#it's not rhaegar or lyanna or their child Jon to bear any of the blame in this | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

nightswatchdisbandmentera · 1 month

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Prince Rhaegar as a character often gets some deserved criticism - and a lot of underserved hate. And one of the things that I think he unfairly gets blamed for is Elia Martell's tragedy. Elia's death is one of the primary objections people have towards Rhaegar and Lyanna being depicted as a romance, with readers believing that if they were just tragic lovers, then that diminishes Elia's own tragedy.

I...disagree. It is understandable (and honestly right) that readers would rally behind Elia. Not only was she horribly brutalized and murdered, but her children suffered absolutely terrible fates as well.

However, in trying to center Rhaegar and Lyanna's doomed dalliance in this, a lot of readers are missing the answer that has been already provided to us within the narrative. Not only that, but this line of thinking also ignores the key context in which Elia's senseless murder is portrayed.

As far as the text goes, Elia’s death is laid squarely at the feet of Tywin Lannister and his men, Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Lorch. It's House Lannister's burden to bear.

Doran for one, Elia's brother, directly blames Tywin Lannister:

“You mistake patience for forbearance. I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children.”

The Princess in the Tower, AFFC

Even Oberyn agrees:

“Dwarf,” said the Red Viper, in a tone grown markedly less cordial, “spare me your Lannister lies. Is it sheep you take us for, or fools? My brother is not a bloodthirsty man, but neither has he been asleep for sixteen years. Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure that he was questioned closely. Him, and a hundred more. I did not come for some mummer’s show of an inquiry. I came for justice for Elia and her children, and I will have it. Starting with this lummox Gregor Clegane … but not, I think, ending there. Before he dies, the Enormity That Rides will tell me whence came his orders, please assure your lord father of that.” He smiled. “An old septon once claimed I was living proof of the goodness of the gods. Do you know why that is, Imp?”

Tyrion IV, ASOS

“Is that the game we are playing?” Tyrion rubbed at his scarred nose. He had nothing to lose by telling Oberyn the truth. “There was a bear at Harrenhal, and it did kill Ser Amory Lorch.” “How sad for him,” said the Red Viper. “And for you. Do all noseless men lie so badly, I wonder?” “I am not lying. Ser Amory dragged Princess Rhaenys out from under her father’s bed and stabbed her to death. He had some men-at-arms with him, but I do not know their names.” He leaned forward. “It was Ser Gregor Clegane who smashed Prince Aegon’s head against a wall and raped your sister Elia with his blood and brains still on his hands.” “What is this, now? Truth, from a Lannister?” Oberyn smiled coldly. “Your father gave the commands, yes?” “No.” He spoke the lie without hesitation, and never stopped to ask himself why he should. The Dornishman raised one thin black eyebrow. “Such a dutiful son. And such a very feeble lie. It was Lord Tywin who presented my sister’s children to King Robert all wrapped up in crimson Lannister cloaks.”

Tyrion IX, ASOS

“Elia Martell, Princess of Dorne,” the Red Viper hissed. “You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children…“I came to hear you confess.”

Tyrion X, ASOS

Varys and Tyrion both understand that House Martell (but more specifically Doran) hates the Lannisters.

“The Dornishmen thus far have held aloof from these wars. Doran Martell has called his banners, but no more. His hatred for House Lannister is well known, and it is commonly thought he will join Lord Renly. You wish to dissuade him.” “All this is obvious,” said Tyrion. “The only puzzle is what you might have offered for his allegiance. The prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe.” “My father once told me that a lord never lets sentiment get in the way of ambition … and it happens we have an empty seat on the small council, now that Lord Janos has taken the black.” “A council seat is not to be despised,” Varys admitted, “yet will it be enough to make a proud man forget his sister’s murder?” “Why forget?” Tyrion smiled. “I’ve promised to deliver his sister’s killers, alive or dead, as he prefers. After the war is done, to be sure.” Varys gave him a shrewd look. “My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a … certain name … when they came for her.” “Is a secret still a secret if everyone knows it?” In Casterly Rock, it was common knowledge that Gregor Clegane had killed Elia and her babe. They said he had raped the princess with her son’s blood and brains still on his hands. “This secret is your lord father’s sworn man.” “My father would be the first to tell you that fifty thousand Dornishmen are worth one rabid dog.” Varys stroked a powdered cheek. “And if Prince Doran demands the blood of the lord who gave the command as well as the knight who did the deed …” “Robert Baratheon led the rebellion. All commands came from him, in the end.” “Robert was not at King’s Landing.” “Neither was Doran Martell.”

Tyrion IV, ACOK

Really, all the nobles know where to look at when assigning blame for Elia's murder. Tywin.

“Prince Doran comes at my son’s invitation,” Lord Tywin said calmly, “not only to join in our celebration, but to claim his seat on this council, and the justice Robert denied him for the murder of his sister Elia and her children.” Tyrion watched the faces of the Lords Tyrell, Redwyne, and Rowan, wondering if any of the three would be bold enough to say, “But Lord Tywin, wasn’t it you who presented the bodies to Robert, all wrapped up in Lannister cloaks?” None of them did, but it was there on their faces all the same. Redwyne does not give a fig, he thought, but Rowan looks fit to gag.

Tywin, for the most part, quite shamelessly tries to disassociate himself from his own moral failings; this is nothing new, because he follows this same MO with squarely blaming the Freys for the Red Wedding even though he played an integral part in planning for it.

“Then why did the Mountain kill her?” “Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark’s van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do.” He closed a fist. “Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape … even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of … two? Three? He said she’d kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow.” His mouth twisted in distaste. “The blood was in him.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

“And when Oberyn demands the justice he’s come for?” “I will tell him that Ser Amory Lorch killed Elia and her children,” Lord Tywin said calmly. “So will you, if he asks.” “Ser Amory Lorch is dead,” Tyrion said flatly. “Precisely. Vargo Hoat had Ser Amory torn apart by a bear after the fall of Harrenhal. That ought to be sufficiently grisly to appease even Oberyn Martell.” “You may call that justice …” “It is justice. It was Ser Amory who brought me the girl’s body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her father’s bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her. Princess Elia and the babe were in the nursery a floor below.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

Tywin tries to alleviate himself of any responsibility by blaming his men, but the narrative actively calls bullshit on this (through Tywin's own son no less).

So the narrative shows through multiple POVs that Elia's murder is contextualized exclusively as a failing on Tywin Lannister and his men; not only was it a moral failing, but Tyrion also questions if it was politically necessary in the first place. It's also important to note that ASOS is when we really dive into the matter of Elia and her children (mostly through Oberyn), but we also have to remember that this is the same book as the Red Wedding. The Red Wedding, another one of Tywin's senseless massacres that he tries to postulate as politically necessary.

So, we have agreed that the blame and context for Elia's (and her children's) murder is presented through the lens of Tywin as an immoral politician who often makes politically unnecessary moves. But then we ask ourselves, can the responsibility of this tragedy be extended? Well, yes it can. And it has been in the text.

Ser Barristan extends this tragedy beyond Tywin and his men

...to King Robert.

“Prince Rhaegar had two children,” Ser Barristan told him. “Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King’s Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king.” And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin’s gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar’s children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. “I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I’ll have no part of this.”

The Kingbreaker, ADWD

Ned Stark does as well.

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

Eddard II, AGOT

And so does Tywin, who uses Robert's tacit approval as justification for this senseless act.

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. “You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert’s cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert’s relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar’s children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.” His father shrugged. “I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

So if we can't extend the blame to Rhaegar, because the narrative doesn't do so either, what can we hold him responsible for? Let's take a step back and look at Rhaegar's culpability in this whole thing.

Was Rhaegar (and Lyanna) responsible for starting the war that would eventually lead to Elia's murder?

No. GRRM doesn't think so. The war actually started when King Aerys murdered the Lord of Winterfell and his heir, a bunch of other northern nobles, and then called for the heads of Robert Baratheon (Lord of Storm's End) and Ned Stark (the new Lord of Winterfell). Aerys broke the feudal contract, and so Jon Arryn declared war.

I don't think I would have stayed loyal to the Mad King. Do I think they were justified? Yes, and no. [...] There was no doubt that the Mad King was mad. He was paranoid and he was abusing his power. And Westeros has no Magna Carta or anything like that. There was no way to handle this within the rule of law. But was what they do justified? Especially when you consider that it was triggered by a personal grievance. The execution of Ned's father and brother was really a thing that radicalized Ned and put him in opposition to it. Robert was just rolling for a fight and didn't like the fact that he'd lost his girlfriend. So you know, the personal informs the political.

source

Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance was merely the spark - it led to a misunderstanding that caused Brandon Stark to ride to Kingslanding. What really caused the war was Aerys' Targaryens subsequent actions as the king. So if we want to blame someone for causing the chain of events that led to Elia's death as well as her children's, the author himself says to blame Aerys; even though I don't think this is right either because we once again stray from the necessary (and sole) context of Elia's murder - Tywin's bloody hands.

Fine. Rhaegar was not responsible for the war. But surely he is responsible for leaving Elia in King's Landing, right in the clutches of Mad King Aerys. Well, this again, is not true. As far as Rhaegar knew, Elia was in Dragonstone with Aegon and Rhaenys where he left them.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon.

“The Year of the False Spring”, The World of Ice and Fire

At some point, Elia was called to King's Landing. And it was Aerys who kept her hostage there as insurance against possible Dornish betrayal (remember, he was paranoid).

Side Note: Aerys kept another important political hostage in King's Landing along with Elia - Jaime Lannister; this is to deter anyone from trying to blame Jaime for doing nothing. He was a teenager and a hostage himself!

“My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father’s son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.” He remembered how Rossart’s eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. “Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I’ll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him … that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

Jaime V, ASOS

Ok, fine. So Rhaegar did not abandon her with Aerys then run off to Lyanna. But he should have done something when he came back, right? Why didn't he leave more Kings Guard with Elia and the children?

Well....this is a war. The knights of the KG are important assets on the battle field. Kings Landing, at the time, was not the most dangerous location. The KG were better off at the Trident, as a victory there would protect those who were left behind in KL.

And it's not that Rhaegar didn't do anything. Beyond going off to lead the battle himself, he tried to make moves that would help those who were back in KL (Elia and the children included).

He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King’s Landing. Beneath Baelor’s Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

Jaime V ASOS

And Jaime's POV once again shows us that Rhaegar banked on victory at the Trident, and was fully expecting to come back to KL and amend the fraught political situation.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.” Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.” Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.” “Then guard the king,” Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.” Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but … well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

Jaime I, AFFC

So Rhaegar wasn't leaving with no care about what happened back in King's Landing. We don't know what he wanted to do with Aerys, Elia, Lyanna, and the aftermath of the war because he died at the Trident. But we do know that he, at the very least, was planning to do something.

So we can't blame Rhaegar (and Lyanna) for starting the war and we can't blame him either for abandoning Elia in King's Landing with no care about what happens next. So, again, what can we blame him for?

“It's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution.”

SSM, 09/11/1999

GRRM states that Dorne was angry about Rhaegar's treatment of Elia. What is this treatment, though?

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap.

Eddard XV, AGOT

Specifically, Rhaegar riding past Elia to crown Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty. Yes, that is a humiliation. And it's undeniable that no one was happy.

The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause…Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor…Eddard Stark, Brandon’s younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased.

“The Year of the False Spring”, The World of Ice and Fire

But, humiliating Elia is not the same thing as being responsible for her death. The narrative never equates these two things in any way. Elia's death is about Tywin's immoral and blood thirsty political actions. It's about Dorne's desire for justice (or is it vengeance?) which they know they will not get from the Lannister regime. House Lannister's downfall in King's Landing will be brought about by Prince Aegon's rise - Aegon who is proclaiming to be the long lost son of Prince Rhaegar, and who is being supported by House Martell as of now.

We can criticize Rhaegar for some things, but Elia's death is surely not one of them.

#I generally don't like talking about the whole rhaegar-lyanna-elia stuff partly because I don't really care for either of them #but mostly because these topics often devolve into extremes that help absolutely no one #but I just wanted to hop on here and say that blaming rhaegar for elia's death is imo not cannon compliant #the narrative already give us an answer to this - THE LANNISTERS but more specifically TYWIN and GREGOR and AMORY #it's not rhaegar or lyanna or their child Jon to bear any of the blame in this #dorne's decision to join the war against the crown is entirely because it's in opposition to the lannister regime #that's not to say that rhaegar cannot have responsibility for the humiliation of elia - because even grrm says he does #but saying he bears the blame for her murder is just a bit.....😕#also rhaegar is one thing but blaming LYANNA of all people is ummm well #rhaegar targaryen #robert's rebellion #tywin lannister #ser gregor clegane #ser amory lorch #house martell #elia martell #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #pls forgive any spelling and grammatical mistakes its midnights and I'm tired af thanks #my stuff

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butterflies-dragons · 4 years

Note

Hello! I love your blog. Your meta about women in Jon’s life and Lyanna was so good. Antis always try to ignore the Sansa and Lyanna parallels which is absurd because her story is so similar with Sansa’s... I guess they want to ignore those because they don’t want Sansa to be destined with a Targaryen prince (aka jonsa 🤭). So thanks for pointing them out. Are you planning to write a meta just about Sansa and Lyanna? It would be a good guide for our jonsa arguments. Have a nice day.

Hello Anon,

Thanks for your words.

Antis and haters gonna oppose and hate. That’s their thing. They questioned and denied every parallel that Lyanna and Sansa actually share, and proceed to attack anyone who dare to say they share those parallels. What’s knew about that?

Lyanna and Arya parallels are textual evident, they are easily spotted but they could be easily questioned as well, especially because most of the statements about Lyanna came from Ned, and he is not only an unreliable narrator, but his memories of Lyanna are embellished by love and trauma. If you contrast what Ned said about Lyanna with other sources, not so biased, Ned’s statements about her don’t look so evident and solid anymore.

Anyway, do you want me to talk more about Lyanna and Sansa parallels? Here you go:

Summary

Original Outline

Beauty

The wolf-blood

She-Wolves of Winterfell

Inner Strength

Sword & Armor

Knights protect the innocent

Singers & Songs

The Rose of Winterfell

Blue Winter Roses

Knights & Queens of Love and Beauty

Failed betrothal to a Baratheon

Pleading Ned to protect part of themselves

Targaryen Imagery

Dead before their time

Ladies of Winterfell

Bonus

LYANNA & SANSA

Original Outline & ASOIAF:

Sansa in the Original Outline:

‘Original Outline Sansa’ was very similar to Lyanna Stark.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. (...) Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders.

[Source]

As you can see, the ‘Original Outline Sansa’ shares parallels with Lyanna Stark and Elia Martel:

Romantically involved with the King/Heir of the Iron Throne

Mothers of their sons

Dead while protecting their children

Unwillingly caused the death of family members

Tagged as members of dubious loyalty to their paternal families

Regretted their doomed romances

But ¿How marrying the heir of the Iron Throne/King of the 7K is supposed to be an act of dubious loyalty? GRRM has stated that in high nobility there is no marriage without the Lord Father of the bride’s blessing. Furthermore, from the wedding the bride belongs to her husband’s house, that’s all the fuzz with the cloaking ceremony, going from the maiden’s cloak to your husband’s cloak. You left your paternal house to belong with your husbands house. Sansa’s loyalty was with her husband, and more important, Sansa’s love and loyalty was with her baby boy. So, how choosing his baby over her paternal house could be seem as an act of dubious loyalty then? And even if she wanted to come back to her paternal family, does she really get a chance without the risk of being captured, separated from her baby, accused of treason and executed, leaving her baby boy motherless?

But according to the Original Outline, there was an enmity between Starks and Lannisters. So, or Joffrey abducted Sansa, or Sansa eloped to marry Joffrey. How very Shakespearean! Romeo and Juliet all over again. Or even better, Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark all over again.

It is also implied by the fandom that this ‘Original Outline Sansa’ dies because the outline says that Jaime dethrones and kills Joffrey and “everyone ahead of him in the line of succession” (Sansa’s baby). Well, Sansa was not in the line of succession, but it’s probable that Jaime had to kill her to get to her baby boy, which reminds me of Elia Martell and her babies’ tragic deaths.

Sansa in Asoiaf:

Asoiaf Sansa never married Joffrey, never bore him a son, and she’s still alive. But she still shares a lot of similarities with her aunt Lyanna.

Both Lyanna and Sansa got infatuated by silver/golden princes, Rhaegar Targaryen and Joffrey Baratheon, and because of those romantic relationships, they unintentionally played a part in the deaths of their fathers and older brothers, Rickard and Brandon, and Ned and Robb. Later, both of them ended trapped in towers regretting their doomed romances.

According to GRRM, Asoiaf Sansa played a part in her father Ned Stark’s death. But I would say that Sansa’s fault lays more in trusting the wrong people than betraying Ned. The act of betrayal requires willful intent, and Sansa never wanted to betray her father. And we can say the same about Lyanna, she trusted Rhaegar over her family, ran away from her approved betrothal, lived a forbidden romance, and died after giving birth a son to her silver prince.

Sansa and Lyanna commit the same actions, but Lyanna gets more sympathy from the readers than Sansa, who is still considered a member of dubious loyalty or plainly a traitor to the Starks.

Also, as it was pointed out before, “Rickard Stark and Catelyn Stark both saw their firstborn sons murdered in front of them, while convinced that their daughters were far away being raped and abused by cruel princes, and then were brutally murdered themselves”.

Beauty:

Both Lyanna and Sansa are considered beautiful, but in different ways.

While Lyanna had a wild beauty:

“She [Lyanna] was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.” —AGOT - Arya II

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. —AGOT - Eddard I

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath”. —AGOT - Eddard VII

“The maid’s a fair one,” Osha said. —AGOT - Bran VII

The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he [Kevan] recalled. —ADWD - Epilogue

The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king. —The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

Sansa possesses a traditional beauty:

Sansa’s needlework was exquisite. Everyone said so. “Sansa’s work is as pretty as she is”, Septa Mordane told their lady mother once. —AGOT - Arya I

Sansa had the grace to blush. She blushed prettily. She did everything prettily. —AGOT - Arya I

Worse, she was beautiful. Sansa had gotten their mother’s fine high cheekbones and the thick auburn hair of the Tullys. —AGOT - Arya I

“I [Ser Cleos Frey] saw Sansa at the court, the day Tyrion told me his terms. She looked most beautiful, my lady. Perhaps a, a bit wan. Drawn, as it were.” —ACOK - Catelyn VI

Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was. —ACOK - Catelyn VII

“You are very beautiful, my lady,” the seamstress said when she was dressed. —ASOS - Sansa III

Ser Kevan told her she was beautiful, Jalabhar Xho said something she did not understand in the Summer Tongue, and Lord Redwyne wished her many fat children and long years of joy. —ASOS - Sansa III

“Ser Ossifer speaks truly, you are the most beautiful maid in all the Seven Kingdoms.” —TWOW - Alayne I

“Had we known such beauty awaited us at the Gates, we would have flown,” Ser Roland said. Though his words were addressed to Myranda Royce, he smiled at Alayne as he said them. —TWOW - Alayne I

The wolf-blood:

Lyanna:

"Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

“She was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.”

—AGOT - Arya II

Sansa:

“I’ve never seen an aurochs,” Sansa said, feeding a piece of bacon to Lady under the table. The direwolf took it from her hand, as delicate as a queen. Septa Mordane sniffed in disapproval. “A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table,” she said, breaking off another piece of comb and letting the honey drip down onto her bread. “She’s not a dog, she’s a direwolf,” Sansa pointed out as Lady licked her fingers with a rough tongue. “Anyway, Father said we could keep them with us if we want.” The septa was not appeased. “You’re a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you’re as willful as your sister Arya.” She scowled. “And where is Arya this morning?"

—AGOT - Sansa I

"It won’t be so bad, Sansa,” Arya said. “We’re going to sail on a galley. It will be an adventure, and then we’ll be with Bran and Robb again, and Old Nan and Hodor and the rest.” She touched her on the arm. “Hodor!” Sansa yelled. “You ought to marry Hodor, you’re just like him, stupid and hairy and ugly!” She wrenched away from her sister’s hand, stormed into her bedchamber, and barred the door behind her.

—AGOT - Sansa III

Jeyne yawned. “Are there any lemon cakes?” Sansa did not like being interrupted, but she had to admit, lemon cakes sounded more interesting than most of what had gone on in the throne room. “Let’s see,” she said. The kitchen yielded no lemon cakes, but they did find half of a cold strawberry pie, and that was almost as good. They ate it on the tower steps, giggling and gossiping and sharing secrets, and Sansa went to bed that night feeling almost as wicked as Arya.

—AGOT - Sansa III

After my name day feast, I’m going to raise a host and kill your brother myself. That’s what I’ll give you, Lady Sansa. Your brother’s head.“ A kind of madness took over her then, and she heard herself say, "Maybe my brother will give me your head.”

—AGOT - Sansa VI

She-Wolves of Winterfell:

Lyanna is literally the she-wolf in the tale of “The Knight of the Laughing Tree”:

But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf."

"A wolf on four legs, or two?"

"Two," said Meera.

—ASOS - Bran II

Sansa went from a “wolf girl” to the she-wolf that killed a king:

He smiled at her. "Now, wolf girl, if you can put a name to me as well, then I must concede that you are truly our Hand’s daughter.”

—AGOT - Sansa I

“I forgot, you’ve been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell’s daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head.”

—ASOS - Arya XIII

“May the Father judge him justly,” murmured a septon. “The dwarf’s wife did the murder with him,” swore an archer in Lord Rowan’s livery. “Afterward, she vanished from the hall in a puff of brimstone, and a ghostly direwolf was seen prowling the Red Keep, blood dripping from his jaws.”

—ASOS - Jaime VII

“Your Grace has forgotten the Lady Sansa,” said Pycelle. The queen bristled. “I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf.” She refused to say the girl’s name. “I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son.

—AFFC - Cersei IV

What a kick-ass reputation: Sansa, the she-wolf that killed King Joffrey!

Inner Strength:

Lyanna:

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath”. —AGOT - Eddard VII

Sansa:

My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel. —ASOS - Sansa V

Sansa lost her direwolf Lady, and with her, the possibility to develop her abilities as a warg. But GRRM has still made Sansa an skinchanger through poetry. Her skin has changed to porcelain, to ivory, to steel.

Sword & Armor

While Lyanna might have carried a sword, Sansa Stark is a lady armored in courtesy and she polishes her armor with her wits. As Tyrion Lannister said:

My mind is my weapon. My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind … and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." Tyrion tapped the leather cover of the book. "That's why I read so much, Jon Snow."

—AGOT - Tyrion II

Lyanna:

Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes.

—AGOT - Arya II

Sansa:

Sansa felt that she ought to say something. What was it that Septa Mordane used to tell her? A lady’s armor is courtesy, that was it. She donned her armor and said, “I’m sorry my lady mother took you captive, my lord.”

—ACOK - Sansa I

Courtesy is a lady’s armor. You must not offend them, be careful what you say. “I do not know Ser Willas. I have never had the pleasure, my lady. Is he … is he as great a knight as his brothers?”

—ASOS - Sansa I

“Gods have mercy.” The dwarf took another swallow of wine. “Well, talk won’t make you older. Shall we get on with this, my lady? If it please you?” “It will please me to please my lord husband.” That seemed to anger him. “You hide behind courtesy as if it were a castle wall.” “Courtesy is a lady’s armor,” Sansa said. Her septa had always told her that. “I am your husband. You can take off your armor now.” “And my clothing?” “That too.” He waved his wine cup at her. “My lord father has commanded me to consummate this marriage.”

—ASOS - Sansa III

He wanted to reach her, to break through the armor of her courtesy. Was that what made him speak? Or just the need to distract himself from the fullness in his bladder?

[...]

Perhaps that would please Sansa. Gently, he spoke of Braavos, and met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north. It made him weary. Then and now.

—ASOS - Tyrion VIII

Ser Harrold looked down at her coldly. “Why should it please me to be escorted anywhere by Littlefinger’s bastard?”

[...]

A lady’s armor is her courtesy. Alayne could feel the blood rushing to her face. No tears, she prayed. Please, please, I must not cry. “As you wish, ser. And now if you will excuse me, Littlefinger’s bastard must find her lord father and let him know that you have come, so we can begin the tourney on the morrow.” And may your horse stumble, Harry the Heir, so you fall on your stupid head in your first tilt. She showed the Waynwoods a stone face as they blurted out awkward apologies for their companion. When they were done she turned and fled.

—TWOW - Alayne I

Knights protect the innocent:

Lyanna, as herself and as “The Knight of the Laughing Tree”, defended Howland Reed, a bannerman of House Stark:

“None offered a name, but he marked their faces well so he could revenge himself upon them later. They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. ‘That’s my father’s man you’re kicking,’ howled the she-wolf.” “A wolf on four legs, or two?” “Two,” said Meera. “The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen. There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four.

(…)

“Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called.”

—ASOS - Bran II

Sansa, as a lady armored with her courtesy and wits, defended and saved Dontos Hollard’s life, a defenestrated knight turned fool:

The king stood. “A cask from the cellars! I’ll see him drowned in it.” Sansa heard herself gasp. “No, you can’t.” Joffrey turned his head. “What did you say?” Sansa could not believe she had spoken. Was she mad? To tell him no in front of half the court? She hadn’t meant to say anything, only … Ser Dontos was drunk and silly and useless, but he meant no harm. “Did you say I can’t? Did you?” “Please,” Sansa said, “I only meant … it would be ill luck, Your Grace … to, to kill a man on your name day.” “You’re lying,” Joffrey said. “I ought to drown you with him, if you care for him so much.” “I don’t care for him, Your Grace.” The words tumbled out desperately. “Drown him or have his head off, only … kill him on the morrow, if you like, but please … not today, not on your name day. I couldn’t bear for you to have ill luck … terrible luck, even for kings, the singers all say so …” Joffrey scowled. He knew she was lying, she could see it. He would make her bleed for this. “The girl speaks truly,” the Hound rasped. “What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year.” His voice was flat, as if he did not care a whit whether the king believed him or no. Could it be true? Sansa had not known. It was just something she’d said, desperate to avoid punishment. Unhappy, Joffrey shifted in his seat and flicked his fingers at Ser Dontos. “Take him away. I’ll have him killed on the morrow, the fool.” “He is,” Sansa said. “A fool. You’re so clever, to see it. He’s better fitted to be a fool than a knight, isn’t he? You ought to dress him in motley and make him clown for you. He doesn’t deserve the mercy of a quick death.” The king studied her a moment. “Perhaps you’re not so stupid as Mother says.” He raised his voice. “Did you hear my lady, Dontos? From this day on, you’re my new fool. You can sleep with Moon Boy and dress in motley."

—ACOK - Sansa I

Singers & Songs:

Lyanna and Sansa are linked with singers and romantic songs.

Lyanna loved a singer and became a lady in a song, her own tragic romantic story:

The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle.

—ASOS - Bran II

The wolf maid was Lyanna Stark hearing her dragon prince Rhaegar Targaryen playing a sad song with the harp.

And curiously enough, a blue eyed redhead man called Jon also wept while hearing Rhaegar Targaryen playing a sad song with the harp:

At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp. Not the men, of course.

—A Dance with Dragons - The Griffin Reborn

Jon Connington was, of course, in love with Rhaegar Targaryen...

Sansa:

Once, when she was just a little girl, a wandering singer had stayed with them at Winterfell for half a year. An old man he was, with white hair and windburnt cheeks, but he sang of knights and quests and ladies fair, and Sansa had cried bitter tears when he left them, and begged her father not to let him go. “The man has played us every song he knows thrice over,” Lord Eddard told her gently. “I cannot keep him here against his will. You need not weep, though. I promise you, other singers will come.”

They hadn’t, though, not for a year or more. Sansa had prayed to the Seven in their sept and old gods of the heart tree, asking them to bring the old man back, or better still to send another singer, young and handsome. But the gods never answered, and the halls of Winterfell stayed silent.

But that was when she was a little girl, and foolish. She was a maiden now, three-and-ten and flowered. All her nights were full of song, and by day she prayed for silence.

—A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

Bran and his brothers and sisters sat with the king's children, Joffrey and Tommen and Princess Myrcella, who'd spent the whole meal gazing at Robb with adoring eyes. Arya made faces across the table when no one was looking; Sansa listened raptly while the king's high harper sang songs of chivalry, and Rickon kept asking why Jon wasn't with them. "Because he's a bastard," Bran finally had to whisper to him.

—ACOK - Bran III

Later, while Sansa was off listening to a troupe of singers perform the complex round of interwoven ballads called the “Dance of the Dragons,” [sung in High Valyrian] Ned inspected the bruise himself. “I hope Forel is not being too hard on you,” he said.

—AGOT - Eddard VII

She pulled a chair close to the hearth, took down one of her favorite books, and lost herself in the stories of Florian and Jonquil, of Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, of valiant Prince Aemon and his doomed love for his brother’s queen.

—AGOT - Sansa IV

After the meal had been cleared away, many of the guests asked leave to go to the sept. Cersei graciously granted their request. Lady Tanda and her daughters were among those who fled. For those who remained, a singer was brought forth to fill the hall with the sweet music of the high harp. He sang of Jonquil and Florian, of Prince Aemon the Dragonknight and his love for his brother’s queen, of Nymeria’s ten thousand ships. They were beautiful songs, but terribly sad. Several of the women began to weep, and Sansa felt her own eyes growing moist.

—ACOK - Sansa VI

So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words.

—ASOS - Arya IV

Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born.” “Why would she do that?” said Arya, startled. (...) “Why did she jump in the sea, though?” "Her heart was broken." Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid.

—ASOS - Arya VIII

"Do you require guarding?” Marillion said lightly. “I am composing a new song, you should know. A song so sweet and sad it will melt even your frozen heart. 'The Roadside Rose,’ I mean to call it. About a baseborn girl so beautiful she bewitched every man who laid eyes upon her.”

—ASOS - Sansa VII

Lyanna and Sansa are also linked with the tale of Bael the Bard and the Rose of Winterfell.

The Rose of Winterfell:

This is the tale:

According to free folk legend, Lord Brandon Stark, the liege of the north, once called Bael a coward. To take revenge for this affront and prove his courage, Bael climbed the Wall, took the kingsroad, and entered Winterfell under the guise of a singer named Sygerrik of Skagos. (“Sygerrik” means “deceiver” in the Old Tongue.) There, he sang until midnight for the lord.

Impressed by his skills as a singer, Lord Stark asked Bael what he wanted as a reward, but he requested only the most beautiful flower blooming in Winterfell’s gardens. As the blue winter roses were just blooming, Brandon Stark presented him with one. The following morning, the maiden daughter of Lord Stark had disappeared, his only child, and in her bed was the blue winter rose.

Lord Brandon sent the members of the Night’s Watch looking for them beyond the Wall, but they never found Bael or the girl. The Stark line was on the verge of extinction, when one day the girl was back in her room, holding in her arms an infant: they had actually never left Winterfell, staying hidden in the crypts. Bael’s bastard with Brandon’s daughter became the new Lord Stark.

Thirty years later, Bael was King-Beyond-the-Wall and led the wildlings’ army south, and he had to fight his own son at the Frozen Ford. There, incapable of killing his own blood, he let himself be killed by Lord Stark. His son brought back Bael’s head to Winterfell, and his mother who had loved the bard, seeing the trophy, killed herself by leaping from the top of a tower. The son was eventually slain by the Boltons.

[Source]

Jon’s first and only lover, Ygritte, told him this story:

“You said you were the Bastard o’ Winterfell.” “I am.” “Who was your mother?” “Some woman. Most of them are.” Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who. She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. “And she never sung you the song o’ the winter rose?” “I never knew my mother. Or any such song.” “Bael the Bard made it,” said Ygritte. “He was King-beyond-the-Wall a long time back. (...) “Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider.” (...) “The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael’s head, but never could take him, and the taste o’ failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o’ that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means ‘deceiver’ in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak.” “North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower,’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’” “Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.” Jon had never heard this tale before. (...) “Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o’ Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o’ Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child’s cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast.” “Bael had brought her back?” “No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what’s certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael’s blood in you, same as me.”

—ACOK - Jon VI

This tale resembles Jon’s own story: Bael the Bard and Rhaegar Targaryen, both harp players, “abducted” a Stark maid, Brandon’s daughter and Lyanna, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell’. Rhaegar also crowned Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty with blue winter roses, and they procreated a “bastard” son, Jon Snow. Lyanna died after giving birth to Jon, and the memories of that tragic even haunted Ned, who remembers the Lyanna bleeding and the blue winter roses:

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

—AGOT - Eddard XIII

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Immediately after this chapter, comes ACOK - Sansa IV, where Sansa got her first period.

So after a chapter about ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell’ it follows the chapter where Sansa Stark becomes a maid, Sansa literally flowered.

Next chapter is Jon again. There is a succession of Jon-Sansa-Jon chapters, that linked them thematically.

Also take note that Sansa was “abducted” by Petyr Baelish, a known deceiver, whose surname has a resemblance with the name Bael.

Blue Winter Roses:

Lyanna and Sansa are linked with flowers, but especially with roses:

Lyanna and the blue winter roses:

Ned could recall none of it. ”I bring her flowers when I can,“ he said. ”Lyanna was … fond of flowers.”

—A Game Of Thrones - Eddard I

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

—AGOT - Eddard XIII

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Sansa Stark:

It was enough that she could walk in the yard, pick flowers in Myrcella’s garden, and visit the sept to pray for her father. Sometimes she prayed in the godswood as well, since the Starks kept the old gods.

—AGOT - Sansa V

Her eyes were only for Ser Loras. When the white horse stopped in front of her, she thought her heart would burst. To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. “Sweet lady,” he said, “no victory is half so beautiful as you.” Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry. His hair was a mass of lazy brown curls, his eyes like liquid gold. She inhaled the sweet fragrance of the rose and sat clutching it long after Ser Loras had ridden off.

—AGOT - Sansa II

—ASOS - Sansa VII

So we have Marillion, a singer, composing a song for Alayne Stone, Sansa Stark in disguise, that he meant to call “The Roadside Rose”

And Loras Tyrell, The Knight of Flowers, gave Sansa a single red rose. I will expand on this next, because Loras giving Sansa a red rose is an allegory in reverse of Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown of blue winter roses.

Knights & Queens of Love and Beauty:

Lyanna was a Mystery Knight AND was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty at the Tourney at Harrenhal.

Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree

Lyanna, as herself and as a mystery knight, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, defended the crannogman, Howland Reed, a bannerman of House Stark:

But late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long, a mystery knight appeared in the lists. Bran nodded sagely. […] “It was the little crannogman, I bet.” “No one knew,” said Meera, “but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face.” […] “Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called.” —ASOS - Bran II

Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty

Rhaegar Targaryen wearing an armor adorned with rubies (red) gave Lyanna a crown of winter roses (blue):

The Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight.

—AGOT - Eddard I

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Sansa as a “Knight”

During the Tourney in honor of King Joffrey’s Name Day, Sansa, as a lady armored with her courtesy and wits, defended and saved the life of Ser Dontos Hollard, a defenestrated knight turned fool, as I explained above.

Sansa as the Queen of Love and Beauty

Art credit: Loras Tyrell Gives Sansa Stark a Rose and the Hand’s Tournament by Jonathan Burton.

Sansa was the unofficial Queen of Love and Beauty at the Tourney of the Hand. GRRM wrote this passage as a resemble of the Tourney at Harrenhal, hiding hints and reversing colors.

Sansa attended the Tourney of the Hand at Kings Landing and met Petyr Baelish who told her that her mother, Catelyn Tully, was his Queen of Love and Beauty:

"Your mother was my queen of beauty once,” the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint. “You have her hair.” His fingers brushed against her cheek as he stroked one auburn lock. Quite abruptly he turned and walked away. —AGOT - Sansa II

Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers, wearing an armor adorned with sapphires (blue) gave Sansa a (red) rose:

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa’s fervent whisper, “Oh, he’s so beautiful.” Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy’s shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape. —AGOT - Eddard VII

During the second day of the tourney, Sansa wore the red rose in her hair:

The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. Sansa clutched at his arm. “Father, don’t let Ser Gregor hurt him,” she said. Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well. —AGOT - Eddard VII

The Tourney at the Gates of the Moon

And at this point in the Books, Sansa, as Alayne Stone, is organizing a tourney to elect the members of Robert Arryn’s personal guard, named the Brotherhood of the Winged Knights.

Alayne Stone’s betrothed, Harrold Hardyng, known as Harry the Heir, is competing in the tourney.

Since her betrothed is competing in the jousting and since she is daughter of Petyr Baelish, Lord Protector of the Vale, Alayne Stone has great chances to be crowned the Queen of Love and Beauty of the tourney.

The Tourney at Ashford Meadows

Sansa has also strong links with the Tourney at Ashford Meadows, but this is a matter for another time.

Failed betrothal to a Baratheon:

Both Lyanna and Sansa were betrothed with a Baratheon, Lyanna with Robert and Sansa with Joffrey:

If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done. —AGOT - Eddard I

There is also this parallel between Jenny of Oldstones, Lyanna & Sansa [I wrote about it here]:

Note the parallels between Duncan Targaryen, his betrothed Baratheon and Jenny of Oldstones & Rhaegar Targaryen, Lyanna Stark and her betrothed Robert Baratheon: A Targaryen prince breaking an engagement with a member of House Baratheon that then originates a rebellion.

And this: Sansa was betrothed with Joffrey “Baratheon” and the engagement was broken in the middle of a war with Robb Stark leading an army against King Joffrey, and Jon almost breaking his vows to join Robb’s army to avenge Ned’s death and rescue their sisters. All of which makes me think about these parallels: Sansa being a hostage in King’s Landing & Lyanna’s “abduction”, Ned’s death & Rickard’s death, Robb’s death & Brandon’s death. And that leaves Jon to possibly play the role of Ned Stark in the future.

Basically if Jon and Sansa happens, they will parallel two stories: Rhaegar and Lyanna, a Targaryen/Stark couple; and Ned and Cat, a Stark/Tully couple.

And right now in the Books, Sansa Stark, under the disguise of Alayne Stone, is betrothed with a Robert-like young man: Harrold Hardyng, also known as Harry the Heir:

Both orphaned boys

Both wards at the Vale

Both handsome and physically strong

Both linked to Jon Arryn and the Vale

Both fathered bastards in the Vale: Mya Stone // Alys Stone

Both involved in a conflict with a cousin: Robert killed his cousin Rhaegar and became King // If Robert Arryn dies, his cousin Harry will be new Lord Arryn.

Both betrothed to a Stark girl: Lyanna Stark // (Alayne Stone) Sansa Stark

Pleading Ned to protect part of themselves:

"Stop them," Sansa pleaded, "don't let them do it, please, please, it wasn't Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can't, it wasn't Lady, don't let them hurt Lady, I'll make her be good, I promise, I promise …" She started to cry.

—AGOT - Eddard III

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

—AGOT - Eddard IV

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

—AGOT - Eddard XIII

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Lyanna was pleading to her brother Ned to protect her son, while Sansa was pleading to her father Ned to protect her direwolf, Lady, part of Sansa’s soul. Later, Ned regretted failing Sansa…

Sansa’s pleading and repeating the word “promise”, triggered Ned’s trauma over Lyanna’s death. That also happened when Robert asked Ned to protect his children.

Targaryen Imagery:

Sansa’s chapters hide hints about Lyanna’s son, Jon Snow, true parentage.

Indeed, Sansa Stark has a very interesting imagery of white/off-white fabrics stained with blood and fire. I wrote more about it here.

Sansa’s Ivory silk dress stained with blood orange juice and ashes

“Liar,” Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

“Go ahead, call me all the names you want,” Sansa said airily. “You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace.” She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

“You have juice on your face, Your Grace,” Arya said.

It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. “You’re horrible,” she screamed at her sister. “They should have killed you instead of Lady!”

(…)

“Arya started it,” Sansa said quickly, anxious to have the first word. “She called me a liar and threw an orange at me and spoiled my dress, the ivory silk, the one Queen Cersei gave me when I was betrothed to Prince Joffrey. She hates that I’m going to marry the prince. She tries to spoil everything, Father, she can’t stand for anything to be beautiful or nice or splendid.”

(…)

“Sansa stalked away with her head up. She was to be a queen, and queens did not cry. At least not where people could see. When she reached her bedchamber, she barred the door and took off her dress. The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk. “I hate her!” she screamed. She balled up the dress and flung it into the cold hearth, on top of the ashes of last night’s fire. When she saw that the stain had bled through onto her underskirt, she began to sob despite herself. She ripped off the rest of her clothes wildly, threw herself into bed, and cried herself back to sleep.”

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

When the king’s herald moved forward, Sansa realized the moment was almost at hand. She smoothed down the cloth of her skirt nervously. She was dressed in mourning, as a sign of respect for the dead king, but she had taken special care to make herself beautiful. Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she’d had them dye it black and you couldn’t see the stain at all. She had fretted over her jewelry for hours and finally decided upon the elegant simplicity of a plain silver chain.

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa V

Take note that the ivory silk dress was a “betrothal gift” from Cersei, that Sansa later had to “dye it black” so the “blood and fire stain” couldn’t be seen at all.

Oh George! Your wording here is just genius!

Sansa’s bedclothes stained with her moonblood and fire

When she woke, the pale light of morning was slanting through her window, yet she felt as sick and achy as if she had not slept at all. There was something sticky on her thighs. When she threw back the blanket and saw the blood, all she could think was that her dream had somehow come true. She remembered the knives inside her, twisting and ripping. She squirmed away in horror, kicking at the sheets and falling to the floor, breathing raggedly, naked, bloodied, and afraid.

But as she crouched there, on her hands and knees, understanding came. “No, please,” Sansa whimpered, “please, no.” She didn’t want this happening to her, not now, not here, not now, not now, not now, not now.

Madness took hold of her. Pulling herself up by the bedpost, she went to the basin and washed between her legs, scrubbing away all the stickiness. By the time she was done, the water was pink with blood. When her maidservants saw it they would know. Then she remembered the bedclothes. She rushed back to the bed and stared in horror at the dark red stain and the tale it told. All she could think was that she had to get rid of it, or else they’d see. She couldn’t let them see, or they’d marry her to Joffrey and make her lay with him.

Snatching up her knife, Sansa hacked at the sheet, cutting out the stain. If they ask me about the hole, what will I say? Tears ran down her face. She pulled the torn sheet from the bed, and the stained blanket as well. I’ll have to burn them. She balled up the evidence, stuffed it in the fireplace, drenched it in oil from her bedside lamp, and lit it afire. Then she realized that the blood had soaked through the sheet into the featherbed, so she bundled that up as well, but it was big and cumbersome, hard to move. Sansa could get only half of it into the fire. She was on her knees, struggling to shove the mattress into the flames as thick grey smoke eddied around her and filled the room, when the door burst open and she heard her maid gasp.

In the end it took three of them to pull her away. And it was all for nothing. The bedclothes were burnt, but by the time they carried her off her thighs were bloody again. It was as if her own body had betrayed her to Joffrey, unfurling a banner of Lannister crimson for all the world to see.

—A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV

Even if the color of the bedclothes was not stated as white/off-white, it’s very probable that they were of white or an off-white color, like ivory. So, again, we find this very interesting imagery in Sansa’s chapters: white/off-white fabrics stained with blood and fire.

And this passage of a bed stained with blood that must be hidden makes me think about Ned’s dream of Lyanna’s death:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

—A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

So I think there is another pattern here: betrothal, marriage and giving birth.

As I said before, the ivory silk dress was a “betrothal gift” from Cersei; and, as Sansa stated, the bedclothes stained with her moonblood was a proof of her having reached her womanhood and thus able to do her duty and marry Joffrey and bear his children.

Moreover, after Sansa’s first moonblood, she had this conversation with Cersei:

“I don’t blame you. Between Tyrion and Lord Stannis, everything I eat tastes of ash. And now you’re setting fires as well. What did you hope to accomplish?”

Sansa lowered her head. “The blood frightened me.”

“The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You’ve had your first flowering, no more.”

Sansa had never felt less flowery. “My lady mother told me, but I … I thought it would be different.”

“Different how?”

“I don’t know. Less … less messy, and more magical.”

Queen Cersei laughed. “Wait until you birth a child, Sansa. A woman’s life is nine parts mess to one part magic, you’ll learn that soon enough … and the parts that look like magic often turn out to be messiest of all.” She took a sip of milk. “So now you are a woman. Do you have the least idea of what that means?”

“It means that I am now fit to be wedded and bedded,” said Sansa, “and to bear children for the king.”

—A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV

An ivory silk dress, a “betrothal gift” from Cersei, that Sansa later had to “dye it black”, so the “blood and fire stain” couldn’t be seen at all, sounds pretty much like Lyanna Stark’s betrothal to Robert Baratheon being “stained” by Rhaegar Targaryen. And then, of course, of Jon Snow hidden in the Wall as a Black Brother/Black Knight of the Night’s Watch.

Again, Sansa’s bedclothes stained with her flowering blood and then with fire to hide the stain, sounds pretty much like Lyanna Stark’s bed of blood after she gave birth Jon Snow, the baby that had to be hidden so his Targaryen identity couldn’t be seem at all.

A white wool cloak stained by blood and fire

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

—A Clash of Kings - Sansa VII

Out of the three passages with this imagery of white/off-white fabrics stained with blood and fire, this one, the one you asked for, has the more evident references of Jon Snow’s true parentage as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

Here we have Sansa huddled beneath a white kingsguard cloak stained by blood of the death during the Battle of the Blackwater and wildfire.

I think most of the readers get distracted from the Jon Snow’s true parentage hints here, because they romanticize this scene and believe it foreshadows some romantic future events for her involving the Hound, based in the fact that Sansa had covered herself with “the Hounds cloak” twice. But the relationship between Sansa and the white cloaks is -by far- larger than that; it has more to do with the ideals of knighthood and chivalry, than with the men wearing them.

As you can see, GRRM has plagued Sansa’s chapters with hints of Lyanna’s son, Jon Snow, true parentage.

Dead before their time:

Lyanna:

“She [Lyanna] was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.”

—AGOT - Arya II

Sansa:

And so many others were missing. Where had the rest of them gone? Sansa wondered. Vainly, she searched for friendly faces. Not one of them would meet her eyes. It was as if she had become a ghost, dead before her time.

—AGOT - Sansa V

Lyanna and Lady (part of Sansa’s soul) both died in the south, before their time.

Lyanna’s ghost has haunted Cersei over the years, Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar but ended married with Robert. Both Rhaegar and Robert loved Lyanna.

Lady is mentioned in the Books as a “shade”, a synonym for ghost. And after Ned’s death, Sansa became a ghost at the Red Keep’s court.

Sansa and Lady also haunt Cersei, as she remembered them both during her walk of atonement:

The queen began to see familiar faces. (...) She saw Ned Stark, and beside him little Sansa with her auburn hair and a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf.

—ADWD - Cersei II

At the end, only the remains of Lyanna and Lady returned home, to the North, to Winterfell.

Ladies of Winterfell:

Lyanna’s and Lady’s bones are buried at Winterfell, what makes them literally Ladies of Winterfell:

“She was more beautiful than that,” the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna’s face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. “Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?” His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. “She deserved more than darkness …” “She was a Stark of Winterfell,” Ned said quietly. “This is her place.”

—AGOT - Eddard I

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice. When it was over, he said, “Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell.” “All that way?” Jory said, astonished. “All that way,” Ned affirmed. “The Lannister woman shall never have this skin.”

—AGOT - Eddard III

Bran felt all cold inside. “She lost her wolf,” he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father’s guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady’s bones. Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned.

—AGOT - Bran VI

Lady’s death and his return to the North to rest in Winterfell is linked with Lyanna’s death and her own path back home. I wrote about this before:

Now, back to Lady’s death. We know that this event is a turning point in Sansa’s arc, but other than that, the paragraphs leading to the direwolf’s execution are laden with symbolism and foreshadowing, not only for Sansa, but for Ned as well.

During the “trial”, Ned decides that he will take Lady’s life himself, in order to avoid having a butcher like Ilyn Payne do the execution. Then, before he struck, he pronounced her name in the same fashion Robb and Jon called the name of their direwolves before they both died. This for me foreshadows Ned’s own death. Also, before Lady’s death, Ned pleads King Robert to change his decision on putting down the direwolf, appealing to the memory of Lyanna, the woman Robert loved. Similarly, before Ned’s execution at the steps of the Sept of Baelor, Sansa pleads King Joffrey to spare her father’s life, appealing to the love he has for her. As we know, both pleas fell on deaf ears and both Lady and Ned lost their lives; bringing the story full circle, as Ilyn Payne himself cut off Ned’s head.

Another interesting thing is that before Lady’s death we have direct and indirect references to Lyanna Stark. We have the direct reference when Ned appealed to the love Robert Baratheon bore Lyanna, in order to save Lady’s life, and the indirect one when he ordered Jory to choose four men to return Lady’s body to the north, to bury her in Winterfell. This order Ned gave to his men alludes to his own decision to take Lyanna’s body to Winterfell to be buried in the crypts, after her demise, brought on by her doomed love affair with Rhaegar Targaryen.

And to finish this post, here some gifsets that illustrate some of the discussed parallels:

Sansa Stark and Lyanna Stark + parallels

Pleading

She-wolves of Winterfell

Beautiful, Captivating Child-Women

Hidden Metal ft. hair parallels

Broken ‘Baratheon’ Engagements ft. more hair parallels

Fair Maidens

BONUS

Lyanna and Sansa in the first Show pilot:

In The Original, Terrible ‘Game Of Thrones’ Pilot That Never Aired, there was a scene where Cersei burned the feather that Robert left at Lyanna’s statue in the Winterfell Crypts:

The Cersei scene that might ruffle some feathers

Let’s begin with a defining scene between King Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark in the Winterfell crypts.

The scene that aired on HBO is slightly different from the scene in the Cushing script, but the gist is the same. Robert asks Ned to be his new Hand of the King, a position left open after Jon Arryn’s death. That’s when Robert places something small but highly symbolic on a statue of his onetime betrothed, Lyanna Stark: a feather.

And that pretty much sums up the sequence you saw in Season 1

But in the script found in the Cushing library, Queen Cersei plays a pivotal role in this exchange’s aftermath ― so much so that her involvement would have changed a Season 5 episode, the recent Season 8 teaser and possibly more.

The following scene is written into the pilot script found at Cushing and involves Cersei visiting the crypts right before the feast at Winterfell:

Cersei exits the crypts, crosses the courtyard and walks into the antechamber between the kitchen and the Winterfell great hall. The celebration for the king’s arrival is underway, and servants are rushing past her with food. The queen’s handmaidens make adjustments to her outfit and remove her heavy fur.

Then Cersei reveals something she has inside her sleeve:

“A word with the Stark girl”. I have no doubt this meant Sansa.

We didn’t get to watch this scene, Cersei never came down to the Winterfell Crypts, and she never took the feather Robert left there for Lyanna. But a few seasons later, we got to watch a scene of Sansa at the Winterfell Crypts, next to her aunt Lyanna’s statue, where she found the same feather that King Robert left there years ago...

...And Petyr Baelish told her the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar at the Tourney of Harrenhal.... I wrote more about it here.

I hope this is enough.

Thanks for your message and good night.

#Sansa Stark #Lyanna Stark #parallels #anon ask #Sansa & Lyanna parallels #Lyanna & Sansa parallels

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moonlitgleek · 5 years

Note

Had Lyanna married Robert, would he still have ended up the wifebeating drunk like in canon? He loved her.

In the words of a certain teenager:

Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.

This is what I think the idea that Robert may have been experienced a personality change if he’d married Lyanna miss - those character traits that manifested during Robert’s marriage to Cersei are not new. The unsavory parts of Robert’s character - the violence, the hedonism, the irresponsibility, the deflection of blame, the feeling of entitlement to women’s very bodies, those are in Robert’s nature. His marriage to Cersei may have witnessed an exacerbation of his worst tendencies but the signs were there long before that. Robert was sleeping around both before and during his betrothal to Lyanna, even right in the midst of a war he was supposedly fighting in her name and while he fully believed that she was being repeatedly raped. His glory in violence is well-documented, as is his tendency to lash out physically when angered. See Joffrey and the cat incident. See how he speaks of physical violence.

I sit on the damn iron seat when I must. Does that mean I don’t have the same hungers as other men? A bit of wine now and again, a girl squealing in bed, the feel of a horse between my legs? Seven hells, Ned, I want to hit someone.

[Robert] stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. “I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?”

I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I’ve won it.

Yes, Robert. Please tell me how alive you felt fighting a devastating war, while your brothers were starving in Storm’s End and your betrothed was being repeatedly raped as you’re fond of yelling every time someone tries to oppose your desire to kill children. Do throw a hissy fit when more prudent people try to stop you from participating in a melee because you long to hit someone. Show me how utterly befuddled you are over the concept of fighting someone without hitting them. This is so making me believe that your regret over hitting Cersei is sincere, even more than when you presented your reasoning as it not being kingly.

Also preceding Robert’s marriage to Cersei is his tendency to treat women as a possession. I don’t see much difference in his attitude between

The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown … it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe … and mine again, as she was meant to be.

and

Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold … the way she guards her cunt, you’d think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs.

Speaking of the woman he supposedly loves as a possession that belongs to him conveys the same entitlement he shows to Cersei’s body. See also his “he has Lyanna now and I have her” as if Lyanna and Cersei are mere objects to be had, prizes to be awarded to the victor. The man thinks he is entitled to sex from his wife and considers Cersei cold because of her refusal to make herself available for sex. For this.

For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. “You hurt me,” she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. “It was not me, my lady,” he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. “It was the wine. I drink too much wine.” To wash down his admission, he reached for his horn of ale. As he raised it to his mouth, she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard she chipped a tooth [..] He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights.

That was during the first year of their marriage. Robert started hurting Cersei in bed right from the beginning but still holds her to blame for not wanting to have sex with him. Because nothing is ever Robert Baratheon’s fault. No, no. Rhaegar won Lyanna. Cersei made him hit her. Jon Arryn made him marry Cersei. He didn’t want the throne, Ned, why did you make him take the throne so he has to like, work and stuff?

Robert Baratheonis fundamentally characterized by his inability to bear responsibility. He has been eschewing it since he was 16 and his parents went down on the Windblown... and Roberts turns around, leaves his brothers and his new lordship to go hang out in the Eyrie with Ned and Jon Arryn. He sleeps around with no remorse to the point where he makes light of cheating to Ned’s face because “no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed”. He likes his wine too much and shows no intention to ever restrain himself. And he has a very specific idea of a woman’s place in a marriage and what she should and shouldn’t do, down to her sexual availability.

The mirth curdled on Robert’s face. “The woman tried to forbid me to fight in the melee. She’s sulking in the castle now, damn her. Your sister would never have shamed me like that.”

Sorry, Bobby B. Doesn’t sound like Lyanna Stark to me. She would have had about as much tolerance to your crap as Cersei ever did. Justifiably.

That’s why I don’t actually buy that Robert loved Lyanna. Despite his claims, Robert displays a staggering ignorance of Lyanna’s character every single time he speaks of her that it becomes very apparent that he isn’t in love with her but rather with his idea of her, a romanticized imaginary creation of his that he projects all his expectations of an ideal wife on. But that Lyanna does not exist, and Robert knows nothing about the real Lyanna, as Ned points out every time Robert starts blabbing about what Lyanna would have wanted or would have done. The real Lyanna, the one who donned armor and jousted for Howland Reed’s honor, the one who disapproved of Robert before she was even 14, the one who might have carried a sword had her father allowed it, that girl would clash with Robert just as much as Cersei did. She would suffer his reportedly terrible rage and his drunkenness and his affairs just as gladly as Cersei ever did. And Robert would have those episodes because his expectations wouldn’t be fulfilled and his fantasy of Lyanna would give way to the real person, stubborn, willful and unladylike as she was.

Furthermore, I will always push back against the implication that Robert became that abusive despicable person because of Cersei. No, he became that person because of Robert. Acting like Robert would have been a better person if only he’d married Lyanna puts the blame of Robert’s own faults and failings on Cersei (who is not to blame for her own abuse) and expects Lyanna to be some sort of restraint on Robert’s behavior, which is neither her job or responsibility. Neither woman is the fulcrum of Robert’s morality nor are they in charge of his moral and ethical reform. They are not his parents. They are not his teachers. They are not responsible for his conduct. Robert Baratheon is a grown man who is responsible for his own behavior, try as he might to blame his actions on any and everything in sight.

Finally, I just have to ask: where did the idea that Robert’s love for someone curbs his worst tendencies come from anyway? One of this story’s main arcs is literally built on the premise that Robert would have killed Jon Snow if he’d known who he was, irrespective of his “love” for Lyanna or love for Ned. Robert’s love for Ned certainly did not prevent him from condoning and ordering the murder of children to Ned’s mounting fury, did it? Not even when that love was directly invoked did it matter.

All Ned could do was take [Sansa] in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. “Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please.”

How did that work out for Ned, Sansa and Lady?

#Anon asks #ask box #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #valyrianscrolls #robert baratheon #lyanna stark #cersei lannister #ned stark #bobby bob x his imaginary friend lyanna #I am team let robert baratheon be accountable for his own moral failings

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tomakeitbeautifultolive · 6 years

Text

Hate Rhaegar Targaryen? Here's why you're wrong.

Re: “Fuck Rhaegar Targaryen”: A lesson on how to read between the lines in fiction to learn the truth.

On George R. R. Martin:

“I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.”

On Elia Martell: Considering GRRM's self-described gardening style, Dorne and its culture were almost certainly built around Elia Martell. Rhaegar's wife was polyamorous, and the author needed a way to tell us that, thus the culture of Dorne was given this attribute.

Further, while Rhaegar crowning Lyanna queen of love and beauty is known as the moment all the smiles died - it's emphasized that “Elia’s reaction to the event remains unknown” ...Well isn’t that convenient?

On House Martell: Do even the Martells blame the Targaryens for what happened to Elia and her children? Here’s what it says in the wiki:

“During the Sack of King's Landing, Ser Gregor Clegane raped and murdered Elia and also killed her son, Prince Aegon Targaryen. Another Lannister knight, Ser Amory Lorch killed her daughter, Princess Rhaenys Targaryen. After hearing of these deaths, Oberyn attempted to raise Dorne for the exiled Prince Viserys Targaryen.

Oberyn and his brother Doran worked in secret for years planning on bringing an end to the reign of King Robert I Baratheon and destroying House Lannister. Oberyn traveled to Braavos, where Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen were living with Ser Willem Darry. Oberyn and Willem signed a secret marriage pact, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness, promising Viserys the hand of Princess Arianne Martell in marriage, in return for Dorne's help in reclaiming the Iron Throne from House Baratheon.”

If Rhaegar was solely responsible for Elia’s death, why would Oberyn work to align Dorne with the Targaryens once again, to put them back in power? Because he only wants revenge on the guilty parties: Lannister and Clegane.

On Aegon and his sister wives: Aegon had two wives. A first wife married out of duty, and a second wife married out of desire. Sound familiar? Good. It's supposed to. GRRM uses historical parallels like this as hints all the time, and Rhaegar’s obsession with the three heads of the dragon and naming his children after these historical relatives is a way to link them in our minds.

The fact that Rhaegar likely believed he needed three children to fulfill a prophecy - Aegon, Rhaenys and presumably Visenya... is also a hint that Elia, who could not bear him a third child, might've even encouraged Rhaegar to take another wife.

Sound absurd? Rhaegar tells his wife, as she holds his newborn son, that there must be one more, as is seen in Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying:

“There must be one more. The dragon has three heads.”

"History is written by the victors."

On Robert Baratheon: Virtually everyone had a good opinion of Rhaegar expect for Robert Baratheon. The victor. This man harbored a negative opinion of the prince based on jealousy and a personal vendetta.

Ned says to Robert:

“You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert. You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath.”

Think Lyanna is just some silly trollop? Try again. The woman who would run away with an already-married man had this to say about Robert:

“Robert will never keep to one bed. I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale. Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature.”

Again, Rhaegar and Robert seem to be complete opposites in every way. So if Robert is the type to whore around on his wife, perhaps that's yet another hint that Rhaegar didn't, wouldn't, and wasn't. Rhaegar's reputation as a villain stems from this man alone, Robert Baratheon, who was not a good person.

Even on the show, Bran confirms that the Rebellion was built on a lie - so, why do so many opt to believe Robert Baratheon, a terrible king, husband, father and person - over three of the noblest men in the series - Barristan Selmy, Ned Stark, and Arthur Dayne?

On Rhaegar Targaryen: Arthur Dayne, one of the most chivalrous and noble knights, was Rhaegar's oldest friend.

Ned Stark never once has a negative thought about Rhaegar, even letting us know that he didn’t think Rhaegar the type of man to cheat on his wife:

“For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.”

Even Jorah understands who Rhaegar was, time and again telling Daenerys how different her brother Viserys is to Rhaegar, that Rhaegar was the last dragon and Viserys is “less than the shadow of a snake”. (...and I really should not have to recount why Viserys is a terrible person. That shit ain’t subtle at all.)

When Daenerys saves the life of a lamb girl, she says:

“I will not have her harmed. I claim her. Do as I command you, or Khal Drogo will know the reason why.”

She and Jorah then have this exchange:

“You are your brother's sister, in truth.” “Viserys?” “No. Rhaegar.”

Lastly, Barristan Selmy, who watched Rhaegar grow up, has this to say:

“Even as a child, your brother Viserys oft seemed to be his father's son, in ways that Rhaegar never did.”

So we've got two people now, telling us Rhaegar and Viserys were different. Viserys is directly compared to Aerys, whereas Daenerys is compared to Rhaegar after she saves someone's life and helps them.

When Daenerys asks Barristan whether there was any good to be said of her father, he replies:

“There is, your Grace. Of him, and those who came before him. Your grandfather Jaehaerys and his brother, their father Aegon, your mother... and Rhaegar. Him most of all.”

Barristan also confirms Rhaegar’s feelings toward Elia:

“Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her.”

On the show, Barristan tells Daenerys of Rhaegar's character. Confirming that Rhaegar found joy in singing, not killing. Recounting tales about how Rhaegar would sing to the common folk, giving his money away to them, to orphanages, or taking his lifelong friend and guard out for drinks.

On who is actually to blame for Elia's death:

Aerys Targaryen, Tywin Lannister & Gregor Clegane (Duh)

It's not Rhaegar’s fault for neglecting to assume a lifelong House Targaryen ally would betray him and his family. If you think this, you are victim blaming.

(Victim blaming occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially responsible for the harm that befell them.)

Tywin waited until he knew which side would win the Rebellion before picking either. Fuck, Tywin wasn't even certain he'd betray the Targaryens!

Was Rhaegar aware of all the ways his father offended Tywin Lannister? Oh, absolutely. Which is part of the reason he was almost certainly conspiring to de-throne his father, for offending the entire damned realm left and right!

“When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken.”

Jaime tells us that it was not Rhaegar who forbade Elia’s escape, but Aerys:

“Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side.”

Jaime feels immense guilt that lingers for not protecting Rhaegar's family. He blames himself, not the prince, even defending himself to the ghost of Rhaegar, who tells him:

“I left my wife and children in your hands.” “I never thought he'd hurt them. I was with the king...”

Even Jaime Lannister never thought the children would be hurt. Tywin’s fucking son. You'd have to be pretty daft, at this point, if you think Rhaegar is the one responsible for the murder of his children. Further, note that Jaime’s internal characterization of Rhaegar cares about his wife, Elia, and their children.

On Jon Snow: Love Jon Snow but hate Rhaegar Targaryen? Too bad. Boy was written to be just like his daddy, and no, I don’t mean Ned.

Like his father, he was “born in grief” and is described as sullen, and his father, melancholy. They've got similar lean builds, dark-hued eyes, both observant and good fighters, described as noble, honorable and good (and ‘comely’). Even the way Jon died echoes Rhaegar’s death:

“Jon fell to his knees. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. 'Ghost,' he whispered.”

“Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name...”

Lastly, in the show, when Jon meets Daenerys, she says, “We all enjoy what we’re good at” and Jon replies, “I don’t.”

Just like Rhaegar. Because, after all, Barristan told Daenerys that Rhaegar “never liked killing”. Jon Snow is his father’s son.

To any Rhaegar Targaryen haters out there who managed to pick up on literally zero of the above clues - You badly need to work on your deductive reasoning skills.

Also, please never write a book.

#rhaegar defense squad #rhaegar targaryen #elia martell #meta #you guys know I'm not usually this salty...#but that's how sick I am of seeing this man regularly insulted on my dash

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crazycoke-addict · 5 years

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Sansa has every right not to trust Daenerys

Since their first meeting Sansa and Daenerys hasn’t seen eye to eye with each other. Sansa doesn’t trust her and Daenerys doesn’t like the way Sansa is treating since she got to Winterfell. When arriving to Winterfell, Daenerys compliments on Sansa’s beauty and you can see it as a nice gesture on Daenerys’ side, however sansa would see it as Daenerys not getting on her bad side but always wanting something which is the North. Remember, when Jon and Sansa went to Bear Island, Sansa complimented Lyanna Mormont’s name by saying she was named after her aunt and how Lyanna Stark was a great beauty however Lyanna Mormomt shut her down knowing that they didn’t come here to talk. One of the reasons why Sansa may not trust Daenerys is because of her being a Targaryen. Sansa’s grandfather and Uncle was killed by mad king Aerys Targaryen whom is Daenerys Targaryen and around that time Sansa still thinks that Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped Lyanna Stark. Although we shouldn’t blame the child for their family’s crime and we been told that Daenerys isn’t her father, the more the show progress the more madder Daenerys gets. The reason why Daenerys isn’t completely mad is because she has a small council that she listens to however after ever since she stepped foot to Westeros her sanity is on the line.

Although I’m fan of both characters, I don’t blame Sansa for not trusting Daenerys because Sansa has been around people who are hungry for power and that’s what she sees in Daenerys because I believe that if Daenerys chose to help the north with the battle without demanding Jon to bend the knee meaning that Jon wouldn’t have given up the north’s independence and Sansa sees what Daenerys has done for them than she would see her as a good ruler, however the one problem is will Daenerys give the north their independence that they have been fighting for. What’s funny about this is when Yara asked for independence for the Iron Islands, Daenerys granted her wish and even said that if the other kingdoms want their independence than they can have it, but now that Sansa confronts her, Daenerys is now hesitant to even give the north independence. This is similar to a thread I found on twitter, that Daenerys ancestors conquered the seven kingdoms to be ruled by one king, Daenerys always said how she wanted to end slavery, how can she when the seven kingdoms are in invisible chains. It also doesn’t make any sense that Daenerys keeps saying she wants to break the wheel but still wants the iron throne, the only way to break the wheel is to destroy the iron throne have the seven kingdoms break apart.

I found a post on tumblr about the scene were Sansa telling Tyrion about Jon. The post actually makes good points as well, analysing Sansa’s emotions and how Tyrion is trying defend Daenerys and Sansa pointed out that he’s afraid of her. Tyrion was never afraid of Joffrey Baratheon, he would slap and didn’t kneel to him during his wedding knowing what Joffrey is Capable of, but now he’s afraid of someone whom he’s loyal to. Everything click in Sansa’s Head realising that it would have to be Daenerys who demanded Jon not to tell anyone about his parentage and why Jon told Arya and Sansa sword they won’t tell anyone because Jon knows what Daenerys might do to them. During her time in Meereen, Daenerys didn’t give masters or people who have done crimes a fair trial. She hanged the masters like they did with children because she thought they were all bad, without even knowing that most of them oppose slavery and tried stop it than when she left she gave the place to a man whom has said that the only thing that he’s great is killing and sex, not ruling. People believe that the death of Missandei triggered Daenerys to now thinking of burning the kingslanding now like she didn’t thought about it until now, however earlier now when Tyrion and Varys told her not to the burn down the city that she came here to save and also convince Cersei to surrender, but Daenerys knows that Cersei isn’t going to surrender that easily, she says “Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps it’s good to let the people see that Daenerys stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed, and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know who to blame when the sky falls upon them”. Basically if she has to burn kingslanding and innocent people have to die than so be it, they can blame Cersei for not surrendering.

#game of thrones #sansa stark #daenerys targaryen

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winelover1989 · 7 years

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The Third & final Jonerys chapter transition in A Storm of Swords was absolutely mind blowing. There were some awesome parallels in the first when Dany is en route to Astapor & Jon is on his way to Mance’s camp, both about to have their morals challenged & devising a manipulative plan. The second when Jon becomes involved with Ygritte & Dany gets her army of Unsullied surprisingly had some great parallels too. But this transition was two of the coolest chapters I’ve read back to back so far, with so many hidden Jonerys treasure!

1. Jon had his first romantic day dream about his idea of Ygritte who wasn’t a Wildling “If I could show her Winterfell . . . give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us.” And it’s just so cute, like hang in there Jon, you’ll meet Dany soon. Dany too meets Daario for the first time & develops a little crush on him. But on a sad note about fantasy love lives, Dany shares that Viserys always blamed her for Robert’s rebellion, that she was born too late, for if she was born early & wed Rhaegar, his love triangle with Elia & Lyanna wouldn’t have started a war.

2. Jon worries if Ygritte will betray him if he told her his secret & he worries that if he left, would the Wildlings punish her for his treachery. Dany too worries if Darrio will betray her since it’s prophesied that she’ll know two more treasons for gold & love.

3. Ygritte insults Jon for being a kneeler & throws her condescending phrase ‘You know nothing, Jon Snow’ more than a few times. The men Dany meets before her seige on Yunkai, the leaders of masters of Yunkai & the sellswords, Stromcrows & Second Sons, guarding the city insult her being a woman with lewd & rapey comments.

4. Jon & the wildlings are south of the Wall & it’s the first time Jon stands up to Ygritte challenging the Wildling ways of raiding & raping and tells her they won’t win this war. He acknowledges the truth of their relationship, “Ygritte set the trap and Mance Rayder pushed me into it.” And he finally puts his foot down, “He was going to have to find some way to betray these men, and when he did they would die. He did not want their friendship, any more than he wanted Ygritte’s love.”

Dany too stands up to Jorah once and for all when he tells her that she can’t trust Daario, “Do you think I’m still some virgin girl, that I cannot hear the words behind the words? You have been a better friend to me than any I have known, a better brother than Viserys ever was. You are the first of my Queensguard, the commander of my army, my most valued counselor, my good right hand. I honor and respect and cherish you—but I do not desire you, Jorah Mormont, and I am weary of your trying to push every other man in the world away from me, so I must needs rely on you and you alone. It will not serve, and it will not make me love you any better.”

5. Jon feels lonely without Ghost, “Jon wondered where Ghost was now. Had he gone to Castle Black, or was he was running with some wolfpack in the woods? He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off. Even with Ygritte sleeping beside him, he felt alone.”

While playing with her dragons, Dany has a similar thought: (She felt very lonely all of a sudden. Mirri Maz Duur had promised that she would never bear a living child. House Targaryen will end with me. That made her sad. “You must be my children,” she told the dragons, “my three fierce children. Arstan says dragons live longer than men, so you will go on after I am dead.”)

6. They both play the same game with Ghost & Drogon: “Drogon looped his neck around to nip at her hand. His teeth were very sharp, but he never broke her skin when they played like this. Dany laughed, and rolled him back and forth until he roared, his tail lashing like a whip.”

In the previous book, Jon does the same, “Jon squatted to let the direwolf close his jaws around his wrist, tugging his hand back and forth. It was a game they played.”

7. Jon tells Ygritte a story of a Targaryen queen who has many parallels with Dany & her dynamic with her husband is compared to Jonerys.

Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. “Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He’s called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she’d worn when she spent the night among them.”

Bran mentions in an earlier chapter that she gifted these very lands, where Jon & Ygritte were at this moment looking at the tower in question, to the Night’s Watch for their sustenance, because she thought they were all very brave.

Whitebeard shares stories of Rhargar’s life with Dany & there’s a part which makes him sound a lot like Jon,

“Perhaps so, Your Grace.” Whitebeard paused a moment. “But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy.”

“You make him sound so sour,” Dany protested.

“Not sour, no, but . . . there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense . . .” The old man hesitated again.

“Say it,” she urged. “A sense . . . ?”

“. . . of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days.”

8. Jon’s struggle at not wanting to kill the old man when the Wildlings force him to prove himself, kind of resonated for Dany’s desire to win Yunkai with strategy & not bloodshed.

9. What I loved the most was how basass the ending for both these chapters were, Jon’s escape from the Wildlings was so cool in a dark rainy night only briefly illuminated by thunder. Bran’s direwolf helping Jon make the escape. It was just really cool! I was fangirling so hard and I loved that once he ran, Ygritte doesn’t ambush him like in the show. Dany’s Mhysa moment outside the gates of Yunkai is also so much better in the books.

10. And lastly, I loved how this was the ending for the Jon chapter before it transitioned to Dany reaching Yunkai, “Thunder rumbled softly in the distance, but above him the clouds were breaking up. Jon searched the sky until he found the Ice Dragon, (it’s a constellation in this world but damn George, the foreshadowing) then turned the mare north for the Wall and Castle Black. The throb of pain in his thigh muscle made him wince as he put his heels into the old man’s horse. I am going home, he told himself. But if that was true, why did he feel so hollow?” In a way Jon’s lack of a home resonates with Dany’s greatest yearning too and it was interesting that earlier this chapter, he thinks about what the Wildlings might be saying about him in the Old Tongue, “Get back where you belong, Jon guessed. But where is that?” (Gif : scarygritte)

Then Dany’s chapter begins with her sizing up Yunkai’s defences. (Gif:rebloggy)

Interesting little nuggets:

I also liked that as Jon was judging how undisciplined the freefolk were in terms of warfare and Dany had the same thought about some of the former slaves of Astapor who had stolen a few weapons & joined her camp. She agreed that they were slowing the camp but she tells Jorah that they are free people & she’s not going to tell to leave if they wish to come along.

Another tiny parallel, Dany comes up with her own version of ‘You know nothing, Jon Snow’, “I am only a young girl and do not understand the ways of war.” She uses this phrase sarcastically with everyone she negotiates with and says it one last time before she lays out her pretty clever battle plans.

This observation seemed a bit tinfoil to be but it was funny that the leader of the sellsword company, Stormcrows runs away when Dany’s forces attack their camps while they are drunk on the wine she sends them and Jon is exposed as a crow to the wildlings and he runs away during a storm. This one gave me a laugh but it doesn’t seem very legit.

Overall, I LOVED these two chapters like I’ve loved nothing in ASOS, so much action and goodness packed into two chapters. I live for Jon & Dany chapter transitions like these where I get quality Jonerys content like this back to back!

#Vin reads asoiaf #asoiaf #Jonerys #Jonerys treasures #jonerys parallels #Jonerys chapter transition #Jon snow #daenerys targaryen #Snowstorm

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406ink-blog · 7 years

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Time stands still

Daenerys and Jon face challenges after arriving at Winterfell

Author’s note: Fluffy, smutty fanfiction ahead

Jon sat on the edge of the bed and rubbed his face in his hands, scratching at his beard over and over, before looking straight forward with unseeing eyes.

Daenerys felt hot tears threatening to spill from her eyes to her cheeks. Why didn’t he say anything?

Only a few hours earlier as Missandei had been dressing her, struggling a bit more than usual to button the bodice of the Queen’s dress, did the two suddenly reach a simultaneous conclusion: Daenerys was pregnant. Their eyes connected in the looking glass, sharing a knowing look. Dany had thought the month-and-a-half at sea en route to White Harbor from Dragonstone had been to blame for her “shrinking” wardrobe; she was not used to being so confined and therefore inactive, nor eating so well, for so long. Never had she thought, for even a moment that she could be pregnant.

Missandei finally broke the silence to ask when Daenerys had last bled, pointing out the gentle swell of the queen’s once-flat belly, her now fuller breasts, her darkening areolas and suddenly tender nipples. Dany’s red flower had not bloomed on a regular basis for many years, she truly had no idea. When Missandei asked, “Who might the father be, Your Grace?” Daenerys had shot her a disbelieving look and replied, “I believe you know the man of whom we speak.”

After all, there were no secrets between Dany and Missandei, her most trusted advisor. Missandei had found Jon Snow in Her Grace’s bed in the morning on more than one occasion. She had changed the queen’s linens, the evidence of their nightly activities plain as day on the silk sheets. She knew from their girl-talk during Dany’s baths and dressing routine that Dany and Jon had lain together every night on the voyage to White Harbor, and more-often-than-not they coupled two or three times a night, as though no amount of love making could sate their desire for one another. In truth, it was a desperate attempt to make up for all the nights they had spent apart before finding one another, and for all the nights they may never have if they failed to defeat the Night King in the Great War to come.

A visit with Maester Wolkan had confirmed what they suspected. Missandei had held her hand as the Maester had performed his examination and given them the news, and they both had sat for long moments in silence after he quit the chambers she had been given on her arrival at Winterfell. Missandei was again the one to finally break the silence, “Are you happy for this news Your Grace?”

Dany smiled. “So happy. Missandei, I never thought I would bear another child after …” her voice cracked, thick with emotion. Missandei turned and embraced her friend and queen. “I am so happy for you both. What do you think Lord Snow will say? How will you tell him Your Grace?”

“I expect it will be a shock,” Dany said, worry furrowing her brow. “I told him more than once that I could not have children, though he did say I might consider the mage was not an ‘accurate source’ for that information.” She smiled at that.

“I believe he will be happy for this news Your Grace. Every man desires heirs. Perhaps he will propose a marriage. He is an honorable man and Lord Snow explained to me that he, himself, is a bastard - that is, his mother and father weren’t mar…”

“I know what a bastard is,” Dany cut off her friend, and gave her a squinty, disbelieving look as she continued, “This is unfortunate timing, but then, when would be a good time?” She gave a small, bitter laugh. “I need to tell him Missandei, I need to tell him now. Can you send for him?”

30 minutes later, Jon Snow knocked at her door and she called out for him to enter. They were more formal with one another now than they had been on the seas. They had spent every night together on the ship – either Jon came to her cabin or she to his – and had made love so many times she had lost count. Afterward, they spent hours talking while Jon held her close, his hand twined with hers.

They had told one another their life stories in the still of the night, the only noise their breathing and the gentle slap of the waves on the side of the ship. Dany spoke of many things to Jon, both happy and sad, some that she had never told another living soul. Jon pointedly asked her what she had meant, when during their first meeting, Dany said she had been ‘sold like a brood mare, raped and defiled.’ She had not been prepared for the flood of emotion as she spoke of her brother Viserys selling her to Khal Drogo, of her subsequent rape at the tender age of 13 and many nights thereafter, of overcoming her trauma to love the Khal, the devastating loss of both her husband – even though it had been a mercy, it had been at her hand, had been her fault – and their child, and the guilt and shame she still carried for all of it. Jon held her tenderly as she cried for what felt like the first time in many years, his heart overflowing with compassion and genuine concern for his queen, but there was something else; something deeper that made Jon rage inside like a wild animal at the pain and betrayal she had experienced at the hands of others. He loved her.

He was thankful those that had hurt her were already dead, otherwise he would have ended them himself. No one would ever hurt her again as long as he still drew breath. Longclaw, the great bastard Valyrian steel sword given to him by Lord Commander Mormont, would drip with the blood of anyone who would harm her. He silently vowed it would be so. He took no joy in killing, but could not stop his mind from conjuring an image of himself cutting down Daenerys’ enemies - shattering the Night King into a million shards of ice, gutting Cersei Lannister as she sat on the Iron Throne. Jon had no delusions about the possibility of his death - never had had any. He had accepted the truth - that he was the shield that guards the realms of men, and would lay down his life if need be, he thought bitterly. Only gladly would he lay down his life for his queen, Daenerys Stormborn, his Dany.

For her part, questions had poured out of Daenerys’ mouth as though she couldn’t help herself, curious and impatient to know everything there was to know about Jon Snow. Tracing a slender finger over each of the scars on his chest and abdomen, she asked him how he came to leave the Night’s Watch when the vow was for life, how he came to be stabbed in the heart, and how he had survived his wounds. Jon explained how his men had labeled him a ‘traitor’ for allowing the Wildlings through the Wall, and had killed him for it, expecting Dany to disbelieve that he had actually died, but she did not. He told her of the red priestess, Melisandre, who had brought him back to life, and her belief that the Lord of Light had resurrected him, for what purpose he still did not fully understand. He also told her what is was to grow up a bastard, Catelyn Stark’s hatred of him and the coldness and distance from his family he suffered as a result, and of his first love, Ygritte.

An intimate group, those closest to Daenerys and Jon – Jon, Davos, Daenerys, Missandei, Tyrion, Grey Worm, Sansa, Arya, and Gilly – had assembled in the Stark crypt beneath Winterfell at the request of Bran and Sam. Jon had assumed the meeting location was to keep whatever information they had to share from the ears of the wrong people. They stood together in the cool, damp, darkness, the only light coming from the sparsely spaced torches on the walls and the few candles at the feet of the statuary.

When Bran began to tell his revelation – that Jon was the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, and not Ned Stark’s bastard as they all had believed, Jon’s knees had nearly buckled. “This changes nothing,” Sansa had said, matter-of-factly. “You are still a Stark. You are still our blood. And you are still the leader the North has chosen, the King in the North.” Clearly the implications of what Bran had said hadn’t fully sunk in to everyone present. His throat dry, Jon’s gravelly voice broke the silence, “I’m still a bastard. And I’m not a Stark. I was born in Dorne - am I even still of the North? It doesn’t matter. I will still fight for the North, bleed for the North, die for the North if need be.”

Daenerys stood beside Jon, so close her shoulder brushed his arm. He could feel the heat she put off in the cool darkness, through even his thick leather jerkin and fur-lined cloak. She sensed there was more dark words to come from Brandon Stark, from this Three-Eyed Raven. In the cool darkness, her hand brushed against Jon’s, and she caught his little finger with her own, a silent show of solidarity and support. He accepted it gladly, twining his large finger around her small one.

“That’s not entirely accurate,” Sam interjected with a bit of trepidation, his eyes beseeching Bran to continue. Bran went on, “Sam told me Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in a secret ceremony in Dorne, after Rhaegar had his marriage to Elia Martell annulled. I used my abilities to travel there and see it. You were never a bastard Jon; you are Rhaegar Targaryen’s trueborn son. Your true name is Aegon Targaryen and you are the heir to the Iron Throne.” There were several sharp intakes of breath before a hushed silence fell over the group, each of them wondering what the ramifications of Bran’s confession would truly mean – for the North, for all of them, for the realm.

To Jon, it felt as though all the air had been sucked out of the room. The only thing that kept him standing was the warmth of Dany’s small fingers entwined with his own. She hadn’t let go, not even when Bran told them that Jon, and not she, was the true heir to the Iron Throne. Somehow, Jon knew, she never would.

It seemed like everyone started to talk all at once, their voices slicing through the quiet of the crypt. The echoing din made Jon’s head feel as though it would split in two. “Enough,” he said finally when he could stand it no longer. The voices stopped, all eyes on him. “I need time to think, I need peace and quiet. Leave me and do not speak of this to anyone.” Respecting his wishes, everyone turned and began to make their way to the stairs leading up out of the crypt.

Tyrion lingered a moment longer than the others before he turned to go; his eyes narrowed and shrewd and missing nothing in the darkness – certainly not the laced fingers of his queen and the bastard. He had seen Jon go into Daenerys’ cabin on the ship, and it did not take much thinking to connect the dots in Tyrion’s troubled mind: they were fucking – no, not just fucking – they were in love. Gods help them all, he thought, for love is the death of duty.

Dany saw Tyrion hesitate, felt certain her amethyst eyes betrayed her true feelings for Jon, but it was her actions which left no question. She did not try to pull her hand away; she wouldn’t let go and neither would he. She looked at Jon as though for the first time, her eyes meeting his in the torchlight. “Not you”, he said, obsidian eyes blazing, his voice a velvet whisper. “Never you.” She embraced him then, her arms going around his shoulders. “Blood of my blood,” she said whispered against his neck.

Blood of my blood. Jon never had a mother, never had anyone to comfort him or hold him or assure him that everything would be alright. And he was so tired, so weary, so weak. He’d been fighting all his life. In this world, men didn’t show emotion and they certainly didn’t cry or need comforting from women, but Dany’s embrace felt good to Jon. It felt right. Daenerys comforting him didn’t make Jon feel weak, it made him feel strong. For the first time, he felt he had someone who had faced and overcome the same adversities as he had - someone who understood him completely.

The group had agreed to keep the truth about Jon’s parentage to themselves for the time being. Northern politics were complicated enough as it was, more so now that Jon had bent the knee to Daenerys. The Northern lords had no trouble believing in the army of the dead or the Night King, but asking them to believe that Daenerys Targaryen was not there to conquer them proved a difficult feat.

Here in Winterfell, with all eyes on them, the freedom Jon and Daenerys had to continue their physical and metaphorical exploration of one another became little and less. They certainly had less privacy for their wanton abandon, and less time to slake their thirst for one another as nearly every waking moment was spent in preparation the possibility the Wall would fall and the Night King and his undead army would come pouring through the breach.

Not to mention that almost immediately upon arriving, Jon had been rocked by the revelation of his true parentage. The nights had become long and empty for them both, as there were too many people about in the castle to allow them to sneak into one another’s chambers, even in the middle of the night. The fact that Jon was a Targaryen changed nothing for them; in fact it made their connection run deeper than the name they both shared, deeper even than blood.

Jon had been shaken deeply by the information Bran and Sam had told him; everything he thought he knew about himself had been a lie. Robert’s Rebellion had been built on lies; how many tens of thousands had died for Rhaegar and Lyanna’s forbidden love? To protect him, the honorable Lord Eddard Stark, who Jon had thought was his father, had lived a lie. It wasn’t that Jon felt his father had abandoned his honor; quite the opposite. Ned Stark had been so honorable, so loyal in fact, that he wrapped Jon in the cloak of his honor and sacrificed his own reputation and even the trust of his wife for his duty. His father had chosen the hard way.

We all do our duty when there’s no cost to it. Honor comes easily then, Jon thought remembering the words of Maester Aemon. Yet sooner or later, in every man’s life, there comes a day when it is not easy; a day when you must choose. Yes, the fact that the honorable Lord Eddard Stark had done his duty when the cost was so great; that fact shook Jon most of all, because he realized, he felt the same honor and sense of duty to Daenerys. There would be no sacrifice too great for his queen if he the day came when he had to make that choice.

But as far as Stark or Targaryen, Jon felt he did not have to choose. In his heart, Ned Stark was still his father, still with him always. His mother was a Stark. He was the blood of the wolf. He had yet to learn what it meant to be a Dragon, but he was a dragon still. There was no denying his blood. He was a dragon raised by wolves. He could be a Stark and a Targaryen. He could be ice and fire; a dragon and a wolf.

Jon and Dany had managed only a handful of moments alone over the last weeks since they’d been in Winterfell. There had been one or two stolen kisses in the Gods wood and a brief moment in the cool darkness of the Winterfell crypt before the statue of Jon’s mother, Lyanna. Her body had ached for Jon’s touch, the sort of physical pain an alcoholic goes through when there’s no drink to be had. In truth, he had ached for her just as much.

They had crossed paths in the hallway late one night; Daenerys had been returning from the privy, Jon had been returning to his chambers from the library. His eyes locked on her, like a wolf stalking its prey. He had pulled her into a curtained alcove, ripped her dressing gown open to find nothing underneath. He pushed her roughly up against the warm stones, claimed her mouth, pushed his knee between her legs and slid his hand over her sex. Finding her soaking wet, he slid two fingers inside, stretching her pleasurably. Daenerys found herself hitching one leg up to wrap about his waist, giving him more access, more depth. His tongue in her mouth mimicked the motion of his fingers pumping in and out of her soaking pussy, and he massaged her swollen nub with his calloused thumb until she came, her legs shaking and her breasts heaving, on a string of breathless Valyrian words Jon did not understand.

And now she stood before him, having told him she was pregnant with his child. “I know I told you I could never have any children, and believe me, this is the last thing I ever expected, my lord. But there is no doubt in my mind, I am with child. Your child.”

His legs had gone out from underneath him at the revelation and he’d sat down hard on end of the bed, the second time in the span of the week he’d felt the air sucked from his lungs, the ground falling out from beneath his feet. A child. My child, he thought. My child inside my Queen. He rubbed his face with his hands, he scratched his beard over and over. Then he looked up to see her standing before him, arms wrapped around herself, worry and fear so plain on her face, tears threatening to spill from her beautiful violet eyes.

He stood and closed the distance between them in two strides. When he reached her, he paused, unsure whether his touch would be welcome. She had been so formal, almost cold when she gave him the news, as if she had clad herself once again in armor, ready to do battle. In truth, she was his one weakness, and the thought did not terrify him as it should have. He put his hands on her upper arms and pulled her to him; she started and looked up at him, her violet eyes wide her lips slightly parted. “My lord?” she asked, her voice small and shaky. He placed his lips against her forehead, then enfolded her in his arms. Her hands came up to wrap around his upper back and she melted into his embrace. “Dany, there’s no need to be so formal. Fuck the formalities. I am Jon, your Jon. You know that.” Her heart danced at that.

He needed to know how she felt about this child; all that mattered to him now was her happiness. He broke off the hug and taking her hand, he pulled her to the bed to sit beside him. He angled his body slightly to look at her. Gods, she took his breath away. It was true what they said about pregnant women; she was glowing, she was radiant. He brought his hand up to cup her cheek, his thumb calloused and rough as it stroked over the softness of her face. “Are you happy about this child, our child?” he asked. She was so overcome with joy at the thought of the new life quickening inside her at this very moment, all she could do was nod. Jon had never been a talker, never a man of many words nor very eloquent, but at this moment, the words began to pour out of him and he found he could not hold them back.

“Dany,” he began, his gravelly voice thick with emotion, “I can’t begin to tell you what this means to me. Until a few days ago, I was a motherless bastard with no home, no birthright, no name. Then come to find out, everything I thought I knew - about my father, my family, myself – it was all a lie. The only truth I know now is you.” Slayer of lies, Daenerys thought, as Jon continued.

“I had worn the name ‘Snow,’ the word, ‘bastard’ like armor – I thought if I did, no one could ever use it to hurt me. I never dreamed I’d be named King in the North, or have as much as I do to be thankful for. There was a time I thought I’d be a man of the Night’s Watch until my dying day, honoring my vows to hold no titles, take no wife, to have no children. The love of a woman didn’t matter to me then, neither did having children. My Uncle Benjen warned me I wouldn’t have given it up so easily had I known what it meant.

“So much has happened since then. I never dreamed …” He took a deep breath and blinked hard, his emotions threatening to spill over, and fought to regain control of himself. Dany squeezed his hand, letting him know she understood. Her warm touch gave him the strength to go on.

“I never dreamed I’d meet someone like you. You’re not like anyone else. You’re so fearless, so strong, and so full of fire, so much a dragon in every sense of the word. On the ship to White Harbor, when we were together, it seemed like time stood still, like everything else just fell away. I know what you told me about not being able to have children. I know you truly believed it. By now, I’ve seen so many things that shouldn’t have been possible, experienced them myself … I’ve seen enough to know this child, our child is a gift; a gift of the impossible, a gift of life in this shit world. In this world of blood and darkness, you and our child, are hope. But none of that matters, it’s all just pretty words unless … unless it means the same thing to you, my Queen. ”

She had listened intently, letting every word hit her skin and sink in, a soothing elixir to her heart. “Jon, I …” her voice cracked with the weight of her emotions, “I want this child, your child, more than anything in the world. It makes me so happy, but it also makes me afraid. I don’t know what’s going to happen.

“I lost one babe before, the result of my own stupidity, my own selfishness. The witch told me I’d have another child when the sun rose in the west and set in the east, when the seas ran dry, when the mountains turned to dust and blew in the wind … You can understand why I never thought I would have another?” Jon nodded his understanding, brought her hand to his lips and pressed a kiss into her palm.

“And now, with the army of the dead on the march, with the Long Night approaching … who knows if either of us will live to see the dawn. All I know is I love you.”

#jonerys #jon snow #jon snow fanfiction #jon and daenerys #daenerys targaryen #jon x dany #jon x daenerys #love is the death of duty #got fanfiction #dragon and wolf #baby targ #jonerys smut #jonerys fanfic

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moonlitgleek · 7 years

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What goes down if Cersei married Rhaegar? Is the rebellion avoided because Cersei could give Rhaegar his three "dragons"? Do you think she would have turned to Jamie eventually or continued to be obsessed with Rhaegar?

Well, you have to keep in mind the changes that have to occur for Cersei to be able to marry Rhaegar in the first place because that is what’s going to affect the rebellion more than the number of children Rhaegar has.

There is simply no conceivable way for Aerys to agree to a match between his son and Cersei unless he was a completely different character - not only did he explicitly want a bride with Valyrian blood for his son in OTL which is a requirement that Cersei can not meet, but he also would never risk wedding the son he feared would try to usurp him to the daughter of his hated Hand whose power he resented and feared and whom he was convinced was conspiring against him. Wedding Rhaegar to Cersei would give him the support of one of the most powerful Houses in Westeros making overthrowing his father a more attainable prospect which is something Aerys would never allow. With the growing animosity between Tywin and Aerys, and Aerys’ suspicions of his son mounting, the king simply would not abide wedding Rhaegar’s claim to the military power and wealth of House Lannister. No, Rhaegar’s wife had to meetcertain qualifications for Aerys to agree to the match - the most important of which is that she could not bring Rhaegar any great wealth or military strength or power that can bolster his position in court and aid him in overthrowing Aerys.Meaning that the only way that a marriage between Rhaegar and Cersei could happen is if Aerys was a drastically different character than the one in canon, or if he died before he could make the betrothal between Rhaegar and Elia; either scenario would completely change the course of the narrative and prevent the rebellion for reasons that have nothing to do with the childbearing ability of Rhaegar’s wife.

So I’ll suggest another scenario in order to explore the idea of what would happen if Rhaegar could have the three heads of the dragon by his wife and how that could affect the rebellion. Let’s say that Elia does not suffer the health crisis that made her unable to have more children, does that stop the rebellion? Once I might have said yes: the story as far as we know is that Rhaegar left Dragonstone shortly after Aegon was born and Elia was said to be unable to have more children, fell upon Lyanna near Harrenhal and carried her off to Dorne to impregnate her because “the dragon must have three heads”. On the surface level, that could mean that his need for Lyanna to provide the third child was because Elia could not. But I’ve come to sincerely doubt that narrative.

In light of Rhaegar’s action at Harrenhal, it does not make much sense for him to have had no prior plans or intentions to have Lyanna be the mother of his third child before Aegon’s birth. If we assume that he had no design on Lyanna when he crowned her, the very act of crowning her becomes odd and even more outlandish. This frames Lyanna’s crowning as merely a nod of respect to her actions as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and not meant to have any additional meaning, but was a simple show of appreciation really worth the blunder Rhaegar committed by crowning Lyanna? His gesture as good as announced a romantic entanglement between them, which actually defeats his purpose if he merely intended to honor her bravery. You do not honor someone by publicly besmirching their honor in sight of the biggest gathering in the realm. Rhaegar’s crowning of Lyanna was him expressing interest in her, months before Aegon was born and Elia’s health disallowed another pregnancy.

Additionally, assuming that Rhaegar had not already set his eyes on Lyanna at Harrenhal also makes the sequence of events following the tourney seem disjointed. It’s not like Rhaegar randomly remembered Lyanna when he was told that Elia can not have more children, for some reason decided that Lyanna and no one else just had to be the mother of his third child regardless of any political ramifications, and somehow knew exactly where to find her at the time.There has to be a premeditated element for this story to flow right. Rhaegar had to already have had his mind set on Lyanna by the time of Aegon’s birth, perhaps interpreting her Stark blood as the ice connection in the prophecy.

In that vein, it would not really matter if Elia could have more children or not. Rhaegar was already showing signs that he thought Lyanna necessary to the fulfillment of the prophecy. He might even have taken Elia’s health complications as ~magic guiding the way~ to Lyanna. This scenario would be congruent with how Rhaegar’s interpretation of the prophecy was woefully mistaken and how his belief that magic would fix things affects his story, but more importantly, it does not lay even the slightest hint of blame on Elia.

Because the story of Rhaegar absconding with Lyanna because Elia could not give him a third child could invite blame to be placed on Elia whose inability to have another child “drove” Rhaegar to seek another. Indeed, both Jon Connignton and Cersei enthusiastically blame Elia for Rhaegar’s indiscretions and blunders, Cersei going as far as thinking that he would not have needed Lyanna if Cersei has been the one to marry him instead of Elia. Despite knowing nothing of the prophecy, both express the sentiment that if Elia was more worthy (aka healthier because this is a society that sees a woman’s worth as dependent on her ability to bear and rear children, and equates being healthy and able-bodied with being beautiful), Rhaegar would not have needed Lyanna. They put the blame for Rhaegar’s own actions on Elia repeatedly and unabashedly. I do not believe the narrative is going to validate that misogyny and ableism in any way.

So, that was my long way of saying that no, I don’t think the rebellion would have been prevented simply if Rhaegar could get a third child out of his wife. Rhaegar’s interest in Lyanna preceded the news that Elia could not have more children, and I think he had already decided Lyanna in specific was a necessary component for the fulfillment of the prophecy at Harrenhal and acted based on that.

As for your question about the nature of Cersei’s relationship with Rhaegar, Cersei would absolutely have gotten disillusioned with Rhaegar if she had married him. Once the initial glamour ofbeing princess\queen fades and she overcomes the illusion of how she “will mend his hurt when [they] are wed”, once she comes to know the real Rhaegar – themelancholy prince buried in his prophesies and omens and stories about icezombies, invested in what she’d believe were old wives’ tales and illusions about dragons more than he could ever be invested in his marriage – she would come to resent him. She also would not be allowed the kind of power she craved and coveted which would add to her resentment.

As far as her relationship with Jaime go, I believe that there is a limited number of scenarios that do not end with that relationship happening, and that requires a change from the very onset of their relationship. It would be a mistake to think that Cersei’s relationship with Jaime in canon was a response to Robert; this is a relationship whose roots goes back to before Joanna Lannister died and that grew and solidified before a marriage to Robert was even an idea. Cersei had always thought of Jaime as hers and of their relationship as something that transcended any regular relationship, platonic or romantic. She was possessive of Jaime and of her relationship with him even when she still believed that her betrothal to Rhaegar was going to happen and when she was still firmly obsessed with him. The conviction that she would marry Rhaegar did not prevent her from building that dynamic with Jaime.

Cersei had not had a friend she so enjoyed since Melara Hetherspoon, and Melara had turned out to be a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station. I should not think ill of her. She’s dead and drowned, and she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime.

You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords and dogs and horses… and for her, his twin.

This is how Cersei thinks of the nature of her relationship with Jaime at the age of 10. He was the only one she trusted, he lived for swords and dogs and horses and her. She is still angry at Melara for wanting Jaime almost 25 years after she killed her. I do not think it matters who Cersei married; her possessiveness of and dependence on Jaime would always be there, and her relationship with him would always happen.

#asoiaf meta #rhaegar targaryen #Cersei lannister #elia martell #lyanna stark #jaime lannister #what ifs #the tourney at harrenhal #the lannister incest #rhaegar's folly #Anon asks #ask box #aerys ii targaryen

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moonlitgleek · 7 years

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what are your thoughts on King Aerys's Kingsguard? Do you think they were honorable knights are toadies who didn't uphold their vows?

Oof, that’s a loaded question. Bear with me because I have thoughts.

The Kingsguard are vital to GRRM’s interrogation of knighthood and his definition of a true knight; we’re meant to see how hard it is to live up to the ideals of knighthood in a world that allows for conflicting vows, how good knights in service to a bad cause handle it, how many of them dare to question the system itself, and how that reflects on their view of themselves and of the institution as a whole. Living up to the chivalric code is freaking hard which is precisely why it is the mark of a true knight.

So we have the kingsguard as a model of how crooked the current system is: this is an institution that is universally viewed as the embodiment of the chivalric code but its fundamental flaw -- the fact the their vows to the king are taken to supersede their original vows to “be just [..] protect the young and the innocent [..] defend all women” even though the knighthood oath is the foundation on which the Kingsguard oath is built upon - effectively compromises that same code, exposing its oath to be hollow in practice and presenting a conflict of morality that so many of the revered knights in Westeros fall to.

And that’s exactly what happened with Aerys’ Kingsguard – they took their oaths to obey and protect the king, even if they morally opposed his actions, to be of paramount importance and to be held above all else. Barristan Selmy’s reflection on his role during Aerys’ reign, though it shows his shame and regret for doing nothing in the face of Aerys’ atrocities, still show his belief that he was honor-bound by his Kingsguard oath to do exactly that.

Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon’s son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys’s son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing. But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys’s reign.

The same sentiment is, more or less, echoed in Gerold Hightower and Jonothor Darry’s response when Jaime, ironically the only person to question the flaw in the system, struggled with the idea that he was just supposed to stand there and watch the king commit crimes without doing anything about it.

“As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’

The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. “You’re hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. “You’re hurting me.” In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted’s screaming. “We are sworn to protect her as well,” Jaime had finally been driven to say. “We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”

Hightower’s, Darry’s and Selmy’s stance isn’t surprising when you consider what we’re told of the Kingsguard’s oath.

The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king’s commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor.

Keep silent when counsel is not requested. Serve the king’s pleasure. That’s their duty. That’s what the system is telling them they are honor-bound to uphold and what they are expected to prioritize over their knighthood oath, standard morals, and even their own personal judgement. That is the standard rule of the Kingsguard - obey without question, regardless of what’s asked of you. Tommen’s Kingsguard were utterly baffled when Jaime pointed out that blind obedience to the king isn’t a good thing. Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent helped Rhaegar spirit away a 15 years old girl and isolate her in Dorne, then probably kept her there regardless of her wishes. They all considered this an integral part of their service.

This entire situation raises a difficult question about conflicting vows (“no matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other”); what a knight to do when duty and “honor” as accepted by society conflicts with basic ethical and moral code. Note that this is not just the view of the Kingsguard themselves, this is accepted Westerosi view. Ned Stark bore no ill-will towards Barristan Selmy who stood by and let his father and brother be brutally murdered without a trial, he was sad about having to fight Hightower, Dayne and Whent who were his sister’s gaolers. Robert Baratheon refused to have Barristan killed on the Trident because he wouldn’t kill a man for loyalty. He revered him for standing by his king, even though his loyalty meant that he enabled and defended a mass murderer.

But of course accepted Westerosi view means jack shit. Just because the system is corrupt does not mean the Kingsguard (or any knight, since all knights are expected to obey their lieges) are magically absolved of any blame or responsibility for their choices. The system was flawed when Jaime Lannister chose his knightly vows and recognized that blind obedience to a tyrant wasn’t acceptable. The system was flawed when Dunk risked his life going against Prince Aerion to protect Tanselle, and when he stood up to Eustace Osgrey once he discovered his lies. The system was flawed when Baelor Breakspear and Raymun Fossoway took a stand for Dunk, and when Brienne said of Ser Quincy Cox “he could have tried, he could have died”, and then went on to fight a hopeless fight to protect the children at the inn knowing that she would die. The system was flawed when Davos risked Stannis’ anger and retribution by smuggling Edric Storm out of Dragonstone. Knights take their vows willingly, accepting the responsibility and solemn duty to keep those vows and to stand up for those who can’t even if it meant their death; failing to do so in the name of duty to a tyrant is not good enough. That oath of obedience is no excuse. I generally find that accepting the idea that these knights did not have a choice or that there is a way to defend their actions buys into the rhetoric of Meryn Trant who would have us believe that he was completely justified in hitting 12-year-old Sansa, perhaps even that there was “honor” in it, simply because the king ordered it and he was sworn to obey the king. That it’s a thought process that could easily devolve to absolving the likes of Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch of their crimes just because they were following the orders of their lord to whom they swore an oath of obedience.

But it’s not like we don’t have examples of knights, even in Aery’s Kingsguard, either subverting or outright going against their vows to the king because they applied their own moral judgement and recognized that they shouldn’t obey the king. There’s Jaime Lannister obviously, but also, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent - possibly Gerold Hightower as well - owed their allegiance to Rhaegar instead of Aerys, probably because they couldn’t handle Aerys’ madness and the way he was leading the realm to ruin…. but then they showed the same blind obedience to Rhaegar’s orders regarding Lyanna and saw Robert as merely a usurper. Which isn’t really an improvement. They just transferred the object of that obedience from one person to another. But this still shows that they were capable of finding wiggle room within their vows when recognizing that the king shouldn’t be obeyed without exception and that there were cases where disobeying the king was the correct course of action.

Now we can’t paint all the Kingsguard who followed the sentiment of prioritizing the king’s orders above all else, even when the king was evil, with the same brush - if we do, we’d be missing a crucial part of GRRM’s commentary on both the Kingsguard and knighthood. Because not every man who follows that sentiment is a vile monster or a terrible person. While Meryn Trant or Boros Blount are truly vile people who think nothing of abusing a child, or worse, think they were in the right to do so, we have Arys Oakheart who was ashamed of hitting Sansa and who tried to argue but ultimately participated in her abuse anyway, and we have Barristan Selmy who is also ashamed of standing as a silent witness to Aerys’ crimes but tries to rationalize it. It goes a long way in emphasizing that evil does not triumph just because bad people do evil things, it also triumphs when good - or relatively good - men do nothing.

That’s why I can’t talk about Aerys’ Kingsguard as a monolith entity when they obviously had different stances and views of the bounds of their oath. Jaime Lannister questioned the system and ultimately rejected the notion of putting the king’s orders first regardless of the cost when he chose the half-million lives inside King’s Landing over his oath to the king. Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and possibly Gerold Hightower took liberties with their oath based on their moral judgement but instead of applying the same morals to Rhaegar, they just transferred their obedience from one person to another and ultimately followed the same sentiment. Barristan Selmy “did his duty” and suppressed his moral questions, as it appears Jonothor Darry did. Lewyn Martell…. Oh, who the hell knows, we have so little information about him (sigh, George), but while it’s safe to say he was Team Rhaegar initially, Elia and her children’s captivity during the Rebellion certainly complicate his position later on.

I tend to think that most of these knights fall under the category of the good men who did nothing or “did their duty” and let injustice prevail. They were no toadies but they most definitely broke their knightly vows. Challenging the system is hard, speaking up against an authority is hard, but it’s only through that difficulty - that test - that a true knight is made. They should have tried, even if it meant their death. They took oaths to protect the innocent and the weak but they squandered them. Aerys’ Kingsguard were not true knights; not one of them, from Barristan Selmy to Arthur Dayne to Gerold Hightower. They are no Duncan the Tall or Brienne of Tarth.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #the kingsguard #knighthood #barristan selmy #jaime lannister #arthur dayne #oswell whent #gerold hightower #jonothor darry #lewyn martell #meryn trant #boros blount #chivalric code #so many vows...they make you swear and swear #ask box #Anon asks

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