#ironborn culture
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Valyrians // Iron Islanders parallel I found interesting 🤔 and leads me to some conclusions about Valyrians (it's just my opinion though) since we know little about them ultimately
- Obviously, the both of them practiced/ still practice some form of slavery.
- Valyria was a powerful, brutal empire looking to always expand it's territories, and was feared by all ; and while a lot milder the Targaryen dynasty springs from "the Conqueror" (and several Dornish wars show that continued ambition). All the while not only did the Ironborn once conquer a sizeable part of Westeros and subjected it to their dreadful rule under house Hoare (Harren the Black), but in the current asoiaf timeline they also have conquered parts of the North, and Euron has even bigger plans. So in both cases, a big tendency to expansionism.
- They both practice polygamy to some extent. Ironborn have one "rock wife", a legal wife, and "salt wives", who are captive concubines. We've not that many info on whether or not the Valyrians valued some wives above others, since the two cases we have real info on are entirely different. But like the Ironborn Valyrian polygamy seems to be only polygyny, a marriage of one man to several women.
- So, info we've got on individual characters can imply many things for the Valyrians, especially how their society works (social strata) and their values. Some theories have it that Valyrians treated their women much better & gave them quasi-equality to men, but I kind of think the cases of Visenya & Rhaenys (and some possible cases among some previous Valyrian women like Janaera Baelaerys or the Elaena who "ruled with her brother") in the eye of the comparison with the Ironborn, kind of look like Asha's situation. Especially with Visenya. They are both women with unusual positions & who are closely associated to power by their male relative ; they are both warriors and they fight for their family, and are respected as such. Despite the Iron Islands having a pretty misogynistic culture, Asha manages to fit right in and be considered practically as her father's heir and a possible contender for the salt throne, while Visenya was an advisor for Aegon & sat the Iron throne in his absence with her sister Rhaenys. And even if Rhaenys embodied more feminine qualities and wasn't a "true warrior", she could still fly her dragon into battle with her siblings. It's possible that dragons elevated Valyrian women & their place in society, like being a warrior, a sailor & a captain did for Asha in the Ironborn society. They are useful in the same way men are, are more or less able to do the same things.
- To develop the comparison, if we look at Maegor, who was raised by Visenya, the embodiment of Valyrian female autonomy & power in a sense, it kind of is strange that he became a man who didn't respect women all that much. He abandoned his first wife because she couldn't give him children, and treated most of his other brides as potential broodmares. In both instances in the text he affirms that what he wants from his wives isn't just "a child", but "a son". How does that make sense for Visenya's son, raised by her, except if Valyrians were patriarchal but sometimes allowed women (dragonriders) to hold some power and could on an individual level be lead to see them as equals of sorts (like Balon with Asha) ? While still really valuing men first, ultimately - which is why Aegon (the Uncrowned) was made prince of Dragonstone, and not Rhaena, who was older but female. It's a culture that cares about sex & does discriminate to some extent, but cares more about strength in some way, and so gives some equality to powerful women.
- So, this lead me to tentatively infer that dragonlords possibly did "rank" their wives, and if they had dragonrider (sister) wives and non-dragonrider wives, put the first above the second in some way. (Edit : they apparently sort of did, as they could have wives and concubines, like Aenar the Exile had)
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Is there a more positive way for a progressive Ironborn lord, such as Quellon Greyjoy for example, to spin their House words “We Do Not Sow”?
I can't seem to think of any.
Maybe, as in "reap what you sow," it means they don't get what they deserve? But that refusal of accountability doesn't help their case.
Maybe it's supposed to mean "we do not sow, but we fish and hunt"? If that's the case, then, make a motto about hunting and fishing.
The best I can do at the moment is to say it's in the context of Ironborn culture, and it's hard to translate into mainland terms. And on that angle, the most positive interpretation I can conjure up is that "sow" is a euphemism for rape. So they're setting an example for other Ironborn not to rape when they pillage. But even there, how about you...don't pillage the other kingdoms? At all?
Eh, after that idea, maybe he could say the motto refers to a millennia-old story of the first Greyjoys. It doesn't say anything about how they act now, it's a cultural reference that means a lot to the Ironborn because they all know the story.
Seriously, though, if I were in the position of Quellon Greyjoy, I'd want to come up with a new House motto.
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theon be like in the iron islands nobody gets special treatment because of their lineage! and then gets mad at not getting special treatment because of his lineage.
#like okay theon...WHAT DO YOU WANT.#i jest but like...he truly doesn't know what he wants#the only thing keeping him going at this point in his arc are a desperate need for a kiss from daddy and a dream!#going to write a more detailed and serious analysis of his cognitive dissonance when it comes to the iron islands#and the ironborn#and about how he romanticizes his culture but can't come to terms w the actual state of the ironborn#theon greyjoy#valyrianscrolls#asoiaf
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Marilda’s name doesn’t just mean ‘emerald’ but also ‘famed battle maid’, which appears to be a reference to the valkyries from Norse mythology. The valkyries carried out the duty of guiding fallen heroes into the afterlife, to the realm of the gods (the Æsir). Really puts into perspective Marilda transporting Corlys’ body on her ship called Mermaid’s Kiss, out to his ship the Sea Snake, and then having him buried in the Narrow Sea (domain of the god known as the Merling King).
#valyrianscrolls#asoiaf#marilda of hull#corlys velaryon#corlys & marilda#meta#there's a lot of nordic references#especially with corlys & alyn#well those two are the most into the seafaring lifestyle#the way the norse vikings were#ironborn got the reaving part of the viking culture and velaryons the exploring part#the seafarers on opposite ends of westeros#one of these days I should gif them together#they both contrast and complement against each other
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i always read the ironborn as south asian, specifically sindhi (from pakistan)! the bawarij pirates sailed barija, a type of dhow that are unsuited to warlike maneuvers. they kinda look like longships, which the ironborn use. obviously gurm didn't completely base the ironborn (or any ethnic group) on people in real life, but i like to think he drew some inspiration from the bawarij pirates when writing the ironborn. also, gurm describes theon as "dark" which i think is interesting!
that's SUCH a cool headcanon, i liked chinese ironborn too cos of the historical south china sea chinese piracy during the 1700s/1800s. whenever grrm uses dark or fair thats technically in reference to their hair and general aesthetic but i hate when people use that as a gotcha cos like can you PROVE it? naur!
#i would disagree cos he for sure based the ironborn on vikings but like the pop culture idea about vikings#ask#mattressstoreddx
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Also just a shoutout to Victarion whose such a petty bitch about the things that are his fault. Like hes so angry at Euron for raping his third wife, and is planning on sailing through the Dothraki Sea (which isnt a sea btw its literally fields of fucking grass), and taking Daenerys for himself instead of giving her to Euron, as retribution for his third wife.
Meanwhile, Victarions the one who honour killed his own wife after she was raped, and fed her corpse to fucking crabs. Like, I want you to explain to me how you crying when you beat her to death still make her death Eurons fault.
I think "I beat her to death with my own hands", is where her death starts and stops at being your fault, buddy.
#the ironborn are all out of their minds they are fucking idiot psychos#your all dumb and stupid and crazy and i am obsessed with your train wreck of a culture#game of thrones#a song of ice and fire#asoiaf#victarion greyjoy#euron greyjoy
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I don't like to continue on someone else's post so just two things:
1) Victarion does at a certain point believe Hotho to be the heir to Harlaw - obviously its Victarion so there are plenty of explanations as to why he would be mistaken lol but thats why I entertained the idea of a succession uncertainity at all
2) There are NO characters known to be salt sons in asoiaf just bastards (and we know from TWOIAF that salt sons don't have bastard names I think) so a huge amount of freedom is allowed to the reader to make their own headcanons about exactly how that system works and how bad/remarkable it is for one to actually inherit. Last Serving Daughter Is a great example of making one's own headcanons! I love it
All the rest I agree fully and don't expect this to be the Canon supported option and I hadnt even gone to check where house Serrett Is so thanks for that, just wanted to point out why I made the remarks I did. I just like to always consider interpretations that are not the first that comes to mind.
Heyo! Not to be weird but I've actually read a good bit of your asoiaf fanfic it is sooo... *chef's kiss* 🤌 (and I know you from The Discord. kudos to a fellow throbb ponderer 🫡🫡🫡 too bad I'm super shy and never post on there lol.)
Per your first point, I combed Vic's chapters but I honestly couldn't find anything specific about Vic believing Hotho to be the heir to Ten Towers. If there is, feel free to send it my way. That said, there is some general ambiguity to that particular inheritance because of Euron's move of making Harras Lord of Greyshield. My read was that because Harras will already be lord of both Grey Garden and Greyshield, it's somewhat expected that he might 'step back' from Ten Towers, and let that inheritance go to another Harlaw (namely Hotho lol).
Per your second point, it is genuinely strange that there are no characters we really know to be salt sons/daughters. To be honest, I think George just included the whole salt wife/son bit without thinking through all of the wrinkles it might cause, so salt wives/sons are pretty much ignored in feastdance. Consider Balon, as according to Aeron, Balon took his first two salt wives when he was seventeen (implying that he took more in the following years). And Balon never had any salt sons by any of these women? Seems unlikely. But obviously, George knew that adding salt sons to the Greyjoy succession crisis would only complicate things further (Asha would never have been Balon's heir, nor would Euron have ever been able to inherit after Balon's death, and story events would not be able to unfold in the way GRRM wanted).
To me, that indicates that maybeeee George shouldn't have included that bit about Balon's salt wives at all. Maybe. Just maybe. And also, Quellon let Balon do that? It seems like it would really undermine Quellon's attempted reforms to let his son go around taking thralls and salt wives. George. George are you listening to me. George. Hey.
Now, if I were famous American novelist George RR Martin (and thank god I'm not), I'd have it so that salt sons start with the last name 'Salt' (distinct from the bastard name 'Pyke'), but if their father has no other sons, then they gain the house name and are raised up as heir. And I would have written salt wives/sons into my story in a way such that they're actually relevant. But alas.
In that same vein, I'm actually a big fan of a potential Iron Islands civil war, because I love cataclysm! I love it when tenuous cultural/societal trappings splinter and create devastating calamity! The Iron Islands have a strong reputation for being fiercely independent and quarrelsome, and I am SO looking forward to the complete catastrophe TWOW will be for them. Even on a small scale, it would be super interesting if salt sons could challenge rock sons for their inheritance via duel or a mini-kingsmoot (lordsmoot?), and that was a constant point of tension. There's just so much juice there!
As a final note, I hope I didn't come across as a "well ackchyually-" annoying weirdo. I just really enjoy discussing the sparse ironborn lore we're actually given. I have approximately ten thousand of my own ironborn headcanons, some of which roughly align with established canon, some of which directly contradict it lol. That's partially why the Iron Islands are my favorite region in Westeros: we're not given nearly as much world-building about them as, say, the Starks, and the world-building we do get sometimes makes absolutely no sense. So there's so much room to craft your own headcanons/lore!
Anyway, I ❤️ other people's ironborn headcanons. I will try to restrain myself from writing another 50,000 words on the topic, but it's so much fun lol.
#ask#hell-heron#catch me spending more effort answering this ask than my actual irl work. flop behavior!#and yes i AM working on chapters 27-29. chapter 27 is done!!! (won't be posting it yet tho sowwy) and yes it hits like a brick to the face#chapters 28 and 29 are both half-written but i'm working on it. they are sooo much fun!!! well. “”“fun”“”#and it's really got me frothing at the mouth about ironborn culture/lore. like i am not a well person. anyway
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i know theon being trapped in an awful violent perpetual adolescence due to being a hostage meaning he was not given access to the ironborn cultural milestones of adulthood like reaving and also preventing him from reaching even typical westerosi benchmarks like marriage or land or military power is like the point. but also i just remember that renly is only 2 years older than him and it’s like. dear god
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What character(s) would you have liked George to have included as a POV that made sense for the story?
Irri or Jhiqui late in ADWD after Dany left to augment Barry and Quentyn. And suddenly they turn from "simple, superstitious, loyal" and essentially mindless handmaidens to complex characters with their own opinions, motivations, priorities and judgments, and - this would be crucial - with an explicit eloquence that is denied to them from Dany's POV.
Dany speaks Dothraki as a second language, learned recently, and I can't help but think that the clunky, simplified way we hear them speak through Dany's POV is due to her inability to properly pick up and convey the nuances of their speech.
Either of these two characters suddenly emerging from the obscurity of Dany's inattention, as three-dimensional individuals would be really powerful because it would instantly reveal Dany as lacking true interest in them as people, which is pretty damning in terms of her heroic self-image. Plus, it would finally grant us better insight into Dothraki culture from inside it, giving it a voice and dignity, even if we don't share their values, similarly to the various Greyjoys giving us nuance and detail on Ironborn culture.
I think this would have amplified the impact of Dany's grasslands POV, her self-image contrasting with an outside perspective.
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So I'm not totally sure how prevalent this idea is with Daenerys antis, but I've seen more than one person talk about how Dany was racist towards the Dothraki and Ghiscari. This is, of course, ridiculous. Dany embraces both these cultures when she lives among them and even considers staying with them multiple times. Yes, she disagrees with and is even disturbed by some of the traditions these cultures have, but these traditions are ones of slavery, rape, and injustice. We the readers should also recognize these are not good traditions.
In every culture, there are traditions that are harmful, this is an unfortunate consequence of our humanity. No matter what country, city, etc you are coming from, there are things in the history of the place and people that are not good. The same is true of the world of ASOIAF. Slavery of Old and New Ghis, the right of the First Night in the North, the Ironborn's practice of taking thralls and salt wives, the Dothraki raping the women of whomever they defeat, the human experimentation in Valyrian, the invading armies of Westeros raping and burning the smallfolk. All these are practices meant to be condemned by the reader and acknowledged by povs as being wrong. Acknowledging a huge flaw like legal rape and fucking slavery is not being racist!
When Viserys calls the Dothraki barbarians and is actually racist towards them, Dany defends them and claims them as her own people. After all, she believes at this point that she will spend the rest of her life among the Dothraki. Now someone could try to argue that Dany refusing to stay a Khaleesi in the Dothraki Sea after Viserys' death is an example of her looking down on them ("If I were not the blood of the dragon...this could be my home.")
However, this is, firstly, not about race, second of all, this isn't about her thinking she's better than them, this is about her perceived duty to her house. Viserys raised her to believe it is their duty to their house to reclaim the IT, and not that he's dead, the duty lies solely on her and her unborn child. She isn't the only character who sacrifices her happiness out of perceived duty, Jon joins the Night's Watch because of this and literally anything Tyrion does on Tywin's orders or for Cersei.
With the Ghiscari, Dany only has issues with the slavers. She loves the slaves and is driven to free them, and, let me remind everyone, slavery in ASOIAF is not race-driven, that was another thing the show fucked up on. When Dany rules in Meereen, she embraces the culture quickly, just like with the Dothraki. She wears the traditional clothing, learns Ghiscari, and has Ghiscari nobles and freedmen on her counsel.
Any and all negative thoughts and associations Dany has with Ghiscari traditions (the tokar, the wedding ceremony) are because of the false peace and the continued power of the slavers. She hates how it feels to put on the tokar because it's a reminder that she is constantly compromising with the slavers and is allowing the Astapori and Yunkai'i slaves to fall back into chains. She doesn't want to marry Hizdahr because she knows he is working with the Harpy and he is constantly pressuring her to give into other demands by the slavers. The only traditions Dany has issues with are associated with slavery and the false peace in Meereen.
Daenerys isn't ever racist towards the Dothraki or Ghiscari, she values their council, and respects their traditions except the ones revolving around rape and slavery. She is only driven to take the IT because of perceived duty to her house. Daenerys is unhappy in Meereen because she hates slavery and is dissatisfied with the false peace there.
#daenerys targaryen#anti dany antis#asoiaf#meereen#dothraki#viserys iii targaryen#pro daenerys#queen daenerys
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Culture is a central aspect of Dany's arc. As such, it is a central feature of interpretations of her character, whether such interpretations are positive or negative.
The majority of ASOIAF fans dislike Dany's relationship with culture. What I find interesting, however, is that ASOIAF fans end up rejecting Dany's place in every culture she's part of.
Dany was born on Dragonstone, and immediately fled to Braavos when Rhaella died. When Viserys and Daenerys were forced to leave the Sealord's Manse, they traveled through the Free Cities: Lys, Myr, Tyrosh. Dany speaks Valyrian with a Tyroshi accent/dialect. Six months before the events of AGOT, Viserys and Daenerys land up in Illyrio's manse in Pentos.
Dany unequivocally adopts Dothraki culture as her own. She worships the Dothraki Horse God, speaks Dothraki fluently, wears the hrakkar when she wants to be comfortable, prefers her Dothraki riding leathers, painted vest, and medallion belt to the Meereenese tokar (and wears such an outfit when she wants to project strength), wears bells in her hair, considers Dothraki funeral rites for her own eventual death, loves horse riding, and sees herself as part of the Dothraki land. She is a Khaleesi of her own Khalasar, and also foreshadowed to be the Stallion who Mounts the World.
Dany spends time in Qarth, recovering from the perils of the Red Waste, figuring her leadership style out as a beggar queen, before she is kicked out of the city. There she meets Quaithe, who recurs as an ambiguous guide and mentor in her arc. She also receives various prophecies from the Undying, before they try to devour her. Xaro becomes an ally, and then enemy, and she learns important lessons from him. She gets her three-headed dragon crown, wrought in jade, ivory, and onyx, from the Pureborn of Qarth.
Dany conquers Slaver's Bay, moving from Astapor, to Yunkai, to Meereen, before ruling Meereen as Queen. She tries to free slaves and abolish slavery in each city. She wears the Meereenese tokar, speaks Ghiscari in court, marries Hizdahr zo Loraq in the Meereenese fashion, re-opens the fighting pits, trains her child hostages as cupbearers, and tries to be the "queen of rabbits." The bulk of the exploration of her leadership style and ideology is in Slaver's Bay.
Dany wants to reconquer Westeros on behalf of the Targaryen dynasty, and idealizes Westeros as a beautiful land. She names the habitat Drogon carves out for himself as Dragonstone.
Dany longs for the house with the red door and lemon tree. The two places she admits to being happiest in are Braavos (the house with the red door) and the Dothraki Sea. She once wanted to be a sailor. She has dreams of living a simple life with Daario. She also wants to be queen.
Dany speaks Ghiscari, High Valyrian, Tyroshi Valyrian (and likely other Valyrian dialects, like Pentoshi Valyrian), the Common Tongue, and Dothraki. She worships both the Faith of the Seven and the Dothraki Horse God. She has a connection to R'hllorism. She's lived in various Free Cities, the Dothraki Sea, Qarth, and Meereen. She's been through the Red Waste, Vaes Dothrak, Astapor, and Yunkai.
ASOIAF fans reject every one of Dany's relationships to these locations and cultures.
She is considered entitled, and imperialistic, for wanting to reconquer Westeros. Most theories of her dying center around the futility of conquest, the violence of House Targaryen, the selfishness of holding on to its name, the fact of her exile, and even that she is "foreign" to the land and culture. Many point out that she doesn't know "anything" about Westeros, that her father was Aerys II, that her family are "oppressive conquerors," and that her family lost the throne. Some will come up with convoluted reasons to claim that Jon Snow or Young Griff are ahead of her in the line of succession (so the throne belongs to a Targaryen, just not her). She won't "respect" Northern independence, Dornish independence, Ironborn independence, etc.
She is considered violent, tyrannical, and a threat to Westeros because of her connection to the Dothraki. She is accused of being an enabler of slavery and rape for being Drogo's wife, and then a she-Khal. The stallion who mounts the world prophecy is used as "proof" that she will go mad, or that she will burn Westeros to the ground in her conquest. She is accused of romanticizing Dothraki culture. She's blamed for what happens to the women of the Lhazarene village, particularly Mirri. Phrases such as "she is a white woman whose arc is propped up by the suffering of women of color/characters of color" are usually located here.
Dany is accused of not really caring about slavery because "she didn't do anything about it in Qarth," and stayed in Xaro's manse as a guest.
At the same time, Dany is seen as a white/Westerosi character "imposing her foreign/Western values" upon Essos. She is accused of "trying to civilize" Dothraki culture and "appropriating/mimicking" it. The phrase "white man's burden" is usually thrown around here. She's accused of raping Irri, her arc being built on Irri and Jhiqui's suffering, and the Dothraki being painted as "savage" for her own trauma. She is mocked as naive and ignorant for not appreciating the beauty of Qarth and wanting to return to Westeros in spite of being there, accused of being unfair toward Xaro in expecting an alliance from him, accused of being a cultural imperialist for burning down the House of the Undying.
Her time in Slaver's Bay receives the lion's share of the critique. She ruins its political economy. She destroys the region. She profits from slavery while claiming to be antislavery. She causes the freedmen to face poverty, violence, murder, rape, and suffering. She doesn't do enough against rapists and looters. She chooses fire and blood over the Meereenese peace, which is seen as a negative. She colonizes Slaver's Bay. She is like the US in Afghanistan or Iraq––invading for selfish reasons and then leaving, causing a rightwing insurgency to grow. She commits war crimes by torturing the wineseller's daughters and crucifying 163 Great Masters of Meereen, leaders of the city.
Yet the irony of this is captured in how people criticize her presence in Meereen: she is accused of ruining the city as an imperialist and is then criticized for wanting to sail away to conquer Westeros. So essentially, she has no place in Meereen, but she is also a bad person for wanting to leave it for Westeros.
As a Targaryen, and a Valyrian in general, her presence is seen as oppressive to both Westeros and Essos. Westeros because of the Targaryen conquest, Essos because of the legacy of the Valyrian Freehold. She's criticized for being "allies" with Illyrio Mopatis, a slaveowner, and people theorize that Braavos will hate her for being a Valyrian with dragons. Yet she is also criticized for not resettling in the house with the red door (presumably in Braavos, no?) and instead wanting to conquer Westeros. She is "too stupid" to appreciate how "beautiful and advanced" Essos is, and too focused on idealizing Westeros, but she is also too Westerosi/white/foreign to Essos.
In other words, for ASOIAF fans, Dany does not deserve to belong to any culture. Seeking a place in Westeros means that she is entitled, selfish, privileged, and oppressive. Being a Dothraki Khaleesi means that she simultaneously romanticizes slavery and is trying to civilize brown people. Conquering Slaver's Bay is an act of imperialism from a Western tyrant seeking resources, but leaving Slaver's Bay is an act of imperialism from a Western tyrant fleeing a war they started. Staying in Qarth means that she romanticizes slavery, but not fitting in there and idealizing Westeros means she is like an American tourist in the Global South, who cannot appreciate the real value of where she is in favor of a backwater Global North (Westeros). Being Valyrian means she is inherently responsible for slavery, and thus does not belong in Braavos or Westeros, but if she lives in Qarth, the Free Cities, or conquers Slaver's Bay to abolish slavery, she is trying to make Old Valyria rise again. She ruined Meereen and will burn Volantis, but she will also burn King's Landing and maybe even Sunspear.
If I ask ASOIAF fans what culture she belongs to, or which continent she should be part of, doubtless I will get multiple answers. But those answers will end up contradicting themselves. The reality is that these are not scattered rejections––the people rejecting Dany's place in each culture will, at different times, reject all the places Dany occupies in said cultures. Someone who on one day says Dany is a backwater white person who can't appreciate the beauty of Qarth will on the next day claim that she is reviving the violence of the Targaryen dynasty upon Dorne and the North by planning to invade Westeros. Someone who will wax lyrical about how she is a white woman whose arc is built on the suffering of women of color, and thus that she is a Nazi, or white supremacist, will on another day call her a rape enabling slave profiteer for being Drogo's wife and a Khaleesi.
Perhaps this is the natural conclusion of a character who is intentionally written as stateless and homeless. A nomad, an exile, a diasporic teenage girl, who longs for various "homes" and has different ideas of "home" in her head. But what does it say about ASOIAF fans that they reject her relationship with every culture? They don't want her in Essos or Westeros. We don't know what's west of Westeros, as we never hear the outcome of Elissa Farman's voyage. Doubtless the same fears people have of Dany living and thriving in Essos or Westeros would apply to any lands west of Westeros too. So where do they want her? There is an answer to this, which only a few ASOIAF fans are honest enough to admit: that Dany should have died in childbirth, or on the journey to Braavos, or on the Dothraki Sea, as Illyrio intended. Sadly, most ASOIAF fans are not brave enough to admit that their rejection of Dany's various cultural "places" is actually just a disguise for their dissatisfaction at her existence in the narrative.
(Whether or not that dissatisfaction is merited, whether or not it is motivated by genuine, "progressive" literary reasons, is another conversation. ASOIAF fans are indeed free to be upset about her presence as a character, or to theorize that she will be a villain because of her cultural statelessness. Right now, though, this post focuses on the question of "what culture could Dany be a part of without being a threat." The answer, for most ASOIAF fans, seems to be that Dany, child of storm, was born a threat to the entire world of ice and fire).
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Viking vs. Ironborn Thralls
George R.R. Martin is famous for claiming to draw inspiration from real life history and cultures for his world building in the Song of Ice & Fire and associated spin offs. Although he never comes out and says it, the ironborn are clearly based on the Vikings. They are both, after all, seafaring raiders with a history of elected monarchy using longships to capture thralls. In this essay, I’ll be comparing real Viking thralls to ironborn ones and discussing the implications.
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Triggered by a conversation between mutuals that I wasn't able to partake in because I read it when it was already over but it still left me with a feeling of wanting to talk.
Many of my recent issues with this series and some of the characters in it come from coming to terms with the fact that people like me were never the intended demographic for it and thus many of my expectations and beliefs are unrealistic. I'm very much aware that every person who ever reads a text will understand it differently based on their experiences and emotions, we can see the most clear examples of it when it comes to the eternal debates on whether Jeyne & Sansa really bullied Arya or whether Catelyn's treatment of Jon should be considered abuse, but at least in my case the projection is based more on political situations that have strongly affected me and my loved ones and that are difficult to talk about in the open without feeling like my concerns are exaggerated and are also ruining other people's fun.
This is a fun series that has given my solace written by a white usan democrat who writes orientalist tropes and gives no real personality to any of his fully-canon-not-up-to-interpretation characters of colour and uses a half assed excuse to not have any of the main characters be a not-up-to-interpretation character of colour.
An example that is lighthearted and makes me chuckle could be my perception of the Vale. To me Mya Stone wears heavy colourful ponchos while Myranda wears a sanq'apa, Domeric Bolton played not only the harp but also the charango, maté is a common drink, and at least some of Sweetrobyn's lacking health comes from soroche. None of this is contradictory to the canon but I know that if I were to meet grrm and tell him of these concepts, he would probably think I'm on crack but would smile in false sympathy while Liiiiiiindaaaaaaaaa (and some readers, fans and tumblerinas) would just straight up tell me to go read something from my shithole country instead of tarnishing the beautiful and perfect European-based world of ice and fire./sar
And I am aware that the ironborn are perceived by most and are somewhat intended to be perceived as pseudo-historic "vikings but in the late Middle Ages" but I read these books when I was 12 and still thought that vikings were just a Hollywood invention, like the orange filter they put on Latin America or white saviours.
With this long introduction here are some random headcanons regarding ironborn lore and culture that aren't contradictory to canon but would probably clash against the more common fandom-built conceptions (many of which I do not like), sometimes accompanied by explanations and reasoning, often sentimental or based on personal experiences.
Nagga, the other unnamed dragon and the geographical formation of the islands
Heavily inspired by the myth of Trentren Vilu and Caicai Vilu. In the original real life mapuche myth the two giant snakes were enemies and after Caicai Vilu (sea snake) awoke form his slumber he caused a flood to bring down mankind because he considered them ungrateful brats who didn't appreciate the gifts offered by the sea. Trentren Vilu (land snake) helped the humans escape by raising the hills and turning those who drowned into sea creatures (fish, sea mammals and the mapuche equivalent to mermaids included) and those who were about to be engulfed by the waters into sea birds. Due to the long fighting and constant floods the land developed into thousands (not an exaggeration) islands.
My ironborn version of this isn't very different from the myth narrated above with Caicai Vilu's role becoming Nagga's and Trentren Vilu's being given to another sort of dragon that was it's oponent. The major difference in my headcanons is that said opponent perished, unlike Trentren, and Nagga kept on living and causing havoc until the Grey King finally killed it off. And if I am allowed to reach out even more with all this, the mermaid that the Grey King married could have been one of Nagga's victims saved by the other dragon but, taking into account what we know from Strange Stone this would mean that the formation of the Islands and the existence of merlings and the sea dragon would precede the Drowned God. That would be interesting.
Architectonic decoration
Some of my happiest memories take place in a small and poor fisher town in my home country that was usually damp and covered in fog. The beach was not a pleasant one. A remarkable thing about it was it's architecture that wasn't very particular in it's structure but still remains striking to me. The houses near the coast were all typical colourful, wooden stilt houses, but the further you got into land the houses would change and suddenly you found yourself in small and dirty alleys and streets between concrete houses that were rather plain in shape and old but the walls were covered in sea shells, and sometimes starfish and sea urchin carcasses, that had been plastered on the concrete. When I was 12 and had just moved to another country my class was tasked with making a dissertation about what we associate with the word "home". My teacher was a xenophobe who delighted in tormenting me and she laughed at the pictures and referred to them as tacky, my fellow classmates liked emulating her. I however still find them beautiful and that entire sentiment is something I mildly associate to the iron islands in a way.
It is my home. Flawed and meagre, but mine.
I also think that since sea shells are cheap and common it would fit into their more utilitarian tendencies; giving a purpose to what little they have instead of overspending (gold price) on aesthetics. For some reason this is something I like imagining at Harlaw and Lordsport in particular.
Here are pictures
Music
Feel weird about this because music in the entirety of Westeros is very generic and that makes it a little boring in my opinion. When it comes to Ironborn we are told of two reaving songs ("Steel Rain" and "The Bloody Cup") and it's mentioned quite often by ironborn characters that getting a song about them is something they should strive for. There might even be some religious reasons behind it too but that wasn't expanded on:
The Drowned God had made them to reave and rape, to carve out kingdoms and write their names in fire and blood and song.
- Theon I, ACOK
Makes me wonder if Theon's "Let Abel make a song of that, we flew." could have been influenced by ironborn culture too instead of just his usual romanticism and the chivalric connotations of him "saving the girl". I haven't compared this to the other characters so I can't be sure about this but from my notes Theon seems to think quite a lot about wanting to be in/not being fit for a song.
We also have Loron Greyjoy, "the Bard", and we know very little of him except for that he used to have a gay ol' time with Desmond Mallister, but there's nothing that points to him being looked down on by the other ironborn and the nickname "the bard" feels significant but there's no info so what am I to make up with that? Well, I like to think he was a bit of a patron of the arts and maybe even a composer. The two reaving songs have no mentioned origins so maybe he was involved in their creation.
The thralls were pouring ale, and there was music, fiddles and skins and drums.
- Theon II, ACOK
I like all of those instruments but grrm you are a bore. Westeros is about the size of South America and yet they have a total of nine instruments named. Loved the mention of kettledrums during the kingsmoot though.
The largest kettledrum in the world finds itself in Bali and serves religious purposes. I like to believe that perhaps the kettledrums during the kingsmoot also had some religious reasons for their use. Perhaps traditional melodies used to announce the different contenders for the seastone chair.
Drums make sense for reaving songs and truth be told I'm not sure to what he was referring with "skins" but I was surprised by the fiddles because they seemed like a wink at the just as anachronistic golden age piracy, even if fiddles have been around since the 10th century. This makes me think of more folkloric oriented music made more for dancing in taverns and harbours than for rowing.
When being deranged I became aware that percussion and string instruments can be played underwater as they don’t rely solely on air to transfer sound (they would still be very difficult to play and the sound would be weird). Dragging a bow across a fiddle would probably be easier than strumming a harp or lyre though. I don’t think the ironborn are deranged enough to try to play music under water but it makes for a fun picture to imagine them being more fond of sounds that can be transferred through it. I’m imagining them trying echolocation with dolphins.
For some reason I can’t really explain I like the idea of them playing the marimba and other percussion wood based instruments.
I like to believe that the finger dance can be somewhat compared to capoeira as in serving aesthetically pleasing and artistic purposes but also carrying a sort of danger and fighting spirit to it. It is something I can see as a pastime, acrobatic exercise and art and I like that.
Some mapiko dancers will bind sea shells in nets to their clothes and they will use them as bells and rattles when they dance. I like to think this could maybe be part of the finger dance when performed for artistic purposes, like perhaps a diplomatic visit or a national festivity, instead of just as a game.
(not ironborn lore related but as I went through my notes I realised that Theon is usually tense when thinking or witnessing happyish heroic sort of songs but he seems to be weirdly at peace/melancholic around "sad" and "soft" songs during ADWD and I find that very endearing. Go listen to Chris Garneau's between the bars and castle time you sad sulking ghost I love you I wish I could have seen you thrive but we are all doomed : ) )
Priestesses of the drowned god
I am heavily against the fandom notion that the Ironborn built a culture out of toxic masculinity that is particularly misogynistic when in canon women in the island (or at least ironborn women) have more liberties than in most of Westeros (with Dorne as an exception and maaaaaybe the North). The only female stewards we see in the series are all iron islanders and Asha being allowed to reave and raid and engage in spaces usually reserved to men isn't the exception to the rule. Theon mentions that women like her aren't uncommon in the isles, Asha is said to have resembled her mother in spirit and Hagen's beautiful red headed daughter, who is so low on the socio-economical hierarchy that she doesn't even get her own name, is not only allowed to behave similarly to Asha, but her sexual freedom is never questioned or criticised either. I honestly think that their most problematic issues come from feelings of ethnic superiority, not a personal vendetta against women.
So, I find it disappointing and lazy that we haven't gotten any female spaces in the faith of the drowned god. I remember someone mentioning on a Tumblr post that on one of the asoiaf based video games drowned priestesses were a thing. Sadly I have never played any of the video games and I can't find any further sources for this so I don't know if I should trust that. But! I like that idea. Drowned priests are restless; they have no home and are made to basically pilgrim their life away; they travel around the islands and also accompany the men on raids. I think it would be cool if the priestesses of the drowned god had a more stable role in ironborn society. During the age of heroes we had salt and rock kings and in a way I could see the drowned priestesses as the rock to the drowned priests salt but with less authority.
Maesters are still somewhat recent in the Iron Islands and I don't think that Septas would have been appreciated by most ironborn women given their teachings and expectations around gender norms so I like believing that priestesses of the drowned god could occupy that space as educators of children and healers. History and religion seemed to be tied together in ironborn culture and their religion at least passed down orally so I can imagine them acting somewhat similar to mande jèli but with more of a focus on religion and less importance on the overall politics. I can also imagine them performing less important rites, like weddings, coming of age ceremonies or maybe fertility related acts. So basically a mixture between Maester and Septa with a lesser standing to their male counterparts.
Rafts as beds
Drowned priests, who have no homes, should sleep on rafts on nights that are more or less calm because that is a magical experience that I think everyone should go through at least once in their life but it's also fitting to their entire suffering theme because you will freeze to death and get a cold.
Dhows
I learnt how to row, sail, fish and use the night sky as a map before I learned how to ride a bike and my personal nitpicking issue with the world building in asoiaf is the nautical terms used. What do you mean longships and galleys that have decks and cabins????? Even if they have two levels of rowers (and most of the described ones don't) this rarely makes sense!
And you know what? I'm not even going to take my time to give them accurate Viking-like ships. In my head, they travel on dhows. "Dhow" is a generic term to refer to certain types of sailing boats that are mostly used around the Indian Ocean and I am in love with them.
They are precious to me and they allow me more variety when imagining the different ships mentioned in relation to the ironborn characters.
Sea Bitch for example looks more like a beden to me than like a typical Viking longship
but I can still imagine smaller, simpler looking galleys when needed, like a Dhoni. They can carry quite a lot of heavy stuff so they are usually good for trading (and probably raiding) too.
If I recall correctly, the Iron fleet has been identified by the text as some hybrid between dromonds and longships and I can be content with that definition. Personally I picture them more like Byzantine dromonds with a deck, cabins and more than one set of rowers.
Colloquialisms
I have always perceived colloquialisms as a subtle type of resistance to colonial and imperial forces, so I assume that the less integrated and maybe more separatist parts of Westeros (such as the Iron Islands, Dorne and maybe The North) would probably have a wider range of colloquialism as region based expressions. This is difficult to convey in fanworks of any sort and I can't think of any time I've made it noticeable in any of my fanworks but I like thinking about it. This could include idioms related to religious or geographical lore or more ambitious terms stemming from perhaps a former language spoken in the region or words taken and adapted from places they have sailed to, like the Summer Islands.
#I think many of my issues with this fandom could have been solved if I had become an ironborn supremacist in the same spirit as the#t@rgnation/st@rk stans;#don't know how to tag this. this isn't about any character in particular. I'm just saying stuff because I no longer give one tenth of a f#speaking#asoiaf
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I read through all your posts about Alysanne Targaryen as Maegor's daughter and am now in a rabbit hole. Thank you. I've been thinking about Maegor's wives and which one of Henry VIII's wives they represent. Ceryse is Cathrine of Aragon and Alys is Anne Boleyn. The others are hard to pin for me since there isn't a lot. What do you think? Would Maegor's reign have been more interesting if his marriages had more similarities to those of Henry VIII?
I think this is where we run into a number of problems regarding the way GRRM wrote Fire & Blood specifically and the way he setup Westeros more generally.
For one, the fairly homogenized nature of southron culture as well as the oversimplification of religious institutions and history means you can't quite get the same dynamism as from real life European history, with its dizzying array of languages, cultures, cuisines, fashions, etc., to mention nothing of the then-ongoing Protestant Reformation. I suppose GRRM could have had Maegor convert to the Old Gods a la Julian (II) the Apostate or the Drowned God (you just know the Ironborn are the one race on the surface of Planetos that would say King Maegor the Good with a completely straight face) or even R'hllor, which would be the best choice in terms of worldbuilding opportunities in my opinion.
Moving on, we run into a handful of problems with Maegor specifically, one of them being the length of his reign. Look, while I can't deny Maegor ruling for 6 years and 66 days is incredibly cheeky, it also isn't anywhere close to Henry VIII's 36 years as king. With so little room timeline-wise, there isn't a lot of flexibility when it comes to telling new stories and fleshing out preexisting ones and all that is before you factor in Maegor himself.
I won't hold back. For all GRRM's talk of moral ambiguity, the human heart in conflict with itself, good men who were bad kings and bad men who were good kings, etc., his Targaryen monarchs are, for the most part, numbingly one-note. Aegon I is a literal enigma, Aenys is weak, Maegor cruel, Viserys I a party animal, Aegon II and Rhaenyra mirror-images of each other in their disqualifying vices, etc. As I've written before with my post reimagining Maegor as more of a Ivan (IV) the Terrible figure there was room to make him a genuinely controversial figure of historiography but instead GRRM doubled down on sensationalism and apathy-inducing slasher porn for lack of a better word. The fact Maegor is also the first and last of Visenya's line just adds more salt to the wound but that's part of GRRM's more general (and for me personally, vexing) habit of keeping family trees incredibly small.
(I do recall another alternative someone once brought up to the late Steven Attewell. Namely, turning Maegor into the Westerosi version of Macbeth by way of Der Untergang.)
This brings me to my semifinal point. GRRM didn't have to write Fire & Blood as Procopius' Secret History on steroids with a dash of Suetonius' Lives of Twelve Caesars and I, Claudius (the entire Saera episode is practically lifted wholesale from the scandal that envelops Augustus' daughter, Julia) but he did, which is doubly disappointing because not only does the final product suck quality-wise as a result but also because there were so many other avenues available to him.
He could have written Fire & Blood as a proper history (with less focus on the sex lives of teenage girls for one) or as a mirror for princes or as a dialogue between two characters or even as a character study. You can even see GRRM struggling with the constraints imposed by his use of Gyldayn in certain sections like the death of Maelor and the entire Hour of the Wolf episode, where you get reams of dialogue and characterization as well as more traditional narrative trappings like build-up, mood setting, etc.
Now, to answer your actual question (lol), I don't think any of Henry VIII's other wives map well onto Maegor's. Tyanna is, more or less, his female counterpart in terms of cruelty and zero redeeming features and entirely a fantasy construct. Elinor and Jeyne are both married to Maegor for only a year (with poor Jeyne dying in childbirth because Jeyne Westerlings, like the Brackens, Peakes, and Florents, cannot catch a break in Westeros) and before said marriage takes place neither appears on the page. As for Rhaena, well, credit where its due, she was a rare (and unexpected) highlight of Fire & Blood.
Thanks for the question, anon
#maegor the cruel#house targaryen#asoiaf criticism#asoiaf meta#valyrianscrolls#asoiaf#asoiaf themes#maegor targaryen#fire and blood#volume 1
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what are your asoiaf culture/race headcanons?
ooo im siberian starks truther forever, or just general indigenous arctic circle north. general aesthetics of slav/kievan rus. like kokoshnik ushanka and ryasna are canon to me. harsh, stilted syllables like in russian.
the riverlands is the balkans + ireland to me for sure, cat is so irish to me. i think of like south slav folk costume for them :) lots of ribbons and embroidery and intricate braiding. lilting accent
i like east asian targs :) but also like, they just arent any earthen race to me. hate when people are like "erm they cant be coloured cos they have purple eyes and silver hair?" and its like do white people have purple eyes and silver hair??????
the dornish are a mix of indian subcontinent+west asia+sephardic/mizrahi jewish+palestine+turkish+arab. the melting pot of westeros! like the daynes are jewish to me, and the rhoynar are arab/turk/'moorish'. yronwoods are white latines. sea of dorne/narrow sea evokes the mediterannean :) dornish is described as melodic and drawling, def lots of rolled Rs
stormlands is very german+eastern europe. maybe im jsut thinking of oktoberfest but i always think of them bundled up. lots of headdresses. harsh accent.
vale of arryn is very anglo to me. french/english/swiss/etc. yodelling on the mountains. sweet and sing-song accent.
westerlands is italy to me cos i like thinking of the borgias and lannisters. lannisport gives off SUCH florence/venice vibes.
the reach is again quite meditteranean to me. maybe its the wine? but i hc the tyrells as black, i think the dynamic of "upjumped stewards" compared to the "blue-blooded" hightowers, florents, etc is interesting. its why i also hc the manderlys as black, since they're from the reach :)
iron islands... obviously norse/viking, but i like pasifika headcanons too. i like asha with moko kauae and i just love if the ironborn have cultural tattooing practices. this is lessened by how they do not at all have a pacific climate lol.
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Empathy for Euron
I'm not looking for excuses for Euron, but even someone so wholly villainous as Euron has a certain tragic humanity to his character. TWOW spoilers included.
It sounds like Euron was born so psychically powerful so young, but was surrounded by a culture that only recognized literal, physical strength. He had some kind of ability to see some kind of greater picture, to recognize that out there, somewhere, there was the ability to “fly,” but everyone around him is lockstep in this smallminded, delusional ideal of the old way, which is obviously going to doom them.
So he never had any guidance. It’s Bran without Jojen to mentor him, Varamyr without Haggon. We see from Varamyr how totally alienating these kinds of powers are—even though Varamyr uses them to become an utter piece of shit, a lot of it comes from his acute awareness of how much his existence separates him from the society around him. Even with guidance Bran is still warging Hodor to try to pretend to be someone else, he’s still staying in Summer for days at a time to escape his existence as a physically weak skinchanger.
And Euron isn’t just lacking a mentor, he’s lacking anyone who even recognizes what he’s experiencing. He blasphemes against god, killing Harlon, who is in some ways parallel to Euron, also sick, also silently suffering for the unwillingness of the Ironborn to extend empathy past strength. Killing Harlon is like killing himself, Harlon begs him, (to what? stop? continue? he’s not any more sure that he wants to live than Euron is) and immediately afterward, Euron himself is prepared to die, begging god to kill him because even that would be proof that he’s not alone, not the only person who is attuned to these senses. Instead, Euron lives. He’s not struck down—and so he is truly alone. On Pyke, only the gods could relate to the experience Euron is having, and even they won’t answer him.
Eventually Euron leaves, and now, separated from the Ironborn, he lives an empty, macabre replica of their ideals. He rules with absolute authority a ship of mutes, as lockstep with his goals as the Greyjoys were with Balon’s. He’s the perfect pirate but it’s not the plunder he craves—that joy is empty for him. It’s the prayer he that he really wants, the only recognition that the sole, lonely god in the world could ever ask for.
Finally he returns home, killing his brother and stepping into his role, the perfect ideal imitation of what Balon could have been. He recognizes the illusion the Ironborn need. But in private, to his family, he’s still searching for an equal. He wants to invite Victarion into his world—he’s suddenly found a substance that lets average people see the way Euron has been seeing this whole time. But Vic still won’t have it, so Euron decides to forcibly create a brother that understands him. If Vic won’t take the leap voluntarily, Euron will push Aeron—which is cruel, but it is pitiful, too, because he even now he wants someone to know what it's like to see like he does, even now he wants someone to fly with him.
Obviously Euron is still a maniac and a madman but... you can also imagine how lonely he must have always felt, how even his nihilism is tragic—if he thinks himself a god, and the gods are dead, then he knows he is so, so alone.
That said. This excuses nothing and leaves plenty unexplained, too.
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