dean: You’ve been holding out on me. This college thing is awesome!] This wasn’t really my experience. [Let me guess—library, studying, straight A’s. What a geek.] (21:30)

8. BUGS

Dean—

Growing up in a place like this would freak me out. [Sam: Why?] The manicured lawns, how-was-your-day-honey? I’d blow my brains out. [There’s nothing wrong with normal.] I’d take our family over normal any day. (08:21)

[Sam: You’ll be able to get out of that house and away from your dad.] What kind of advice is that? Kid should stick with his family. (20:26)

Hey, so with that kid back there, how could you tell him to just ditch his family like that? [Sam: Just, uh, I know what the kid’s going through.] How about telling him to respect his old man? How’s that for advice? (23:20)

Matt, under no circumstances are you to tell the truth. He’ll just think you’re nuts. Tell him you have a sharp pain in your right side and you gotta go to the hospital, okay? [Matt: Yeah, okay.] Make him listen? What are you thinking? (32:44)

Sam—

Remind you of somebody? Dad? [Dean: Dad never treated us like that.] Well, Dad never treated you like that. You were perfect. He was all over my case. ...You don’t remember. [Dean: Well, maybe he had to raise his voice but sometimes you were out of line.] Right. Right, like when I said I’d rather play soccer than learn bowhunting. (11:46)

[Matt: Larry doesn’t listen to me.] Why not? [Mostly? He’s too disappointed in his freak son.] I hear ya. [Dean: You do?] Matt, how old are you? [Matt: Sixteen.] Well, don’t sweat it, ‘cause in two years something great’s gonna happen. [What?] College. You’ll be able to get out of that house and away from your dad. (20:04)

[Dean: Hey, so with that kid back there, how could you tell him to just ditch his family like that?] Just, uh, I know what the kid’s going through. [How about telling him to respect his old man? How’s that for advice?] Dean, come on. This isn’t about his old man. You think I didn’t respect Dad, that’s what this is about. [Just forget it, alright? Sorry I brought it up.] I respected him. But no matter what I did, it was never good enough. [So what are you saying, that Dad was disappointed in you?] Was? Is! Always has been. [Why would you think that?] Because I didn’t wanna bowhunt or hustle pool, because I wanted to go to school and live my life, which to our whacked-out family, made me the freak. (23:20)

Dean, you know what most dads are when their kids score a full-ride? Proud. Most dads don’t toss their kids out of the house. [Dean: I remember that fight. In fact, I seem to recall a few choice phrases coming out of your mouth.] You know, truth is, when we finally do find Dad, I don’t know if he’s even gonna wanna see me. (24:05)

9. HOME

Dean—

And then you tell me that I’ve got to go back home, especially when... [Sam: When what?] When I swore to myself that I would never go back there. (07:56)

I remember the fire, the heat. Then I carried you out the front door. [Sam: You did?] Yeah, well, you never knew that? [No.] (12:38)

I don’t know what to do. So, whatever you’re doing. if you could get here... please. I need your help, Dad. (14:45)

Sam—

[Dean: I remember the fire, the heat. Then I carried you out the front door.] You did? [Yeah, well, you never knew that?] No. (12:38)

Misc—

Missouri: All those years ago, real evil came to you. It walked this house. That kind of evil leaves wounds, and sometimes wounds get infected. (27:15)

10. ASYLUM

Dean—

[Sam: This is a job. Dad wants us to work a job.] Yeah, well, maybe we’ll meet up with him. Maybe he’s there. [Maybe he’s not. I mean, he could be sending us there by ourselves to hunt this thing.] Who cares? If he wants us there, it’s good enough for me. [This doesn’t strike you as weird? The texting, the coordinates?] Sam. Dad’s telling us to go somewhere. We’re going. (07:05)

[Sam: We deserve some answers. I mean, this is our family we’re talking about.] I understand that, Sam, but he’s given us an order. [So what, we gotta always follow Dad’s order?] Of course we do. (12:17)

[Sam: I mean, why are we even here? ‘Cause you’re following Dad’s orders like a good little soldier? ‘Cause you always do what he says without question? Are you that desperate for his approval?] (36:52)

Sam—

[Dean: We’ve got to burn Ellicott’s bones, and all this will be over, and you’ll be back to normal.] I am normal. I’m just telling you the truth for the first time. I mean, why are we even here? ‘Cause you’re following Dad’s orders like a good little soldier? ‘Cause you always do what he says without question? Are you that desperate for his approval? [This isn’t you talking.] That’s the difference between you and me. I have a mind of my own. I’m not pathetic like you. [So what are you gonna do? You gonna kill me?] You know, I am sick of doing what you tell me to do. (36:43)

11. SCARECROW

Dean—

[Sam: I don’t understand the blind faith you have in the man. I mean, it’s like you don’t even question him.] Yeah, it’s called being a good son. You’re a selfish bastard, you know that? You just do whatever you want. You don’t care what anyone thinks. (08:08)

[Sam: You know, if you’re hinting you need my help, just ask.] I’m not hinting anything. Actually, uh... I want you to know... I mean, don’t think... [Yeah. I’m sorry, too.] Sam.... You were right. You got to do your own thing. You got to live your own life. [You serious?] You’ve always known what you want, and you go after it. You stand up to Dad. I mean, you always have. Hell, I wish I.... Anyway. I admire that about you. I’m proud of you, Sammy. [I don’t even know what to say.] Say you’ll take care of yourself. (25:04)

Sam—

[Dean: Dad doesn’t want our help.] I don’t care. [He’s given us an order.] I don’t care. We don’t always have to do what he says. [Sam, Dad is asking us to work jobs, to save lives. It’s important.] Alright, I understand. Believe me, I understand. But I’m talking one week here, man, to get answers. To get revenge. [Alright, look, I know how you feel.] Do you? How old were you when Mom died, 4? Jess died six months ago. How the hell would you know how I feel? (07:25)

[Meg: I had to get away from my family.] Why? [I love my parents. And they wanted what’s best for me. They just didn’t care if I wanted it. I was supposed to be smart, but not smart enough to scare away a husband. Well, it’s just.... Because my family said so, I’m supposed to sit there and do what I was told. So I just went on my own way instead. ...I’m sorry. The things you say to people you hardly know.] No, no, it’s okay. I know how you feel. Remember that brother I mentioned before that I was road-tripping with? It’s kind of the same deal. [And that’s why you’re not riding with him anymore? ...Here’s to us. The food might be bad, and the beds might be hard, but at least we’re living our own lives and nobody else’s.] (21:11)

[Med: You’re running back to your brother? The guy you ran away from? Why, because he won’t pick up his phone? Sam, come with me to California.] I can’t. I’m sorry. [Why not?] He’s my family. (31:13)

12. FAITH

Dean—

Looks like you’re gonna leave town without me. [Sam: What are you talking about? I’m not gonna leave you here.] You better take care of that car. I swear I’ll haunt your ass. [I don’t think that’s funny.] Oh, come on, it’s a little funny. (04:44)

[Sam: Maybe it’s time to have a little faith, Dean.] You know what I got faith in? Reality—knowing what’s really going on. [How can you be a skeptic, with the things we see every day?] Exactly, we see them. We know they’re real. [But if you know evil’s out there, how can you not believe good’s out there too?] ‘Cause I’ve seen what evil does to good people. (08:10)

[Roy: I looked into your heart and you just...stood out from all the rest.] What did you see in my heart? [A young man with an important purpose. A job to do. And it isn’t finished.] (15:27)

You never should’ve brought me here. [Sam: Dean, I was just trying to save your life.] Sam, some guy is dead now because of me. (19:30)

The guy is playing God, deciding who lives and dies. That’s a monster in my book. (22:42)

[Layla: I wish you luck. I really do.] Same to you. You deserve it a lot more than me. (30:38)

[Sam: To cross a line like that, that preacher’s wife—black magic, murder. Evil.] Desperate. Her husband was dying. She would’ve done anything to save him. (31:35)

God save us from half the people who think they’re doing God’s work. (32:04)

[Sam: What’s happening to her is horrible. But what are you gonna do? Let somebody else die to save her? You said it yourself, Dean—you can’t play God.] (32:58)

Must be rough, to believe in something so much and have it disappoint you like that. (40:57)

You know, I’m not much of the praying type, but I’m gonna pray for you. [Layla: Well. There’s a miracle right there.] (42:00)

Sam—

[Dean: I’m gonna die. And you can’t stop it.] Watch me. (05:23)

[Dean: You’re not gonna let me die in peace, are you?] I’m not gonna let you die, period. (07:04)

How can you be a skeptic, with the things we see everyday? [Dean: Exactly, we see them. We know they’re real.] If you know evil’s out there, how can you not believe good’s out there too? (08:18)

[The guy is playing God, deciding who lives and dies. That’s a monster in my book.] No, we’re not gonna kill a human being, Dean. We do that, we’re no better than he is. (22:42)

Misc—

Layla: I guess if you’re gonna have faith, you can’t just have it when the miracles happen. You have to have it when they don’t. (41:19)

13. ROUTE 666

Dean—

[Sam: Look man, everybody’s got to open up to someone sometime.] Yeah, I don’t. It was stupid to get that close. (13:06)

[Cassie: Whenever we get—what’s the word?—close? Anywhere in the neighborhood of emotional vulnerability, you back off or make some joke or find any way to shut the door on me.] (15:19)

Sam—

You told her. You told her the secret. Our big family rule number one—we do what we do and we shut up about it. For a year and a half, I do nothing but lie to Jessica, and you go out with this chick in Ohio a couple of times, and you tell her everything? (04:18)

Oh, my life was so simple. Just school, exams, papers on polycentric cultural norms. [Dean: So I guess I saved you from a boring existence.] Occasionally I miss boring. [So, this killer truck—] I miss conversations that didn’t start with “this killer truck.” (29:31)

Ever make you wonder if it’s worth it? Putting everything on hold, doing what we do? (39:10)

14. NIGHTMARE

Dean—

[Sam: Well, with what he went through, the beatings, to want revenge on those people—I’m sorry, man. I hate to say it, but it’s not that insane.] Yeah, but it doesn’t justify murdering your entire family. [Dean—] He’s no different than anything else we’ve hunted. Alright? We gotta end him. [We’re not gonna kill Max.] Then what? Hand him over to the cops and say, “Lock him up, officer. He kills people with the power of his mind.” [Forget it. No way, man.] Sam— [Dean, he’s a person. We can talk to him. Hey, promise me you’ll follow my lead on this one.] Alright, fine. But I’m not letting him hurt anybody else. (25:01)

[Sam: We’re lucky we had Dad.] I never thought I’d hear you say that. [Well, it could have gone a whole ‘nother way after Mom. A little more tequila, a little less demon hunting, then we would have had Max’s childhood. All things considered, we turned out okay. Thanks to him.] All things considered. (38:27)

As long as I’m around, nothing bad’s gonna happen to you. (41:27)

Sam—

Well, I know one thing I have in common with these people. [Dean: What’s that?] Both our families are cursed. [Our family’s not cursed. We’ve just... had our dark spots.] Our dark spots are pretty dark. (19:13)

I was connecting to Max. The thing I don’t get it why, man. I guess because we’re so alike? [Dean: What are you talking about? Dude’s nothing like you.] Well, we both have psychic abilities. We’re both— [Both what? Sam, Max is a monster. He’s already killed two people, now he’s gunning for a third.] Well, with what he went through, the beatings, to want revenge on those people—I’m sorry, man. I hate to say it, but it’s not that insane. (24:43)

If I just said something else, gotten through to him somehow. [Dean: Don’t do that.] Do what? [Torture yourself. It wouldn’t have mattered what you said. Max was too far gone.] When I think about how he looked at me, man, right before.... I should have done something. [Come on, man, you risked your life. I mean, yeah, maybe if we’d have gotten there 20 years earlier.] Well, I’ll tell you one thing. We’re lucky we had Dad. [I never thought I’d hear you say that.] Well, it could have gone a whole ‘nother way after Mom. A little more tequila, a little less demon hunting, then we would have had Max’s childhood. All things considered, we turned out okay. Thanks to him. (38:03)

15. THE BENDERS

Dean—

Look... he’s family. And I kind of—I kind of look out for the kid. You gotta let me go with you. [Kathleen: I’m sorry, I can’t do that.] Well, tell me something. Your country has its fair share of missing persons. Any of ‘em come back? Sam’s my responsibility, and he’s coming back. I’m bringing him back. (08:56)

When we were young, I pretty much pulled him from a fire. And ever since then, I’ve felt responsible for him. You know, like it’s my job to keep him safe. I’m just afraid if we don’t find him fast.... Please. He’s my family. (15:04)

Demons, I get. People are crazy. (28:08)

If you hurt my brother, I’ll kill you, I swear. I’ll kill you all. I will kill you all! (35:54)

16. SHADOW

Dean—

[Sam: What are you gonna do when it’s all over?] It’s never gonna be over. There’s gonna be others. There’s always gonna be something to hunt. [But there’s got to be something that you want for yourself.] Yeah, I don’t want you to leave the second this thing’s over, Sam. [Dude. What’s your problem?] Why do you think I drag you everywhere, huh? Why do you think I came and got you at Stanford in the first place? [’Cause Dad was in trouble. ‘Cause you wanted to find the thing that killed Mom.] Yes, that, but it’s more than that, man. You and me and Dad. I want us to be together again. I want us to be a family again. [Dean, we are a family. I’d do anything for you. But things will never be the way they were before.] They could be. (24:04)

Sam—

What if this whole thing was over tonight? Man, I’d sleep for a month. Go back to school, just be a person again. (23:42)

Dean, we are a family. I’d do anything for you. But things will never be the way they were before. [Dean: They could be.] I don’t want them to be. I’m not gonna live this life forever. Dean, when this is all over, you’re gonna have to let me go my own way. (25:02)

Misc—

[Sam: Go to hell.] Meg: Baby, I’m already there. (30:22)

17. HELL HOUSE

Dean—

People believe in Santa Clause. How come I’m not getting hooked up every Christmas? [Sam: ‘Cause you’re a bad person.] (27:01)

Sam—

Man, we’re not kids anymore, Dean. We’re not gonna start that crap up again. [Dean: Start what up?] That prank stuff. It’s stupid, and it always escalates. (04:24)

Kind of makes you wonder—of all the things we hunted, how many existed just ‘cause people believed in them? (37:17)

18. SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES

Dean—

[Sam: What makes you so sure?] Well, because I’m the oldest, which means I’m always right. [No it doesn’t.] It totally does. (03:38)

Listen to me. I can promise you that this is not your fault, okay? [Michael: It’s my job to look after him.] (20:53)

I know how you feel, I’m a big brother, too. But you got to go easy on your mom right now, okay? (21:24)

Dad did not send me here to walk away. [Sam: Send you here? He didn’t send you here, he sent us here.] This isn’t about you, Sam, alright? I’m the one that screwed up. It’s my fault. There’s no telling how many kids have gotten hurt because of me. (25:35)

Dad never spoke about it again. I didn’t ask. But he, uh... he looked at me different, you know, which was worse. Not that I blame him. He gave me an order, and I didn’t listen, and I almost got you killed. [Sam: You were just a kid.] Don’t—don’t. Dad knew this was unfinished business for me. He sent me here to finish it. (29:26)

Are you sure you want to do this? You don’t have to. It’s okay, I won’t be mad. (33:57)

[Sam: Sometimes I wish that...] What? [I wish I could have that kind of innocence.] If it means anything, sometimes I wish you could, too. (40:05)

Sam—

Dean, I’m sorry. [Dean: For what?] You know. I’ve really given you a lot of crap for always following Dad’s orders, but I know why you do it. (34:39)

Sometimes I wish that... [Dean: What?] I wish I could have that kind of innocence. [If it means anything, sometimes I wish you could, too.] (40:05)

19. PROVENANCE

Dean—

I’m sure that this is about Jessica, right? Now, I don’t know what it’s like to lose somebody like that, but... I would think that she would want you to be happy. God forbid have fun once in a while. (20:47)

Sam—

I had a girlfriend. And she died. And my mom died, too. I don’t know, it’s like... it’s like I’m cursed or something. Like death just follows me around. Look, I’m not scared of much, but if I let myself have feelings for anybody— [Sarah: You’re scared they get hurt, too.] (30:39)

Misc—

Sarah: I know, losing somebody you love—it’s terrible. You shut yourself off. Believe me, I know. But when you shut out pain, you shut out everything else, too. (31:27)

20. DEAD MAN’S BLOOD

Dean—

He does what he does for a reason. [Sam: What reason?] Our job. There’s no time to argue. There’s no margin for error, alright? It’s just the way the old man runs things. [Yeah, well, maybe that worked when we were kids, but not anymore, alright? Not after everything you and I have been through, Dean. I mean, are you telling me you’re cool with just falling into line and letting him run the whole show?] If that’s what it takes. (14:51)

Sam—

I’m happy he’s okay, alright? I’m happy that we’re all working together. [Dean: Good.] It’s just the way he treats us like children. [Oh, God.] He barks orders at us, Dean. He expects us to follow him without question. He keeps us on some crap need-to-know deal. [He does what he does for a reason.] What reason? [Our job. There’s no time to argue. There’s no margin for error, alright? It’s just the way the old man runs things.] Yeah, well, maybe that worked when we were kids, but not anymore, alright? Not after everything you and I have been through, Dean. I mean, are you telling me you’re cool with just falling into line and letting him run the whole show? (14:51)

[John: You left. Your brother and me, we needed you. You walked away, Sam. You walked away!] You’re the one who said “Don’t come back,” Dad. You’re the one who closed that door, not me! You were just pissed off that you couldn’t control me anymore! (19:27)

[John: Sammy, it never occurred to me what you wanted. I just couldn’t accept the fact that you and me, we’re just different.] We’re not different. Not anymore. With what happened to Mom and Jess, we probably have a lot more in common than just about anyone. (29:20)

Misc—

John: This is never the life that I wanted for you. [Sam: Then why’d you get so mad when I left?] You got to understand something. After your mother passed, all I saw was evil, everywhere. And all I cared about was keeping you boys alive. I wanted you prepared, ready. So somewhere along the line, I stopped being your father. I became your drill sergeant. So when you said that you wanted to go away to school, all I could think about, my only thought was that you were gonna be alone, vulnerable. (28:21)

21. SALVATION

Dean—

For the last time, what happened to them is not your fault. [Sam: Yeah, you’re right, it’s not my fault, but it’s my problem!] No, it’s not your problem, it’s our problem! (05:42)

You’re just willing to sacrifice yourself, is that it? [Sam: Yeah. Yeah, you’re damn right I am.] Yeah, well, that’s not gonna happen—not as long as I’m around. [What the hell are you talking about, Dean? We’ve been searching for this demon our whole lives. It’s the only thing we’ve ever cared abut.] Sam, I want to waste it, I do, okay? But it’s not worth dying over. [What?] I mean it. If hunting this demon means you getting yourself killed, then I hope we never find the damn thing. [That thing killed Jess. That thing killed Mom,] You said yourself once that no matter what we do, they’re gone. And they’re never coming back. [Don’t you say that! Don’t you—not after all this, don’t you say that.] Sam, look. The three of us, that’s all we have. And it’s all I have. Sometimes I feel like I’m barely holding it together, man. Without you or Dad.... (37:51)

Sam—

So Mom’s death, Jessica—it’s all because of me? [Dean: We don’t know that, Sam.] Oh really? ‘Cause I’d say we’re pretty damn sure, Dean! [For the last time, what happened to them is not your fault.] Yeah, you’re right, it’s not my fault, but it’s my problem! (05:34)

Misc—

John: I want to stop losing people we love. I want you to go to school. I want Dean to have a home. I want Mary alive. I just want this to be over. (21:10)

22. DEVIL’S TRAP

Dean—

You know that guy I shot? There was a person in there. [Sam: You didn’t have a choice, Dean.] I know. That’s not what bothers me. [Then what does?] Killing that guy, killing Meg... I didn’t hesitate. I didn’t even flinch. For you or Dad, the things I’m willing to do or kill, it’s just... it scares me sometimes. [Azazel!John: It shouldn’t. You did good.] You’re not mad? [For what?] Using a bullet. [Mad? I’m proud of you. You know, Sam and I, we can get pretty obsessed. But you, you watch out for this family. You always have.] (29:41)

Listen, you mind just getting this over with, huh? ‘Cause I really can’t stand the monologuing. [Azazel: Funny, but that’s all part of your M.O., isn’t it? Mask all that nasty pain, mask the truth.] Oh yeah? What’s that? [You know, you fight and you fight for this family, but the truth is, they don’t need you. Not like you need them. Sam—he’s clearly John’s favorite. Even when they fight, it’s more concern than he’s ever shown you.] (36:52)

Sam—

[Dean: Well, you and Dad are a lot more alike than I thought, you know that? You both can’t wait to sacrifice yourself for this thing. But you know what? I’m gonna be the one to bury you. You’re selfish, you know that? You don’t care about anything but revenge.] (19:24)

Misc—

Azazel: He’s gonna tear you apart. He’s gonna taste the iron in your blood. [Dean: Let him go, or I swear to God—] What? What are you and God gonna do? (35:09)

#finally posting this 😜#tagging the ppl who said they'd be interested!!#lukeskysaunter #ijaazat #let me know if you want to be removed from/added to the tag list for future posts like this :)#spn #supernatural #ej.pdf #dean winchester #sam winchester #spn season 1 #spn season one #spn quotes

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bob-dude · 5 years

Text

Some Orange Jerk’s Hazbin thoughts, the longer version.

As I mentioned in a prior post, I thought the pilot was so-so. Don't hate it with a capital H but find everyone's love for this show to be... odd. Though considering the late 2000s Devinart vibe I get from the show’s art style, probably not too odd now that I think about it. So here’s my longer, more rambly, thoughts on Hazbin Hotel by some rando Orange Jerk on Tumblr. And as always, more power to ya if you do love it, obviously.

Art direction wise, I’m just not crazy about Viv’s color choice. The red and black and pinks give a Valintine’s day meets Wonderland Queen of Hearts vibe that just doesn't personally work for me on a visual level.

As for hell itself, I thought the background stuff like ‘Radio Hack’ and the main city being named Pentagram to be... eh? Like, that’s the kind of world-building we’re going with here? It felt less like Hell and more like a city with the trapings of Hell, at least for me.

So, main cast, the trio as it were. Eh. Meh. Like, Charlie is a Disney Princess of Hell... even though no one treats her as one respect wise which just strikes me as odd from a background perspective. And Charlie has that standard Disney nativity going on... even though she was born and raised in Hell? Like, why bother to make your most optimistic and native character a denizen of hell if she’s not going to look or act the part personality wise?

The reason the personality thing confuses me I guess, is that take Charlie out of Hell and we’ve seen her character a thousand times before: The bubbly sweet optimistic girl that’s been done so many times before. Is the ‘But in Hell!’ aspect really that much of a grabber for people? Guess it is and more power to em but it just strikes me as a strange creative choice where once again a character's personality doesn’t logically flow from their background.

Design-wise Charile is fine, red tux reminds me of the God from the 1977 Oh God movie so that gets a thumbs up in my book. Still a bit weird that a princess is wearing it but it makes sense with the Hotel set up and all so her outfit has a logic to it.

Then we have Vaggie. So, legit question here people: If you went into the pilot blind and Angle Dust didn’t make his ‘taco’ comment would you have ANY idea that Vaggie is supposed to be Latina? Because I legitimately had no idea that was what her design was supposed to say about her as a charchter. Also didn’t really get a moth vibe from her, either if I’m honest. As for her personality, she’s the standard ‘loving supportive’ GF but with an angry side protective side for Charile... and she’s a Latinia/Latinix. Does... Does no one else think that’s just a bit... off? Making the one clearly marked Latinia character the ‘angry girlfriend’ archetype?

Also, that weird pink X eye patch bugged the hell out of me when I was watching. Totally petty as shit nitpick, but I had to vent on that bit. Honestly, though Vaggie is also Meh? Like, she’s in a relationship with Charlie, cool and all but she just doesn’t strike me as a terribly interesting character if I’m honest. Gives me a sort of Lisa Simpson ‘stick-in-the-mud’ vibe.

And then we have Angle Dust. You know, in the words of Netflix’s Big Mouth, “Sassy and Gay” isn’t a personality. Angle Dust basically has that sort of ‘2000s Yaoi OC’ vibe and considering Vive once had a DA character sheet where she literally listed his personality is ‘Bitch’... Yeah.

Also, as I’ve said elsewhere, Viv and crew are doing too much with this guy. So he’s an ex mobster killed by his homophobic father in the 1920s (not mentioned in the pilot but it is a pilot in all fairness so you can’t throw all your cards on the table). And he’s a Spider Demon... even though per Word of Viv how everyone’s designed in hell doesn’t have anything to do with how they died on Earth (then why deign them that way?). And he’s a porn star (being ex Mob shouldn’t he be the one paying for porn stars as a power domination sort of thing?). AND he’s going for a Beetlejuice meets CJ from Regular Show sort of design.

It just seems a bit much, imo. Like, you could make him just a gay ex mob who mostly uses a Tommy Gun and design him to fit that and leave the Spider-Demon stuff out and it becomes a lot more manageable. Something like a simplified Zoot Suit, or the like. You could keep the sexual humor but throw it a bit more 1920s slang and pop culture references for characterization/comedy purposes (Vaggie, for example, has no idea what he’s talking about most of the time). Granted, I’d personally rather they ditch the ‘animal bits slapped on’ aspects of the designs as a whole but that, as always is just me.

For the record, I’m not ‘offended’ by Angle Dust as a character concept, I’m just not wowed or impressed, ultimately.

And then we have Alastor. Now, I LOVE Alastor as a character. He’s got that classic ‘reality warper’ vibe ala Bill Cipher or Discord but with a 1920s radio show host twist that I just think is amazing and the sound distortion they added to his voice was a really cool touch on top of it all. The problem, as always, comes more with the color choice. One one of your own characters can’t take someone seriously because they look like a ‘strawberry pimp’ that might be the time to maybe go with a different color pallet? Like, idk, maybe throw in some warm browns and brass golds to involve the 1920s radio vibe stronger? Radios of the 20s and 30s weren’t famous for being red, is what I’m getting at.

The other problem with Alastor is that he’s too strong a personality, ironically. He comes in at the tail end of the pilot and basically steals whatever interest a potential audience member (or at least fat orange jerks like me) might have had in Charlie's plight. It's like introducing Bill Cipher in the first episode of Gravity Falls. At that point whatever interest you might have had in the MC goes out the window and you think ‘what’s this dudes deal and can the show be about them instead please?’ Sure, Alastor in all of his pesudo deer (Those don’t look like horns in my opinion but whatever you say Viv) is fun to watch but he drowns out Charile through sheer force of charisma and showmen ship. Maybe the series itself will fix this but for the pilot at least I think it’s an issue.

Also, Nifty is Nifty and she needs her own spin-off ASAP. That is all.

Husk is literally Avocato from Final Space with wings and some gambling bits thrown in design-wise. That’s literally all I think of Husk, sorry Husk fans :(

The animation is good, but I do find it ironic that as much as people like the bitch about SU being off model, Hazbin I thought suffered from so many different animators tackling different scenes that it just felt jarring going from one scene to the next due to the difference in style and the shifts in animation pacing. Now, don’t get me wrong, a lot of it looks great but that switch in animators kinda just took me out of the experience in places. Well, that and the lack of proper scene transitions. Those are what also made the pilot feel like whiplash for me.

And now comes to Bob’s thoughts on the plot of the pilot and this is where the logical holes of the series start to get to me just a bit.

So. Charlie wants to reform the demons of hell of their sins so they can get to heaven and Hell can lower its population and angles down come down and deliver some righteous furry smiting on their asses. Okay. Stupid question but what the hell is Charlie basing this off of? I mean, was AD really THAT good an actor that Charlie thought going full steam ahead on the Hotel idea was the next reasonable step up?

Like, the Hotel was clearly a mess and her staff is literally just her and Vaggie and MAYBe Angel Dust. Even if the episode had ended with a horde of demons lining up to get into heaven by way of cleaning up their acts there’s no way two, three people could handle that (Or, you know, six if we throw in Nifty and Husk in fairness now that I think about it).

And that’s ultimately the thing with the pilot, the demons are assholes as you’d expect the citizens of hell to be but if they are assholes... why should we care if they get redeemed or not when not one of them is clearly interested in the idea? As cheesy as it would have been, the pilot ending with a horde of demons wanting to give this ‘become better’ thing a shot would have at least left the pilot on a better note to end on. As it is it just seems like Charlie is doomed to fail because no one but her gives a shit or belives about her idea for the Hotel and we have no proof that her idea will even work. Which just makes me wonder: Why should I care if no one else does?

Ultimately, the show has potential but the art style and aspects of the writing just don’t click for me. The show doesn’t say ‘adult’ to me so much as it does 'Hot Topic Teen trying to be adult' which works for a lot of people but for me I think Hellevua Boss as more potential concept-wise. And has scenes on Earth which do the red and black and pink and white colors of the demons a lot better visual justice contrast wise but that’s just me.

#hazbin hotel #sorry hazbin fans #your show is flawed and has room for improvement

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