current designs for the team!! this took a lot longer than i wanted but it's so nice to finally see them in one spot!

girl the 13x21 sam jugular removal scene makes me tooooo insane

season 14 would've been the perfect time to make destiel canon, it even had an episode of the guys getting into and looking through Dean's mind. 14x20 could've ended w/ Cas going to the Empty and then develop the relationship in s15, but instead they decided to kill jack twice in the same season, undo all of dean's character development in the end and also ruin deancas' bond... i mean, i find it hard to ship a guy with the man that tried to kill his son twice and didn't even apologize for it

i disagree for a couple reasons:

1. i think the ending of season 14/start of season 15 is some of the best the writings ever been on spn. moriah was an episode abt dean choosing to let go of the trauma inflicted on him by his upbringing with john and not allow himself to be blinded by the need for revenge like john was and to make the conscious choice to start to move forward with his new family.

also i love the destiel divorce arc. it shifted the dynamic between those two characters in a way theyve never done before and it could only have happened as a result of something so monumentally awful as losing a child. i think it was the thing that finally allowed cas to truly see dean as a flawed man as well as the thing that fundamentally shifted his entire life and worldview. and it was good for them! it meant cas finally grew some backbone and dean was able to be more emotionally vulnerable than weve ever seen him.

anyway obviously the last few episodes of season 15 really let down everything theyd been building. imo jack deciding to turn himself into a bomb in order to get dean (and sam but really dean) to forgive him should have been the final wake up call for dean and allowed him to see what his parenting has done to their child. and that should have been the catalyst for beating chuck. there should have been an apology to jack from dean and it rly sucks that there wasnt bc i too would have liked their to be a resolution to the jack/dean stuff before the confession and i do think that would have made more sense but oh well, supernatural is bad and i just choose to ignore the finale and pretend that the trajectory of s14 was ongoing.

2. i also really dont want to see what the writers of the cws supernatural think a compelling gay relationship looks like. if they had got together on screen i would have wanted it to be in the last few scenes of the last episode. i think if they tried to write dean and cas in an actual relationship it would have been Bad and boring and homophobic and not in a fun way

anyway i guess what im saying is for me personally the end of s14 start of s15 was as close to perfect as supernatural is able to get and i would much rather they concluded the arcs in a way that it felt like they were going to than have different ones. hope that made sense!

i am very basic so im a dean girl but i would very much like to hear your argument for being a sam girl, perhaps i can be radicalized

first off being a dean girl is NOT basic it is actually the more sane option and i respect you for making the right choice. second of all you’ve opened an entire can of worms and i’m about to write a gotdam essay

a lot of my love for sam comes from being a crazy 15 year old while watching the early seasons because i’ve always enjoyed watching characters who seem sweet and nice go crazy and just barrel headfirst into moral ambiguity. i think it’s sexy of them and i think more characters should do it. however i think the main reason i’m STILL a sam girl is i really loved watching sam try to navigate his guilt and trauma after all of that, and that overcoming what happened to him is so core to every single thing he does from like, season 6 onward. season 7 is the most obviously about this, but it’s also in him taking on the trials in an attempt to purify himself in s8, in his inability to forgive dean for letting gadreel in in s9, in him having to face lucifer again and again (even though it often wasnt handled well) and each time shrinking, flinching, ending up on his knees, pressing himself against walls, but ultimately standing up to him every single time, in him being the first to reach out to jack the moment he saw jack struggling with the exact same fear of his own powers and the idea that he might be inherently evil and raising jack out of that idea into the pure hope and kindness that both jack AND sam embody by the end of the series. and beyond that it’s in him refusing to cut his hair until season 9 it’s in him watching the food he puts in his body it’s in him hoping and praying to god until season 11 because he needs there to be a greater power in all of this who still believes in him. EVERYTHING that exists within sam winchester post-5 is about trauma and the way it brings him down so effortlessly between s7-8 and the very slow process of healing from it from that point on (ironically started only after dean said yes to gadreel for him and sam realized he was worth more than that)

and at the end of it all he’s kinder and gentler than he ever was at the beginning. in s1-4 he was focused so completely on himself, on his own anger and mission until all of that came back to bite him, and the guilt from all of that tied itself to everything he suffered in hell in his mind to the point where he was so ready to throw himself away at the end of s8, and then, somehow, at the end of everything, he is composed of light and heart and warmth. he is the first one to teach jack compassion after his mother. he is the sole source of optimism in so much of s15. that fuckin..doctor who quote that’s like “all that pain and misery and loneliness and it just made him kind” that’s sam winchester. the way he took his destiny as hell’s perfect soldier, the boy king, lucifer’s true vessel, and ended up becoming the one thing standing between every demon in hell and the throne AND becoming the leader of an entire generation of hunters....he embodies so much strength.

tldr sam’s entire character arc is about a person’s journey through real trauma and the light at the end of all of it. it’s about guilt, fear, consent, healing, relapse, acceptance, bodily autonomy, self-worth, and hope. and i LOVE dean -- he’s my favorite takedown of american masculinity, between the stuggle with/attempt to stop the cycle of his father’s abuse and conditioning, the repression, the anger, the grief, etc.. and the layers??? the writers very clearly put a lot of thought into what’s made dean who he is and how he can combat that in the later seasons. he is the most complex character on television and i say that with absolute confidence. i would be lying if i said i never considered becoming a dean girl. but sam’s themes resonate more with me so i think that’s why i always come back to him

1/3 Hello you, im writing to you cause you know alot more about SPN than I do and I'm currently rewatching s13-15 cause I dont really like Jack(hes ok) and I dont enjoy the show without caring for him and this was my attempt to remedy that andheres my question/problem: How and why can I accept that Sam, Dean, Cas considering Jack their son? A child is not just someone you care a bit about but (usually) a parents' center, love, light of their life, the person care most about in the world

2/3who they would die and kill for. And I just dont see where this comes from with Jack in the show. I just rewatched s14x08 and Dean calls their son to Lily Sunder comparing his loss to that of her own daugther and I just cringed. It's been less than 1,5 seasons that they even know Jack substract the time Dean spend distrusting Jack at the beginning s13, Jacks time away in the AltWorld and Dean being Michael and dont see where their relationship was authencially developed to

3/3 developed to justify and naturally reach a point of intensity and love that a father would feel for this. Someone he's grown to care about despite his initially rejection and would now (s15 maybe) consider part of his extened family, that I can buy, but early s14 equating their relationship to that of a parent/son is just something I cant buy whatsoever that takes me out of the story and feels so fake to me. Ugh whine whine :((( do you have some thoughts on that? sorry for spamming you:((

Hello you! It’s super okay, don’t apologize!! I’ve also had some trouble warming up to Jack, and I’m not sure I particularly care about him now, other than recognizing what the narrative is trying to do with him, the classic “the child becomes the parent” where they break the cycle of parental abuse that was done to them and learn to be better parents than their own were to them.

I think the crux of the matter is that Jack... is a child? But also isn’t a child? So it gets a bit confusing. If Jack looked like a child (okay it would be unpratical to have him fight wars in the body of a toddler, but, you know, something along the lines of the meatsuit Lilith was wearing when she was introduced?) it would probably be easier for us to accept what the narrative is telling us, I suppose.

I guess we should look at this through the lens of a child getting adopted at an ‘older’ age: I an not knowledgeable about this at all, but I imagine that when a pre-teen or teen gets adopted, there’s no immediate bonding like when you adopt a smaller child. Our brains, after all, are wired to make us bond deeply with babies and little children (that doesn’t mean we all have to automatically like children, we’re not just made of instinct, nowadays it’s also rare to find an abandoned baby only we can nurse back to health and protect. It’s more likely we do that with small animals lol) and it’s in fact proved scientifically that the whole array of phenomena that happens in the brain of a new mother also happens in parents (of any gender) that adopts a child. I doubt that the same happens, at least not in the same scale and speed, when you adopt an older child. Does that make the relationship between adoptive parent and child less deep or real? I don’t think so, it’s just a different dynamic.

The dynamic between Jack and his parents is also super different and definitely unique because of the fact of what he is and what circumstances are. Their relationship, especially the Dean-Jack one, is so complicated that feelings are just hightened by the whole extreme-ness of it. At least that’s how I read it - they go through such extreme feelings (massive fear at first because Son Of Lucifer(TM) then, you know, a rollercoaster) that even love, when it kicks in, is extremized.

So Jack is someone They Feel Very Strongly Towards since he was still in his mother’s belly! All that fear and horror (in Dean’s case there’s the added Cas’ betrayal thing when Kelly is pregnant, and of course Cas’ death when Jack is born, in Sam’s case it’s more a generic Lucifer thing which of course Sam feels more strongly than Dean due to his experiences with Lucifer) at some point turns into attachment. In Cas’ case, Cas had this supernatural extreme bond with the unborn baby, and Cas isn’t exactly the kind of guy that bonds to people lightly to begin with. Same goes for Dean, he feels everything strongly, and when he gets attached it’s intense.

In Cas’ case, he literally willingly gave his life away for Jack, and in Dean’s case... well, even trying to forgive him for Mary’s death is pretty big...

Finally, I think that they don’t have to have with Jack a relationship that you would recognize as a parental relationship. What counts is what they perceive as such. Dean, Sam and Cas all have a completely messed-up idea of what constitutes a parental relationship, you know? Cas didn’t even have one to begin with. Sam essentially had Dean, a literal child, and Dean and Sam both had an adult man who’d leave them alone and unsafe for weeks and when he’d show up he’d be drunk and violent. They don’t really have a healthy perception of parental love. They care about a kid? Bam. This must be how it feels to love a son! Which doesn’t mean it’s not real. It’s real to them, you know?

Let me know what you think! And don’t be afraid of messaging me about anything, I’m not bothered in fact it makes me happy!

im scared with where deancas is going and im actually really glad im not the only one, it was great to read your post on endgame destiel because i feel very strongly that way too. I want something to happen in the next couple of episodes. I hoped with the build up we saw in s12/13 was only back peddled because they want to leave destiel for the very endgame, but now they know s15 is the last and they knew that writing these episodes... i want to be optimistic, but have to be realistic too

The thing is, during the S12/13 escalation I was convinced Destiel was on the cards. The whole thing played out like a Victorian gothic romance novel. That ain’t subtext. That’s text. I maintain my stance that the mixtape was the point of no return on Destiel. They can’t come back from that. 

They HAVE hit the breaks since then, and it has constantly been a source of annoyance for me. Leaving me frustrated and confused that they would just stop like that. So yeah, we can float our theories and spec on the topic, but at the end of the day we have two directions left, either they pick up the pace and start making serious call backs to the S12/13 escalation right now and bringing that story to the front line again, or they keep it completely out of the main story, put all the focus on family instead of romance and leave the Destiel stuff out of the minds of the general audience. The second route could still give us something ambiguous at the very end, but it isn’t the grand love story I have always hoped for. I would still feel cheated if that happens. I just happen to think this is the more likely route. 

The next two episodes should give us an indication of which direction season 15 will follow. It all relies on several possible outcomes all related to Cas’s Empty Deal:

Option 1. The deal gets either no mention or only a very small mention and nothing happens in relation to it. Season 14 ends darkly, but not in a way that relates to Cas specifically. There is no obvious Destiel subtext, but Cas’s empty deal still looms over season 15.

This option means its all still up in the air but will leave me still feeling pretty negative over summer hiatus. By delaying the Empty deal completely until Season 15, there is still a potential for it to be triggered by romantic Destiel. The course could still change EVEN if Season 14 gives us nothing. I wouldn’t hold my breath, but I would still have a smidgen of hope that things could turn around.

Option 2. Cas goes to the Empty due to the deal triggering in the finale (as a Mary mirror this seems likely to me). It is NOT triggered by Destiel. It is triggered by Chuck’s return giving Jack a soul, fixing the current issues, and giving Cas the catharsis he has needed all series from his father that the boys got from John in 14x13. Cas finally being rid of his guilt over heaven and being able to finally free himself from heavens bonds could be enough to trigger the Empty deal if it is played alongside a happy Winchester family reunion.

In this option, Cas’s “permission to be happy” comes from Chuck, and him being accepted as a true Winchester brother. I think this option was foreshadowed in 14x18 especially with the MW carving on the table and the empty space still left under the SW:

If Cas’s deal is triggered this way, then I can’t see Destiel being a factor at all in Season 15 outside of the usual subtext. Simply because it takes away the one thing we all otherwise know to be as good as fact: that Cas is in love with Dean. For Cas to be truly happy, this option does imply that there is no unrequited (at least in his mind) love between him and Dean, and that he is completely at peace just being Dean’s brother. I feel this would be a huge disservice to Castiel as a character who has clearly IMO been written as in romantic love with Dean since at least season 6.

This option does however still give us something exciting - in terms of the poetic cyclic story telling currently being used in the show, having Season 15 start with Dean going to the Empty to rescue Cas in a reverse of Cas’s rescue of Dean in Season 4 is a beautiful potential plot that I would thoroughly enjoy. It doesn’t however mean Destiel - though I suppose there is a potential for them to explore even though it puts Cas’s feelings into question.

Option 3. Cas breaks or changes the terms of the Empty deal in some way - goes to the Empty of his own volition in order to save someone else or stop something.

This option is another potential cop out of the otherwise extremely tropey current deal. But writing it this way still does give us potential Destiel depending on Dean’s reaction and what happens next, because it once again leaves it open. It doesn’t confirm or deny Cas’s feelings for Dean. However it certainly wouldn’t rekindle my faith in endgame Destiel, but leave me even more curious as to what happens next.

Option 4. Cas goes to the Empty due to the elements in option 2 PLUS a confession or something from Dean giving us canon Destiel. 

Obviously this is the preferred option. In my opinion, the ONLY way that Cas would give himself permission to be TRULY happy and have the deal triggered in its current state would require the following things:

Jack’s soul is restored and he is back to normal

The Winchesters reunite as a strong family

Cas is TOLD that he is a part of that family unconditionally

Chuck returns and gives Cas the catharsis he needs to forgive himself for his actions in heaven

Dean confesses his love

(The final point being the trigger following all the previous elements taking place)

Do I think option 4 is likely? Not really. I just haven’t seen enough build up even in subtext for this to happen in the Season 14 finale. Do I think option 2 could happen without that final key point though? Yes.

At this stage I would honestly prefer options 1 or 3 taking place so I can at least still have hope in the ambiguity, but in my mind Cas is set up to go to the Empty at the end of the season. Mary’s death confirmed that to me, and the current treatment of Cas as well in the latest episode also seems to be setting up for his loss having a huge impact on the Winchesters. The story is being reset. Season 15 should start with Sam and Dean alone having lost everything, and then the course of the season leads them to fight for everything they desire. 

The reason I say this is that this season is all about asking the question “What do you want?” I want Season 15 to start with the Winchesters answering that question themselves, and then fighting to get it. 

Perhaps, if this does happen without the Destiel element at the end of season 14, there is STILL a small potential for Destiel to happen based on DEAN’S actions in Season 15, as Castiel’s return would be the answer to the question “what do you want?” when posed to Dean. I would still see it as a disservice to Castiel, but this would depend on how the show takes that potential story forward.

This is my spec anyway. Lets hope I’m wrong.

I haven't seen many people talk about it, but Temple was right, the Reds & Blues *do* treat Caboose with kid gloves. They see him as stupid and sometimes annoying, but ultimately harmless and sweet and childlike (most of the fans do too, as did the last two writers). Alpha was really the only person who ever treated him like an adult (he still found him annoying, but tbh I think a lot of that was just bluster), who acknowledged that he was capable and *dangerous*. Maybe Tex did too, but [1/3]

[2/3] they didn't have many on screen interactions.And at first Wash did, but after Alpha died no one did. Which I think wasactually on purpose in regards to Epsilon? Because even though Epsilonacknowledges Caboose's strength at the end of Season 10, he still treatsCaboose like the others do. Whereas Alpha was *always* aware of how destructiveCaboose could and would be, to the point where he'd hide behind him in diceysituations because he didn't want to get caught in Caboose's crossfire.

[3/3] I also thinkit's a little interesting that Temple was supposed to analogous to Alpha(although how tf did the Director know that Alpha would be enough like Templeto make the stalemate work again? Also the stalemate only really worked in thefirst place because Temple and Biff were friends so?? But I digress!), and hadalso been the only one since Alpha died to acknowledge that Caboose was anadult, and even though he was cruel about it he still treated Caboose like hedid everyone else.

Hello, Anon! It was so nice to see this in my inbox omg, and I’m sorry this took so long, life has been hectic and stressful! Not to mention, I wanted to take the time to ponder about this, and lol I’m definitely going to be rambling a lot woops.

You’re absolutely right, anon. We, the fans, and the writers and even the BGC tend to baby Caboose a lot. Mostly, at least in my case, because he tends to exude innocence and naivety and you just wanna protect him as much as possible from the real world. But just because he does seem innocent and naive, it doesn’t mean he’s a kid. Alpha was probably the one who treated him the most as an equal, though that’s probably mostly because he’s an asshole to everyone. (Though maybe not?? Remember that RVB 360 video with Church doing the Dad Knee to Junior and talking to him?? Maybe he does know the difference between how to treat a kid and an adult. Won’t stop him from complaining about the kid around said kid though lol.)

I’m not going to lie, anon, these asks gave me some kind of existential crisis as I tried to figure out what exactly is the difference between a kid and an adult, besides ages, and how we’re supposed to treat them, (because it seemed like part the argument that you were implying about how Caboose is an adult and doesn’t need to be treated like a child was that he’s dangerous, and that didn’t sit well with me tbh so here I am over-analyzing a simple ask yet again lmao im sorry if i was wrong or misinterpreted).

Anyway, I’m pretty sure the difference has do with cognitive development. Kids’ thought processes are pretty simple, and this is especially clear from their idea of morality. I’ve heard my younger siblings exclaim so many times that something was unfair, and y’know sometimes they were right, but other times they weren’t taking into consideration other circumstances that made it so the situation was fair. Not to mention, that they’re selfish, through no fault of their own. So far, in their minds, they can’t really manage to consider other people’s point of view, and unless they’re taught differently and actually make the effort, that won’t change. And that’s where the difference between how adults are supposed to treat kids and other adults comes in. Adults, esp their guardians, are supposed to help them grow. They are there to encourage more complex thought processes and and help them walk through the logic if necessary. And they are there to offer advice bc adults have so much more life experience then kids do.

Caboose isn’t really like a kid at all. A lot of people might mistake the things he says as him being simple-minded but really, he just sees things differently from others and processes it differently. And that of course, seems weird and probably child-like to the others because by now they’re so used to how ‘normal’ adult minds work. And like, there are so many examples of posts on this site of adults or teenagers being surprised or caught off-guard by something a kid said or did, so I guess when the BGC encountered Caboose and had that happen to them, they kind of went Caboose = child.

Not to mention, Caboose is easily one of the most caring and empathetic characters on the show??? He loves his friends so much, esp Church, and would do anything for them. (Good examples of Caboose having complex thought processes and empathy: his speech to Tucker in s12 about how he shouldn’t be mad at Church, that episode of s14 ‘Caboose’s Guide to Making Friends’ or whatever it was called, s8 in general when he kept wanting to help Epsilon esp the end of s8. ‘But they’ll die!’ he says. He is completely aware of the possible consequences of what’s happening. He isn’t dumb.)

Anyway, back to the rest of the asks! About them treating Caboose with kid’s gloves.... I waffle between saying you’re absolutely right and going “Weeeellll....”. Because Temple says that right before he reveals that Church really is truly dead and Tucker is trying to stop him from saying it. And you’re right. Caboose shouldn’t have that hidden from him. He’s fully capable of hearing the truth and starting to process the grief. But the thing is, isn’t that what he was already doing in the beginning of s15? Before Temple sent them that corrupted message and gave him hope again? (Not to mention, in the grand scheme of things it probably isn’t that weird to thing Church could’ve honestly come back, he’s died and come back so many times.) And, as a friend, wouldn’t you want to do anything to protect your friend from getting hurt or from grief? Especially when the news is coming from your enemy? Of course Tucker wanted to stop Temple from revealing the truth like that. And it kind of happened in a tense moment. And Tucker hadn’t really been at his best emotionally all season (which believe me, I’m kind of displeased with :/    s15 Tucker is not my Tucker.) (The Blood Gulch Chronicles was probably the best in terms of Tucker treating Caboose like an equal. They definitely had sibling bond there, annoying each other and trying to get Dad’s Church’s attention XD)

I think Wash is pretty good about Caboose though. I still remember that s11 speech when he validated Caboose’s feelings of loss and asked for forgiveness for not being a better leader when he really needed him. I’d probably need to re-watch the seasons for myself in order to really confirm if they treat him like a child constantly that can’t comprehend what’s happening. It’s hard to tell for sure, because the writers kind of fuck that up from time to time, making Caboose seem dumber and the others reacting more harshly to it. Though where do we draw the line of them baby-ing him and caring for him? Like when Sarge let’s Caboose push the button in s3 and calls him a ‘litle rascal’ (i think?), is Sarge treating him like a kid there or just engaging in his enthusiasm? Or in s7 and s8 whenever they leave Caboose behind out of the fights, are they doing it to stop him from accidentally hurting others or because they genuinely think he’d be useless in the fight? Whenever they decide not to explain something to him, are they doing it because they think it’s a waste of time to explain something Caboose won’t understand anyway? (Personally, whenever Caboose misunderstands what someone explained to him, I think it has to do with a lack of concentration than just not being able to comprehend what they’re telling him. He probably has a tendency to drift. And he can concentrate when it’s important, so I think he’s okay) There are probably more examples, but I can’t think of more, I really do need to do a rewatch goddamn.

One last thing! About how Temple is analogous to Church and the stalemate. Correct me if I’m wrong (and I might seriously be, I watched s15 with friends, so I probably missed a good quarter of information), but isn’t the similarities between the two groups completely coincidental? Because Alpha wasn’t implanted and put into Blood Gulch until after Project Freelancer was destroyed, and Temple and the others were in an simulation outpost while Freelancer was still running, evidenced by Carolina and Tex showing up. And I don’t think it would be too hard for them to purposefully create a stalemate? The Counselor probably evaluated them and interviewed them, and learnt that Temple and Bif were friends, and just created the teams in such a way that they would either more or less take charge of their respective teams or be too lazy to fight, creating a stalemate between the two. Also I’m pretty sure Florida created the Blood Gulch teams on his own??? so it really is a coincidence. A freak-ish one for sure, and obviously kind of contrived because it was for plot, but it isn’t that bad.

Also, totally jumping off that one tiny thing you said about how Temple and Alpha were the ones to treat Caboose like an adult. First, I’m about 99% sure the reason why that’s the case if because they’re both huge assholes omg nothing will stop them from treating you like a dumbass. And, this is totally a more personal thought process that I’m just shoving at you, even though me and my friend spent most of our watch saying things like “Alpha would never do that!”, looking back on it, I think Alpha would. Keep in mind, Alpha was an AI created by Leonard Church. A man that when his wife died and he had been powerless to stop it, started torturing his own mind in the hope’s of one day creating an AI of his wife, and performing psychological experiments with the people under his command, who he is supposed to guide and train, and on his own daughter. If there had been a clear cause for what had happened, like in the case of Bif’s death, he probably would’ve gone absolutely insane in his quest for vengeance, like Temple did. And Alpha would’ve done the same, at least, probably before he had been tortured and fragmented. Afterwards, he didn’t really have much emotions or energy to bother with vengeance plots.

Anyway, thank you for coming to my inbox! I hope you enjoyed this read through lmao, though it’s probably filled with stuff you already know and understand! Also looking back on it, I realize I’m all over the place about whether the BGC treat Caboose like a kid woops. I might do a rewatch just for this lol.